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The GM Playbook with Tom Telesco · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Rosters to Rings once again alongside Ryan McDonough.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: I am fad Levine first and foremost ran we missed
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: you dearly while you're gone, Welcome back.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it that it's great to be back with you,
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: and I'll admit I feel bad about missing a few weeks.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: My wife and I went on our tenth anniversary trip.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: We had a great time in Croatia and then Amsterdam,
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: and I thought that was a good excuse to not
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: do the show. And then I'm listening to the show
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: as we're bouncing around Europe and having a great time relaxing,
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: and I hear you recording the show from Majorca, and
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: so I said, man, being in that time zone, being
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: six hours ahead of the East Coast, I thought would
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: get me out of it. But apparently that's not an excuse.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: So you know, I was like the guy who didn't
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: do everything he could, and you were the guy who
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: like sprinted out the ground ball and got to first
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: base safely. And now I look bad by comparison.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Well, our numbers in Croatia, in Amsterdam and in Spain
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: have really spiked over the last couple of weeks. We're
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: up to two and three in those respective countries. I
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: also wanted to say thank you to John Daniels for
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: filling in at an exceptional job. Really appreciate it. But Rian,
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: it is absolutely wonderful to have you back. We've got
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: a tremendous show here today. Equally excited is we're going
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: to start our NFL coverage. We're going to bring on
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: in segment two, Tom to LESCo over twenty seven years
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: of experience in the NFL to join the conversation with
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: me and Ryan. But Rian, we saved this question for
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: your return. RF of Southern California wanted us to dive
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: a little bit into why we think NBA franchises are
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: selling for so much more than their MLB counterparts. And Ryan,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: before you share your thoughts, I just want to give
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: the listeners a little perspective here. Let's put off to
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: the side for the second the marquee franchise, the Celtics,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: the Lakers. Let's look at like the last four kind
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: of mid to smaller market teams that are sold in
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: each sport. The Portland Trailblazers and Phoenix Suns each sell
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: for approximately four billion dollars. The Baltimore Orioles in the
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Tampa Bay Rays sell for approximately one point seven billion.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: None of those four teams is a marquee market or franchise.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: They're all kind of small to medium market teams. Ryan,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: share your thoughts. Why do you think there's such a
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: disparity right now in the valuations of NBA and MLB franchises.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I think there are a couple factors that. The first
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: is the giant national TV deal that Adam Silver and
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: the folks who run the NBA just negotiated. I believe
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: it was an eleven year deal, seventy seven billion dollars
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: something like that. That's a huge number. Obviously. The only
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: league I think that's ever done more than that is
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: the NFL. And we know the stranglehold the NFL has
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: on TV ratings. When you look at the top one
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: hundred year in a year out, I'd say seventy five
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: to eighty five or ninety of those are NFL games,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and the Super Bowl is year in a year out
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: the highest rated show. So I think we'd all admit
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: from a business financial perspective, the NFL is king, but
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I think the NBA has slotted in right behind that
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: that and I think the National TV deals are a
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: big reason why. I think another you know, significant factor was,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: you know, like a lot of assets, whether it's real
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: estate or stocks. During the pandemic, things just kind of
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: went parabolic. And I know some of those others have
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: cooled down a bit, but anybody who's I think looking
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: to buy a house would say, well, they haven't cooled
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: down that much, you know, over the last five years.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: And I bring that up because you mentioned the numbers
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: for those franchises, the Orioles and Rays in the mid ones,
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: say one point five to one point seven. Well, just
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: five years ago that's where NBA franchisees traded. The Utah
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Jazz were I think one point five to one point
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: seven somewhere in that range. Same with the Minnesota Timberwolves.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: And in fact, the Timberwolves deal looked obsolete so quickly
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: that it was a staggered transaction to a guy that
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Major League Baseball fans know very well and one of
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: the lead owners, Alex Rodriguez, along with Mark Lori, they negotiated.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I think what we'll go down is one of the
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: best deals in recent sports history.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Thad.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: I think that was one point five or thereabouts billion
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: dollars for the Wolves and with a stager your multi
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: year transaction. They almost got too good of a deal,
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: and it became very contentious with Glenn Taylor, the owner,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: who was looking at some of the teams you mentioned,
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: including Phoenix, including Milwaukee, which sold you know, kind of
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: semi control shares in the three to four billion dollar range,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: and I think Glen Tailor wisely said, well, if somehow
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: this deal falls apart, and then I relisted, I could
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: get double you know, the one point five billion I'm getting.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of it from an NBA perspective. I
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: want to get your thoughts from a Major League Baseball
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: perspective because kind of two things in particular that stand
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: out to me. And as you know, I kind of
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: dabble in the sports team deal space peripherally, but as
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I look at the Major League Baseball evaluations, the two
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: things that really seem to be holding them back, in
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: my opinion, are the regional sports networks and some of
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: the struggles they've had that kind of Bally Diamonds and
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: Claire Triangle. And we won't go too deep in the
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: weeds on the holding companies the regional sports networks, but
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: I think about eighteen major league teams are under that umbrella,
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: and some of those have frankly seemingly gone bankrupt or
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: not being able to televise game, So that that is
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: really seemed to be a drag those local TV contracts,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: especially when you play one hundred and sixty two games
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: a year, more games than any other sport, and most
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: of them are on local TV. So I think that
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: that that's kind of you know, present or looking backward.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: I think looking forward, the threat of a lockout too
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: is kind of you know, looming and the labor stoppage.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: And I've really enjoyed the last three episodes. I think
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: you and John Daniels did a tremendous job, and you know,
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: bringing in experts, whether it's Rick Han, Michael Young, Jeff Passon,
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: you know, some of that talk is really intriguing to me.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: So but I want to get your take on it,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: just as we, you know, we look at the leagues
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: kind of from thirty thousand feet, because to me, it
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: does seem like there's if I were buying a team today,
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: I'd probably be looking at Major League Baseball first and foremost,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: just because of the price point, you know, I put
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: it a different way. I don't think you'll ever see
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: an NBA team sell for less than three billion again,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: and the first number might be a four, might be
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: four billion.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: On up.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: You mentioned a couple teams, you know, Oriols, Rays, the
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Twins that you know, we're kind I did a reshuffling
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: your former club, and that was the evaluation there, seemingly
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: as well the mid Ones. So to me, it seems
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: like if you're willing to be patient and bet on
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: the up side, there's pretty good value right now in
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Major League Baseball.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Well, Ryan, I think he nailed it. I think there's
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: some instability in baseball right now, but that also presents
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: some opportunity. You know, as you mentioned, I think one
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: of Rob Banford, the commissioner of Major League Baseball, one
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: of his pending legacies is going to be hinged upon
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: his ability to nail one of these national television deals
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: commensurate with maybe what the NBA has done. I don't
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: think anyone's going to reach the NFL, but if they
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: could get something close to what the NBA has done,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: then that's a huge boon for ownership. But just as
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: a point of reference, right now, the disparity in Major
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: League Baseball and television deals is just all over the map.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: You know, where the NBA the NFL are sharing revenues, there,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: there offers a high floor for every owner in terms
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: of revenue streams. In Major League Baseball, you know, as
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: a point of reference, the Dodgers are pulling in over
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: three hundred million dollars in their TV deal, the Yankees
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: are pulling in over one hundred and fifty million, and
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: then a team like the Minnesota Twins is scraping together
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: to hope to get to fifteen to twenty million in
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: a year. And I think until that there's stability there,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of challenges and volatility
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: to value these franchises effectively. And so with that, as
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: you reference Ryan, I think comes a real opportunity. The
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: collective bargaining agreement currently runs through twenty twenty six. It
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: seems as if Major League Baseball and the Union are
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: not making a ton of progress there. It seems as
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: if there's an opportunity that there may be a lockout,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: and if you come out on the other side of
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: the lockout and there is more leveling of the playing
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: field from a revenue standpoint, you may buy into one
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: of these franchises now and find it just catapult forward
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: in value. And so I think that's a real factor
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: for Major League Baseball. So if you're an opportunistic person,
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: and you know, I think a lot of the private
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: equity firms are and those our entities that are starting
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: to show up more in baseball than they once did.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: You know, baseball's historically than owned businesses, singular wealth. Now
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: there's much more groups involved, there's some private equity involved.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: They are willing to prospect on some of these things.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: One other thing that I ran I was hoping you
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: could shed a little light on, is I think the
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: NBA has done such a wonderful job or it seems
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: of appealing to a younger demographic. Major League Baseball still
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: buy and large is more for you know, the grandfather
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: taking his son to the game. I'm not sure if
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: they've nailed taking the grandson with them. And then similarly,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: the excellent job that the NBA has done in globalization
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: of their sport. You know, I think baseball is still
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: buy and large national with some regional appeal, whereas the
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: NBA has become international with some national appeal. And I
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: don't know if you want to speak to those two
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: points is another reason why I think the NBA franchises
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: are garnering more in franchise value.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: I think you're extremely accurate there that and your assessment.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, historically Major League Baseball has had a
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: bit of a difficult time with the metrics the advertisers
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: and sponsors want, you want kind of younger, say eighteen
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: to fifty something, with disposable income diverse. The NFL is
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: off the charts in that metric anytime I've looked at
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: it or read about it, and then the NBA slots
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: in second right behind. As you mentioned, Major League Baseball
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: is I think core audience is a little bit older,
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: probably a little more male dominated, a little less diverse,
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: and probably a little more American or North American based
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: versus the geographical diversity of the NBA. And I think
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: that's one of the things that really has helped the league,
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: and really that I think as we look at next
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: levers of growth or areas of growth for the NBA,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: and something the league is very cognizant about and very
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: strategic about doing is trying to tap into the European market.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: They're talking about the NBA Europe now where it would
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: be a separate league, but basically to some extent a
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: competitor with the EuroLeague, which is the top professional basketball
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: league outside of the NBA. So they kind of have
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: teams here. And now is it a precursor to expansion
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: to Europe? You know, I think that's a bridge too
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: far at this point. But is it kind of a
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: trial balloon to say, hey, could we play in Europe
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: at some point? Could you have a European Division, you know,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: with five or six teams and London, Paris, Barcelona, ath
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: and you know your name your major European city. Is
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: that possible? But rather than trying to do that, since
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: the NBA is in such a good place, in a
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: lucrative place, as reflected in the TV contract, as reflected
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: in the franchise evaluations, this is kind of a trial
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: balloon to see how it goes in Europe. And another
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: thing the NBA is doing strategically that which I think
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: is pretty smart, is especially on the weekends, you'll see
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: some early Sunday afternoon games with teams that have European stars.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: So if you see the San Antonio Spurs with Victor Wembayama,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: the LA Lakers with Luka Donsich, the Bucks you know
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: obviously with Giannis and others, you know, other top European players.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Obviously the Nuggets with Nicoleiokic. If you see them, that
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: game start early on a Sunday afternoon or a weekend
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: in general, but I think they more skew towards Sundays.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: The reason for that is so they can be on
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: primetime in Europe and try to get the American audience
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: who's watching during the day on Sunday, and the European
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: audience who's watching at night. That's strategic and intentional from
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: the NBA putting those teams with European stars in those
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: early time flots.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Ryan, the last thing I'll say is something I
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: think you said a few episodes ago, which was the
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: NBA has done a wonderful job in creating parody. Of
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: the last seven champions have all been distinct like we
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: haven't had a dynasty. What stands out to me even
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: more than that is you have to go back thirty
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: years for a small market team to win the World Series,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: and that was the Florida Marlins when they upended the
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: New York Yankees. Whereas three of the last ten NBA champions,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: you would say would be small markets in Milwaukee, Cleveland,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: and then Oklahoma City this last year. That I think
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: reality of parody, the leveling of the revenues on the
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: top end, the reality of parody in terms of competition,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I think makes these franchises that much more appealing to
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: a prospective owner. So I'd be interested, great question from RF.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: I'd be interested to visit this again in two years
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: when we come out of the other side of collective
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: bargaining in Major League Baseball, to see how much of
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: some of these challenges that baseball currently faces are resolved.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Does that help close the gap between the NBA and
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: then Major League Baseball franchise valuations stay tuned through the break.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: On the other side, we're going to be joined by
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Tom Telesco, twenty seven year veteran of the NFL on
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Rosters to Rings.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings everyone, Ryan McDonough, joined
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: as always by Fad Levine, and we have a special
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: guest today that is Tom Telesco, longtime NFL executive. Tom
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: began his NFL career with the Buffalo Bills, where he
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: was an intern from nineteen ninety one to nineteen ninety four.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: From there, he went on to the Carolina Panthers, where
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: he was scouting assistant as well as an area scout.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Really made his name with the Indianapolis Colts. He was
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: a scout in nineteen ninety eight. In two thousand and four,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: he was promoted to scouting director. In that time period
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: that was the cul Heyday. They had a great run.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: The franchise drafted some Hall of famers Edgar and James, Reggie, Wayne,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: and Dwight Freeney during his time with the organization. Also
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: obviously had the legend Peyton Manning at quarterback. In twenty twelve, Tom,
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: who by then was the Colt's vice president of football Operations,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: became the youngest GM and the illustrious history of the
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: Chargers franchise.
