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Transcript

The Neuroscience School with Dr. Irena O’Brien · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Guy McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
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  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. Five, four, three, two,
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  Speaker 1: and one. Our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very
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  Speaker 1: excited to have as my guest today, Dr. Irina O'Brien. Irina, welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Guy, for having me on.
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  Speaker 1: You're welcome.
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  Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you. Dr. O'Brien is a cognitive neuroscientist and founder
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  Speaker 1: of the neuroscience school. A former CPA, she brings a
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  Speaker 1: practical science-based approach to teaching coaches, leaders, and helping professionals.
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  Speaker 1: Let me redo that here. And helping first learn how
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  Speaker 1: to apply. All right. Dr. Irina O'Brien is a cognitive
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  Speaker 1: neuroscientist and founder of the neuroscience school. A former CPA,
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  Speaker 1: she brings a practical science-based approach teaching coaches, leaders, and
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  Speaker 1: helping professionals learn how to apply neuroscience in real-world settings.
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  Speaker 1: Her work focuses on behavior change, human performance, decision-making, and
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  Speaker 1: the mechanisms that drive lasting transformation. She leads the ICF-accredited
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  Speaker 1: certificate program in applied neuroscience, helping practitioners integrate neuroscience into
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  Speaker 1: their work with clarity, rigor, and confidence. All right. Irina,
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  Speaker 1: just a little bit about you. Share with our listeners,
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  Speaker 1: before we get going here, where you're from originally and
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  Speaker 1: where you are currently. And then we will dive in.
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  Speaker 2: Originally, I was born in the UK. Okay. But now
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  Speaker 2: I live in Montreal, and I've lived in Montreal since
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  Speaker 2: I was five years old. So it's been a long time. Wow.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. All right. So very interesting here. How... does this
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  Speaker 1: journey begin for you cpa to neuroscience i know what
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  Speaker 1: the heck is going on.
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  Speaker 2: I know i know so the cpa you know in
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  Speaker 2: in my family it was really important to have security
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  Speaker 2: and to get a job with security so and a
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  Speaker 2: profession with security so hence i became a cpa but
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  Speaker 2: it just was not fulfilling Um, and I wanted something
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  Speaker 2: with more, sorry, with more meaning. So after my third
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  Speaker 2: child was born, I went back to university and I
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  Speaker 2: got a second undergraduate degree in psychology. And in my
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  Speaker 2: first semester, uh, back at school, I took my first
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  Speaker 2: course in neurobiology and I was hooked on neuroscience.
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  Speaker 1: Why, uh, psychology when you went back to school?
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  Speaker 2: I actually looked through the calendar to see what options
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  Speaker 2: were available and what I could do. The only other
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  Speaker 2: one that was kind of interesting would have been, that
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  Speaker 2: I would have wanted to do would have been archaeology. But,
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  Speaker 2: you know, that's kind of out there. I have a
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  Speaker 2: family and I live in Montreal. So, and I don't
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  Speaker 2: think the university that I was applying to had archaeology, so.
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  Speaker 2: I went into psychology, and I actually started off with
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  Speaker 2: just taking one course, the introductory psychology course, and I
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  Speaker 2: loved it, so I just kept going.
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  Speaker 1: All right, so you take psychology, you take neuropsychology, and
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  Speaker 1: then you get into neuroscience. How did that come about?
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  Speaker 1: What was it about that that kind of grabbed you?
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  Speaker 2: I felt like my mind had been let out of
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  Speaker 2: a box. that there was so much learning that was possible,
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  Speaker 2: and yet I was in this narrow field of accounting.
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  Speaker 2: So part of it is just the learning, and then
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  Speaker 2: also I've suffered from anxiety for probably my entire life.
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  Speaker 1: So that was interesting to me. I have anxiety too.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was interesting to me personally.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so... You start to study this. What happens? How
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  Speaker 1: does it evolve? How does your learning evolve? How does
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  Speaker 1: your journey evolve?
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  Speaker 2: So I went all the way to a PhD.
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  Speaker 1: Wow! Yeah. I did.
