Latest / Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40 / This Over 50 Family Man Lost His Power Belly (36 Pounds) But NOT His Muscle or Strength! | Ep 187

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This Over 50 Family Man Lost His Power Belly (36 Pounds) But NOT His Muscle or Strength! | Ep 187 · Wits & Weights | Strength & Fat Loss Over 40

• 0:01
  Philip Pape: If you're over 40, juggling a demanding job, family commitments and trying to stay fit, this episode is for you.
• 0:08
  Philip Pape: Maybe you've been lifting for years but struggled to get your nutrition Right. Or perhaps you've lost touch with your physicality with all of life's responsibilities. You're eager to reclaim your health to lose fat feel strong again, but the challenges seem overwhelming. In today's episode, we are talking to someone just like you who managed to lose 36 pounds of body fat and five inches off his waist despite a busy lifestyle and without losing his hard earned muscle or strength.
• 0:42
  Philip Pape: Today I have longtime client Jerry Banano on the show. Like I mentioned in the intro, Jerry used the Whitson weights approach of working smarter and more efficiently to shed 36 pounds of fat and five inches off his waist in his 50s.
• 0:54
  Philip Pape: Without losing his muscle size or strength. We'll explore how he balanced the demanding job, family commitments and community responsibilities while making significant strides in his physical health. In this episode, we'll discuss how he did it and what you can do to replicate his results. Jerry, I'm super excited to have you on the show. Great to be here.
• 1:14
  Philip Pape: Thanks.
• 1:15
  Jerry Bonanno: Appreciate it.
• 1:16
  Philip Pape: So let's set the scene here. Right you train your your handle on Instagrams at the basement ape, right basement ape. Yeah, and you're about to start your next training session, I want you to take us there into that dark, dank basement gym of yours. What is running through your mind as you prepare to lift? What emotions are bubbling up, walk us through the sights and sounds of training as Jerry, from that electric anticipation before you grab the bar to the raw intensity of each rep, paint us a picture of Jerry's world?
• 1:46
  Jerry Bonanno: Well, I wish I could not. I wish I could fill that in. But here's Well, I train like a lot of people who are trying to juggle a lot of different things, I train pretty much first thing in the morning.
• 1:54
  Jerry Bonanno: So I'll take you from the point where my alarm goes off, which is usually around 4:30am. And the first thought that comes to mind is not any of that it's go back to sleep. Good one. Yeah.
• 2:06
  Jerry Bonanno: So typically, literally, that's the first thought that goes through my head, like everybody kind of struggled to get enough sleep. So I'm usually working on six, six and a half hours asleep, and I catch up sometimes on the weekends. But typically then just convinced myself to get out of bed, usually I'd only takes a few minutes, which is good. And then honestly, these days, I'm not really commuting every day, I'm working from home most days, which is great because I can eat before I train. So usually go down and get something to eat and pretty much the same thing every day, and combination of some carbs and about 40 grams of protein.
• 2:44
  Jerry Bonanno: And usually then can let that settle for about 20 minutes. So I have that luxury. And then I'll go down into the basement.
• 2:52
  Jerry Bonanno: And you know, right now, I mean I'm, I'm training on a six day a week kind of body parts split when Andy Baker's bodybuilding templates. So usually there's one big lift involved, there are heavier kind of barbell oriented lifts or something that I'm really pushing hard to progress on. And then after that, there'll be some more kind of like by building movements that are usually higher rep things that I can move a little bit faster on. So typically when I first start, as far as warming up, I use the movement that I'm going to do to warm up I don't do any really special warm up.
• 3:24
  Jerry Bonanno: Usually something hurts whether it's you know, to a mild to moderate degree, I'd say about a third of the time, it's my mid back through the time, it's my left shoulder and a third of the time, I'm pretty much paying for it. So that's the reality of it, you know, when you get up to the ripe old age of 50, I guess so.
• 3:40
  Jerry Bonanno: With that I'll usually like I said, I'll start with warm ups in on that they move it and then move through that that usually takes the longest and then I can really get the session going from there and usually get done in about an hour, maybe some 45 minutes to 75 minutes if I'm really kind of moving a little bit slow that day or there's a lot of stuff to move around in the basement. I can do most things down there. I mean, I have a power rack barbell couple specialty bars, machine
• 4:10
  Philip Pape: press. You got a machine press yeah
• 4:14
  Jerry Bonanno: that was my my one of my favorite recent pickups. Yeah, that tighten shoulder press and you know, lateral raise machine that I got pretty used but it was pretty much right out of the box and I look for stuff with a small footprint. I don't have a tremendous amount of space. So I let tower and a shoulder press machine like you mentioned and I have a bench rack it's the tighten, rip off of the west side bench rack, which works just fine for me and you know, that's probably frivolous. I could probably bench in my squat rack but I like having that set up and you know I can just jump on it when I'm done and have an adjustable bench and a couple of heavy dumbbells for rowing and stuff like that. And that's about it. I think I have a 40 to 45 degree back raise too so not a lot of crazy hold you up.
• 4:57
  Jerry Bonanno: Yeah,
• 5:01
  Philip Pape: yeah. And so So it's funny because I gave you this really dramatic setup. And then the answer is, you know what, I'm a discipline guy, I have a routine, I have the same kind of temptation and friction as everyone else. First person, when you get up in the morning, I just want to hit that snooze.
• 5:15
  Philip Pape: But it's like, you just do this and actually love that answer.
• 5:18
  Philip Pape: Because people listening, you know, they're always looking for some big secret or some big motivation. And, and it really, it isn't that it's like the bread and butter basics of just you got to get into this routine and do it right.
• 5:29
  Jerry Bonanno: I think it's funny, because, like, especially after I lost the weight with you lost the body fat with you really changed the way I live is always big and stronger, or whatever. But now, shutting that body fat really has kind of, I think, improve the way I look.
• 5:43
  Jerry Bonanno: So now especially people like well, what do you do? You know, what do you do, and it's like, I did the same thing I did 15 years ago, essentially, outside of nutrition, which is just get up. And it's like, it's always the first step. And it's always the same first step, you know, and then you just keep going from there. So, you know, there's, there's no secret, but I will say, you know, once you develop that discipline, and you start seeing results, you know, the motivation does build, you start stepping into identity a little bit instead of chasing it. So you're, you know, it gets better as you go along, especially when you taste a little bit of success. So you
• 6:21
  Philip Pape: step into the identity, rather than chase it, that's gold man like that really is like, because we do talk about having this feature identity. And people are like, Well, yeah, that's great. But you know, I have this huge gut, or I'm not very strong or whatever. And it's like, you just have to start take those steps. And it doesn't have to be hard. You know, we're going to talk about some of the steps in here where even Jerry after all those years of, you know, lifting and knowing how to do that the nutrition, there were still some, some gaps, maybe some knowledge gaps and process gaps that had to be filled, in which no shame in that, right, we all get to learn some of that somewhere, and then apply it.
• 6:52
  Philip Pape: You mentioned when you work out, you warm up, you know, with your lift, you have a big lift some accessories, and usually something hurts I think that's the most important thing to talk about for a second. For us, older guys, women and men. And you've said left shoulder, it's the same shoulder for me, because that's how I have my surgery. But mid back, you know, a little back fatigue, mid back fatigue shoulder, sometimes your pain free, does it stop you in any way? Or how do you work with that?
• 7:15
  Jerry Bonanno: No, I mean, pain is kind of one of those things, that's, you know, you have to kind of, it's a little bit individual. I mean, I know I'm not injured, you know, I know myself by now, right? So you have to be careful. I mean, you shouldn't be in agonizing pain, do with anything, you know, you need to kind of stop and reevaluate if that's the case.
