Latest / Conspiracy! The Show / Welcome to Jonestown Pt. 2 - Operation Paperclip

Transcript

Welcome to Jonestown Pt. 2 - Operation Paperclip · Conspiracy! The Show

0:09
Speaker 1: De Win in trance spite de Troth. I'm a checkups.
0:30
Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy The Show. I'm Adam Todd Brown.
0:35
Speaker 2: Who are you?
0:36
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm Pizzicasi. I don't have an O in front
0:39
Speaker 1: of my name. I don't know why I said that,
0:41
Speaker 1: but it made me sound like I have an O
0:42
Speaker 1: apostrophe in front of my name. So my name's Pizza.
0:47
Speaker 2: I'm wearing an eyepatch right now. I'm sure people listening
0:50
Speaker 2: at home can tell I got lots of I got
0:52
Speaker 2: lots of pirate energy in this recording. Today. I'm fine.
0:58
Speaker 2: I just woke up with an irritated Well how's it going, Fizza.
1:01
Speaker 1: I'm good. I don't have an eyepatch on today, But
1:05
Speaker 1: you never know, you know, life is a surprise party.
1:08
Speaker 2: It sure is. Case in point. I woke up today
1:10
Speaker 2: and needed an eyepatch. So here we are. We're talking
1:15
Speaker 2: about Jonestown again, as we have been for the past
1:19
Speaker 2: three weeks, but it kind of tangentially this week, just
1:23
Speaker 2: like last week. Last week we did a bonus episode.
1:27
Speaker 2: We talked about a horrifying wing of the Japanese military
1:32
Speaker 2: called Unit seven three one. They were notorious for two things,
1:38
Speaker 2: One really grotesque medical experiments conducted on living human subjects,
1:44
Speaker 2: and two the way the US protected them and integrated
1:48
Speaker 2: their research into our own military work. Meanwhile, Russia, whatever
1:54
Speaker 2: of that group they caught, they tried all of them
1:57
Speaker 2: as the war criminals that they were. However, Yeah, but
2:01
Speaker 2: we didn't. We decided not to because we didn't want
2:05
Speaker 2: to miss out on whatever groundbreaking medical discoveries they might
2:09
Speaker 2: have made. While they were hacking people's arm off and
2:12
Speaker 2: sewing it to the other side of their body and whatnot.
2:15
Speaker 1: They were infecting prisoners of war with syphilis and then
2:19
Speaker 1: cutting their bodies open to see what's going on in there.
2:21
Speaker 1: Were they were these POWs still alive during.
2:24
Speaker 2: This, Yes, yes, and there was no anesthetic used. They
2:29
Speaker 2: would cruel. Oh, it's it's beyond cruel. We're talking about
2:33
Speaker 2: a similar thing this week, and fortunately we're not going
2:36
Speaker 2: through as many of the horrifying details as we did
2:40
Speaker 2: last week. Actually, none of the horrifying details. So if
2:44
Speaker 2: you're not a subscriber and you want to be seriously
2:49
Speaker 2: grossed out, listen to last week's bonus episode about Unit
2:53
Speaker 2: seven three one. Yeah, syphilis was a big thing with them.
2:57
Speaker 2: They they loved studying syphilis. They would make people have
3:02
Speaker 2: sex to infect each other with syphilis.
3:05
Speaker 1: That's how they gave them syphilis. Yes, so there it
3:09
Speaker 1: was like you know, sexual assault as well.
3:13
Speaker 2: Well, it was a it was a concentration camp basically.
3:17
Speaker 1: Like this human rights violations.
3:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was during World War two, so it was
3:22
Speaker 2: the same thing the Nazis were getting up to basically,
3:25
Speaker 2: but with Unit seven three one it was more Russian
3:29
Speaker 2: and American POWs and Chinese people. Of course, they were
3:34
Speaker 2: very brutal to China during World War two. Yeah, they
3:38
Speaker 2: would cut people open after they were infected with syphilis
3:42
Speaker 2: just to see what the disease does to the inside
3:45
Speaker 2: of the body. It would usually end in that person
3:48
Speaker 2: dying because you can't hardly be cut open with no
3:51
Speaker 2: anesthesia without any side effects.
3:54
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, the US, I think has a
3:58
Speaker 1: habit of overlooking the ethical questions and issues to you know,
4:04
Speaker 1: like the science. Didn't want to lose that.
4:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's what we did with Yeah, we did
4:10
Speaker 2: with Unit seven three one. We decided, you know, they
4:14
Speaker 2: did all this research, We're not just going to let
4:16
Speaker 2: that research go to waste. So instead of trying them
4:19
Speaker 2: as war criminals. We brought them to the United States
4:22
Speaker 2: so they could help us develop biological weapons and things
4:26
Speaker 2: of the sort. And it seems like it might not
4:29
Speaker 2: be that related to Jonestown, but it is because it
4:33
Speaker 2: goes a long way toward explaining what America's mindset was
4:38
Speaker 2: like for at least a couple decades after World War Two.
4:44
Speaker 1: It's wild how history has written it as if the
4:46
Speaker 1: global community was completely horrified by the things that Germany
4:50
Speaker 1: and Japan were getting up to during World War Two,
4:53
Speaker 1: but the US was not. You know, that was that's
4:56
Speaker 1: that's the mask they had to wear to you know,
4:59
Speaker 1: to not people riled up.
5:01
Speaker 2: We had to pretend we were angry. And I'm sure
5:04
Speaker 2: there I'm not saying everyone in the United States was
5:09
Speaker 2: not unhappy with World War Two, but it's pretty clear
5:12
Speaker 2: and the way we acted after World War Two that
5:15
Speaker 2: we didn't so much mind the atrocities that happened during
5:19
Speaker 2: that conflict.
5:21
Speaker 1: And to clarify, we were speaking of our government.
5:26
Speaker 2: Right, not we as in me and physical we the
5:30
Speaker 2: people Americans in general. Yeah, this is actually where the
5:35
Speaker 2: was Jonestown of CIA Medical Experiment book begins is with
5:39
Speaker 2: another version of Unit seven three one or another version
5:44
Speaker 2: of what we did with Unit seven three one, which
5:47
Speaker 2: is Operation paper Clip, where we did the exact same thing.
5:51
Speaker 2: The people that were conducting insane human experiments and biological
5:56
Speaker 2: weapons testing, those were all scientists and research as we
5:59
Speaker 2: decided we wanted, and with Operation paper Clip instead of
6:03
Speaker 2: Japanese military, it was all Nazis and it was way
6:06
Speaker 2: way more like sixteen hundred. That's a lot of Nazis
6:09
Speaker 2: to let into the country at once, especially if you're
6:11
Speaker 2: letting them all into the government at once. Yeah, kind
6:15
Speaker 2: of alarming, but it's definitely a thing that happened, and.
6:18
Speaker 1: They definitely couldn't you know. That wasn't the story that
6:21
Speaker 1: the pr put out.
6:22
Speaker 2: No, they made it seem like there were no Nazis.
6:28
Speaker 2: But we'll get to it. They're all Nazis, like of
6:30
Speaker 2: course they were, like they're bringing over researchers from Germany
6:34
Speaker 2: during World War Two, Like, yeah, there's gonna be some
6:37
Speaker 2: intellectuals who disagree with the Nazis, but it's impossible to
6:40
Speaker 2: bring sixteen hundred people over and not have them end
6:43
Speaker 2: up being Nazis.
6:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's something's going to be Statistically, there's going to
6:48
Speaker 1: be some at least sympathizers, right, the very least sympathizers.
6:53
Speaker 2: And we end up bringing over way worse than sympathizers,
6:56
Speaker 2: like we bring over actual war criminals. And the way
6:59
Speaker 2: it happens, as the story goes at least, is in
7:03
Speaker 2: early nineteen forty three, Germany was really confident that they
7:07
Speaker 2: were going to lose World War two, so to shore
7:10
Speaker 2: up their defenses, they decided to bring four thousand scientists, engineers,
7:16
Speaker 2: and technicians back from war so they could apply their
7:20
Speaker 2: expertise to military projects. So now, Hitler loves intellectuals. When
7:27
Speaker 2: Nazi Germany was first getting off the ground, that's one
7:30
Speaker 2: of the first things they did was round up intellectuals
7:34
Speaker 2: and people who would be smart enough to make a
7:36
Speaker 2: valid argument in public about why you shouldn't exterminate six
7:42
Speaker 2: million Jews from German society so dangerous.
7:46
Speaker 1: Very now that they're of use to him, you know,
7:49
Speaker 1: when they're a liability to his agenda, of course, you know,
7:52
Speaker 1: round them up. But yeah, whatever is convenient for his
7:56
Speaker 1: I mean, he just you know, he's that type of dude.
