Latest / Salish Wolf / #91 Jaap Koppedrayer on Project Quiver

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#91 Jaap Koppedrayer on Project Quiver · Salish Wolf

0:06
Welcome to Project Quiver, a father daughter journey across
0:09
the globe to document the artistry and spirit of the
0:11
world's finest traditional bowyers.
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I'm Todd and Ella is my daughter.
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Together, we've traveled to the workshops of master bowyers,
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carving bows under their guidance, photographing their
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work in extraordinary detail and preserving the stories behind
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one of humanity's oldest crafts. The result is Quiver, the Art of
0:28
Life Through Bow Craft, a photographic and narrative
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exploration of traditional bow carving.
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This podcast shares stories and experiences of the remarkable
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individuals who are carrying forward the enduring legacy of
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the bow and arrow. The book is Quiver.
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The journey is Project Quiver. Welcome to the Salish Wolf
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podcast. It's great to finally meet you.
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I've heard so much about you, especially from Stephon Tim, and
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you're you're what I would consider a legend in the field.
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So I'm really honored to be able to sit down and talk to you.
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Yeah, Stefan, he's a good, he's a good man, yeah.
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He's a good man and a great Bowyer.
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I really. Enjoyed spending time with him
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and I made my first Yumi bow with him.
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Might be my only one, I don't know, but yes, yeah, definitely.
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He's been here at least four or five times.
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I don't know, you know, but learning this, learning the
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craft, so to say. Yes, yes.
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Well, you have taught him well because he's he's very good at
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what he does. He is.
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Well, he's another Dutchman. What's that?
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Sorry. He's another Dutchman, So what
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do you expect? Yes.
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There you go, it's quite a few of you guys who are carving your
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niche in in the bow, your world. OK, Yeah.
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So you are located in Georgia, right?
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In the US located. In Georgia, Southeast Georgia,
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yes, we started a bamboo farm there for supplying, you know,
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my, my material for the bows. And, and with that, by learning
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how well, by growing your own bamboo, it's, it, it adds up a
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whole other dimension of knowledge of bamboo.
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It's, you know, it's very subtle, but over the years, over
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the years, that rescue built up. Yeah, I would imagine you have
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more knowledge than most people about bamboo.
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Why? Well, let's go.
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When did you actually start growing your own bamboo?
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That would be 2003. OK.
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And was that entirely for the bow making process?
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Entirely the only, the only reason why I'm here is growing
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bamboo. Otherwise I would have stayed
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in, in Canada, you know, but unfortunately I can't grow
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bamboo there. What happened is every year I
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would travel, you know, around fall, October, November, I would
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travel to Georgia to harvest bamboo.
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And you next year you come back, it's gone because just consider
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an obnoxious weed. So with all the, you know,
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housing developments, et cetera, et cetera, just all disappeared.
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And accidentally, I let fall to a friend who was a client I met
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at in Pennsylvania, one of the big, big, big archery meat shows
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shoots that I was looking for some land in Georgia to grow
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bamboo. Now he's a doctor specialized in
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in in for longs, you know, and he's on call all the time by the
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highway. So he, he's in the now he's he,
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he doesn't let grass grow over it, you know, so a weak lady
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calls him up. I find a place for you.
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So I go but, but, but, but I anyway, I told him I'll fly up
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and you pick me up. We'll look around, say Yep,
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that's going to be mine. So that's how it happened.
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Wow, and how much land do you have there?
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I got about 35 acres, most of it most of it is well, we got
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booze, swamp, couple of acres of bamboo and pecans.
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And then not only that, we also have on the land itself as the
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old ruins of the school, but the the lunch room, the building is
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in excellent condition, which became a community centre.
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But in the meantime, that's a long story.
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We acquired a community centre building and we host the
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Japanese archery, we host Chinese archery etcetera
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programmes every year. So we have a beautiful building
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with the kitchen, everything there we do lectures and so it's
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working out perfect. Wow, that's really cool.
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And so seasonally, you're hosting these different archery
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gatherings. And the Japanese archery doing
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something very unusual. Our school is basically on the
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school who who does that, But I don't know if you're familiar
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with the San Jose Kendo, the temple, the temple hall where
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they shoot the arrows. OK, that temple in in Kyoto is
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120 meters long, very narrow. And it's got a ceiling of five
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meters. And the target is 120 meters
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away. So you got to shoot incredible
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flat. And people tell, oh, you need
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strong, strong, strong bows. No, it's not strong, strong,
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strong bows. It's technique.
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Now on the land we have here, we have plantation pine which is
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grown in straight rows. So when I saw that, Oh my God,
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we can do something with that. So what I do now is I put bamboo
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poles between the bamboo, between the the trees.
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It's 5m high on the 20m long. And we got a corridor and my
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Japanese teacher is hundred 100% supporting us.
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So we keep in that kind of Japanese archery alive.
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What about the only place in the world who who really can do
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that? Wow, that sounds amazing.
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So you've made like a natural corridor with bamboo in the
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trees? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And then we then there was. It's a long story.
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We have a pole barn and so that's an open barn where I put
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the close up targets only one ball length away at an angle.
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So the training itself is you got to shoot several 100 arrows,
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you know, every day. So at, at the targets you can
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shoot 50 arrows. And if the, if you have help, of
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course, then one person pulls out and you can shoot several
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100 arrows. So when the program starts, that
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particular program, it's groups of three, they work together.
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So you really can what it is you need to build up your body
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memory and the angle of shooting.
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And once that's done, you go to the to the, go to the corridor
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and shoot there. Did you mention before you moved
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to Georgia that you were in Canada?
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Yeah, yeah. Where were you in Canada?
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Milverton, Ontario. OK.
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And why were you there? Stratford.
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Why? Why were you in Canada?
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Why I love Canada? No, my wife was American and
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anyway started teaching position at no, she did her PC, McGill
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and then anyways, all that stuff in the meantime.
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Well, first I immigrated the states, but then I got a job
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opening in Ontario who put me in charge of company in Quebec.
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I mean, we, we talking decades of time, you know, and then,
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then in 87, that's where we, I met my what I think it was.
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No, it's 8383. We were in Japan where I met my
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Japanese teach for the first time.
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You know, I mean, I know nothing about Japanese art, food.
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However, anyway, my wife got a job opening in Ontario, so we
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moved from Quebec to Ontario and that's where we stayed.
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I said I was running a greenhouse company and and
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that's 24 hours a day, seven days a week and say, you know
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what? Wow.
