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Pay the Cock and Drink the Hemlock | Socrates · Beheaded

0:05
SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm Elizabeth Black and I'm Megan Moore.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: And this is episode nine of Beheaded Season 1.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sticking with us.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: We are actually at the point where we think we need an intro episode, like a one-minute trailer, essentially, at the very beginning of our podcast.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: So we're like, hi, um, I swear the quality gets better.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: I swear everything gets a little bit more finessed as time goes on.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, because we've noticed a bit of a uh a drop after episode one.
0:37
SPEAKER_01: I didn't want to say that.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: No.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: I think I mean I do this personally when I find a new podcast because I really do enjoy listening to podcasts.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: And I'm a harsh critic, and I give it about two minutes, I think is my cutoff point.
0:52
SPEAKER_00: Um I think our content is still good.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Like if you go back to episode one, you're like, whoa, the quality.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: But you're also like, hey, like, I mean, like we haven't changed really.
1:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, we've said the same thing, no, we haven't been changing, but it's just a kind of forewarning, like, hey, like, we do get our shit together at some point.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: It's not all gonna be just like us with guitar hero microphones from the thrift store.
1:13
SPEAKER_00: It gets better, we get better production quality every time.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: So before I actually hit the record button every time, I'm always trying to find a new way to say hello and welcome to Beheaded.
1:26
SPEAKER_01: And it's just like my go-to.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: And if I try anything silly, Elizabeth literally just will stop it and like, why are you saying it like that?
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Just do what you normally do.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: She's like, Okay, this is how I'm gonna start.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Who's like, Hi, it's Beheaded! Hi, Beheaded here.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: No, no, let's not do that.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, I just like the way it is.
1:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, welcome to Beheaded.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm Elizabeth Moore.
1:50
SPEAKER_01: We already went Elizabeth Moore.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Clearly.
1:53
SPEAKER_01: So my work schedule changed, and I'm not used to working on Fridays.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: So, and that's normally our recording day.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: So if I'm a little bit tired, I'm just not used to working a full day and podcasting.
2:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you're tragic.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, you know, I've done this eight times, and uh I always have my shit together.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: So I'm a little bit welcome to the rest of the rocker world.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: Well, all right, I think our first thing we want to start with is we have something actually really exciting that I'm very proud to announce.
2:20
SPEAKER_01: It's a milestone.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: It's a milestone for us.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: So there is a website that I actively use, and it is called executedtoday.com.
2:30
SPEAKER_01: And I highly, highly recommend people to go and check it out because it is incredible how many executions are on there.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, you know, January 31st on this day, who are the big executions that's happened in history?
2:47
SPEAKER_01: And I don't think there's one date without an execution.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Which is pretty crazy when you think about it.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: Right?
2:53
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's overlapping executions.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
2:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, you can also go to a calendar and go to a specific date.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: Like I love like I'm a narcissist, so like I'll find my birthday and like ooh, who was executed on my birthday.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: And two stories off the top of your head.
3:07
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's it's it was like a Chinese, I don't know the name, but it was like um like a more of a modern day Chinese execution.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, they do modern day stuff too.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: It's not just historical.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: All eras, years, modern, historic.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: That is cool.
3:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the reason I'm talking about this is A, I use this website a lot to find facts.
3:28
SPEAKER_01: It's very reliable.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: I trust it.
3:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, a lot of good information on there, and I can find almost anybody we're about to talk about.
3:35
SPEAKER_01: But I saw that they were selling um playing cards.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: Like a deck of playing cards.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, and each card is an execution, like an on-this day execution.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: And this is funny because the jokers are actually different types of executioners.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, did you notice them?
3:52
SPEAKER_00: No, they're really great, and they're like like comedic looking.
3:54
SPEAKER_01: We're looking at them right now.
3:55
SPEAKER_01: I'll get some pictures online.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, but we each got a deck, and I know I'm supposed to actually use them like playing cards, but I'm kind of using them more like trivia, like reference cards.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, and just so you know, like each suit, um, so instead of having like hearts, clubs, king, or sorry, kings.
4:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's the wrong word.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Um that's is it a suit?
4:14
SPEAKER_00: It's a suit.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: It's a yeah, well, there's clubs, spades, hearts, and diamonds.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay, that's what I'm referring to.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: So so each suit isn't like the normal suit you would see.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: So instead there's French, there's German, there is English, and then there's Rose.
4:29
SPEAKER_00: Tudor Rose.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: There's like two Tudor Roses on there.
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Is the little insignia of the suit.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: And then like within the Tudor Rose, it's like Thomas More, Anne Boleyn, Thomas.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: Catherine Howard.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: Um so our milestone that we're talking about is I've had the pleasure of reaching out and and working with the creator of this website, and we're working on a little bit of a collaboration here.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: So I highly recommend these playing cards.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Um again, this started these.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: This started after I bought the cards.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: This isn't just a thing like I I'm forcing out that these cards are are silly or whatever, but I actually bought them first and loved them.
5:09
SPEAKER_00: So we have our per our first promotion.
5:12
SPEAKER_00: We do.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, if you are interested in your own deck of playing cards from Executed Today, um go to their website, you order like normal.
5:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, but upon checkout, we have a we have a code for you.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: This is so exciting.
5:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, so the code is beheaded and it's all lowercase.
5:29
SPEAKER_00: Um so just beheaded at checkout and you get 10% off of your deck of playing cards.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it ships fast, it's a very personable experience.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so go check it out.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: It's executedtoday.com.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: And while you're on it, go to your birthday and just see.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: I want to see, like, who, you know, tell us who was executed on your birthday.
5:48
SPEAKER_00: Please do.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, reach out to our social media or wherever you want to post it and let us know who was executed on your birthday or your favorite date.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:56
SPEAKER_01: I actually now I'm curious.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: I kind of want to look up like who was executed on Christmas and ooh, I don't know.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:02
SPEAKER_00: Um I could tell you who's executed on Easter.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Actually, three days before Easter.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, technically.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
6:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, three days before.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: Um they're fun though.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: Look, yeah, look them up.
6:15
SPEAKER_00: They're really um in uh informative, and they're obviously playing cards, so they're useful.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're still useful.
6:20
SPEAKER_01: And so I'll take a picture and put it on the website and make sure you have that information.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: But go check out executedtoday.com.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: I keep refreshing my email looking for a response.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: Someone please help me.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: We are still caught up on our stupid question.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: And now, like It's a thing.
6:38
SPEAKER_01: More than anything, I just want to get the answer.
6:41
SPEAKER_01: I know.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: I just want it to have the satisfaction of if you don't know what we're talking about.
6:45
SPEAKER_00: We're talking about again, how many prisoners the Tower of London can hold.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: This was like two episodes ago.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: This was a long time ago now.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: How many prisoners at a time did the Tower of London hold?
6:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you guys are listening, like, oh my gosh, give it up, let's move on.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: But at this point, it's a mission in my life.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna find out.
7:02
SPEAKER_01: So I did email Tower of London and I got a very quick response.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: I I want to be a part of that customer service.
7:10
SPEAKER_00: There's hiring for customer service.
7:14
SPEAKER_01: Which is actually part of like the same circuit.
7:16
SPEAKER_01: Excuse me.
7:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, I did get a response from them, a pretty decent response, just saying, you know, it wasn't always used as a prison, so it's really hard to tell.
7:26
SPEAKER_01: But they gave me, they referred me to the curators of the Tower of London, which that in itself I was so excited over.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I got their email.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: We're waiting.
7:36
SPEAKER_01: And it's been about a week, so I'm gonna like start to do the poke.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: A gentle nudge.
7:40
SPEAKER_01: A gentle nudge.
7:41
SPEAKER_01: Just just what what what do you say like professionally in the email in the just following up on my previous correspondence.
7:47
SPEAKER_01: What's the phrase I always use?
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Like just bringing this to the top of my inbox.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, yeah, that's what I say.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: Like, just wanted to push this to the top of your inbox.
7:54
SPEAKER_00: Please address this question.
