Latest / Mama Making Podcast / Katrina Ostmeyer | More Than a Diagnosis: How Beyond the Individual is Changing the Way We Support Neurodivergent Kids and Families

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Katrina Ostmeyer | More Than a Diagnosis: How Beyond the Individual is Changing the Way We Support Neurodivergent Kids and Families · Mama Making Podcast

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_03: Hello and welcome to the Mama Making Podcast where we share stories of moms making impact in their own lives and in the world around them.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Jessica, and each week I sit down with women who are building businesses, leading communities, shaping culture, and redefining what success looks like inside of motherhood.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: Because motherhood does not have to stop your ambition.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: It can transform it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's get into it.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Hello everyone and welcome to the Mama Making Podcast.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Jessica.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: If you're new, welcome.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: If you're not new, then welcome back.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Today I am so excited to have Katrina Ostmeier on the podcast.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: She is a licensed psychologist, board-certified behavior analyst, the mom of two neurodivergent kids.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: She's the founder of Beyond the Individual, where she works with children, families, and systems to design interventions that are evidence-based and practical, care that actually fits the person, the family, and the world around them.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: With a background spanning clinical leadership, research, and direct care, she has built a model of mental health services focused on scalable, high-quality diagnostic and treatment approaches.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: Katrina, thanks so much for being here.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to chat with you.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for having me.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited to be here.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: So tell us a little bit more about you, who you are, where you're from, whatever you're comfortable sharing.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: So as you said, I'm I I define a lot of who I am by what I do, psychologist, behavior analyst, and mom.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I live here in the Kansas City area.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm also an avid uh crafter.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, I spend a lot of time in the craft room when I can get in there after my daughter has destroyed it.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: But enjoy spending time with my family, our pet dog, and being outside, honestly.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's so great.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: So tell me a little bit more about where all of this work started.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: Let's start from the beginning.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I always start with um going into college, honestly.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I went to college with grand plans.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna be a surgeon when I went in.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: It took me all of a semester to realize that maybe that was not the path uh for me.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I found uh really defined my time in college is I was supporting myself and I did a lot of work.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I because I was working, I always had two jobs, was working more than 50 hours a week, most weeks going to school full time and not really considering what came next.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: And this may be a theme that sometimes comes out in my story is I'm like, if I just work hard, everything will work out.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I just had this belief and quickly was about one and a half semesters from graduating and realized I had no idea what I was gonna do.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: After I graduated, maybe I needed to figure that out.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Got into graduate school by the skin of my teeth, and then I actually started to learn how to plan.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to a master's program in psychology, planning to be a clinician as I got out and found research.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't really done much research in my undergraduate time and so didn't really know the process.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so most people figured this out earlier.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was a little delayed, but found that I loved research and decided maybe I didn't want to be a clinician.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wanted to go do my PhD.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And my goal was to be a R1 research scientist.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, like big research grants and big projects and teams and working in a college.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so went on to do my PhD.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: And actually starting out my PhD really was working on that trajectory.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then my husband and I found out we were pregnant with our first kiddo.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And in that process, uh, had a very difficult pregnancy, followed by uh my son was born preterm.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: And as often happens when we have children, we realize maybe our hopes, aspirations, and dreams and what success is can change a little bit.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And at that time, while I still loved research, I started to understand the climate of academia, what it all involved, and the moving and and all of that.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, this is not what I want for my life.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be closer to home.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be close to my family.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: My family was all uh I'm from western Kansas.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: Ironically, my entire family lives in Kansas City now, parents and siblings and everyone.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: But um decided that I needed to make some choices to help get myself back to the Kansas City area sooner rather than later.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the first things is I started working outside of the mold.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So with PhD programs in clinical psychology, there's an expected progression, especially for ones such that I went to.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know what?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to go through that progression.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to have to move every year for the next three years.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I made my own internship.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a job waiting for me, just let me go.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I I was lucky to have a couple cheerleaders in the background who helped convince the other faculty to let me do things my way and move back to Kansas City early to finish out my PhD and internship.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I took my first job out of graduate school as the director of a not-for-profit working to expand evidence-based services for children with autism in the state of Kansas.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I was convinced this was my forever job.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I'm gonna do.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love this place.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: I love the people I work with.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: I worked with them when I was doing my masters.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized it took me a while to realize, but I had a pretty pivotal moment.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was, we were moving, we were, we bought a new house, we were moving, and I had taken off moving day.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: The only day I'd taken off was the day where we were, we had the moving truck, we're moving all of our stuff, and I had to drop everything and drive out to Topeka, which is our state capital, and have a meeting.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, this, this is not, this is not the life that I thought I wanted.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so it took me a couple of months to, or not actually just a month.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: It took me one month to build up the courage to go talk with my boss and friend and let her know, like, this, this is not, this is not what I want.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: This is not for me.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I gave six months notice, which is a ridiculous amount of notice looking back, but let her know I was leaving and I didn't have a plan.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that six months also gave me a chance to figure out a plan.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I started looking.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Hey, do I want to go?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I can go work at the hospital, I can do some different stuff, and just wasn't really excited about the opportunities that I was finding.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started cold emailing schools that I worked with and said, Hey, uh, do you need some specialty uh behavioral consultation?