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  Speaker 2: I went all the way to a PhD, and I
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  Speaker 2: was really an experimental rather than clinical. So I did
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  Speaker 2: not follow the clinical route at all. Those were... Probably
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  Speaker 2: some of my happiest times in my life was that
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  Speaker 2: whole trajectory from my second undergraduate degree all the way
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  Speaker 2: up to a PhD. I was just in my element.
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  Speaker 1: In neuroscience, what is neuroscience?
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  Speaker 2: In simple terms, it's a study of how the brain works.
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  Speaker 2: So I was in cognitive neuroscience, so I didn't study
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  Speaker 2: the intricacies of, I don't even know how to call it,
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  Speaker 2: like the hormones and all of the metabolic stuff. It
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  Speaker 2: was larger, more like brain regions and brain networks. So
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  Speaker 2: it was more of a bigger picture looking at the brain.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. And what did you learn that... Continue to what?
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  Speaker 1: Inspire you? Surprise you?
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  Speaker 2: I learned how it can be so practical. The learnings
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  Speaker 2: about the brain. And so these learnings helped me deal
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  Speaker 2: with my anxiety.
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  Speaker 1: How? Tell me how. So how?
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  Speaker 2: So there are certain... So I'm... Yeah, so there are
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  Speaker 2: certain things that I teach also my students. It's about
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  Speaker 2: small steps. So I used to wake up every morning
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  Speaker 2: with despair. And it was really hard to get out
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  Speaker 2: of that despair. But then I learned about dopamine and
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  Speaker 2: about how if you start your day, your work day,
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  Speaker 2: with a small task that you can be successful on,
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  Speaker 2: that it can trigger a release of dopamine, and that
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  Speaker 2: predicts success on the next task. So I started to
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  Speaker 2: do that in the morning when I had that sense
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  Speaker 2: of despair. I would choose something that was easy but
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  Speaker 2: that still was important to do, and I would get
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  Speaker 2: that release of dopamine. I would feel great, and it
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  Speaker 2: would set me up for a great day just by
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  Speaker 2: starting that in the morning.
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  Speaker 1: Is that, oftentimes people recommend, and I think this is
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  Speaker 1: mostly for depression, but correct me if I'm wrong, exercise.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Could you still get that hit from exercise?
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  Speaker 2: Exercise is, yeah, exercise is super important, right?
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  Speaker 1: But would it give you that dopamine hit that you're
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  Speaker 1: talking about here?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, exercise will also give you that dopamine hit.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And then it also, I mean, it also triggers endocannabinoids, right,
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  Speaker 2: which are our internal cannabinoid system. And so that's also pleasurable.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So you started completing simple tasks, like what would
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  Speaker 1: that be? Cleaning? Cleaning?
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  Speaker 2: No, we're talking about work related here. I needed to
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  Speaker 2: get things done. I was able to build a business.
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  Speaker 2: So something like I do a lot of writing. And
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  Speaker 2: so when I would go through a research article and
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  Speaker 2: want to write about it, you know how hard it
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  Speaker 2: can be. So I would start with the methods section.
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  Speaker 2: And I would write out the methods. And that was
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  Speaker 2: my easy in, right? That was the first task in
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  Speaker 2: the morning because that was easy. And then after that,
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  Speaker 2: I could keep going.
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  Speaker 1: Now, how was that working to help or mitigate or
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  Speaker 1: mollify your anxiety?
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  Speaker 2: There are a number of things. It's not just that.
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  Speaker 2: The other big thing was acceptance. But you must know
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  Speaker 2: about acceptance, right? Acceptance of the way we are, of
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  Speaker 2: the way we're built. And it took me a long
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  Speaker 2: time to accept the anxiety because I think like most people,
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  Speaker 2: I just wanted it to go away because I hated it.
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  Speaker 2: But once I started to accept it, and acceptance doesn't
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  Speaker 2: mean liking it. It's just acknowledging what is and that
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  Speaker 2: this was my baseline. magically it reduced because the emotional
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  Speaker 2: charge left. And then I was able to implement some
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  Speaker 2: of the other strategies more effectively.