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: He was general manager.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: With the Chargers for over a decade, with the Bolts
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: making the playoffs three times during that stretch, while also
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: selecting stud quarterback Justin Herbert in the twenty twenty draft.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: After his Charger's tenure ended, Tom was quickly hired by
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: the Las Vegas Raiders as a general manager and spent
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four season in Las Vegas. Where he
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: drafted stud tight end brock Bauers with the franchise's first
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: round pick.
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Tom. Welcome to Rosters, to rings.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me on. This is great.
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: It's fun when you're an XGM that we have all
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: the answers. Now we're the experts, right.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: This is certain time.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: No one can shut us off here.
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: I got plenty of time on my hands, but this
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: is this is really cool.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: I thought I've reached out, you.
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: Know, maybe a month ago and told me about your
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: your podcast and kind of pull it up listen to.
• 14:09
  Speaker 5: I just think it's a great concept to listen to
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: gms from other sports just to get their different viewpoints.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: And through my career, I spent a lot of time
• 14:18
  Speaker 5: actually with Baseball GM, some NHL gms, just trying to
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: get learn some new things, get some advice, get some
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: different techniques, and because obviously you can't call gms in
• 14:28
  Speaker 5: your own industry and get insider information, so I always
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: reached out to as many gms as I could. Plus,
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: I always seem like other gms know what we go through.
• 14:36
  Speaker 5: But you know, obviously the general public doesn't always understand
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: you need like a shoulder to cry on sometimes. But
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: I think this is pretty cool to kind of get
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: together and just talk about our different industries and you know,
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: share some stories.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: So thanks for having me on and Tom.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Fundamentally, like I think we're all fans, right, you know,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: so like even though you worked in football, I did
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: in baseball, and Ryan and basketball, we're all die hard fans.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: And you know, I do think the NFL is such
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: a popular sport. Ryan and I would love to have
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: an expert on to bounce some ideas off of. We
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: probably have some fantasy trades we have to consider later
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: in this. But I think you also just like shed
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: light indirectly on something that is part of the challenge
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: of being a GM, which is once you ascend to
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: the seat, there there isn't that inner circle of people
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: that you can really lean into. You know, it's tough
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: to go, you know, talk to your direct reports and say, hey, listen,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: I have no idea how to handle this situation. You know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: we all I think, developed relationships with some of our
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: compatriots gms in our league, but there's a level at
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: which you don't want to overshare with them. There is
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: a competitive element to this, and so when you find
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: your community, when you're in these roles. I think the
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: faster you could do it, the better, because none of
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: us has all the answers. We've got to lean into people,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: and there isn't really a logical group there to start with.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: You have to forge your group, you know. I certainly
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: reached out to people in local markets I worked in,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: but it's not only to find best practices, but it's
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: just you know, sounding boards and to keep you a
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: little bit because otherwise you're left doing this all by yourself.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:03
  Speaker 5: When I was with the Colts, Bill Pollyn, who was
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: a GM, he was good friends with Jim Hendry, who
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: was the GM of the Cubs at the time. So
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: we spent a lot of time with the Cubs, myself
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: and Bill Sun Chris. We went out to spring training
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: with the Cubs just to look at their database, how
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: they kept track of their prospects, how they ran their
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: scutting department. Learn a ton from from Jim. And then
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: when I got the Chargers job, I want to see
• 16:23
  Speaker 5: like this first. A second day, Josh Burns reaches out
• 16:26
  Speaker 5: to me, and Josh was the GM of the Padres,
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: say hey, if you need anything, let me know. So
• 16:30
  Speaker 5: I started a relationship with him, which was great. And
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: then I started a relationship with Billy Eppler when he's
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: with the California Angels, you know, right down the street.
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: And there's just a lot of things, like you said,
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: like you need some outside council, some outside boye, some
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: different thoughts outside the box. I used a lot of
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: Brian Burke, who's a GM in the NHL. He was
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: awesome as far as not only just roster building, but
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: just running an organization. So just trying to get some
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: different opinions and thoughts because you can't do this on
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: your own obviously.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: I mean I know I can't.
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: I need all the help I can get, so to
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: balance those things out, those people with tremendous.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Tom It just goes to show how small a world
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: we all live in. Josh and I went to college together,
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: played baseball together at Haverford College. He was the one
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: who got me my first job in baseball, and I
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: was in Billy Eppler's wedding he worked together in Colorado
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: with Josh Burns. It's an amazing small world we all
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: live in. But when you find those people who you
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: can rely on and who you can lean into, you
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: hold on to them with dear life, because these jobs
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: are tough. But Tom, just to go into the wayback
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: machine a little bit, you went to John Carroll University,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: and can you share with the listeners a little bit
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: of the legacy of this university. Why has it become
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: such a pipeline of NFL talent both on the field
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: but front office executives, coaching staff. Maybe you could share
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: a few of those people with the listeners. And was
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: that part of your reason for going there?
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: No, I mean, at the time, the only speline from
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: John Carroll to the NFL was Don Shula and that
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: was obviously back in the fifties, and actually they play
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: in Don Shula Stadium, but that was the only NFL
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: connection at the time.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've gotten that question a lot.
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: I mean, it's hard to imagine a Division III school
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: in Cleveland, Ohio, four thousand students would have this many
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: people in the NFL. And the thing is, we all
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: kind of came in different ways and I wouldn't even
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: be able to name them all. But like one of
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: my teammates with Greg Roman, who's now the offensive coordinator
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: with the Chargers, he's been the NFL for a long time,
• 18:27
  Speaker 5: as a coordinator and quarterback coach. His first job was
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: with the Carolina Panthers at the same time I was there,
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: but he came in as a strength coach through a
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: totally different, kind of totally different door. Josh McDaniel's longtime
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: NFL head coach and coordinator. He was a GA for
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: Nick Saban at Michigan State and got our recommendation to
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: Bill Belichick and ended up in New England.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: And there's just been a lot.
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: Of connections, I guess to the NFL, But it wasn't
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: like someone from John Carroll got in the NFL and
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: to start to hire other John Carroll alumni. It's just
• 18:57
  Speaker 5: kind of taken off. And it's kind of hard to
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: explain because look, if you play Division III football, like
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: you're there because you love it, you love to play
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: or not on a full scholarship.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: But you can say that about.
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: Every Division III school, like you got to have passion
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: and work ethic to you know, to play at that level.
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: But I will say at John Carroll, like they ran
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: a really well run program, Like it's a top twenty
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: five program.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: We finished fifth in the nation my senior year.
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: They put a lot of resources into it and it
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: was a good school, and I think once a couple
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: of kids got in the NFL, I think other kids realized,
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: you know, hey, I'm not going to play in the NFL,
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: but if I want to work in the NFL, maybe
• 19:31
  Speaker 5: I should look at John Carroll as a school that
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: can help me get there with networking. And honestly, when
• 19:37
  Speaker 5: I got there, I had no thoughts of ever working
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: in the NFL.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: Didn't even know it was possible. I was going.
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: I was a business major playing football there and I
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: just got a call just because Bill poyn, who was
• 19:49
  Speaker 5: a gam with the Bills, his sons. They weren't my age,
• 19:52
  Speaker 5: one was older, when was younger, but they went to
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: the same high school as I did, in the same college,
• 19:56
  Speaker 5: and they needed some college players to help in training
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: camp for the summer. So one of the two, I'm
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: not even sure which one, said hey, once you asked Tom,
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: maybe he'll do it.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: That was.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: It wasn't like I applied.
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: It wasn't like we didn't even know these jobs existed.
• 20:09
  Speaker 5: And I did that for three summers, not even thinking
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: that would lead to a real job. I was more
• 20:14
  Speaker 5: focused on, you know, whatever job was I get after college,
• 20:17
  Speaker 5: probably in the business world. And Bill goes to the
• 20:20
  Speaker 5: Carolina Panthers. It's an expansion team in nineteen ninety five
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: and they have to start a whole he has to
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: hire a whole staff from scratch. I get another call,
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: Hey do when I come down to help out for
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: the summer? Get us going, And I'm like, yeah, I'll
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: do that. Like I hadn't had a I have a
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: job yet, I just graduated, So I go down to
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: Charlotte kind of like liked being on a team again.