7:56
SPEAKER_00: So insulted when people say that to me because I'm such a highly organized person.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't lose email, like I don't have a giant inbox where my emails are spilling out.
8:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, I know you emailed me.
8:07
SPEAKER_00: I'm ignoring you.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm a when people are like, just bringing this to the top of your inbox, I'm like, oh, like I lost it.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm the person that always goes, per my previous email.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: Per my previous email.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: That's my thing too.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: That's when I want to be a little bit snarky.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: No, I used to refrain from being snarky.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm full snark now.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: I just have to be.
8:26
SPEAKER_00: You are full snark in some of your emails.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: Again, we work together, so I am a witness to this.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: I enjoy it.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: I grab my popcorn.
8:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's anything that's like passive aggressive.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: I just think I'm very direct now.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: And I like that.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say passive aggressive.
8:38
SPEAKER_01: I would just say aggressive in some ways.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: Direct.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: Direct.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm okay with that.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: No, it's not so bad.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I'm I think like a big dream of mine is someone's gonna come out of the woodwork and reply to one of our Instagram posts or email us or reach out to us and our.
8:57
SPEAKER_00: A lot of listeners.
8:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and someone's gonna say, Hey, yeah, I work at the Tower of London.
9:01
SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna get you the personal email address of No C Wolseley or Susanna Lipscomb, some of our favorite historians, or even maybe like Dan Jones himself will reply back.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Probably you don't know who I'm talking about.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm I think he's a listener.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: Might be a listener.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: As a as um a number one tutor nerd, I know some of these historians that I follow and admire and appreciate and look up to and see.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Will we one day want to be their friends?
9:31
SPEAKER_01: I would love to just sit and have wine with Susanna Lipscomb.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: She's Doctor Susanna Lipscomb.
9:35
SPEAKER_01: Oh, excuse me.
9:36
SPEAKER_01: And maybe she'll reach out and give us this answer.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:40
SPEAKER_00: We're desperate.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: No, never.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: I am.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: But we will find this answer eventually.
9:45
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I don't know if we had any follow-ups.
9:47
SPEAKER_00: I think we had one other one from our William Wallace episode.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I learned something kind of silly, and I think it's obvious, but went over my head at first.
9:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we were um well, I was listening to this podcast with my boyfriend, and he had kind of mentioned when we were going over the whole, like, oh, they threw tomatoes and cabbage at William Wallace, like, how did they even have these things available?
10:06
SPEAKER_00: And we meant it more as like, again, if it were us, we would probably be starving and we would collect the food.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: But apparently, obviously, it was a thing that you would throw cabbage and tomato at people, and that's where the website Rotten Tomatoes comes from.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like the term rotten tomatoes.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: I guess term and yeah, company.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, so essentially that you know, when you threw a lot of tomatoes at people, obviously they would just like sit there and rot and well, no, they would throw, they would only throw the rotten tomatoes because they weren't using it anymore.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: Just kidding.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, direction.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: So I thought that was kind of funny.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: Like it's it makes sense when you think about it.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
10:41
SPEAKER_01: Rotten tomatoes.
10:42
SPEAKER_00: I like it.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: So, um, we learned that from the last episode.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: But other than that, the only other follow-up was trying to find William Wallace's body and like see if he had ever had a proper burial.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: He did have a funeral about 700 years after he died, like a formal memorial service for him.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: But they, to my knowledge, have not recovered his body.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: I tried, I looked at a lot of different um websites, try to find the information.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty sure they're just it wouldn't be his whole body, it would just be like limbs.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: We said that we're like, we're like, maybe they collected his limbs from all these corners, you know, and brought them together and had a right burial, but no, I don't think that actually happened.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: So they're decaying somewhere.
11:20
SPEAKER_01: That just means we can go on an excavation and go.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: I can say we could find them.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: Or if you refer to our Ramsey's episode, maybe they had a mummy party.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: Do you know that we found a website?
11:32
SPEAKER_01: So one of our listeners.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: What?
11:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I showed you this.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay, one of our listeners, shout out to Chase.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: He found a website where you can purchase mummy parts.
11:46
SPEAKER_01: Ew.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: But they were expensive, right?
11:48
SPEAKER_01: They were like, and sold out.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: The there was an Egyptian not available.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, currently not available.
11:54
SPEAKER_01: There was an Egyptian priest hand on sale for$22,000, but currently sold out.
12:00
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know why they had a promotion on it.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: That's why it liquidated so quickly.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: Um but they have really cool stuff on this website.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: How can you confirm that it's a priest's hand?
12:10
SPEAKER_00: It's like some like idiot selling him out of his basement.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: He's like, That's true.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: How did they know this profession?
12:15
SPEAKER_00: It's called lying.
12:16
SPEAKER_01: Maybe he was holding a rosary.
12:20
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, in ancient Egyptian times.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes, yes.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: So a Catholic rosary in ancient Egyptian times.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's kind of like a taxidermy website, so you can buy taxidermy things, but there's also like human brains and um yeah.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I went deep into it.
12:34
SPEAKER_01: Man, we're this is dark web shit.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, this is why people listen to us because they are sick people and they want to know this stuff.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: And they want to buy some mummified hands for 22 minutes.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Tell us about your mummy unwrapping ceremony, let us know how it goes.
12:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we have Socrates tonight.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: We do.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, we're actually pretty excited about Socrates.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: We were a little like no lie nervous to approach this because when we were researching, obviously he's a philosopher, so it gets very philosophical when you're learning about his life, like very heavy reading.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: And we were kind of like, okay, we're gonna not go super deep into his philosophy.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the point of this podcast is to focus on the execution.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: So we'll spend most of our time there.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: We will briefly touch on his philosophy so you can kind of understand um some of the things that was going through his head upon execution, some of the things Plato wrote after him.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and we'll get into all of that.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: But it's very fascinating stuff.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: And me, I I studied abroad, I think I mentioned this several episodes ago, but I studied abroad in college in Athens.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: So I lived there for six months.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: So for me, it's like it's kind of personal, it feels very like near and dear to my heart.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: Like I lived right next to Kelly Modemoto Stadium, which is right like near the Acropolis.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: So all the historic sites.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, I've been to the Oracle at Delphi, which we'll get into.
13:47
SPEAKER_00: So for me, like reading all this was very refreshing because I did take philosophy classes when I was over there, and I was like, Oh yeah, this is reminding me of my 20-year-old self.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: This is such a foreign subject to me.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: I started writing major.
13:59
SPEAKER_01: It's very similar in terms of just theory and so Elizabeth and I started um you know breaking down our notes and comparing and setting up our lineup for this evening's episode, and she goes, Okay, Megan, what did what what did you learn about Socrates?
14:14
SPEAKER_01: And I pause.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: He was a philosopher.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: I just felt like this, it's Megan.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna say this felt like homework, but this is such a foreign subject to me.
14:27
SPEAKER_01: I feel so comfortable talking about British history, talking about the Renaissance, talking about medieval um history.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: So don't get me wrong, it was really cool to it kind of similar to the um Egyptian episode we did.
14:39
SPEAKER_01: Like, I know this is stuff that I feel like I like it because we can balance each other of what we're both really into.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: And I really enjoy learning stuff I don't think I would have ever picked up a book and read before.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I'm also I I think this was one of the first times I was like, I'm kind of nervous to do this episode.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to sound stupid.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: And I know I've sound stupid before, but I don't want to like really sound stupid.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: I know, but I don't want to like lose the credibility.
15:06
SPEAKER_01: So I did take this research really seriously, and um between, you know, articles and a few books.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:15
SPEAKER_01: I didn't read the whole book, but I read the important chapters of the book.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: That's what's fun about preparing for these episodes too, is that you know, when we do compare our notes, it's very it balances each other out because we find obviously the same like main findings, and then we add like our own individual little pieces of flair.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: So it's really fun reviewing these notes together because we like again, it's like it's like you comb through everything together, and it's very reassuring to know, like, oh yeah, all these things I studied, you learned too, and I'm not just like like flying about blindly.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: The Wikipedia change did not update between you reading it and me reading it.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: Good sign.
15:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, correct.