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When my wife and they opened the job where I said do it, I'm
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going to make bows and arrows. I didn't even know you could
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sell a bow and arrow, but, you know, I just did it and I never
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knew that. Yeah.
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So in 83 you were in Japan. What were you doing there?
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Well, my wife had to do a finish her PhD study in India and in
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those days Singapore Airlines would offer 33 stops in Asia.
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And I say let's stop in Japan, I want to pick up a Japanese bow.
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I didn't know nothing about anything, didn't know where to
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go to. But somehow we ended up in Kyoto
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and this sweet lady from the tourist office looked through
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books and papers and said OK. Then she wrote something down.
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Please go to the outside code, show this, this card is writing
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and he will take you there. And that's he made it.
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He drove us to the bow maker was 2021 generation bow maker.
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So it's quite something. What's his name?
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What's his? Name Shibata Kanjuru Shibata.
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Yes, that's who I thought. OK, incredible.
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So you went to Japan first time in 83 and you knew you wanted a
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bow. So where did the interest in
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getting a bow come from? Well, I got born right after the
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Second World War, you know, and everybody was sick and tired of
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a little, you know, I had those little handguns, whatever, you
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know, play cowboy and Indian. But Oh no, we couldn't have
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those kind of things. So I start making bows and
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arrows when I was 678 years old, you know, I start making bows.
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I just fell in love with archery and I never lost that interest.
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And then quite accidental fell back into archery again.
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Then in 808384, I picked up the bow in Japan.
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Then I had to get arrows. We lived outside Of Montreal,
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said well, no archery store have those kind of arrows.
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So I went to the to the reservation, Indian Reservation,
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Mohawk Reservation. And one of the fellows there
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sent me to Oka. I was a traditional lacrosse
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stick maker and all kinds of other things.
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And he left archery, too. So him and I start fooling
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around with bows and arrows, and, boy, we never look back.
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And he made the wooden arrows incredible.
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Yeah. 40 inches long. Yeah.
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Yeah. Quite a story.
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Yeah, that's that's that's the problem with my Yumi bow that I
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made with Stefan. I still don't have arrows for it
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so I've never shot it. It's the only bow I have that
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I've never shot. Yeah.
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So we crow bow bamboo and we crow arrow bamboo.
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And you know, arrows is not more than bow making.
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There's a lot to an arrow, you know.
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And of course I'm interested in light shooting, so long distance
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shooting. So that that is a whole lot of
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dimension for archery. Yeah.
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So if I learn correctly from Stefan, the main bamboo you're
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using for bows is Medaki bamboo. Yes.
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Correct. OK.
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And then what is the bamboo for arrows?
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That's Yadaki. Yeah, is.
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Yadaki, yeah, OK, wow. And those are two very different
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2 very different plants I presume.
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The Yadaki doesn't get ticked down your tongue and maybe maybe
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2 meters, 2 1/2 meters tall. And of course, the Badaki gets,
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you know, 60 feet up easily and six inches, not 3-4 inches
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across. But the Yadaki is the timber
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bamboo, extremely slow growing. Took a lot longer than I
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anticipated. But anyway, it's ideal for the
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football making very flexible. So very strong.
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I spend a lot of the year in Costa Rica.
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We have a lot of bamboo there and it grows it there, grows
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very quickly. So are you saying the medaka
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takes a lot longer to mature? Yep.
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And then, you know, when the pole comes up, you think, oh,
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you know, we'll put it in fall. No, you have to let it grow at
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least 3-4 years and it needs a winter cycle to harden, you
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know, not a deep, deep freeze, but a good freeze every once in
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a once in a while that will really harden those cells.
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And then after 3-4 years you cut it and then another 3-4 years
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you let it dry. It's, it's not instantaneous.
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And that's the big mistake. Other boys do they cut it and
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dry it for a little bit and you know, or, and start working away
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with it, you know, or they don't know, recognize the aids of the
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bump. It's very hard to recognize how
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old the pole is. You know, quite often you see
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this beautiful green pole, say, man, that's a good looking pole.
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You cut it, but that's only from from spring that, that from the
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previous year, you know, the spring growth.
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So it's really soft. So when it dries, it's rifles up
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and and it or it doesn't have the strength of resilience.
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So you look and is it OK? Is it hard to grow or in my
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experience it it propagates very easily is that?
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The case in Northern. Georgia.
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It's not hard to grow bomber, but it it's extremely work
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intensive if you want to maintain it as a workable farm.
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That means you can spend a lot of time cleaning, you know,
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cleaning the on the crowd out, you know, thinning it out so
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that it needs it needs to be spaced when he eats pole so they
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don't damage it or each other. And, and unfortunately in
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America, it's almost nationwide is in is in fungus disease.
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And I have it a little bit too. So I'm really trying to open it
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up, keep it open so the soil itself can dry out.
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So that kills that fungus. Then the climate is changing.
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We have, believe it or not, I had to put irrigation in my
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bamboo. We get those droughts for, for
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six weeks, 6-7 weeks drought, mini droughts.
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And we're sending soil. It gets so dry and it's so hot
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here, you know, up in the 90s. And if you don't get rain for
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weeks on end, it's way too, way too hard on the bamboo.
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And so, you know, you got to keep an eye on it.
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Yeah. And the difference in the giant
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timber Madake bamboo versus other large bamboos, again in
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like Costa Rica, we have a lot of bamboos that are growing 5060
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feet thick, as thick, thick as an arm, but that's is that not
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usable for bow making? No, I think it is not for the
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Japanese bow. Maybe, maybe it could be you
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could use some of the bamboo for the core, the inside, OK,
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because you know how the cord is built, vertical strips of bamboo
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and hardwood. There was some tropical, I've
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got the name of the particular bamboo, but I'm sure crossing
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Puerto Rico, it's very hard. Colombia has a lot of it.
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You could make laminations out of for fibreglass bowls.
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That seems to be a good quality bamboo.
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But again, The thing is, cut it. You're at the Rite Aid and cure
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it. That seems to be the biggest
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problem. A long time ago, my, my, my
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sense of censorship bar warned me already.
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You know, you can, you can buy lots and lots and lots of
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bamboo, you know, from China, from any EU, you name it.
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The thing is, it's cute overnight by bleaching it and
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it's too brittle, just bright. So you just if you follow
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certain rules, I'm sure more than more bamboos you can use.
