Latest / The Specific Jawns / The Dave Dombrowski Presser From Hell
Transcript
- Pat Barker: What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Specific Jawns Podcast, your official podcast for all things Philadelphia Phillies. We have resisted the urge to become a Sixers podcast. It was tempting, not gonna lie. Both LeBron James and Dave Dombrowski pushing me in that direction. But at the end of the day, we're sticking with the Phillies for now. I'm your host, Pat Barker, joined by my good friend, my co-host, Mike Sambuco, our normal Third musketeer, Carl Bakuti. not here today. We will add him in AI after effects when we are done recording here. but for now it's just me and Mike. Mike, what's up, man? It's been a couple of weeks. How you been? Mike Sambuco: It has been a couple of weeks, and we now know the World Series matchup is gonna be two very small market teams and that gets me excited. Hopefully it it leads to a lessened lockout. We'll see. Pat Barker: I am of the belief that the Dodgers winning or losing or whatever, I think there's gonna be a lockout regardless. but I do Mike Sambuco: Definitely. Pat Barker: think I do think that the owners cannot be happy about this. Because if nothing else, I think it will damage them in the court of public opinion. It's a lot harder to sell a narrative of baseball is you know, irrever irrevocably broken. And small market teams cannot compete when you are you just got done watching a Brewers Rays World Series. So I think if you're if you're hoping to avoid a long lockout, this is the World Series you want. Mike Sambuco: Exactly. Timing couldn't have been better. you can't say the same thing if the lockout would have occurred after the twenty four or twenty five seasons. Pat Barker: yeah. No, if it happened after Dodgers Yankees, it might still be going on today. but that being said, I I I will say this. I don't know what your intentions are. If you're gonna sit there and watch the World Series, I'm gonna try to catch of it as much of it as I can. I'm legitimately excited for this series. Mike Sambuco: I am too. I I think it's a really cool matchup. You got the Freddie Peralta angle, plus just two teams trying to win their first World Series. Pat Barker: Yeah. The Freddie Peralta angle is extra special because th there's an intermediary part where he was terrible for the Mets. That's the part that makes it, in my mind, extra funny. Is that you can't tell the story of how he was a beast for the Brewers and a beast for the Rays without including the four months in the middle where he was absolutely terrible in in in Queens. That's hilarious to me. And and conversely, Jake Bowers, a guy who was a Tampa Bay Ray at one point. and now he was the NLCS MVP. And Peralta was the ALCS MVP. A lot of cool storylines here and just great baseball. I want to see Mizerowski versus, you know, Caminero. I wanna see this is like if you enjoy MLB stat cast posts, this is for you. You got the fastest guy in the league, you got the fastest thrower in the league, you got, you know, the Brewers whose plate approach is completely different than everyone else in the league. Chorio is like a a monster, Camonero is incredible. There's a lot to like here. Mike Sambuco: And I I I read something today that there's only been one starter to throw a pitch over a hundred and one miles per hour. I'll let you guess offline to see who you think that might be. But I'm just excited for Miz on this stage. I th I just think that's gonna be pure theater. Pat Barker: Yeah. Yeah. You you're saying one pitcher in the history of baseball in the World Series to throw a hundred and one? Mike Sambuco: In the World Series. Yep. One starter in the World Series has ever thrown a hundred and one miles per hour. Pat Barker: Well, we don't have to go offline. My guess is Jamie Moyer. Mike Sambuco: Slightly off. Pat Barker: Alright, well, I will keep thinking about it. we can't sit here and talk about good baseball teams who are still playing baseball because w where's the fun in that? That's not what we do here. We talk about the Philadelphia Phillies. I'll tell you this, it is a you you can see out out of my window here, it is a rare rainy day in LA. El Nino is hitting us, and it just for the first time in a long time feels like fall out here. It's hoodie weather, it is the kind of environment that makes me wish that Red October was still going strong. Obviously that's not the case. That's not to say that nothing has happened since the last time we talked. Quite a bit has happened. And I have a feeling the more fun part of this podcast is going to be when we cover the Dave Dombrowski press conference, where a lot was said and there's a lot to break down. But let's start with the official things that have happened And kind of get to those before we get into the more opinion you know, based conversations, such as the Dembrowski thing. Let s let's start with the fact that Don Mattingley, after the Phillies were rejected once again by Alex Cora, Don Mattingley is back on a two-year contract to return to the Phillies and be their manager. for the second time in a span of a few months, Dave Dombrowski very publicly put himself out there. And said, I want to take Alex Corr the prom. He was rejected once again. And then he went to p Plan B, Don Mattingley, who, you know, if you watch his conference call afterwards, he seemed perfectly fine with being Plan B. whatever the case is. Corra's not coming. Mattingly is back after all the reports that he would not be. I'm glad we didn't cover last episode, and I think you talked me out of it. I was like, we should talk about how you'll remember the Don Mattingley era. Well, it is a long way from over. How do you feel about This news. Mike Sambuco: I'll start by saying I I'm a little frustrated that we couldn't convince someone like Alex Cora to jump over to Red Pinstripes. it kinda just has me concerned about w is that just the outside opinion of the Phillies roster right now that I don't want to take that risk where you know, I'm not sure what I'm gonna get out of an aging core. maybe it truly was that he just wanted to have another year with his family while he's still getting paid by the Red Sox. We'll never know. But now that we know that he is definitely not going to be the manager in twenty twenty seven, I'm I'm okay with bringing Mattingley back. I don't think he had the roster to compete for a World Series in twenty six. I also wasn't a hundred percent crazy with everything he did. I don't I think there's always holes to pick in a manager's game, but I think there's f I thought it very interesting that he didn't feel like it was his team last year. It was still Rob Thompson's team and now he can kinda craft and mold the players on the twenty seven roster into what he feels like is the you know perfect way to play. I don't know why he couldn't do that in April, I mean I guess I guess like not having a full spring training is a big deal, but like picking up on the fly and you know, they did turn around fairly quickly under him, but they had their ebbs and flows because they're a a flawed team and had their their their ups and their downs. am I