15:50
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we'll say things and we're like, yeah, it's Wikipedia, it's fine.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: Wikipedia's great, by the way.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: I don't don't know.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so Socrates was a philosopher.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: Let's kick it off, Megan.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, and she means that in a very deep philosophical way.
16:08
SPEAKER_01: Sophisticated philosopher.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll start his early life.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: You can chime in in a little bit.
16:15
SPEAKER_01: I know about the death.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so um, like all of our, you know, more historical, and obviously these are also historical executions, but like our more ancient um executions, th things are kind of uh rough in terms of timeline.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: So we think that Socrates was born between 471 and 468 BC.
16:34
SPEAKER_00: Remember, it's BC, so we're going backwards.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Um so he was born in Alopeki, we think that's how it's pronounced.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: I took modern Greek, so again, don't like hate me for my pronunciation.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm doing my best.
16:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, but his father was a stonemason uh and a sculptor.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: His mother was a midwife.
16:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh and when he was young, he married.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm not even gonna try to pronounce her name.
16:55
SPEAKER_00: I know what the Megan's looking like, I'm gonna do it.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Hold on, wait for it.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: Show me the name.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: I can't read your writing.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: I know you can't read my handwriting.
17:04
SPEAKER_01: Xanthi.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Exanthey.
17:06
SPEAKER_00: Exanthepe.
17:07
SPEAKER_00: She was a a flair.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: Apparently well known.
17:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well known for her bitchiness.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: So good job, Socrates.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: He was also not super pleasant to most.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: He was calm.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: He was calm and he she was kind of like the uh fiery one, and he would meet her with calmness and kindness.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like in an argument, that's what frustrates me more when the other person is super calm.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: They're like, but tell me why do you feel that way?
17:33
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that was Socrates and Xanthope.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, I could totally see that.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: I kind of like that name, it's growing on me.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Xanthope.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: Xanthope.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know if we're saying it right, but it looks right.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: I like the way we're pronouncing it.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: Xanthope.
17:45
SPEAKER_00: So they had three sons together.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, but like Megan said, he was very much like a calm, collected guy.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, he's a philosopher, so he's very, you know, deep and profound with everything that he says in terms of like uh his rebuttals for arguments.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: Uh but he is also kind of an asshole.
18:02
SPEAKER_00: He's very pompous.
18:04
SPEAKER_00: He's very, oh, just I'm wiser than everyone because I acknowledge my ignorance and everything type of person.
18:11
SPEAKER_00: So automatically he's better than you because he has this truth.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's kind of where he's starting from.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Um he they say that in his younger years he also kind of messed with stonework as well from his father's trade.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, he also has like a military experience, so he fought in several wars um for Athens on behalf of Athens.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Um but what he loved to do most of all was he liked to go to the local um agora that's essentially like a meeting place, like a marketplace where people would go.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: It's a central public area where they could go and just hang out, talk to each other, spout their ideals, and this is where a lot of um you know philosophy is founded in these places because they people have so much free time to, you know, they're in a central uh generally like peaceful time in history where they're just allowed to be and to talk and to talk about their ideas and you know, utopian society or whatever they had to talk about.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: So this was his favorite thing to do, you know, aside from the early stonework and the military bits, he just loved to be there and hear himself talk because that's essentially who he was.
19:11
SPEAKER_01: And he was a teacher, so yeah, he actually never had any written work, which I thought was interesting.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: I never knew that before researching for this.
19:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I took like a philosophy class in community college.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: Oh in not in Athens.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: We don't say the CC word on this podcast.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: I was really proud.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: I went to Orange Coast College.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
19:29
SPEAKER_01: I was really proud of him.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm just kidding.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, no, I just kind of assumed that he had books and his own writings, but no, he never actually had written work, but he was a well-known teacher in his society, so he had a lot of young pupils, one of them being Plato, was probably one of his most well-known.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: You might have heard of him.
19:49
SPEAKER_01: Might have heard of him.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: I've heard of him.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: And he was really seen as like, at first in his society, he was seen as again like this wise intellectual.
20:00
SPEAKER_01: Um, but he was also a critic.
20:02
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: And his whole philosophy on things was question everything.
20:09
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like, I don't know, my husband always says, it never hurts to ask.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know, when he's asking for like his coupon codes and discounts all the time.
20:16
SPEAKER_01: He goes, It never hurts to ask.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: And like that's what made me think of like Socrates, like, just ask, question everything.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: When we we'll actually get into this later, it's funny you touched on that.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, but one of his uh principles that he talked about near his death, um, which Plato describes later, is that it's called the argument of recollection.
20:34
SPEAKER_00: And essentially what this means is when we are like before we're born, we have all of the knowledge we could possibly possess.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: And then when we're born, like that it's not a race, but it's just like hibernating.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: So you're born with all the knowledge you have, and then you have to discover it through recollection.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: So you have to remember it as you get older.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: And the only way to do that is by asking questions.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: So it's actually funny that you brought that up because it's like a like uh Socratic um, you know, theory where he was like, Oh, you you were already born with everything, you just have to recall it.
21:04
SPEAKER_00: You have to remember the information.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: It's so deep.
21:07
SPEAKER_00: It is, and we'll and again, we're not gonna make this too profound or so philosophical.
21:11
SPEAKER_00: Both me, death and execution.
21:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, during the death and execution, we're gonna layer in a few of his last um four arguments uh that he laid out, but that was one of them.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: So it's funny that you kind of brought that up already.
21:22
SPEAKER_01: Megan's actually that was actually inside me, and I used that method just then.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Um so he was a critic, and it's funny because he lived in Athens, but he was also very critical of Athens.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: So he was very critical of their judiciary setup and of their religion and of their leaders.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: And he was just kind of like I think of it as like the um like the the homeowners association meetings, and there's always like the one guy.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: I feel like we brought up the homeowner several times.
21:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm now a homeowner, so I can relate.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's like Hey bro, like you chose to live here.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: You don't have to live here, but yet he keeps going to the meetings and like arguing about everything and not agreeing with anything and questioning, like, well, why do you have to have this paint color?
22:12
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, what about a blue?
22:14
SPEAKER_01: So he was kind of starting to get under under people's skin a little bit, and the citizens were starting to get irritated with him.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:23
SPEAKER_01: And really, though, what also played into all of this was the Peloponnesian War.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Peloponnesian?
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Peloponnesian.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: You said it right.
22:32
SPEAKER_01: I said it right.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay, good job.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: He had a funny look that I thought I said something wrong.
22:35
SPEAKER_01: No, good job.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, Peloponnesian War was taking place, and Athens was defeated by Sparta.
22:41
SPEAKER_01: Right.
22:42
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, at this point, Socrates made it pretty clear that while he lives in Athens, he doesn't like Athens, he doesn't like the Athenians, and they started to see him as an enemy of their society.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: Right, yeah.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: And obviously Sparta was a huge rival.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
22:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're very military-based, they're very dominant, they're very into power.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: So when you're like, you know, shy little Athens who's all into poetry and democracy and all these things.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Naked people, right, art.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, so so they're the antithesis of everything you are.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: So when he's somewhat pro-Sparta and anti-Athens, you're immediately like, what are you doing here, bud?
23:20
SPEAKER_01: And you know what I thought was funny too was another one of um Socrates' philosophies of life.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: I I feel like it's ironic saying philosophies as a philosopher.
23:29
SPEAKER_01: How many times are we gonna say a lie?
23:31
SPEAKER_01: Philosophy, philosopher.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: Anyways, moving on.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, he actually believed in like good morals and forgiveness, while the trend of ancient civilizations, and mind you, this was like before the Bible, this was before God and having like a written code of how to be a good person.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: Though it was after Ramses III, true, it was after Ramses III.
23:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, but they like it was the normal thinking of ancient civilization to be more revengeful and mighty, mighty and not forgive, and we must fight and we must hate them.
24:04
SPEAKER_01: So that also kind of pissed him off that Socrates is like, no, no, my good people, peace and forgiveness.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Stay calm when you fight with your wife.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: That type of Xanthi.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: What's her name?