• 7:33
  Jerry Bonanno: But, you know, for me, it's like my back hurts, mostly because I've slept on my stomach, you know, since I was eight or nine years old, and I'm trying to break myself that habit, but it's pretty hard. So I don't think that's been great for my back. And then a couple years ago, I had a hernia repaired really electively, it wasn't a problem. And I came back a little too fast from that and actually tweaked my back for the first time ever and never had back issues. And so that lingers a little bit. But you know that and I think shoulders is just trying to push by bench up over 400 pounds a couple years ago and bench to leak and a lot of flat benching did kind of tight my shoulders up a little bit. So got some of that mobility back by changing my training up a little bit. And think things like that. So the I think aches and pains are not necessarily injuries, right. So I think you got to you learn how to figure yourself out as you go. But I think you should anticipate at least a little bit of this kind of hurts this thing that we do sometimes.
• 8:34
  Philip Pape: So it's uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, you
• 8:37
  Jerry Bonanno: shouldn't like like, you know, I guess there's a distinction, you shouldn't really be a joint really hurts or something is amiss, you should definitely honor that.
• 8:46
  Jerry Bonanno: But you're gonna feel it from time to time. And sometimes you just need to take it slow and train through it. And hopefully, it's nothing. And usually by the, you know, after the warm ups, the pain is pretty much gone. You know? So, yeah,
• 8:59
  Philip Pape: yeah, I think that's important. It's something I think about a lot too. And I recently posted something about pain and bad form. And somebody chimed in and said, Well, it's not really the bad form. It's just something that you're unprepared for, you know, you're not you haven't trained for whatever it is. And that's why you don't want to just jump into things and not warm up. But also, if you know yourself, like this morning, I did shoulder press, dumbbell shoulder presses the second week in a row after several months of not doing them because of my shoulder. And it's painful when I start warming up, but it's a pain that I know will warm into it, go away, and then I'll be able to respond and guess what will happen the next day actually feel a lot better.
• 9:34
  Philip Pape: And you kind of have to learn that about your body. Right?
• 9:36
  Philip Pape: That it's, you balance it and don't use it as an excuse, but you also got to be smart about it. Yeah,
• 9:43
  Jerry Bonanno: you should definitely pay attention to it.
• 9:45
  Jerry Bonanno: Don't Don't ignore it, you know, note that it's there. And then, you know, like I said, just take it slow warm up. You mentioned the shoulder press machine that that machine has been great for me. I think it's really made a difference in my shoulder training. But you know, every time I sit down on it The first to warm up sets, it's like, Man, my shoulders are kind of feeling it by the time I get to the third or fourth set the pains gone. And I'm pretty good to go.
• 10:06
  Jerry Bonanno: So sometimes, like you said, it's just warming up. It just getting through that initial kind of body's just saying, Okay, this is what you want me to do. And you're kind of limbering up and not being so tired. I think sometimes there's a reflex when you get into a position that's a little stretched, and you tighten up, and it causes a little bit of discomfort or pain. So yeah, pain is tricky. But I think there's going to be some level of discomfort if you're going to list especially over the long term. So yeah,
• 10:34
  Philip Pape: cool, man. So what I want to do now is kind of like they do in the movies, or in a good TV show that we'll talk a little bit about the recent before, after, or the recent before we started working together. And then we're gonna do like the flashback like 10 years ago, or 20 or 30 years ago, and kind of work back because I want to tie these concepts together. So kind of the status quo here of where were you before we started working together? Like around that moment? You know, why you reached out your physical, your mental state? And you're like, Okay, I gotta do something different. Okay, yeah,
• 11:07
  Jerry Bonanno: so we started working together, it was almost just just a little over a year ago, I think, July 1, last year, we started our first, you know, three month cut. And I think where it was then is, I was pretty big and strong, but I was too heavy. I mean, I had known that for a while I was hovering around like 250, and I'm only five, nine. So it's a lot of weight to be hauled around, I didn't have a lot of like, you know, subcutaneous kind of jiggly fat, but I had a pretty good power belly going. And I just, you know, when I hit, when I was approaching 50, I always told myself, like, I was pushing my strength was from my strength had competed for a little while, you know, and local powerlifting meets and things like that. So, but I always told myself, you're really too heavy, you know, to be heading into your 50s, there's no reason for you to be this heavy. And as that birthday approached, that was in December, I had tried a few times on my own had, you know, had some temporary success, but really never got my arms around nutrition the way I did when I started working with you. And then you know, we're both in the same kind of lifting club so so you in there knew that you lifted knew you, you know, you're not, you're not quite as old as me, but you have some gray hair. So I said, Well, this guy's you know, he seems to be have a relatively kind of demanding and normal life. And he's lifting and doing this stuff. And so I said, Well, I think he'd be a good person to work with and some other folks in the group had worked with you. So I really mentally, I was in a position where I don't like when I know I have to do something, and I can't, I can't get it done, it bothers me. So this is something that I just I knew for a while, like, you need to get your arms around this and get it under control. Because frankly, you know, my bloodwork at that time, I was kind of, you know, if there's the four or five indicators for metabolic syndrome, I had been told a couple of times, like, I wouldn't quite diagnose you with metabolic syndrome. But, and that's only because you're you have so much muscle going on.
• 13:08
  Jerry Bonanno: But if that starts to tank, like you're gonna be in that space real quick. So I have kids that are relatively young, we want in high school want to go into middle school. So I thought, and that's a more life to do here.
• 13:18
  Jerry Bonanno: And I'd like to do it in a way that doesn't have me, you know, in a really unhealthy place. So that's where it was before we started. Yeah,
• 13:27
  Philip Pape: and there's a lot of that, like, personal values in there, which are important.
• 13:29
  Philip Pape: We talk about people's you know, why and why they do things. And that's, that's super deep for you. So it kind of makes it I'll see easy to make that decision in a way. First of all, thanks for telling me that my gray hair actually served me well. It's kind of funny, because once it started Gray, and I'm like, actually look older I because I used to be up till the age of like 3035 Like, look like a 20 year old. So, you know, I keep the six o'clock shadow. But um, yeah, you said you had had some temporary success in the past. I do want to talk about that. But your bloodwork was maybe getting a little worse. However, you had a lot of muscle I use guys like you and you in particular as a good case study for folks as to why muscle centric health is important. And we shouldn't just focus on weight loss because the effort you put in all those years to build muscle is really helping you as a buffer as a massive buffer. I mean, huge buffer against the health issues where you could carry a lot of excess weight according to BMI standards, and still be in that normal range. So but not where you want to be ultimately. So that makes sense. Okay, you were doing carnivore before we met, right? Or it's one of the things you've done. I
• 14:36
  Jerry Bonanno: did a stint on carnivore. That was probably the last thing I really tried before we we got together. And yeah, I just you know, I have a history of type two diabetes in my family. And so, you know, I thought, well, I'm probably not great on all these cards and the processed food that I'm eating, and so I was looking around for something that was pretty straightforward, even though it was very restricted. I mean, that's kind of the two sides of, of something like carnivore, it's, it's very restrictive, but it's not that complicated to implement, because you can only eat a couple things, you know, so that, you know, I'll give it its do it, I lost 13, or 14 pounds on it and then leveled out because I really wasn't tracking my calories or anything like that it was just, like, cut out a bunch of stuff. So but you know, it was very hard to sustain, you know, finding steak and eggs, you know, and other stuff constantly to eat while you're trying to work, or you're at a meeting or you're here or you're there, you're traveling can get challenging. And so, you know, I just stopped doing it, because I couldn't sustain it.
