Latest / True Comfort / A Painful First-time Revelation and the Redemptive Power of God's Truth - with Melissa Dougherty
Transcript
- Teasi Cannon (00:02) Hi, I'm TC and I want to welcome you to true comfort where it's our desire to live out 2nd Corinthians chapter 1 verses 3 and 4 which assure us that we have a God who comforts us in all our afflictions and encourages us to take the comfort that we've received and share it with others. I also want to welcome my guest and friend Melissa Doherty. Melissa, thank you so much for being with us today. Melissa Dougherty (00:28) Yeah, thanks for having me on. Teasi Cannon (00:30) Yeah, so I'm going to share a few things about you ⁓ just from your bio. So Melissa is a wife and a mother of two daughters. They live in New Mexico where she is a Christian artist and an apologist with a ministry that focuses on her journey out of new age practices. And also she has a couple of associates degrees, one in, I think, early childhood multicultural education. And then ⁓ liberal arts, she has a bachelor's degree in religious studies from Southern Evangelical Seminary, which I highly recommend. She's also working on her master's degree there as well. And then last but not least, she is the author of a must read book called Happy Lies, how a movement you probably didn't have never heard of has, ⁓ wait, let me not mess this up. How a movement you probably never heard of shaped our self obsessed, Melissa Dougherty (00:59) me. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (01:28) culture and I definitely am going to put information about all of that in the show notes, but I cannot encourage people to get that book enough because it is a movement that has infiltrated so much of Christian practice in mainstream non-denominational churches or even more than that. But I was super honored and privileged to be able to be a part of a little bit of that before it came out. so Melissa Dougherty (01:53) Yes. Teasi Cannon (01:56) Thank you for your hard work on that book, Melissa. Melissa Dougherty (01:58) Thank you for your hard work on that book. People don't realize how much you were involved in helping me structure the content of that book. so yeah, TC was like behind the scenes helping me kind of do what my brain really needed help with and just restructuring that book. So thank you. Teasi Cannon (02:20) yeah, well it was fun and I'm thankful that you still wanted to be my friend. I was like, huh? No. Melissa Dougherty (02:25) ⁓ Yeah, I sent a chapter to her to review. She sends it back to me and you were like, don't be mad at me. Right. And I'm like, can I hire you actually do this to the whole book? And so, yeah, that's how that ended up. So, yeah, I was surprised that you thought I'd be upset, but I was hungry for it. I was like, please do this to the entire book. And it was so helpful. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (02:37) Okay. Well It was fun to learn so much, what you just said also just leads into some of the things I really love about you that I just want to share. just think that you, first of all, I'm always blown away by people who are intelligent like you are and also so artistic. You are an incredible artist and not only with like ⁓ fine arts, but you're also hilarious and you do these dramas on, she, mean, Melissa Dougherty (02:59) on. thanks. Thanks. I like to think so. Teasi Cannon (03:21) if you have never seen any of her skits you need to go on Melissa's YouTube and look for some of those because you just have such a funny way of exposing some of the most ridiculous things we buy into in the church and also some difficult things that we buy into but you you deliver it in such a way that it makes it easier to self-reflect and I also really appreciate that you model that. One of the things I remember Melissa Dougherty (03:24) Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Teasi Cannon (03:50) being so blessed by was you did a few. ⁓ on the street interviews, I think at a festival. And you came back after and just express, like you were, you looked back and you were saying, I could have done this better. I could have said this more gently or, and it was modeling for us just the ability to be a lifelong learner, to self critique and to walk in humility as we try to learn and grow and bring truth to hurting people who need it. So thank you for modeling. Melissa Dougherty (03:56) yeah. Teasi Cannon (04:24) that. I just think you're awesome. Kudos. So I like to just ask my guests to share a little bit about what got you started with an intentional study of apologetics and theology. when you made a decision to substantiate your faith with something a little bit more robust and maybe just a tiny bit of what got you started on your ministry focus. Melissa Dougherty (04:25) thank you. I try. I try. Yeah, man. ⁓ Well, I think I've always believed in God, ⁓ but I've always been... I don't want to say a skeptic, but I've always been somebody that is like, well, how did you do that? know, like if somebody, if I was a child and I saw somebody do a magic trick, ⁓ I would always get so disappointed when I realized like, it's just an illusion. You know what I mean? And so, you know, I remember growing up watching like ghost hunters, for example, which I don't recommend, okay, but I'm just, just give an example. ⁓ Ghost hunters, they would go in trying to disprove a haunting. Teasi Cannon (05:15) Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (05:30) They're not going in trying to prove that something's happening. They're going in saying, okay, are you haunted or is the house? Because some people, have a way of kind of projecting a perception of reality that's actually not real. And so in other words, I know they're ghost hunters, but I liked that. I'm like, man, if you can really show that it's something, then man, there's something there. And so I've always kind of had that, but. Teasi Cannon (05:33) Hmm. Mm. ⁓ Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (05:57) When I became a Christian at 16, my life completely changed and I had that same kind of mindset of just like, okay, well, what's real? What's true? What about this? What about that? And I leaned into all the questions I had. And as you know, you know my story pretty well. I mean, it was just, I got very, I got confronted with a lot of cynical Christians that just did not think thoughtfully about their faith. And it was such a disappointment. ⁓ And we... Teasi Cannon (06:23) Mm. Melissa Dougherty (06:26) I'm really big about the anti-intellectual vein within the church because it's damaging. And we see this in a lot of, yeah, you understand, especially your story. It's the best way to be deceived is to turn off your brain. And so I didn't like that. And so, yeah, I got into some nopey nonsense called New Thought. As you know, you read the book, you helped me kind of put it together. And then what really made me lean into apologetics was when I got out of it. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (06:29) Mm-hmm. It is. