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Leadership & Management Skills for the Mid-Career Healthcare Epidemiologist · The SHEA Podcast

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to our Leadership and Management Podcast Series brought to you by the Society for Healthcare Epidemiology of America, Shay, promoting prevention of healthcare associated infections and antibiotic resistance and seeking to advance the field of healthcare epidemiology and antibiotic stewardship.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Christy Woods and I will serve as your moderator.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Shay is excited to launch this episode of the podcast series entitled Leadership and Management Skills for the Mid-Career Healthcare Epidemiologist.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast will focus on leadership and management skills needed to successfully lead and manage a team as a mid-career healthcare epidemiologist.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: We will address how one can develop a leadership style, use effective means of communication with a team, and the importance of being mentored even at this stage of one's career.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to introduce our two speakers for today.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: First, we have Dr.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Wali Javed, Professor of Medicine, Department of Medicine, Division of Infectious Diseases at the ICON School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, hospital epidemiologist, and medical director of infection prevention and control at the Mount Sinai Downtown Network.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Javed is a creative leader working with a diverse team focused on ongoing and continued improvement of quality metrics and decreasing patient harm.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Our second speaker is Kira Woods, a certified master coach and published author with extensive experience coaching C-suite executives, leaders, and entrepreneurs, helping them to overcome whatever is blocking them from being the best they can be.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: She works across all sectors, including healthcare, and with clients all over the world, 22 countries to date and counting.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you both for joining us today.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for inviting us.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Looking forward to the conversation.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: So let's jump into it.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many different types of leadership styles.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Some are much more effective than others.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: First, can you tell us is it important to develop a leadership style?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Chrissy.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think it's important to have some consistent style, some consistent ability to continue to affect your leadership and to continue to pursue the leadership you want to have to lead others.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the most important thing about this is to be true to yourself.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: So there are many different styles of leadership.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can be very authoritative, you can be transformational, you can be very delegative, you can be participative.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's many, many, many different styles.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: But uh you don't have to say, okay, I'm this guy or I'm that guy.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think what you think that your personality is, that's what your leadership style is going to be.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, although the most important thing about leadership is that you would be the person others will be looking at, and you need to kind of pursue the leadership style that you could be honest with you and you would like to be.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would I would agree with you, Dr.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Javid.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: First off, I would say that everyone has their own leadership style, which is a combination of their personality, their beliefs about leadership and their experiences of being led or how they've seen other people lead.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: And although there are competencies and behaviors that might be helpful to be a leader, there is no one way to be a leader.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: As Dr.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: Javid was saying, there's no single best leadership style because not all situations require the same thing from a leader.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: So what is important though in developing your leadership style is being aware, aware of both yourself and of the situation.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: So essentially what you're trying to achieve.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I would encourage whoever's listening to think about what your natural skills and ways of being are.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: So often people concentrate on what they need to develop rather than leveraging their innate skills.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And if you think of great leaders, they're probably all very different, but what they have in common is that you have a sense that they are being themselves.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: And we tend to follow people who are authentic to who they are.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say that step one is understanding your innate skills and leveraging them.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I would add a second step.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: What I constantly see is that the things that make us great in life are often the things that trip us up.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: So my natural way of being might be absolutely perfect in one situation, but absolutely not helpful in another.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: So for example, if I'm a very caring leader, which is obviously a wonderful attribute, I might be too caring and I might not hold people to account enough, or I might even end up doing things that I write they should be doing.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Or if I'm a very action-oriented leader, I might not leave enough time to explain the whys and hows of a plan and bringing people on the journey with me.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: So step two is understanding where you overdo your strength, and it's often where you leave the opposite of your strength.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: In those situations, I would encourage people to look at expanding your behavioral repertoire so you don't have a one-size-fits-all approach.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: And you can still be authentic to who you are and evolve your ways of dealing with different situations.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: Alternatively, you could also find people to work with and if possible to delegate to who have this who have the strengths that you don't.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: And there are plenty of examples of successful leaders out there who take this approach.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: So, in summary, I would encourage people to become more aware of what their strengths are and more aware of what the situation needs and make a conscious choice at how best to handle it.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: You both alluded to the fact that being a successful leader really means being true to yourself.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: So is there a good way to maybe identify what kind of leader you are and how to figure out what that sort of true self is, how to best mold that into a good leader?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there are a lot of different ways that you could do this.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Let me give you sort of four, four easy ways you could do it.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, first off, take some time on your own to think about your values and how those values translate into how you lead, or even think about situations where you feel you think you handle things pretty easily and think about what skills or attributes you have that have allowed you to do that.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: A second way, and and quite frankly, I think probably one of the best ways is to ask the people that you lead.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes people are afraid of looking for feedback if you know they're afraid of what they might hear back, but it's really helpful getting that kind of information and using that to help you get better.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: So over the next few weeks, I would encourage all the people listening to ask, you know, six to eight people out there who either you lead or work with closely.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Just two questions.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: So what do you do well as a leader and what could you do better?