• 15:38
  Jerry Bonanno: And then you know, that a little time passed. And then after that I came to you, but you know, those I know, you know, for people that have specific, maybe conditions that works, but for me, it worked. I couldn't tell why it worked. Because there was so many variables that were adjusted at the same time, you know, but it wasn't a long term solution. And frankly, I feel just as good now eating a good balance of macros, then, as I did, then, probably better. So yeah,
• 16:09
  Philip Pape: yeah, more carbs.
• 16:09
  Philip Pape: And like you said, yeah, when you're traveling or just anywhere, you have to rely on someone else for food man, just trying to find protein alone.
• 16:18
  Philip Pape: Yeah, let alone just a pure like carnivore style diet is going to be, you know, it's expensive food, it's usually has to be cooked, like, you know, so. So instead, they put out the sandwiches, and they put out the croissants and all that good stuff. Right? Right. So it was simple, but restrictive, which we hear constantly when it comes to these diets, you know, and I've been there myself with keto and Atkins back in the day and everything. But it's like, yeah, simple list of foods, just eat this. Don't eat that. And you're like, in the real world? No, it doesn't work. Right. What? So that's one of the obstacles, it wasn't sustainable. Is there anything else that comes to mind before we worked that, you know, later on you, you gain some insight into?
• 16:53
  Jerry Bonanno: Um, I mean, me personally, it did. I think the other thing it did that, you know, that helped was I wasn't eating anything processed.
• 17:00
  Jerry Bonanno: Right. And so that that was another helpful, you know, attribute of that, I think, mostly, it was just that it wasn't something I was going to be able to do for the long term.
• 17:09
  Jerry Bonanno: And, you know, it wasn't, I mean, there's other foods you want to eat, you know, that that are just that you're eliminating? I mean, I'm not super, I always joke that I grew up with some really good cooks.
• 17:22
  Jerry Bonanno: And so I'm kind of over it. I'll never get food that could again, you know, as like my grandmother, or my uncle's cooked, or my mom and dad. Yeah.
• 17:28
  Jerry Bonanno: So, but my wife had great affection. I should take that back. She has she cooks really well. But But yeah, it's it's just that I'm not super attached to specific foods. But I mean, there's really not a lot of variety there. So it just wasn't something I was going to be able to do, you know, for the rest of my life and realization after four or five months,
• 17:49
  Philip Pape: you know, yeah.
• 17:49
  Philip Pape: Now, there's a concept. There's a concept that you've talked about physicality. And I want to get into that, because I want to tie that into why besides health, right, why you want to lose fat and how it connects to your training, because you're a lifter, we want people to lift, we want people to get strong, and a lot of people may not have the history you do of doing it all those years. But regardless, it's an important thing. If you permit me, I'm going to read something that you wrote to me.
• 18:14
  Philip Pape: Sure. And I'm going to try to do it in like a dramatic documentary voice. If that works, and then we'll see if we can throw some music behind it.
• 18:22
  Philip Pape: So just came up with this. Let me let me give it a shot. All right. Yeah. Like a lot of men of his vintage Jerry binotto started training for sports in high school. Growing up on a steady stream of Arnold action movies in the 80s. Jerry played football and wrestling training hard from age 13 to 23. But then he lost touch with his physicality, focusing on work graduate school law school, starting a family and getting his career off the ground. He found himself in his early 30s, having accomplished a lot in those areas, but in a less optimal place physically.
• 18:54
  Philip Pape: Despite being extremely busy, he started taking steps in earnest to get back in touch with his physicality. He rekindled his love of lifting and has been training consistently and hard for the past 15 years. Jerry is a big believer in men being unreasonable about prioritizing their physicality, as they hit middle age and continuing to train hard into their 40s 50s and beyond. Sometimes you just need to be in Jerry's own words, too stupid to quit. All right, so maybe it wasn't as dramatic with the music. It might be.
• 19:30
  Philip Pape: We'll see. I have to ask how stupid adequate Are you? And how unreasonably Do you now prioritize your physicality?
• 19:37
  Philip Pape: What does that mean?
• 19:38
  Jerry Bonanno: Okay, well, yeah, so, as far as the physicality thing goes, I mean, I think that I'll get a little metaphysical here. But look, no matter what your face system is, or what you believe, or don't believe, like our experience here on Earth, is we live it in our physical bodies. There's no escaping that right. So, you know, this is what you have while you're here.
• 20:00
  Jerry Bonanno: and all of your experiences are going to be filtered through this kind of physical, you know, show that you inhabit. So, you know, to me, if you don't pay attention to that your experience here is not going to be what it should be. And so, you know, that's kind of on the deepest level. But I mean, you know, everybody wants their clothes to fit and to look the way they want to look. And I did grow up on a steady stream of Arnold movies. And, you know, Carl Weathers and you know, Lou Ferrigno, and semester Stallone and all that stuff. So, you know, as a little kid, you're looking at that and said, Whoa, you know, that's pretty awesome.
• 20:32
  Jerry Bonanno: Like, I could do that. I could handle that. And what's your favorite of those movies are like Commando, but okay, you know, you know, I promise I kill you last and all that stuff. I like that whole thing. But anyways, um, so yeah, so that is kind of the physicality part.
• 20:50
  Jerry Bonanno: And a lot of times, you know, we're, when you're running around trying to get from point A to point B, especially over a period of years, which would happen to me from my mid 20s, to like my mid 30s, you know, you lose track of that. And I had started when I was young. And with that, it was really important, in kind of my formation, a lot of these really physical kind of experiences, like you mentioned, with sports and things, and then that all went away, and covered a lot of ground and other areas, but like you said, just had lost kind of that piece. So I think, struggled to get back into it. I mean, I went in a few different directions, and then came back to lifting for the reason that I think it attracted me first, which, which is that it was really one of those things is there where it's like, you think there's something wrong with you, or you're not where you think you should be. And you can actually fix it almost exclusively on your own, you don't have to show up at a class at a certain time, you don't have to deal with an instructor, you don't have to, you have to do any of that. If you don't want to, you could do this, it's basically up to you. And being kind of a naturally, you know, introverted, shy or type person.
• 21:53
  Jerry Bonanno: That was awesome. It's like, okay, so there's something not right about me, and I can actually fix it, you know, I can do that. And so that was encouraging. Some people get discouraged by that, if they're the solution, and maybe part of the problem, I find that super encouraging, it's harder to change other people than it is to change yourself. So but in order to do that, as the demands kind of pile up, you have to be what I say is like, you have to be unreasonable about it. And I can give you a kind of an example with me when you know, pre COVID I was, I had a very long commute in and out of work, pretty demanding job, like young family, all that kind of stuff.
• 22:31
  Jerry Bonanno: And it was a lot of commuting, I mean, no, no BS, it was close to four hours a day community. So it's like, okay, I want to build lifting back into my life. So how am I going to do that. So basically had to get up at 415 every day for about 11 years, and just went to the gym, then.
• 22:49
  Jerry Bonanno: And then, or all my stuff got ready and went to work. And, you know, tried to do that four days a week, or three days during the week, and then list on the weekend, a day on the weekend.
• 22:59
  Jerry Bonanno: And at various points in there, of course, you're gonna, you're gonna start thinking, what am I doing, I'm getting a can't get enough sleep, I'm getting up, I'm getting home, and I have to, like, pack up for the next day, and I'm trying to eat and, you know, talk to my wife and spend some time with my kids. And then I got to throw my clothes together and get in bed and get back up. So that's what I mean, with being unreasonable. You have to, there's plenty of reasons not to do it. I mean, today, even you know, you wake up and you don't want to get out of bed, you know, you're tired or, and, you know, and so you have to be reasonable with yourself and get yourself to do it. Don't give yourself you know, and out. Yeah, there's, there's, I think you just have to always, you have to always understand there's always three good reasons not to do what you should do. What you know, you should be doing. But you have to do it anyway. Yeah,
• 23:47
  Philip Pape: you have to do it anyway. I mean, it sounds like it's so connected to your purpose and who you are. And it would be awesome. If everybody listening could could find that.
