Latest / The Mishlei Podcast / Mishlei 26:4-5 - To Answer or Not to Answer a Fool According to His Foolishness (Part 4)

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Mishlei 26:4-5 - To Answer or Not to Answer a Fool According to His Foolishness (Part 4) · The Mishlei Podcast

0:21
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so uh day four, probably the last day on Mishlei 26, 4 through 5, Al Tang Sioki Valto, Pentival Gamata, Anek Sielki Valto Penia Fahame.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: So we're not going to go over what we did before.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, so two things I I found that I want to start with are um I think I found someone saying our approach.
0:41
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: And I did not find it in the commentaries on Mishlei.
0:44
SPEAKER_02: Um, I found it in how did I find it?
0:47
SPEAKER_02: Uh oh, yeah.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: So I was looking at the Masivta this morning on the Gemara in Chavez.
0:54
SPEAKER_02: And the Masivta had a little entry that said, like, how to understand the Gemara by way of Pshat.
1:00
SPEAKER_02: In fact, you know what?
1:01
SPEAKER_02: Let's do that first.
1:01
SPEAKER_02: Let's actually go to the Gemara.
1:03
SPEAKER_02: It mentioned something about uh Rashi and the Miri, which I have not looked at inside.
1:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, so let's look at it inside first, and then uh and then it led me to another source.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so this is on do you remember if it was Ahmed Olaf or Ahmed Bez?
1:20
SPEAKER_03: Let's try Ahmed Olaf.
1:22
SPEAKER_03: Nope.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: Okay, Ahmed Bez.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: All right, so uh we we did read Rashi, but Rashi did not say much, but he did have one like interpretive uh or reading thing.
1:33
SPEAKER_02: So okay, uh, we're not gonna read the the oh well fine.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: Ha ha l'okasha, habadibirtor, habadibir immediately to Alma.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: I did not get a chance to look into the Lokaniza thing.
1:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think that's too big of a Sugia for now in terms of like what is canonized in Tanakh and what's not.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: And I I kind of feel I would feel irresponsible tackling the question about Mishle in isolation without also looking at the Kohellas and Yhezgal uh examples.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think that's a whole sugia.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: So I'm very interested in it, but I don't think it's good to do right now.
2:00
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so Rashi had said all he said here was Bdivetora Mutorlanos Kivato.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: So that's that's uh interesting thing.
2:14
SPEAKER_02: First of all, you see that he's saying that Pasuk He is so like one of the things that the Masifta raised, which I again, I I think someone said this when we went over it, uh Lokasha Habdi Torah, Hab Mili D Alma, which one's which, right?
2:28
SPEAKER_02: So Rashi's taking the stance that don't answer the Ksil is in Dibri uh Mili D Alma and answer him is in divri torah, right?
2:36
SPEAKER_02: But the interesting thing is mutter, right?
2:39
SPEAKER_02: So I just wanted to stop and like think about that.
2:41
SPEAKER_02: What like I would have thought mhuyav is certainly if you're talking about a concern of Bizion Torah, where the Ramam, among others, holds that um uh uh you know, uh he says it's usar.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: He says it's usar to not respond, right?
3:02
SPEAKER_02: Now that's about a personal bizarre of Tam Khacham, but certainly if it's a Bizon of Torah itself, like you know, so so I guess could we try to just try to understand how Rashi is saying Mutterla nos kivato?
3:13
SPEAKER_02: And let's also look at Rashi on Mishle itself, even though they may not be consistent.
3:16
SPEAKER_02: I just don't remember what he said.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Al Taksiel, but that sounds like a different uh thing than the Gemara, right?
3:28
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't think uh being Macy Sut of Zara.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: That sounds like a Rashi Mishle specific take on it.
3:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then he says, So yeah, I don't think you can get from Rashi.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if you just had Rashi, this Rashi in isolation, you would think you should respond to the Khasil.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: Uh, but um, let's just take Rashi on the Gemara uh and see if we could understand it.
3:55
SPEAKER_02: So what's the uh what's the so the Havmin is clear that you're Kha you should you should you should respond to the KSI, lest he be a Khacham in his eyes, if the esteem of Torah is in question.
4:07
SPEAKER_02: So is Rashi not learning this in a case where there's gonna be bizarre Torah, or where's the mutter come from?
4:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:13
SPEAKER_01: So why do you think it's in a case where it's bizarre torah?
4:15
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: So it might not be.
4:19
SPEAKER_02: So then so now the question is then why should it be mutter?
4:23
SPEAKER_02: Meaning either the guy, either like Rukshesh's Binyitkal Groni said, if this guy is a uh acham beinov and you can help him, then shouldn't you help him?
4:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh and if it is not gonna help, then it shouldn't be mutter.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: It should be, well, then you shouldn't do it at all, right?
4:41
SPEAKER_02: But yeah.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: So there's just the mutter is just a weird middle stance to take.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: And also, whenever you have mutter, you know, what is the criteria based on?
4:51
SPEAKER_02: Right?
4:51
SPEAKER_02: Like that's kind of like the um, I don't know why this example comes to my mind, but uh, you know, what does the Ramam hold?
4:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh, what brava do you make on uh on thunder, I think.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: Let me see if I'm getting the right one.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: I I don't again, I I'm sure I'm sure, actually, I'm not sure, but I feel like this is standing out in my mind because it's it's just a weird anomaly in uh in in in my knowledge of the Mishnah Torah.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh hold on.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: This is totally unnecessary for me to do, but I'm just doing it because uh it's coming to my mind.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: Uh Brachos Yud Umharuko Shinish Nashville Bazaaf, Aha Brachiba Rami, Al Koha Havara Shishima, Baarats Kom Rihan Godolim, Baalha, Baabi, Shiruk, Iluhem, Kohabim Dothlim Bratimal Magam, O Kam Kohabim, Shitham Zana, Alkoh Mivarach, Brokotash Milkimal Kam, Shoko Male Olam.