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Xanthope.
24:15
SPEAKER_00: Xanthope.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, we also uh like saw some records.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: So in Plato's Apology, one of his works, um, he describes uh Socrates as something called a gadfly.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: And a gadfly basically means that he's someone that kind of goes around like challenging everyone's wisdom.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Like he's basically saying that he's like on this pursuit of justice and goodness and he's uh better than everyone around him.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: So one thing that um Plato says in his Apology uh is that there's this young person, uh, this friend who goes to the oracle at Delphi.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: And if you don't know what like an oracle is in ancient Greece, it's essentially like the sacred place that you go and you converse with like a young woman.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: Um usually it's like a beautiful woman from the village and typically she's drunk or under some sort of influence.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't know any of this.
25:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you didn't?
25:07
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm learning this for the first time.
25:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is um so you they had several sacred spots like in ancient Greece where they again, they just like if you were an attractive woman from a local village, they would take you to the Megan, you're gonna be the oracle.
25:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm normally drunk.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: And they she's normally drunk anyway.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna throw her on this rock.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna throw her on this rock and she's gonna kind of sit there and like you know Do I have long hair?
25:30
SPEAKER_00: Sure, yeah, you have beautiful flowing long hair.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: My mermaid?
25:34
SPEAKER_00: You're not a mermaid because you're on a rock in the mountains.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, so but but people venture to you and they ask you questions.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: And at Delphi, there's literally this like rock where there's I don't know if there's a hole naturally in the rock or a hole that was carved, but the the oracle would sit on the other side of the hole and you would sit on one side, the other side, and you it's like uh Cathol like um Catholic church, like confession.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you're not going there to confess, you're going there to learn about your future.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, okay, like expecting answers from the oracle.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: So you go to the oracle and you say, you know, Oracle, like I'm having money problems, or my goats are dying, or when will I find a wife, or whatever your questions are.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: And this oracle who's drunk and crazy speaks to you and she tells you all the things you need to know.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: In Plato's Apology, he wrote that this person went to the Del the Oracle of Delphi and they asked, they said, Okay, of everyone in the land, who is wiser than Socrates?
26:27
SPEAKER_00: And the Oracle responded, No one in the land is wiser than Socrates.
26:32
SPEAKER_00: So this got back to Socrates himself.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Of course, who has obviously, you know, a low opinion of himself.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: No, he was very pompous.
26:39
SPEAKER_00: So he immediately was like, Oh, I'm the wisest in the land.
26:43
SPEAKER_00: So he would start challenging people in terms of wits and in terms of like, you know, intellectual discussions.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: So he would start going up to certain politicians or well-known figures in society, and he'd be like, Oh, tell me about your politics, tell me about your beliefs, tell me about this.
26:57
SPEAKER_00: And people were usually caught off guard and they tried to like defend themselves as best as they could, being like, Oh, well, I know a lot about this and I can speak about this forever.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the conversations, he would like punk you, where he was like, actually, the wisest man in the room is someone who acknowledges his ignorance.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: And though, yeah, and then he- I feel like this is the guy I don't like, like the guy in the office that you're like, just shut up.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Castle at parties, so you're like, nobody wants to talk to you.
27:22
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel bad saying this.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: I don't know Socrates personally, he seems to have a good reputation, people seem to like him.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm just very judgmental of these stories I'm hearing of him.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that didn't fly with a lot of people in town because all of a sudden he's going around trying to prove himself to these people.
27:38
SPEAKER_00: And again, in his philosophical way, he wasn't trying to outwit you or battle you in a discussion.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: He wanted to prove that actually, because of my ignorance, I am on a different level.
27:49
SPEAKER_00: Very tricky.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: So, lo and behold, he made enemies.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: Weird.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: Weird enough.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: So, and now they're starting to blame him for why Athens was defeated by Sparta.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Because he's so big and wise and has these pupils now.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and now he has a bit of a youthful following of all of his pupils.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, so people are starting to want him out, and there was also really quick, there's also a plague going on, too.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there was.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: There were several things.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: There was like some internal strife.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: There was the defeat by Sparta, there was the plague.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: No, they were a little bit down in the dumps.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: They needed they needed a good outlet to like let off some steam.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Um so in Athenian society, you know, they believe that these gods are protecting them.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: You know, they're um what was it, polygamous?
28:36
SPEAKER_00: That's not the word.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: No, that's when you have multiple times.
28:39
SPEAKER_01: What is it called when you're multiple?
28:41
SPEAKER_01: Um my gosh, I know this.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Um poly pol Polyanimus.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: That means you turn into multiple animals.
28:50
SPEAKER_00: Multiple God reminds me.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Looking it up to we should know this.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: Um polytheist.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, polytheist.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Say it again.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Polytheist.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Polytheism.
29:03
unknown: Polytheism.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Um So polytheism is when you believe in multiple gods.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: If you're and you're a polytheist, almost like a polygamist, I don't know.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: Close.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: Close enough.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: Tomato tomato.
29:16
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um, so they're polytheist, and so they think like, you know, and all the like all their different gods are protecting them in different ways.
29:23
SPEAKER_00: So the only reason for all of their strife is obviously the gods are unhappy with them.
29:29
SPEAKER_00: And they think, why are they unhappy with us?
29:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh, because we have these undesirables of society who are going to get rid of them, you know, speaking poorly about Athens.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: So the crimes that Socrates was actually accused of was corrupting minds of the young youths in Athens and impiety.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: Right.
29:48
SPEAKER_01: Which was not believing in the gods.
29:50
SPEAKER_00: Right, refusing to recognize the gods.
29:51
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: So uh so in this day and age, obviously, democracy was very different.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: Like, even though we say, like, oh, Greeks founded modern democracy, it wasn't quite what we know as modern democracy.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: So what they did was essentially they had a jury of 501, obviously in the one to break the tie.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: Smart people.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: Those Athens, those Athenians.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: Athenians, I keep calling them those Athens.
30:15
SPEAKER_00: Those Athens.
30:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, so they uh they had this um jury of 501 people, just normal citizens, and what would happen was uh the people that were presenting the case, the prosecutors had three hours to essentially present everything, and then the defendant, the person who was defending themselves, would have three hours to say their piece and defend.
30:36
SPEAKER_01: So what I thought was so funny and interesting was the way that they timed the three hours for the defense and the what what what do you call the other prosecutor?
30:47
SPEAKER_01: But not really because so they didn't have like a trained judge or lawyer, yeah.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: They had none of them.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: It was just the citizens, they were just amateurs going up and being like, I hate this guy, and here's why.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: So Socrates had to defend himself and give his own speech, and the people prosecuted per se in their own way, but so as Elizabeth said, they each had three hours, and the way that they timed that was through these water jugs.
31:13
SPEAKER_01: It was kind of like a fountain, and I like to think of it as those um kind of cool like garden fountains you see of like the Badilby.
31:21
SPEAKER_01: They have like the mugs and they're kind of like toppled over each other, just like you know, eclectically thrown about, and the water trickles through one to the next.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: It's very like 90s look, I feel they're relaxing.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: I want one.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what they used.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: It's kind of like a water version of um an hourglass.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Like a yeah, a stand in an hourglass.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, so they kind of similar to what we have is they did have a random jury of just regular citizens that you lived alongside.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: Right.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, he had no lawyer.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Um he wasn't I mean, actually, if if anyone could defend himself would be a philosopher, but um uh, you know, but his uh pompous nature kind of got him in the end.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the trial was held in Athens Central Marketplace, and it was outside and it was very hot, so they were just under a canopy, and um yeah, it just seems like such a casual, like just outside under a canopy.
32:23
SPEAKER_00: Okay, here's our court.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, essentially the people that were presenting the case basically said that, you know, he's criticizing Athenian politicians, he's against our common good, um, he's j he's challenging the status quo.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: Essentially, it was just him saying, or the the prosecutor saying that he is not with the community, that he's against the community.
32:45
SPEAKER_00: And at this time, democracy is all about the common good and the common goals of society, and then he was you know directly opposed to that.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: And he was completely stubborn very the entire trial.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, like through everyone.