going to say they sort of should have signed somebody else? I don't have a name in mind. I d you know, there were guys that they clearly talked to, that didn't really seem to go anywhere like Raul Banyas, there's even a rumour about Chase Utley, and others. But am I fine with Matting Leap back? Yes. Am I gung ho about it? No. But I think they're c they could have done better, they could have done worse. Pat Barker: Yeah, I think that's a perfectly reasonable take. I agree with it. I I I think one of the reasons he probably felt like he couldn't make the team his own, so to speak, last year, was because of the interim tag. You know what I mean? Like y you get brought in the implication with that tag is, hey, you're a placeholder. You're here until we find the permanent guy. And I fully understand being like, Well, I you know There's only so much I could do. I can't really mold this thing the way I want to. I'm just a warm body. I'm excited to see what he does. I've spoken at length before about how I feel like he is maybe overrated as a manager in Philadelphia because he was a great player. And I think a lot of people assume that great players will make great managers, which is certainly not the case the majority of times. but that being said I got a sample size to see him last year, a pretty sizable one, and he was fine. He was fine. I thought he did a really good job, during the regular season. And as I said on, you know, the the episode after the Phillies were eliminated, I I I'm not even gonna nitpick any decisions he made during the playoffs because he was backed into a corner in in all of those cases, and he did the best he could. so I have no problem with him being back. I hope that he is able to make his mark on the team and and do it the way he wants to. I think there is a little bit of naivete in and y you want that. You want positivity from the manager and to feel like, you know, he can he could do this thing. But when he talks about watching the playoffs after the Phillies were eliminated, he talks about the Brewers and the Rays, and he talks about the way they play the game and different things like that. I assume he realizes that it's not gonna be really easy to take this core of aging veterans who have played one way their entire lives and turn them into the Tampa Bay Rays. it it just it it feels a little bit pie in the sky to watch the Brewers and Rays and be like, Well, if our guys just start playing clean defense and like stealing bases, it's like For the most part, they are who they are, assuming we come back with a similar roster. So I I think that's a little bit naive. But overall, yeah, I mean, I'm fine with it. Mike Sambuco: Well I I I do think there is opportunity on the speed portion of of the game on offense. I think you know, you have the the combo of Turner, Stott, and Crawford that clearly have s speed and just c didn't utilize it as often as they could. especially Turner, for me, he's the one. He's gotta get on base more, but he's he's gotta utilize those wheels ahead of Schwarber Harper if he's leading off. And and that, you know, just whether it's sh Craw Crawford or Stott, who who didn't get thrown out out on the bases last year, he di he was a hundred percent on steals, and maybe he just needs to go more often. but those three guys, I think they have the opportunity to to put that fear in the back of a pitcher's mind that distracts them from making the pitch they need to make. And I think that's where the offensive approach could be impacted is if a pitcher's got two things on his mind as opposed to just focusing on throwing strike one, then I think that changes everything. Pat Barker: Yeah, for sure. And he did say that specifically about Stott. He said, Yeah, he went, you know, i I I forget what the exact number was, but he didn't get thrown out at all. He's like, I would like to see him steal ten more bases and if that means getting thrown out three or four times, I'm I'm fine with that. So yeah, I mean the the Phillies have historically always kinda picked their spots. I mean, even back on those great the the eight, that era You know, Utley and Worth and all these guys were stealing bases at a 90% clip, and it was, you know, Davy Lopes had these guys knowing when to run. so I guess, yeah, they could run a little bit wild. As you said at the beginning, though, the the key is getting on base. which means that the the hitting approach is going to have to change, which brings us to our next official thing that has happened. Finally, hallelujah, Kevin Long is gone. He is out of the organization as the hitting coach. We not just on this podcast, but every Phillies fan I feel like has been begging for this. We finally got what we were asking for. And he takes along with him Bobby Dickerson, who I'm indifferent towards one way or the other. He's the infield coach. w you know, thank you for your service. I I have nothing against you. Kevin Long, I never want to see you again. They have already hired former Mets manager Carlos Mendoza to take over as the infield coach and as the third base coach. Which means Dusty Wathen will, I assume, remain in the bench coach role. hitting coach, still waiting to find out what is gonna happen there. But the big news is Kevin Long is gone and Dombrowski and Mattingley both talked a little bit about different hitting approaches and some things they'd like to do differently next year. you don't have to give me a name as to who you'd like to see as hitting coach. If you got one, feel free. But just talk to me about specifically the the weight that has been lifted with Kevin Long's departure. Mike Sambuco: Yeah, if if anything was done this off season that was probably the easiest box to check. despite the fact that he had multiple years left on his contract, Kevin Lawn needed to go. It was getting to the point where like we've done this for how many years and we've seen the same results over and over and over. And the fact that he got a contract extension last year was kinda surprising to a lot of people, but it It made sense to retain him in the in the sense that they were coming off a decent offensive regular season. now with what happened in twenty six, that that's not the case and everyt ev just about everybody took a step back. so him him going is is a step in the right direction. I don't know who they're gonna replace him with. I don't have names in mind, but it's it's it's kinda like thr throwing red meat to a pack of lions or bears and they're just ready for something to change, this was the easiest change they could make. Pat Barker: Yeah. If for no other reason than to save themselves you know, in in the PR department a little bit. this seemed like a no brainer. That being said, I'm glad that they actually went through with it and and did it. I don't have a name. I I would caution anybody out there. You're gonna hear names like Manny Ramirez floated and guys who were Hall of Fame level players. I there's a reason Barry Bonds lasted one season. with the Marlins. There's a reason Mark McGuire lasted one one or two seasons with the Dodgers. it's because it's really hard when you are that naturally good to convey