5:50
SPEAKER_02: The Imratsa, Mavarach, Brokatash Milkimal Kalam, Ose Braches.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: Imratsa, right?
5:56
SPEAKER_02: I I don't think there's any other halakh I can think of in the Rama Minhokos Brakas, where it's like, you can make this braca, or if you want, you can make that braca.
6:04
SPEAKER_02: It's like, you're like, what is the uh what are the criteria?
6:06
SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean I have a theory, but uh um, but yeah, but no, there's whenever you have an option, so what should you what should the criteria be for deciding?
6:20
SPEAKER_03: I guess you can make an assessment whether you'll be effective.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that is one possibility, right?
6:26
SPEAKER_02: That not mutter in the sense of whichever you want, but mutter in the sense of there's nothing that is gonna force you one way or the other, and you have to factor in the the considerations that we talked about earlier.
6:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: So hold that thought, um, because that's what I meant when I said that I found someone who's gonna say that explicitly, I think.
6:46
SPEAKER_02: But the Masivta pointed out that Rashi takes the stance that Dalid is Mile to Alma and He is Mile Um Shmaya, right?
6:55
SPEAKER_02: Or Melidivitorah.
6:57
SPEAKER_02: But the Mi'iri on not on Mishlay, but on Shas, which I have not looked at yet, says otherwise apparently.
7:05
SPEAKER_03: Let's see.
7:08
SPEAKER_03: Uh-oh.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: Uh, here we go.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: All right.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: Afal Pi Sh royal Adam Lamo nichna ushval ruach.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: Even though it's a funny way to start, that's why I missed that.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: That's talking about this.
7:22
SPEAKER_02: We'll see if it is.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: Oh, sorry.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: No, no, here we go.
7:23
SPEAKER_02: Lolam Yeh Adam.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: It's not, okay.
7:31
SPEAKER_02: So this is also very uh interesting um um context to put this in.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: A person should always ask questions in Chachma and not be ashamed due to the deficiency of his question.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: Sha sha'ilah nasiv umavoliadia, right?
7:48
SPEAKER_02: That's like what Rebbe says, right?
7:49
SPEAKER_02: Uh, that a questi uh uh a question is a path and a uh intro to knowledge, right?
7:56
SPEAKER_02: Um that's the um that's the little spiel I give on.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I got this from Rebbe, but the difference between the uh the Shayla Sa Chacham and the Shaylus Hatam, right?
8:11
SPEAKER_02: Um is so what so the question is like what makes the Chacham's question a better question, right?
8:17
SPEAKER_02: Because they both, you know, they both lack knowledge.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: And so Rebbe always says that you know a good question will like point the way to the answer.
8:24
SPEAKER_02: And then he gives the uh Aristotle analogy, right?
8:27
SPEAKER_02: I'll say it for those who who don't know.
8:29
SPEAKER_02: The uh I I do you remember if it was black, white, black or black or white, black, white?
8:34
SPEAKER_02: Black, white, black.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: So apparently there's a case, let's just go with that, right?
8:38
SPEAKER_02: There's a case where uh geneticists can can jump on on YouTube and correct me, uh, and then the comments will get flagged as being racist.
8:44
SPEAKER_02: So um the uh you had a generation uh of black parents, and then they had a white kid, you may know this with the Aristotle example.
8:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, um uh black generation, and then they had a white kid, and then the white kid had a black kid, right?
9:01
SPEAKER_02: So the ordinary person would say, What's going on here?
9:04
SPEAKER_02: Uh but uh but uh Aristotle's question was where was the blackness in the white generation, right?
9:11
SPEAKER_02: And then even though this was long before genetics, Ruby pointed out that the question formulated precisely points you directly towards that answer, right?
9:21
SPEAKER_02: Um it sets you up for it.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: So same thing with the Ben Chakam and the Ben Tom.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: Both of them are expressing their lack of knowledge, but the Ben Tom is just expressing, I don't know this thing.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: The Khacham is saying, okay, well, I know that there are three types of mithos, uh uh Eidos, Kukim, and Mishpatim.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: And I know that they have three different types of design, where the Eidos point to historical events and the Mishpatim are understandable and legislated by even the ummas olam, and then the the chukim have reasons that are hidden.
9:46
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and but I just don't know the ones that are here.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: So he's already setting up the categories.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: So I think so.
9:52
SPEAKER_02: The uh a quite a good question, what makes the difference between a good question and a bad question is good question is a tool for knowledge, and that's essentially what he's saying.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: Sha'elah Nasivum of Oli Adia.
10:01
SPEAKER_02: Okay, fine.
10:01
SPEAKER_02: So that's a nice little uh miri to support that.
10:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh Khvar Amr Chacham Sha'al.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: This is another good one.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think this Chachim is um actually I don't know if Miri often quotes from Mivchar Hapninim, which is the collection of Hebrew um idiom uh uh parables and proverbs that was uh composed by hold on, I think it's rev Mivhar Hapninim by Yididia Hapninim, hold on.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: Uh there would be Shloma ben Yehuda ben oh Ibn is that Ibn Ghavi roll?
10:37
SPEAKER_02: Is that no that okay, so yeah, yeah.
10:39
SPEAKER_02: Wait.
10:41
SPEAKER_02: No, but the Shlomo Ibn Ghavi roll is the is the okay.
10:47
SPEAKER_02: So this is Shloma wait.
10:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, it is, right, right.
10:52
SPEAKER_02: I just got thrown off by the Yehuda thing, I think, and then the Rev Yehuda bin Tibon.
10:56
SPEAKER_02: No, that's the that's the okay, fine.
10:57
SPEAKER_02: So this is a uh collection of proverbs.
11:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it's like Jewish and maybe Arabic proverbs that are are uh arranged by subject matter.
11:04
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if Yeshiv has a copy.
11:06
SPEAKER_02: It's a fun book to to look through.
11:07
SPEAKER_02: Miri's always quoting it, and um, but usually when he says the chakam, usually that's Aristotle.