• 23:55
  Philip Pape: And everybody can I'm not saying they can't. And it's even if somebody's listening, like but I like group classes, or I want to do whatever you just said like you're gonna give yourself reasons not to do and I've heard that too, with new clients who I'm trying to get them like training with barbells or whatnot. And like, but I really love the group group class and the question I have to ask yourself is what do you really want out of all this? And is that gonna get you there? You can definitely do things in your life that you enjoy that maybe don't serve that purpose. But you have to make the space and prioritize is what you're talking about is prioritizing, but like not even giving yourself the reasons they may exist but so what you do it I mean, that's cool, man.
• 24:29
  Jerry Bonanno: And that's that's just to add to that that's why the early morning thing because you know, I'm just like yeah, you get stuff pops up that you didn't know was gonna be there and no matter how carefully you plan you're gonna get your time gets sucked up by other things.
• 24:42
  Jerry Bonanno: So it does first thing like nobody else is even awake. So nobody can get in the way you know, so but you have that's it's it's not the most reasonable thing all the time but you have to go there sometimes to get it done. So I
• 24:58
  Philip Pape: hear you man, I used to I used to say I'm not a morning In person, and I know a lot of people listening probably nod your head like, Yeah, I'm not a morning person, I can't do that. But again, that's the, I want you to keep this be unreasonable in your head, just say, Well, what if I did do it?
• 25:09
  Philip Pape: What if I did it for like three weeks or four weeks, you know, three or four days a week, I just did it and experiment with it and see how it makes you feel, I guarantee you're gonna get the day started. You're gonna be pumped, you're gonna have the energy, you're gonna like, I accomplished something huge already. And the most important thing for me right now for my physicality, and so the rest of the day is like, you know, easy.
• 25:28
  Jerry Bonanno: Yep, yep. And it's, and it's gonna just be frank, it sucks. I mean, it's gonna suck your heart when I first transitioned to doing that, because I was lifting after work before my first daughter was born. It was horrible. I mean, I was like, This is the worst. Like, I can't, I can't do what I was doing after work. I can't, you know, I'm really not awake yet.
• 25:46
  Jerry Bonanno: All these excuses, right? And they're not. They're real. I mean, but it's like, okay, you're gonna acclimate to it.
• 25:54
  Jerry Bonanno: And now I can't train it at night. I'm weaker. At night, you know? So, if you'll get used to it, you know, and it's if it's that or nothing, then do it in the morning. Exactly.
• 26:06
  Philip Pape: Do it. How did did you at some point, make a decision elsewhere to make a trade off so that it wasn't so hard? Or like you didn't have that long commute? Or did it just naturally your job changed?
• 26:17
  Jerry Bonanno: That happened through COVID? Yeah, okay. You know, we started all teleworking and it kind of stuck. So, you know, for me, that's, that really changed my life, frankly, quite a bit, it helped me to really be able to get a little more rest, and I think help with my consistency. But I stuck to the mornings. And I kind of built out the home gym as my, my kids came into the picture. So I did go to a very, I had the luxury of training at a really good powerlifting gym that was just outside of DC where I work.
• 26:46
  Jerry Bonanno: And you know, some great people there, Mac Gary and Suzy Gary, who were from Maryland, awesome in the powerlifting world, and they taught me how to live. So I had to look, I got lucky, I had them there. But even when I was doing that, I would stop there on the way out of DC and then come home and I wouldn't get home until 830 or nine o'clock at night. And so once once my kids came into the picture, I figured I think my wife had been really good about it. But at that point, it's like, Okay, I gotta be around after after work. So switch to the Lord.
• 27:18
  Philip Pape: Yeah, so you just Okay, so you switched, you are deliberate things that you did, right? Like you switched in the morning, you built your home gym, you did things to reduce friction, even when there was reasons to have a lot of friction, you kind of moved it around. And that's the important message. It's like, you can't always eliminate everything that's still right there. Yeah.
• 27:33
  Philip Pape: I
• 27:35
  Jerry Bonanno: mean, it's kind of like, you know, I mean, this thing, like, be unreasonable, it's good. It's a good Maxim like, but don't grind yourself into a note for no reason. I mean, be smart to like, if there's things you can do to reduce the friction, do it. And the other thing is that I just want to mention with that sounds inconsistent, but like, you have to give yourself some grace one.
• 27:53
  Jerry Bonanno: So, you know, if you're on a four day program, and you only hit three days, that week, or a five day and you only hit whatever, you know, don't quit, Don't drive yourself into the ground with that just keep going and move past it's gonna happen, you happen, it's
• 28:07
  Philip Pape: gonna happen. So a couple of times already, you've mentioned, you know, working hard and smart at the same time.
• 28:12
  Philip Pape: So shout out to our friend, Tony Perry, who's in the Andy Baker's barbell club with us. And he was on the show before. And he and I chat all the time, very philosophical guy. And he gives me some business advice as well.
• 28:21
  Philip Pape: And I was talking about this podcast and updating the description, which I did. So for those watching, read the new description, it says something about working smarter and more efficiently. But my original draft was working smarter, not harder. And you know, that's kind of a cliche, trite thing that people say, and he's like, What are you talking about? Man?
• 28:39
  Philip Pape: He's like, No, you still want to work hard. You just do it. You combine it with smart. And that's how you get everything.
• 28:43
  Philip Pape: That's how you work efficiently.
• 28:46
  Philip Pape: And so you're hitting on those themes of like, there's effort, and it's hard. And anybody listen to the show that wants it to be easy, or fast or quick in any way, not going to happen.
• 28:55
  Philip Pape: Not going to happen. You're going to have to go after it.
• 28:58
  Philip Pape: But you could do it in a smart way. And what I won't don't want you doing is working hard and not getting the result because that's that's the discouraging thing. When you're not an intelligent and you're working hard. And you're like, Well, I'm working hard, but it's not working. Okay, we're trying to teach you that here on this show. And Jared, Jerry has been there. Yeah. What about the food side along this whole? Like, again, now we're going back in time, you say physicality is was super important. Was nutrition or food, like on par with your training? In terms of the focus?
• 29:26
  Jerry Bonanno: No, okay. Okay, that's the thing that I've kind of come full circle. I'm now being where I am. It wasn't and and although I probably looking back, I mean, I was lifting, I understood that I needed to eat relatively well. I needed to get enough protein, this that and the other thing, and I thought I was kind of doing that, you know before but I'll say a couple of things and kind of reflecting what I started working with you.
• 29:52
  Jerry Bonanno: So what I was doing is just kind of eating free grazing but trying to pick up enough protein so I thought be useful. But looking back back, I really wasn't keeping track anything.
• 30:01
  Jerry Bonanno: So I had no idea really how much of anything I was eating, right.
• 30:05
  Jerry Bonanno: And so, again, it's pretty simple stuff. But when I started working with you, I mean, I would say looking back a few things, if you're not tracking what you're eating, you have no idea how many calories you're eating, I don't care. If you think you do or not, you're eating more calories than you think you are. That's super hard to judge, even if you're kind of paying attention. And you have no idea how little protein you're eating, if you're not tracking, because it's not easy to get a gram per pound of body weight of protein, right? Or point eight, or whatever you're trying to do. And like me, personally, when we started working together, I thought I was eating a lot of protein, because, you know, I'm lifting and I'm, I'm doing all the things, but I was probably lucky if I was eating 140 grams of protein a day, and I was 250 pounds. So that's not even close, like now, you know, I'm getting a gram per pound pretty much every day, just because of the way I eat, not even really going out of my way, the way today. So those were really the two things. So I was kind of like aware of nutrition and what I should be doing. But when I compare it to what I was doing with lifting and training, like I would never go lift and not write down when I did like, yeah,
• 31:11
  Philip Pape: yeah. Or it's like your budget, your training all these other things you try?