everything you know to guys who are not on your level. Because an element of it is I don't know, I see the ball and then I hit it five hundred feet. Have you tried that? and our guys, I think would really benefit from having somebody who overachieved during their career. I would rather have a guy in here who was never the level of player that Bryson Stott or Brandon Marsh or, you know, Derek Hill ever was. But to tell i I want a guy to come in and be like, man, if I had your natural skill, whew, I would have been a an all-star. and to sort of elevate those guys. And the approach is a big part of that. I think, you know, pitch selection is just going to be it's gonna be huge. It's gonna be something that we know they can do. They did it for one month. They teased us with one incredible month in August where they played baseball the way you're supposed to play baseball, and then they reverted back to their old ways. I need somebody in the dugout who's not gonna be afraid to go up to these guys and be like, you're better than this. We we can't we can't keep doing this. Mike Sambuco: Yeah, and it and it's not just the hitting coach. That's where that was one of the areas where I was like, Mattingly needs to be that guy too, in terms of ruffling feathers and getting people uncomfortable with the status quo. and and that's where, as you mentioned earlier, the interim tag being lifted for Mattingley can kinda give him that comfort to do that. And and maybe that's what it takes for somebody like him to to get comfortable with being the guy that's a little tougher on the team that needs to improve and in situations where they're not performing or not living up to expectations just as a ball player, whether that's a hustle related effort or just mental mistakes, you need to have that guy like a Pat Murphy who's unafraid to sit down somebody who no matter what their stature is. Pat Barker: Yeah. And frankly, Pat Murphy went so far in the opposite direction a couple of times. There was one time where he benched Cooper Pratt for not running out a ball that like you watched the replay and he he ran it out. Like he he couldn't tell where it was off the bat and he like hesitated for a second and then he just like took off rot like it clearly wasn't a lack of hustle and Pat Murphy was like, I don't give a fuck, you're out of the game. And you know, it it all it all worked. That being said, there is a way to do it and a way not to do it. Which we will talk about a little bit more when we get to the Dave Dembrowski press conference. because I love the idea of players being held accountable and players, you know, being held to a high standard. I just think it's you know, it it depends on how you do it. But let's get through the one more thing. That was an official move that happened. They have announced that they will be retaining the services of Tim Mesa. They've signed Tim Maj Mesa to a new major league contract. Mesa, one of the better arms out of the bullpen last year, especially down the stretch. One of the only people that I even remotely trusted as October approached. and he'll be back. Thoughts. Mike Sambuco: to me, I'm happy to have him back as like a sixth guy in the bullpen or an opener type, which is how he was used in twenty six. clearly Mattingley loved him 'cause he was seemed to be up almost every game in some capacity. But I was surprised that it took like two I think it was two point seven five million dollars to get him re signed. Like that seemed a bit steep for the type of arm that he is, but happy to have depth. back in the bullpen. they have a lot more holes to fill and a lot more needs that will require a lot more effort down the the road in the off season. Pat Barker: Yeah, two point seven five million is i in twenty twenty six money doesn't even mean anything anymore. You know, if I'm paying twenty dollars for a Chipotle bowl, we could pay three million dollars for the sixth best best relief pitcher on our team. That seems like inflation consistent across all areas. I'm just happy to have a competent arm in there. And when you consider what we paid Brad Keller, you know, on his deal. Three million is probably two point seven five, rather, is is is a bargain. Alright, so that's that's all the official comings and goings, all the official moving and shaking. We're gonna do a full off-season kind of preview episode for our next one where we lay out what we would do and you know discuss that kind of stuff. but that can't take place until five days after the World Series, I believe, is when free agency goes live. And then it is either going to be A mad rush before December 1st with the looming lockout, or everybody's gonna be terrified to spend anything because they don't know the new rules. And we're gonna have to wait it out. I don't know what's gonna happen for that month, but I do know that at the beginning of it, we will record an episode where we lay out what we would do if we were in Dave Dombrowski's shoes. Let's talk now about some news and notes from the two press conferences. most of the stuff I have down is Dombrowski stuff because I felt like that was the more headline grabbing of the two. He spoke for over an hour to the Philadelphia media, and he had a lot to say. he had a lot that he didn't say, namely that he was responsible for anything that happened in any way. That was that was an interesting thing to me. I don't wanna hijack this one right away. So why don't you why don't we start with what you took away from the press conference? What was your major takeaway? Mike Sambuco: the closest thing to accountability that he gave us was I d got us into this hole and I will get us out of this hole type statement. Which you know, Dave, you really dug us a big hole at this point potentially. So, I don't know if I trust him to be the one to get out of it out out of get us out of this hole, but he clearly has John Middleton's ear. Middleton loves him. more than so I'll take it a step back. back in I think it was April or May, I got to see John Middleton speak at Villanova's campus and one of this was right after Topper got fired, maybe two weeks after. And so it must have been May. one of the things that stood out to me during that conversation was the how much he loved Dave Donbrowski. to the point where he said, like, if I'm comparing him to Pat Gillick, I pick Dave every time. So in my eyes, moving on from Dave was never going to happen. and I think Dave is gonna be here for it's and then again. And I think Dave knows it at this point. He's like, I'm gonna be here as long as I I I want to be and and I I just am concerned that he is not the right guy for this, but y in If I'm going to take anything away from the press conference as a whole, it's that big bold moves need to be made, and I don't think he's going to make Pat Barker: No. No, and the reason one of the reasons he's not going to make them is because and this is where the quote that you're referring to came from. It wasn't even the answer to a question about him taking accountability and he said, I got us into this mess and I'm gonna get us out. It wasn't a rah-rah speech. It was like you know, from a comedian's