11:14
SPEAKER_02: So I I thought that this was a Mivharpanim quote, whatever.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: Shaal Bachmas Elas Shotim.
11:20
SPEAKER_02: Ask foolish questions in Chakmah, right?
11:23
SPEAKER_02: So this is what I always quote to students when they what you know, sometimes a student will say, I know this is a stupid question, but and then another student will say, There's no such thing as a stupid question.
11:32
SPEAKER_02: And then I say, No, there are stupid questions, but you should ask them, you know, uh, because oftentimes you should ask them for several reasons.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: One is if it's actually a stupid question, so then you still need to know the answer.
11:48
SPEAKER_02: That's number one.
11:48
SPEAKER_02: Number two is you could get insight into what makes a stupid question versus a good question.
11:53
SPEAKER_02: And the third is so many questions, students, high school students who are self-conscious say it's a stupid question, and it ends up being like one of the best questions.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's better to say ask stupid questions, yeah.
12:03
SPEAKER_01: Maybe over on it, right?
12:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:05
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's like there are like um like like you're learning, like you're learning the marsh.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:14
SPEAKER_01: Someone asks, like some times, someone asks, like, when would this ever happen?
12:18
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: Right?
12:19
SPEAKER_03: Right.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: It's like that's like categorically in terms of the investigation of the guarantee.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:26
SPEAKER_02: Right.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: So it's like like when do you when do you distinguish correct?
12:32
SPEAKER_02: So I think that is really the prerogative of the RUV about what you want to give time to and what takes priority.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: Like, I would take that question up, like that were my Gemara class.
12:41
SPEAKER_02: I would, unless it's there's some like time urgency, I would use that as an opportunity to explain why the Gemara deals with certain cases.
12:50
SPEAKER_02: And my favorite thing is to use the like, you know, the guy um the baby thrown off the roof and then the skewer, right?
12:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh, like who would ever do that?
12:58
SPEAKER_02: Or or the more uh R-rated uh example, right?
13:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, and uh and to show that like these are thought experiments.
13:04
SPEAKER_02: And I explained to them what the thought experiment is, and then you know, um, but but yeah, I would also make it clear that that's not the kind of question that is coming from within the thing.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: That's really more of a meta question about what the Gumara is doing.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: Okay, but uh you'll see uh uh side point, by the way, also.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: Um so I whenever I go to NIJA in person, I do QA's.
13:25
SPEAKER_02: And um this was the first QA that I've had with the ninth graders alone.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh their QAs have been with um with the whole school.
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so they asked um they asked a bunch of dumb questions.
13:40
SPEAKER_02: Um they were good questions, also, but they asked a bunch of dumb questions, like a lot of questions had to do with with the hat.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
13:47
SPEAKER_02: So, like, like how many hats do you have?
13:48
SPEAKER_02: And like, where why are you wearing hats?
13:50
SPEAKER_02: So a lot of teachers would just dismiss that, right?
13:52
SPEAKER_02: But I um took the questions and pivoted to halachic or philosophical topics.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: So the first hat question, I pivoted to the Ramam in Deus chapter five, Vakshimsha, Khacham Nikur, Deos of Amasav, and then said that and then used that to explain why people wearing black hats was a thing that used to only be for the you know people who like were kochhamim and then it spread to everyone else.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: And then the second hat question they asked me, I went into uh Kohanim and the vestments of the Kohanim.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: Third hat question they asked me, uh, I went into the importance uh between the distinction between teacher and student.
14:34
SPEAKER_02: Uh, like because the whole origin of the hat story was that the first time I gave a model lesson at Hafter uh when I was 25, then uh a 12th grade girl mistook me for a new student.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: And that's when I decided, oh, I should probably like wear a some sort of like uniform, you know.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: So so I think that's another thing that like you can take dumb questions that are actually dumb and use them as a springboard for Kochma.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: And I to me that's like a um this is not exactly what happened in the story that was like above, but the Hila Shamai thing about the Shamai chasing him away with a uh with uh with the the the Amasabinyan, right?
15:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh and Hila like taking the question seriously.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: Like I think there could be good effects in terms of the relationship between the the the teacher and the student, also, you know.
15:17
SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay, anyway, but then you'll see you're just gonna say what you say in a second.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so so you should ask foolish questions.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: Um uh the afha rav, lo he nowash, the show sake lo sikhlos.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: The ruv also should not be hold on a second.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: Did they fix this?
15:36
SPEAKER_02: Huh?
15:38
SPEAKER_02: Hold on.
15:39
SPEAKER_02: What happened to the feature?
15:43
SPEAKER_02: Don't oh, just hold hover?
15:46
SPEAKER_03: Oh, okay.
15:50
SPEAKER_02: So they moved it.
15:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that addressed was Ellie the one saying that he uh yeah, that he would always accidentally do it.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, do you know what Noash is?
15:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh is it from Yeush?
15:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, from Yeush.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: So you shouldn't like despair, right?
16:02
SPEAKER_02: Um so Lohi Noash Bishosiklo, the sikhlus shaila.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: So you should you shouldn't despair or be uh quiet, uh like in responding to his foolishness.
16:12
SPEAKER_02: Uh the sikhlushela to do the like the the foolishness of his question.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: Alehe meshivlo banachas, uh okay, but you should respond to him gently.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: Okay, Ava Bamili to Alma, Rashai Lishtohlo, Olahashiv kisihluso, you it is permitted for you to be silent or to respond kisihluso.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh that's what it means when it says answer fool according to his foolishness.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: So it's reversed from Rashi, right?
16:42
SPEAKER_02: So he says, so again, Rashi says, in words of um uh emili de alma, don't respond.
16:51
SPEAKER_02: And in divrage Torah, you may respond.
16:54
SPEAKER_02: Mi'iri is saying in words of Torah, you should uh respond.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: Um you should respond, right?