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that is how I started beyond the individual, is I had a couple of schools come back to me and say, you know what?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we could use your help.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got in my minivan because I'm a mom with two kids now, and started driving across the state of Kansas, providing systems-level intervention for schools and some specialty services for really highly impacted behavioral and mental health cases across the state.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: So started there with uh, I'm gonna do this by myself.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: I was just planning, I was like, I'm gonna eat.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I just need to make enough money.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: We can pay for this mortgage, I can eat.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And starting a business, things can be a little bit unpredictable.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: So maintained another three full time or not full time part-time jobs on the side because why not?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, sounds fun.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the interesting thing is as I kind of worked through this, I had the opportunity to have a lot of cool experiences.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing research, I was doing clinical supervision, and I was practicing.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And long story short, I figured it out.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: I decided in the middle of COVID to open my first clinic because July 2020 was a great time to get a brick and mortar.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, from there, I worked my way out of the part-time jobs to fully focus on beyond the individual.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, for brevity's sake, I'll jump through the next two pieces very quickly.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Business is hard.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of uncertainty.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I had the opportunity to go back into academia a few years ago.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I took a position as the as an associate faculty at the University of Kansas where I would did my undergrad, which was amazing.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: I trained clinicians.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: I ran the training clinic for KU clinical child site.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, this just uh came out, but that was about three years ago.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually just put in my notice there because I had the realization I need to focus on one thing.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm back to be on the individual full time again.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Long story short.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what I love about your story is one, it's just so honest and that like so many things come and go and happen so differently than we expected.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I definitely relate to having so many things on your plate that you're like, okay, where should I really be focused?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it does take like fully getting into something and being like, whoa, this is this isn't what I thought it would be.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: So you you started in a more like research-based role and then found yourself working in a nonprofit.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: I'm such an advocate for like on-the-job training and learning, and there's so much to be learned on the job that you can't learn in school.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: So, how did it take you from this research-based area to like direct care for kids with autism?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: So within uh clinical psychology, we have to do both a clinical and a research piece for our PhD programs.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, being a graduate student, you don't realize how naive you are going into all of this.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're like, oh yeah, learned all these things.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've been in school for like over a decade now.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know everything.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: We don't definitely when you say on-the-job training.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I, in my internship year, technically was not the director, but was functioning as a director during that year and quickly learned all of the pieces that went into it systems management, working with insurance, uh, working with the state and advocacy.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what one thing that I often will tell people, I would love, again, like I said, I would love to say that I had a plan for any of this.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: I am a naturally curious person and I get very excited very easily.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, that's new, that's shiny.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm excited about that.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I jump two feet in without looking to see if there's any alligators in the pond first, you know?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so while that can be a liability sometimes, and I've definitely come into contact with some consequences of such decisions at times, it's also such a great opportunity or way to learn because sometimes you need to learn something, you just have to be open to those new experiences and willing to do things and willing to go in and try without knowing if you're going to succeed.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's another piece for me is like being able to go in and say, like, I believe that I have the skill set to deal with the consequences of my actions, even if I don't fully have predictability or a plan.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: But I could sit and have analysis paralysis and nothing will ever happen.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I've and going into like moving into the clinical realm and really more administrative, I didn't know what I was saying yes to.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be really honest.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: But I said yes.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: And from the research to the more administrative, uh clinical piece, it really was driven by like I just I wanted to be back home.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I the things that matter in life, like going into grad school, you're consumed by your goals of what you're going to do with your career.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, having my first kid was that realization is like, oh my gosh, life is so much bigger than this, and I need to think a little bit more holistically.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's kind of like you do a little trial by fire.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's mistakes, I made lots of mistakes.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um tried to not make other people pay too much for my mistakes along the way, but it was it was a transition.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think the one thing that I've maintained from that research viewpoint is that curiosity and being willing to go in and try things with hypotheses and know like what's gonna happen is gonna happen.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think something that's so interesting between motherhood and entrepreneurship is that you consistently have to be adaptable.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: You have to be trying things and see what works and and what doesn't, you put to the side.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: But at the end of the day, there's no like major failure.