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However, the madaka lends itself to the backing so much because
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the for the especially for the Japanese balls because the joint
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has to fall on certain spots and you know, madaka is almost made
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for that. Incredible.
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So after you did you meet Kenjo Shabato in 1983?
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Yes. Yeah.
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And when did you start? Kudo Kudo has started the
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problem was 949394. His dad was still alive then,
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you know, so I learned from him with many years Kudo, you know,
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and and we called, we called back of in the 90s, let's say by
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90s by 1990, the early years. And I would almost go every
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other year, say, say for weeks on end in Japan and and learn,
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you know. So you started Kyoto in the
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early 90s, Kyoto being Japanese archery.
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Yes, I do. What did you do?
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What did you do in the meantime? From 83 until the early 90s were
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you making bows with? I I started with regular
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recurves, recurves bows, American flat bows, a lot of
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self bows. Oh, say Sorens, you, you long
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bows, you name it. I made almost any bow.
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Of course, I do a lot of new bag bows, Turkeys, the Mongolians.
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You know, I could say I was one of The Pioneers in North
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America, me and a good friend of mine, Lucas Novaki, we were
18:59
really pioneers in in doing the Turkish bowl, sinu backing and
19:04
horn bows. And now you know, it's
19:07
everywhere. Now look, look at China.
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This is a funny story. So we in early night, let's say
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1999, we started a big festival, big archery festival in bold in,
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in Fort Dodge, IA. It was international, we called
19:27
it international horseback archery and we had people from
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Mongolia, from Betar, from China, from Japan, Native
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Americans, etcetera, etcetera. And then one year, Stephen Selby
19:39
from Hong Kong, you probably know of his, his name, Stephen
19:43
Selby that I wanted to book on Chinese archery.
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And anyway, he, he did a similar thing in Hong Kong for, for an
19:51
opening of a museum and he had a lot of archery supplies.
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He supplied a lot of archery equipment to show there.
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And then I met Mr. Hsu. Mr. Hsu.
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Is the trainer of the Olympic teams of China and he was he and
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his wife were both before the Olympics and then with the
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Olympics were champion, champion medalist.
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Then he got his interests came back to traditional archery.
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So in 19, Yeah. So that was 2003.
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And when we were there, I did. I did.
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Stephen asked me to do a demonstration, opening
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demonstration. It's a kudo.
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And Chinese people came, young people, young people came
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running up to me saying do we have any history of bow and
20:48
arrow in our country? Oh, that took me back for a
20:52
moment because, you know, it's so rich, rich, rich culture.
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But it all disappeared. And then later on I met Mr. Hsu
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and how he liked to revise the, the nutrition Archardini and he
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asked me to make a bow for China and, and, and you know, the type
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of bow. So I made a type of bow, not an
21:15
not AC shape, but the horn bow. And then in oh so many years
21:19
later, we've had the big bow exchange in in Beijing and that
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boy is went all over China, you know, incredible.
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It was one of my highlights, you know, being invited in Beijing
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to they have to pick both exchange and et cetera, et
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cetera, met better people who really, really wanted to build
21:44
the Chinese art. In fact, they were asking me if
21:46
I won't want to come help them out in China, say no, I don't
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want to work anymore. He said little, no, you're not
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going to work. You're going to super fast, you
21:56
know, factories for making laminations in both factories,
22:00
etcetera, etcetera. You know, and now we're now a
22:03
China, you know, it's been blossoming the actually
22:07
manufacturing. So that's the interesting story.
22:11
Wow, that's incredible. So are you?
22:14
Do you ever still make self bows?
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Or are you only making you me bows now you?
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Know what just lately one of the neighbor neighbor men my
22:25
neighbors can buy awesome. If I want to teach you how to
22:29
make a self or I said sure, why not then I start teaching him
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and say I'd be darned. I have been a while that I made
22:37
a self both. So I start making a self both
22:40
myself. So yeah.
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And I got a few. You stave still with her.
22:47
What kind of beef? 30 some years old that I got
22:51
them. But those cut, those cut cuts in
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the early 1920s, I think, Uri. Anyway, they're really old, old
23:00
juice days, that quality ain't. You can tell them, you know,
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I'll still have some. And I, yeah, one of these, I'm
23:07
going to make me himself a couple of nights.
23:09
You long bows or Osage or you know, it's something else.
23:13
I'm slowing down, you know. So for commercial bows, I don't
23:17
supply any more fiberglass or, or anything.
23:21
You know, right now I strictly do do the Japanese bows and, and
23:26
the arrows and I'm finishing all the horn bows.
23:29
And then I, I also, I'm not taking orders on horn on horn
23:34
bows because it takes me 345 weeks to finish them all like
23:37
that. And you know, I'm 73, so I'm
23:41
looking at almost being 80 when I finish the bows.
23:44
So that's too long. So, but I, I will make some of
23:49
course, I kind of still keep making bows, but on mine, on my
23:55
agenda, you know, my time. Same with flight boats.
23:58
I'm making, making flight boats and some of the with the motor
24:01
materials. I enjoy that because you have to
24:04
be so much on the ball to so precise.
24:07
So I kind of enjoyed that. And where do you practice with
24:12
the flight boats or do you compete with them as well?
24:16
Well, practice the practice you can do actually the practice you
24:20
can do at the in the torque, which is only a couple of meters
24:24
away at an angle. Because to me, the critical part
24:28
is get the body memory of release.
24:31
And if that release is no good, it's a little bit off like like
24:35
the Japanese archery, you're not going to get the distance.
24:38
So you need to practice, practice, practice, practice.
24:41
And now with some some fellows from the Chinese archery
24:47
program, they started the school, Tian Ma Pian Mas School
24:52
and some of them are picking up flights because they can pull
24:56
100 pound £120 bows. I said Oh my God.
25:00
So I told them say hey, you can pull such a strong bow now.
25:04
Now what? So you got to do something with
25:07
that. So getting some of them
25:10
interested in flight shooting. And it's a you need to practice
25:14
that a close up target, get the total ease of body memory, be in
25:19
complete harmony with your body and stop that brain and just
25:23
shoot, you know, without thinking about anything.
25:26
It could be precise. And that's, that's really the
25:28
training you ought to do for flight shooting because it's
25:32
almost impossible. It's almost impossible to shoot
25:36
a long distance, you know, especially with short arrows.
25:40
You know, you kind of go to salt flats.