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  Speaker 1: So at what point, Irina, did you say to yourself, well,
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  Speaker 1: what did you do? I mean, you went through, you
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  Speaker 1: got this PhD. What was your goal in mind? Was
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  Speaker 1: it to teach? Was it to start a business or what?
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  Speaker 2: I didn't have a goal.
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  Speaker 1: Other than learning. Other than learning.
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  Speaker 2: I was just learning. But then after I did it,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I had to do something. And I had
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  Speaker 2: too much anxiety to teach. So I took a coaching course.
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  Speaker 2: But I had too much anxiety to find clients. So
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  Speaker 2: I didn't do that. But my first love.
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  Speaker 1: Hang on a second here, Irina, if you don't mind,
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  Speaker 1: and you don't have to answer this, but were you
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  Speaker 1: seeking help for your anxiety? Yes.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I've been in therapy and had coaches for many,
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  Speaker 2: many years.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. And it seems fair to say it was
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  Speaker 1: maybe not helping as much as you needed it to help.
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't helping as much as I needed it to help.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So, too anxious to teach, you take coaching, you're learning,
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  Speaker 1: you're psyched about what you're learning. Yes. What happens next?
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  Speaker 2: And I realized when I took the coaching program that
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  Speaker 2: there was nothing in there about the brain at the time.
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  Speaker 2: There was absolutely nothing. And in the coaching program that
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  Speaker 2: I took, So after I decided, okay, I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: start a membership program because I didn't want to keep
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  Speaker 2: on selling. But, I mean, you still have to keep
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  Speaker 2: on selling even if you have a membership program. But
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  Speaker 2: I started off, I mean, with 20 people in my
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  Speaker 2: membership program.
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  Speaker 1: And what was your membership program about?
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  Speaker 2: It was about neuroscience and neuroscience of change. And that's
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  Speaker 2: how I built the program that I have today because
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  Speaker 2: my goal was to create a new module every month.
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  Speaker 2: And I did that just about every month for a
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  Speaker 2: couple of years when I wasn't earning much money. And
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  Speaker 2: then I had a program. And that's when I applied
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  Speaker 2: to International Coaching Federation to have it accredited. And now
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  Speaker 2: it's not a membership site anymore. It's an ICF accredited
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  Speaker 2: program that offers continuing education units.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. So let me back up a little bit here.
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  Speaker 1: When you say you started the coaching program, I just
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  Speaker 1: want to get a little more clarity on that. The
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  Speaker 1: coaching program you did initially was what? To learn to
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  Speaker 1: coach others? Yes. Okay. Okay. And you realized there was
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  Speaker 1: nothing about the brain. When you started your coaching program,
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  Speaker 1: what were you thinking of? What did you conceive? Who
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  Speaker 1: was it for?
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  Speaker 2: It was for coaches primarily. But now I have doctors
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  Speaker 2: who take my program. I have psychologists who take my program.
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  Speaker 1: And what are you teaching?
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  Speaker 2: I have PhDs. I'm teaching about the neuroscience of change.
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  Speaker 2: So we go through things like willpower and decision-making, you know, emotion, stress, focus, flow,
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  Speaker 2: of course, diet, exercise, and sleep, relationships. So it's... it's
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  Speaker 2: pretty comprehensive.
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  Speaker 1: When you, you know, in the beginning you talked about
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  Speaker 1: how your understanding of the brain helps you with your
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  Speaker 1: own anxiety.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: That, that little dopamine hit. Yeah. What have you learned
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  Speaker 1: at this point that maybe is even helping you more
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  Speaker 1: or has helped you more or has anything helped you more? Yes.
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  Speaker 2: What I have learned, since then is that the purpose
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  Speaker 2: of the brain is not for thinking or feeling. The
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  Speaker 2: purpose of the brain is safety and survival. And so
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  Speaker 2: if our brain, or if we're alive today, it's because
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  Speaker 2: our brain thinks it's doing the right thing. And it
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  Speaker 2: will keep on doing the same thing over and over
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  Speaker 2: again until we challenge it.
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  Speaker 1: You're saying you're saying some very profound yes so you
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  Speaker 1: said if we are alive today it's because our brain
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  Speaker 1: thinks it's doing the right thing yes.
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  Speaker 2: It's kept us alive.