17:05
SPEAKER_02: Uh Ivalto meaning like corresponding to or despite or whatever his foolishness deserves, meaning you should address the foolishness, but immili de alma, then uh you should that's funny.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I'm mixing it up.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: Mili d'alma, you can that's funny, he's Roshai Lishhtoklo, Olahash Kizikluso.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: So melee de alma is answer.
17:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, mili de alma is answer.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: Rashi is a mila de alma uh sorry, let me go back one.
17:34
SPEAKER_02: Aneek silk ivalto, Rashi says mutter in matters of Torah.
17:41
SPEAKER_02: Is um mutter in Divra uh in Dvaran da Alma, Mili de Alma.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: Right?
17:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're saying if you answer him with Ivalto also, like make fun of his Yeah, that's it.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: Sounds like the implication is that you should make make fun of it, right?
17:56
SPEAKER_01: But Rashi doesn't seem to crush it.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: Rashi doesn't say you're answering him.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: Right, Rashi does not so the question there is is the Ki Ivalto, and we've seen this split before, is Kivalto a characterization of the prompt, or is it a characterization of the manner of answering?
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Right.
18:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: It's also interesting that he says um he takes Rashai also, like it's a it's mutter, right?
18:15
SPEAKER_02: Like it does not sound like uh Shlomo saying mutter, it sounds like you should.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: I wonder if there is another way to say uh ne that uh suggests uh that you should as opposed to you may.
18:34
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if there's any biblically grammatical way to like differentiate between the two, but I wonder if like another word, I'm wondering if they're getting it from the um not from the Gemara, but from the word, you know.
18:43
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
18:44
SPEAKER_02: So is there anything so is there any what what can we get out of this Miri here?
18:48
SPEAKER_02: I mean it's it's also interesting that he is um he's taking this as uh teaching guidance, right?
18:55
SPEAKER_02: That that um don't respond to a foolish question as if it is a dumb question that is like not worthy of your response.
19:07
SPEAKER_02: Respond to it with patience and understanding and you know and and and graciousness.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: Um that's I don't think we've seen anyone read it that way before, right?
19:18
SPEAKER_02: Let's compare this to the Mi'iri on Mishlei itself, because I think the Miri on Mishlei itself I did not get this.
19:25
SPEAKER_02: I I read the Mire on Mishle on uh the Miriam Mishlei itself um uh before I read the Gemara.
19:34
SPEAKER_02: And I I did not get this from him, but maybe I just was reading it wrong, maybe I was projecting into it uh what we already did.
19:39
SPEAKER_02: Okay, let's see here.
19:40
SPEAKER_02: So Miri sa Miri says, so he quotes both okay, uh Razal Hikhuba Mikros Elu Miz Leze.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: Vitutu Kan Bile D Alma Kambi Mili Dishmaya Clumer, should be iskeha olam.
19:59
SPEAKER_02: See, it does already sound like he's not saying it.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh lo tehe no se vanosin emo.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: Don't debate with him.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: If he is brazen against you, shit lo atlo tarek at mcha emo.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh be silent and don't, I think like means don't compare yourself to him, but like don't let yourself be like evaluated like him.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: Shakosha at a marech at mcha emo, the more you uh there's gotta be a better way to say this in English, the more you like Side yourself up against him.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, size yourself up against him.
20:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the more you like place yourself in relative comparison in comparison with him, shavob oso dava, then you're gonna be more similar to him, right?
20:37
SPEAKER_02: So that I think I like the way he expresses it quantitatively, that that it's not just an absolute thing.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: It's the more you like don't feed the trolls, the more you give in to them, the more you're like buying into their whole framework and they're gonna be viewed that way.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: While Komashabre Torah, anything in Dibre Torah and matters of instruction, Anehu kfiha royal evalto, answering according to what is roi for his evalus.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: Now, again, that if we stop there, I think you could read that the way he was uh consistent with the Gemara, right?
21:04
SPEAKER_02: Like Roy, meaning like he's asking a dumb question, but it's in Torah, so you should answer it.
21:09
SPEAKER_02: Beloshiomar sh imhu meis sheavi asmoli de chirafos.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: Not to say that if he is brazen, that you should get angry at him and bring yourself uh into uh insults.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that means like you should insult him or expose yourself to his insults.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: The Ivelus Hasheni, the second Evelis, I don't know if he means the second definition of Evelis, Perusho al Gestro Nidia.
21:37
SPEAKER_02: That's like um Claude said that Saidigun said that Xiel, the word for Xil is lacking knowledge, not like active distortions.
21:49
SPEAKER_02: Right?
21:50
SPEAKER_02: That uh oh oh, so is that why he's calling it this?
21:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this one has two Eveluses in it, right?
21:54
SPEAKER_02: Our puzzle doesn't have oh, it does.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: No, uh no, uh Tonk Xiel kibalto.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: All right, well we'll see what he says.
22:01
SPEAKER_02: Uh the the crown of Khachamim is their wealth.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: Um, the foolishness of fools is foolishness.
22:10
SPEAKER_02: Regarding this, it says, even if you don't instruct him, teach him, afhu machtig atmu kacham.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: He's gonna treat himself as a khacham, but um the tauso, and he'll persist in his error.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: It's incumbent upon you, uh, in accordance with your Chachmah to inform him of his error.
22:29
SPEAKER_02: And from there on, you can leave him.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so in other words, this is not like Rashi.
22:33
SPEAKER_02: Um, this uh not saying it's mutter bidivetora, it's no, you have a duty to do this.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh Hashamea Yishma Vahadal Vahadal Yechtal.
22:43
SPEAKER_02: Um, I uh it's from uh I looked this up this morning also from Yhaskal, I was not familiar.
22:46
SPEAKER_02: The listener should listen and the refrainer or sorry, the listener will listen, the refrainer will refrain.
22:51
SPEAKER_02: Meaning, like um, oh sorry, he said he's says the thing next that he always quotes also.
23:00
SPEAKER_02: This advice has served me so well throughout my life.