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's all there's so much to be learned from things not going the way that you expected.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: I'm definitely the kind of person that's a a trial by fire and trial by error as well.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like a doer.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: I need to, I need to see it happen and fit and quote unquote fail at it to really understand it.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so I totally identify with that.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, you've had a myriad of experiences in this realm.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: What brought you more towards the the direct care and made you decide to start this business and and really see the need for this type of support?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the first thing is going into, like I said, I went into grad school.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, research is awesome.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: We learn all these things, it's exciting.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I will say I did get a little bit jaded with with research as well.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like it absolutely, we've learned so many things, and I believe in science and hypotheses and the and the scientific process.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things I learned is like, wow, I can make my data say a lot of different things when I write a paper.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, with that, is what does this data actually mean?
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And how significant really is this finding or this information?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so going into that, I saw, first of all, like research, what I'm reading, and then the application can look really different.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And at the time that I was in grad school, where our field was, it's like we need to think about it's uh translational research.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's how do we take things from the the uh research to the real world?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we've actually, as a field, also adapted how we look at it.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we need to be more real world in our research.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: But that was kind of a first turning point for me and moving toward that clinic clinical standpoint and going to opening open beyond the individual.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: The next thing is like my experience being a the director of this not-for-profit.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I kept running into like we had a great, admirable mission, extend services to underserved populations, low-income rural populations, and I loved it and I would, and I still am very passionate about this, but I was finding we were having to make trade-offs.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we could either expand and get more services to more kids, but the quality was going to suffer and we weren't gonna do as well.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: There were times where I had to really reflect and say, like, are we doing good or harm in this particular situation?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think overall we did good, but there were times where upon self-reflection, I'm like, oh, I think we're causing harm in some cases.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started to recognize like by trying to operate within these systems and trying to prioritize what's the most important goal in here, I wasn't really happy with what uh I was producing.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's part of and part of the impetus of my transition is I said, okay, my values are probably more leaning towards that high quality and doing it well and finding ways to make systems work better rather than saying this is the system we're gonna do the best we can.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like for me, that almost is kind of like laying down and taking it a little bit.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just not in my personality.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm a person who was like, let's make it better.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so beyond the individual, where when I started it, I had two goals.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one was definitely, I need to eat, I need to make money.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know what I want right now, but I think I can figure out, you know, month by month, day by day, what we're gonna do.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I can always go get a job here, there, or anywhere.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be perfect, but you know, I can be resilient.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: But then the other piece is like, how do we make this better?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do we do this better in a way that's more financially feasible?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: The systems work, uh, we're working not just within the systems, but we're changing the systems to be more effective.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and that really is, it started to become one of those things where I was like, I I might not be publishing a lot of research or doing a lot of posters or things like that, but I was like, man, I can use my research mind and training in this clinical realm to do things in a way that's different and novel.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: And at the end of the day, I don't have to respond to publish or perish motivation.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: I just get to go and do work and make people's lives better.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: So tell me what has evolved from obviously you just talked about the the beginning of it.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: What has it looked like now for Beyond the Individual?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: How has that evolution looked?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: And what tell us everything there is to know about Beyond the Individual.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I'll I'll tell this as a little bit of a story as well.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh I'm I'm a little messy.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna be honest.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when I started things, I went in without a plan, started working.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm just gonna do this.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be just me and my van going around, helping people, making systems work better.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, that's where all these part-time jobs come in.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, maybe I need a little bit more of a plan to make this work cohesively.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it was through some of those part-time jobs.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, man, I'm I'm not happy doing the things I'm doing with these jobs.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like, one is I I like to be my own boss.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I like to make decisions.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like people to tell me what to do.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm probably that that ODD kid who's like, no, don't tell me what to do.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: But then also within that, I was doing some like general psychological practice in a clinic.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, uh I'm not really excited about these once-a-week type of cases.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: My experience and background's really in more like high-intensity behavior, and I'm more excited about being able to hypothesize and say, like, this is exactly what's going on, and lead a team of providers.