• 20:39
  Speaker 5: And honestly, no one told me to go home after
• 20:41
  Speaker 5: this training camp ended. So I just kept coming into
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: work every day like I was a full time employee
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: even though I wasn't. And then before I knew it,
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: there was enough going on with an expansion team that
• 20:51
  Speaker 5: I just ended up working, end up in the scouting department,
• 20:53
  Speaker 5: and then kind of the rest is history.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I love stories like that. There was a guy I
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: won't say his name. He's actually a current assistant coach
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: in the NBA. He's a friend of mine, but we
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: lovingly called him the Trojan Horse because he just kept
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: showing up every day. It would be on the couch,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: you know, when you'd walk through the lobby and he's
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: actually older than I am, but he's like, hey, you know, Ryan,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: if you need anything. I was like, oh, no, thanks,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I'm good, I'm good. This is when I was with
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: the Celtics. And then sure enough you see him on
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: the court rebounding, and then it's like, wow, we have
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: an entry level player development. He's here anyways, and sure enough,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: you know he's been a long time successful NBA assistant coach.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: But I think it's amazing to a lot of folks,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: especially to some of our listeners. They think there's this
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: grandiose plan and strategy and there was this big kind
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: of unveiling or you know, gate that opened and you
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: walked in and it was this this thing that was
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: kind of laid out. Usually that's not the case. Usually
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: it kind of twists and turns. And so the fall
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: up question that I have off of that is what
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, seems like a really special time
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to me was your run in Indianapolis. I was, you know,
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: just out of college working for the Boston Celtics at
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: the same time. And the reason I bring that up
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: is because I think one of the best Rydevalries in
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the last couple of decades in all of sports was
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: the Colts versus the Patriots in that era, Tom Rady,
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Peyton Manning, you know hall of At, Bill Belichick, Polly
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: and you know Tony Dungee, et cetera. It was really
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: remarkable to the extent where it was a surprise if
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: one of those two teams, well maybe if both of
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: those teams were not in the conference championship, and if
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: one of them was not representing the AFC in the
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Super Bowl. So if you could take us back, you
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: know a little bit, what stands out to you about
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: that time, It seems like a pretty special time to
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: be a member of the Colts franchise.
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: It was, and when you talk about their rivalry, I mean,
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: it was real. There's no doubt. It was the two
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: best teams in the AFC at the time, the two
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: best quarterbacks, two highly successful head coaches who are polar
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: opposites on how they ran their football team, but both
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: highly successful on how they did it. And you know,
• 22:49
  Speaker 5: we're both just built a lot differently. The Patriots were
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: built for outdoors and the elements. They were big, physical,
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: but not necessarily the fastest team in the world. They
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: were on the slower side. But they were big, strong
• 23:01
  Speaker 5: and physical. And we were an indoor team played at
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: the RCAA Dome at the time, then moving to Lucasohol,
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: but the indoor stadium, and we were on the smaller
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: side our team. Our team size was like we used
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: to joke, like our defensive line or two defensive tackles,
• 23:15
  Speaker 5: we sometimes line up at two sixty five and two
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: seventy five. It's like, boy, there's high schools that play
• 23:20
  Speaker 5: bigger than that. That was not ideal, by the way,
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: but that's just how we ended up sometimes. But we
• 23:25
  Speaker 5: were fast, and we were athletic, and we were quick,
• 23:28
  Speaker 5: and that's kind of how we played. We had an
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: offense that could run, and our defense was extremely fast.
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: They were built to play with the lead in the
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: RCA Dome and rush the passer. So you know, we
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: were built different ways, but tremendous competitive rivalry and and
• 23:43
  Speaker 5: I'm sure you guys go through the same thing. When
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: you're building your team. You're always looking at your division,
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: how you match up in the division. In the NFL,
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: your first way into the playoffs is win your division.
• 23:53
  Speaker 5: So as we're building our team through free agency through
• 23:55
  Speaker 5: the draft, you know, you always talk about how a player,
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: if we bring them in, how we line up our division.
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: But with us, it was always like, hi's the line
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: up against New England. We used to always talk about that,
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: and I sensed, I don't know this, I sensed they
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: did the same thing. I know the year they drafted
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: a safety, Brandon Merriweather from Miami, we were convinced they
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: signed they drafted him in the first round to try
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: and slow down Dallas Clark and to head hunt in
• 24:19
  Speaker 5: the middle of the field against Marvin Harris and Reggie Wayne,
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: Austin Colley, you know, Brandon Stokely. So I don't know
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: if they did, but I know we we really tried
• 24:29
  Speaker 5: to build because we knew if we don't get home
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: That's why homefield advantage was so important because there was
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: two different dynamics. You go play in New England and
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: it's ten degrees wet and a muddy field that I'm
• 24:38
  Speaker 5: sure they they probably watered down before the game to
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: slow us down. And an RCAA Dome had that old
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: astro turf and it was fast, really fast, and you know,
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: we're just built different ways.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: So home field.
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: Getting home field was so important. But that that was
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: a fun time and both teams won a lot of
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: a lot of games. You know, we won, uh we
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: went to two Super Bowls, won one. They won more
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: Super Bowls than we did. But that was a special
• 25:01
  Speaker 5: time to be a part of.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Tom, I heard a rumor.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this is public knowledge, but I
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: heard the Patriots may have also deflated some footballs to
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: slow you guys down. I don't know if anybody knows
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: that or from breaking news here on rosters to rings,
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: but that was, you know, something that got a little
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: a little bit of buzz in New England when I
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: was living there and working there at the time.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: That one was kind of ridiculous.
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: But no, there were always like you always have these
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: with the teams you compete with, about hey they're doing this,
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: Hey they're doing that. Hey they're breaking this rule, they're
• 25:28
  Speaker 5: breaking that rule. You know, it's that competitive fuel.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: We all have it.
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: There are some other stories I don't even want to
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: get into a signs stealing that we but anyways, it
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: was a great robbery and it was two really good
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: teams that were built differently but built well, playing against
• 25:45
  Speaker 5: each other every year, and like I said, it was
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: a special time to be a part of, and thankfully
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: I did realize at the time what we were in
• 25:51
  Speaker 5: that just wasn't common. You know, we had a ten
• 25:53
  Speaker 5: year run. We had the most wins in NFL history,
• 25:55
  Speaker 5: Like that doesn't happen very often, but yeah, that was
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: pretty special.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: When I worked for the Colorado Rockies, Peyton Manning came
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: to Atlanta to visit us and visit Todd Helton specifically,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: who was a friend of his from University of Tennessee,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: and he took ground balls at shortstop and he did
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: that double tap trying to go across the plate. You
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: go across the field, and all of our basemarts like
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I beat that out every time. What's that guy doing
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: out there? It's like, maybe he'll stick with football. I
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: don't know if he's got a chance out there. Yeah, Tom,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I know. One other bond that ties us all together
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: is that we constantly get asked by people who are
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: trying to get into our sports how do you do it?
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: And I always tell people, don't get too fixated on
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: the title, don't get fixated on the salary or even
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: the job responsibilities. Really focus on the people you're going
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: to get a chance to work with and will they
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: truly invest in your growth and development? And I just
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: wanted to ask you specifically. You mentioned him earlier. Bill
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Pollian was in your first two stops. How fortunate were
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: you to be aligned with Bill Pollian as you were
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: cutting your teeth getting to become an executive in the NFL.
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: No, I owe my whole NFL career to Bill and
• 27:02
  Speaker 5: his son, Chris. Bill was the president and GM. When
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: Bill moved to president, Chris took over his GM, but
• 27:08
  Speaker 5: you know they both worked together. Yeah, I owe my
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: whole career to those two guys. I mean, I learned
• 27:13
  Speaker 5: the x's and o's of football from my high school
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: coaches and college coaches. But as far as like working
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: in the NFL, building a team, evaluating a player, you know,
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: like you know, having a vision of the player, putting
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: on paper that other people can read and understand, and
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: then everything that goes into running a football team, you know,
• 27:32
  Speaker 5: more than freeency in the draft, but working with the coaches,
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: working with the video guys, the trainers, the support staff,
• 27:40
  Speaker 5: agents and salary cap and contracts and all that. I
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: learned all that from Bill, and that you hit on
• 27:45
  Speaker 5: it perfectly. As far as you know when you get
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: in the league, or you know, whatever your entry level
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: job is. I was always more concerned about whatever my
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: role was. I was doing the best of my ability,
• 27:56
  Speaker 5: and I didn't It was never focused on what the
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: promotion could be because you guys knowing pro sports, like
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: if you don't contribute to winning, they'll go find somebody else,
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: Like there are no favorites, like if you don't win,
• 28:07
  Speaker 5: you don't have a job. So we all rely on
• 28:10
  Speaker 5: each other. So as I moved up, and I was
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: lucky enough, there two things. One, we are a really
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: good team. We want a lot. My progression just happened organically.
• 28:20
  Speaker 5: And then you know, I was on the road scouting
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: when when I got brought in house, my office door
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: was within like six feet of Bill Pollion's door, and
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: Bill's Bill's door is always open, and his son Chris
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: is right next door. I learned a lot just by listening,
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: because you guys don't know if you guys know Bill,
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: but he's got a pretty big voice. So if he's
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: on the phone with an agent, well, actually, if he's
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: not a FOURD with an agent, the whole building here is
• 28:42
  Speaker 5: it anyways, But I would learn so much just by
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: being around, and Bill would have this, you know'd I'd
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: sit in his office while he's on the phone with
• 28:50
  Speaker 5: the League office. I'd sit in his office while he's
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: on the phone with an agent doing a contract. I'd
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: sit in his office if he's talking with Tony Dungee
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: or Jim Moore or Jim Caldwell about a transaction. You know,
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: I got a Hall of Fame GM that I'm just
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: learning from. I mean, you talk about lucky just by location,
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: it was.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: It was pretty amazing. Bill was good with that.
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: He was really good at teaching young people, myself and Chris,
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: So yeah, I learned so much from him that. Honestly,
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: when I first took the charger job, and whenever you
• 29:18
  Speaker 5: get your first GM job, as you guys know, like
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: sometimes a little overwhelming the things that come across your desk,
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: and there are a lot of things I would just
• 29:25
  Speaker 5: kind of remember inherently of how Bill handled things and
• 29:28
  Speaker 5: how did it work, did it not work?
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: How would I handle it? So I was extremely lucky
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: in that fashion.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Bill Pollian's a legend in an NFL front office circles.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: He and my father, Will McDonough were pretty close. In fact,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I remember going to a game at Boston College on
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: a Thursday night, and Bill said he'd liked going a
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Thursday night games because then you could go to another
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: game on Saturday when ESPN had, you know, the eight
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: o'clock kickoff, but BC was playing somebody and sat up
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: in a suite with Bill. I think it's probably two
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: thousand and two, somewhere in that range when he was
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: with you.