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  Speaker 1: Our brain has kept us alive wouldn't it be our
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  Speaker 1: brain has been doing the right thing.
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  Speaker 2: It has been doing the right thing to to to
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  Speaker 2: keep but not necessarily to it it's it thinks it's
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  Speaker 2: doing the right thing because we are still alive today.
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  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that you're going to eat the best
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  Speaker 2: diet for you.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Right. You could still get stuck in that trauma loop,
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  Speaker 2: but you're still alive today. So it's going to keep
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  Speaker 2: on predicting that.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Until we start to, until we start to challenge it.
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  Speaker 1: Now, What happens when we start to challenge it?
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  Speaker 2: So, I mean, through a trauma lens, the thing with
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  Speaker 2: trauma is that you can get stuck in a loop, right?
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  Speaker 2: And so the other thing to remember, too, is that
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  Speaker 2: the brain is a prediction machine. I don't know if
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  Speaker 2: you've heard that.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know that I have.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So the brain... There's some other theories about that,
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  Speaker 2: but in practical sense, we can say the brain is
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  Speaker 2: a prediction machine. So the loop that it has you
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  Speaker 2: in is that you have these incoming bodily sensations and
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  Speaker 2: the brain, because of your past trauma history, it will
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  Speaker 2: keep predicting that these bodily sensations mean this trauma. And
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  Speaker 2: so that just creates a loop and you can just
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  Speaker 2: get stuck in that loop. And you know how hard
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  Speaker 2: it is to get out of that loop once you're
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  Speaker 2: stuck in it. And the other thing too is that
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  Speaker 2: trauma memories are encoded differently than regular memories. Trauma memories normally,
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  Speaker 2: even difficult... memories that are not trauma-related, right? There'll be
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  Speaker 2: an amygdala activation, which is basically our fear response, right?
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  Speaker 2: Our anxiety response. And then the memory is in the hippocampus.
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  Speaker 2: But in a trauma memory, somehow the hippocampus also encodes
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  Speaker 2: the emotion. So that every time you're accessing that memory,
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  Speaker 2: that emotion is with it.
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  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Every time we're accessing that memory, the emotion is
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  Speaker 1: with it. Yeah. Which seems to, what, further dig in?
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  Speaker 2: It can get further and further entrenched.
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  Speaker 1: Right, right.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know all about it. I mean the loop, how, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So what's the treatment for that as I talk to
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  Speaker 1: you here?
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's a new paper out now. I think you've
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: interviewed Bessel van der Kolk about how the body keeps
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: the score. So this new paper is The Body Does
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  Speaker 2: Not Keep the Score. Are you aware of that paper?
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  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And it's a really interesting paper. It's more theoretical than anything.
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  Speaker 2: But the brain is constantly... accessing different states, right? That's
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  Speaker 2: a normal way, right? We have focus states, we have
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  Speaker 2: all different kinds of states. So the brain is flexible
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  Speaker 2: in moving between these states. But in a trauma brain,
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  Speaker 2: the brain has lost that flexibility and is stuck in
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  Speaker 2: that loop. And so what this paper proposes is to
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  Speaker 2: get out of that loop is to encourage other experiences,
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  Speaker 2: such as flow state is one. Because in a flow state,
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  Speaker 2: we're so immersed in an activity that our self-consciousness goes away.
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  Speaker 2: Like all our negative thoughts about ourselves are just not there.
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  Speaker 2: So that is one way to get out of that
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  Speaker 2: loop and then for the brain to start to see that, yes,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, I can live with the uncertainty. So you're
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: teaching a brain a different way. And there are other
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  Speaker 2: things like EMDR. Mindfulness is another one. Psychedelic-assisted therapy is
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  Speaker 2: another one that can get you out of that loop,
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  Speaker 2: at least for a while, and show you a different
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  Speaker 2: way of being, in effect.
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  Speaker 1: In terms of this paper... Yeah. I mean, there's so,
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  Speaker 1: and for so long, there's been this idea that trauma
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  Speaker 1: resides in the body. And... Yeah. One of the major,
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  Speaker 1: if not the major, path of treatment is to work
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  Speaker 1: with the body. Right? Working cognitively with trauma, yes, it's...