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, if you ask around six or so people, you'll start to see common patterns in the answers that should be really helpful.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: A third way to identify the kind of leader you are is to do a psychometric personality assessment.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what's helpful with tools like MBTI, Insights, or Hogan, or the many tools that are out there, and some of them are brilliant by the internet, is that these tools give you a landscape of behaviors and help you understand how you sit within that landscape, which can obviously very help be very helpful.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: It also provides a certain vocabulary and a and a way of communicating and understanding different leadership styles.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: And finally, and maybe I would say this because I am a coach, uh, you could work with a mentor or coach uh who can give you the time, space, and expertise to help you understand what kind of leader you are.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the the distinction there being that a mentor tends to be somebody who has had the same professional experience as you, who as a coach doesn't necessarily have your professional experience but has expertise in helping people develop professionally.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very important that you highlight all these different ways that you can look for some sort of formal training.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it is very clear to me that there are many healthcare leaders who do not have any type of formal leadership training, particularly at mid-career.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd like to know within healthcare epidemiology, what resources do you know of that are available for development of leadership skills?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe do you know of any other non-healthcare epidemiology uh resources that are available for this?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Chrissy, for this really great question.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, ever since you asked this question and I was contemplating the answer, like how best to answer that, I've been trying to actually find some resources and kind of say, okay, yeah, these are the resources available, but they are not many available.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: So thinking about like there is no uh mid-hareer hospital epidemiologist tailored uh section of uh resources that are available.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: I think this podcast is one of the really important elements of those trainings that are or are those materials that we are thinking that should be available again, are not available for our mid-carrier hospital epidemiologists.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are the things that mid-carrier hospital epidemiologists should look at?
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Includes Shea Learning CE.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: There is a lot of good material in there, and over the last several years, there's been a lot more materials that have been added.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of good conversations in there in the podcast, but also there's webinars and other information that are available from different sources and different availabilities, so that's a good resource to have.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: If our hospital epidemiologists have not done the Shea uh infection prevention course or infection control course or hospital epidemiology course, that is actually pretty basic, but it's important to look at all the elements, and I encourage everybody to do that, especially if they're starting their hospital epidemiology careers.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: But after that, they are, as I said, there are isn't a course, there isn't a resource available that hospital epidemiologists can look at.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have myself been pursuing different courses in different careers.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: There are other things that people can utilize.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Several of the hospital epidemiologists have done masters in public health or pursue the degree master's in public health that does align with most of uh what our work is.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something people can pursue.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Several of the colleges and universities do have courses like Masters of Public Health available that are remote or that are more executive that you can do.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: There are other courses like that that are available, and I think I've already started a conversation with Shay about maybe developing more processes or more educational resources for a mid-carrier.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: So more to come, but I think things like that can be helpful for a mid-carrier epidemiologist.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: In regards to non-hospital ep resources, as I said, one would be masters of public health, masters of business administrations and another masters in statistics is something I've contemplated in doing.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe overkill, but it's something that we do a lot in our work.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: We look at numbers, we look at trends, and sometimes we have to show our leaders that uh the numbers are improving, or there's statistical difference in the numbers.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: So things that can help us in our analysis can be very helpful as well.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So those might be some examples to to think about or pursue.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: From what you highlight, it sounds like there are a lot of opportunities for maybe building a knowledge base and learning how to do that well, and that perhaps we are a little bit lacking in actual resources for leadership development.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure a lot of the master's courses do contain some of those.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think maybe some of Ms.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Wood's resources that she had cited might be useful to consider.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think as we think about leaders that we know that are effective leaders, one thing that often comes forward when you think about these people is their ability to communicate.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can all agree that communication is important in any setting in any situation.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And not everybody is a good communicator.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone has moments where they can certainly improve.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think the pandemic has actually highlighted moments where we thought we were communicating well and clearly not as effective as we thought we were.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, as I think about communication difficulties, can you describe some difficulties that arise, how they can be avoided if at all, maybe some pitfalls that we can think about as we try to be better communicators, how to navigate those?