• 29:55
  Speaker 5: They probably went out after that. I bet too, too, irishmen,
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: there's no doubt.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: Probably so, probably so, Tom. One of the questions I
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: have for you is I feel like you and I
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: have a relatively similar pass in terms of the origins
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: and starting in the NBA a low level scouting kind
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: of working our way up the scouting trail and going
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: on to become general managers.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: The question I have for.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: You is, you know most of the pods so far
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: with that, and I has been NBA in Major League
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: Baseball focus, how common is that path in the NFL
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: do a lot of your your peers, you know, you
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: guys you've didn't done the job with and against? Do
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: they follow a similar path? And what are some of
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: the different ways now in twenty twenty five that people
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: become g and where did they start if they go
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: on to later become a general manager.
• 30:40
  Speaker 5: You know, it's funny like in the NFL, i'd say,
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: and I could do the math, but you know, seventy
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: seventy five percent of gms are probably a scout background,
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: which is a lot. But and then one of the
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: things I learned from Bill and I totally one hundred
• 30:53
  Speaker 5: percent believe this. The GM job, to me is not
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: a scouting job. It's not a director player personal job.
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: It's a leadership and decision making job. So to me,
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: you could have a background whether it's you know, football operations,
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: whether it's analytics, whether it's cap and contracts, anything where
• 31:08
  Speaker 5: you have to take in information to make decisions. But
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: in the NFL that the draft is such a focus,
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: and you know, if you come up that scouting slbum
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: My side was draft was college and pro scouting, But
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: it tends to get a lot of focus. And yeah,
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: a lot of guys that I came up with, a
• 31:26
  Speaker 5: lot of us started as interns with different teams. I
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: think you kind of rise up the ladder and then
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: you end up in that GM role. But I think
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: moving forward more so than ever, I think we'll see,
• 31:37
  Speaker 5: you know, more and more people with less a scouting
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: background and maybe more like I just said, analytics, cap
• 31:43
  Speaker 5: and contracts football operation. I think it was probably maybe
• 31:46
  Speaker 5: two out of football ops, a couple out of cap contracts.
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: I think we'll see females and NFL GM jobs at
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: some point. Like any it's a decision making job and
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: you have to lead people and you've taken a lot
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: of information. And there was times where I felt like
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: it was a benefit I had a scouting background. There
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: are times I felt like it was maybe a detriment
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: because if I have a big staff of people and
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: we're talking about a player and they see it all
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: one way and I see it differently, and I'm the
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: only one who sees it differently, and I'm the one
• 32:11
  Speaker 5: has to make the decision. It's like, you know, do
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: I go with them? And then if it doesn't go right,
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: you know I kicked myself or hey, look it's you know,
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: it's on your butt in the end. But that's kind
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: of leading the group and trying to make good decisions
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: with the people you have. So but yeah, it's predominantly
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: a scouting background. I think it will start to it's
• 32:31
  Speaker 5: going to start to change more so. Actually, when I
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: looked at it, I thought i'd be a little more
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: than it was, but it's still about seventy seventy five
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: percent that came up, you know, through some sort of
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: scouting side.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: You know, and Ryan, I'd love to hear your perspective
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: on the NBA having come up through the scouting side
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: yourself as well. I would say in Major League Baseball
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: when when I started, and I think we all started,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: probably roughly around the same time, there was a real
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: emphasis on having a scouting background as well. And I think,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: in hindsight maybe it was for two primary reasons. One
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: was you just instantly had more credibility with uniformed people,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: the coaching staff and the players. If you kind of
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: got into the trenches, you went out and watched a
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: lot of high school baseball games of you know, college
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: baseball games, and even international baseball games. I think you
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: just had instant credibility. Also, I think it taught us
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: a skill, which was that did pervade being a general manager,
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: and you talked about the executive decision making and leadership,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: but I felt like our jobs were also talent evaluation.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: It just came into a little bit of a different format,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Like I had to be able to do scouting reports
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: on agents and other front office executives, so that when
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: I was negotiating deals, I kind of understood how to
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: be most efficient and productive with those people. So everything
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: we did kind of had a scouting component to it.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I think in baseball, obviously people are more in line
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: with understanding like, oh, they're three starting pitchers there, how
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: do you rank them? One, two, three? But I also
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: was able to do that with other chief negotiators that
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I had to work with. And then I think there
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: was a transformation in baseball that you're seeing in football now.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: I think it already happened in baseball, which was there
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: was a huge pendulum swing to now it is more
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: analytics based. You know, the people who have scouting backgrounds
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: are far fewer between, you know, in Major League Baseball
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: right now. When I started, you reference Jim Hendry earlier,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: he was kind of the prototypical GM, and now all
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's much more of an academic background,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: much less of a clinical baseball background, much less of
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: a scouting background, much more of an analytics background. But Ryan,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: how does that compare to the NBA in Europe bringing
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: as a scout in the NBA.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so interesting to hear the different stories across
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: leagues because, like anything else, I feel like it does
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: go in waves and it kind of ebbs and flows.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: When I first started in the NBA two thousand and
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: two three season, there were a lot of former players,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: you know, there was some school that thought, well, how
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: can you garner respect in the locker room if you
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: didn't play, you know, how can you go and address
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: the coach and the players if you didn't play the
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: game at the highest level, you know, at the NBA
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: level yourself. Fortunately for me and other some of my
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: peers have gone on to do great things Sam Presty, Messi, Usierie,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Tim Connolly, Rob Hennigan. Then it kind of became people
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: looking for, you know, the young up and comer, you know,
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: the young up and comer, and Tom nailed it earlier.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: Like his run in Indianapolis. We had a somewhat similar
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: run with the Celtics where we were pretty good for
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: a long time. We had you know, great players and
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Rajon Rondo, et cetera.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: And like any other industry. If the group does well,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: you know, rising tide lifts all ships. So then they say, okay,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: we're not gonna be able to hire Danny Angels GM
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: doctor as head coach.
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: Who are their next guys?
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: So that I think probably benefited me.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: And know I imagine to some extent you Tom, you know,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: working for the great Billpollon and the success you had there.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: So yeah, now with that, I'd say, you know, certainly,
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: you guys major League Baseball were the pioneers from an
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: analytical perspective. You were way ahead in terms of it.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously Moneyball brought up more into the mainstream,
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: but even you know what when I was coming up
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: the ranks in the Celtics front office, what the Red
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: Sox front office led by theo Epstein those guys were
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: doing over twenty years ago now was pretty revolutionary. And
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: then you know, Daryl Morey to some extent and others
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: you know, brought it to the NBA, to the analytical
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: three point revolution. So I think, like Tom said, you'll
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: see a lot more diversity going forward. And I say diversity,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: I don't necessarily mean racial diversity, but people from all
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: different backgrounds like you said, maybe even some women, guys
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: who played the game at a high level, guys who
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: didn't play the game beyond elementary school. I think all
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: of that is going to come in to play. And
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: one of the things that I don't think is going
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: anywhere from an NBA perspective, And i'd love to get
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: both of your takes on this year years in particular
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Tom from the NFL is I thought, I think one
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: of the things that's important to keep in mind is
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: think of how the owners who are now buying into
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: these teams made their money. A lot of it was
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: analytical driven, you know, whether that's the stock market or something,
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: you know, some kind of financial aspect of it, some
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: kind of technology aspect of it. How do they think, Well,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: they skew more toward data in the numbers than you know,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: trust me, my gut. I've been doing this a long time,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: so Tom, I'd love to get your take on that.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: But that's been a recent shift in the NBA, and frankly,
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: this new wave of owners who, as we discussed in
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: the first segment, that they're paying three, four or five
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: even up to ten billion for the Lakers. They want input,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: they want to be involved from an NBA level, the
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: days of hey, you guys, just do whatever you want
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: to do and I'll just sign the checks. And you
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: know those are over. But Tom, i'd love to get
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: your perspective on all that.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're on your side, You're probably right.
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: And when you spend you know, five six, seven, eight
• 37:26
  Speaker 5: billion dollars in a team, you should have some saying
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: what goes on? But you're right, it's it's you know,
• 37:31
  Speaker 5: most of them made their money using data to make decisions,
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: and they understand that part of it. They understand the
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: money part of it. They may not understand the ex's
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: knows the football part of it. But part of the
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: GM's job is to educate. So but yeah, I can
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: definitely see that with that new generation of owners.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: And frankly, it should be that way.
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: I mean, you shouldn't be in a meeting and you know,
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: why do you like it? Why do you want to
• 37:55
  Speaker 5: give this player one hundred billion dollars as a free agent? Well,
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: I think he's uh because I like him, because I
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: think he's a really good player.
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: I think he can help us.
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: I think he's strong, and he's like you need a
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: little more than that, and he's a you know, draw
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: all the way down not only to this production, but
• 38:09
  Speaker 5: all the way to the durability and the character and
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: all that. So, but yeah, you need to be able
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: to give reasons why, Hey, this is why we're making
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: this trade, this is why we're making this signing, this
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: is why we're releasing this player. Because with all those
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: with every trend that actually make, there's always a money
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: component to it, not only cap wise, but cash. I mean,
• 38:27
  Speaker 5: every team works on a cash budget. Not I know
• 38:30
  Speaker 5: that these teams make a lot of money, but it's
• 38:32
  Speaker 5: not like unlimited cash budgets.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: For these teams. So and you have to work with that.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: And that's different on team the team.
• 38:39
  Speaker 5: But I think it's always been the GM's job, no
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: matter what the owner's background, is to educate the owner
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: on the reason why, this is why I would like
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: to do this, this is why we're doing this. And
• 38:49
  Speaker 5: with some owners, it's getting some feedback what they think.
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: I mean the owners, I mean Jim Mersey, you know,
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: grew up in the NFL. He knew football really well.
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: Dean Spanels essentially grew up in the NFL, been you know,
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: he was a great resource with different things that happened in.
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: The league office. And then Mark Davis.
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: You know, his whole life was the NFL, so it
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: was always, you know, it was important.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: To get some feedback from those guys.
• 39:11
  Speaker 5: And I was lucky with those three owners is you know,
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: they would give their opinion to give some feedback, but
• 39:16
  Speaker 5: they always said, but you do what you want to do,
• 39:18
  Speaker 5: but here's the information. So I don't know if every
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: team has that, but I've been I was lucky in
• 39:22
  Speaker 5: that regard. So so you get the input from your ownership.