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (06:52) It's like this whole new world opened to me. I didn't realize it was apologetics though. You know how you'll be in something and you don't realize, there's a word for it. That was the beliefs and also, this is apologetics, the defense of the Christian faith. it was so rich with intellect and philosophy and history. And I'm like, where has this been? Like, why? Like Christians are so smart. And it was so eye-opening to me to think, wow, there's not just rich intellect in the Christian faith. Teasi Cannon (06:59) you Hmm. Right. Melissa Dougherty (07:22) ⁓ But it changed the world. Like it changed the way that we structured society. That I really lean into. so, and then, you know, just the questions about the Christian faith, about hell, the tough things. ⁓ And boy, let me tell you, when I wake up on a day where my heart is heavy, because we deal with heavy stuff, TC, like we wake up. Teasi Cannon (07:23) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Melissa Dougherty (07:47) And there are times, like right now I think I feel that. Like I feel for the first time in maybe five or so years since doing this online ministry, a little bit of burnout. a lot of it is because of the book. Like you write, ⁓ man, and you hit the ground running. It lasts years. And I just now in July got out of the constant interview phase since December of last year. And I'm like, I feel like I've stopped running. And I'm like, I think I need a break. Teasi Cannon (07:56) Mm. Mm-hmm. Wow. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (08:18) And you feel the heaviness of everything you're dealing with. And it's okay to take a break. Like there's nothing wrong with that. But the reason why I'm bringing this up is that a lot of Christians who maybe they don't have a lot of substance to their faith, like the days that they don't feel it, the days when they're like, man, there's so much evil in the world. You got this critical theory garbage. You got these ideologies. You got this, you got the politics. You got all this stuff. Teasi Cannon (08:22) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (08:45) in your face and you're like, I just want to go hide in my closet underneath the covers. It's apologetics. It's the, yes, it's the knowing that this is true on the days you don't feel like it's true. You're like, yeah, I know. I can stand on this. I don't, and that makes it okay. It makes it like, okay, I'm going to go hide for two, three weeks and not lose my faith over, you know, these kinds of things because Teasi Cannon (08:45) Yeah. Yes. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (09:13) you know too much. You know what I mean? Yeah, like you know too much. You know that it's true and you're fine. Like I think that is really the beauty of apologetics. And so I think that that's the first thing is I felt okay feeling everything and being okay knowing that you can lean into whatever it is you're feeling and come out okay on the other end because Teasi Cannon (09:15) Right. Melissa Dougherty (09:41) you have an intellectually rich faith. And so that was 2017. I've been riding that wave ever since. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (09:44) Right. Mm-hmm. Well, I just, as you're talking, I'm just like, yes, yes, yes. I mean, that is so the heart of, it's weird how even I feel like crying because what you're saying is the heart behind why I even started this podcast. Because for me, apologetics is not just an intellectual endeavor. It is, it is. I mean, there's study to do, there's reading to be done, but for me, like I was just like you, and I began to understand that there's Melissa Dougherty (10:04) Do what you do. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (10:20) for this it was exhilarating and I couldn't get enough and I still can't get enough because it's there are so many days when I feel just like you in fact I'm kind of wired that way I wake up with the weight of the world on me and I and I mean my husband knows it it's just our normal morning it takes me an hour or so to spend with coffee Jesus and and then he's so precious to let me untangle he'll sit there and listen to the darkest parts of my Melissa Dougherty (10:25) Yes. Teasi Cannon (10:50) while I find my group my way back to... Melissa Dougherty (10:50) Yes. Teasi Cannon (10:54) okay, I'm gonna go out for a walk, it's gonna be okay. And apologetics is always a part of helping me regain my footing, which brings me to the heart of the main part of our conversation. And so just as a reminder for listeners, each week I am inviting an apologist, a Christian apologist. And the reason why is because I want to show the beautiful gift of love that apologetics has been for me and is for so many. Basically what we're going to be doing is talking. You've agreed to come on and share a part of your story, a part of your heart that includes heartbreak or some type of deep pain or confusion, a real part of your life, of your journey that demands comfort. And then how God's comfort has been there for you, but also not only the promises of God that you read in his word or that you find in the biblical metanarrative, but when you're tempted to doubt it. Because I think we all are in the most painful moments of my life, I can read something in God's word and then still in the back of my head hear this little voice going, but how do know that's true? Am I a fool for believing that God says he's going to wipe away every tear or whatever it might be that I'm reading that day? And that is what also we'll talk about is just maybe a line or two of evidence that you personally go to when you're tempted to think you're a fool for believing it. And so I want to thank you again, Melissa, for being willing to come on and share that way with us. My hope is that as people listen to these conversations, they first of all see that they're not alone in their Christian journey that isn't always you know roses and rainbows that life the real Christian journey is filled with tribulation as Jesus promised but that also they will walk away with some tools in their own tool belt that maybe they didn't have before or just feeling ⁓ validated in some of those tools so that they can also receive comfort with confidence knowing that God's promises are not empty. So I'm going to just ⁓ let you start wherever you'd like to and ⁓ let you share your heart. Melissa Dougherty (13:08) Yeah. Yeah, well first let me say when you first came, when you came to me with this idea, I was so excited about it because there's not a, this is gonna sound silly, but my children have a children's book. I don't even remember the name, but it's a silly, silly book, silly animations. And I love silly books as you know. And, but it's about like Vikings, right? You know, who go and they fight for fun, you know, and like. The fighting looks like spit wads, right? Like it's not real fighting. And one of the big brutal guys that comes over and he talks to the main character and he's like, yeah, we don't get to really show a lot of our squishy side. We don't get to show ⁓ this other side of ourselves. I kind of feel like a lot of us are like that where ⁓ you have these intellectual giants. I'm pretty sure that Doug Rotheis cries. You know what I mean? I'm pretty sure. Teasi Cannon (13:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Melissa