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: There are so many communication difficulties we could cover, but just in the interest of time, I might pick up three of the most common ones that I see, which are people not really listening, people making assumptions, and people avoiding having difficult conversations.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know about completely avoiding these communication difficulties, but we can certainly significantly reduce them.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: When it comes to not really listening, like anything else we concentrate on, if we really concentrate on listening, we we probably will feel quite tired.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: So really focusing on what is somebody saying, but also what is the tone that the person is saying whatever they're saying in listening to the message between the lines, you know, what are they not saying?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_02: And also, I would even say listening with your eyes as well as your ears, you know, looking at what their body language is saying.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now, obviously, you know, working virtually that becomes a little bit more difficult, but tone is still a huge part of it, and being able to look at body language as as well.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: So really just taking the time to listen and think to yourself, like, how well am I actually listening here?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: The the second thing I I mentioned, which is making people making assumptions.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, obviously that's a form of not listening, but I feel it gets people in so much trouble it's worthwhile highlighting on its own.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And the sort of the best and easiest solution here is very simple.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's just asking, it's checking things out with people, it's saying, I'm understanding this is from what you were saying.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is that right?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a big assumption most of us make is that we assume everyone thinks and feels the same as us, and we judge other people on what they say based on what it would mean if we said a very common example of this is the difference between introverts and extroverts.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: So extroverts generally figure out what they're saying as they speak, whereas introverts generally figure out what they think before they speak.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you can see how that can create all sorts of confusion.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I would encourage extroverts to send information or questions in in advance to introverts to give them time to reflect on what they think beforehand and not just put them on the spot and expect them to have a view.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And similarly, I would encourage introverts to not assume that the extrovert hasn't got a clue what they're thinking and they're chopping and changing their view, but they're going through a process of figuring out what they're thinking through what they're saying, and that this process doesn't make them any less credible.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: And the final difficulty I mentioned is avoiding difficult conversations.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we often do it because we're worried about how people will react or that they will somehow get angry or upset.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think one thing that can really help with this is sharing your intention.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you might even say, I'm gonna be a bit clumsy in how I say this, but I want you to know that my intention is to help you, you know, help you to develop professionally, or my intention is to ensure the department is doing what it is being asked of it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's not about making you feel bad.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: So none of this stuff is rocket science, it's all the basic stuff that we know already.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think time is probably the biggest enemy.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, everyone is so busy that it but it does make a tremendous difference.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it is worthwhile spending those few extra minutes listening, testing assumptions, having the conversation that you'd rather not have, as often it will save you a lot of time later on.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Totally agree with Ms.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Forts here.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh communication uh for has a healthcare epidemiologist, hospital epidemiologists, communication is critical.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And as several times communication is extremely difficult as well.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So a very simple example of that would be if somebody is not washing hands, going up to them and telling them you're not washing your hands is a difficult communication to have.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very, very difficult communication to have.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: But that example, uh, that's one of the several examples we face every day as infection prevention and infection control, hospital epidemiologists, or people were engaged in having conversations with other individuals, either senior or junior to us, who we need to influence, who we need to change their behavior.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's how we need to look at it.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: So when I started as an infection prevention leader, as a hospital epidemiologist, at that time I didn't receive a clear training on how to have these communications, and some of these SIMC's conversational communications did not go as well as they could have.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And the reason being is that others uh that we communicate to do get either defensive, angry, or both, and it does create that degree of conflict that none of us uh would like to engage in.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there's several things, and uh like Miss Woods really explained it so so well.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's several things that we can do, and that really goes back to our first point about our leadership style.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Our communication needs to be extremely clear, it needs to be concise, and it needs to be collective.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to be very comprehensive, very clear, and fairly concise to communicate whatever we are trying to say to uh to, for example, a surgeon who is not properly doing something, or a person or a group that we're seeing higher rates of infections from, we need to have that communication clearly, concisely, and collectively.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: We need to be very engaging but also extremely honest.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: The things we don't know, I have found that the best answer to telling anyone that I don't know really is I don't know.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: And also, if if you can find out, you can definitely ask them, hey, I will pursue this, but I don't know the answer to that.