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: But yeah, you got to show the reasons why. And
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: it can't be just because it can't just be a
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: subjective hey, because I like this player and those days
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: are long long gone.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: Tom. I think you've also shed light on two of
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: the additional challenges as GM from an executive decision making standpoint.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: You referenced earlier the notion that you have maybe some
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: of your trusted advisors who are on one side of
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: an argument and you're on the other, and how do
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: you handle that situation? And you know, I think the
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: best gms I've worked with and four John Daniels comes
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: to mind. I thought he was just exceptional at this.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: He never kept a scoreboard, he never said came back
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: to you later and said, hey, you led me down
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: the wrong path. But what he also did is he said, hey, listen,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: if I ask your opinion, you know, give it. But
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: understand I'm asking five to six other people their opinion too,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: So don't booboo lip it if I go in a
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: different direction. But you know, I think that is part
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: of the art form of these decisions we make, which is,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, inherently, Okay, that's my left hand
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: person over there, or that's my right hand person. I've
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: kind of gone against them the last three or four times.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: We're compromising our decision making on behalf of the organization
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: when we then say we have to make this decision
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: from a popularity standpoint rather than from what we think
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: is the best information that we have. And then the
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: second thing I think you shed light on was the
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: notion of the engagement with the ownership and part of
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: what we have to also give them in addition to
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: the why is the risk analysis. And you know, in baseball,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I'll just use my example is you know, we sit
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: down with players and say, hey, this guy throws sliders
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: in two counts sixty eight percent of the time. The
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: guy then gets busted in with a fastball, strikes out
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: comes in what the hell you told me you throw
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: a slider one hundred percent of time? It's like, no,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: we actually said sixty eight. That means thirty two percent
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: of the time something entirely different happens. Well, it's same
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: when you talk to an owner, you know, like we do,
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: we're kind of honor bound to give them a risk analysis.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, guys. I never did
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: anything where I said, hey, this will one hundred percent
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: work out, and so I do think sometimes owners like
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: players here, well, you told me this was definitely going
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: to work out. It's like no, I said it was
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: likely to work out, but there was also an outcome
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: other than that.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: Almost realistic to say that, Yeah, you're just being realistic.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Right right. And I think the other thing that owners
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: should be concerned about is when we manage the risks,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: such as we're trying to just keep our own jobs
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: rather than further the cause of the franchises. You know,
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: we could sit there and rationalize the way never taking
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: a risk because but but once we do that, I
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: think we no longer are useful to the franchises. For
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: which we work, we're supposed to take some risk along
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: the way.
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: One hundred percent agree with that. I would never, never
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: make a decision based on how it's going to affect me.
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: There's just no way I could do that. I don't
• 42:01
  Speaker 5: care what anybody would say. Every decision you make is
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: for the good of the organization and if the costs
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: of your job, hey, that's part the part of the business,
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: as part of professional sports. So I never had an
• 42:11
  Speaker 5: issue with that at all. But the one part I
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: loved our meetings because was we talked about like the
• 42:17
  Speaker 5: risk reward and trying to mitigate the risk. I used
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: to love being the meetings, whether it's with a small staff,
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: bigger staff, or with ownership, and just frame up the discussion. Okay,
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: this is what we're talking about. These are the pluses,
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: these are the minuses or the strengths and the weaknesses.
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: This is how we could hit hard, is how we
• 42:33
  Speaker 5: could really miss on it. But just frame it up.
• 42:35
  Speaker 5: We'll discuss that, we talk about it, and then when
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: we leave the room, whatever decision was made, we're all
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: one hundred percent behind and if it doesn't work, you
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: know we did the process. We'll kind of evaluate the
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: process after. But if if all you feel good about
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: the process, every decision you make isn't going to work.
• 42:51
  Speaker 5: I mean the draft, if you hit fifty percent of
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: the time, you're going to go to the Hall of Fame.
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: It means you're wrong half the time. So but I
• 42:58
  Speaker 5: was always big. I'm make sure everybody had the information
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: to give their opinions. Listen, everyone's opinions. Obviously some have
• 43:04
  Speaker 5: more weight than others. I mean, the head coach has
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: you know, more weight with his decision than you know
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: than an area of scout. But you know, like but
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: you also know as a GM what guys you really
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: depend on in certain areas. Some guys are better in
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: certain areas than others. Obviously, the owner has a big
• 43:18
  Speaker 5: say in what goes on. Taking the information, make the decision.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: If it doesn't work, then I'll get back to the
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: better box and I'll I'll swing again. I got that
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: was always the mentality that I had.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: That's great perspective, Tom. You know, knowing your staff strengths
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: and weaknesses I think is so important as well. You know,
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: in Boston and Phoenix, some guys are better from a
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: scouting perspective in terms of relationships.
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: Intel. You know, they know everybody. Then get anybody on
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: the phone.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: They'll know everything about a player off the field, as family,
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: his habits and all that. But in terms of you
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: know this guy better than that guy might not be
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: as good. And then there's some guys on the other hand,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: they aren't really you know that that they just like
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: going to games, maybe they love grinding film. They don't
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: know as much about the player, but hey, this guy's
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: more talented than that guy. Overtime, the rights and knowing
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: kind of you know your staff strengths and weaknesses, I
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: think is so important. And the question I have for
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: you guys, you know we've all been with multiple teams.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: We're all out of the league's our respective leagues at
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: the moment, but you know, likely to be back in someday.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: The question I have for you, and that I'm going
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: off script here little we haven't discussed this. One of
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: the challenges I see right now, and I think this
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: cuts across sports, is the higher you get up on
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: the totem poll, especially if you're a president, general manager,
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: the farther away from the field or court you get,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: so in the less time you have to evaluate players
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: and so I think as as media, you know, it
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: get gets more and more potent, and there's more and
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: more people to want information answers, and as your staffs expand,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: that's going to get harder and harder to manage. You know,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: how does Tom Telesco with that levine spend time evaluating players, which,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: let's be honest, that's ninety percent of the way the
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: public judges us in these jobs. But you're getting pulled
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: away from that because of the size of the organization,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: because of all the peripheral responsibilities. So I just wanted
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: to get your take on that, your two guys take
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: on that certainly something that's an issue in the NBA,
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: and some of my other peers and I would kind
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: of vent to each other. So I was at the
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: office fifteen hours today. I only watched ten minutes of film, right,
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: and you know, all this other stuff going on, but
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: when the stuff hits the fan, that's what you're going
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: to be judged on. The draft picks, the trades, the
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: free agent signings and all that. But in the reality
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: of it, if if people looked at our day to
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: day sometimes especially in certain organizations, I think they'd be
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: shocked how little time were allowed or allotted to spend
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: on player evaluation.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: No, that's a great point when I first when I
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: first was hired by the Chargers, And I think.
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: Maybe this eporate to you guys too.
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: You know, when you get hired by ownership, you feel
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: like they hired you for a reason and you feel like,
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: you know, I need to do everything. And I kind
• 45:44
  Speaker 5: of had that first mentality when I first got there,
• 45:46
  Speaker 5: is I got to have my hand in everything. And
• 45:47
  Speaker 5: then you realize really quick like you got to hire
• 45:50
  Speaker 5: a really good staff and kind of give them a
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: vision of what you want to do and just let
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: them work. And it took me a little bit of
• 45:55
  Speaker 5: time to figure that out, but I did because, like
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: you said, there would be days that I come in
• 46:00
  Speaker 5: early in the morning and I'm leaving at night and
• 46:02
  Speaker 5: I didn't watch one ounce of film because things come
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: up fires you have to put out. I mean, my
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: first day and the job with the Chargers, I was
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: learning about Bermuda grass and how it doesn't grow as
• 46:12
  Speaker 5: well in San Diego.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: I'm like, we're in San Diego.
• 46:15
  Speaker 5: How can our grass not be like pristine, like a
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: like a like a fairway. And I'm meeting with the
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: groundskeeper to talk about the grass, and like we got
• 46:23
  Speaker 5: to get this improved. I spent a couple of hours
• 46:25
  Speaker 5: the first day working on grass. You know, that wasn't
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: part of the GM handbook, you know, before I took
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: the job. Because so, yeah, you're you're dealing with a
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: lot of things in the organization because you're the leader
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: of the organization, Like you have a lot of discussions
• 46:38
  Speaker 5: with doctors and trainers. I feel like I know a
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: lot about orthopedic injuries, even though I haven't taken one
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: class of biology to know anything about it. But I
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: talked with doctors so often you have to make decisions
• 46:49
  Speaker 5: on players, with the player, with the agent, with the coach,
• 46:54
  Speaker 5: and the doctor about kind a player player not. So
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: I learned a lot there. So it has a lot
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: of non scouting none value, even though you usually got
• 47:01
  Speaker 5: the job because you're a quote unquote good evaluator. But yeah,
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: there's just a lot of aspects of the job. Estimate
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: maybe twenty five percent of my job was the draft
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: and seventy five percent was everything else.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: That's a total guess.
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: But you have to have really good people, like the
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: good scouts, Like you said, knowing the scouts that are
• 47:20
  Speaker 5: good information gatherers, the scouts that are good evaluators, and
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: a good coaching staff that can teach and develop players.
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: And if you the better you put together that whole process,
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: the better team you're going to be.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Ryan, I would echo everything Tom said. Now, I
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: think baseball is a little bit different than your two
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: sports because with the average high school kid doesn't get
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: to the big leagues for five to six seasons, the
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: average college kid at about three years, So there's less
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: instant gratification from the draft. So there's a little bit
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: less emphasis placed on our deliverable in terms of our
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: sense of worth to the franchise based upon what happens
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: in the draft. It's important, but it's just a little
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: bit further removed. But you know, I looked at the
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: job of g as far from the most pure baseball
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: job I ever had. I think that probably peaked out
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: when I was like a director of baseball operations or
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: something like that. You know, I was far enough below
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: the senior decision making that I wasn't drawn into the
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: marketing in business. And we're going to do our mission
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: and vision retreat this weekend, and you've got to be there.
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: I wasn't part of that, but you know, when I
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: got to be a GM, I almost equated the job
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: to being an emergency room doctor. I thought, if I
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: was doing my job well, I could take the next
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: thing off the board, not the easiest thing off the board.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: And sometimes that showed up in the form of negotiate
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: the next one hundred million dollar contract that we're offering
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: to Byron Buxton. But it also maybe go speak to
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: an eighth grade class a local school to try to,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: you know, energize the future fans of the team for
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: which I'm working. And sometimes it was, as I'm sure
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: you guys can attribute. You know, we had vast staffs.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: It was talking to a double a pitching coach whose
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: daughter was really struggling from a health standpoint and he
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: just needed somebody to talk to. And you realize you're
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: in these positions and you think like, well, this isn't
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: on the job description, this isn't at all what I
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: signed up for. But you realize you have good judgment
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: and feel and you're being put into a position where
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: you can impact people's lives and you take the win
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: for the day. But that doesn't you know, that's time
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: that you're not spending with your major league coaching staff
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: or watching video of future potential players that you may
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: draft down the line. I always felt, and I don't
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: know how you guys felt about this, but Tom touched
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: on it, like, you've got to be able to delegate.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: You've got to genuinely empower people, guide them, but give
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: them the resources to excel. Get in the boat with them,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: row towards a common goal, but challenge them beyond what
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: they ever dreamed, and then give them new responsibilities when
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: they choose show that they can really excel. And I
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: always thought I could really effectively mentor about seven ish people.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: I tried to do it where I was mentoring everybody,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: and I just was spread too thin and I don't
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: think I was delivering value. I settled on a number
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: of somewhere between seven to eight people that I thought
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: I could affect a mentor, and then I kind of
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: got to get out of the way and let them
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: do their jobs, because these jobs are so significant. I
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: don't know how you guys told about it, but I
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: always looked at Major League Baseball and the manager gives
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: a press conference before and after every game. He is
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: availing himself to the media more than the President of
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: the United States is. And it's like, but yet we're
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: also asking him to develop our coaches, to develop our players,
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: to bring together this vast performance staff, and it's like,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: no one individual can do these jobs. Once you kind
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: of embrace that and really delegate, I think is when
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: you have a chance to really find success in these roles.