7:59
Speaker 2: And even if you weren't a Nazi sympathizer, if you're
8:03
Speaker 2: one of these four thousand researchers and scientists. You were
8:06
Speaker 2: probably happy with this development because what he had done
8:09
Speaker 2: up to this point was make a lot of these
8:12
Speaker 2: people just go fight on the front lines in the
8:15
Speaker 2: war like usual cannon fodder soldiers. So they were probably
8:20
Speaker 2: happy to come back at least. And after the Nazis
8:25
Speaker 2: round these scientists up, they start screening them to decide
8:29
Speaker 2: who is ideologically aligned with them and politically aligned and
8:34
Speaker 2: who's going to be who's not going to present a problem.
8:38
Speaker 2: So that right there tells you that the people we
8:41
Speaker 2: brought over were all Nazis, because that's the group we
8:45
Speaker 2: end up pulling from.
8:46
Speaker 1: They were screened by Nazis to be searching for Nazis.
8:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, Nazis looking for smart Nazis.
8:54
Speaker 1: And that's the pool that we pulled from.
8:56
Speaker 2: Right What they end up doing is they they green
9:00
Speaker 2: each one to make sure they're they're Nazi enough, and
9:04
Speaker 2: then those names were added to what became known as
9:07
Speaker 2: the Osenberg List, which was named after the Nazi scum
9:11
Speaker 2: responsible for assembling it.
9:15
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say how wild it is that
9:17
Speaker 1: like the pieces of this list ended up in toilet
9:20
Speaker 1: at Bonn University in Germany in nineteen forty five where
9:23
Speaker 1: a lab technician finds it and forwards it onto British
9:27
Speaker 1: and American intelligence. Like that's some movie type of stuff.
9:31
Speaker 2: What was this list written on that pieces of it
9:36
Speaker 2: were found in a toilet and they were still able
9:38
Speaker 2: to recover it? I mean, I guess if it's just
9:41
Speaker 2: floating on the surface.
9:42
Speaker 1: But well, it's like, also, how could they you know,
9:44
Speaker 1: it's crazy that they recognized it as an important document?
9:48
Speaker 1: Was it inside the toilet?
9:50
Speaker 2: Pieces of it were found stuffed in a toilet? Which
9:52
Speaker 2: I don't know. H my god, how do you even
9:54
Speaker 2: stuff something in a toilet? Like? Were they trying to
9:57
Speaker 2: get caught? Maybe? Huh?
9:59
Speaker 1: Okay? Were they trying to get rid of this list
10:01
Speaker 1: so they threw it in the toilet because they were
10:03
Speaker 1: trying to hide this list?
10:04
Speaker 2: Is that?
10:04
Speaker 1: What was which? Well going on?
10:07
Speaker 2: It seems like that, But that just leads me to
10:09
Speaker 2: another question, which is what was this list written on?
10:12
Speaker 2: Because if it's paper and you want to get rid
10:15
Speaker 2: of it, the easy answer is you set it on
10:18
Speaker 2: five er Yes, so this kind of implies that it
10:24
Speaker 2: was disposed of hastily or under duress of some sort. Yeah,
10:30
Speaker 2: because the backstory there, because this was nineteen forty five
10:34
Speaker 2: when it's discovered, So the war is really turning against
10:39
Speaker 2: the Nazis by this point. And it was found that
10:41
Speaker 2: Bond University is in Germany, so maybe maybe the Allies
10:46
Speaker 2: were closing in on Bond University at the time, who knows.
10:50
Speaker 2: But they found this list in the toilet, and the
10:53
Speaker 2: person who finds it forwards it to British and American
10:57
Speaker 2: intelligence and we decide that we wanted to find these
11:03
Speaker 2: scientists and interrogate them.
11:05
Speaker 1: That's it, that's it, right.
11:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did the same thing with serial killers in
11:10
Speaker 2: the seventies, instead of just throwing them in jail, put
11:14
Speaker 2: them in a room and talk to them and find
11:15
Speaker 2: out why serial killers become a thing, and it was
11:18
Speaker 2: very very productive. Meanwhile, the parallel there would be imagine
11:24
Speaker 2: if in the seventies when we went and interviewed serial killers,
11:29
Speaker 2: we came out of it the other end thinking we
11:33
Speaker 2: should be serial killers, like we should all that's the
11:36
Speaker 2: That's what that should be our thing going forward, is
11:39
Speaker 2: we should be serial killers. Because that's what happens with
11:42
Speaker 2: these interviews is at first they were just going to
11:46
Speaker 2: interview people. When that was the plan, it was called
11:48
Speaker 2: Operation overcast, except something happens during those interviews where the
11:55
Speaker 2: focus shifts from oh, we just want to interrogate these
11:59
Speaker 2: dudes and see what they know. The focus shifts to, oh,
12:03
Speaker 2: we need to round them up and get them to
12:06
Speaker 2: the United States so they can help us. And it
12:09
Speaker 2: was because they didn't want them to fall into the
12:11
Speaker 2: hands of Russia for one thing, but also we just
12:14
Speaker 2: whatever they told us in those interviews, we were like,
12:16
Speaker 2: sounds like something we can use.
12:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, So these US officials found some value in these
12:22
Speaker 1: scientists enough to overlook their political affiliation.
12:27
Speaker 2: Not just their political affiliation, but the things they had done.
12:31
Speaker 2: I guess by this point.
12:32
Speaker 1: Well, when your political affiliation is the Nazi Party, then
12:36
Speaker 1: you know, you just assume that horrors come with that.
12:42
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's hard to make the excuse that maybe
12:46
Speaker 2: they didn't know quite how bad the atrocities were by
12:49
Speaker 2: that point, because this was the end of the war.
12:51
Speaker 2: Like we knew as soon as we flung those concentration
12:55
Speaker 2: camp doors open, we knew how bad things were in
12:59
Speaker 2: no Azi Germany and just in Nazi occupied territory in general.
13:04
Speaker 2: Not to diminish the millions of other people who were
13:07
Speaker 2: killed by Nazis, which is actually a thing we'll talk
13:10
Speaker 2: about in a second. Yeah. But after they decided that
13:14
Speaker 2: that was the mission, that we needed to round up
13:17
Speaker 2: some of these Nazi scientists, then the project became Operation
13:21
Speaker 2: paper Clip, because when we identified one we wanted to
13:26
Speaker 2: bring over to the United States, we would attach a
13:28
Speaker 2: paper clip to their file.
13:31
Speaker 1: Subtle.
13:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, so simple, such an easy naming mechanism, And in
13:36
Speaker 2: total we end up bringing sixteen hundred, not necessarily all
13:43
Speaker 2: Nazi scientists, but mostly Nazi scientists.
13:47
Speaker 1: And their family members, and.
13:49
Speaker 2: Thirty seven hundred family members, and not just Nazi scientists,
13:53
Speaker 2: but like Nazi intelligence, like SS people like that, like
13:57
Speaker 2: the Hitler's Secret Police, so pretty much all the bad
14:03
Speaker 2: stuff about Germany except for concentration camps. And even then,
14:09
Speaker 2: as this jonestown thing goes on, it's questionable as to
14:12
Speaker 2: whether we maybe set up some some concentration camps too
14:16
Speaker 2: at one point, but everything Nazi Germany was doing, we
14:19
Speaker 2: were like, we want to do that. That sounds good
14:22
Speaker 2: to us, which is.
14:23
Speaker 1: Crazy, I mean, I guess, yeah, it's it's what was
14:26
Speaker 1: prioritized by the government, and the information was valued over
14:33
Speaker 1: the you know, ethics. Yeah, and I guess you know,
14:36
Speaker 1: it's you know, the mean, the research was done in
14:40
Speaker 1: a horrifying way. But then I guess you know, they
14:44
Speaker 1: just you know, wanted to just all disappear. Might as well,
14:48
Speaker 1: might as well take the information.
14:50
Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing. It saved us from having to
14:53
Speaker 2: cut off arms and sew them to different parts of
14:55
Speaker 2: the body and one of the other They would attack
15:00
Speaker 2: the esophagus directly to the intestines. They would remove people's stomachs,
15:04
Speaker 2: and it was pretty horrifying while they were alive. While
15:07
Speaker 2: they were alive, although I don't know how long you're
15:09
Speaker 2: going to survive that, but I.
15:11
Speaker 1: Mean hopefully not too long because it sounds fucking awful.
15:15
Speaker 2: It it was very awful, and Nazis were doing the
15:19
Speaker 2: same kind of stuff. We know that, and these were
15:22
Speaker 2: the scientists, and these were the ideas that we wanted
15:27
Speaker 2: to look into for our own and it it did
15:30
Speaker 2: keep us from having to do the really gruesome human experiments.