Dougherty (14:05) I'm pretty sure that Frank Turek, you know, sheds a tear a time or two. you know, it's this other side where ⁓ we're kind of, I guess, design, like our gifts kind of cater towards more intellectually rich stuff. But there's this other side that we tend not to share a lot, where other ministries, that's all they do, right? So to have that balance, I think is really good. And I love what you're doing. It's very unique and very needed. But yeah, I mean... Teasi Cannon (14:19) Mm-hmm. Right. Thank you. Thank you. Melissa Dougherty (14:34) I think that with anybody in this ministry, there are reasons why in our testimonies, why apologetics, not just apologetics, but understanding what you believe and why you believe it. So we keep saying this word apologetics, but it's more than that. I always say that people kind of believe a lot of what they do because of pain, and that's like a pain point. And that can be a good thing or not. Like if it leads you to truth. great, but if you're just trying to suspend your pain with a lie, hence probably one reason why I came up with the title of my own book, Happy Lies, is that it brings you comfort, but it's grounded in something that's not true. And I don't think that comes without merit. Like my own testimonial, for example. I mean, a lot of people heard me say this, you like I was suicidal. Like I was in a very dark place. And I believe my conversion was like a supernatural moment. Like I literally went to bed one night, woke up the next day a different person. But there's so much more even before that, that... It's so personal, right? And things that's, it's sacred, right? Like these things that we keep here are private and sacred and there's a hesitation to share it. Whereas other people kind of might market that, right, for their ministry, which isn't necessarily bad. For me, it's like, man, this is so personal. And one area... Teasi Cannon (15:47) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (16:04) where I know that you helped me with this a lot, was the, I struggled with like a gender confusion. I didn't know the word for it back in the day, but I was, I don't know, maybe from the ages of 12 to around 14. I hated. That's probably the best word. Maybe loathed, but I'd say hated, being a girl. Like there was something about my identity as a female. It was spiritual. Like there were spiritual things that were coming through there. But there was also this, I did not like my association with being a female, if that makes sense. But there's more even to that. And even now it's like I hesitate even sharing it because it's so, I've never even talked about it, but it goes all the way back to my childhood. There was a point, I was about five, from the ages around five to seven, I was sexually abused by a female, by a female. And I didn't know that's what it was. And it was not an adult. It was a family friend. I, TC, I had to go to counseling to realize... that that was wrong. Like I remember going to counseling and it just kind of came up ⁓ because there were issues that I was trying to deal with and I didn't understand why this blockage, why this blockage was happening. And ⁓ it was after my second child came along and my first child like went nuts. I'm like, my gosh, my kid's losing her mind. This is awful. That was a really dark time too. That was rough. And I remember being in that, ⁓ Teasi Cannon (17:48) Yes. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (17:57) counseling session with my new little baby, I'm not okay. Like I'm not okay on any stretch. I was doing nothing in ministry. I wanted nothing to do. I just wanted to survive. Like I was just trying to get through every day with my four year old who's throwing fits every day throughout the day. What's wrong with my kid? Is she a psychopath? Like I remember doing this. I remember Googling like how to tell if your toddler is a psychopath. And it's like, you can't do that, right? But I'm Teasi Cannon (18:18) If you Right. Melissa Dougherty (18:26) Is she devoid of emotion? Like, I was not okay. And so I'm in this counseling session and it, you know how it veers off into other topics and ⁓ I can't remember exactly how it got brought up, but I told her this. I was like, yeah, you know, this happened and you know, I guess it's just kids experimenting and blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's, she's like, whoa, whoa, Melissa, what? Back up. And so I told her the whole thing and I'm thinking, it's nothing, you know, kids do this. She's like, no. that's not normal. And I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, Melissa, you were molested. Like you were sexually abused. ⁓ that explains a lot. You know what I mean? It was like a, it was an aha moment, but I had to kind of backtrack a little bit. And I'm like, what? What do you mean? Like, of course, I mean, she was a kid. That doesn't count. She's like, no, it counts. And she was probably being abused. it, there is this world that kind of expanded and it informed another thing that I like to do in ministry is understanding the why. If I can understand the why. Teasi Cannon (19:10) Yeah. Right. Melissa Dougherty (19:35) on why you are the way you are, why you believe what you do. And maybe it's ridiculous. Like maybe it's absolutely insane what you believe. And a lot of people, especially in cults or high control religious groups, believe what they do, not because it's true, but because there's something informing that. If I can understand why, why are you clinging to this so badly, then it helps me take down my defenses. And so I can kind of reach across the table a little more. It takes off the pressure from me, in other words. I am not the Holy Spirit and it helps me understand, that's why, okay, that's why you're clinging to that. Because if you leave, you're leaving your whole family. It's not because it's true, it's because of what you're giving up. Teasi Cannon (20:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (20:24) there's these ⁓ aha moments. so for me, my ⁓ aha moment in that was enormous because it helps me understand this hatred for my gender, but it also helps me understand the spirituality, the spiritual implications that go along with it. There was a lot. Teasi Cannon (20:26) Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (20:44) Okay, there was a lot of a domino effect from this. Like even last night, like even last night I'm listening, I think it was a podcast you sent me. It was one that you sent me. ⁓ It was that, ⁓ what was her, ⁓ I can't remember her name, Diane. Yes, ⁓ my word, she is brilliant by the way. Teasi Cannon (20:47) Yeah. ⁓ yeah, Diane Langberg. She is brilliant. Melissa Dougherty (21:12) I was listening to the video he sent me about narcissism and there was something at the end that she was mentioning about ⁓ your identity as a female. There was something and it choked me up And there was something there. There's something still there that I deal with ⁓ because it always seems like I struggled with... Teasi Cannon (21:23) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (21:36) this type of, I wanna say, intellectual equality, I don't know what to call it, between men and women. And the issues that I see in groups that are primarily female, I struggle with. Because I'm like, we're better than this, ladies. We can actually use our brains. It's okay to kind of embrace this other side that will help you grow in your faith. Teasi Cannon (21:42) Hmm. Right. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (22:06) Like I remember one time being called self-righteous because I was speaking in front of a group of women, which I knew. I knew immediately I would be combating this, this right here, where it's like this females over here talking about prosperity teachings and not following our emotions and all these things. I'm like, she sounds so self-righteous. I'm like, do I? Like, what is it that you're, what is it? I don't even take it personally. I'm like, what is it that's informing that? Teasi Cannon (22:17) Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (22:34) Why are you resisting this intellectual debate or this conversation? Or what is it that you're holding onto? And so I think that there is something there that God has used tremendously with this, what I've done with it, you know, like what I have dealt with in that regard that I still deal with and how it's kind of affected Teasi Cannon (22:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (23:02) things that I think I still struggle with, like even the whole gender stuff. I'm still trying to figure a lot of this stuff out, but it was like, it was recently in my adult years that I realized, I was like, dealt with that as a kid and I didn't realize it and it caused so many problems. And it has informed a lot of things growing up with a single mom, three kids. Teasi Cannon (23:23) Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (23:30) And there's even a lot of stuff in that. know, like my dad was in the picture. And I don't like to talk about my mom a whole lot ⁓ because I want to respect her, ⁓ you know, and it's always really tricky to talk about that because there's so much, I have so much grace for my mom now, ⁓ but there were a lot of things she did that were not helpful to our own psyche and emotional health. I'll put it that way. And so like with all that garbage, Teasi Cannon (23:32) Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (23:59) All of that, here's what I've learned. And I tell my girls this. And I say it jokingly, right? I'm really cheeky with my kids, right? I'm like, we're not gonna be perfect, right? There's gonna be some things that you're gonna be able to tell your therapist, right? Like about your parents. You know what I mean? Like just take that with you. However, what I want you guys to understand is that it's always a choice, okay? No matter what kind of... Teasi Cannon (24:00) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (24:26) hardship you hit because there's going to be something like our kids have had. I feel like we have a great family like we have so much fun. ⁓ Very balanced household, it's it's really good, but it doesn't mean that my oldest. Yeah, some like are you still. Good right oldest teenager, I'm like you okay, you are right you can cry right of it and so. But I'm like it's always a choice. Teasi Cannon (24:39) No psychopaths. Mm-hmm, yeah. Melissa Dougherty (24:55) you know, if you struggle with like my oldest kind of struggles a little bit with anxiety and ⁓ I'm like you'll you gotta know why like why you struggle with that, but also You you have a choice of what you're gonna do with that Like are you going to let this define you because I did not identify with this whole victim narrative ⁓ that yes, this happened to me, but I'm like I Don't like what it did to me. So I'm gonna Teasi Cannon (24:55) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (25:22) go this way and like lean into a solution instead of staying here and identifying with it and saying, here, you kind of have to pave the road for me. There's always a choice of what you're gonna do. And that might be more obstacles for some people than others, but everybody deals with pain. Like everybody deals with these kinds of things. Teasi Cannon (25:25) Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (25:45) I, and this is, it kind of goes full circle with apologetics because along with that comes this beautiful element of like critical thinking and logic and healthy, good, robust philosophy, which everybody doesn't, a lot of Christians kind of put that down thinking, hey, the Bible talks about worldly philosophy. And I'm like, yeah, but all philosophy is, Teasi Cannon (25:56) Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (26:13) thinking, right? Like you're learning how to use. yeah, I mean, SES, you basically have philosophers for your professors who are Christians and they are teaching you how to think. They're teaching you the laws of logic and there's bad logic, bad philosophy and good logic, good philosophy. And so there's something about that, that when you learn that, when you learn these mental disorders or whenever you learn these behaviors, Teasi Cannon (26:14) Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (26:42) Like the video you sent me about like, so good, that was so good about narcissists and how they function and why they do what they do and the tactics that they use. You can actually then see that, apply it to your life and make better choices and you can spot deception. And you leave, you take the stuff with you because I have to admit something that I, I don't know if this is good or bad. Teasi Cannon (26:54) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Melissa Dougherty (27:12) ⁓ But I tend not, I don't dwell on, I don't dwell on things very often, very long, at all. I tend to just kind of move on and forget. And that's not always good, but a lot of times it just helps me live my life and have kind of like a skip in my step. But I also understand that there's ⁓ a snare to that because then you're just kind of not dealing with stuff, right? This is where a lot of people in new age and new thought run into is that, Teasi Cannon (27:23) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (27:40) just don't think about it and move on with life. And then you end up like suppressing a lot of stuff. So there's a balance there. But I find that I don't think about this stuff a lot ⁓ unless it comes up, unless there's something that I'm like, I'm kind of projecting here. And I think that's my pain. And so just being aware of that I think is very helpful. But yeah, I think that our pain can help us inform. Teasi Cannon (27:42) Right. Melissa Dougherty (28:05) ourselves, like why we do what we do and the way that we do it, why we believe what we do and how we can kind of create a God, like create a system of belief, a spirituality that kind of caters to that. So, I mean, I know I've said a lot, but hit me, man, bounce something off me. Teasi Cannon (28:11) Yeah. Yeah, well, I was, no, yes, no, first of all, thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you. I don't remember if I shared this with you or not, but I also was molested by a girl in my childhood. ⁓ It was, she was a, okay. Melissa Dougherty (28:31) Yeah. I know you didn't tell me that because I've not told anybody this. I really don't think I would have told you. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (28:45) Okay. Yeah, I actually was just thinking today that I might, and a friend recommended that maybe every now and then I share a bit of my own story on True Comfort Podcast. So I might actually share more about the sexual abuse in my childhood. had multiple, multiple. situations with that growing up as well. So I can completely relate to what you're saying. ⁓ didn't, ⁓ the effects of it weren't necessarily the same as far as I didn't struggle necessarily ever hating being a girl. But I think what is important that you've said and what just I kept thinking about is that what happens in these moments in our childhood or any type of abuse or pain or is that we're just so vulnerable in those moments. Whether or not we realize how wrong what's being done is. Like you didn't know at the time. I didn't know either. There was something that, I mean, it felt weird. This was a babysitter, a teenage babysitter, you know, and it felt a little bit off, but I didn't understand how horrible it was, what that was actually, you that I was being abused right then. ⁓ But... Melissa Dougherty (29:44) Yeah. Teasi Cannon (29:58) What happens is then we begin to believe lies. And I don't know, begin to understand how the enemy of our soul is able to whisper lies into our soul when we're vulnerable like that. But what I think I heard, when you went to your counseling, and this may happen differently for all of us in our own journey, but at some point we begin to realize, my gosh, at a certain point in time. I began to believe things that were not necessarily true about myself, about God, about reality, about others. And I can look back, and this happened for me too, a part of my journey with the Lord, and I don't wanna keep talking, because this is about you, but I'm just validating that what happens is, at some point the Holy Spirit is so sweet to help us to realize. Melissa Dougherty (30:38) No, no, you're good. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (30:46) ⁓ Why like you were saying the root what's the root of why I constantly feel rejection or what's the root of this recurring feeling of XYZ in my life or this recurring avoidance or this recurring this and I love that what it boils down to for me is it's a truth encounter like that, you you've heard probably spiritual warfare being defined rather than being this mystical battle between forces in the air. It's a truth. We're bringing truth to lies. And so I what I'm hearing you talk about, and I'd love for you to share more what what truth. So you have these lies about being a girl about being a woman about womanhood. But what are some of the truths that God has replaced? the lies Teasi Cannon (31:40) like for me, ⁓ I often begin to think things about what a failure I am or just feeling, know, I'll hear lies about being rejected or passed over or things like that. But for you, do you have... a recurring, I hate to call it a comfortable lie, but it's kind of like that one you just kind of by default maybe fall into that it may be easier to debunk it now after walking with the Lord, but I'd love if you have one that you deal with regularly and then how do you combat it with God's truth? Melissa Dougherty (32:20) I think, oh, there's so many ways I could go here. Two really come to mind. The first one does have to do with the hierarchy of male and femaleness, if you will, male and female. One thing, and I laugh to myself because it's so silly now, but. okay, so you can't be a man, right? Like you can't be a male. So you have to make it so that you're better than a man. And so you kind of shove them down. You're like, well, men are this, they're that, and blah, blah, blah. And you're like, man, females are this and we're that. And you know what I mean? It's like, it's not an equal thing. I did not see myself, this is after, by the way, for context, this is after I became a Christian and grew up. Teasi Cannon (32:46) Right. Melissa Dougherty (33:11) with a lot of like new thought, new age beliefs that tend to do this, that tend to elevate femininity, elevate females, elevate women above man. There is no equality in other words. I was like better than a man. I was like, I'm way better than you. that's really turned around. And ironically, this ideology, this critical theory ideology is really so ironic to say this. Teasi Cannon (33:20) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah Melissa Dougherty (33:39) really been helpful in me understanding the absolute garbage that that is. It's helped me really understand how valuable men are. Like I didn't realize, you put on blinders, right? Like you don't see what men actually deal with. I, don't get me wrong, I think that there's issues there, especially after having babies with my husband. And we had our own stuff to deal with. Like, ⁓ Teasi Cannon (33:45) Right. Right. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (34:05) I felt like it was very unequal. That's like a personal thing within our marriage, but being a young mother where I'm like, wow, my life is completely different from yours. You can just grab your coat and leave. I'm like, I can't even shower by myself, you know? And we really struggled with that because ⁓ the responsibility and the things that I had to deal with were very different than his. Teasi Cannon (34:17) Right. Melissa Dougherty (34:27) That's, yeah, that's a whole other story. That's probably a marriage conversation. But as time went on, I realized as we grew, as we grew together, I'm like, man, I look around me, I'm like, who built this? Probably men, you know what I mean? I understand that, you know, we live in a country where it's like, if you want to go work in construction as a female, go for it. Teasi Cannon (34:52) Right, right, yeah. Melissa Dougherty (34:54) Who cares if you wanna go be an engineer, if you want to go help ⁓ put together society, go for it. The thing is though, is that this is what I realized, and this was a hard lesson for me to learn, is that we are actually wired a different way. that we complement each other. That was so eye-opening. And I love that. Like there was something about that that just was so healing for me. And the second thing, ⁓ this is so big, but there's a lot here, but I guess I'm gonna put it all in one succinct phrase of people pleasing. Where, yeah, where... Teasi Cannon (35:30) Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (35:35) I didn't want people to ever be mad at me. I wanted everybody to like me. And let me tell you when that went out the window was when I had my first child. ⁓ There are these seasons in my life where the hardest times I've ever gone through were the greatest times of growth. And. everything, my world. I felt like I had culture shock. That's the best way I can put it after, because I was knee deep in new thought teachings and I'm in a mindset, okay? I'm manifesting, okay? I am visualizing, I'm speaking my existence, I'm reading all these garbage books. ⁓ I am doing all the things right, TC. I'm doing everything right. And I'm like, yeah, I'm powerful. I'm this, I'm that. And then I got pregnant. Teasi Cannon (36:09) Right. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (36:27) Loving the pregnancy and I'm this is where really where it started happening the cracks started showing was I'm visualizing the type of pregnancy birth I wanted to have ⁓ And I am so convinced everything's gonna go a certain way right like man. It's gonna be a natural birth It's gonna be this it's gonna be that No, it was like a 180 not I was two weeks late I went 42 weeks and I had to be induced ⁓ Teasi Cannon (36:53) Wow. Melissa Dougherty (36:55) At seven o'clock at night, by the way. I don't recommend that. So was up all night. I was up all the next day. I was up the night before. It was a 25 hour labor. I didn't sleep at all. And I remember being so depressed after this, because I'm like, what happened? And that's really where the cracks started showing. But I was not OK after I had my baby. Like I had maybe postpartum, baby blues. It was just such a culture shock. Teasi Cannon (36:59) Mm. Melissa Dougherty (37:24) I remember getting up to feed my baby and walking down the hallway and I like almost fainted. Like I fell to my knees because I got so dizzy and I'm like, I'm not okay. And I realized, I'm like, I don't want anybody to come over today. No, I don't want to answer the phone. No, you can't come over unannounced. Like boundaries, I learned boundaries. I got forced into them because I was dying. Teasi Cannon (37:42) Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (37:48) I'm like, no, I need to be alone. And I learned how to say no and not feel guilty about it. it was so freeing. Teasi Cannon (37:51) Yeah. Huge. Melissa Dougherty (38:02) Yeah, so all that, I was delivered in the name of Jesus. Teasi Cannon (38:03) you were delivered from people pleasing and you realized manifesting wasn't working with a newborn. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (38:11) I was done, and was done. And from there, it was so freeing because I learned to balance. Where, okay, if I have a boundary and I'm clear about it and I'm polite, right? Like I'm not being this jerk about it. Because I had to be a little bit direct at first. I'm like, no, can't, please do not come over. I need a nap. Teasi Cannon (38:24) right. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (38:33) Okay, like no, I don't need that. Okay, so it's from there. But I also had to learn how to let people own their own feelings. okay, so everybody wants to think that, okay, empathy, right? Sympathy and empathy, those are good things. But I don't know how to say this. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (38:34) Right. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (38:57) People who want to say that they have the gift of empathy, I want to challenge you with this. Because I'm not saying that this is bad and I want to be very careful with how I posture this. But in my experience, especially dealing with a lot of people in the new age and in new thought and people who actually think that they do have this gift of empathy, it's a little backwards to me that when somebody is suffering, deeply suffering, that you have to kind of come in and say, I'm suffering too. In other words, I don't know how to say this so that this lands, but it's not about you. So if that empathy is making it so that you can somehow have access to that, to what they're going through, therefore you equate that with, know exactly how you're feeling, I know what you're going through. Teasi Cannon (39:33) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (39:56) I, I, I, me, me, me, me. And that pattern was so frustrating. Because I'm like, can you just be with me and not try to make it about you feeling something that I'm feeling? Like, I understand that empathy is good and sympathy, yes. But there's, I wanna say it's almost, there's almost a selfishness, right? Where we kind of always, yeah, I don't know how, maybe you can help me word that. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (39:58) Right. Mm-hmm. There can be. ⁓ No, I understand what you're saying. It's like when, you know, we can be empathetic, can be very beautiful, but if the focus of it is for the other person, like if it's a self-absorbed empathy, that's just trying to loop it back to ourselves, whereas, you know, Melissa Dougherty (40:32) and they don't realize it. Teasi Cannon (40:37) I feel like biblical empathy, like Christ-like empathy is, I love knowing that we have a ⁓ high priest who sympathizes with our weakness, that he understands that he was tempted as we are, that there's that. Jesus knows what we feel. Melissa Dougherty (40:53) Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (40:54) It benefits us because we know we're not alone. I think there's two different ways for us to be empathetic with one another. Melissa Dougherty (41:00) This brings up an actual example of this. Maybe this might help with what we're saying. Again, it's one of those topics where it's like, want to be careful. I was going through something shortly after I had my baby and it was a nurse that I had become friends with, right? Because you go in for like, what do they call it? Lactation consultation. And so you go in and you become friends with people. And I'm like lamenting in a way, right? To this woman. Teasi Cannon (41:21) Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (41:30) And she's sitting there she's listening and she's nodding and I feel like, dude, like, I love it when people lean in, okay? I love it when people lean in and they genuinely care about what you're going through. And then she said... Teasi Cannon (41:39) Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (41:45) It's like she was advertising it. I'm an empath. I'm an empath. And let me just tell you that I completely feel what you're feeling. it was not bringing it back to like, my gosh, like that must be so difficult for you. Like, tell me about this. Tell me about that. Or. Teasi Cannon (41:49) gosh, yeah. right. Melissa Dougherty (42:06) or like you're genuinely interested in what this person is saying. Like she was advertising this spiritual gift that she had. And it completely felt like, ⁓ this is about you. Like I didn't understand that at the time in hindsight, I'm like this. So that's a whole other side thing, but it helped me kind of with the people pleasing. And then I'll bring it back to like really how this, I saw that this is a. Teasi Cannon (42:10) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (42:33) very deeply embedded scriptural thing, especially after I got into ministry, right? because then I had to learn ⁓ more about that line with boundaries ⁓ that I can't own your feelings. I am not responsible for how you feel unless I have sinned. Teasi Cannon (42:48) Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (42:54) If I have sinned and I have hurt you, I own it and I repents. I'm like, my gosh, I am so sorry. I need to make this right. ⁓ Versus, I have not sinned and your reaction is your pain, right? Like your, so me saying no and having that boundary has hurt you. I'm like, well, don't you care about me? But I'm like, of course I care about you. Teasi Cannon (42:54) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (43:24) You know, like, that's not what