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: For example, if I wash this wound with antibiotics, would that cause any harm?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know the answer, it's best to answer it in that way.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: But then you can also say that hey, it's not a standard practice, not best idea to do, but let's pursue it, let's research it.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of things that go along with that.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when we are communicating, we might be thinking about things that uh are mostly our personal beliefs, and we should not impose our personal beliefs on others.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's scientific methods, we live in a very scientific-oriented community, and our core values should be based on science and core of what we say is not my personal belief, but what scientifically is right, what is logically right, and how we get to that point.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And lastly, we do need to recognize challenges.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: For example, the person that I I just observed and wash their hands.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: What are their challenges?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the hand sanitizer or the sink is not in the right place.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So blaming somebody about that error they did is not the answer, not the leader that you would want to be.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: You want to actually be the person who resolves the issues.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Once you start helping people help themselves, that's where where your leadership skills really outshine others.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really what you need to focus on is yes, if there is any issue, how do you recognize the challenge and how do you help become the resource to uh remove that challenge and improve the outcomes here?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: You both touched on the fact that there are going to be moments of conflict, whether it's communicating with an individual or with a team.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering if you could share some tools for successfully resolving a conflict when it arises.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think with our line of work, a lot of conflict can occur because people sometimes are set with their ways and the way they did things forever and ever might be the thing that they think is right or is the best way of doing it.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: We have seen that in a lot of outside clinics or outside units that their practices might not be consistent with the practices that are more recognized or more safer, and I think that does create conflict.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when we communicate with somebody that you are, for example, if you're not washing your hands correctly, that could create conflict.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Once we say to a team that group or a unit that, hey, there is an outbreak of X disease and you might be doing this to cause that, that will create conflict.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to be very mindful of the conflict that can arise from our conversation and we need to address it head on.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: For example, if we think that somebody is performing some process incorrectly, we need to provide them with proper education, uh proper resources, references, exact methods of performing a procedure, and let them come to the conclusion themselves that the process that they are adopting is probably not the best, and there are better ways of doing it.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And helping them to come to that point.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think that helps avoid a lot of conflict.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Once it occurs, I think you always have to take 10 steps back, always have to review, see where other person is coming from, help your team stay, and sometimes you will get involved in situations when one person is your team member and other is in another team.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: In those situations, obviously, you need to support your team, but also recognize that everybody has opinions.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So take a few steps back, bring everybody back, say that all of us are there for only one reason is to provide the highest level of care.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Once people recognize that the goal is the same, pathways might be different.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: People do recognize and help uh get to the best problems.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes, depending on the conflict itself, sometimes you do need to go to higher resources, including your your leadership team, andor sometimes you have to talk with HR if the person, the other's conflict is arisen because of uh specifically personality and not an error.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of things that you can think of, but always take a step back, review the situation, and try to resolve the conflict.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: First off, I would say that conflict isn't necessarily bad.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's normal and it can be healthy.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, teams often need a bit of constructive conflict, having enough different opinions, if you like, in order to perform really well.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: However, I think what we're talking about here is for conflict is destructive.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And in those instances, I would echo a lot of what Dr.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Javid has said, and also the points I've made already about communication difficulties are helpful here, such as making sure you listen, not making assumptions and not avoiding the difficult conversation.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: In addition, I would say staying calm and getting clarity on the issue, focusing on the problem, not the person, and following up until the conflict is resolved are all also important.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: So in Dr.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: Javi's example of not washing hands properly, like focusing on the problem of that rather than on the person and making it personal.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: However, obviously if the conflict is serious, you also need to know when to get HR involved.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, most organizations and hospitals would would have guidelines on escalation policies.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: The last thing I would say is we're talking about different styles of leadership, but understanding different styles of conflict and identifying your own and other people's styles and other people's styles.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And people listening might like to look up Thomas Kilman's conflict mode instrument.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's Killman K I L M A N N.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And there you'll find lots of great information on the five different conflict styles that he identifies, which I think people would find very informative.