• 31:14
  Philip Pape: Yeah. And why don't food? Yeah.
• 31:17
  Philip Pape: But for
• 31:17
  Jerry Bonanno: some reason with nutrition, I was like, Yeah, I'm kind of doing it. Yeah. My
• 31:22
  Unknown: name is Tony, I'm a strength lifter in my 40s. Thank you to Phil and his Whitson weights community for helping me learn more about nutrition, and how to implement better ideas into my strength training, Phil has a very, very good understanding of macros, and chemical compounds and hormones and all that. And he's continuously learning. And that's what I like about Phil, he's got a great sense of humor, he's very relaxed, very easy to talk to. One of the greatest things about Phil, in my view is that he practices what he preaches, he also works out with barbells, he trains heavy, not as heavy as me, but he trains heavy. So if you talk with him about getting in better shape, eating better, he's probably going to give you some good advice. And I would strongly recommend you talk with him, and they'll help you out.
• 32:05
  Philip Pape: That's a good segue into the things that you did change in your approach. And kind of strategically, tactically, I mean, that was a huge one. That's step one, you know, when I work with a client, in our physique University, it's like the onboarding, the second module is tracking. And if you're like, oh, I don't want to track I mean, track. So have you had an experience of tracking food ever in the past? Where at all? And then if you did, was it ever unpleasant? Or was this the first time you really started tracking, I
• 32:31
  Jerry Bonanno: had tried to track a couple of times in the past. And then going way back, I think, in my mid 30s, I had some success with it. But I was just tracking what I was eating, I didn't really have a plan, or even with macros, I wasn't really paying attention on school just focused on calories, you know, and so I had done it in the past, but I think having like, Okay, I'm going to get into a calorie deficit, I'm going to keep my protein high enough to maintain or keep trying to maintain what the muscle I have during this cut.
• 33:04
  Jerry Bonanno: And I'm going to do it for a period of time. You know, it's not like, I'm just in the deficit forever, like, we're going to run this deficit for the way we set it up, I think, and this was more like, you know, just how I think it's like, I'm going to run this deficit for a specific period of time. And there's a rate that I should be losing at, but I'm just gonna focus on like, the leading indicators, like doing the things, and where I end up is where I end up at the end of three months. And it's gonna be dictated by how, you know, closely I can stick to the plan, and probably a million other things that happened in your body when you're trying to do this, but it was, I think those were the things that really changed with was having a plan, having an end date, and like saying, Okay, let's do this, and let's get, let's stay on track.
• 33:50
  Jerry Bonanno: And I think the tools that you have, and you're really good at data analysis, you know, and so, you know, I'm, I would show up for a coaching call, say, I think this is happening, and, you know, you say, Well, you have the data like I have it right here, let's look and it's like, yeah, that's happening or not quiet, or here's why it's happening or whatever. So I think all of that is really what changed. And interestingly, like that stuff, you know, I think we did I think two, you know, we did two, three month cuts together. And, you know, that's all stuff I've, I've gotten on a scale pretty much every day, we can talk about that too. I know that's another bugaboo for some people, but I'm a big believer in weighing yourself every day.
• 34:29
  Jerry Bonanno: And then, you know, tracking food and tracking macros. Now, if that's all you want to do, I think you can probably get most of the way where you want to be just doing that stuff. But
• 34:38
  Philip Pape: yeah, that's a great message, right, like, so.
• 34:41
  Philip Pape: We talked about on the show all the time. And I'm like, if you just listen to all the episodes and apply it, you'll be successful. Knowing that however, there are specifics to to you that you may not quite understand even when you have that which is probably, which is why I want to ask the next question, but they don't want to dig back into what some of the details is. Why did you come back to me a second time If it happens, it happens more than people would think, where it's like, you know, I want you to fire me when we're done. But then there's always things you can learn and help that you can get to make the process easier.
• 35:08
  Philip Pape: So I'm just curious about that.
• 35:11
  Philip Pape: I think
• 35:11
  Jerry Bonanno: for me, it's it was, we had a lot of success, the first run. And there might I mean, this is not the only reason I think the service was really good. All of that stuff.
• 35:21
  Jerry Bonanno: I mean, it worked. We clicked, you know, it was fun working with you, you know, there was nothing forced, it was like, how do you want this to go? How much help do you need? Where do you need to help? You know, so it was very much customized to me, which was great. But also, there was a little tinge of fear or anxiety that like, I don't want to just have done that, and then try this on my own. And for No, I wanted to make sure like I had it. And, and it's really interesting, because virtually the same thing happened in the second cut, this happened. And first, we got a little over 15 pounds of scale weight off, or we turned off our retract it.
• 35:55
  Jerry Bonanno: And you know, overall, over both cuts, I mean, my my waist Trump five inches. So I was kid you and you kind of owe me a new wardrobe. That's good. But But know that that's why I really wanted to do a second run with you and just make sure I had everything down and could replicate those results. Yes,
• 36:18
  Philip Pape: it's interesting, because I find that the most successful people that do this are the ones who are also willing, they're curious, first of all, like you asked a lot of great questions as we work together and took advantage of whatever we could and even got, you know, challenge me on a number of occasions to really do my research and know my stuff.
• 36:36
  Philip Pape: But the most successful people will have that curiosity and will seek help. And we'll look for every tool available to like accelerate that process as much as possible. So that yeah, eventually, you can just do it on your own with complete confidence. Whereas the people that aren't as successful, it's like, I could do it on my own, they kind of refuse to reach out for help. And I'm not saying you have to pay for a coach or I get it. Not everyone can afford that. But like, just rely on other people for like, I found that time and again, with every aspect of life, even if you are training by yourself in your dank basement gym, you learn from a lot of greats that came before you. And I'm sure you learn from a lot of people who are your peers? So Oh, yeah.
• 37:12
  Philip Pape: Tell us about like, as we work together, you are asking great questions and trying to learn, I feel like you're trying to get in your own education in nutrition above and beyond just tell me what steps to take.
• 37:25
  Philip Pape: Right. Right. Yeah,
• 37:27
  Jerry Bonanno: yes, yeah. So I mean, for me, it's just the way I'm wired. Like, I need to understand at least at a more than an inch deep level, why I'm doing what I'm doing. Because, for me, it helps with a lot of the stuff we talked about earlier, which is like, there's going to be resistance, there's going to be internal resistance from yourself, there's going to be things that push in on you from the outside, your results may vary a little bit. So if if you don't understand what's happening, you know, that tends to spite your anxiety. And for me, your fear your and you get wrapped around the axle, you know, and it's kind of one of those things where I thought, this is another reason for the second run, it's like, you know, let's get a few another inch deep on this and see and make sure you understand what's going on. And I have more interest than I have bandwidth. So I think this stuff is really interesting. But I needed to basically nail down what are the I always thought about this, and my kids are probably sick of hearing, it's like, what are the big rocks that I need to get into the container? And if I have time, and like I said bandwidth or interest, I'll worry about the little rocks in the sand getting in there. But I need to know, what are the big ones that I need to move the needle? And I wanted to make sure I had my arms around that stuff. And, you know, that's kind of my motivation for, for doing it. I mean, it's it's, you know, education has been huge in my life changed the course of my life, really, to be honest. And but you know, it's one of those things that's kind of addictive, because the more you learn, the more you find out, you don't know. And so it's kind of a cycle. Yes, you can get addicted to it. And some people don't like that, because it's it's a little bit. You know, sometimes it's painful learning stuff, because you figure out what you don't know or what you had wrong. So you have to be able to, like deal with that. But yeah, anyway, that's why I kind of came back. And that's why I tried to dig a little bit deeper on certain things, you know, to make sure I understood, yeah,
• 39:19
  Philip Pape: for sure. And, and it's like a filter, right? Like you said, What did you just say you said I have I have a lot of interests, but not all the bandwidth. It's like, it's like, if somebody just wanted to learn everything in the world, you'll never be able to read all the books that exist ever, like there's more being produced than every day than you could possibly ever keep up with. So how do you get to that, especially if it's not your area of expertise, and I mean, that's why I hear coaches all over the place business and podcasting and training, and it's a guy I understand there's an investment of money, but there's money time trade off, and usually you get way more results from it as a result. So tell us about the you talked about leading indicators.