perspective, it wasn't the punchline, it was just part of the setup. He just said in like a answering a question about making big moves or like trading some of the big names, he was like kinda like, Well, I mean look, there there's no trade deals, there's ten and five rights and everything and like and he caught himself and he was kinda like, which y you know, I'm I I'm the one who put us in, you know, the situation and then but it he didn't immediately follow that up with I'm gonna get us out. It was just kinda like, Well, I put us in this situation where we can't trade any of the big guys, so we're not going to. And I don't know. It didn't exactly inspire a ton of confidence in me. the thing that really bothered me, and I alluded to it, is he just didn't he didn't really take any responsibility. There wasn't even a like organizationally like we have to be better. he the moves that didn't work, he was very quick to just be like, Well, we tried that and it didn't work. Not like, it was a bad move, but like it was a great move. He even dipped back into the bag of like his Tigers days. And he's like, I remember the time we traded for Jared Washburn. It was a great trade. And Aubrey Mike Sambuco: An Aubrey Huff, yeah. Pat Barker: Huff. It was a great those were great trades. And those guys didn't it didn't pan out. It's like, okay, well, historically, do you have any examples of a time where you made a deal and you like were wrong? And and you take responsibility for that. Because it didn't seem like it. It seemed like he was like, Yeah, we traded for guys. Some of them sucked. Some of got injured. But, you know, not my fault. Mike Sambuco: Yeah, and and we went over last time how much money they spent on players that didn't end up playing in the postseason, or or making it through the regular season, let alone playing in the postseason. So I I did feel like he he almost scapegoated some of the coaching staff in some of his statements too, because in talking about defensive positioning like we were getting them the metrics and they weren't using it type of statement. Like and Pat Barker: Yeah Yeah. Mike Sambuco: that's why Bobby Dickerson is gone kind of it was it was very just like not my fault kind of vibes. Pat Barker: scapegoating the coaches and the players. I mean he was straight up talking Mike Sambuco: Mm-hmm. Pat Barker: i it drove me nuts when he was like Brandon Marsh I don't know what happened in the second half. He wasn't good. He was an all-star and then he wasn't good and I don't know what happened. Dave, I do. So let me explain it to you. do yourself a favor favor and Google the term regression to the mean. That is what happened. Brandon Marsh is An average to slightly above average Major League Baseball player. He was playing like an all-star. We call that an outlier. The outlier wasn't the fact that he had a bad second half and came back down to earth. The outlier is the fact that he was playing like an all-star because he is not historically an all-star. Now, can some guys, seven, eight years into their career, all of a sudden, you know, figure something out and become all star? Sure. But to sit there and be like, well, I don't know what happened, as if he has never, a guy who's been in baseball as long as Dave Dombrowski, he has never seen a scenario where a guy is hot for a while and then cold for a while, and then kind of ends up right around where he always is. This happens all the time. Conversely, when he talks about Adoles Garcia, he's like, Well, you know, he was really bad, but then he was starting to find his swing. And, you know, if he had stayed healthy, we might have gotten thirty, thirty-five home runs out of him. Maybe, sure. Yeah. If you want to deal in hypotheticals, hypothetically, Dave, you did awesome. You did a great job. I would rather talk about what really happened, which is you went out and got a guy in Adoles Garcia who hadn't really been good in two years. It was You know, only a one year ten ten million dollar contract so in a way it was low, low risk, high reward. You didn't get the reward. You kind of move on. But to sit here and live in an alternate reality where in your mind Garcia hit 30 home runs, and not deal with the reality of like, look, I took a I took a swing that I knew could miss and it missed. That's on me. it felt a little bit crazy to me. and and to scapegoat the players and to Give the details of their conversations, I thought was really weird. Thought it was really weird to be like, and then I told him, you better do this. And he was like, I'm sorry, I wasn't very good last year. And I was like, it's okay, just don't let it happen again. Like, I think he hears, you know, I think he thinks that Philadelphia likes, you know, guys who hold the players accountable and get on them and everything like that. But like, I just thought the way he did it. Scapegoating his entire team, which by the way, he did he scapegoated Harper last year saying he wasn't elite. and it's one thing to scapegoat a player who's making that kind of money. You kind of get away with it a little bit. But if you're sitting there and being like, the reason that we had a disappointing season was because of Dolas Garcia and Brandon Marsh and Caleb Killian didn't work out the way I thought, well, then your plan sucked to begin with. Mike Sambuco: Yeah. And and and we we've talked about how frustrating last off season was and we went into the season without a competent bullpen and injuries happened and it got even worse. So I I I just I don't see what John Middleton sees. I wish I did. I would love to see well, would love to be a fly on the wall inside the org for, you know, actual baseball conversations within within the team and and their offices, but I I just I don't have that same level of confidence that we're gonna get out of it with him leading the charge. Pat Barker: No, I mean it seems very similar to what's going on in the Bronx with, you know, them announcing that Brian Cashman and Aaron Boone would be back next year. It's obvious that Hal Steinbrenner loves those guys, despite the fact that they have, you know, failed repeatedly. Like when you're on this level with this kind of payroll, there's expectations and, you know, you would think that if somebody doesn't meet them, there'd be consequences, but that does not seem to be the case. I also hated in particular I I don't know who asked the question, but somebody asked a question about if Middleton is going to change or reevaluate how he makes decisions in like the bullpen, for instance. How he looks at guys that he acquires there. And it was basically a softball question to be like To take accountability and be like, hey, I made moves, they didn't work out, and like maybe yeah, I gotta go back to the drawing board. Instead, he almost tried to sell us on the idea that the bullpen isn't that bad. I Mike Sambuco: That that's concerning. Yeah. I mean, sure Pat Barker: Yeah. Mike Sambuco: there could be some upside with Caleb Killian. we obviously got got to see Alex McF McFarland's upside that at the end of the season. And I mean there's some guys like Kyle Kyle Backus that you know, he was high on