32:57
SPEAKER_00: We should also mention that at this point he's 70 years old.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: He's also 70.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm in the sense I kind of like him at this point, just like, oh man, like what's the worst that's gonna happen?
33:09
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna run my mouth off and kind of be the snarky ass I'm used to being.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: He was very stubborn.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: Um, he is 70 at this point, and uh when he went to this court, um what they did to determine uh after the prosecutors had presented their case and Socrates had three hours to defend himself, what they did was they literally, each member of the jury had discs that they would put into two separate urns.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: So there was a guilty urn and a not guilty urn.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: There's no deliberation by the jury, they don't meet, they don't discuss.
33:40
SPEAKER_00: It's like survivor.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like so over there.
33:44
SPEAKER_01: There's a camera, and they're like, I think Socrates should stay.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: He's kind of a cool guy, he's got a cool beard.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: I don't know, he could be a cool teacher, and then the next guy is like, this Socrates guy has got to go.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: This Socrates guy has told me that the ignorant man is the smartest man.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: What?
34:01
SPEAKER_00: And then they then they put their little discs in the appropriate urns, and so Socrates was found guilty.
34:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, 280 to 220.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: So 280 people said yes, he's guilty.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: But at this point, they still don't know his like sentence or what is exactly gonna happen to him.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: So they they at this point they kind of ask him, like, okay, Socrates, like we found you guilty.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: What do you think your crime should or your punishment should be?
34:27
SPEAKER_00: And he's an assistant.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: He's just such a jerk.
34:29
SPEAKER_01: He's like, actually, all of my questioning has done nothing but improve your city.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: In fact, you should be thanking me for what I've done for you.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: He's like, I think I should get a free dinner every single night for the rest of my days.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: And like of like a large sum of money.
34:47
SPEAKER_01: He's just kind of like playing with them at this point, like, okay, you think I'm guilty?
34:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, I deserve to be treated like a god than myself.
34:57
SPEAKER_00: And then he kind of realizes that people aren't loving his joke.
35:00
SPEAKER_00: And so he was like, Okay, I'll pay a small fine.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: And so that's his like lesser.
35:06
SPEAKER_00: Alright, alright.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: I get where you guys are going.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: Makes me think he's like ultimate like salesperson because that's like such a sales tactic to be like, hey, you know what?
35:14
SPEAKER_00: This is only a thousand dollars today.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: And then the person cringes and they're like, but for you it's 500.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, like it's like, okay, but this is what I'll actually do for you.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: So he's like, Oh no, no, no, I'll pay some money.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: And they're just like, and then Oh, you're missing the point.
35:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: They're like, you don't get it, dude.
35:29
SPEAKER_00: We don't want you alive.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: So then they have to decide whether or not they're gonna give him the death penalty.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: And this is a really I hate to say funny part because it's his death.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: It's all a little bit funny, but it's kind of funny.
35:39
SPEAKER_00: So what they do is they now vote to whether or not to give Socrates the death penalty.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: And so the people that voted yes, he should be sentenced to death, was more than the majority who voted that he was guilty.
35:53
SPEAKER_00: So 220 people um said, Oh, he's innocent, like, no, no, we're not gonna do this.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: And more than 220 said, Yeah, give him the freaking chair.
36:03
SPEAKER_01: I think his little speech afterwards actually convinced people, like, you know what?
36:08
SPEAKER_01: I actually don't really like this guy.
36:09
SPEAKER_01: I thought he was kind of funny at first, now he's kind of mocking my city.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:13
SPEAKER_01: And I am gonna change sides here.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know what?
36:16
SPEAKER_00: Innocent, but he needs to die.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: And scholars think, like, if he would have just gone up and said, Okay, I was wrong.
36:24
SPEAKER_00: Just apologize.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: I apologize, I didn't mean to offend the city, just exile me, and that's my like form of punishment, then they would have just been like, Great, okay, you're guilty, you're exiled, go.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: But instead, he was such an asshole that they're like, oh my god, okay, we're sending you away forever.
36:41
SPEAKER_01: And at this point in ancient Greece, the traditional form of execution is actually death by poison.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
36:49
SPEAKER_01: It was called hemlock, and it's a plant.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: A plant.
36:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's actually, I did a little bit of research on this plant.
36:56
SPEAKER_01: It's basically it kind of acted like a lethal injection, but it's um a plant that you can find in like you said, North Africa.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it is it was more in like dark, shady places you could find it, but um, it's very toxic.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: It's very specific.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: Dark, shady places in the world.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: Back alleys.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: As I'm trying to read my notes, because I think I wrote down a place, but I guess I knew.
37:22
SPEAKER_01: No, I think you told me North Africa, and yeah, like if you said Crete, like certain parts of the.
37:25
SPEAKER_01: Crete was one which is why the Greeks would use it.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: Good memory.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
37:29
SPEAKER_01: Um I try.
37:30
SPEAKER_01: And they would make it into a tea, and it was a very toxic tea that basically acts like a lethal injection.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: Right.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so this was the regular way to die, which kind of going back to um our episode on the Egyptians, a little bit similar, kind of like a forced suicide because there's no axe, there's no hanging, there's no blood.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: It was the the guilty person had to drink it on their own and kill themselves.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, so when um it's funny because Plato wrote a whole account of this death, but he wasn't actually there.
38:08
SPEAKER_00: So the only two pupils that were there, and I again I might say these names wrong, but it was um Critias and Credo.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, Credo was a character in a book, but I think it was based on the person Critius.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then Alcibedi Alcibidias, isn't it?
38:24
SPEAKER_00: If I'm saying that right.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: That sounds right.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, so these were his two uh pupils that were there, which by the way, they were like terrible in their own right.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: They tried to over overthrow the government twice.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: But he had a lot of friends, and even while he was in prison and in jail, he had a lot of friends, and a lot of them were his pupils, like Plato.
38:43
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and but they were um a bit of high society, and I love this.
38:48
SPEAKER_01: They actually were able to bribe the guard to release not release, but let him escape.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: Um they look the other way.
38:58
SPEAKER_01: They bribed the guard to let him escape, and I love this because they're like, okay, Socrates, doors open, here's the keys.
39:05
SPEAKER_01: He's going to the bathroom.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: Middle of the night.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, guard is totally on our page, he's cool with this.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: And Socrates, of course, being his asshole.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: Socrates said no, no, he denied the escape.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: Um, and there were four reasons that philosophers talk about modern-day philosophers um who study Socrates on why he refused to escape.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: He could have ran out and been free and lived the rest of his five years because it was ancient Greece and he's already 70 years old.
39:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, but he had four reasons.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: Do you want me to go through those?
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually.
39:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, the first was by escaping, it's indicating that he actually fears death.
39:48
SPEAKER_01: And Socrates is one of his whole morals in life is you know, he was very interested in knowing like where does the soul, does the soul depart the body when you die?
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Right.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: And who's our creator, and very deep questions.
40:03
SPEAKER_00: And he wanted to essentially see his soul and his body as separate.
40:06
SPEAKER_00: So he spent his whole life kind of detaching his soul from his body.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and by escaping death is showing that he's afraid of death when all this time he's been saying, no, death brings peace and your soul, and um, it kind of just goes against everything that he ever stood for.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, it also by escaping, um, he basically couldn't go to another country and it wouldn't be any better.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of a funny remark.
40:34
SPEAKER_00: He's like, also, if I went anywhere else, they would hate me too.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, basically, everyone kind of hates me.
40:39
SPEAKER_01: So teaching anywhere else wouldn't prove to be better for him.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: So, really, what was the point?
40:45
SPEAKER_01: He could just run into the same situation again.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: Which is funny because it's also so like unforgiving.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, I'm an asshole here, I'm an asshole everywhere, I'm not gonna change my ways.
40:54
SPEAKER_00: Like, it's like he's gonna be old man and go and be peaceful in another city.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: He's gonna go and just be like, learn from his ways.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: I'm in Thessaloniki and I hate Thessaloniki.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: That's it, that's how he would be.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: Y'all need a new government, y'all need a new religion.