15:34
Speaker 2: But so what like, no one should be doing those
15:37
Speaker 2: human experiments. But also the mind controls stuff, there was
15:41
Speaker 2: a lot of that that we were interested in. And
15:44
Speaker 2: so obviously we try to keep this mostly a secret
15:48
Speaker 2: from the public. When it happens, and that secret lasted
15:52
Speaker 2: for about a year, and then the media catches on
15:56
Speaker 2: that we've brought all these scientists over and they start
15:59
Speaker 2: interviewing them in the media. Apparently, we didn't put any
16:03
Speaker 2: restrictions on these Nazi fucks when they came over here.
16:07
Speaker 2: We weren't like, don't talk to anybody. You stay in
16:10
Speaker 2: this room, you come out, you do science, you go
16:12
Speaker 2: back in that room. You don't fucking say a word
16:15
Speaker 2: to anybody, none of that. We just let them run
16:17
Speaker 2: around society, happy and free. And so they end up
16:22
Speaker 2: doing these interviews and the word is out that we
16:26
Speaker 2: brought all these scientists over. So now the American government
16:29
Speaker 2: goes into damage control mode and they're like, yeah, but
16:34
Speaker 2: we didn't bring any actual Nazis. When Harry Truman approved
16:39
Speaker 2: Operation paper Clip, one of the stipulations was that we
16:44
Speaker 2: don't bring any Nazis over. And one, since when is
16:47
Speaker 2: Harry Truman ever done anything wrong? And two we obviously
16:53
Speaker 2: ignored that, like there were some scientists we just needed
16:56
Speaker 2: and kids at home. Harry Truman is the only present
17:00
Speaker 2: to have ever launched a nuclear weapon, so he did
17:03
Speaker 2: that there.
17:03
Speaker 1: I mean again, their priorities were very clear whether they
17:07
Speaker 1: were transparent about them or not, which they were not.
17:12
Speaker 1: I mean they valued the information over how you know,
17:18
Speaker 1: what was done to get it.
17:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean in.
17:21
Speaker 1: A way, yeah, I guess. You know, it probably kept
17:24
Speaker 1: the monsters here from having to go or having being
17:27
Speaker 1: compelled to go and doing that sort of horrific type
17:31
Speaker 1: of research.
17:32
Speaker 2: But yeah, it kept them from doing it on behalf
17:37
Speaker 2: of our enemy, which almost as soon as the war
17:41
Speaker 2: was over, I think, even before the war was over,
17:43
Speaker 2: became Russia, and so it kept Russia from benefiting from
17:47
Speaker 2: all that. But also it seems like Russia didn't want
17:51
Speaker 2: to benefit from all of that, which really brings into
17:55
Speaker 2: question who were the actual good guys in World War Two?
18:00
Speaker 2: Was it really the United States? Because I don't think
18:03
Speaker 2: I mean I'm not alone in this assessment, but had
18:05
Speaker 2: Pearl Harbor not happened, I don't think the United States
18:08
Speaker 2: would have entered World War Two. We were just gonna
18:10
Speaker 2: let Hitler do what he wanted to do. That's not
18:12
Speaker 2: our part of the world.
18:14
Speaker 1: We sure were. Our government surely was until it got personal,
18:18
Speaker 1: until we took it personally and we're like, okay, now
18:21
Speaker 1: it's you know, now you're fucking with me.
18:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was once Japan attacked us, and like then
18:27
Speaker 2: it's street rules, like you can't just get attacked on
18:31
Speaker 2: American soil and not respond. So of course then we're
18:35
Speaker 2: going to get into World War two and let Russia
18:38
Speaker 2: know that we got nuclear weapons we can drop on
18:41
Speaker 2: them if they act up. I still think that that's
18:44
Speaker 2: one of the biggest scandals of World War two is
18:47
Speaker 2: did we need to drop that nuclear weapon? I don't
18:50
Speaker 2: think we did.
18:51
Speaker 1: No, I don't think so either, But I don't think so.
18:54
Speaker 1: There's better conflict resolution than dropping nuclear weapons in my opinion.
18:58
Speaker 2: Well, not just that. From a stratega standpoint, we didn't
19:01
Speaker 2: really need to. There was gonna Russia was invading Japan
19:06
Speaker 2: or was about to invade Japan, and Japan wasn't gonna win.
19:09
Speaker 2: That it was gonna be a long drawn out conflict.
19:11
Speaker 2: But Japan wasn't gonna win, and we had been fire
19:16
Speaker 2: bombing all of their cities up to that point, so
19:18
Speaker 2: this was just to them a different version of that.
19:21
Speaker 2: It was bigger and more spectacular and overkill. Yeah, it
19:25
Speaker 2: obviously killed more people, but they were like, Okay, we're
19:28
Speaker 2: down two more cities. That's that's not anything we can't
19:31
Speaker 2: recover from.
19:32
Speaker 1: Also, I think there was an element of wanting to
19:35
Speaker 1: test out their new quote unquote toy.
19:38
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you're not gonna build a nuclear weapon and
19:41
Speaker 2: not use it. And had they not done that, would
19:44
Speaker 2: aliens have visited Earth? Maybe not.
19:48
Speaker 1: They're like these fucks, like they're getting some technology and
19:51
Speaker 1: they don't have the level of consciousness or awareness to
19:54
Speaker 1: handle this. I mean, yeah, you're when you make a
19:58
Speaker 1: nuclear bomb and then you shortly after drop it.
20:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, despite the it might set the atmosphere on fire concern,
20:07
Speaker 2: you still drop it. That was one of the concerns
20:10
Speaker 2: science hasts had before that thing was detonated, was might
20:14
Speaker 2: set the sky on fire?
20:16
Speaker 1: Who was mostly killed civilians?
20:18
Speaker 2: Of course?
20:19
Speaker 1: How is that okay?
20:20
Speaker 2: I mean we do that now with sanctions, Like we'll
20:23
Speaker 2: slap sanctions on a country and act like it's the
20:27
Speaker 2: you know, more peaceful option. You know, we otherwise we're
20:30
Speaker 2: going to go to war and kill people. But in war,
20:33
Speaker 2: there's at least some rules in place about how it
20:38
Speaker 2: can impact civilians before it becomes just straight up war crimes.
20:42
Speaker 2: Sanctions directly impact the poorest people in those countries because
20:49
Speaker 2: they make it hard for any kind of especially the
20:52
Speaker 2: way we do sanctions the way we do them, if
20:55
Speaker 2: any country works with that country, we consider that a violation.
21:00
Speaker 2: So not only will we stop sending aid to these countries,
21:03
Speaker 2: every other country that wants to align with us will
21:07
Speaker 2: also stop helping them. And anyone who doesn't want to
21:09
Speaker 2: fall into our bad graces will not work with that country.
21:14
Speaker 2: And it ends up just killing poor people, and we
21:17
Speaker 2: act like it's the more peaceful way to go about it,
21:20
Speaker 2: when I think most poor people would much rather the
21:24
Speaker 2: United States bomb a weapons making facility on the outskirts
21:29
Speaker 2: of town then starve the entire population. But we're the
21:34
Speaker 2: United States. We like to starve people. So one of
21:37
Speaker 2: the best books you can read on this topic, which
21:40
Speaker 2: is Operation paper Clip, is Annie Jacobsen's book Operation paper Clip,
21:45
Speaker 2: The Secret intelligence program that brought Nazi scientists to America
21:50
Speaker 2: and heads Up. It is six hundred and twenty seven
21:53
Speaker 2: pages long. It's very, very lengthy, But if you're looking
21:56
Speaker 2: for something a little shorter, then we'll link you to
21:59
Speaker 2: a YouTube video where she gives a presentation about this
22:03
Speaker 2: particular part of Operation paper Clip, which is the notion
22:08
Speaker 2: that we didn't bring actual Nazis over. We just brought
22:13
Speaker 2: regular dudes from Germany who weren't Nazis. In the video,
22:18
Speaker 2: she runs through a few examples of people we brought over,
22:22
Speaker 2: and what's crazy is not only do we integrate these
22:26
Speaker 2: scientists into American life, in a lot of cases, we
22:30
Speaker 2: name awards after them that end up, in some cases
22:33
Speaker 2: are still being given out to this day. There's one
22:37
Speaker 2: point in this video where she ends up calling this
22:40
Speaker 2: institution that it's an American college I think that had
22:44
Speaker 2: been giving out this award every year, and she was like,
22:47
Speaker 2: do you not feel weird about giving out an award
22:50
Speaker 2: named after a former Nazi? And their response was, you know,
22:54
Speaker 2: no one's ever asked us that. How, Like, how the
22:57
Speaker 2: fuck that would be my first question? Well?