trading for last off season and just didn't work out. Maybe like there's just so many names you go down the line and there's upside. There's potential. on some of the young arms in the pen, but you know, you gotta see it on the field too. Pat Barker: Yeah. Yeah. And we haven't, and he just kind of glossed over it. He was just kind of like, Well, yeah, the guys who were bad, we expect them to not be bad and you know, the guys who were good, we expect them to stay good and we expect everybody to be healthy and you know, he it was very weird. I I feel like the one slam dunk he could have gotten out of the press conference is to be like, Yeah, the bullpen was terrible and I own that. The good news is The bullpen is the easiest area of a team to make over. The contracts are short. The money is relatively low. We do have a lot of arms in the minor leagues that we are excited about, but we're not going to bank on them. That's not fair to these guys. We will be looking at adding people from the outside. And, you know, there's a bunch of free agents available. Every year, there are tons of good relief pitchers that change teams in the offseason. And for him to just kind of be going in and if I felt like he was a little bit more shrewd, I would say, well he's saying this publicly, but that's not what he means. He knows this bullpen isn't good enough. The problem is he comes out and telegraphs everything he's gonna do. He shows his hand on everything. yeah, it's crazy. Mike Sambuco: I mean l last year we we we had you know, coming out of his end of season press conference, I kinda had that same opinion of like is he just saying this so that like he's just playing coy and like you know the off season's gonna look a lot different than what he's saying? And then everything that he said kind of materialized during the off season. And I just I don't have any faith that you know, what he's saying is he's not actually going to do. Like I I I have very little confidence and I'm concerned about the future of the franchise with him in charge. Pat Barker: Me too. Let's talk a little bit about the Trey Turner thing. I thought it was really interesting how he answered these questions, and by interesting I mean ridiculous. the first question was in regards to Turner's defense, where, like I say, he he spilled all the beans on a conversation that they had recently where Dombrowski was the big cool guy telling Trey that he has to get his act together and Trey was the little, you know, kid in detention, like, I'm sorry, I'll work hard, and like he came out and said That Trey wants to play shortstop. Trey believes he could play shortstop, but he has to prove it to the Phillies. And if he plays shortstop like he did in 25, he could be the shortstop. If he plays like he did in 26, he can't. Why Dave is sitting there telegraphing that Trey Turner is going to be A, the opening day shortstop, and B a guy that they are not really super confident in being the shortstop. I don't know who that benefits. because you know, theoretically in the offseason, what if the Reds call you and go, hey, Ellie De La Cruz for Andrew Painter and Gage Wood straight up? Are you gonna say, no, because we promised Trey he could be the guy? Like it doesn't that's an insane hypothetical, but I don't understand what good it does four months before opening day, f six months before opening day, to be like, This guy is going to be our shortstop. And then When somebody asks about the batting order, he's like, Well, that's a Don question. Mattingly, he's the one who controls the lineups. So Mattingley doesn't control what positions the guys play, but he does control the line ups. I thought that was contradictory and weird. and I just didn't I didn't like any of his Turner related answers. what did you think? Mike Sambuco: I I found it confounding that he is unable to put the player in the right position. It's the team that decides, whether that's Mattingley, Dembrowski, whoever. The team decides where the players play. Trey can say, Yes, I wanna play shortstop as much as he wants, but if your performance isn't up to it, you're not gonna be the shortstop. And it clearly wasn't up to Snuff in twenty twenty six. I'm disappointed they didn't tell him to go to the outfield. Disappointed they didn't tell him to go to second base. I I don't see the benefit of going down this path because it makes it even makes Dave Dombrowski's job harder this offseason because of the uncertainty. And it also puts a pile of pressure. Every single play will be magnified with Triet shortstop this season. And if he makes an error in the first week, ooh is he gonna be moved off? Makes another error. Ooh, is that the can the straw that broke the camel's back? Like what is the breaking point now? Like w w it it's just gonna be a storyline for the entire season one way or the other. Pat Barker: Especially for a guy like Trey who and I I say this not as an insult because I find it to be I don't wanna say a character flaw, but a personality trait that I have as well in my own life, where when you feel like, you know, you have to be too fine, you have to be too perfect, you are a more prone to make mistakes and b more prone to let those mistakes snowball because you're like, well Now a all eyes are on me. And I'm talking about me doing things that are under one one millionth of the microscope of Trey Turner. The microscope only exists in my mind. I don't have to listen to sports talk radio and scroll through Instagram and see people like talking shit about me and let that affect me as well. Trey Turner is a guy who we have seen be extraordinarily streaky on both sides of the ball. He is a guy that when he got a standing ovation, maybe coincidentally, maybe not, started hitting the cover off the ball. He seems like a guy for whom confidence might be an issue. And to put it in those terms where it's like, well, if if you f if you mess up, you're you're gone. I don't know, it's just weird. I think this was the time to get ahead of it and just, yeah, move him to the outfield, or at the very least, be non-committal to it. And be like, look, we gotta do what's best for the team. We have a whole offseason. We gotta see kind of who's available and how this team comes together. And he did say at one point in the press conference, after everything as kind of like an asterisk, he was like, you know, Trey is ultimately gonna do what's best for the Philadelphia Phillies. Trey is he wants to be a shortstop, but if the day comes where he has to move to the outfield, he's gonna do what's best for the team. but that should have been the only That should have been the only takeaway from the beginning. He should have told Trey that exact thing, like, you will do what's best for the team, and that's gonna be the end of it. Right, bud? Mike Sambuco: Hey kiddo. Pat Barker: Hey dude, what do you think of Trey Turner? Trey Okay, that's copyright of music. That's gonna get us kicked off of YouTube. Go say hi to your mom. Close the door. Jesus Christ. This is supposed to be a professional operation. I I Mike Sambuco: Well how do I how do I come up after that? Pat Barker: I don't I don't yeah. I don't He