23:03
SPEAKER_02: Just as a person is obligated to uh say something that will be listened to or heeded, so too your muhuyev to not say something that will not be heeded.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: Umikomakom koshi is biada lomachos yemcha.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: Anyone who is able to protest should protest or uh or uh you know um object.
23:21
SPEAKER_02: The inlo Ladine Elamash Inavroz.
23:23
SPEAKER_02: You just listen off these uh these sayings, right?
23:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so what is he uh what so it sounds like he's saying that there's two types of vivalas.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: There's the pure brazenness and insults, um, and then there's genuine lack of knowledge, right?
23:39
SPEAKER_02: Sounds like these are two different definitions of vivalas.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: So with the with the brazenness and the insults, so then in in uh iskehaolam, don't stoop to his level, right?
23:49
SPEAKER_02: That'd be kind of like the Mara Cosmo, right?
23:51
SPEAKER_02: Don't stoop to his level.
23:53
SPEAKER_02: Um uh what was the Michelle Obama thing that people quoted for so long?
24:01
SPEAKER_02: It was before your time.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: What was it?
24:06
SPEAKER_02: They go low, we go high, something like that.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: But it was like a uh uh it was it was in reference to this.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: Um I don't even know what she was talking to.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: She's Bakian, uh Miryan, especially.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: Um but then in Diretora, you should respond to his eveles, meaning who meashos emo.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's not that you should respond in kind.
24:34
SPEAKER_02: See, is he really is he telling us what to do here other than it's unclear to me.
24:43
SPEAKER_02: This first one's unclear to me.
24:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I could possibly say that the tips of them are using the wording velocity.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: You know, so I I had that thought and I just missed it.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: Because I was like, no, there's no way it could be reading that way.
25:01
SPEAKER_02: This one's all the lesson.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's good.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: It's this type of thing.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay.
25:07
SPEAKER_02: So he's saying the first one, don't answer him when he's being an idiot.
25:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh sorry, when he's when he's when he's acting like an idiot in in in mundane matters, right?
25:19
SPEAKER_02: Uh acting like he didn't mean like insulting us up like that.
25:22
SPEAKER_02: So don't stoop to his love at all.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: But the second one is if he is genuinely uh ignorant and you have the ability to make known to him his error, then you should answer.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: And that's a video torah, right?
25:35
SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: All right, that's a good, that's a clean distinction.
25:37
SPEAKER_02: And that fits in the words.
25:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay, good.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: All right, next, let's do the source that the um uh Masifta pointed me to, which is the Rashbat on Avos 214.
25:50
SPEAKER_02: Heavy Shakulumotora Vida Mashitashivorus.
25:54
SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh, which by the way, just FYI.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: Um anyone know the the the Gearsa distinction um in this Mishnah?
26:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh in Heavishaka Lumotora Vida Mashitash Vlappikorus.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: What did he say?
26:16
SPEAKER_02: It's always just good to be aware of the the Girsa things here.
26:19
SPEAKER_02: So uh the I think the Ramban has Heavishakod Lumotora sorry, Havishakud uh Lamaid, or maybe it's Lomot Mashitashi Lap, of course they merged the first two into one.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: Um and uh let's just see what the Kaufman manuscript has.
26:37
SPEAKER_02: We all know what the Kaufman manuscript is the most accurate uh um this is the Sheila of Mishnayos.
26:43
SPEAKER_02: No, this is the uh this is the oldest um edition of Mishnayos that we have.
26:47
SPEAKER_02: Uh obviously doesn't mean it's the best, but yeah, heavy shot.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: Oh, and it's also it has nikudos, uh like in the actual manuscript, and they're nakudos that are different style than whatever our typical Mishnah's use, yeah.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: The what the the note guy.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: The note guy.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, you know when you put translation on the Mishnah, it's a little like notes.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so even really good.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: I don't know who it is, but like interesting.
27:15
SPEAKER_01: Like Jake and I wrote that last year.
27:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and like like he had one thing is like the correct translation makes no sense.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: So you know it's possible that I have not noticed it because I just rarely go to the English in the Mishnayos.
27:29
SPEAKER_02: Okay, no, that that all right, so good to good to know about yeah.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: That's really good.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: The one I do know is Mishnatz eres for L is in is fantastic, right?
27:42
SPEAKER_02: And someone told me it's like a family?
27:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, maybe you told me that.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right, right, yeah.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: So that that's good to know.
27:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay, anyway.
27:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh Havishakadlumud Mashitors.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so this has oftentimes the Ramams and this one are very, very similar.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, also you get weird, um weird uh vocalizations of some of the names.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh none here, but anyway, it's fun.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: Ruby Helail.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: So apparently it's not so clear that it's hilo.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: Okay, you gotta tell your brother, uh, you know, yeah.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: Helail.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: Okay, anyway, the Rosh Bats, uh, which I would not have found because I don't look at the Rashbats for Mishle stuff.
28:19
SPEAKER_02: Um Rosh Bats is Roshloma bin Yitrach Duran, Bin Samach Duran.
28:24
SPEAKER_02: Uh he wrote, so he has two distinctions that you should know about.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: One is that he was a late Rishon, like the Miri.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: So he often does a digest of the other Mefarshim.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: So on Pirke Abbas, especially, if you want to check your learning of Rashi, Ramah, and Rabina Yona, he will often weigh in and interpret them or disagree with them.
28:45
SPEAKER_02: Second, is he's one of the only ones, you know the uh Rabbi bin Yamin Lao's the Sages series, where he does like um like it's like academic plus traditional learning like of texts from the Tanayim and Amaraim, but in their historical context.
29:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, like taking, let's say, for example, like all the statements of Ruby Akiva and then contextualizing them within the different periods in his life, and then also like what was going on politically, and then understanding them like that.
29:18
SPEAKER_02: So interesting stuff.
29:19
SPEAKER_02: So the Rajpats is like the closest thing to a forerunner of that.