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's part of what led me to like, I need to make beyond the individual bigger than just me and my van.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then in COVID, when we yanked all of our services away and we're trying to do all this stuff over telehealth, and you know, it's it's we got a lot of really cool data out of that.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: But there's this subset of the population where telehealth is just not gonna do any kind of justice.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you know, I, you know, our hospitals are open, we're deciding what services need to be face to face.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think some of this needs to be face to face within reason, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that led me to that brick and mortar.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And with that brick and mortar, I actually had two really cool opportunities.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: One is my mother was really close to retirement.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: She's a teacher, and she's like, I do not want to go back to school next year.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: She had some medical issues.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, I'm I'm gonna be that person you just read about in the news who died of COVID.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, okay, cool.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to give my mother a job as our admin assistant, which was so uh important to me and my values of family.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then I brought on a peer, a BCBA, who uh or sorry, BCBA is a board certified behavior analyst.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, we're gonna start, let's go ahead, let's build a service model.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing all these things that are not working, and I can't do this on my own.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I started to entertain, maybe I can figure out how to hire staff.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: I figured out how to how to employ people and follow all of the employment laws and all of that.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we opened the brick and mortar, and it took a while to figure out some credentialing and things like that, and we started accepting insurance, which was really pivotal because um at the time I said, hey, I work fee for service only.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so we opened up our ABA division accepting insurance.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: With building our model, I actually had to go get a bigger office.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: We hired additional staff, and then I got excited.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, this is cool, we can do this.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: I can I can expand.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I got probably a little overzealous.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Opened another clinic three hours away with somebody else.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, cool, we're gonna do this clinic, it's gonna be great.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna make this like let's expand the service model.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then hired another person who could have helped who's a little bit more type A than I am, which is probably a good thing to help clean things up.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then we're like, let's open up another clinic in five hours away.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: We're like, we're gonna do this as well.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And in doing all this, things were just really messy.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be honest.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started to see because I started to revert back to working within the systems that I knew, the systems I had experience with, and trying to do the same service that everybody else was doing, but with a different population.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't working because the systems did not support what we were trying to do.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: And over a series of changes, we ended up not opening the clinic five hours away.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: We ended up selling the clinic three hours away.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we decided we're not gonna accept insurance anymore because that was one of the systems that was affecting our ability to do what we were trying to do.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And That we said we're going to do something at Beyond the Individual and serve a population that other people in our area don't.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: And what that is, is really looking at using things like behavior analysis and that science of behavior to treat outside of autism spectrum disorders and outside of intellectual and developmental disabilities.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because in my experience, I work in complex behavior.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I look at behavior and mental health in a way that may be a little bit different because I'm a behavior analyst, but I also look at what we call the private environment.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: And those are those things that are involving like our heart rate and our things that we coined, like anxiety and mood and such.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I found the people who were excited about this, we went from having 45, 50 staff to five and one clinic, Kansas City, got back to our roots and school consultation and working to build things out.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things with being novel and doing things a different way and taking risks is that not every risk works out the way you plan.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so we did this for a year and we were kind of skating by.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: With the systems and high quality and giving people those services that keep them in their homes.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I got a little scared.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I had this opportunity to come across, and someone I have adjuncted on and off as a supervisor with uh KU Clinical Child.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: And they reached out, they said, Hey, we need a new clinic director.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is an associate professor role.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: Would you be interested?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, No, absolutely not.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very busy.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've got lots on my plate.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started to feel what if I took this opportunity?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: We took my paycheck out of the business.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: It would give us a little bit more flexibility.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I really felt strongly about I want to support the people who work with me now because they're important to me.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've got five staff.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't want to disappoint anybody.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I did, I came back two weeks later and said, maybe I'm interested.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And ended up taking that position, and which I loved.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be honest, and I'm still in it currently.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love training, and and that I forgot how much I enjoyed training.