25:43
That's, that's the, the salt flats or yeah, salt flats
25:47
different. I don't know if you have them in
25:49
Canada, probably you have some, but because that arrow will
25:53
stick out, you know, half a mile away and then you can find it.
25:56
Yeah, yeah, I was. I was there last year on the
25:59
salt flats with my daughter and and Chuck Loffler.
26:03
I don't know if you know Chuck Loffler.
26:04
Chuck Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been the last.
26:07
I've been there ever. Secondly, ever since Cope, I had
26:10
both my wife and I were kind of took back out of it.
26:13
But now I'm trying to bring other people back into the
26:17
flights within. But oh, yeah, I know.
26:19
Chuck Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I haven't been there for
26:23
the last few years. So with the bow making Yumi
26:28
bows, what a lot of people I've interviewed talk about for
26:32
example, like the English Longbow, and they find it gets a
26:34
little bit too repetitive to make those over and over again.
26:37
And I feel like the Yumi bow would potentially fall into a
26:40
similar category. It's it seems very process
26:44
oriented stepwise and with in my experience very limited
26:49
experience, there's not a whole lot of variation on the bows.
26:52
Do you find that or in my I'm missing something?
26:56
You're missing something. There is no unique thing.
27:00
Even though you use the same measurements, they're all all
27:04
different today. The way they feel, the way they,
27:09
the way that fiber wants to stretch.
27:12
No, I haven't found any. I'm not bored with the Japanese
27:16
bow at all, actually. Actually, you got to be.
27:19
It's quite intensive mentally to, to make it 100% correct.
27:24
And it's always a surprise. Now the only things I don't
27:28
like, I don't like making lagbose like 8K, you know, 810
27:32
kilos. Those are to me it's like how to
27:35
shape paper, you know, but that I don't do.
27:41
And unfortunately I can't do the real strong, strong, strong
27:44
goals anymore. I mean, there is one, I think
27:47
it's got to be 60 kilos. Oh God, I can't string them
27:52
anymore so. Yeah.
27:54
But no, I really enjoy making the hummis and I really enjoy
27:59
making the bamboo arrows because again, it's very intensive and I
28:04
like that. What do you use for the feathers
28:09
on your arrows? I use Turkey, goose, swan and
28:17
Peacock. Hard to combat people feathers
28:20
these days, but mainly natural feathers.
28:23
They're natural, not processed feathers in different colours,
28:26
but just feathers I get a lot of my neighbors always bring me
28:30
Turkey feathers. It reminds me of the older days
28:34
when I was in Canada. I wake up in the winter time,
28:38
you know, I open the door, there's a whole bag of moon legs
28:41
because a lot of hunters knew that I needed sinu.
28:45
You can, you know, in those days there was no Internet or you
28:48
know, nobody was supplying. You had to supply everything
28:50
yourself. So the word get out.
28:52
And the hunters, they love it when they can share instead of
28:56
throwing away. I'll find a bag of day like
28:58
moons legs, Caribou legs, I don't know what time and happily
29:02
clean them out and dry the Sinu and everybody hunts around so I
29:10
get Turkey feathers. Awesome.
29:17
So when you started making bows, I guess in the early 80s, how
29:22
long did it take before this became something more than just
29:26
a hobby or a pastime? Oh, right away, 1987, as soon as
29:31
my my wife got a job. That's what I said, you know, I
29:35
said I kind of make full time, full time ball making and you
29:41
know, so it's 87. I'm being full time. 87 OK. 83
29:47
to 87 was just, you know, enjoying it enjoying making it
29:52
been my friend or a cross stick maker.
29:55
His name is Matthew A Chen. He's no more.
29:58
But you know, I would drive over and he knew so much about wood.
30:05
Oh my God. One of those old timers, you
30:08
know, walks in the boots, can't recognize anything about the
30:11
woods, you know, So that was that was nice to hang around
30:15
with him. I did the same thing actually
30:19
with Japan. I would call up with Japan and
30:21
say, are you harvesting? I was already well established
30:24
here in growing my own bamboo. Are you harvesting bamboo this
30:28
year? So you might have to come out or
30:31
you got to work. So that's fine.
30:34
We always joke, you know. So I go over to Japan and people
30:37
said, why are you going to go to Japan for cutting bamboo?
30:39
You know how to do this year. I know how to do it, but I want
30:43
to look. I want to see what he's looking
30:46
at. He's looking at that.
30:47
Oh, I have to look at that. He's feeling that.
30:49
Oh, I have to feel that. You know what I mean?
30:52
I want to take it in What, what, what, what, what he knows and
30:56
what he what he's looking at. So you know, those kind of
30:59
things. You know, that's how I learn.
31:03
And you never stop learning. You'll never stop learning.
31:08
Yeah, that's incredible. How did you get to the point
31:12
where you in 87 where you actually had an audience for
31:16
your bows where you could I were you selling bows by that time?
31:19
Yeah, I start. I hadn't made a bow yet.
31:22
Sold 1 already. Anyway, I started making first
31:29
the long bows, the laminated long bows and then the, you
31:36
know, there were a lot of archery suits going, going on
31:39
bow clubs and archery suits. So, you know, I started to know
31:45
people and then people say, oh, you're going to come with me to
31:47
this big shoot in Michigan, in Michigan, you know, the the
31:50
Crate Lake Longbow shoot. Then it became the primitive
31:53
shoot. And anyway, a lot of old times I
31:57
met there and so it it's starting to roll almost by
32:04
itself. And before you knew you got a
32:07
waiting list. And then very early on I started
32:11
to make the Mongolian, they call it horse bows.
32:15
I don't like the term at all, but I was doing those kind of
32:18
bows already in 90 what 9392 already 48 inches level curve
32:25
hunters from love them. You know, in those days, a lot
32:28
of the hunters were just, you know, scouting around, walking
32:31
around and, and it was ideal to walk through the boots with
32:34
those bows and oh, everybody was shooting sixty 7080 LB bows in
32:39
those days. So I learned how to make good
32:42
strong bows. I got known to make strong bows,
32:46
cell bows, bubble bows. You know, I got known even with
32:50
Japanese bows, you know, I'm making strong bows.
32:52
I got known for that. So how did you learn?
32:57
I know you had Kendra Shabato to teach you Yumi's.
33:00
How did you learn to make the horn bows and the self bows and.
33:04
Yeah, with, with sense, I want, I, I go there and I just sit and
33:11
I watch. That's how I learned he he
33:15
taught me you do this, you do that to that like worship, you
33:18
know, far from it, but he let me come and watch.