22:59
Speaker 1: Not, you don't want to know the answer, I guess.
23:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, But like, how hard is it to change the
23:03
Speaker 2: name of an award? I don't know. So some of
23:07
Speaker 2: the people she mentions in this video as having been
23:10
Speaker 2: brought over by the United States, Sigfried Kennemeier. That's how
23:14
Speaker 2: she pronounces his name. I don't know if it's niee Meyer.
23:17
Speaker 2: He was a subordinate of Hermann Goring, who was a
23:21
Speaker 2: very very bad person who was responsible for a lot
23:25
Speaker 2: of the treachery the Third Reich pulled off. He was
23:28
Speaker 2: one of the most powerful people in the Third Reich.
23:31
Speaker 1: Goring liked him a lot, called him my boy.
23:35
Speaker 2: My boy, except he probably said it in German, although
23:38
Speaker 2: I hope not. I hope he said it like Larry
23:40
Speaker 2: the Cable Guy or some shit.
23:43
Speaker 1: So basically not good. Goring is not on the right
23:46
Speaker 1: side of history, meaning he's a Nazi and.
23:51
Speaker 2: This guy was one of his best Nazi friends and
23:54
Speaker 2: we brought him over and made him a US government employee.
23:59
Speaker 2: Basically fun fact, at one point this guy received the
24:03
Speaker 2: highest award a civilian can get from the Defense Department,
24:07
Speaker 2: which good for him, I guess.
24:10
Speaker 1: I mean when the I guess if the valid if
24:12
Speaker 1: the Nazis are validating you, that's what you're sourcing your
24:16
Speaker 1: validation from the Nazi Party.
24:19
Speaker 2: Well no, he got that from the United States.
24:23
Speaker 1: Oh oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. So see that's so interesting.
24:27
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's like we're celebrating a lot of these
24:31
Speaker 1: people and just ignoring the inconvenient facts where they they've
24:36
Speaker 1: come from.
24:37
Speaker 2: A lot of that has to do with another inconvenient fact,
24:41
Speaker 2: which is that these Nazi scientists end up developing a
24:45
Speaker 2: lot of really important technology for the United States. The
24:48
Speaker 2: space suit was made by one of these dudes. The
24:51
Speaker 2: rocket that eventually gets us to the Moon is made
24:55
Speaker 2: by one of these dudes. So I don't know, like, we.
24:58
Speaker 1: Use their technology, and they're technology helped us advance in
25:03
Speaker 1: certain ways. And but yeah, I mean again, it's like,
25:07
Speaker 1: just because there's good information or useful information here doesn't
25:10
Speaker 1: mean it was obtained in an ethical.
25:12
Speaker 2: Way, right, And the notion that none of these dudes
25:16
Speaker 2: were Nazis. Two of the people they brought over, doctor
25:20
Speaker 2: Kurt Blome and doctor Walter Schreiber, were respectively, the deputy
25:26
Speaker 2: Surgeon General of the Third Reich and the Surgeon General
25:31
Speaker 2: of the Third Reich, So of course those are Nazis.
25:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's you know, you can have some
25:36
Speaker 1: wishful thinking or denial or you know whatever, but if
25:41
Speaker 1: you you know, take a good, long, hard look at
25:44
Speaker 1: the facts, you know it's there. But I mean again,
25:48
Speaker 1: you know it's inconvenient to acknowledge that, especially when the
25:53
Speaker 1: information was seen as so valuable. The human experiments unethical,
25:58
Speaker 1: of course, but you know, they collected a lot of
26:02
Speaker 1: data from these so the US wanted these things.
26:07
Speaker 2: Those two especially become really important later on, and we'll
26:13
Speaker 2: get to that. But there's also Werner von Braun, who
26:17
Speaker 2: is probably the most famous because he's the one who
26:20
Speaker 2: ran the V two rocket program and he's the one
26:23
Speaker 2: who brought that technology to us and we eventually used
26:26
Speaker 2: that technology to go to the Moon before anyone else allegedly.
26:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, he's he is a Nazi
26:35
Speaker 1: or was a Nazi, and yeah, also the chief architect
26:38
Speaker 1: of the rocket program that got us to the moon,
26:40
Speaker 1: so you know, dose tank things exist together.
26:44
Speaker 2: And he also the V two rocket program was mostly
26:49
Speaker 2: slave labor. They made slaves build these V two rockets
26:54
Speaker 2: inside mines in case something blows up, no one, They
26:58
Speaker 2: don't want to kill any Nazis, and it was all
27:02
Speaker 2: slave labor. He ran the program. He only ran the
27:06
Speaker 2: science part, but still like, even if you're running the
27:09
Speaker 2: science part, you know how the assembly part is working.
27:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like you we weren't ignorant of that. There's
27:17
Speaker 1: no way that a person in your position overseeing this
27:20
Speaker 1: project would not know a detail like that.
27:23
Speaker 2: He also received the National Medal of Science in nineteen
27:26
Speaker 2: seventy five from the US, from the United States. Yeah,
27:30
Speaker 2: Otto Ambrose is another that we brought over. Co invented
27:35
Speaker 2: Saren gas. That A in Saren stands for Ambrose.
27:40
Speaker 1: Hitler loved Auto Ambrose because he figured out how to
27:42
Speaker 1: make synthetic rubber when the Reich was running out of rubber.
27:46
Speaker 1: This man Auto was also in charge of a slave
27:49
Speaker 1: labor camp where they made that synthetic rubber where people
27:53
Speaker 1: were often worked to death, and he became part of
27:56
Speaker 1: Operation paper Clip even though he was tried and convict
28:00
Speaker 1: did of war crimes. So again, more evidence that the
28:04
Speaker 1: US was hiring individuals who were active Nazis.
28:10
Speaker 2: Also, doctor Theodore Benzinger, when he died, his obituary in
28:15
Speaker 2: the New York Times mentioned that he invented the ear thermometer.
28:18
Speaker 2: It did not mention that he would host viewings of
28:21
Speaker 2: Himmler's medical experiment murder videos among Nazis. So well, yeah,
28:30
Speaker 2: he would host them when they would show those, when
28:33
Speaker 2: people would Nazis would gather around to watch people being
28:36
Speaker 2: murdered by way of medical experiment. This is the guy
28:40
Speaker 2: who would host it. Must have had a lot of
28:42
Speaker 2: horror movie personality.
28:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean if you're torturing people and it's
28:48
Speaker 1: there must be a level of detachment where you don't
28:51
Speaker 1: see those subjects as human, because you know, I think
28:55
Speaker 1: the average person would see would have an issue with
28:59
Speaker 1: with that, even in the name of science.
29:01
Speaker 2: You would hope. So that is definitely hope.
29:04
Speaker 1: Telling.
29:05
Speaker 2: One other Nazi that Annie Jacobson brings up in this
29:09
Speaker 2: video and in the book is a guy named Charles
29:12
Speaker 2: Lux And the only reason I'm mentioning him is I
29:15
Speaker 2: was really worried for a second that I went to
29:18
Speaker 2: a grade school that was named after a Nazi, because
29:21
Speaker 2: I did, very briefly, go to a grade school named Lowx.
29:25
Speaker 1: Well, if it makes you feel better, I was born
29:27
Speaker 1: and raised in Lee County in Florida. Lee as in
29:30
Speaker 1: general e Lee of the Confederacy.
29:32
Speaker 2: Oh that's bad times. Well, I found out Charles Lowx
29:36
Speaker 2: not the person that my school was named after. It
29:40
Speaker 2: was the school was built in nineteen oh four. For
29:42
Speaker 2: one thing, it was named after a riverboat captain. That's
29:46
Speaker 2: pretty fucking cool. I mean, I'm sure he was super
29:48
Speaker 2: duper racist.
29:50
Speaker 1: Like I mean, weren't all the white people, yeah, or
29:54
Speaker 1: most Elie.
29:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing. It was nineteen o four folks are.
29:57
Speaker 2: Of course he was racist. So all these peopleeople are Nazis.
30:00
Speaker 2: All these people that we brought over, maybe not all
30:03
Speaker 2: sixteen hundred, but a good deal of them are Nazis.
30:06
Speaker 2: Even though to this day there are people who will
30:11
Speaker 2: try to debunk this idea by saying, well, no, Truman
30:15
Speaker 2: stipulated that we not bring over any actual Nazis, and
30:19
Speaker 2: it's like, well, yeah, so what about that.
30:21
Speaker 1: Okay, he said something, and Truman said a thing.
30:24
Speaker 2: Of course he's not going to say, bring me a
30:26
Speaker 2: lot of Nazis please.