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: I had the opportunity to build that clinic and change some things and really look at how do we build these systems from a training perspective?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: How can I teach my students to approach these uh questions in a way that is maybe outside of what everybody else is doing?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and I love that and it's exciting.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then over the last three years, we actually had our most successful three years of the business.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And even with that, there's ebb and flow.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were able, though, to build out these really big system support and build up our more fee-for-service lines looking at what we do.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I got to that realization that I was like, oh my gosh, I am working, I'm back, I'm back to my undergrad years of working 50 to 60 hours a week and going to school full time.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I can't, I I'm in my 40s now.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can't keep doing this.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: My kids actually need me.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: My kids also have some unique needs.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like mom needs to be there and it's what I specialize in.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I um have made the decision to leave.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in the process of making that transition now.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time, I decided to make that that jump.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're making another slight change to our service model because we just need to diversify a little bit more.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so we are looking to open our insurance-based model up slightly.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna try to serve the clients that we opened for using insurance-based model, but we are extending a service line to our birth to five now and really trying to buy build a birth to five year service line because it's a little bit more predictable.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we need that predictable service line to do the exciting and different things that we're doing and what we were founded to do.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: But what we found is like when you're doing something new, there's so much risk.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if you put all of your eggs in that basket, there's you're always gonna be stressed.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're building their other service line to help just give a little bit more stability underneath the things that we're excited about.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_03: So tell me what population are you serving now?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: What do the services look like from your team to to these families and individuals?
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then how you talk a little bit about like letting go of the fix or fixing the individual.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me all about that and how you've kind of built your model, what it looks like now to serve that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: So our model, we really focus on a continuum of care.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we do know that, you know, we have mental health, that traditional one hour a week kind of model can be great for a lot of people.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: But we also see that that is woefully inadequate for about 20 to 30% of the population.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so, with that, we provide a very niche and specialized service that's trans diagnostic.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what that means is that we don't work with like a single diagnosis, like we work with autism or OCD or anxiety.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: We work across a profile because we see that these conditions tend to be related.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people will specialize in working with a certain type of either diagnosis or population.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And that specialty actually can make you really good at something, but doesn't serve an entire individual.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so within our continuum of care, we do have our traditional once a week, uh, which is a very small portion of our population that we serve.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then we start looking at specialty care, which might be a little bit more intensive or specialized, like for OCD, we do some specialized exposure response preventions, what it's called, or our behavioral parent training tends to be a little bit more individualized, but maybe is not at really high intensities.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: You move up our service model, we go to our higher intensity uh behavioral interventions, and this is where we tend to see a lot of overlap between intellectual developmental disability and mental health.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like we see a lot of autism with OCD, for example, or we see adults where they they're almost independent, but they're not quite there.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And our job is to kind of help put put them over the edge so they can be more independent in their life.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the end of our service model is assessment, because we see that sometimes our clinic can't meet the very intensive needs, like people who maybe need 40 hours a week of intervention or specialized living arrangements, and assessments can give you a ticket to get access to those services.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we really look at how do we look at a continuum of care to meet the needs of individuals at every space.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so we uniquely assess and individualize those interventions.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: But then we also look around the person.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: So beyond the individual is about being working beyond the individual, working in the systems around.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: So our other lines involve a lot of educational consultation.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we work in um what we call multi-tiered systems of support or MTSS or positive behavior supports, where it's helping schools have good just basic behavior management and social emotional development curricula, moving up to kids who maybe need very highly specialized uh needs in the school setting.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll provide consultation and support for those models, in addition to working with families to help acquire services and then train service providers to make those services help this individual grow rather than just say, like, hey, you know what?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've got somebody with an intellectual disability.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want to make sure that they got their basic needs met.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: We want more than that.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: We want to see them grow in their independence and their economy and have the life that they want to live.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so our services really focus on building skills across, you know, not just in childhood, but then also in adulthood and helping people live the life they want to live.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we do that through that system support, individualized therapies and assessment.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it's so important that you obviously focus on helping the school setting that they're in, help them thrive in those areas and and bring support that they might not have otherwise at their school.