• 39:55
  Philip Pape: I like that so it makes me think of KPIs of profit. This oriented like in the now things you can measure ahead of time, so that on the back end, you get the result. It's like in a company, right? You don't measure toward profit, like you don't act toward profit, you act toward all the little actions day to day customer satisfaction and delivery and things like that, that get you the profit. And the profit is just you know, gonna happen. Same thing with weight loss, fat loss, whatever, you don't lose 20 pounds, you track your macros you eat your carbs, you try. Right, so tell us some of the most important indicators other than tracking food that you've already mentioned, that you found in the process with
• 40:34
  Jerry Bonanno: nutrition. I mean, well, first, I learned this, like super young. So I was lucky. And I learned it through sports, one of the sports teams I was involved in was super successful, I was kind of mediocre, but the program was exceptional. And the thing that stuck with me about that program was they never talked about winning, all we did was win, but they never talked about winning, they talked about performance.
• 40:57
  Jerry Bonanno: And I remember, you know, walking off the mat, winning, getting chewed out, walking off the mat, after having my butt kick butt fighting, and having people hugging me and, you know, telling me what a great job I did. So it was like, oh, you know, this is this is how you get good. You know, you just focus on the process and what you're supposed to be doing and how you're performing. And so just like fast forwarding into nutrition, it's like, well, you know, this is why like, working with you, and getting the plan together was so important. It's like, okay, here's the rate of loss, here's where you should end up by the mass at the end of the three months. But here are the things you need to do this week to get there. And it's like, okay, total calories, like protein intake. Really, for me, I mean, I tried to focus on the few big things, it was, you know, controlling my total caloric intake and making sure I got enough protein, at the highest level that was really were my kind of leading indicators every day, and every week. And, you know, I would get on the scale every day. And And those were now my daily skill weight was not, you know, you talk about this a lot, it's like, that's gonna fluctuate, but when you get on a scale every day, and you put it into whatever app you're using, and if the app is good, you know, it's gonna give you a weight trend. So you're gonna be able to see where you're going, you know, but getting on recording it and then hitting your targets every every day, every week, or in for food intake. And whether you need to drink more water, we did a thing where we my steps.
• 42:22
  Jerry Bonanno: Remember, in the beginning, I sit here all day, you know, with smoke coming out of my ears thinking really hard, but I don't move a ton other than lifting weights, right? That's why that was a big change. When we got that up to 8000 steps.
• 42:33
  Jerry Bonanno: And then 10,000 steps a day, my heart rate dropped from like high 70s to like high 60s, like almost overnight, you know, so it's like, I want to reduce my heart rate. What am I going to do like my focus on that? Like, no, you have to get up and walk around. There wasn't even like training. It was like, just go walk, you know, get
• 42:52
  Philip Pape: Yeah, and actually you you don't even focus on steps. So So you're saying is one of the results is the heart rate, an intermediate result is higher step count. But even that is not the KPI. The KPI is the activity that gets you the stripes.
• 43:04
  Jerry Bonanno: It's like, I tried to, like shrink it down to like, what do I need to do today? Because I find, like, yeah, about this week, or so to your point, it's like, you need to get up every so many get up every so many minutes and walk or go out for a walk or, you know, whatever. And those are like the most immediate things that you need to do, I think, because I think what happens if you don't do that is like, okay, so we do that math at the beginning of the cycle, and I should lose 17 pounds at the end of this three months, right? But I only lose 14. So then it's like, oh, well, I failed, I missed by three pounds. It's like you're 14 pounds lighter than you were when you started You dummy. And you're and you're less fat, and you're healthier.
• 43:41
  Jerry Bonanno: And that's a win a
• 43:44
  Philip Pape: huge one. Yeah, you weren't fixated on the number, you're you're fixated on the process, and you gotta get your mind,
• 43:48
  Jerry Bonanno: right. So it's like, that's why I think that's so I mean, everybody wants to win, whatever the win is, but you're not going to get there if you don't do the things that you need to do every day to get there. And I think you're way better off focusing on that stuff. And see where the where you end up and obsessively focusing on that outcome. Yeah,
• 44:06
  Philip Pape: and correct me if I'm wrong, but half the time when you ask the question, like, what do I do for x? The answer is either, what do you think we should do? Like, what? What will work for you? Or why don't we look at the data and figure out what it's telling us? Because, again, I think a good coach isn't just gonna say do this. I mean, a coach can do that, right? In certain cases, it's like, no, just do this. But in a lot of cases, it's like, I gotta work with you. You know you better than me, right? I'm not a I'm not your nutritionist, you know, sitting there every day planning out all your meals.
• 44:37
  Philip Pape: It's like, you got to live your life, man. So you tell me these five, five options for hitting this KPI and let's make it happen.
• 44:44
  Jerry Bonanno: That's exactly right. I'm glad you brought that up. Because it's like, that's not what this service is that you provide. It's not like here's your breakfast. Here's your snack. Here's your lunch.
• 44:52
  Jerry Bonanno: You know, it's what kind of foods do you like to eat? You kind of get a feel for the for that part. Listen and say, Okay, this one's good. It's rich in protein, it's very protein dense for the calories, right? This one not so much. Maybe you pick that up when we come out of the cut, you know, and then, you know, you kind of let the person put their own kind of micro package together. But you're, you're kind of guiding guiding people through how to do that.
• 45:21
  Jerry Bonanno: And that's right. I mean, whether it's getting more steps, it's like, Well, do you have a dog? What do you have the what?
• 45:27
  Jerry Bonanno: How can you get more steps in you know, and it's like, oh, yeah, I have a dog, you know, I can walk the dog. Or I can do you have a treadmill? It's like, yeah, if you if you absolutely have to, at the end of the day, if you want to get another 1500 steps in or teeth out, you could walk on the treadmill, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, I have a, you know, have a TV next to the treadmill, I could listen to a podcast or do something while I'm walking on track habits. So it's like, you know, if you I think that's really that's, that's right. It's a difference between a coach and like a nutritionist or something like that. Yeah,
• 45:55
  Philip Pape: yeah, even the approach you take isn't always set in stone, because life changes or situations change.
• 45:59
  Philip Pape: Sometimes my answer is just try it out. Try it, try it out for two weeks. And if you don't like it, we'll try something else, like, you know, okay, so one of those things, despite all that, I will look at your data, right.
• 46:08
  Philip Pape: And there were times where I'd look at things and see insights or opportunities. And I'm like, Hey, Jerry, you know, this, this can you can do better here, right? Like, we can move up, you can eat more carbs, whatever it is, and, and kind of identify that, but then it's still up to us together to figure out how to do that. Yeah, let's just talk about carbs. Because you went from carnivore, which is all animal products, no carbs. I mean, it's like, even lower than keto in a way, right? It's like practically no carbs at all.
• 46:34
  Philip Pape: Because you're just not eating anything with carbs. What was that shift? Like, for the carbs?