33:22
I mean, and that's how traditional people work anyway
33:26
and and the horn bows learnt all myself self bows learnt myself
33:31
like Co institute Co inefficient, you know, endorses
33:35
was a revival of primitive, what they call a primitive bows.
33:38
And, you know, talk with the guys, see how they do it.
33:41
And you know, I remember this kid making bows.
33:44
And so just from one thing comes another thing.
33:48
And try to improve, improve, improve, improve, improve.
33:52
And now this is all before there were videos and YouTube and all
33:57
the stuff, you know, barely any books at all were around.
34:01
But anyhow, somehow I believe not actually I dream like some.
34:05
Sometimes I learn by dreaming it and then I quickly have to
34:09
memorize my dreams. I should write it down by a
34:12
dinner. But anyway, try it out and
34:15
that's how I learned. A lot of this stuff sounds
34:18
perfect through your dreams, but it's true.
34:24
That's incredible. So in the Japanese tradition
34:28
with Sensei Shibato, you, you just watched him for how long?
34:33
How many hours, Months. Years.
34:35
I'm surprised when you get sick of me.
34:39
I've been sitting the whole day. He's working there, you know,
34:43
and I know enough because I hung around with British people for a
34:47
long time. You don't talk.
34:49
And so one moment he said, Yapson, where are you from?
34:53
I said, well, you know, from America.
34:55
No, you're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:56
I'll live there. Because what it is, you know,
35:00
the amount of people, they always ask questions, Talk,
35:03
talk, talk, talk. Well with Japanese and other
35:07
traders, we start talking pretty soon all the work is put aside
35:10
to sit down and start talking to you because that looks like what
35:13
you're interested in doing talking.
35:15
So, so I just watch them and then sometimes I would ask a
35:20
question like during lunch or evening time.
35:24
And then what he really, he did go out of his way to teach me
35:28
the lacquer work, the Japanese lacquer, Urusi, and boy, and
35:34
that's another art. You know what the urushi is?
35:36
Japanese lacquer. I bet I just the work that I did
35:40
with Stefan, I was introduced to it.
35:42
OK, so that's another life lifelong study.
35:46
And like I say, I was no, not allergic to it.
35:50
And then, you know, he he took me on the swing and like I could
35:56
watch them again, you know, watching the special room where
35:59
they do the the certain type of arrows or the balls with the
36:03
with the locker and then learn that, you know, and I would go,
36:08
you know, many, many times. Just the last few.
36:12
Ever since Co fighter, I really haven't travelled anymore much
36:16
So and it connects too old. I don't feel like sitting on the
36:18
plane anymore. Then since I like next month,
36:21
he's will be here. You know, we were doing a kudo
36:26
programming and you know, the Sudan or talk about certain
36:32
things and so you know, it's good.
36:36
You know, it's been good. So you still have a strong
36:40
relationship with Sensei? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:42
He's our teacher. He's our kudo teacher.
36:45
And then what? What the dosha, the temple
36:48
shooting competition. That's you know, he's really
36:54
pushing helping us out by you know, I thought what it is may
37:00
maybe several decades ago the his dad Sendai Shibata.
37:08
It was a monstrous demonstration of rapid firing and now look at
37:12
that release Abidan that might be really good for flight
37:15
shooting. So it at at the right time, I
37:20
asked the the the the can I learn?
37:26
Can you teach me how to do that demonstration, how to that
37:30
release, how to shoot that? And he told me why.
37:34
He asked me why. And then I explained, I do
37:37
flight shooting. Yes, that will work.
37:40
I'm willing to teach you that and and it's not cheap.
37:44
You know, in those days had to go to Japan.
37:47
You're going to start with five bowls and some, you know, need
37:51
50 arrows right away to practice to practice that the close up
37:55
target non-stop shooting. And now after many years, just
37:59
the one fellow elderly man and me were by ourselves.
38:03
Then one unit says sometimes I got this place.
38:06
It's ideal for the for the competition.
38:13
He said do it. That's how he said do it.
38:17
So we start hacker, I start building it and then and and
38:21
Dojo in Boston, a lot of the people from Boston Dojo the
38:25
young got really interested in it.
38:28
So we got now about 810 people and then that would he's go
38:34
censored publicly taught the Japanese kudo.
38:40
Our, our school, you know, that is this is part of our this part
38:46
of the, the fundamentals of our school is this dosha, the
38:50
competition shooting. And some of the humans we use
38:55
cut, well cut born out of that out of that period, the
38:58
equipment, the gloves, the strings, the, the humans, you
39:02
know, the humans is a little little bit different if you know
39:06
what you're looking at. Otherwise you'll never know it.
39:09
And so he's now throwing his full, full support behind us.
39:14
So every year now Ioffer a class bamboo arrow making because I
39:19
need the thousand 2000 arrows for that group.
39:22
So I offer a classic arrow making and the cost of the arrow
39:26
making workshop is 2 hours. Every morning you help me clean
39:30
out the bamboo probes. And then the rest of the day we
39:34
spend time on making arrows and we do a little bit of kudo in
39:37
between and boy, so they'll learn how to make errors for
39:42
themselves. However, how many they make for
39:45
themselves. You have to make as many for the
39:48
group to bring here as a group you can use as practice and
39:54
works really well. And I'm pretty happy here with
39:57
that. That's.
39:59
Incredible how many people come come typically to make arrows
40:04
with you. I stop it by 8.
40:07
It's now waiting list, you know, but some of the regulars, so
40:12
there's like a lesson one year, one O one O 1, then 21 level 2,
40:18
Level 3. Look for now there's some they
40:20
they're really getting into the making the spliced arrows, the
40:23
flight shooting arrows. You know what?
40:25
Because we do flight shooting too.
40:26
And then with the Japanese bows and all need different kind of
40:29
arrows, very complicated arrows. So they connect to that level
40:33
and that's how I'm passing it, passing on this whole arrow of
40:37
making. Because even in Japan, if nobody
40:41
used it, they might know about it.
40:43
I'm sure the older generation knows about it.
40:46
But if nobody, if you can't making, if you don't make them
40:51
and the next generator don't make them, they're losing that
40:54
like again, body memory and you know, then it's all just book
40:59
knowledge and that's it. So now actually there are quite
41:03
a few people who started to learn how to make complicated
41:06
bamboo arrows. So I'm, I'm a little bit proud
41:09
of that, happy about that. That's amazing.