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: But like the other half of their life they're spending at home with parents and and their family.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Can you tell us more about the work that you are doing to help parents?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: I know you used kind of the ACT method and the or the the the therapy or therapeutic model of ACT, but then also acknowledging the parenting struggles and then mental health and well-being that comes along with parenting a child that might have unique needs.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: And and this is one thing where I I do bring some of my own uh experience and perspective.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Now my kids are fully capable of living independently someday.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have that perspective as a parent.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I do have kids who maybe get certain labels in other settings, such as one I I had the word disrespectful for one of my kids, and I was like, I understand, like, and I understand that how that behavior can be perceived that way, but also this was at the time she was five.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I get that, but also like you don't actually understand what we've been doing in our parenting and working through some of these things.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so when working with parents, I always I do lean a little bit on my own experience as a parent of kids who have both my kids have 504 plans within the school district, have some emotion regulation difficulties and um attention issues.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that when we look at helping support these families, we we need to look in a very multifaceted way.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we first of all focus on like what does the kid need, right?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because we want to build our services and our supports around the child because that's usually our identified client.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so I start with what does this kid need?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then my next question is how feasible is this with what we've got?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And those services with supporting the parents can look a lot of different ways depending on what we're presenting with.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing may be how do I help you get additional supports?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: How do I help you communicate with other uh services or systems in a way that's going to help both you and the child and for you to feel good at the end of the day and help be the advocate you want to be for your child?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: We also focus on emotion regulation, right?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: When you have a child who maybe has different needs, it can be a lot.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the things that you're working through on a day-to-day basis, you have to maybe take some of your own preconceived notions.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like for me, I'll be honest, I do value respect.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: I do value, honestly, I want to say I value, I don't really value control, but I like control.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to balance as a parent my desire for control with in this moment, I need to make a different decision.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not controlling the situation.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm letting my kids figure this out, even though I want to fix it or I want them to behave a different way.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we work through some of those things.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's where we use a lot of the acceptance commitment therapy is what's important to you.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then also providing education.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, here's where you're at now.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you're not gonna control the moment right now.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to do something that's going to lead to better outcomes across multiple presentations.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you're going to fail a lot and it's going to be real hard.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: And our job is to help support you in that.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we are a coach, we are and help them teach them how to advocate.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: We help parents learn how to recognize what they are doing and how do they interact with their child in a way that's going to be effective over time.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other thing is we also may intervene at multiple systems.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not uncommon for our clients that we might be providing intervention at home and in school.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so we might be going in and saying, like, hey, we want to teach skill X.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: So all the adults have to agree to how we're going to conduct Y.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so we work to make those systems work cohesively together.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: And I love the like individualized, personalized approach to it because obviously no two families are going to be the same.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe you have one parent who is a stay at home parent and full-time caregiver for this child, or you have another parent who works a nine to five, their kid goes to school.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: That's a different, or like you have a single parent, or you have a guardianship.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's so many different ways a family can look, as we all know.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_03: And that level of support is going to change based on that specific family and that child's or individual's needs.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's so important about the work that you guys are doing is acknowledging that maybe the support is just needed in one small area or maybe it's needed across the board.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think it's also important to kind of one thing we tell families is there's more than one way to meet a goal.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so when we work in systems intervention, we think about machines.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I can build a machine in infinite ways that has the same output.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I need to recognize what are the components I have to work with to make that output what I want it to be.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's almost like kind of like an engineering feat.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we put that together.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there's also autonomy and choice, right?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: So within our service model, because we also recognize that everybody has a unique situation and not just their child or the systems or the components that we're using to build their intervention, we have really real constraints like, you know, what are your means?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: What can you do and afford and things like that?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: And we can say, like our biggest trade-off is how much work are you going to do versus how much money are you going to spend?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds horrible.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that we're able to do, sometimes families say, you know what?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I recognize this is a time-limited intervention.