30:28
Speaker 1: I mean, everyone's word is not bond like, you know,
30:32
Speaker 1: let's be let's let's be realistic here.
30:37
Speaker 2: One of the things that's really interesting about this group
30:41
Speaker 2: of scientists that they bring over is a place called
30:44
Speaker 2: Camp King which was a Cold War black site in
30:48
Speaker 2: Europe where we worked on we meaning the United States,
30:53
Speaker 2: Me and Fizzi both specifically right, worked on enhanced interrogation
30:59
Speaker 2: techniques on Soviet prisoners. And the reason that's important is
31:04
Speaker 2: one the doctors who ran it. We've already mentioned doctor
31:07
Speaker 2: Walter Schreiber and doctor Kurt Blom, who were the Surgeon
31:11
Speaker 2: General and deputy Surgeon General of the Third Reich. And
31:15
Speaker 2: what's really interesting is that is the program that goes
31:19
Speaker 2: on to become mk Ultra, which so mk.
31:24
Speaker 1: Ultra was basically a Nazi idea.
31:28
Speaker 2: Not only is a Nazi idea, but it's a continuation
31:32
Speaker 2: of Nazi experiments. So we didn't just want this information
31:37
Speaker 2: on human experiments. We wanted to do some ourselves. We
31:41
Speaker 2: wanted to keep that research going. It's a direct line
31:44
Speaker 2: from the Nazis to mk Ultra. And that shouldn't surprise
31:48
Speaker 2: anyone because that's when we start doing a bunch of
31:50
Speaker 2: crazy human experiments.
31:52
Speaker 1: You know you're doing something shady if you're hiding it
31:54
Speaker 1: from the public.
31:56
Speaker 2: We'll never know how big mk Ultra was because the
32:00
Speaker 2: director of the CIA in nineteen seventy three ordered all
32:04
Speaker 2: of the files about it to be destroyed. But there
32:07
Speaker 2: was one box of files that got put in the
32:10
Speaker 2: wrong place, and someone eventually found that box of files
32:13
Speaker 2: and was like, what the fuck is this?
32:16
Speaker 1: Well, at least it wasn't in a toilet.
32:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, what if that's how they found it? Someone
32:21
Speaker 2: just dumped twenty thousand files in a toilet, tried to
32:25
Speaker 2: flush it.
32:25
Speaker 1: I was under severe dress.
32:29
Speaker 2: It seemed like a good idea, where's the draino? A
32:33
Speaker 2: lot of that was written in ink, figured it would
32:36
Speaker 2: wash away. So yeah, mk Ultra is a Nazi idea.
32:39
Speaker 2: And that's important as it relates to Jonestown, because the
32:44
Speaker 2: theory with Jonestown isn't just that it was a CIA
32:48
Speaker 2: medical experiment. It's that it was a CIA medical experiment
32:53
Speaker 2: with some sort of genocide angle to it. Because one
32:58
Speaker 2: thing we.
32:58
Speaker 1: Know as a potential ultimate goal, right, which is dark?
33:03
Speaker 1: That's dark, and what do we.
33:05
Speaker 2: Know about the inhabitants of Jonestown mostly black people predominantly.
33:11
Speaker 1: I didn't mean that wasn't the reference I was making.
33:14
Speaker 2: And this is.
33:17
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, just awful that they're Yeah, it's the targeting
33:21
Speaker 1: of marginalized groups that have less resources and can go
33:27
Speaker 1: under the radar of you know, these horrible things are happening.
33:30
Speaker 1: So yeah, well another another wonderful stain in our history.
33:36
Speaker 2: It's very dark, and this book was was Jonestown a
33:41
Speaker 2: CIA medical experiment? Like I said, it kind of starts
33:45
Speaker 2: with Operation paper Clip, which we just went through and
33:49
Speaker 2: right away it makes an interesting argument, which is that
33:53
Speaker 2: the Nazis weren't strictly anti Semitic where they weren't you
33:57
Speaker 2: know they they weren't anti Semitic. It was worse than that.
34:00
Speaker 2: They considered any group that didn't fit their ideal of
34:06
Speaker 2: a white Aryan future. They considered those people subhuman, and
34:12
Speaker 2: they killed those people. It was Jews in Germany, but
34:15
Speaker 2: they killed Slavs, they killed intellectuals, they killed drug addicts,
34:20
Speaker 2: they killed criminals, they killed communists, they killed homosexuals. Had
34:24
Speaker 2: they started out in Africa, they would have killed black
34:27
Speaker 2: people instead of Jews. That's just what the Nazis did.
34:31
Speaker 1: They didn't discriminate. They hated everybody right that wasn't you
34:35
Speaker 1: know their type.
34:37
Speaker 2: And what this book argues is that both sides kind
34:41
Speaker 2: of won World War Two. The Allies won the military war, obviously,
34:46
Speaker 2: but the Nazis won a social and political war over
34:51
Speaker 2: the United States in that their philosophy was embraced by
34:55
Speaker 2: lots of German Americans, who, at the time this book
34:59
Speaker 2: was written and still today, are the largest ethnic group
35:03
Speaker 2: in the United States. I didn't know that.
35:06
Speaker 1: I didn't know that either, but I guess it's easier
35:08
Speaker 1: to assimilate into society as a white person.
35:12
Speaker 2: There's a twenty fifteen article where the economists referred to
35:16
Speaker 2: German Americans as the silent minority. The subheading of that
35:21
Speaker 2: article reads, America's largest ethnic group has assimilated so well
35:25
Speaker 2: that people barely notice it. And yeah, it's because they're
35:28
Speaker 2: white people. So the Jonestown story, according to author Michael Myers,
35:35
Speaker 2: which come on with that name for one thing, but
35:39
Speaker 2: also he may or may not even be a real person.
35:42
Speaker 2: I've done some legwork trying to track this guy down,
35:47
Speaker 2: and I don't think he exists.
35:50
Speaker 1: But you think it's a pseudonym.
35:51
Speaker 2: I think it's a pseudonym. Yeah. The Jonestown story, according
35:55
Speaker 2: to Michael Myers, who will talk about in a later episode,
35:59
Speaker 2: starts with the which was Hitler's secret police. They were
36:03
Speaker 2: formed in nineteen twenty six. There were two hundred and
36:07
Speaker 2: eighty charter members whose job was to protect Adolf Hitler
36:10
Speaker 2: under the leadership of Heinrich Himmler. It grew to thirty
36:13
Speaker 2: thousand members by nineteen thirty four. These were the elites
36:17
Speaker 2: of the Master race. This was the strongest and handsomest
36:23
Speaker 2: Nazis Hitler could find. That's who he made his secret police.
36:27
Speaker 1: And these are the ones who managed the concentration camps.
36:31
Speaker 2: Right They were also tasked with implementing Himmler's plan to
36:35
Speaker 2: purify the areaan race in the first one hundred and
36:37
Speaker 2: twenty five years of his proposed thousand year Reich, which
36:41
Speaker 2: I find that part alarming too, because right from the outset,
36:45
Speaker 2: the Nazis were like, this is going to take a
36:46
Speaker 2: long time.
36:47
Speaker 1: What kind of ego do you have that you want,
36:51
Speaker 1: like the generations way after you to look like you like,
36:56
Speaker 1: what kind of fucking narcissistic bullshit is that?
37:00
Speaker 2: Yeah? And who has the confidence to launch one hundred
37:03
Speaker 2: and twenty five year plan.
37:07
Speaker 1: And be around for it. Yeah.
37:09
Speaker 2: Joe Biden just announced I think it was his immigration reform,
37:13
Speaker 2: and he was like by twenty twenty five, And I'm like,
37:16
Speaker 2: you're that sure You're still going to be in office
37:17
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty five. Don't jinx it. Don't jinx it
37:20
Speaker 2: like that. As a Cubs fan, I know you don't
37:23
Speaker 2: celebrate that championship until the game is over, so till
37:27
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, push it back to twenty twenty three.
37:30
Speaker 2: Maybe that'll get you reelected.
37:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.
37:32
Speaker 2: Anyway, So yeah, they managed the concentration camps. They also
37:38
Speaker 2: studied all of the cults and religious sects because Hitler
37:43
Speaker 2: was way into that. Anything he could bring in from
37:46
Speaker 2: weird religious stuff or occult stuff, he did. That's how
37:51
Speaker 2: they found the swastika.
37:52
Speaker 1: Well they yeah, they reappropriated a Hindu symbol to serve
37:58
Speaker 1: their own purposes. That's annoying white people reappropriating other people's cultures,
38:04
Speaker 1: especially if you're a Nazi doing that, like wow, now
38:07
Speaker 1: like you've completely tainted you know. You know, I'm not
38:12
Speaker 1: I wasn't raised Hindu, so I don't know the full
38:15
Speaker 1: significance of it, but I guarantee you that original intention
38:21
Speaker 1: was not white power.