41:13
You should be proud of that definitely carrying on the
41:16
legacy and the tradition, which is incredible.
41:19
Can you for those a lot of people who listen to this
41:22
podcast are primitive bow years of self bows.
41:24
That's kind of what I I focus on the most and my passions.
41:29
Can you describe what a Yumi bow is, how it's comprised, the
41:34
layers and whatnot? So you mean it's a it's a bamboo
41:40
composite bow, and a composite means the outer layers of the
41:46
back and belly are bamboo. You don't shave the skin side.
41:51
Then you make a core and the core is a vertical lamination.
41:56
And usually there's hardwood on the on the sides and there may
41:59
be 345 strip bamboo in between. But sometimes you can have a
42:05
centrepiece of wood in between 2:00.
42:07
So the the core can be many variations on a team and the bow
42:12
is about 200, let's say from 221 to 227.
42:18
Those are the most common yummies.
42:21
There's a longer one and there's also some shorter ones.
42:25
And the shape of the bow. Well, everything like you have
42:33
to taper the bamboo, you know, the core, the core needs to be
42:35
tapered precisely because once you glue the bamboo on, you
42:40
can't do nothing with the core. So the, the core needs to be
42:43
tapered, but also the outside bamboo you need to, you need to
42:48
make the inside flat and also taper it.
42:51
And so that's, that's a difficult learning curve.
42:58
Then when you put it together, I don't have a picture, but I use
43:03
the rope and wetter. So you wrap it with a rope, you
43:08
go one way, maybe the inch part, then you come back, cross over
43:14
the centre on the back and belly.
43:16
And then you put the wetters in there.
43:19
You set the curve and the wedges at the same time.
43:24
So you glue, put the glue, put it together, you know, wrap it.
43:27
Then you just put the wedges in there.
43:29
And while you said so many wedges this way, you bend it,
43:33
hammer the wedges tighter so the curve will stay and you go down
43:38
till you finish the whole bowl. It's a quite a little flux in
43:41
the bowl and you let it dry and then make sure it's straight of
43:46
course. And then next day you take it
43:49
all apart. You know, take the vet yourself
43:50
out the rope off cleaned up and then carve the knocks and taper
43:55
a little bit the sides. You know, clean it up and string
43:58
it for the first time and that's will tell if you screwed up or
44:01
not. Then when you string the ball
44:08
with thick string and you it's hard to explain what the correct
44:13
shape should be, but you make the correct shape with the top
44:17
curve, with the lower curve and the centre D flex.
44:21
Then you leave that bow strong for a week or 10 days.
44:25
So the bamboo in the core cut that muscle memory and then then
44:31
actually after 10 days, then you finish the bowl.
44:37
Right, very labour intensive. But like a horn bow, if you
44:41
don't use the bow, that bow will go back to its to big, big, big
44:45
reflex. And that's where sometimes
44:48
people run in problems because they don't know how to string
44:50
the bow when it's, it's a high reflex, they string it, but then
44:53
the sideways and this way and that way.
44:56
So you're pushing the bow a little bit out of shape and then
44:59
they can, they can put it back in shape.
45:01
So part of the CUDA programs we do, we always go over the over
45:07
the over the bow. How make simple corrections,
45:10
What is the proper shape of the bow, how you know how to string
45:13
the bow, etcetera, etcetera. And so the each student should
45:18
know that and learn that process.
45:21
Yes, yes, I can tell you from a limited experience it's very
45:25
different stringing than you mean it is my other bows.
45:29
Yeah, yeah. We don't have long arms.
45:33
Yeah, yeah. It's it's, it's kind of kind of
45:36
scary to do actually, but yeah. Yeah.
45:39
Yeah, the, the wedge is setting the curve with the bamboo
45:42
wedges. It's such a beautiful process.
45:44
And, and our forthcoming book, my daughter has so many
45:46
beautiful photos of Stefan putting the wedges into the umes
45:50
and it's, it's such a unique thing.
45:53
I've never seen that in any other form of, of bow making
45:56
before. And it's, it's just so beautiful
45:58
to see that tradition, which is what, 2500 years old, is that
46:02
right? I don't know if it's 25, but at
46:07
least a couple couple of thousand.
46:09
I mean, it's old. It's not only the Japanese who
46:13
did that. There are some tribal in Siberia
46:17
who use a similar method. And I'm confident, I'm convinced
46:21
when you look at the Egyptian bows in the laminations or other
46:26
complex laminations. Well, how do you tighten?
46:28
I'm confused that knowledge less other people had that too, you
46:33
know, with rope and witches, but the but the Japanese kept it
46:37
like so many things. The Japanese, you know, rope
46:40
making, you know, old tools or stroke making and I love it.
46:45
You know, they it's respected and I like that.
46:52
Yeah. Do you think that any of the
46:54
knowledge of that spread along the like the Silk Route?
46:59
I know what I'm at. I'm also a practitioner of
47:02
traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture.
47:05
And acupuncture has been found in cultures not just in in Asia,
47:10
but elsewhere too. And it seems a lot of it spread
47:13
along the Silk Route. So I'm wondering if that
47:16
happened also with the Bose and the knowledge.
47:18
I, I think so. I think so I think let's say,
47:23
let's, let's take the world 3000 years ago.
47:27
I think all over the world people did the same thing.
47:30
Look now Fast forward 2000 years ago, everybody has iPhones or in
47:34
the 1990s or 70s, like 1970s, sixties, you know with The
47:39
Beatles, everybody all over the world, Australia to listen to
47:42
the same kind of music. It looks like when I stop,
47:45
people start making big buildings was in Europe,
47:48
pyramids here in North America, everywhere in the world, we're
47:52
we're into big making big buildings.
47:54
So I think somehow I think I don't know what it is what makes
47:59
the world. The world is round, right?
48:01
I think things just roll around every people are are influencing
48:07
each other and and it's ripe for that kind of thing.
48:09
So I, I, I think so. I think like the medicine you
48:12
you're talking about and being sensitive to music, the tone,
48:17
you know, the tones of sound, you know, I, I think so.
48:22
I think so. Yeah, Now I think my first
48:26
introduction to Kyodo and Japanese archery in general was
48:31
probably through the book Zen and the Art of Archery by Eugene
48:33
Harrigal. Yeah.
48:35
Do you ever read that book? Yes, I did.
48:38
Yes I did. Many years later, but yes, I did
48:44
that as I did. Yeah, I enjoyed did.