29:21
SPEAKER_02: Every mission in Pirky Avos, he starts off with who was this person?
29:25
SPEAKER_02: What other statements do they have?
29:26
SPEAKER_02: Who is his Rebbe?
29:27
SPEAKER_02: Who was his Talmud?
29:28
SPEAKER_02: I think he's doing it because Pirkyavos is like the Masora thing, but like he will sometimes give interpretations that actually bring in the biographical details into their Huhaya Omer thing.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: So that's also very handy.
29:41
SPEAKER_02: And it's a very long commentary, but it is uh it's it's pretty good.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: Also, the other thing he's known for is he was um sorry, he is a one of these um philosophical anti-Rambom or sorry, anti-Greek philosophy um people, I think.
29:59
SPEAKER_02: Um let's just see if this mentions.
30:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, uh, did it say where he was?
30:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Jewish Community of Spain, uh or Algeria.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: He moved to Algeria.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: Um uh yeah, 1361 to 1444, so very end of the Rishonim.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, he was knowledgeable in philosophy, but I believe, I believe he has a lot of anti-Maimonidean stuff.
30:23
SPEAKER_02: So he's very good for um, if you want like a Rishon who is not like he's not Kabbalistic, you know.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I don't know if he knew Kabbalah or not, but he's not he's not like uh, you know, he's like like kind of like Kreskas.
30:35
SPEAKER_02: Like Kreskas is philosophical but anti-Aristotelian, you know, and and anti-Ram in certain regards.
30:40
SPEAKER_02: Great Rishon.
30:41
SPEAKER_02: Um, not that we shouldn't need my my approval, but anyway, okay.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: Um Valzanemar, okay, so uh uh yes a la mash topic chorus.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: Um so uh okay, what did you just say?
30:56
SPEAKER_02: Okay, Valzenamar Anexio Kivato, Ukvar Hikusham Mimikra Echad, Ah Shinamar Al Tang Siel Kivato, but you two Hab Militama Umilid uh Umilidama Himkugon Ososh Amor Libhya.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I meant to look this up.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: What your mother is my wife, you're my son, and you're my son.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: What's wrong with that?
31:23
SPEAKER_02: The random guy who said Oh, a guy said to Bihia.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: I thought he was saying to his own son.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay, fine.
31:30
SPEAKER_02: So Ulifamim Sarek Laanos Bakiyotze Kamosh Amrukapolim, kidesh lullahoti albenehem la shame mamzerim.
31:40
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that uh he had to like defend himself um uh against this accusation that his uh children were mamzerim.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay, Zehu Alderha Midrash.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's midrash.
31:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay, alder this is what I wanted to get to.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: I think that's exactly what we said, right?
32:06
SPEAKER_02: Is that it's not telling you what you should and shouldn't do, you know, like in a prescriptive way, saying sometimes you do this, sometimes you do that, based on what you see about weighing the concerns of is he gonna be in his eyes if you're silent, and is he gonna uh are you gonna be equated with him in his foolishness?
32:21
SPEAKER_02: Vaniomer Alderhabshat, uh, so I guess this is Aniomer um meaning not the first one was him explaining the Kemara.
32:31
unknown: Right?
32:32
SPEAKER_02: So I I think that's just what we said, which is good.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Uh Vaniomer Alder Khabshat, um Shahakolhu B inyan achad, that both of them are in the same regard or same subject.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: We'll see.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: Shahat Tark Lanos Lok Ivalto, that you need to answer him in accordance with his foolishness, that if you don't answer him, he'll be a chakam in his eyes.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: Lomarki Nitzachha, that meaning that uh that uh that you'll be defeated, he'll be defeat you.
33:05
SPEAKER_02: But don't answer him according to his foolishness in matters of foolishness, or ledvar, le daber tipsus.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, uh, don't equate yourself with him to speak foolishness, if he speaks words of foolishness, teshuvasha chokma, then your response should be chokma.
33:23
SPEAKER_02: About anotishtok low.
33:26
SPEAKER_02: Um uh but answer him and don't be silent.
33:29
SPEAKER_02: I don't know who he's getting at there.
33:33
SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm also not interested.
33:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay, um, I wanted to do he quotes Midrash Mishle, so this is another one.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: So uh what do you know about Midrash Misley?
33:41
SPEAKER_01: I've been asked, is it is it Rishonik?
33:43
SPEAKER_02: So it is uh so so it's there's a debate, and I gotta give credit where credit is due.
33:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, lately I I do ask both Astra and Claude.
33:53
SPEAKER_02: This time Astra got a better answer uh than Claude didn't Claude was modet, and then I had Claude summarize it.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: Um, that Midrish wander wrong.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: Um Midrash Mishli is a relatively late Midrash compiled after the Talmud, and most scholars today date its final editing to the early Goonic period, probably late 9th or 10th century, early 10th.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: Opinions vary.
34:12
SPEAKER_02: Zuns linked it to Midrash Thilim and placed both in 11th century Italy.
34:16
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: Buber placed it in Babylonia soon after the Baby was completed, partly because he believed the Geonim quoted it.
34:22
SPEAKER_02: Svi Rir Meir Rabinowitz dated it to the 7th or 8th century in Erit Israel based on Ganiza fragments with Palestinian spelling and terminology.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: The main modern authority, Burton Visotsky, who produced the critical edition, argued for roughly 860 to 940.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Uh so like late Goonic.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: Um, he reasoned that it uses sources from the mid-9th century and that some of its passages seem to argue against the Karaite Daniel Al-Khumisi, who lived around that time.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: He also doubted that the Goonim actually quoted.
34:50
SPEAKER_02: As for where it was compiled, Visotsky thought Erti Srael was likely but not proven.
34:54
SPEAKER_02: It's worth keeping in mind that although the book was compiled um late, many of the traditions it preserves are much older.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: So I've actually become increasingly a fan of Midrash Mishle.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: Um uh I I think early on I just missed it because uh it its interpretations I thought were all like heavily midrashic, and that's just not my my my jam.