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you both for reviewing everything from communication and leadership style and also thinking about things that help us to develop as leaders.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Ms.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Woods, at one point you did mention that having a coach could potentially be a good thing, but also that a mentor is important.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering how you feel that a mentor relationship fits into all of this.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: We know that mentors can be very important for developing leadership skills and having a trusted individual to serve as a sounding board.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Could you both talk a little bit about the role that having a mentor plays in developing leadership skills, how important you think it is, and how you go about finding that person and what might make a good mentor?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say it's absolutely invaluable having a mentor.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And really I think they give you two things.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: One, the obvious one is they give you expertise and they share their experience of handling certain situations that can be incredibly helpful.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: But secondly, they create time for you.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of the challenges are everybody's so busy, nobody's got the time to stand back and reflect on what's going on.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, having that time in the diary with somebody else will force you to prioritize that time that you can actually stand back and think about what you need that forces you to prioritize and take that time out of yourself.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: It's so hard to take unless you have that commitment to somebody else.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the kind of three key things in a good mentor is their skills and expertise.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you're looking if you're looking for a mentor to help you with your leadership skills, that's what you're looking for, their leadership experience and not necessarily their technical ability, but also their willingness to help.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, you want somebody who's actually going to make time for you in their diary that they aren't going to keep canceling, and hopefully that they'll be generous and sharing their own failings and their own journey.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And finally that the chemistry is right.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: So you want somebody that you feel comfortable being vulnerable with, being honest about what you're struggling with.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so what makes a good mentor is not just a given, it's it's what makes a good mentor for you, and it's it's finding the right fit.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'd look around at who you admire or even asking people you trust for recommendations.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then I wouldn't ask the person straight off the bat to be your mentor, but I'd have a coffee with them first, just asking their opinions on certain situations, and then based on that, you can make a call as to whether you think that's the right person for you to be their mentor and go and ask them.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I 100% agree with Ms.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Woods on that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's critical to seek and pursue a mentor that uh that can help you throughout your career.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I have myself like have had many people that I consider as my mentors.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: I call them up whenever I have issues.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: As uh Ms.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Woods mentioned, setting up some some time to sit down and talk with your mentor is uh is a great idea, but uh uh but also having that ability to have an external person help you lead others is really really important.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: Somebody who can be unbiased in that situation is probably a perfect person to help you navigate your career, have you have you learn more new things and other recognize other opportunities as well.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: So 100% agree, having a mentor is extremely, extremely helpful.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: I actually also say you don't have to have only one mentor, you can have several.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: They recognize and help you in different aspects.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some can be helping you in your leadership, but others could help you in your communications.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you recognize or find a mentor?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Is just look at people who you get inspired by.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Just ask them if they can mentor you.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: The majority of times I've found people are extremely gracious and they love to educate or mentor others, and at and at shape, majority of people, majority of leaders that you see will love to mentor you as well.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: So just reach out to the person you're inspired by and ask them to help you in certain aspects of your career, of your performance, and I'm sure they will help.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: So great, great points.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you both for sharing your time.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I hope that everyone who is listening has taken in some of the main points that we've hoped to cover, which is that effective leaders do have a leadership style that they've honed over time, and mostly it sounds like the most appropriate sort of way to find that leadership style is to really look at yourself and think about what your strengths are.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: How you work with your team to lead them in conflict resolution will help you to be a more effective leader.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: And don't forget about mentorship.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: It should not be overlooked as a vital component of developing your leadership skills.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: I want to thank Dr.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Javed and Ms.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Woods for such a fantastic conversation.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you've both brought very different and unique opinions and perspectives to the conversation.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you both for sharing those with us, and we appreciate you joining us today.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for giving us the opportunity and having this great talk.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for organizing it.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: You can find more educational content like this podcast on Shay's online education center, Learning CE, at www.learningce.shay online.org.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: This concludes today's episode of the Leadership Management series.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for tuning in.