41:08
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, the third reason why he didn't want to escape prison was it would break his the social contract, that another firm belief that he stood against.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, so he really believed he lives in the city, he's he abides by these laws.
41:24
SPEAKER_01: He was accused and judged guilty of breaking these laws, and it was his own social contract to follow through on the verdict that was given to him.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: Um again, he'd kind of be a hypocrite by saying he believed in the social structure of the city, and he's like, Well, I have to follow it, and again, just being hypocritical on what his morals were.
41:47
SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it was necessarily like Athenian society because he was so critical of that.
41:50
SPEAKER_00: He's not saying, like, I agree with Athenians, so I'm gonna fall in line in line with their law.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: He's just saying any law is a social contract between its citizen and its government.
41:59
SPEAKER_00: So in that way, he was like, Yeah, I know I kind of hate Athens, and I'm talking bad about it, but at the same time, I'm still an Athenian, and this is my like civic duty, essentially.
42:08
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the last reason is pretty straightforward.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: His friends would be liable and then they would go after them.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: So he was just being self-nice guy, caring about his friends.
42:17
SPEAKER_00: So nice.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, so so yeah, so at this point he decides, no, he's not going to escape.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and going back to my original point of that Plato had written out everything that he like saw during this execution, was apparently when he was ready to finally drink the tea, um, drink the hemlock, he had said, Well, like, what do I do with this?
42:37
SPEAKER_00: And they said, Just drink it and walk around until your legs are heavy and then lie down.
42:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, before he drank it, so we're at the day of the execution, which is like his own execution.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: He also said, I love this, he said, It's time I took my bath because he wanted a bath before death, so that the women who had to clean his dead corpse afterwards, it would be a nice pleasant experience.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: A nice clean dead corpse.
43:03
SPEAKER_01: So he first took a bath, prepares himself, and then he has all of his friends around him while he's drinking the hemlock, like as as you just described, like lay down and again, really quick.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: This is all according to Plato, who was not there.
43:17
SPEAKER_00: This could be a very poetic rendition of everything that I like this rendition.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: It is nice.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: And if I had to be executed, I want all of my friends, which would be you and two other people, maybe, and lay down and have some tea.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: It's lovely.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: Take a bath.
43:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, all of his friends broke down and they were all crying and they were weeping.
43:38
SPEAKER_01: But Socrates said, Calm yourselves and be brave.
43:41
SPEAKER_01: Again, he's not afraid of death.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: He even like kind of quipped, like, Well, I sent the women away so they wouldn't act like this.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: And here you here you guys are like making ahead of yourself.
43:53
SPEAKER_01: Those low blows until the very end.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, okay, so then he drinks the hemlock.
43:57
SPEAKER_01: And what the hemlock actually does is it Is it basically paralyzes the central nervous system?
44:04
SPEAKER_01: Right.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: So it starts at your feet and it works its way up.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: So your feet start going numb.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: And he started walking around like he was told to do.
44:13
SPEAKER_01: And the like I'm gonna say quote unquote executioner.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: There wasn't actually an executioner, just an overseer.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: Overseer of making sure he drank it, um, would pinch his feet to see if they were numb, and he's like, Yep, it's numb.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: Yep, my legs are numb.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: Yep, my my knees are numb.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: When I drink wine, that's how it starts.
44:31
SPEAKER_00: It starts in my feet.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:33
SPEAKER_01: Now they come luck every time.
44:35
SPEAKER_00: They get relaxed first and it works its way up.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: That sounds peaceful.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: It's nice.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: Um and then he lays down and he actually, I saw in in one version, he he covers his face.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then once the numbness starts hitting his hip, so once it gets to his heart, that's when he dies.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: Um so at this point it's at his hips.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: And he's his he's saying some other things.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: There's some other quotes as he's dying.
45:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, one of them being, all of philosophy is training for death.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: But there's one very well-known.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I assume it's well-known.
45:14
SPEAKER_01: I just learned of it, but it was in a lot of places people knew about this, was his final words, which is a little funny to me.
45:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the last words were great.
45:22
SPEAKER_00: You can uh say there's different interpretations because it's obviously ancient Greek.
45:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but go ahead.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, different translations, but one version is Credo.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: Kredo is one of the dudes who's there.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: Credo! We owe a cock to Asclepi Oh Asclepius?
45:38
SPEAKER_01: Asclepius.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: Okay, let me start over.
45:40
SPEAKER_01: Credo, we owe a cock to Asclepius.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: Do pay it.
45:44
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget.
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, some people say we owe a rooster.
45:48
SPEAKER_00: So a rooster, a cock, a bird.
45:51
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was code for something, a little punny play on words.
45:55
SPEAKER_01: You think it was like like that's just like a funny, like, out of all the things, the thing you're thinking of is you owe someone a rooster, can you please pay him back?
46:02
SPEAKER_01: Is that really the your last words that you think of?
46:05
SPEAKER_00: There's several theories.
46:05
SPEAKER_00: Maybe like hemlock is like a great mental clarity drug.
46:09
SPEAKER_00: Like, even though it's He thinks of his errands and things he forgot.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: It's like it's like it's it's shutting down your central nervous system, but maybe you get some like fiery synapses at the end that kind of tell your brain, like, oh my gosh, we forgot about this, and you're you left the oven on kind of thing.
46:21
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's like, oh wait, hallucinating.
46:24
SPEAKER_01: Maybe he's just like saying stupid things, like when you're you have a fever and you're just saying nonsense.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: I personally think it's a code for something.
46:32
SPEAKER_00: He's like, Okay, so when I die, I'm gonna tell you.
46:36
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like the game clue.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: It's like who to kill with what instrument where, and he's like, and this means this and that means that.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: So he's like, Okay, we owe a rooster.
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Got it?
46:46
SPEAKER_00: You understand what I'm saying?
46:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay, we owe a rooster to Ascyclippi.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: I already said it wrong.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: Asclepius.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: Asclepius.
46:54
SPEAKER_00: We owe it to Asclepius.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: Don't forget I pay him the debt.
46:58
SPEAKER_00: Like all of it had a meaning.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, and now I didn't do this part.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: I want to know more about Asclepius, who he is, and did he ever get his rooster?
47:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, this says Asclepius.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: Wait, whoa.
47:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, listen to this.
47:11
SPEAKER_00: Interesting the story.
47:13
SPEAKER_00: Or Hepius is a hero and god of medicine in ancient Greek religion and mythology.
47:18
SPEAKER_00: He was a god.
47:20
SPEAKER_00: He is the son of Apollo and Coron um Coronus.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's see.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: He represents a healing aspect of medical arts.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of interesting because I feel like I failed on my research because I really didn't look deeper into that line.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: But that's a big deal.
47:35
SPEAKER_01: That is a big deal.
47:36
SPEAKER_01: Okay, maybe we do have follow-up.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Okay, follow-up for next episode.
47:40
SPEAKER_01: We'll get a little bit more into what that means.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: Ooh, I like it.
47:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, because just wrapping up his execution, he dies after he says this.
47:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, and good night.
47:53
SPEAKER_00: And um I did want to like touch on just four things that Plato had mentioned that were really important during the death of Socrates.
48:01
SPEAKER_00: Because, like I said, we're not getting super philosophical in this episode, but I do think it wouldn't be fair to like uh say nothing about his um philosophies.
48:09
SPEAKER_00: So there's four things that he wanted to like have it be known when he died, and they're essentially they're called arguments.
48:16
SPEAKER_00: Um so essentially these arguments are the argument of opposites, the argument of recollection, the argument of affinity, and the argument of forms.
48:25
SPEAKER_00: So just to give you like a quick little rundown of what each of these are, is uh and they're all involving the soul in the afterlife.
48:33
SPEAKER_00: So the first argument, the argument of opposites, is basically saying that, and the instance that they they use often is like um a tall man only becomes tall because he was short before.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: So basically they're saying like in the cycle of life, things are always in the cycle of their one way or another.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: So he's saying that, well, because I am alive, of course I'm going to be dead.