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  Speaker 1: It has its place, but ultimately, as the theory goes,
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  Speaker 1: one has to work with the body.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. I mean, the body is still important because it
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  Speaker 2: does receive those sensations, but the sensations are not stored
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  Speaker 2: in the tissue. It's still the brain that decides what
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  Speaker 2: they mean. So these are just sensations that are where
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  Speaker 2: the information is sent up to the brain, and then
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  Speaker 2: the brain has... has decided already, because it's in a loop,
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  Speaker 2: that these sensations mean trauma. So practically speaking, it might
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  Speaker 2: not mean, you might not, as a therapist or a coach,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: you might not do anything differently. Except you will, though,
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  Speaker 2: because I like how the paper emphasizes that Encouraging more
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  Speaker 2: flexible brain states could be an important way to go.
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  Speaker 1: Encouraging more flexible brain states. That even seems and feels
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  Speaker 1: like a good antidote or help treatment for anxiety. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Right? Because in anxiety, we're stuck in that closed loop, too.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so let's get back to
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  Speaker 1: your program. What's your program called? And again, who's it for?
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  Speaker 2: It's called Certificate Program in Applied Neuroscience.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: And it's for coaches, helping professionals.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. Your website is called the Neuroscience School.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, neuroscienceschool.com.
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  Speaker 1: Okay. And people would come, coaches, therapists– Psychologists would come
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  Speaker 1: there to learn more about neuroscience, but specifically, how's it
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  Speaker 1: going to help a therapist? People listening to this program, right?
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  Speaker 1: Therapists of all kinds. How's it going to help them?
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  Speaker 1: What are they going to get there?
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  Speaker 2: Well, they're going to learn how to work with... like
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  Speaker 2: the first topic that I said about how to get
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  Speaker 2: stuff done is, you know, with small steps that you
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: can have some success on, right? And then also, I mean,
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  Speaker 2: other examples are like motivation, right? And so the primary
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: networks that we work with is the default mode network
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  Speaker 2: and the central executive network, also called the task positive network.
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  Speaker 2: And So I work primarily, I guess most of them
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  Speaker 2: are kind of, no, they're not all business people. But
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  Speaker 2: everyone wants to get stuff done. And a lot of
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: people are just stuck in a lack of motivation. Well,
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  Speaker 2: they're stuck in the default mode network, which is the
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: network that's involved in self-referential thinking. So thinking about ourselves,
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  Speaker 2: you know, and thinking about others. And if they're trying
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: to get themselves motivated, they're being stuck. In that network.
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  Speaker 2: And you can't get external work done in that network.
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  Speaker 2: You have to move over to the central executive network
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: in order to get external work done. So the way
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to get out of a lack of motivation is start
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  Speaker 2: doing things.
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  Speaker 1: Just shut up and start working.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, start doing things. But you can make it easy
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: on yourself by starting with a small task. But that's
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: still important. Or even simpler is to take your mind
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: out of your brain and into the room. Just look
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: around the room or look out the window to take
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: yourself into the present moment. And you take yourself out
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: of your mind.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: I want to give our listeners an idea of how
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: the program is structured.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: So the program is 14 modules.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: And this is all online?