38:23
Speaker 2: No, definitely not. And it's always kind of a bummer
38:25
Speaker 2: when you see a group try to bring it back
38:27
Speaker 2: and it's like that's just never gonna happen, like at
38:30
Speaker 2: least not in the United States or Germany. Like people
38:33
Speaker 2: are always gonna associate that with Nazis, which, yeah, it's
38:38
Speaker 2: a bummer, but I.
38:39
Speaker 1: Mean, yeah, in our probably in our lifetime at least.
38:42
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just weird because it was just like,
38:44
Speaker 1: you know, this is one of the world's oldest religions
38:48
Speaker 1: and he just sort of take it and it's just
38:50
Speaker 1: like I remember I was in India and a young guy.
38:55
Speaker 1: I think he was a family friend or something, must
38:57
Speaker 1: have been just early in high school, was talking about
39:01
Speaker 1: wanting to get a swastika tattoo. And you know, as
39:05
Speaker 1: an older person who lives in America, I was like,
39:08
Speaker 1: don't do that. That's not going to be a good look.
39:11
Speaker 1: You know, our era. It's just you know, it's it's
39:15
Speaker 1: now we see it as a Nazi symbol. So whatever
39:18
Speaker 1: you think you're portraying, it's like, it's just gonna get
39:22
Speaker 1: you in trouble.
39:23
Speaker 2: You're gonna have a lot of questions to answer. Yeah,
39:26
Speaker 2: exactly when people see that. So one of the things
39:29
Speaker 2: that was interesting to me, there's a quote from this
39:34
Speaker 2: book and it relates to the SS going out and
39:38
Speaker 2: finding occult shit and working on or researching mind control
39:43
Speaker 2: and telepathy, like these are all things the Nazis were
39:47
Speaker 2: very interested in. And there's a quote in this book
39:50
Speaker 2: that says Himmler viewed Christ's power to cure the sick
39:54
Speaker 2: as no more than the ability to impart his extremely
39:57
Speaker 2: strong aura to upgrade the low energy levels of the afflicted.
40:02
Speaker 2: And what's interesting about that is that's basically the secret,
40:06
Speaker 2: that's the science of getting rich. That's all of those books.
40:09
Speaker 2: Me and you did an episode of the Unpopular Opinion
40:13
Speaker 2: podcast where we talked about the Mary Trump Book and
40:17
Speaker 2: the Science of Getting Rich, which were both really important
40:21
Speaker 2: books to the Trump family. And we did an episode
40:23
Speaker 2: of this podcast about the Mary Trump Book.
40:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it was the exact same thing, the
40:28
Speaker 1: exact thing the Trump family and other powerful people throughout
40:32
Speaker 1: history have been obsessed with. Not to say also that
40:36
Speaker 1: there's you know, I think there there's of course a
40:39
Speaker 1: validity to visualization, and but yeah, again it's like if
40:46
Speaker 1: the you know, some people are going to not manage
40:51
Speaker 1: their power in the most benevolent way as we've learned.
40:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like there has to be something
40:58
Speaker 2: to the law of attraction, the power positive thinking, whatever
41:02
Speaker 2: you want to call it. Otherwise it wouldn't be around
41:05
Speaker 2: as long as it's been around. That's a theory that
41:08
Speaker 2: started in the early nineteen hundreds, maybe earlier than that,
41:12
Speaker 2: but the first really well known book about it comes
41:15
Speaker 2: out in like nineteen ten, I think, and there are
41:18
Speaker 2: people who've been swearing by it ever since. And it
41:21
Speaker 2: kind of reminds me of MK Ultra, where you get
41:25
Speaker 2: someone who's just in general really cynical about conspiracy theories
41:30
Speaker 2: and the idea that the government does bad sometimes and
41:34
Speaker 2: they'll tell you, yeah, mk Ultra lasted thirty years, but
41:37
Speaker 2: we didn't find anything. Like Mkultra was real, but we
41:40
Speaker 2: didn't find anything. And it's like, you think we would
41:43
Speaker 2: pump that much money and that much time and that
41:47
Speaker 2: many decades into it if we weren't getting anything from it,
41:51
Speaker 2: Like if nothing else, we're getting some bitch and interrogation
41:55
Speaker 2: techniques and some torture techniques. I'm sure we're not leaving
41:59
Speaker 2: empty handed. No, definitely not. And so the way this
42:03
Speaker 2: all ties in to the CIA is that the CIA
42:08
Speaker 2: was in large part the idea of again a former Nazi,
42:12
Speaker 2: this time a guy named Ryan hard Gellen. And at
42:16
Speaker 2: the time it was founded, it was staffed with former
42:19
Speaker 2: OSS and FBI agents, which are two American intelligence and
42:24
Speaker 2: law enforcement agencies, and then also SS and SD agents,
42:29
Speaker 2: which are Nazis. Those are the most hardcore Nazis. And
42:35
Speaker 2: the way they put it in the book is that
42:38
Speaker 2: this basically becomes the identity of the CIA. It's just
42:42
Speaker 2: kind of built by Nazis. Yeah, and so that's pretty alarming.
42:47
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's gonna it starts with a certain culture
42:50
Speaker 1: then right, yeah.
42:52
Speaker 2: Like it's it's starting with the idea that, well, we
42:55
Speaker 2: know how brutal the Nazi secret police were over in
43:00
Speaker 2: Zazi Germany. How do we harness that for ourselves and
43:04
Speaker 2: maybe take it all around the world, because that's the
43:07
Speaker 2: CIA operates everywhere. And Gellen eventually became the head of
43:13
Speaker 2: the CIA's spy ring in Europe. Among other things, he
43:17
Speaker 2: came up with the idea for Radio Free Europe, which
43:19
Speaker 2: is a US propaganda channel that exists to this day.
43:23
Speaker 2: As part of his work in Europe, he formed more
43:25
Speaker 2: than sixty spy schools that graduated seven thousand students. A Nazi.
43:31
Speaker 2: A Nazi set up a school that graduated seven thousand spies.
43:36
Speaker 1: So what was the point of the US prosecuting Nazis
43:41
Speaker 1: for it? Was it strictly for optics?
43:43
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it was mostly for show. And I
43:47
Speaker 2: think eventually, like once you wear out your usefulness were
43:52
Speaker 2: the United States we brought over a bunch of Nazis
43:56
Speaker 2: that we knew were performing, grewsome medical experiments. You think
44:00
Speaker 2: we're going to care if at the age of ninety
44:03
Speaker 2: five they get deported back to Germany?
44:05
Speaker 1: Fuck?
44:06
Speaker 2: No, Like Oh, you got sold out by the US government.
44:09
Speaker 2: Welcome to living under the US government, you Nazi scumbags.
44:14
Speaker 2: Which that actually just happened. A ninety five year old
44:17
Speaker 2: dude got deported to Germany, and I fucking love it.
44:20
Speaker 2: I hope the plane ride was shitty. I hope he
44:24
Speaker 2: threw up on the way over. I hope he caught
44:26
Speaker 2: the RONA. I hope it doesn't kill him, but it's
44:28
Speaker 2: very brutal, and I hope he has a bad time
44:31
Speaker 2: in Germany. Fucking Nazi asshole. It's ninety five, Yeah, still
44:35
Speaker 2: around anyway. Yeah, there's a quote from the book so
44:39
Speaker 2: many former SS and SD agents were hired by the
44:42
Speaker 2: CIA that they formed the basic personality of the agency.
44:47
Speaker 1: That establishes the culture of this agency and from you know,
44:50
Speaker 1: I mean it's a similar issue that people say with
44:52
Speaker 1: the with the police departments here in the US, as
44:55
Speaker 1: they stemmed from I guess the agency that caught runaway slaves.
44:59
Speaker 1: So you know, if you're if you're coming from that culture,
45:03
Speaker 1: then it's it's starting off at a really problematic place.
45:08
Speaker 2: Yeah. Just the fact that the CIA when it launched
45:11
Speaker 2: was half Nazis, Like, is it still half Nazis? Makes
45:15
Speaker 2: you wonder, is there a quota they have a is
45:18
Speaker 2: there affirmative action for Nazis? Do they have to hire
45:20
Speaker 2: a certain number of Nazis to keep operating? Like how much, say,
45:24
Speaker 2: did the Nazis have in the CIA? I really want
45:27
Speaker 2: to know.