took his shirt off today. and I was like, why did you take your shirt off? He's in this he he apologizes for everything. I was like, hey, why'd you take your shirt off? He goes, sorry. I was like, No, it's okay, you don't have to apologize. Like, I just want to know why you did it. And he just goes, 'Cause I like being naked. And I'm like, all right, that's weird, but all right, whatever. so anyway, Mike Sambuco: That's Pat Barker: cameo from my son. Mike Sambuco: Love it. Love Pat Barker: Yeah. Mike Sambuco: it. Love seeing Grafton. So the he the other thing that I I just wanted to flag on on the tray topic is he he obviously needs to improve his bat as well this offseason. And I feel Pat Barker: Mm. Mike Sambuco: like refocusing him on shortstop takes away from what might need to occur at the plate. And So I think they had an opportunity to take to get out ahead of this and say, you're moving to a less important defensive position, focus on hitting, get to where you need to get to, because at the end of the day, his value is going to be determined by his bat more than his glove. Pat Barker: I agree. and you know, regardless of those conversations, at the very least Dave should play the cards a little bit closer to the best publicly. And he should come out and be Yeah, we've had talks. you know, Trey knows that he he wasn't thrilled with how last season went. And he's he's a pro and he's gonna do what's best for the team and like it would be foolish of me to even like speculate on where he's gonna play. We don't even know what the roster's gonna be. So, you know, we're just gonna kick the can down the road on that one and and we'll deal with it when it's time to deal with it. But like everybody knows that he has to he has to be better, and I think he will. That's all you gotta say. That's I said nothing. And 'Cause he did the same thing with Harper. He's like, Harper's gonna be our first baseman. Who does that benefit? You coming out and and saying that? I don't get it. Mike Sambuco: And and it's it's it's almost like he he challenged him in a way that we all suspected he challenged Harper last year with the not elite comments, without the the similar soundbite of that statement for Trey, but like clearly needs to improve. And that's that's that's a fair statement to make, and I think Trey would agree. But I just I don't think he went about it the right way in discussing it, as well as I don't think he made the right decision. Pat Barker: Yeah. I I agree. and but I you know, I I guess it just I think the most frustrating thing beneath all of it is the fans are and they you know, the reporters asked about the fans. And he was kinda like I mean, he said the right thing there, he like, Yeah, we love the fans, the fans are great, but he he was basically like I don't think he is taking into account and maybe he shouldn't But I don't think he's taking into account how frustrated the fan base actually is and how that could have a legitimate negative impact, you know, at the at the gates. Mike Sambuco: Well, I I don't think there's any doubt in my mind that he knows exactly what's happening with the season ticket holders. they are leaving in in waves. It is ugly, apparently, based on what I'm seeing in Facebook ticket groups that I'm in. one person after the other is posting that they're not renewing. ticket prices did go up and the exodus is is occurring. Pat Barker: And that's where if I was John Middleton, because you you and I both know the frustration from the fan base is more about the the stagnancy than it is the results. Making the playoffs and losing Mike Sambuco: Yeah. Pat Barker: every year, sure, is is frustrating, but it's the feeling that they are not changing anything. So to come out and immediately set the expectations of like, hey, we're not even considering starting the season with Trey Turner anywhere other than shortstop. We're not even considering starting the season with Bryce Harper in right field. It doesn't matter who's available or what's gonna happen we we we're giving ourselves no flexibility in that area. We are letting you know right now the thing that pisses you off the most is exactly what we're gonna do again. If I'm John Middleton, I sit him down and I'm like, yo, at least wait until after the season ticket renewal date and make these people think that there could be a different shortstop next year. it's just foolish. Anyway, let's move on to something that he said that I I did agree with. I do think is is smart and I I think it's okay to telegraph this as well. My only concern is whether or not they actually implement it because I know at least with JT Realmuto they've talked about it, but they did talk openly about how they want to get guys off their feet a little bit more next year. They wanna rest them and put themselves in a position where you know, JT and Bryce and Schwabs and all these guys can get a l take some extra days off. Bryce just he was proud of himself. He played all in all 162. I don't think anybody wants that to happen again next year. Schwarber is apparently open to playing more first base. He said that Bryce is open to occasionally going to the outfield to get guys off their feet. I don't know who it's not like you're gonna need to get Justin Crawford off his feet so you'll move Bryce to the outfield. Like it doesn't make any sense. but you know, I do agree with the overall idea of this is an older team and maybe they would benefit from not having to play 155 games every single year. what did you think about that? Mike Sambuco: Yeah, it's always been that type of concern with an aging core and having a locked in DH in Schwarber when they re-signed him last offseason. That was that was the only concern I had with that signing is you have aging guys like Harper and Schwar Schwarber, and Real Muto, and you can even add Turner to that. I mean he's not getting any younger, but the fact that they are planning for Schwarber to play in the field gives him some time in the off season to get ready for that. him at first base is not pretty, but it or even left field is even more ugly. But I wanna I think it's a good thing to do to keep them fresh so that they are at least their body feels ready for October. And heck, I mean, this could be a shortened season, this could be the best thing for an aging Phillies roster. But I have no problem with that and I I I just would like to s actually see it because as you mentioned earlier, they've said this for about three years with JT. They wanna get him out from behind the plate more often and that has never really happened. Pat Barker: Yeah, they need a better backup catcher. And he I mean, he was pretty forthright about that. in specifically calling out the fact that neither Marshawn nor Stubbs hit at all, which is true. they need to get better back there so they feel comfortable giving JT some days off. they were talking about maybe playing JT at first base a little bit. My my thing is just get competent backups and let these guys have just the the day off. I don't think we need to be you know, moving these guys around to first base and pushing Harper into the outfield. Just give him give him the day