48:57
SPEAKER_00: But that doesn't mean like my soul is dead because it's on this ongoing cycle.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: So his weird philosophy of um argument of opposites just means that, well, yes, I'm going to die because I was just living.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: So that's his whole first philosophy of it's okay that I'm dying.
49:12
SPEAKER_00: The second was um the thing we talked about before, the theory of recollection or the form um the argument of recollection.
49:19
SPEAKER_00: So this is essentially saying that again, before we're even born, we already have all the knowledge that we're going to possess.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: And our whole life is this journey of recollection.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: So we're just trying to remember things that we already know.
49:32
SPEAKER_00: And we do that, like Megan's husband said, through asking questions.
49:36
SPEAKER_00: There's no other way to like get the knowledge other than just be like, oh, okay, so I should already know this.
49:41
SPEAKER_00: Remind me of this.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: What is this again?
49:42
SPEAKER_00: Explain this one more time.
49:44
SPEAKER_00: And when you do that as a human, like you're getting pieces of your soul back to you and pieces of your memory back to you.
49:49
SPEAKER_00: Um, thus, again, proving that the soul is eternal and that you had this knowledge before you were even born.
49:56
SPEAKER_00: Again, we're getting pretty profound here, but only two more, I promise.
49:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, so then the uh the third is the argument of affinity, and this is similar to uh the argument of opposites, but it's basically saying that uh everything is immaterial versus material.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: So it's saying that there's a distinction between the things that you don't see, the intangibles, the immortal, and the things you do see, the things that are perishable.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: So it's saying like the body is the second kind, the the body is perishable, it's material, and then everything else falls into the immaterial kind.
50:32
SPEAKER_00: So basically, again, just kind of acknowledging that these things are again opposite, that they're cyclical, that for every yin y there's a yang type of thing.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: Um so splitting up the body and the soul further.
50:44
SPEAKER_00: And then the last one is just the argument of forms, and he calls it the form of life, and that is basically saying all of these things add up to your soul is eternal.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: So the form of life is just saying that this is your soul, it's eternal, it does not die.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: So those were the big like four things that Socrates wants to take away from his death that Plato writes down for him about his death.
51:06
SPEAKER_00: Um again, I know we didn't want to go like too heavy with all the philosophical stuff.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: Megan's falling asleep.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: What?
51:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, good morning.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: Oh, hi.
51:14
SPEAKER_00: Hi, it's Megan.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's hi, it's Megan.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: We're here again.
51:16
SPEAKER_01: Um that's I'm glad that you dived into all of that.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: I I personally I love you.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: I think you love philosophy, and I'm not, again, an expert by any means, but I just like talking about it.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's important to at least acknowledge like spinoff show, Elizabeth's philosophy.
51:31
SPEAKER_00: Join me in my separate podcast.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: Um there, and now the jail still exists.
51:42
SPEAKER_01: The jail still exists.
51:44
SPEAKER_01: The things I get excited over.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: Back to the the material world, good segue.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: Yes, now back into our human selves.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: Yes, we are grounded again.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, the jail that Socrates was held at is still in existence, and you can go see it.
52:02
SPEAKER_00: It makes me so, so, so angry because when Megan told me that, she's like, oh, you can still visit his jail cell.
52:08
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I would have seen that when I was in Greece.
52:11
SPEAKER_00: She didn't believe me.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: I didn't believe you.
52:13
SPEAKER_00: I was like, nah, I don't think you're right.
52:14
SPEAKER_00: But we looked it up and we're like, oh man, it literally is right next to the freaking Acropolis where I lived.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: I didn't live in the Acropolis, that would be really cool.
52:21
SPEAKER_00: I lived near the Acropolis in Pangrati, if everyone knows if anyone knows where that is.
52:26
SPEAKER_00: Ooh, I sound like Elena this episode.
52:27
SPEAKER_00: Like I know my pronunciation a little bit more.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I lived in Pangrati, and it was again right next to Kalimarano Stadium.
52:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, and like Placa is essentially the area where the Acropolis is, and it's right there, and I didn't know about it at all, and now we have to go back.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna take you to Versailles, I'm gonna take you to school, I've been all over the place.
52:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna take you to Greece.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: You know, we got big plans in the future.
52:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, that's the story of Socrates.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, in the end, I definitely Greek hero, philosopher of I mean, people just know like Socratic method, and everybody at some point, hopefully, I shouldn't say everybody.
53:03
SPEAKER_01: Tell me about the Socratic method, Megan.
53:06
SPEAKER_01: Forgiveness.
53:07
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you're good.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:09
SPEAKER_01: Something.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
53:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a bust on him.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: There's a portrait.
53:13
SPEAKER_01: But there's the there's the portrait.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: I've also seen the bust at the Louvre in Paris.
53:18
SPEAKER_00: Look at you.
53:20
SPEAKER_00: Can't have humble brag.
53:23
SPEAKER_01: Um and then there's that famous portrait of the death of Socrates from what is it, 1787?
53:28
SPEAKER_01: And it's that famous portrait of him with his finger up in the air and all of his friends are weeping and his cool portrait, actually.
53:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: Did you see that in person too?
53:37
SPEAKER_01: I did not.
53:38
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
53:38
SPEAKER_01: Where is it?
53:39
SPEAKER_01: Oh, you didn't.
53:41
SPEAKER_01: Sorry being a brat.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: It wasn't at the Louvre the Muse Dorsey, so I couldn't tell you.
53:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
53:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, with all of that said, now that we're both a little bit fired up here, I feel like our segment for this evening or today, um, should be a if the death fits the punishment.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: That's not what it's called.
54:02
SPEAKER_00: What's it called?
54:04
SPEAKER_00: You said to have real confident, though.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: Um it's called If the Punishment Hits the or Sorry.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: Damn it, Megan.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: It's called The Punishment Fits the Crime.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: What she said.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: What did I say the death fits the crime?
54:17
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what you're doing over there.
54:19
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
54:20
SPEAKER_01: For those of you who do not know what the heck we're talking about.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: Last time we got a little ranty.
54:26
SPEAKER_01: We didn't mean to do that.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: I got real ranty.
54:29
SPEAKER_01: I didn't think Elizabeth's also a very dark person.
54:31
SPEAKER_00: So oh my god, let's let's kill this myth that I'm dark and I'm not mean and I love love and happiness and whatever.
54:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
54:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, you've really got me convinced.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: So this is for modern day quote unquote social crimes.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
54:49
SPEAKER_00: What should the punishment be for those who commit them?
54:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: When you see something that you hate in society and you're like, oh my goodness, like I just I can't believe that.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: What would you do to these people?
54:58
SPEAKER_01: I've thought about this all day because it happened to me this morning.
55:01
SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
55:02
SPEAKER_01: I am like a very, I would like to say I'm an in-tune driver.
55:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm very aware of what's happening.
55:09
SPEAKER_01: I am very cautious.
55:11
SPEAKER_01: I don't just like mosey around.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm safe, but yet I'm on a mission.
55:17
SPEAKER_01: Some might say I'm I'm fast.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: But I'm I've driven with you.
55:25
SPEAKER_01: But I'm also like aware of what's happening, and nothing bugs me more than I am the first person at the at the stoplight.
55:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:35
SPEAKER_01: And it turns green.
55:37
SPEAKER_01: And give me two seconds.
55:39
SPEAKER_01: I like barely lift my foot off the brake, and the guy behind me or lady is honky.
55:45
SPEAKER_01: Is honky.
55:45
SPEAKER_01: Like that little like honk, like, okay, I I know I have eyes and I'm watching.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Ma'am, I'm not kind of I'm not gonna slam on my gas, like right when I go, I'm gonna lift my foot off and then take off.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: Those people are the worst.
55:58
SPEAKER_01: And just impatient people like that.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: Or like when you're I know I'm going.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: You're like, I'm watching the light the same as you, like at the same reaction time.
56:05
SPEAKER_01: I also want to move.
56:06
SPEAKER_01: I also want to get to my destination.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying my best here.
56:09
SPEAKER_01: But like when they do that, it just makes me want to go slower.