• 50:35
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I can imagine with like you know, with football,
• 50:38
  Speaker 5: especially this time of year, there's ninety players. There's twenty
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: plus coaches on your scouting staff. I don't know, twenty
• 50:43
  Speaker 5: to thirty people, and then you have support staffs of
• 50:46
  Speaker 5: you know, trainers, video equipment. Baseball, you've got different levels
• 50:51
  Speaker 5: and coaches at every level and players at every level. Brian,
• 50:55
  Speaker 5: I hate to say basketball, you got twelve players and
• 50:57
  Speaker 5: what six seven coaches in your role in couple of scouts.
• 51:00
  Speaker 5: I know, I know that's not true, but but yeah,
• 51:03
  Speaker 5: a lot of the job is just managing people. That's
• 51:06
  Speaker 5: why people ask, you know, what does a general manager do?
• 51:10
  Speaker 5: I said, he generally manages a lot of people. That's
• 51:12
  Speaker 5: it in a nutshell. Now, you can't do it all yourself.
• 51:15
  Speaker 5: You have a really really good staff and that's part
• 51:18
  Speaker 5: of your job is a higher talent to people. But
• 51:20
  Speaker 5: it's just keeping a ship moving and just keeping moving
• 51:24
  Speaker 5: moving forward.
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: No question. Tom.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: As we joked in Boston, you know, the job is
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: other tasks as assigned in air quotes. So the other
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: task may could be just about anything. The other tasks
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: as assigns. And one of the the examples that I
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: use when I speak to two groups who want to
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: get into pro sports and all that is Eric Spolster,
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: the legendary head coach in the Miami Heat.
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: You know, widely regarded as one of, if not the
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: best head coach in the NBA today, won multiple championships
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: in Miami's going to the Hall of Fame and all that,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: but his nickname as a young coach was no problem.
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: And I love this story.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: It's a cool story because he started the video room,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: you know, probably similar to kind of how the three
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: of us started. And when they'd ask him to do anything,
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: it could be pick up dry cleaning, it could be hey,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: come back at eleven o'clock on Sunday night because this
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: guy wants to shoot and he needs a rebounder, you know,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: load the gatorade, cool or whatever. No, problem, you know,
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: and they said no problem. He said no problem enough
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: that he would get more and more responsibility because they
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: knew whatever he threw out him, they threw at him,
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: he would be able to handle it. So I use
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: that example because you know, it's for anybody who wants
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: to get into sports. The last thing any of the
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: three of us want to hear if we're managing a
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: team is well, I'm not going to do that. Well,
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: if you want to get it, yes you are. You're
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: going to do it. You're gonna do it with the
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: smile on your face because if not, somebody else is
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: going to do it.
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: Really well.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: Pro sports is hard.
• 52:40
  Speaker 5: It's hard to get into because the supply of people
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: who want to work in pro sports is huge and
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: the demand is very small, especially in the NFL because
• 52:48
  Speaker 5: there's really no minor leagues. I mean there's the UFL
• 52:50
  Speaker 5: right now, but there's a lot of there aren't a
• 52:52
  Speaker 5: lot of jobs. There are as many jobs as people
• 52:53
  Speaker 5: think with the NFL teams. So if you do get
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: your foot in the door, which is the hardest part,
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: then it's just you just got to work card you know, listen,
• 53:01
  Speaker 5: work hard, and usually in sports.
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: If you work hard. People notice that's just the way
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: that it is. That's what you're you know. You notice
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: players who work hard.
• 53:09
  Speaker 5: You notice employees who work hard and do what they're
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: supposed to do, and it can take on more than
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: maybe their job description says.
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: And that's that's the key.
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I think, I think our generations have changed a little bit.
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: I led with the work ethic. I tried to do
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: as best I could, you know, in terms of just
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: keep your head down and just do whatever is asked
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: of you, and then you find yourself in these amazing
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: learning opportunities. I will reflect upon a couple of years
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: ago somebody who is an intern for the team I
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: was working for, who came up to me and said,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: I don't feel like I should have to prove myself anymore.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: And I said, how often have you had to prove
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: yourself so far? And they said once. I did it once,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: and what I recommended actually was the right recommendation. I said,
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: I've been working in baseball for twenty four years. I
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: feel like I'm trying to prove myself every single day.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: But I think if you don't have that ethos, these
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: these jobs chew you up and spit you out because
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: there is somebody who is willing to go above and
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: beyond and to say no problem. And if you ever
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: start slipping into that sense of entitlement and self worth,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: I think it's really it's a slippery slope. Tom, I
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: wanted to just to shift topics for a second. We'd
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: be remiss your equivalent to spring training preseason right now
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: going on, I would love to hear your guys' perspectives
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: on what did you use preseason four, Like how much
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: of it was player development, how much of it was
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: competitive analysis setting up your team for success, and then
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: how do you manage playing time versus risk of injury
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: especially in the NFL.
• 54:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, age old problem. I mean, so really what we did,
• 54:34
  Speaker 5: like our OTAs, which are basically our spring practices, so
• 54:37
  Speaker 5: no pads, just shorts and T shirts sometimes helmet. That
• 54:42
  Speaker 5: to us was the big player development time. We really
• 54:45
  Speaker 5: work on your technique, a lot of strength and conditioning,
• 54:48
  Speaker 5: but then a lot of technique work on the field.
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: Less competitive, I mean, we're out there, it's full speed.
• 54:53
  Speaker 5: But to me, it was never about comparing this corner
• 54:56
  Speaker 5: to that corner and that type of environment. Coaches kind
• 54:58
  Speaker 5: of saw it differently, but really GMS personnel wise, to me,
• 55:02
  Speaker 5: that was a learning period. Then once you get the
• 55:04
  Speaker 5: training camps where that's where the competition is. That's where
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: guys are competing to make the fifty three active roster,
• 55:12
  Speaker 5: competing to make the practice squad, maybe competing for a role,
• 55:15
  Speaker 5: say they're already going to be on the fifty three,
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: but competing for a role, competing for a starting job.
• 55:19
  Speaker 5: So that's very competitive in training camp. And then you know,
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: trying to manage the risk reward on playing players in
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: the preseason, it's really difficult. A lot of it just
• 55:29
  Speaker 5: depends on the type of team that you have at
• 55:31
  Speaker 5: the time and how you want to handle it. It
• 55:34
  Speaker 5: seems like most gms don't want to play anybody in
• 55:36
  Speaker 5: the preseason because they know, you know, if a star
• 55:39
  Speaker 5: gets hurt, I just can't go to the star tree
• 55:40
  Speaker 5: and pull off another star left tackle and put them
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: in there. Coaches usually want to get their team ready
• 55:46
  Speaker 5: to play, But most of the coaches I work with,
• 55:48
  Speaker 5: we're always on the same page as far as get
• 55:51
  Speaker 5: our guys enough work, our starters enough work, which a
• 55:53
  Speaker 5: lot of it was done in the combined practices with
• 55:55
  Speaker 5: other teams.
• 55:56
  Speaker 3: Where you could.
• 55:57
  Speaker 5: Control the tempo a little bit, where it was a
• 56:00
  Speaker 5: higher intensity than a regular practice, but it wasn't live
• 56:03
  Speaker 5: to the ground. We could work on certain situations specifically
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: that may not even come up in a preseason game,
• 56:09
  Speaker 5: and we can go ones versus ones rather than a
• 56:11
  Speaker 5: preseason game. You may have your ones out there, but
• 56:12
  Speaker 5: the other team has there twos and threes and you know,
• 56:14
  Speaker 5: maybe not be a great look, so.
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: But you have to.
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: Then you're balancing player evaluation who makes a team with
• 56:23
  Speaker 5: getting your team ready to play opening day against wherever
• 56:25
  Speaker 5: you're playing, you know, getting your schemes on offense and
• 56:27
  Speaker 5: defense ready to go, and you know, preparing to win
• 56:30
  Speaker 5: that first game.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: So it's it's a constant battle.
• 56:32
  Speaker 5: And then just managing injuries and training camp is always
• 56:37
  Speaker 5: a huge part of the job because you get a
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: couple players who heard at one position and you want
• 56:41
  Speaker 5: to keep practicing at the same pace, which means you
• 56:43
  Speaker 5: got to bring somebody else in, which means somebody else
• 56:45
  Speaker 5: to be released. So that's just a constant, you know,
• 56:47
  Speaker 5: hamster wheel that you're on throughout of training camp.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: I remember.
• 56:52
  Speaker 5: Myself and Chris Pollian made a trip out to Spring
• 56:54
  Speaker 5: and training to meet with the Angels and Buddy Black,
• 56:57
  Speaker 5: because we were researching quarterbacks and you know, how many
• 57:02
  Speaker 5: throws do they need to get ramped in? How does
• 57:05
  Speaker 5: spring training work compare it to our preseason practices? And
• 57:10
  Speaker 5: Buddy Black went through the whole progression of pitchers going
• 57:13
  Speaker 5: to spring training, and then we told him that, well,
• 57:15
  Speaker 5: in the NFL we have an off season program.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: Then the quarterbacks take six weeks off.
• 57:19
  Speaker 5: Then the first day at training camp at throw one
• 57:21
  Speaker 5: hundred balls, and he couldn't believe it.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: That's just the way that it is.