35:12
SPEAKER_02: But I've noticed it gives um like shot-based approaches.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: So who would have thought that it would have addressed um Twitter?
35:20
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh this is basically, or maybe I guess it depends on how you use Twitter.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: Um, but check this out.
35:28
SPEAKER_02: Altang Siokivato, Maxiv Akhrav, Anex Yokivato, Amur Huna, Al Tanksio Kivato, Bemakum Shemakirin Oska V Oso, in a place where they recognize you and him.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: Pentishva Ligomata, shlyuhu omrim bo urukama uham no sevnosin imaxio.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:47
SPEAKER_02: So, and then same thing anexio kivato, amoribushoban levi, bamakumakirin oscha v oso.
35:52
SPEAKER_02: Lama, penti khachamina, shlo yhu omrim ilule lohaya hashidvarim, shumudabra lav, lohaya shosiklo.
35:59
SPEAKER_02: So basically, if you're anonymous, like on the internet, go for it.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: Right?
36:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, so in other words, you don't want to uh be perceived as a chachum debating with a Xiel, probably for the reasons that they said earlier.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: Like it's not becoming of a chakum to do that, or or you know, like it's it's it's not gonna be uh I I think it has to do with like the the bizion or like you know consequences to you.
36:27
SPEAKER_02: But if if there's not gonna be any reputational damage, then it sounds like he's saying Mr.
36:33
SPEAKER_02: Michel is saying you should go for it, right?
36:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so it it's an interesting thing.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: This would seem to be not speaking to damage to your Mitos.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't think that this is saying that you should engage in insults in a way that's gonna harm your like Divya um Nav Navala or whatever, you know.
36:53
SPEAKER_02: But in terms of the reputation, I don't know what he means, uh ilule lohaya chashud, but devarim should medabir alav lohaya shosiklo.
37:01
SPEAKER_02: Is that talking about Rubikhiya type thing where like someone is making an accusation and um and uh it's funny things that lo ye chambe reasoning, right?
37:13
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't really seem to correlate to this.
37:16
SPEAKER_01: But generally we're if you think about Ribbia in the model, right?
37:19
SPEAKER_01: Like, why is it like there's a risk even when Ruby is going to respond?
37:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right, right.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna dignify those accusations by responding to them.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: It's actually about like well, who's blues of when someone accuses you of being a non zero.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: It's like if you respond, then you then we then you have a castrash one zero.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: Right.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: Then if you don't respond, you have thus one zero.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:40
SPEAKER_02: Right.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, but but um but like you I mean, I think what the runner's point whatever's a whole, but yeah, oh I think what it's pointing to is like any involvement in this is risky.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it lends legitimacy to it, you know you're saying no.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right, right.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: So so that I understand, but what I'm not understanding is how this part jives with the place where they recognize you versus place where they don't recognize you.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: Like, let's look back really quickly at the uh Rush Bots.
38:14
SPEAKER_02: He just summarizes Uva Midrash Mishle, Amru Altan bi ircha anesh lob ircha.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: So, and that was the first thing that I saw before I saw the Midrash Mishle itself.
38:24
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, it's talking about anonymity and uh and reputation.
38:28
SPEAKER_02: So if if no one's gonna recognize you, and you can respond in a way that's gonna disabuse him of the notion that he's a chaham, and you don't care if people equate uh you with him, so then go for it.
38:42
SPEAKER_02: What what do you have to lose?
38:43
SPEAKER_02: You're you're you're you're removing one chakram a potentially from the world, you know, and you're at least not letting him go away thinking he's right.
38:50
SPEAKER_02: But then the actual Midrash Mishlay bringing in the Chashad, I I just am not understanding that.
38:58
SPEAKER_02: And it's like and this is an ixu kibato, but machum sha'in maker's kova oso, so then why should you even care about being chashud?
39:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, but the saying is saying that for not for the fact that he was that I think that you right that people will say about you.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: No, no, maybe about him.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: I just don't know.
39:25
SPEAKER_02: That he's saying about you, right?
39:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: Fine.
39:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, meaning, I mean like you're insecure, or like something like that.
39:32
SPEAKER_02: Something like that, yeah.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh he wasn't chash.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: Okay, fine.
39:35
SPEAKER_02: People will say, so another word like this, let's just play it through.
39:38
SPEAKER_02: So you should respond to him in a place where they don't recognize you.
39:40
SPEAKER_02: So let's say you and I are talking uh and you guys don't know us, right?
39:45
SPEAKER_02: So um, so let's say I say, uh, so let's say I'm the I'm the Xiel, so I'm saying stuff about you, you should respond, lest I be a Chacham, I the fool be a Chacham in my in my own eyes, that the other guys will say, if not for the fact that you're supposed to be about meaning it was true.
40:10
SPEAKER_02: He's speaking of so he's he's speaking about me.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm speaking about him.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
40:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm speaking about him.
40:19
SPEAKER_02: Say again?
40:19
SPEAKER_01: This isn't a makam shaymakaran.
40:21
SPEAKER_02: Sh aimakarin, right.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh you still shouldn't do it.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: You should do it, right?
40:25
SPEAKER_02: Anexio Kivoto.
40:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, fine.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: Lest lest uh the fool be a Kakam in his eyes.
40:31
SPEAKER_01: Right, but then why would they say you lula?
40:32
SPEAKER_01: They don't know.
40:33
SPEAKER_02: I know, yeah, that that that's what's confusing me.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's one more place we can look, which is the uh Rinach Mias.
40:38
SPEAKER_02: There's another commentary.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: The only reason I don't use the Rinachmias is just because he's not on La Torah, and like he's he often so it's a funny thing.
40:46
SPEAKER_02: He often um uh quotes uh, or if you want to be not generous, plagiarizes.
40:52
SPEAKER_02: No, but back then it was common to quote people without saying that citing the source.