48:49
You spend, Yeah. Did you spend countless hours in
48:53
dojos in Japan learning Kyoto? Oh, not countless hours, but
48:57
whenever I would go visit the, you know, sometimes there's and
49:04
you the participant and they ask me, you like shooting and say,
49:07
yeah, let's go to the Dojo. So some of the old man's would
49:13
take me way out to the mountains.
49:14
You know, there's a nice, nice little Dojo.
49:17
We go do the Kyoto. And then of course in Kyoto
49:22
itself, there's dojos there. And I would just bicycle to the,
49:26
to the Dojo, you know, with the Umis.
49:29
And it's kind of, you know, you go on the bicycle with, with
49:32
the, with the bows and air with everybody.
49:38
Japan is kind of, you know, everybody respected.
49:42
You know, they don't hassle you. They know what it is and they
49:45
appreciate it and such fun. Man, I even that reminds.
49:51
I even buy something in Tokyo. Really.
49:57
I don't know what I was thinking but.
50:01
That story reminds me of of another what I think is a great
50:05
book on Japanese archery, which is The Archer by Paulo Coelho.
50:08
Have you have you read that novella?
50:13
Don't think so. OK, Yeah, Paulo Coelho wrote
50:16
that in that was in 20/20/20 and it's.
50:25
Just. It's a just a very one in Paulo
50:29
Quelo style. It's a very short, beautiful
50:31
story of a a boy who discovers a furniture maker in his village
50:37
who is actually a master Kyoto practitioner.
50:40
And he never let on, he never told anybody about it.
50:43
And so the the boy convinces him to to teach him.
50:46
And so the master eventually agrees.
50:49
And the story is just their little journey out into the
50:52
forest, shooting on a a swinging bridge over a ravine.
50:56
It's very interesting. Great, great.
51:03
Yeah. So with all the bows that you
51:07
made the bow carving, has archery played the actual
51:11
practice of archery? Is that had also an equally
51:13
important place in your life or has it been more bow carving?
51:17
Definitely, you know, special Japanese archery.
51:21
Then with the horn bows, you know, it's time to practice
51:25
flight shooting. And now of course, we have to
51:32
join my school, the Chinese archery.
51:34
It's now already 2 and 14 years already they come in and
51:39
practice. You know, we have the this is
51:42
they consider this the headquarter, the headquarters
51:45
here, you know, but I don't practice much lately.
51:52
Kind of a little bit hasty, but yeah, it's a big part of, you
51:55
know, a lot, a lot. But Kudo Kudo is really the my
51:59
main main main focus on art free and.
52:03
Although it. Stops teaching you things.
52:07
Yeah, I really love, I've never done Kyoto, so I just want to be
52:11
clear about that. I have my Yumi bow, but as I
52:13
said, I've never even shot it. But I really love the philosophy
52:17
behind Kyoto and how in Japan, archery is still this beautiful
52:21
martial art with tradition behind it.
52:24
And I think that's been, in my experience, that's been mostly
52:27
lost throughout most other cultures.
52:29
And I love that Japan has preserved that so closely to
52:34
what I think it's been for millennia.
52:36
Yeah, that Turkey is rediscovering.
52:40
Of course China is rediscovering their traditions.
52:42
I mean, I got some interesting stories about the Cultural
52:45
Revolution, how some of the families hit their precious
52:50
archery stuff, you know, And then Persia is also
52:58
rediscovering then of course the, the horseback archery.
53:03
Now I, I have to say you, I got a tiny little finger in this
53:07
whole worldwide movement. I just not bragging.
53:12
Of course Korea has kept this tradition, but we started the
53:17
International Festival in Fort Darts where we allow the
53:21
different nations from you know, like Korea, Japan, etcetera,
53:24
etcetera, etcetera. And in fact, once we brought a
53:28
very traditional Japanese horseback archery school, Takeda
53:33
school over. And anyhow, passport like I came
53:40
in 2003, we in the evening time we had dinner with China,
53:45
Bhutan. There was a Korean the Korean
53:48
delegation when there was matters we were talking about
53:50
the one Korea especially Korea wanted to do something because
53:54
Korea then in those days had only one kind of artery, the
53:59
long distance shooting. And he said looks like you guys
54:01
are so much fun. So that puzzling what they can
54:04
do. I say, well, I say we we start
54:08
talking. He can do similar to what you
54:10
see what we're what what Stephen who who copied of what what we
54:16
were doing in Fort Dodge, IA. And so you can do that.
54:20
I said the only thing you got to do is put a tiny little bit of
54:24
competition in there because the man folk, they want to look good
54:28
for the front of the woman. So you kind of put that little,
54:32
little challenge there. And Korea, you know, when we
54:36
started, we stopped for that and Korea took over big time.
54:42
The whole artery festivals and then you know people, Kurdistan,
54:47
Mongolia, everybody came there. So everybody started doing 2014
54:51
China started doing the big festivals.
54:53
That's where I met. No, my wife was the first she
54:57
did. She met Justin in G, who you
54:59
know from the Chinese archery. And then later years that's
55:04
everybody started doing the big festivals and a lot of times
55:08
they invited us, but a little bit later it's travelling now
55:15
so. I'm amazed at how much impact
55:19
and influence you've had. And it's a beautiful thing.
55:22
It's it's incredible Here. I could listen to these stories
55:25
for hours and hours. You have so much, so much wisdom
55:30
to share. What has what?
55:34
What are some of the most critical lessons that you've
55:37
learned from bow making? Never take anything for granted.
55:45
He put his beautiful ball together, string it up, bang
55:51
blows up and be humble. There's always 1.
55:56
You know, some people strut around, you know, blah blah blah
55:59
blah blah. But you never know who's you
56:02
never know who's standing in front of you, you know, Stay
56:06
humble and listen to people and learn because some, some of the
56:12
old times, oh, like I can't tell you a story.
56:14
So when I just started to become a full time bow maker in kit in
56:20
Yavatalu Waterloo, ON, it was a big festival market and in
56:28
indoor where we could show art and crafts or whatever, you
56:32
know. So I always twice a week a set
56:36
up shop and working bows and herself bows usually because you
56:39
can easily work all day and listen to people at a little
56:43
archery store at the market there, you know.
56:46
Anyway, here are a couple of old timers talking about the
56:49
standing there just watching me and they talk among us about the
56:53
wood. They talk about this kind of
56:55
wood that would then they start talking about second growth and
56:59
eat some some cracker. Listen to them.