45:28
Speaker 1: It's so interesting because Nazis also such a dirty word
45:31
Speaker 1: in the US, you know, even now, when when people
45:35
Speaker 1: were calling some members of the Republican parties Nazis, especially
45:39
Speaker 1: after the attack, the recent attack on the Capitol, there
45:42
Speaker 1: was a lot of pushback like don't you know, like
45:45
Speaker 1: that is like as if they were calling them a slur,
45:49
Speaker 1: right which, and it's like, well, there was literally a
45:52
Speaker 1: swastika flag.
45:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a slur if you're not a Nazi, yeah yeah,
45:59
Speaker 2: But if if you are, then you're a Nazi and
46:02
Speaker 2: people get to call you that, even if you want
46:05
Speaker 2: to be called something different, you don't carry around the
46:08
Speaker 2: Hitler swastika and expect to be called something other than
46:11
Speaker 2: a Nazi. So one of the first connections they make
46:15
Speaker 2: between the CIA and Jonestown in this book. It's kind
46:19
Speaker 2: of a minor one, but it's the one that ends
46:22
Speaker 2: out this chapter about the Nazis and when I say
46:25
Speaker 2: a minor. It's not minor at all. But one of
46:28
Speaker 2: the war criminals we brought over was a guy named
46:31
Speaker 2: Otto Albricht Alfred von Bolschwing, who I am just gonna
46:35
Speaker 2: call Otto from now. Yeah, holy shit, dude. He was
46:39
Speaker 2: hired as a consultant for a California tech firm called TCI.
46:44
Speaker 2: Also very alarming how much of this happens in Liberal California,
46:48
Speaker 2: But anyway, hired as a consultant for a tech firm
46:52
Speaker 2: called TCI, and eventually became the head of TCI, And
46:56
Speaker 2: at one point a subsidiary of TCI called International Imaging
47:01
Speaker 2: Systems purchases a company called Intercontinental Technology, specifically to help
47:07
Speaker 2: them facilitate the sale of arms in the Middle East.
47:11
Speaker 2: And the founder and president of Intercontinental Technology was notorious
47:16
Speaker 2: CIA arms dealer Frank Turpel, who at one point admitted
47:21
Speaker 2: to supplying mercenaries and weapons during the early stages of
47:27
Speaker 2: Jonestown when the camp was being used as a CIA
47:31
Speaker 2: training center. And that's an important detail because one of
47:35
Speaker 2: the things you have to take into account when wondering
47:38
Speaker 2: if the CIA was involved in Jonestown is the political
47:42
Speaker 2: climate of Guyana at the time.
47:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, Guyana was one of the leading forces in the
47:48
Speaker 1: Non Aligned Movement, an organization of one hundred and twenty
47:52
Speaker 1: developing world nations that are not aligned with or against
47:56
Speaker 1: any world power, and.
47:57
Speaker 2: Even worse, they were friendly with the Soviet Union. So
48:00
Speaker 2: there is no question at all that the CIA was
48:05
Speaker 2: definitely in Guyana at the time. They were actually the
48:08
Speaker 2: ones who broke the story. The CIA was the first
48:12
Speaker 2: agency or outfit to report that mass suicides had happened
48:17
Speaker 2: in Guyana, which is very convenient that the CIA was
48:22
Speaker 2: there first to control that narrative and get that story out.
48:27
Speaker 1: By their own account, they were there within minutes of
48:29
Speaker 1: the massacre.
48:30
Speaker 2: There's a guy named Richard Dwyer who eventually becomes really
48:34
Speaker 2: important to this story, and he was at the scene
48:38
Speaker 2: of that shooting, and he's the one who shows up
48:42
Speaker 2: in Jonestown like minutes after it happens. And that's it's
48:46
Speaker 2: super convenient because if this was a CIA thing, they're
48:50
Speaker 2: going to want to get in there and shut it
48:53
Speaker 2: down and come up with a cover story pretty quick.
48:57
Speaker 2: And one of the things we know about Jonestown, most
49:00
Speaker 2: of the medical documents went missing. We don't have any
49:05
Speaker 2: of the medical records showing what was happening there. We
49:09
Speaker 2: know there was lots and lots and lots of drugs,
49:11
Speaker 2: more drugs then you would be able to bring into
49:14
Speaker 2: a country without help, yeah, like high level help.
49:18
Speaker 1: And then we also earlier mentioned that the ultimate goal
49:21
Speaker 1: of Jonestown may have been mass genocide. And my question
49:26
Speaker 1: is is why is it related to maybe the mind
49:30
Speaker 1: control experiments, like can we get a group of people
49:33
Speaker 1: to just off themselves? Like, I'm very curious why.
49:38
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things we mentioned on the last
49:42
Speaker 2: episode was the body count and the fact that at
49:45
Speaker 2: first it was like four hundred and then it eventually
49:48
Speaker 2: became nine hundred and eighteen I think either nine eighteen
49:51
Speaker 2: or nine sixteen. And the excuse that the American government
49:56
Speaker 2: gave was that, well, parents fell on top of their
50:01
Speaker 2: kids and we didn't see those kids underneath them at first.
50:04
Speaker 2: But that's a lot of kids. Four hundred people fell
50:09
Speaker 2: on top of five hundred additional bodies and hid them all.
50:13
Speaker 1: What are the chances that, like, you're all going to
50:15
Speaker 1: land in the same position, And we.
50:18
Speaker 2: Know there are lots and lots of bodies that clearly
50:22
Speaker 2: are people who were shot as opposed to having been
50:25
Speaker 2: poisoned or also people whose injection marks are or have
50:31
Speaker 2: injection marks in their back, like by their shoulder blade.
50:34
Speaker 2: So the suggestion in the conspiracy theory CIA version of
50:39
Speaker 2: this story is that after they tried this suicide thing,
50:44
Speaker 2: the people who fled. There were a lot more people
50:48
Speaker 2: who fled than they led on for one thing, and
50:50
Speaker 2: the reason the body count kept changing according to this
50:54
Speaker 2: theory is that we needed time to round those people
50:57
Speaker 2: up and kill them. The people who escaped in the
51:00
Speaker 2: jungle had to be found and murdered so they could
51:04
Speaker 2: not get out and tell people what happen. But some
51:07
Speaker 2: people still got out, But then you don't know at
51:10
Speaker 2: what level were they involved because a lot of the
51:14
Speaker 2: survivors are white people. And one thing that you learn
51:19
Speaker 2: about Jonestown if you look into it more, is the
51:22
Speaker 2: white people were treated way way different than the black people.
51:26
Speaker 2: Black people when they landed in Guyana were bound and
51:29
Speaker 2: gagged and basically taken off to live as slaves, but
51:35
Speaker 2: white people had a little more status and lived a
51:38
Speaker 2: little easier, which you would expect, especially if a lot
51:41
Speaker 2: of those white people are American intelligence or US intelligence, Like, yeah,
51:47
Speaker 2: of course they're not going to put themselves through that shit, so.
51:50
Speaker 1: They were extracted into from the danger into safety and.
51:55
Speaker 2: Then yes, somehow a lot of them survived. Yeah, but
51:59
Speaker 2: there is there's one woman who we're going to talk
52:01
Speaker 2: about in a future episode who is a survivor of
52:04
Speaker 2: Jonestown who is not white, who immediately after Jonestown was
52:10
Speaker 2: like that was a CIA medical experiment to do some
52:14
Speaker 2: genocide stuff. So it's not really as crazy of a
52:18
Speaker 2: theory as it seems.
52:20
Speaker 1: And I mean, I don't think anything's outside the realm
52:23
Speaker 1: of possibility.
52:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not it's not unique to this book.
52:28
Speaker 2: There's we'll link to it also. But this book, like
52:31
Speaker 2: I said, is very hard to find there. You can
52:33
Speaker 2: find a PDF of it out there on the internet.
52:35
Speaker 2: But even then, someone clearly made it with a copier,
52:40
Speaker 2: like a copy machine.
52:42
Speaker 1: Six hundred and something pages.
52:44
Speaker 2: Bless that person, Yeah, which I mean they must have
52:48
Speaker 2: felt like this book was important enough to preserve because
52:51
Speaker 2: it is really hard to find now, like this copy
52:55
Speaker 2: was at a library somewhere and someone just copied it
52:59
Speaker 2: and uploaded it as a PDF, like photocopied every page. Wow,
53:04
Speaker 2: But it's not the only resource about this. What I
53:08
Speaker 2: think is even more interesting is San Diego State University
53:13
Speaker 2: has been running a website about Jonestown since like nineteen
53:19
Speaker 2: ninety eight, and they still update it fucking regularly with
53:25
Speaker 2: stories and research and analysis about Jonestown, and a lot
53:31
Speaker 2: of the San Diego State University website is about this.
53:35
Speaker 2: It's about the idea that the CIA was way, way,
53:39
Speaker 2: way more involved in Jonestown then.