off. But that means having, you know, better bench pieces. And much like the bullpen, by the way, he was already kind of, you know, saying like, well, Brandon Marsh is a good platoon piece, so we need a righty to compliment him. And then I think Crawford and Hill work well together he's already like, you know, committing publicly to like Yeah, I think this team is pretty much good enough, with like a couple little tweaks, and I I don't think anybody wants to hear that. I have two more questions I want to get to. I'm gonna save the one about the prospects for last, because he had different things to say about kind of their minor league system and some of the guys that could factor into some of their plans at the big league level next year. And I know that's your area, so I'm gonna let you cook on that one to to end this podcast. But I wanted to ask you about one thing, and again, it's him saying too much in my mind, but they asked about the possibility of him dealing from the crop of starting pitching, with the idea being that starting pitching is the one area where you have an overabundance of talent, a lot of which would have significant trade value. And the question was posed, you know, would you consider dealing from them? And he started off by saying, like, look, I'm not gonna tell you who we might and might not trade. I'm not gonna get into that. But then he was immediately like, No, we have no interest in trading any of our starting pitchers. that's our area of strength. And it's like, yeah, that's what the guy's question was. Obviously, it's an area of strength. You have several areas of weakness. Do you want to pull from one and add to the other? I hate the fact that He seems so, you know, hesitant to the idea of even considering trading any of those guys. I am of the mind that you should be open to whatever. And that doesn't mean that you have to do it. but we saw this year in the playoffs that the old school way of kind of building a pitching staff, a lights out pitching staff, and then just riding it to a World Series championship. It doesn't Really apply. And I say old school, but the Braves with that pitching staff won one World Series in 14 years. The Phillies with Halliday and Lee and Hammels and Oswald couldn't win anything. This is not the first time an insanely good pitching staff has fallen short of expectations. and I think it's crazy to have all these other holes in the team and not even ask yourself hey, theoretically, if Aaron Nola is back. To being anything close to what he was, and Andrew Painter has taken a step forward. Would we be better off trading Jesus Lazardo for three or four major league ready pieces that could contribute next year in some way in the bullpen or in the lineup? it seems crazy to not even consider that. but w what do you what do you think about his hesitancy to deal from any of the pitching? Mike Sambuco: Yeah, I think th the the inflexibility of like immediately shutting it down, I don't know if that's just GM speak or if he's truly f thinking that way, but I tend to think that he's truly thinking that way. and I don't necessarily agree with it. I think there are opportunities that you should not pass up if you get a good enough offer for one or any number of them. having said that, I do think The idea of Zack Wheeler potentially pitching his final season next year kind of throws a wrench into things. I don't think Zack is one that they would even consider trading. but if it's one of the other two, you know, pretty darn good pitchers and Sanchez and Lazardo with fairly good contracts, like where does that leave you if he does end up retiring in where does that leave you for twenty twenty eight and beyond? So I get that. the guy who like is just like a you know, stone cold like we should at least try to get something for him and see what the market is, is Aaronola, but he's got ten and five rights and s has the opportunity to veto any trade. So it's not just that he's inflexible, it's like potentially up to the players as well. so Would I like to see them explore that idea? Absolutely. Do I think they will? No. Pat Barker: And I think that's what my frustration boils down to. You nailed it. The inflexibility, in some cases, you don't have a choice. And we're gonna talk about this more on our our offseason preview episode, but I'm seeing everybody in the comments like trade Trey Turner and there are no trade clauses, there are ten and five rights. Could you get around that and convince somebody to take a deal? Maybe. But there are you've created a ton of inflexibility for yourself. Anyway, I that's why it's so much more frustrating to look at guys that theoretically you would not have that level of inflexibility with and just self-impose it at this point and be like, well, I'm not trading that guy. It's like you only have so many assets. And this thing where you look at it like, well, why would I want to trade any of my good players? It's like because that's the only thing other teams might want. That's it. Yeah, I mean you could sit here and be like, you know, but Dave Dave is the president of baseball operations. He's not some schlub in a comment section who's like, you know what they should do is trade a Ryan Kirkering for Otani. You know what I mean? Like, he should he should know better than this. He should and maybe he does. Maybe it seems crazy for me to sit here and pretend that he doesn't, but I'm telling you the way he telegraphs everything publicly to his own detriment makes me think that he is being honest when he says this. and yeah, I think we'll we'll see it in the tickets next year if he really well and truly believed that they can for the most part run this thing back and and and win. The one thing he did say about infusing some new blood, the new blood seems like it would come from our own ranks in the minor leagues. He talked about how Aidan Miller and Brian Rincone could factor in on the offensive side of the ball. He also mentioned Gage Wood, on the pitching side. He said he is not far away. and I think there was one more pitcher that he he referenced. he touted, you know, the debuts of Alex McFarlane and Justin Crawford as examples of, you know, and Andrew Painter, of you know, the future coming up and contributing. But he seems gung ho on those three guys that I named Miller, Rincone, and Wood. It had to be music to your ears as the prospect guy. Mike Sambuco: Well, y I think I've made it clear I am absolutely a huge fan of Aiden Miller and I'm just ecstatic to see him at least playing baseball right now in the Arizona Fall League and you know, having a good you know season down there, despite the fact that it's not typically like great pitching that you get to face in the Arizona Fall League. But you know, coming off of a season that was mostly lost due to a back injury, you had major concerns about what you're gonna get from him going forward, not just in twenty six, but in future years too. I do think he's the type of impact bat that has a good glove and good speed. He's the type of bat and player that they need to infuse into this lineup, that young, youthful energy that gets them twenty home runs and, you