I'm saying at all. You know what I mean? It's like, I understand what you're feeling and saying, but I cannot and will not take on your feelings and feel guilty, because then there's an unwilling manipulation. It's all unpacked, okay? I'm unpacking a lot here, but this is what I've learned, is own your stuff and let people own their own stuff. That was revolutionary to me. ⁓ It's helped me. Teasi Cannon (43:36) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (43:53) argue better so that I know when I'm wrong. That's really big because it's like, okay, I'm being very prideful right now. I get it, whatever it is. It helps you be a better ambassador for Christ. Teasi Cannon (43:58) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (44:07) That's really when I started picking up on, like the question I asked you recently, I'm like, well, can narcissists repent? Can they actually see how they are? I there's questions that I'm asking, because I want to know more, to recognize it, and to understand when I'm confronted with that so I don't own it, so that I'm not manipulated. And there's something in that when it comes to our own Teasi Cannon (44:19) Yeah, right. Right. Melissa Dougherty (44:36) our emotional IQ, if you will, our own emotional intelligence. And ⁓ it was in researching them that I started realizing how scriptural this is. Loving God with all your heart and your mind, thinking critically, the apologetics aspect, knowing what you believe and why you believe it. Even Jesus did this. People want to make Jesus into this teddy bear. They want to make him into this inclusive, walking coexist sticker. I... Teasi Cannon (44:53) Thank Mm-hmm. Right. Melissa Dougherty (45:04) I would not want to follow a Jesus like that. Give me a Jesus that knows how to say no. Give me a Jesus that can love you while also telling you how to repent. Like that's, that is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That's the God worthy of my worship. And so when it just helped me love scripture and Jesus even more when I saw this displayed within the words of scripture. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (45:08) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Yeah. That's so good. seeing Jesus so often. mean, think about, there were times when he healed everyone in the crowd. I mean, at least you're reading through the gospels and you see, and everyone was healed and he preached the good news of the gospel. But then there's times when he got away. And you think about in his earthly ministry, there's gotta be countless people he didn't talk to at the time. He didn't reach out and heal them at the time. He had very strong, healthy personal boundaries. because he said, I only do what the father tells me to do. And I think I am still in that healing process as well. People pleasing is something that just loops around and loops around because we are inundated with comparisons, especially on social media. And you're just like, my goodness. yeah, yeah, we could go on a whole nother hour with that. And just that's why I think the failure thing and the rejection thing is something I have to knock down regularly. But Melissa Dougherty (46:08) comparison. ⁓ comparison. It will kill you. ⁓ Yeah. Teasi Cannon (46:22) I think this is where, just to bring it back around to the fact that God's truth is so healing and so freeing. Teasi Cannon (46:32) that's what I hear you talking about. I know there was a lot in there and I understand completely, especially the postpartum stuff, the depression, the wanting the right help when you actually need it. And I think there's so much wisdom there, but before we go, know I've kept you, I don't wanna take your time, too much of your time, but before we go, Melissa Dougherty (46:51) I don't know. Teasi Cannon (46:54) I would love for you to share with us, like when you are tempted to think that the Christian worldview, mean, which undergirds your joy now, like you mentioned early on that what keeps you going even when you do take two weeks to do nothing, when you don't feel it, the truth from God's word, the biblical worldview, when you're tempted, or if you are, I I know I still am, days when I'm like, I just? Melissa Dougherty (47:21) Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (47:24) Am I crazy for believing this? When your brain goes to that, what is like the evidence that is your favorite or that your brain first off goes to to remind you, no, you're not a fool? Is there one, if not, or maybe there's a couple or... Melissa Dougherty (47:34) man. Yeah. multiple places. ⁓ One of the things that I love learning about in seminary, it's a fancy word and I love saying it now, but I hated it at first because it was so hard to say, but it's called prolegomena. And it's like first principles, the things before the things. ⁓ In other words... Teasi Cannon (47:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (48:02) Does truth exist? Is God real? And do miracles happen, right? And again, critical thinking philosophy, these are the kinds of things they deal with. And so if truth exists, there has to be a divine intelligence that has to love truth. And learning about that, like natural law, the law of morality. Teasi Cannon (48:11) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Melissa Dougherty (48:25) ⁓ those are the things that you cannot deny. You can be mad at God all you want, but you have to suppress that, And then the second thing is the resurrection. ⁓ If you have, you know, like the apostles dying for what they believe. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (48:32) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (48:43) learning to trust the Bible was a big one. I didn't completely trust it. And so understanding how the Bible was put together, where it came from, ⁓ the prophecies in the Old Testament, it's impressive. That's really impressive. I'm like, man, you've got to do a lot to kind of deny that. Teasi Cannon (48:47) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (49:00) But the resurrection is something that I kind of cling to. And then This is gonna sound like a weird one, but lately I've been thinking about this, where I have purposely tried to look for anybody in any religion, even secular positions, where... They're like, give me what you got. Give me what you got. Give me everything you have that would contradict or deny or... Teasi Cannon (49:37) demolish or, yeah. Melissa Dougherty (49:37) demolish my belief and give me all you got, right? Let's look at it, let's examine it. Teasi Cannon (49:42) Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (49:44) In other words, I don't see anybody else making this position. ⁓ Muslims, LDS, Jehovah's Witnesses, ⁓ the ideological worldview warriors of our day are not saying, give me what you got. They deny it. They're like, nope, mm-mm, nope. Teasi Cannon (49:58) Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (50:04) I can't look at that, right? That is impressive to me because you have apologists who are ready and willing to have that posture of attitude because if it's true, it'll stand on its own. So there's something about the Christian worldview. Teasi Cannon (50:05) Right. Right. Melissa Dougherty (50:25) So those are like the three pillars so far that I kind of, and there's probably more, this is just what's coming into my mind right now. yeah, I, so days when I just want to go hide in the closet and just kind of hide, you know, are okay because what you believe is true. And it doesn't necessarily mean that Teasi Cannon (50:29) Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (50:49) Like this is why boundaries are important, like what we talking about before. Like you're not selfish. That's a lie. If I keep going, right? So it's potentially, I'm in a season of burnout a little bit right now, say I keep going, I might potentially, if I still feel this way in a few weeks, I might be like, hey guys, I need a break. You know what I mean? And that's okay. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (50:55) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (51:15) But if I keep going like this, it's actually bad for your mental health, know? And your family and everything, yeah. Teasi Cannon (51:19) and your family and your kids, know, yeah. mean, they're burning out for the sake of pleasing the masses isn't good. But you know, one thing I just, I love hearing you say is you could have kept going and going and going on evidences and lines of reasoning that substantiate your faith. and that is one of the most beautiful things about studying why we believe what we believe. And what you said, like the apostle Paul is the one that I think of Melissa Dougherty (51:27) Mm-mm. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (51:48) all the time saying, hey, if Christ is not raised, we're all fools. And he did what you just said. He put it out there like, hey, here's Christianity's self-destruct button, punch it. But in your saying, in all the other worldviews that you've looked at, no one is saying, here's our self-destruct button, punch it. Because they can't. And Christianity, exactly. Melissa Dougherty (51:58) Yeah. Yes. Either you have leaders saying, don't look at this, or, and I'm like, no, go look at that. Teasi Cannon (52:16) I feel like that is a great piece of encouragement to everyone. If in any situation, if anyone is dissuading you from looking at evidence or looking into something, if you ever hear, don't watch that, don't read that, that's a red flag. I mean, unless it's someone saying that's, you know, like I'm thinking of kids and we're like, we don't want you to watch this movie because you can't handle it. But as an adult person, especially if it has the potential to Melissa Dougherty (52:19) Yeah. Do it. yes, that's funny, yeah. Teasi Cannon (52:45) poke holes in their case. That is definitely a red flag. But we have a faith, we have a worldview that stands tall. Christianity stands tall against all ⁓ opposition if we're willing to do the work. There hasn't been a single doubt that I've had that I haven't found a substantial answer to, and a satisfying answer to, if I was willing to take the time to go read. Like, how do I trust the Bible? Why do I trust the Bible? Melissa Dougherty (52:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (53:14) a bit of time to learn about textual criticism and all of those things, but it's there to find. And therefore, every promise in God's Word can stand. ⁓ And that is what we want people to know here is that Melissa Dougherty (53:18) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (53:34) God's comfort isn't like the comfort this world offers. That is counterfeit. It's fading and fickle and easily pulled apart. We don't need that when we're broken. We need truth that we can count on. And so, I mean, you're just showing a beautiful example of how much there is to draw upon. You were just getting started. You could have kept going and going. So. Melissa Dougherty (53:59) Yeah, yeah, know, and two final things to add to that, but it is important to recognize the context in which we're saying to look at this information, right? Somebody's telling you not to look at pornography. I don't want you to take what we're saying and be like, no, I should look at it. I mean, yeah, I think that there's ⁓ some common sense to what we're saying in that regard. And the second thing, and I'll leave it with this, ⁓ is that ⁓ because... Teasi Cannon (54:09) Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yes, right. ⁓ Right. Melissa Dougherty (54:27) when we know something, right? So we can have faith in the things that we don't quite understand. Like there are things, especially like in Genesis, for example, that I'm like, I don't understand this. Like, I don't get it. I actually have a lot of hard questions about this or that or whatever, but you go from the known to the unknown. Teasi Cannon (54:38) Yeah. Melissa Dougherty (54:47) It means that the things that you don't know are okay. I'm like, I'm okay. I mean, I'm not okay, but I am okay. Like, I don't feel like it's gonna wreck my faith if I don't have every single answer laid out for me, you know, very clearly because of these things that I know are substantial, have evidence, these very good reasons to believe the Christian faith. Then I'm like, ⁓ I can, I... Teasi Cannon (54:51) Yeah. Yes. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Melissa Dougherty (55:13) I'm all right, like you go from the known to the unknown. And so I kind of want to leave it with that is that because of those things that we can know, the things that are unknown or maybe the things that you struggle with are a little bit more easier to have faith on until you learn more about it. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (55:21) Yeah. Right. I love that. Yes, and there will be things we won't know. And if you feel like you need to have an airtight case with no possible doubt, you're not going to find it anywhere. There's not going to be a worldview that's going to give you that. And so with Christianity, what we believe we have is the most reasonable, the most substantiated. ⁓ Melissa Dougherty (55:40) Yeah. Teasi Cannon (55:52) framework for making sense of reality, our own identity, who we are as women, who we are as God's daughters, who we are, you know, all of that. And that is something that is, ⁓ it's a treasure. God's been so good to give us so much evidence to cling to when we are looking into the things we don't understand. We can trust that he is faithful. And so I just want to thank you again, Melissa. Melissa Dougherty (56:00) Identity, yes. Teasi Cannon (56:20) you so much for sharing your heart, sharing your honest journey, your new boundaries, all the things you know just thank you for being real and honest with us and if I want to thank you guys for listening as well if you're listening if you have been blessed, encouraged, feel seen and know that you're not alone or you have a friend someone you know that could be really encouraged by this conversation I would love for you to subscribe and share it also don't forget to take a look at the show notes and to find more about Melissa's incredible ministry and her wonderful book that I highly recommend and I thank you once again for being here and please don't ⁓ forget to subscribe so that you don't miss a single moment of true comfort. Thank you so much.