56:12
SPEAKER_01: And then, oh, I am going the speed limit, if not five below.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: Below.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:18
SPEAKER_01: And then I just love it when they speed up around me, and then we get to the next red light, and then we're just side by side.
56:24
SPEAKER_01: Same position.
56:25
SPEAKER_00: That's my favorite, is when you arrive at this the same like stop sign or like light ahead, and you're just like, oh, did you get her any faster?
56:32
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: I just can't stand that.
56:35
SPEAKER_01: So the punishment impatiently honking right when the light turns green.
56:42
SPEAKER_01: They, for I would give it like a 10-year sentence.
56:47
SPEAKER_01: They have to only drive a government-given vehicle.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: A commodity vehicle.
56:55
SPEAKER_01: That is an electric car without a lot of power.
56:59
SPEAKER_01: So you have to.
57:00
SPEAKER_01: You have to like charge it all the time.
57:02
SPEAKER_01: Like every hour you have to charge it.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: It's also self-driving.
57:07
SPEAKER_00: And so they can't actually do any driving in their car either.
57:10
SPEAKER_01: And it will never go above the speed limit.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: Oh.
57:15
SPEAKER_01: So if it's a 35 mile per hour zone, they're going 35 miles per zones.
57:21
SPEAKER_01: They are going 20 miles an hour.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: They are making a full and complete stop.
57:26
SPEAKER_01: They are three seconds of the stop sign.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: At least.
57:29
SPEAKER_01: They are at least one car's length between the car in front of them.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: Perfect driver.
57:36
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
57:37
SPEAKER_00: And they have to do that for 10 years.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
57:40
SPEAKER_00: And are you saying like for one offense they get this punishment?
57:43
SPEAKER_00: Or like I would say frequent offender.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, frequent offender.
57:46
SPEAKER_01: I think that's, I mean, I get it.
57:48
SPEAKER_01: We might give the guy a break if, like, you know, he's on his way to the hospital and or whatever.
57:53
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that's the case.
57:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but if this is a frequent habit of that person, they're getting the government-issued self-driving safety car.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: The Megan Mobile.
58:01
SPEAKER_01: No, we would not put my name associated with that.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
58:06
SPEAKER_00: Do you have a if the social media, so don't get too ranty.
58:18
SPEAKER_01: Don't give me that look.
58:20
SPEAKER_01: Okay, be nice.
58:21
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: Be nice.
58:22
SPEAKER_01: This isn't about that.
58:23
SPEAKER_01: Think that there's mothers out there.
58:24
SPEAKER_00: This isn't about social media at all.
58:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to steer away from that topic right now.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
58:29
SPEAKER_00: And this happened to me again, like today.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: So it was top of mind.
58:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, but when I was going to the store and I was like checking out uh for Megan, I also had to make some purchases for work.
58:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, because again, I think I mentioned this before, but like a lot of my job is like giving out like perks at work and putting on events and things.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm always buying a bunch of random stuff for work.
58:49
SPEAKER_00: So I was there at the cash register and I had to buy like 10 little samples of like sunscreen, like small little travel size, because we're doing this whole thing for people that got this big sales trip and they're going to somewhere tropical.
59:02
SPEAKER_00: So we're like, oh, we're making these bags.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh, like little gift bags.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, little gift bags for these people, being like, Congratulations, you got the bags.
59:07
SPEAKER_00: Am I one of those?
59:08
SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you that.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
59:09
SPEAKER_00: Secret.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: No, but so we're putting these things together, and um, this lady is like making such a weird deal of how much I'm buying and clearly like prying into my life.
59:19
SPEAKER_00: And so she's like, Oh wow, look at all these sunscreens.
59:21
SPEAKER_00: Are you going somewhere?
59:22
SPEAKER_00: Are you going with you have nine kids?
59:24
SPEAKER_00: Like, what is all this stuff?
59:25
SPEAKER_00: Like, why do you have so many of these?
59:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, are you going on lots of trips?
59:28
SPEAKER_00: Like, so she kept going, and I normally just hate talking to people in these situations.
59:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, let me check out.
59:34
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna say, I just hate talking to people.
59:35
SPEAKER_01: I was like, Yep, yeah, continue.
59:37
SPEAKER_01: I understand.
59:38
SPEAKER_00: I I do enjoy good conversation with good people, but when it's like, you know, you're just trying to be polite and whatever, it's like just move on.
59:45
SPEAKER_00: So my whole thing is just people that try and get weirdly personal, and I tried to just answer her questions in as minimal like language as possible so we would not progress in the conversation.
59:56
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, it's for work.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: She's like, work?
59:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's even stranger.
59:59
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you have all these sunscreens.
1:00:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, where are you going?
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: Why do sunscreens for work?
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, are you putting on some sort of picnic for work?
1:00:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, she just kept going.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Oh, it's a sales contest.
1:00:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like at the end of your day.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm like, come on.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, I am no mood to talk.
1:00:12
SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, so those people that just keep crying and asking you personal things when you know you'll never see these people again and they want to know.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_00: Maybe she just wants like someone to talk to.
1:00:21
SPEAKER_00: But like, just make light conversation.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_00: If you're trying to be polite and just make conversation, just be like, oh, rainy day, huh?
1:00:28
SPEAKER_00: You know, oh, sunscreen for that rainy day.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_00: But you know, just say something very broad and general to prove that you're nice and to carry on a conversation.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_00: But like she was clearly going places.
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: I was just like, dude, I'm not gonna tell you about my nine kids or my job.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_00: She started asking me not only again about my job, like what I did, what my title was.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: She said she wanted to be that when she was young.
1:00:49
SPEAKER_00: She went into her mythical children that she wanted to have that never Wait, what?
1:00:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes, no, she literally was like, she was like, Oh, I always wanted to work in a field like that, you know, but I didn't.
1:01:00
SPEAKER_00: And you know, I also wanted to have a daughter named Jennifer, but literally I feel bad.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, don't because she was crazy.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: And I was just like, what is this conversation?
1:01:11
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm the one who would be carrying on that conversation.
1:01:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, really?
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: All my baby dolls were named Jennifer too.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_01: I just can't.
1:01:17
SPEAKER_01: I can't with people.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_01: Oh so anyway, so back to what what would their punishments people who want to know about your life and are interested.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: So, and I was trying to think, I was like, okay, where's the worst place that you could have a conversation with people where you know you're not actually like getting your message across, you're not like speaking as best as you can.
1:01:34
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's a good one, but no.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking the dentist.
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
1:01:37
SPEAKER_00: So you know when you're at the dentist and your hygienist is like, okay, so like what do you do for work?
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: And you're like, I literally can't speak because you have tools in my mouth.
1:01:45
SPEAKER_00: Like, literally, if I wanted to, you're holding my tongue down, so I can't say anything.
1:01:49
SPEAKER_00: So I was like, those people that are just like so prying and like watching all this personal information about you, they should just be subject to like five years where their only conversations with people have to be via of when they're in the dental chair.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_00: So these people were like, Oh, that's interesting.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: What's your daughter's name?
1:02:09
SPEAKER_01: I just think we're we're we're not angry people.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_01: We just use this as an outlet to vent, and we appreciate all those who listen to us.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_01: No, I mean everyone has their things, you know.
1:02:20
SPEAKER_00: We all have our things.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: I think you all should think very creatively about if I could punish this person, what would that look like?
1:02:26
SPEAKER_00: What would be fitting?
1:02:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:02:27
SPEAKER_01: We want to hear it.
1:02:28
SPEAKER_01: Keep it light, keep it funny, keep it light.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_01: Oh, Elizabeth.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_01: I think that was Socrates.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: I think we did it.
1:02:34
SPEAKER_01: We did.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_01: I think we did.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_01: I think we did it.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: We tackled a very big philosophical discussion today, and I'm very proud of you.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_00: With our our red wine, which makes us deep thinkers.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_00: No scotch today because we're not aggressive or overly calm, and this is when we go into ourselves and have a lot to say.
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: Any last words?
1:02:55
SPEAKER_00: Not today.