• 46:37
  Philip Pape: Were you like, yeah, Heck, yeah, no problem, or there's some difficulty.
• 46:42
  Jerry Bonanno: I don't think I was like that, I think, you know, you were always my carbs are always a little bit low. You know, and at least in the beginning, I think I got better at it. And I think it was just not eat, you know, it was the carnivore experience was kind of a manifestation of this, but I think I had really internalized this, like, we're on carbs.
• 47:00
  Jerry Bonanno: Like, I think Mark Bell used to call it that, you know, it's kind of funny, but it's like, I think I had kind of internalized that and said, Well, I can't eat any carbs. Because like I said, doctors history of type two diabetes, and this and that the other thing, and it was like, you don't want to overheat carbs and processed foods. And really, sugar, I think is the is the big thing. But it's like, okay, you know, you can have some rice, or you can have fruit, like, I like fruit. And, you know, depending on what you're eating, you know, there could be a fair amount of carbs and those so it's like, okay, you can eat that stuff, like, you know, you're just, you're just going to eat it and try to make it conform to the goals that we've set out with your macros. So that was a big one. I think the carbs and we did find a kind of an interesting little anomaly with cuz my wife does kind of keto.
• 47:44
  Jerry Bonanno: And so I think we're trying to figure out like, I was hitting my calories, but the way that the, you know, the standards work, calories per gram, I guess, of carbs and fat I was, I found this like, keto bread, and it's full of fiber, and it's not that many calories. So it's like, how are you like doing this? Why are your carbs not higher? You know, what are you actually eating? And we figured out Oh, it's, it's this stuff.
• 48:10
  Jerry Bonanno: And there's like a ton of fiber in it. So it's like
• 48:13
  Philip Pape: 20 grams
• 48:14
  Jerry Bonanno: and slices. Like, it tastes kind of like bread.
• 48:18
  Jerry Bonanno: So,
• 48:19
  Philip Pape: I mean, it's great for a fat loss phase. It's one of those like, little hacks that's
• 48:22
  Jerry Bonanno: good for fat loss. Yeah, I think that was one of the things and also, I think, even the movement was a challenge, you know, because if your job doesn't require you to get up, and actually mine requires me to folk to sit down and focus, it's like, you know, you're, you're kind of battling that. So if you're not really conscious about it, you can really, you can take on your movement, and doesn't help when you're in a car if you if you're not moving. So those kinds of things, I think we had a really kind of check in adjusts every once in a while. And I need to be reminded, you know, once a while,
• 48:55
  Philip Pape: we all do, man. I mean, I'm in a fat loss phase right now. And I'm seeing it slow down. And I know exactly why it's because my steps are like 4000 lower than they normally are. You have the data.
• 49:02
  Philip Pape: Like it's clear, it's clear as right and you know, what's going on. Now, during this these two cuts? What about your biofeedback, like things like hunger, digestion, sleep stress, like, were any of those problematic at any point or challenging in any way? Um,
• 49:19
  Jerry Bonanno: you know, well, beginning there was, you know, I didn't I wasn't once I adjusted what I was eating, you know, and started eating less kind of processed stuff that's very calorie dense, but not very satiating, you know, and not and kind of nutrient deficient. To be honest, you know, that kind of went away there was hunger initially, but once we figured out okay, you know, you need to eat more chicken and a cut, you're not going to be eating steak. You're going to be eating more more chicken more fish.
• 49:47
  Jerry Bonanno: Regular was like, you know, my, my found source of protein that was really satisfying. And so the hunger was one thing, but that eased off pretty quick. And once I kind of slowed down and just ate and then stopped, you know, and kind of realize your full, like, you're not hopefully anymore, like you can move on to something else. Or, and also the other thing, I think that I realized that I had to adjust to was I wasn't really drinking enough. That's another thing I've I've struggled with fluid, you know, water. And so sometimes you're thirsty, but for some reason you think you're hungry and you're eating so the hunger was one thing digestion.
• 50:30
  Jerry Bonanno: The other thing that I didn't mention, before we started working together, I started to really experience for really the first time, some acute kind of digestive stuff like reflux, I got really bad heartburn for the first time in my life, like, before we started working together, kind of like mild reflux, after you eat, having to clear your throat just just kind of stuff where it's like, what is going on here, you know, let that let off, kind of right away, when we started to cut and has stayed gone, as long as I'm not drinking too much alcohol or doing getting off track too much. I can feel it when I go when I when I do go to a social event and maybe have some few extra drinks, or I'll eat out or something. And it's like, yeah, I can definitely feel it in in the digestion area. But, and I also the other thing that we did with that was got on a probiotic. And and that helped a lot too. So yeah, it was the digestive symptoms. And the hunger were kind of two things that while the digestive symptoms led off, and the hunger did ramp up a little bit. But once I adjusted and started eating better foods, better quality food, it wasn't really a huge issue for me. Yeah,
• 51:37
  Philip Pape: yeah. And we and you know, hunger is different for everyone. And it depends on how fast you're going and how much weight you start with like being a bigger guy, I always noticed that bigger individuals will have maybe a little less hungry just because they have like the fat stores to draw from. It's kind of a weird phenomenon. But this whole idea of, there's always this debate about Intuitive Eating versus tracking. And we talk about doing both together. And the fact that you have all the data and you're tracking, it all develops that intuition. And what you're saying is now you know that if you go have some drinks, or do this, you feel it at a lot of people aren't even in tune with that they just kind of are living in a certain way.
• 52:10
  Philip Pape: They always feel that way, potentially, and they don't notice the contrast. Right? And you mentioned like hydration. I know. And this may not be for everyone. When I'm in fat loss, if I start to feel like my stomach is empty, like, almost like not just hunger, but it's like there's a void in there. I know, it's probably because I haven't drunk enough. It's not that I haven't eaten, it's going to happen. And I go get a glass of water and like an hour later, it starts to subside. Yep. So it's just kind of being in tune with those things is super important. Yeah, probiotics.
• 52:39
  Philip Pape: That's that's a whole thing that gut health, it's fun to get into. All right, just a couple more things before we we sign up. Were there any other I guess, aha moments that we didn't cover? From your whole journey? Whether it was mindset, sustainability, you know, specific tools or tactics? No, I
• 52:55
  Jerry Bonanno: mean, I think what you just mentioned was one it was I had always heard this debate between intuitive eating and more tracking, I think they kind of are complimentary. Like, for me, intuitive eating didn't mean anything, what I didn't know how to eat was like, Well, I'm just gonna eat whatever, it doesn't eat me first. And try not to eat too much of it, you know, but it's like, but now I can do that. Because, again, it's getting on the scale every day. You know, that's, that's another big one and learning to eat the right way. It's like, now I know what right is for me.
• 53:24
  Jerry Bonanno: And what is going to keep me out of body weight that I think is better or healthier for me. And so I know what 40 grams of oatmeal looks like now, because I stare at it every morning on the scale. I know what it looks like, I know what eight ounces state looks like, I know what six ounces of chicken looks like. It's probably off but not I'm not eating 18 ounces of chicken. I'm eating maybe eight if I think it's six. So I think that that was one of the big aha was was oh, all this tracking now allows me to be a little more intuitive posed to you, you need that data and you need to learn first what's right and what it looks like. And then you can identify it out there without all the support.
• 54:05
  Philip Pape: Yeah, it constantly comes up because the premise people have is when do I not track and it's like, Well, that may not even be a question like, you don't have to not track you could just track at different levels or pause tracking the whole spectrum nobody's telling you to do any of this stuff. But if you want it data that's how you get it is track and measure stuff. And I think it's kind of obvious, but I know I get people have emotional attachments to these things that have to be shifted up training. I know I wanted to ask you about your training. So like people want to know, did you all of a sudden go into a fat burning training program with high reps and lots of cardio?