know, double digit steals in a season. not saying he's gonna do that as a rookie, but like that's the type of bat that he could be when he he gets a few years under his belt. I I am very curious. Are they going to say, Aiden, you're it's your job to lose at third base or second base, wherever they decide to put if Trey's starting the year at shortstop. But I was a little more surprised about the Brian Rincone comment just because he kind of came out of nowhere this year in in double A with with Reading. had a fantastic year up there, but was was more of a I think he was like a mid round pick, not as highly touted as an Aiden Miller first rounder, but plays fantastic defense. And I mean he's the type of maybe he's like a utility bat going forward, but I was surprised that he was mentioned in the twenty twenty six plans to be quite honest. Gage Wood is the one that just perplexes me. Is like if you're not gonna trade from your five starting pitchers, where does he fit in? And if it's not the rotation, maybe that's a a place we can put him is is the bullpen, and obviously we need help in the bullpen. but that's not what you've been trying to do with him so far. You've tried to stretch him out as a starter. And I'm very curious as to if they've decided that. Maybe that's not the right path for a guy like Gage Wood. but do I think he can pitch in the majors? Absolutely. do I think he can pitch next year in the majors? I I would love to see it, but it probably wouldn't be on opening day, it would probably be more like a mid season call up. Pat Barker: Yeah, and look, if he if he goes to the bullpen, we we do need help in the bullpen. And I think this is how like a lot of teams bring their guys along. Maybe guys who are going to be starters get their first look as relief pitchers. And I understand that yes, th you know, if the Phillies rotation is healthy and Nola is decent, there should be no reason to put Gagewood in the rotation. So but Yeah, it seems like that's kind of the only option is the bullpen. And, you know, I if if Dave is truly being honest that he has no plans to deal from the major league starting rotation, I really hope that the plan isn't to trade Gage Wood. you know, and fill holes that way. Because I think that, you know, you picked up on it. There's only five rotation spots. They have no spot for Gage Wood. You're you're you're hurting your own leverage in a deal like that. If teams are like, well, yeah, he's not worth a lot to you because you have this kind of rotation. I you know, I I just don't see kind of the point in it. on the offensive side, similarly, by committing to Trey Turner at shortstop, by committing to Bryce Harper at first base and by obviously the fact that, you know, Bryson Stott is going to be at one of the two remaining infield positions, you are basically, you know, saying that we're probably not gonna they're not gonna bring Bohm back. I think that's obvious. Mike Sambuco: I'd be pretty surprised if they brought him. Pat Barker: And by the way, and I we'll get into this more next week, but the people who are like, You gotta bring Bohm back, what are you people watching? I just watched this guy post four war across seven seasons, knock it off. He's f he's fine. Mike Sambuco: It just goes to show how poor the free agent class is that you're even considering. Pat Barker: No, the people I'm talking about don't know anything about the free agent class. The people I'm talking about are like, well, he's the only guy who hit for us in September and October, and that's true. But you can't let one and a half good months overcome the last seven years. He is not he's not the guy that you you need. If we were in a position where we could bat him seventh, sure, whatever. But we're not. So let's move on. But the fact that, you know, you're overcommitting to all this stuff right away, it makes me think Louisa Rise probably won't be back. Mike Sambuco: I would be surprised Pat Barker: I Mike Sambuco: if he came back just based on some of the comments around defense and the improvement Pat Barker: Yeah. Mike Sambuco: they want to see there. Pat Barker: And and similarly in in in that vein, I think this kind of closes the door on Sato, the the Japanese third baseman, the two-time MVP from NPB. He has a triple crown. He wasn't a perfect fit for this team anyway, because he is a left-handed bat and this team is left-handed bat heavy. but you know, he was a guy that I I was looking at, you know, as as a guy who could replace Alec Boehm. But they are already kind of like telegraphing their moves. I really think by saying that Turner is going to be their shortstop and Harper's going to their first baseman, they they have almost no flexibility i in the infield. And you're not going to bring in a guy on any sort of like long-term let's say they bring back Boehm. Let's just say. Now you got Turner for what, six more years, you got Bohm however long you sign him for. You have Stott, who theoretically you would want to be part of your future, and you have Harper who has a bunch of years left on his deal. Where are you putting Aiden Miller when you bring him up? Where are you putting Brian Rincone? Where are you putting any of those guys? So I I don't know. I hope that and I was I was happy to see that Dave is at least saying that Miller and Rincone and all those guys are part of the calculus. I just I hope that they can contribute and they are given the opportunity to and because this team definitely needs some sort of like youthful. you know, transfusion for twenty twenty. Mike Sambuco: absolutely. And and and whether like to me Rin Cohen is like more of a twenty twenty eight guy that could theoretically replace Stott if he's good enough to be an everyday player. and but Aiden Miller could be a starter day one in twenty seven for me. If he's if he comes out and lights the world on fire in spring training, I I find it hard to keep him off the roster. that's on on the s the teriaki sato piece, like they they're already saying like they would have interest in as or like a right fielder as opposed to an infielder. so like the the Philly's interest at least is more corner outfield focused. Pat Barker: Okay. Missed missed that quote. would love to be proven wrong, by the way. I was already skeptical because of their history in dealing with any sort of like Asian Mike Sambuco: It'll be tough to convince the th that type of player who has interest from just about every big market pro team probably, but we'll see. Pat Barker: Yeah, we I mean that's the thing with with the Phillies. We'll see. We'll always see. The the thing never stops moving and we we'll just keep talking about it. I'm excited to dig in a little bit more next week on what they should do this off season. I think we're gonna have to frame it as what we would do, not what we expect them to do, because that episode would be very, very depressing. But we'll be back next week to talk a little bit more about that. that's Mike Sambuco. I'm Pat Barker. This is the Specific Johns Podcast. do us a favor, like, rate, subscribe, all that kind of stuff, and tell a friend or you know, whatever you guys do. until next time, go fills.