• 57:24
  Speaker 5: I mean, obviously the throwing motion is completely different for
• 57:26
  Speaker 5: football and baseball, but still and not that quarterbacks take
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: six weeks off, but you know, we're high intensity day one,
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: probably a little bit too much. So I'm sure there's
• 57:37
  Speaker 5: a lot of differences. We learned so much from baseball,
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: not just analytics, but just how you know, even player
• 57:42
  Speaker 5: development and that sort of thing. So we use baseball
• 57:44
  Speaker 5: a lot, but yeah, training camp a probably little bit
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: different probably than spring training. A lot more practice, a
• 57:48
  Speaker 5: lot less games.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: One of the things that we started studying guys in
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: the NBA, especially as my tenure went on in Boston
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: and then Phoenix in particular, was are we doing too
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: much year round? And what I mean by that is,
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: you know, when we talked to our mentors, you mentioned
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Bill Pollian, you know, Danny Ainge, you know some of
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: the great executives we all work with. You know, I
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: have frank conversations privately that I don't think the three
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: of us would ever have publicly.
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: But is man this job? How did you guys do
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: these jobs? Back in the day?
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Jeff Hornseck who was our first head coach with the Suns,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: and basically they said, well, it was a different time,
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: a different era where once the season ended, especially as
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: a veteran player, you were pretty much off until training
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: camp the next year. You know, you had two three
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: months off and the executive said, you know, you'd have
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: the draft and then you'd have free agency, and summer
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: league wasn't really a thing. Maybe had a minor one
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: after that. You had a couple of months, you know,
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: in say July, August, maybe in September where there was
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: a quiet period. As you know now, none of these
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: three leagues want any kind of quiet period. They want
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: to be in the news cycle. Three hundred and sixty
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: five days a year, that is a stated goal. We've
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: seen that with the schedule unveilings, with the multi day
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: drafts that the NFL started, you know, and then the
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: NBA is copied in others, and if you look at
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: any of the three leagues, I think I think it's universal.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: There's something every month of the year. There's not a
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: month off. So I think that is so important. And
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: one of the other things not to shift yours too severely,
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: but but Tom touched on that, I think is really important,
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: especially to any folks who are listening or are rising
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: the ladder or want to come up the ladder in
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: one of these three sports. One of the things I
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: would have done more in himsight, Tom and you touched
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: on it is when I was with the Boston Celtics
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: as assistant GM in charge of worldwide scouting, I would
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: have tried to learn a lot more about the medical
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: piece with the team doctors, the orthopedic doctors, the trainers,
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: because that was primarily a scouting based role. I was
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: the Celtics' top talent evaluator, so I was all over
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: the world and obviously no a player would be injured,
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: but I could be in Greece or Serbia or Durham,
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: North Carolina, and they'd be dealing with that back at
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: the practice facility in Waltham, Massachusetts.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: So and so.
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Then when I got the GM job, and as you
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: hit the nail on the head, Tom, it's, oh Jesus,
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: this guy's potella is a little strained and there's a
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: little tendonitis. And I'm saying, well, what does that really mean?
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: I was that's a journalism major. Can you explain it
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: to me?
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: Like I'm showing MRIs and X rays? But it's it.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: But you know, from August until December, I spent more
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 5: time with our doctors than our college scouts, believe it
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: or not.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: And that's just the way that is.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 5: I mean, college scouts are sending in reports and I'm
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 5: reading them, but as far as I face to FaceTime,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm with the team doctor. Certainly, you know
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 5: a good amount of Monday and then then Wednesday, Thursday,
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 5: Friday at least ones at practice and you're always talking
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 5: with those guys. And we had a great staff in
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 5: Indy and a great staff with the chargers where they'd
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 5: set me down and show me the MRI, show me
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 5: the X ray, explain you know, just so I could
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 5: have some frame of reference to make a decision. I
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 5: never held them to Hey, you said four to six weeks,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 5: we're at week seven. What's going on. It's like that,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 5: you know, their doctors are making just like a scout,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 5: you know, giving opinion on a player, like you're not
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 5: going to be exactly right on every timeframe, but just
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 5: to give me the information. And yeah, those are things
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 5: that you don't learn when you're on the road as
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 5: a college scout. I was lucky as a pro scout
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 5: where I was in the office every day, and you know,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 5: I see the doctors come in and meet with Bill
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 5: and discuss it.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: But that's a huge part.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 5: Of the job, is managing the injuries portion of it,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 5: probably all three of our sports.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I always felt it was such
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: a challenge for the manager of the major league team,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: which was you know, when you have a player who
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: is sometimes hurt, like the one hundred percent version of
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: that player unequivocally as a starter for you. Maybe when
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: he's at ninety percent, he's still better than the alternative
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: at eighty percent. It starts becoming a little bit dicey.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: But you just don't know, like there's it's an inexact science.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: There is a point in which when we tell these
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: players we want to encourage them to maybe play through
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: some discomfort, not play through injury, but play through some discomfort.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: But then we also ask them to wave their hand
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: and say like, hey, listen, I'm at sixty two percent
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: and my backup is better than me at sixty two percent.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: It's a really tough thing to do, and so that
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: falls on the manager and the head trainer oftentimes to
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: really decipher those things. But you know, you see people
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: chasing that all the time. You know, I'm watching games
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: right now and a good friend of mine was asking
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: about how Kyle Tucker's doing. And Kyle Tucker is apparently
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: dealing with some injuries right now, a relative to a
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: finger injury, but they're trying to play them. And it's
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: like that age oal debate of like do you want
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: to keep playing them through the injury because you know
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: the alternative is not great and if he can heal fast,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: then you want him on the field. But then all
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're compromising his ability. And in baseball,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: if you put him on the il, he's down for
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: ten days. Maybe we can't afford the ten days. It's
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: all part of the Rubik's cube. And I never envied
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: the doctors because they felt like hockey goalies to me,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: while you were only noticed when they made mistakes, you
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: didn't give them as much credit when they unless they
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: were pitching shutouts for you. And it's really tough on
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: a medical side to pitch you shit.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, there's there's no good news or bad news. Just
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: give me the news and I'll decipher through. I never
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: held anything to a doctor, And I remember way back,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 5: Marv Levy used to say this that one hundred percent
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 5: of a backup is better than eighty or ninety percent
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 5: of a starter, which made a lot of sense when
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 5: I was younger, But when I was at GM in
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 5: that same situation, I'm like, I don't know. I know
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 5: this backup pretty well, and I know the starter pretty well.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 5: I don't know if he's better than ninety percent of
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 5: the starter, So you have to kind of make that
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 5: that decision. A lot of times we'd make that decision
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 5: on game day, which I never really enjoyed. We bring
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 5: a player out, work them out three hours before the game,
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 5: and make a determination. Then okay, where exactly are you.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: Those are never good Huh. Those are difficult conversation to
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 5: have to try and figure that out. But it's all
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 5: part of the part of the job of managing people,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 5: managing injuries, and you know, taking in information and make
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 5: a decision.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: To Tom, I think I could say for all of
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: us that we we did just want the medical staff
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: to give us the news. It's not good news, it's
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: bad news. But then we reserve the right to say
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: a lot of cusswords. Yeah, it wasn't directed, It wasn't
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: directed at the medical staff. That was just right. It
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: was just coincidental that we decided to say a lot
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: of cusswords in.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 5: The The worst part was always like, you know, after Sunday.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 5: On Sundays, after the game, I'd get a run down
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 5: from the doctors of the injuries. The worst parties you
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 5: come in Monday. They'd come in and like, hey, something
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 5: popped up overnight, and it's like, you got to be
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 5: kidding me, you know. It's just like, you know, because
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 5: at least you have some time to kind of plan out. Okay,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 5: this Monday, we got to get moving on these transactions.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 5: And then they hey something came up this morning, all right,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 5: here we go.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Well, I think I think we all preach the next
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: man up mentality, but we also know sometimes the next
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: man up isn't as equipped as the guy that're replacing,
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: and we also understand that. But we've got to put
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: a good face on Tom. Ryan and I just want
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: to say thank you so much for spending fifty minutes
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: with us today. It's been awesome to include the NFL
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: and as part of our conversation, we hope to do
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: more of this moving forward. Thanks to Tom Tellusco staying
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: with us through the break on Rosters to Rings.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings everyone. Ryan McDonough alongside
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: Thad Levine that that was a great segment with Tom
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: to LESCo. You know, obviously a longtime NFL executive, work
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: for a number of franchises. And the thing that you know,
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of, you know, hesitant to say right now
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: is we only got into about half or maybe a
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: third of what we had in the can for Tom.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: We had a lot of questions for him, we didn't
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: really get into his time with the Chargers or the Raiders.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: He drafted Rock Bauers, who looks like he's going to
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: be a great tight end, one of the best in
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: the NFL, and obviously San Diego we drafted Justin Herbert,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: so I'd love to have him back on at some
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: point to get into some of that. But I really
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: enjoyed our conversation with Tom te LESCo.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know what I've loved
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: about our relationship Rane is the fact that we're all
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: doing the same job and there's some commonalities. I think
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: there's some common themes to what we all do, but
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: they're all different enough, you know, so I don't feel
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: like we just sit here and say, hey, listen, I
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: agree with Tom, that's exactly how we did it, or
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: you agree with me or with Tom. There's a little
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: bit of a nuance to each sport. And I think
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: it also speaks to our intellectual curiosity when we were
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: in these roles. I was always trying to find best
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: practices from other sports. Well, we're still doing it on
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: the show. I think there's enough difference between how we
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: all did it that it hopefully is a compelling listen
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: for the people who are listen and dialing into roster strings.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: And I agree with you, like I think, at the
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: heart of it we're sports fans, but we're also NFL fans.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, we have a lot more questions for them.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: I can only imagine what the listeners would want to
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: pepper this guy with. So hopefully we can get it
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: back on second half of our questions and start diving
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: into more listeners questions that are specific to the NFL.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: And we're recording this show in mid to late August.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: We're in the heart of NFL preseason. We know what's coming.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: The NFL does a great job, you know, launching starting
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: on Thursday night right after Labor Day and then into it,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: so we'll certainly have an NFL heavy slant in addition
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: to our usual talk about the NBA in Major League Baseball.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: But we'll be talking a lot of NFL on this
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: show over the next few months as that league ramps up.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: That one of the things we did in the first
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: segment that we'd like to do again. I think this
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: is the first time, maybe ever, that we've had multiple
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: listener questions. We love the listener questions. We hope our
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: listeners keep sending in questions, you know via social media.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: We're on x or used to be Twitter, Instagram, So
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: please keep the questions coming. This question is from Matt
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: in Louisville, Kentucky, and he's asking about the Major League
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: Baseball trade deadline. You did three great shows while I
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: was off with John Daniels, a number of interesting guests,
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: Michael Young, Jeff Pass and Rick Hahn. But as you've
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: got some time fad to now kind of digest and reflect,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: how would you define the winners and losers? And I
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: know that can be difficult, We're only looking back a
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: few weeks, but how would you define the winners and
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: losers of the Major League Baseball trade deadline?