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to spend the money here.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to invest in this because I think it's going to be better for my family if I have somebody in here doing some of the intervention for me and then learn what to do after we've built some of the skills up.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Where some families may say, like, I'm going to be from the ground level, we're going to build the skills together.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then we can change how we approach that treatment as well.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the thing is at the end of the day, we're using all the same science of behavior, but we're being pragmatic in how we apply it based on what are what are our components, what are our resources, and what are the desires of the family unit.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_03: What are some of the successful stories that you've had come out of some of your client relationships?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Some of my most treasured I I love it when I hear back from a client years later.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I've got one client in particular who that I actually started working with that first year I left was very severely affected with the diagnoses that they had, completely dependent.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: And there's some other stuff here that we don't feel like we have the capacity to work with.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this one I it was just such a pivotal case for me and really helped build what I wanted to do.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: That client actually has come back to me a couple of times, or I've done some consultations with their parents.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: They're an adult, full-fledged adult now in their mid-20s.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: And they came back to my office because they're like, okay, we are living pretty independently.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: We're moving out of our parents' house right now.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there's this one thing that we need to manage and figure out how to figure out how to sush a little bit.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: Can you help us?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to be meeting with their current therapist where they live to see what we can do to help build some system support.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And my, whereas I started out, they would drive to Kansas City, get a hotel, and we'd be doing interventions intensively for several days in a row, or me driving out to their house at 5 a.m.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's I I had a consultation for an hour and a half in my clinic, and I'm gonna talk to their therapist, and that's all they're gonna need.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: That that is one of my favorite cases of all times.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I've had a lot more like that, like kind of some of these dual diagnoses.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and one of my students actually reached out asking if I would kind of talk about my clinical experience related to like working with autism and limited verbal people with limited verbal communication and obsessed compulsive disorder, because there's not a lot of research on that.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's another one where I've had a lot of these cases.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is where a lot of my work ends up.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my students asked, like, hey, would you be willing to come talk about this for um one of these uh national organizations?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, that's exciting and fun.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I also told my student, I was like, I feel a little nervous because I'm not doing research, and the people who usually talk at these things are neuroscientists and such.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like, No, I think there's not research on this, so your experience is impactful.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really one eye-opening for me, and then also really gives value to what we do.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much for the work that you're doing.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: I I feel like having a go-to for families that are are in the middle of maybe it's a crisis or an on ongoing challenge that they've had as a family.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_03: I think having a a resource that can help them through the continuum is so impactful for for them and their family and friends.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I I'm just so grateful for the work that you do.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: And thanks so much for having me on.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's such a privilege to get to come talk with you about it.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: So tell us if there's anything exciting coming up for Beyond the Individual.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the most exciting things are one is I'm gonna be moving back to full time with Beyond the Individual over the next several months, which I'm very excited about being able to focus again on my passion project fully.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other is our Birth to Five model that we are building.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll be working with daycare centers to help with early identification and screening to help get kids into services and then also providing some of those services both at the systems level and individual level with our Beyond Beginnings intervention program.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: I will say a zero to five program is incredible.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, you know this, but maybe the listeners don't.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_03: That early intervention timeframe is so incredible to be able to watching what happens in that time frame, how much development they have, and and being able to intervene and provide some services in that timeframe is paramount to success.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_03: I was a nanny for a family who had two kids who were on the spectrum and did early intervention and being able to watch them struggle with some things in the beginning and then be proficient by the end and be in regular ed classrooms and have very little intervention in the school system was really incredible to be able to watch.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: So please uh get more information on early intervention if you feel it's needed.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_03: But um, where can people find you and your clinic?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: Uh social media website, whatever you'd like to share.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so uh best place to find us is online at www.beyondtheindividual.com.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we can provide services across 44 states.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not just confined to Kansas.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then also we're on social media, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much, Katrina, for sharing your story and for all the work that you do.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for having me.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: If this conversation resonated with you, I'd love for you to follow the podcast wherever you listen and share it with another mon building something meaningful.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: If you want deeper behind the scenes reflections that I don't share anywhere else, join my email list at the Mama Making Podcast.com.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for being here, and I'll see you next time.