40:55
SPEAKER_02: He quotes other people.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: Um it's weird because sometimes he does quote the other people, so I don't know what what's up.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: Um so it is a good way, also like the Raj Bots to look through another lens.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: So he says like this Al Tanksio Kivato Pam Acha So Stein Ava Imra isashu mumain massariz la emis, mach evalto, rov pa'amim, az anek siel kivato pinyi khamenav.
41:19
SPEAKER_02: So that's not what uh well that's not why I'm reading him now, but that's an interesting one, right?
41:23
SPEAKER_02: Is that that um don't answer him k'ivalto, meaning I think don't answer him using full uh like uh Anvil's tactics.
41:31
SPEAKER_02: Um but then if you see that he's being stubborn, then you should answer him lest he be a chakam in his eyes.
41:37
SPEAKER_02: So this is like the um the Chacham smackdown, right?
41:41
SPEAKER_02: Like the um my favorite one of these, I was thinking about this the other day.
41:45
SPEAKER_02: I won't say who it was about.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: If you know, then you know that uh uh Rafesach getting fed up with someone giving Svaras, and I think the line that Rafaisach says is you're either stubborn or you're stupid, and I know you're not stupid.
42:01
SPEAKER_02: Okay, right?
42:02
SPEAKER_02: So I think that was like a good, yeah.
42:04
SPEAKER_02: But like, like you answer patiently, but then if you see that they're being stubborn, then you can like smack them down, right?
42:11
SPEAKER_02: Okay, so that no one we've seen answers it that way before, right?
42:15
SPEAKER_02: That this is in this is the closest thing is to the Miri about in teaching, but he's saying in the same session of teaching, like then uh you know, then uh you know who I mean who says this.
42:24
SPEAKER_02: The Rambam um Rambam says this in uh Tamatora, right, when he codifies this.
42:30
SPEAKER_02: Uh Dalid Hei or Dalad.
42:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh Dalin.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: Harav, oh, it's Dalad and He.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: Harav Sha Limade Velohivino Tamidim, a rav who taught and the students didn't understand.
42:47
SPEAKER_02: Lo you chosale and viergas.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: You shouldn't be angry at them in rage.
42:50
SPEAKER_02: Elachozer of Shono Hadavra Ful Kama Pahamim.
42:52
SPEAKER_02: You should go back and teach it many times, Ajavino Omekah Halaha, until they understand the depth of the halacha.
42:59
SPEAKER_02: And a student shouldn't say, I understand.
43:01
SPEAKER_02: When he doesn't understand, when he didn't understand, Elchoser Vishwa Fuel Kama.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: He should go back and ask even many times.
43:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh Allah Brabaz, if his Reb gets angry and rages at him, Yomor Lo Rebbi, Torah, Lima Nitara, then he should say, Um, uh Rebi, it's Torah, and I need to learn.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: My mind is uh deficient.
43:19
SPEAKER_02: John Siskovik used to always say that in uh in that voice.
43:22
SPEAKER_02: Rebbi torahi in Rabay's actually.
43:25
SPEAKER_02: Lo yhiya Tamid Bosh mecha verab shalomdu ni pa'am rishona oshnia, vhulo lamad ella akar kamapamim.
43:32
SPEAKER_02: A student should not be ashamed from his friends who learned it the first or second time, and he didn't understand it except after many times.
43:40
SPEAKER_02: If he's embarrassed by this, he'll go in and out of the base middle and not understand anything.
43:51
SPEAKER_02: Uh, that's why the kham said, uh an embarrassed person cannot learn uh doesn't learn and the kaptan can't teach.
43:54
SPEAKER_02: Okay, but made varma murim, besmash lohibino tuminim had if a student didn't understand the thing because of its depth.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: Ava, im niker la ravitora, um misrapin a layan.
44:08
SPEAKER_02: But if the rav uh if it's recognizable to the rav that they are being lax on words of Torah or loose or like um uh like uh in uh Ramam says misrapi torah is like eating it like amid like luxury and like food and drink and like you know relaxation.
44:25
SPEAKER_02: Um and that's why they're not understanding.
44:33
SPEAKER_02: Then the Rab is uh is obligated to rage at them and to shame them with words in order to sharpen them.
44:39
SPEAKER_02: Uhim, zero mara batamirim.
44:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and that's what the umim said, uh, you know, cast uh bile into the tamidim, right?
44:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh or bitterness, right?
44:49
SPEAKER_02: Now, I don't recommend you do this in modern education, uh, because you're gonna get angry parent emails and you're gonna turn off kids from learning forever because kids are very delicate these days.
44:58
SPEAKER_02: Okay, but um um yeah, so I think that's what the uh re-nachmias is talking about, that if you see that they're just struggling to understand, you should be patient uh and not answer in a sharp, insulting way.
45:13
SPEAKER_02: But if you see that they're being uh stubborn, then you should uh knock them down.
45:18
SPEAKER_02: Okay, but then he summarizes the midrash Michlei.
45:21
SPEAKER_02: Oh no, not yet.
45:24
SPEAKER_02: I thought he did.
45:26
SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'm just hallucinating having seen this.
45:32
SPEAKER_02: Hold on.
45:33
SPEAKER_02: See, he goes a lot of answers here.
45:35
SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, okay, I guess I thought maybe someone else quoted this also.
45:39
SPEAKER_02: All right, well, we're at done, we're uh out of time anyway, but uh okay, I think this is a really, really good uh walkthrough of these.
45:46
SPEAKER_02: I think I I would give this um advice uh is that if you ever need to give a Mishle Khabura that will last a long time, uh this is a very good one to do because it is uh uh I think it's accessible to every, you know, like people can like think about it easily.
46:09
SPEAKER_02: It's very practical.
46:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, it's uh and there's like lots of approaches to choose from.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
46:14
SPEAKER_02: All right, this is good.
46:15
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so Blue Netter, we will move on to the next about responding or about ceiling next.