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: The modules are online. They're in video format. So they're
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: really like PowerPoint slides with a voiceover. I go into
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: the science quite, I'm not going to say deeply, but
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: I do teach the science. And then also what are
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: the learnings from the science. And then we come together
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: each week for a Q & A call. Like, I
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: just finished a call right now. That's why, yeah, I
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: just finished a call.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Okay. Awesome. Awesome.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: And they get a personal transformation. And the main thing
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: that they learn is that, wow, we have more power
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: over our brains than we thought. Like, people think that
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: they don't, but they do. They have a lot of
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: power to change.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Give us one or two insights into that.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Get more specific about that.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: So we looked at emotion today. And the theory that
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: I really like is the theory of constructed emotion. And
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: so our emotions are not universal, but we construct them.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: And we construct them from all of our past experience
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: because our brain is built on our past experience. So
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the brain that you have today is really a summary
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: of your past experiences. And so our emotional reactions, especially
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: the knee-jerk reactions, they just come from the predictive brain
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: and our past experience. So the brain is always going
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: to be predicting the same reaction until we start to
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: challenge it. And one way to challenge it is by asking,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: do this set of bodily sensations and external sensations, does
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: it always mean that emotion? Maybe it might mean something else.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: And so that's how you can gain some agency. And
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: that's why I like this model very much, because it
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: gives you agency. over, yeah, over your emotions. So you
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: have power over them.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Right. And many of us, what, don't challenge our brain.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Many of us don't.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Because we're on autopilot. Yeah. Right.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And the brain is lazy, right? The brain likes autopilot.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: And challenging it is not easy. You know, when I
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: tell you you can challenge it when you have power, well,
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: it's not easy. But it can be done. I mean,
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: I've done it. I don't wake up with despair anymore
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: in the morning.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: That is pretty amazing. So in terms of coaches or therapists,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: obviously I can see how that would be pretty empowering.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: How might that then, how could they then utilize this
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: to help them in their work? The work would they
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: do with clients, let's say, for therapists?
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: It changes. It really changes how they work with clients
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: because I think many clients think that they don't have
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: agency over their brain. And so my program shows them
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: that they do. So coaches internalize that and then they
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: work differently with their clients because now they have these tools.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: So for example, with a client who's... Who's stuck with
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: a lack of motivation. Now they have a tool to
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: help them get out of that and start to get
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: stuff done. By starting small. I mean, it's a simple step.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: But if you don't know, you wouldn't suggest that.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: And for you, Irina, just kind of going back to you,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: you said you don't wake up with despair anymore, which
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: is amazing. I mean, and would you attribute that to what?
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Getting up and knowing that the benefit of simple, important tasks?
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: Is that one reason? That's one.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: And then the acceptance was another big one.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Acceptance.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I know that's hard for people is accepting
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: how they are. When they don't like it.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean liking it, right? It just means acknowledging.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Does that also mean that you can't change it?
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: I think, no, it doesn't mean that. It just means
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: acknowledging that this is your baseline. But then I use
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: these other tools, right? Like starting with small tasks. Right.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: on those days where I really just can't get myself
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: motivated at all, like nothing is working. I used to
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: be an accountant, so I find accounting easy. So then
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I'll just start working on my bookkeeping. And so it's
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: an easier task for me, but I'm still moving forward
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: in a way. I mean, I'm not creating business, but
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: it's something that's still important to do. So that's another
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: way is just to have these things that you can
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: work on when you really don't feel like working, but
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: you still have to.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: All right, Irina. The neuroscience school, how do people learn
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: more about you and what you're doing? What's the best way?
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: I have, can I offer them something?
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I have this Applied Neuroscience Starter Kit, and
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: it's for anyone whose work involves helping people change. So
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: we already talked about coaches, therapists, and practitioners. And so
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: the first piece is the neuroscience of why clients get stuck,
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: and it'll give you 10 insights into what's actually happening
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: when someone understands what they need to do but can't
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: seem to do it. So things like why willpower fails
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: and why insight isn't enough and what the nervous system
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: needs instead. And the second piece is called the Brain-Based
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: Change Blueprint. And that shows you the three conditions that
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: have to be present before change becomes possible.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: Are you going to send me these links?
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: I can say them right now. Okay.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So they're on another site. They're on loveneuroscience.com. Forward
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: slash trauma. So that's loveneuroscience.com forward slash trauma. And if
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: they go there and sign up, they'll get those pieces immediately.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Okay. Let's make sure I have this. loveneuroscience.com Forward slash trauma.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Forward slash trauma. Okay. Bingo. Got it.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Awesome.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: All right, Irina. Wow, love it. Thank you for being here. Inspiring.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate it.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love talking about this, and I think it's important.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: It's very important.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: And the thing is, I mean, that all behavior change
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: is brain change. And so, I mean, yeah, all behavior
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: change is brain change. That's why it's important to know
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: things about the brain.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: All right. Love to have you back at a later date.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: We'll be in touch.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Okay. Thank you.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Bye. Thank you.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Bye-bye.