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I think it's a great question,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: and I think a lot of articles are written about this,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of journalists weigh in on this. So I'm
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: going to take a little bit of a different tech
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to echo an article written in Fangrass
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: by excellent journalist named Dan Sarborski, and he wrote from
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: the perspective of how much did your World Series chances
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: chance of winning the World Series were impacted by the
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: moves made at the trade deadline? Just a level set
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: for the listeners that the team that has the highest
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: World Series percentage chance to win is the Los Angeles
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: Dodge and it's fourteen point seven percent I believe, so
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: these numbers are never that big. Well, the San Diego
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: Padres actually improved their chances by three point four percent
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: by just what they did at the deadline, and keep
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: in mind they had just over thirty percent of their
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: games remaining. So my view of that is they effectively
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: did what the equivalent of a season long impact of
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: one of the ten best players in the major leagues.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: They were able to add that at the trade deadline.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: That is a significant, significant hull that they recorded at
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: the deadline. Hard not to put them in the winners categories.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Other teams that really improved their chance of winning the
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: World Series included teams like Seattle, Philadelphia, believe it or not,
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: the Yankees, and the Mets. The Yankees have faltered a
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: little bit sets in, but they did address their needs
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: exceptionally well at the trade deadline. I think that's worth noting.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: On the other side of the spectrum, and I guess
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: they shouldn't come as a shock, But the Dodgers are
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: on the other side. If the Padres improved as much
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: as they did, well, there has to be someone sitting
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: on the other side of that Seesaw, and I think
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: it was the Los Angeles Dodgers, not that they harmed them,
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: but they didn't help themselves as much as their chief
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: competitor did in San Diego. Interestingly, Milwaukee also was considered
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: a team that lost value in terms of their chance
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: of winning the World Series. All they've done in the
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: last thirty five games is go twenty nine to six.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: So sometimes maybe it's equally good to be lucky and
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: good at the same time. They're really leaning into that
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: right now. Detroit's an interesting team on this list of
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: teams that did not necessarily help them their World Series
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: odds because they didn't make a flurry of moves. But objectively,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: I would say probably most of their moves were not
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: really impact moves. They were more moves to help you
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: get to the playoffs and build out team depth than
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: it was to actually help you once you do get
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: to the playoffs. Well, I think Dan and his analysis
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: would attest to the same. The Chicago Cubs also show
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: up on this list, and I don't think that's because
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: they didn't help their team. They genuinely did. They added
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: some really quality, complimentary players. But what it's suggesting is
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: their biggest need was starting pitching. They didn't address that
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: at all, so as a result, the numbers don't support
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: that they helped their chance of winning the World Series.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: And I think those are some of the teams of
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: note on the winning and losing side that I think
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: are least worth considering as we look at the assessing
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: the winners and losers of this year's trading deadline.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah that I'm an Arizona Diamondbacks fan, but with them
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: in the National League, in the American League, I think
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: I'm rooting for the Detroit Tigers. And the main reason
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: is because your friend Aja Hinch came and joined us
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: here on rosters to rings. So I think it'll help
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: as a recruiting tool. If they go on to win
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: the World Series, we can go to other head coaches
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: and gms they see, you know, if you come on
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: with us, this will we'll take credit, and of course
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: if they don't win, we won't take any of the blame.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like you know, owners due to some
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: extent in pro sports that The next question I have
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: for you about the trade deadline that just passed in
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: Major League Baseball is how often the deals that were
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: made at or around the deadline impact the championship race
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: in that season. In the NBA, I think it's a
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: little bit overrated from a fan media perspective. You look
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: at the history of it, it's rare that a team
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: acquires a player and then goes on to you know,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: take off and go on to win the championship. Usually,
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: if a team acquires a player who contributes to a championship,
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: it's either the previous offseason or multiple seasons ago to
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: build that camaraderie. In chemistry, I imagine baseball might be
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: a little different, you know, given the individual aspect of
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: it from you know, isolating pitching and hitting, especially from
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: a pitching perspective. But how often in Major League Baseball
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: does an acquisition made it the deadline impact the World
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: Series winner a few months later?
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Ran, I think you've heard me say this before.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: I always personally felt the impact moves were when you
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: were slated to win your division already and then you're
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: making a move to really enhance your chance to win
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: once you get to the playoffs. It's really tough to
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: add that player at the deadline when they're only fifty
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: ish games left, about thirty percent of your season that
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: who will vault you from non contention to contention. I
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: just don't think there's singular players that tend to do that.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: There are players that win. You are prohibitive favorite to
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: win your division, do accentuate your chance to win in
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: the playoffs. And I think we all remember those deals,
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: but I do think they're few and far between. You know,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: I'll just name a few. You knowron so Too getting
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: traded in twenty twenty two to the Padres trade Turner
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: and Max Scherz are going to the Dodgers in twenty
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: twenty one. Eraaldis Chapman was traded in twenty sixteen to
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: the Cubs and a famous deal that really really helped
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: the Yankees moving forward. They get Labor Torres back in
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: that deal. The Cubs go on and win the World
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Series that same trade deadline, Andrew Miller got traded to
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: the then Indians now Guardians. He was extremely impactful for
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: that playoff race. They also show up in the World
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Series that year. When I was with the Rangers, two
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: deals come to mind. We acquired Cliff Lee in twenty ten.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: He unequivocally helped us win in the playoffs. We had
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: never won a playoff series before we go to the
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: World Series that year with Cliff Lee. I'm not sure
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: he really changed our fortunes of making the playoffs. We
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: were really slated to do that already. On the other side,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: in twenty seven, we traded Mark Tescher too. Braves helped
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: them get to the playoffs and certainly was a rebuilding
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: force for us moving forward. So I think those are
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: a handful of c. C. Sabathia was probably one of
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: the best performers after the trade deadline that we've seen.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: Many Ramirez and a resurrection deal to the Dodgers towards
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: the end of his career really vaulted them forward. You know,
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: cec ends up in the actual Cy Young conversation for Milwaukee.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: Hell.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: I think he even hit like five home runs after
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: he was traded. Many Ramirez got into the to the
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: MVP conversation In the NASH League, those deals are so
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: so few and far between. And then one thing I
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: just wanted to kind of express about this deadline, Like
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: every one of them, everyone's trying to acquire relief pitching
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: because there's nothing more painful than losing a game when
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: you had the lead in the last three innings, Three
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: teams made demonstrative steps towards improving their their bullpens. Milwaukee
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: acquiring Mason Miller, Philadelphia acquiring John Durant. The New York
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: Mets got Ryan Helsley, Tyler Rogers, Gregory Soto. Here's the
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: volatility of the reality of how much a bullpen can
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: impact the last fifty games of your season. The Padres
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: have the fourth best bullpen since the deadline, the Phillies
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: have the eighth best. The Mets have the worst in
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: the major leagues ever since acquiring those three players. So
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes we chase these impactful deals, but in
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: practice there's a finite number of them that truly truly
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: impact your fortunes down the stretch and in the playoffs.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think one of the important things in
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: the NBA that I'll go back to the statement I
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: made earlier that in season trades usually don't impact the
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: championship winner that year. And the reason for that that
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: is because of the preseason training camp and more than
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: half of the regular season that elapses before the trade deadline.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: With basketball, obviously, as a team sport, all five guys
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: need to function symbiotically, so one of the challenges that
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: I've had with different organizations and I've seen across the
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: league is coaches are hesitant to make a huge move
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: in season because you can't say, in May and June
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: playing in the playoffs, Hey, remember that inbounds play we
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: ran in November and the guy said, no, I was
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: playing over here. I don't remember that at all, or
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: how we shifted to his own defense and the other
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: four guys did this and you did that, well, no
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 2: I wasn't here. And so that's why for these earth
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: shattering moves, some of it may be self protection, but
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: the coaches in particular say, hey, look, let's do that
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: in the offseason if we can, especially if it's trading
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: for a superstar that you think vaults you into that
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: championship pretending category, and then have time to reset it,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: to build our systems around him, to teach him everything
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: we do offensively, defensively, after time out plays, you know,
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: in terms of signals, all of that kind of stuff.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: I think all of that is important, and all of
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: that is impactful in the NBA. And that's why I
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: think if you look at the history of the league,
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 2: at least since I've been in the league. Very rarely
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: does a team, especially a mediocre slightly above average team,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: make a move to acquire you know, say, a star,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: big name player and then go on to win the
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: championship a few months later.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I harken back to the conversation we
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: had a couple of months ago Ryan with Greg Anthony,
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: where he said, from a player's perspective, he was singularly
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: focused on not necessarily the talent of the guy who
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: walked in the door, but his ability to gain chemistry
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: with the superstars and the scheme with which that team
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: is running. I think that's a real perspective that you
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: have to offer too. I also think of a conversation
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: that I have with a good friend of mine, Scott Servis,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: who's longtime manager. From a manager's perspective, like how much
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: turnover can you have in your roster and still maintain
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: a level of chemistry and morale on your team? You know,
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: he always felt like you could probably handle four to
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: five players, but once you get into the seven to
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: eight turnover in your team, you don't have spring training
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: anymore to bring guys together, and it's like it either
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: gels or doesn't gel. And so I think sometimes from
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: a general manager's perspective, like you have to know when
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: you've made enough impact and when there starts to be
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: diminishing returns from matting the next new body to the clubhouse.
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 4: I completely agree.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: And just one example of the giant trades not moving
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 2: the championship needle. Just go back to February with Luca
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: Donsi said, Lakers. You know, people got excited about it,
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: and it is exciting long term, there's no question about it.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: But short term, especially after the Lakers voided the deal
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: with Charlotte, they did not bring in Mark Williams. I
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: think they had probably the weakest center rotation in the league.
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: They ended up benching Jackson Hayes, who was their starter.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: Lakers lost in the first round pretty quickly and pretty
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: decisively to the Minnesota Timberwolves, who were a good, you know,
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: rock solid team. They had that chemistry and continuity. So
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: as exciting as it is from a fan media perspective,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: it's not fantasy basketball or fantasy whatever sport. You can't
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 2: just put a bunch of talented guys out there. As
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: the Phoenix Suns and Brooklyn Hets and other other teams
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: have learned over the last couple of years. That chemistry
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: and continuity usually develops over time, and we saw that,
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: I think most recently just watching the NBA Finals last year.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 2: Oksee in Indiana. Those two teams Buy and Large have
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: been together for a number of years and they just
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: played one of the best finals in recent history.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 4: Well that I really enjoyed this show. Great to be
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 4: back on with you.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you're feeling one hundred percent or if not,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: you know, ninety percent muscling through here, maybe with the
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: help us some painkillers, but but we are. You're gonna
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: be back on every week. You know you can listen
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify. He is Dad Levine.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: Thanks to Tom Telesco for joining us.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 4: Stay tuned. Come back again next week on Rosters to Drink.