53:42
Speaker 1: Cold For is that a private school public school?
53:47
Speaker 2: I think it's a public school. I mean, they have
53:50
Speaker 2: a disclaimer on the site that the opinions don't necessarily
53:53
Speaker 2: reflect the school as a whole. But also it's very
53:57
Speaker 2: well researched stuff, like they cite their sources as you
54:02
Speaker 2: would have to do in that situation. Like it's an
54:05
Speaker 2: official San Diego State University school website and the last
54:11
Speaker 2: updates it seems like they update it yearly now, but
54:14
Speaker 2: when they update it, it's dozens and dozens of papers
54:18
Speaker 2: and articles And there was just an update October of
54:22
Speaker 2: twenty twenty comparing Trump to Jim Jones, and it makes
54:27
Speaker 2: a lot of really good arguments that Trump and his
54:30
Speaker 2: followers are kind of a modern day version of Jim
54:36
Speaker 2: Jones and the people's temper.
54:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's these a lot of cult leaders,
54:40
Speaker 1: very successful cult leaders, have a lot of characteristics in common. Yeah,
54:46
Speaker 1: and a lot of them have studied each other. Like,
54:49
Speaker 1: tell me which one of them has not read mind comp.
54:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah, I don't remember the world where
54:58
Speaker 2: if you were running for president and people found out
55:01
Speaker 2: that at one point you slept with a copy of
55:04
Speaker 2: Hitler's other book, his book of Speeches, next to your
55:07
Speaker 2: bed for years, you would just automatically like you would
55:10
Speaker 2: not win the election. We found that out about Trump
55:13
Speaker 2: while he was running for office, and we also found
55:15
Speaker 2: it out in nineteen ninety three. It just resurfaced when
55:19
Speaker 2: he was running for office. He was like, Yeah, someone
55:21
Speaker 2: gave me a book a Hitler's speeches. I keep it
55:23
Speaker 2: next to the bed. It's like, what, it's odd, It's
55:26
Speaker 2: very odd. If someone gave me a book of Hitler's speeches.
55:29
Speaker 2: I wouldn't just get rid of the book. I would
55:31
Speaker 2: get rid of the friend.
55:33
Speaker 1: Like, well, I certainly would not sleep next to it.
55:36
Speaker 2: No, the friend or the book. Yeah, creepy. So yeah,
55:40
Speaker 2: on the on the next episode, we're going to start
55:43
Speaker 2: digging into the ties between the People's Temple and American
55:48
Speaker 2: intelligence in general. There's one family in particular, the Layton family,
55:55
Speaker 2: where a lot of the top level Jonestown people are
56:00
Speaker 2: all tied to this one very rich family that has
56:03
Speaker 2: lots of ties to the Nazis. It's weird. It's very weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:10
Speaker 2: So Actually, if you want to read something weird, because
56:14
Speaker 2: I don't think there's enough to do an actual episode
56:16
Speaker 2: about this, I'll link to it on on pops dot com.
56:20
Speaker 2: On that San Diego State University website, there is an
56:24
Speaker 2: article about all of the weird connections between the assassination
56:28
Speaker 2: of Martin Luther King Junior and Jonestown. Like at one
56:33
Speaker 2: point one of the lawyers involved in Jonestown tried to
56:37
Speaker 2: get this witness. She was in the same boarding house
56:42
Speaker 2: that James Earl Ray was allegedly in when he shot
56:44
Speaker 2: Martin Luther King, and she saw the guy who pulled
56:48
Speaker 2: the trigger run past her like she saw him very clearly.
56:52
Speaker 1: There was an eyewitness, right.
56:54
Speaker 2: But she refused to identify the person she saw as
56:58
Speaker 2: James Earl Ray, so they threw her in a mental institution.
57:02
Speaker 2: And that's why her refusal to agree that the man
57:07
Speaker 2: she saw was James Earl Ray, they put her in
57:09
Speaker 2: a fucking mental institution, and at one point one of
57:12
Speaker 2: the Jonestown lawyers tries he actually gets her out, and
57:17
Speaker 2: I guess under the idea that he was going to
57:19
Speaker 2: send her to Jonestown. And there's all these weird connections.
57:24
Speaker 2: Like that's just one, but there's all these weird connections
57:26
Speaker 2: between the MLK assassination in Jonestown.
57:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to wonder, like, you know, if the
57:32
Speaker 1: CIA is privy to all of this and they allow
57:35
Speaker 1: it to go on, maybe there's some involvement there.
57:39
Speaker 2: Well, if you look into the death of Malcolm X,
57:42
Speaker 2: that is kind of the implication, not necessarily that US
57:46
Speaker 2: intelligence killed him, but they knew it was coming and
57:49
Speaker 2: didn't do anything to protect him. Like events at the
57:54
Speaker 2: Audubon Ballroom where that happened, normally a huge police presence
57:58
Speaker 2: because it was a black club, and like in fucking La, now,
58:03
Speaker 2: if there's a bar that has the the audacity to
58:07
Speaker 2: host rap shows, it's gonna get shut down at some point,
58:11
Speaker 2: like the police presence, Like the police just swarm places
58:15
Speaker 2: like that because the police are fucking racist. So you know,
58:19
Speaker 2: there were tons of police that everything that happened at
58:22
Speaker 2: the Audubon Ballroom except the day Malcolm X was shot,
58:26
Speaker 2: two cops stationed on the roof. There were no police
58:29
Speaker 2: at the door, there was no one patting people down. Meanwhile,
58:32
Speaker 2: there were eleven FBI agents in the room when Malcolm
58:37
Speaker 2: X was shot.
58:38
Speaker 1: It's a lot.
58:39
Speaker 2: That is a whole lot and coincidence. Not a one
58:43
Speaker 2: of them did anything to stop what happened. But Jonestown
58:48
Speaker 2: seems more than that. It seems like involvement, heavy involvement.
58:53
Speaker 2: I think. I think the drugs thing is the most
58:56
Speaker 2: interesting part. They had tens of thousands of tranquilizers, like
59:02
Speaker 2: massive amounts of drugs that you just, like a normal
59:05
Speaker 2: person can't How are you getting that through the airport?
59:08
Speaker 2: Like it's not gonna fucking happen. You need some sort
59:12
Speaker 2: of help.
59:12
Speaker 1: There's the hook up, like, yes, there's more. Normal people
59:18
Speaker 1: would get arrested if caught with that many.
59:20
Speaker 2: Drugs, definitely, And where would you even get that many
59:26
Speaker 2: Where there's drugs, there's the CIA, Like the mass amounts
59:30
Speaker 2: of drugs, the CIA is there, don't don't you doubt it?
59:34
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's what we're gonna get into in the
59:36
Speaker 2: next episode is all of the ties between Jonestown and
59:42
Speaker 2: the CIA and all of the possibly CIA affiliated people
59:46
Speaker 2: that were high level people's temple members also, which is weird.
59:51
Speaker 2: Until then, do we have anything to plug before we
59:53
Speaker 2: get out of here? Vizzit? You got the plugs?
59:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, just stay in touch. I'm at Phisitisani and all
59:59
Speaker 1: the platforms. It's f I. It's spelled f I Z
1:00:02
Speaker 1: A A D O S A n I. Please note
1:00:05
Speaker 1: that FIZZA has one Z and two a's. Yeah, just
1:00:09
Speaker 1: stay in touch. I'll announce any upcoming projects on there.
1:00:13
Speaker 1: I do have a stand up show the last month
1:00:15
Speaker 1: of every or the last Friday of every month. So
1:00:19
Speaker 1: that's a seven pm p s T, ten pm E
1:00:22
Speaker 1: s T. So it's a live stream online show.
1:00:25
Speaker 2: Nice Patreon dot com, slash on Pops or on popsnetwork,
1:00:29
Speaker 2: dot Supercast, dot tech. You can get bonus episodes of
1:00:32
Speaker 2: this podcast. The next on Pops Live Zoom comedy show
1:00:36
Speaker 2: is March twelve. Oh shit, And I don't know who
1:00:41
Speaker 2: all is on that show. I know a Tiff Myers
1:00:44
Speaker 2: is on it, and I'm on it, and Kevin Anderson's
1:00:46
Speaker 2: on it, and uh, I mean Jeff obviously, But we
1:00:50
Speaker 2: haven't booked any headliners or anything like that yet. We'll
1:00:53
Speaker 2: get to it, don't don't worry about it. Uh, you're
1:00:56
Speaker 2: done so tickets for that will be on sale soon.
1:00:59
Speaker 2: And I think that's it. Let's get the funk out
1:01:01
Speaker 2: of here. Fizzles say goodbye bye guys, goodbye everybody. We
1:01:05
Speaker 2: love you.