• 54:39
  Jerry Bonanno: No, no, I didn't do any any cardio during either of the cuts. I mean, I I tried to you know for general health like you said
• 54:47
  Philip Pape: would say that again say that again. So people hear zero cardio zero cardio
• 54:51
  Jerry Bonanno: other than walking other than just trying to be healthy and moving a little bit. Yeah, I didn't need it and I don't think it would help and I just did my my like from a weight training perspective, I mean, I came from more when I learned how to lift again, in my early 30s, I started in a powerlifting kind of setting. So I learned the three big lifts, learn how to progress on them was great, you know, as a base, I think I've gradually moved more now, as I've gotten older into more of a bodybuilding type, training split. You know, there's, I love all these debates about, you know, whole body and body parts splits, and people are like, at each other's throats and stuff, it's like, it's all moving away.
• 55:29
  Jerry Bonanno: And, you know, there's, there's big things that you need to have in place in your program for it to work. And then there's a lot of variability in there a lot of elbow room. So I didn't train, I didn't change too much I did go to what I did, though, the biggest change was I went to a higher frequency, kind of lower volume per session type of training program. So I went from like a four day, maybe upper lower split, to a six day body part split, where the sessions are much lower volume per session, still training hard, pushing really hard on work sets, like close to, you know, technical failure, the reps really need to slow down on those work sets, if you're not going to do as many of them. But I found that that was beneficial for me it I felt better, I think I was, you know, technically probably generating, you know, more muscle protein synthesis maybe more often. And it worked for me, it was motivating. I could get in and out of the gym, I didn't dread, you know, a 90 minute session in the morning.
• 56:29
  Jerry Bonanno: And so, but that was it, I would say that was like a tweak of the dial rather than a, you know, a major shift. But that's it really, it's
• 56:38
  Philip Pape: important to understand. So people understand, right? There's the principles that never change.
• 56:42
  Philip Pape: But there are some things that can benefit you in fat loss. And I know, from your program, I'm going to say two off the top that from what you just said, one is, because you have for higher frequency and shorter sessions, there's some sort of balance across the week, knowing that you have a lower energy available to you that that could work for people and feeling more recovered. Even though you're working more, you know, you go into the gym more often. But if they're shorter, another another thing is more auto regulated type program. It's not a powerlifting. Like you're always hitting one RMS or prs. You're hitting that day's PR, perhaps but not necessarily in all time, PR every time right. So what's next for you, man? What are you doing now? What's next?
• 57:20
  Jerry Bonanno: IFBB pro card man now, I think you
• 57:24
  Philip Pape: got to talk to Eric Helms. Oh, that's natural, though.
• 57:26
  Jerry Bonanno: Yeah, I think I'm gonna, you know, I really am comfortable with the way I am now I'm hovering around, you know, 25 to 26 to 27. Depending on, you know, how much if I have any alcohol or eat out, yeah, wait can jump three pounds in a day easy. And you taught me you did not gain three pounds fat overnight. Don't freak out, give it a couple of days, it'll come back down. But I think I want to, I'm going to hang there until maybe later this summer.
• 57:51
  Jerry Bonanno: And I think I am going to do another cut in the fall, try to get down to my goals, the two teens, you know, and maybe live around 220 For the time being and maybe see if I can stay there. And for a while. And you know, just keep going. And I could see myself doing this mini cuts or cuts every so often for the next decade, keep my weight where I want it and just keep my blood work where I want it and and look the way I want. So that's really it, man. Nice man.
• 58:20
  Philip Pape: Yeah, I'd say it's kind of like maintenance. I mean, you've gotten to the point where small tweaks will get you there. And that's, you know, we started you just wanted to shift toward that equilibrium or you want to be now maybe if you want to maximize your leverages, you get down closer to a five to 10.
• 58:34
  Philip Pape: I don't know No, I'm joking.
• 58:34
  Philip Pape: Because the height times three formula in our in our forum,
• 58:38
  Jerry Bonanno: I have Cody kind of every once in a while will send me a message and say, why don't you just do a bench only competition? You know, like you're fishing, right? You know, like, well, if I if I get old enough, and I'm the only one left? Like I probably wouldn't say There you go. But no, I've toyed with that too of trying to get back into maybe compete once a while. But I'd like to do that at lower body. All
• 58:57
  Philip Pape: right. So you know, what question is coming? Is there a question that you wish I had asked? And what is your answer?
• 59:02
  Jerry Bonanno: Had it had it?
• 59:02
  Jerry Bonanno: And I think I answered it already. I think we covered a lot unwittingly in my urge to fill the time and say interesting things. But my question was going to be Why did you you know, for you to ask me why I hired you, you know, in the first place you specifically not a coach. And I think yeah,
• 59:20
  Philip Pape: and you kind of answered that. But I for my ego if you want to add to that, not just I think
• 59:25
  Jerry Bonanno: I can add to it a little bit. I think one of the things for people like me who would like a hobbyist man, this isn't my, my main thing or even my second or third thing is super important to me. But really, for me, it was looking for somebody that kind of understood that population. And you have a really unique skill set for working with general population. I think you could probably work with whoever you want it to. But people who are really juggling a lot of stuff who do this because they like it and they want to take it to the next level without having to consume their entire Are life presuming that, hey, I can, you know, I'm gonna, I'm going to be able to devote massive amounts of time to this. So your unique skill, I think Phillip and I mentioned this to you before is you can operate at any level of depth that a client would walk.
• 1:00:16
  Jerry Bonanno: And that's, that's really, I think, a unique skill because there's some people that are really deep, but they can't pull back. And like some weeks, it's like, Man, I just didn't know what to do. I'm really busy.
• 1:00:24
  Jerry Bonanno: Like, everybody's stressing me out, I got 10 million things, other weeks that lets off and it's like, well, why this why that why the other thing and you're not, like, frustrated by that or anything. So I think that's really I think what I wanted to make sure I covered is that if you're looking for help like that, I don't I don't know of anybody better to get it from so
• 1:00:45
  Philip Pape: appreciate that man. No, I appreciate that. And I mean, the general thought here is you know, finding a coach that can communicate with you and work with who you are and where you are in life and yeah, it's not like any coach can work with anybody. You got to find the right for you. And you know, you've got to gotta be able to be friends with them in a sense, right? Because as we're working together, if the personalities bash too hard, that's going to be tough as well. So yeah, I consider you a friend and you've been awesome to work with so far and I know we're going to be continued to be in touch we're in the lifting club and everything and I hope everybody listening here got just tons of even just practical advice, let alone motivation and philosophical inspiration from you with with everything you've done so well done and thanks so much for for coming on. I do want to give people a chance to reach out to her if you wanted to tell tell them how Yeah, I
• 1:01:32
  Jerry Bonanno: mean like folks that have Instagram account it's basically like a zoo cam in my basement just me going down there and training there's no talking or anything like that.
• 1:01:40
  Jerry Bonanno: So if you want to get in touch with me, I think the handles that the basement eight and credit the Tony Perry for calling me that and the list that didn't know lifting club and kind of stuff. So you can you know, reach out to me their request to follow me or whatever the thing you do on Instagram is okay, and you know, if you want to send me a message, I'm happy to respond or share whatever I can help you out. So I'm
• 1:02:03
  Philip Pape: not far ahead of you with Instagram. Being we're not we're not that far apart in age, but like I didn't grow up with it. So I'm just still struggling through but we'll throw the handle in there at the basement ape. It's been a lot of fun. Talk with you today. God, thanks for coming on doing this.
• 1:02:16
  Philip Pape: Have the courage to you know, share what you've been through and thank you. Awesome. Thank you