57:01
You know, they think they know everything about this and that,
57:04
you know, they were not fooling. You'd say they were talking
57:09
about, you know what second crowd wood is.
57:13
Yeah. OK.
57:14
So, so that's really you can a lot of traditional people
57:20
actually would compass the wood like Europe and in America
57:24
everywhere really and that next shoot what comes up from the
57:28
original 3 is superior in its flexibility and compression and
57:35
straightness etcetera, etcetera, quality.
57:37
That's what they were telling me.
57:39
So you know, just listen to what people have to say.
57:42
There's always something I didn't know that, you know, you
57:45
learn something. So stay humble.
57:48
Don't judge people by the clothing, you know, I'll learn
57:51
that too, you know. And so it's been fun, you know,
57:57
it's been a lot of fun meeting one thing.
58:01
You don't get rich by making both.
58:03
But I tell you, you get rich by so many friends.
58:07
You make so many, many, many friends and people you get to
58:10
know. And that's the richness of
58:13
learning a craft and archeries, especially one of them.
58:19
Absolutely. In your workshop with your bow
58:22
carping. What tools are you using mostly?
58:26
Well, I have two. I have two departments, one shop
58:31
that's have my bencher. I'm a cleaner, so bencher
58:35
cleaner and a big antique, huge unpaidly belt tender.
58:40
Stefan, we can tell you about it.
58:43
If you sneeze when your fingers slide off, your finger is gone.
58:47
It's not powerful, but I cut from a friend called Lacrosse
58:53
stick maker. So anyway, I still use that and
58:57
I I can make actually crying lamps or not to I can't say
59:01
1000, but I can't get them very, very precise.
59:03
But anyway, so that's what I depends how you know, I could
59:07
either the locks couldn't shape or cut the wood to shape what I
59:12
need, you know, and split them. Planer, planer.
59:16
Of course, I have the and then then the other shop.
59:21
That's what I have my hand tools, like planer knives, a lot
59:24
of knives I use. I know files good, good quality
59:30
rasps. And there's another thing don't
59:32
buy cheap. Buy the best hand to hand tools
59:34
you can get. And Europe has some good, good
59:37
hand tools, rasps and wood rasps and good knives.
59:43
All the good knife makers you know can find the so the
59:47
bumble's hard on metal. So I found of the years found a
59:52
knife maker who who almost like they're a part of the Japanese
59:55
knives and the station, but unfortunately he's no more
1:00:00
either. So, but I kind of know so at
1:00:04
last. And then I have some same paper
1:00:09
that's basically the tools I use.
1:00:14
And when people come to what? What's your farm called?
1:00:17
Do you have a name? No, people call the bamboo farm.
1:00:20
I don't really cable. No name to it.
1:00:25
OK. And when people, when people
1:00:28
come there for the archery events, are they also carving
1:00:31
bows or just doing, shooting or making arrows with you?
1:00:35
You know, it's the caliber like the Chinese Archer program, for
1:00:39
instance, the caliber of, of mind power, the caliber of
1:00:45
knowledge is unbelievable. They're all into, you know, high
1:00:51
electronics and things like that.
1:00:54
And, and they're looking for an outlet, an archery, not 3D
1:00:59
shooting or hunting, but they're looking for the discipline of
1:01:02
archery. So that's the calibre of
1:01:04
students that come here, even in the Japanese archery, a lot of
1:01:08
them are intellectually very, very, you know, high up in the,
1:01:13
in the profession. And but they're looking for that
1:01:16
outlet to do something. But then they want to learn a
1:01:19
discipline. Oh, no.
1:01:21
And Chinese actually lenses South, of course, the Japanese
1:01:24
archery. And they're both related to each
1:01:27
other. Then we did.
1:01:30
We did the Turkish workshop two years ago, flight shooting at
1:01:35
Burrato from Turkish. I don't know if you know Murat
1:01:38
or not. Heard of him?
1:01:40
No. OK, he's the master and he's a
1:01:45
knowledge. Most knowledgeable person I know
1:01:48
of in Turkish archery and that might be something a lot of the
1:01:53
fellows are interested in that too.
1:01:55
So maybe do that every other other year or so.
1:01:58
Because to run a program, it takes a lot of effort and a lot
1:02:01
of work, you know, because we feed them and you know, it's,
1:02:06
it's intensive for, for both my wife and I to to do that stuff.
1:02:11
We could, could help all the neighbors.
1:02:12
They love it. They're so they're so proud of.
1:02:16
They're very rural and they all come here to our little place in
1:02:20
Georgia. I know people from all over the
1:02:21
world come, you know, they're so happy that that is possible
1:02:26
instead of, you know, some place they're very negative either
1:02:29
very. Oh, they love it.
1:02:31
They love to see people succeed and they love the kind of things
1:02:34
we're doing here. So they if we can, if we need
1:02:37
help, you know, they help out just like that.
1:02:40
And a lot of the women help out Cave, their wife Cave with the
1:02:43
cooking. And so it's beautiful.
1:02:47
There's a whole community effort.
1:02:50
Wow, that sounds magical, I love that.
1:02:53
I would love to see it someday. Yeah, it is.
1:02:55
Yeah, you said from bow making you learn things such as
1:03:01
humility and not taking things for granted.
1:03:03
What have you learned from archery?
1:03:06
Well, basically the same thing. Archery.
1:03:11
Also, don't take it too serious. You gotta have fun.
1:03:16
You know, though, I mean, you can swing over too much to one
1:03:19
side and take it too seriously. Now, even in Japan, when you go
1:03:23
in Japan to a Dojo, it's not all serious.
1:03:26
You know, people talk with each other, have fun and laugh, blah,
1:03:29
blah, blah. You know, when it, when it's
1:03:30
time to be serious, OK, that's serious.
1:03:33
But when you're practicing and have fun and you know, do some
1:03:37
fun shooting also and things like that.
1:03:41
So that's what I tell. But you know, don't be too
1:03:44
serious and what I'm going from archery well, by by doing
1:03:51
archery like in decades ago where I'm coming through so many
1:03:54
of the shoots meet meet the OR especially the older generation,
1:04:01
you know, sharing knowledge how to make things, you know, but in
1:04:04
evening time, you know, everybody would be camping,
1:04:07
maybe maybe 1000 people camping anyway, you'll find friends to
1:04:10
sit around to campfire and people start talking how they do
1:04:14
the sinu. And if you run out of pipe clue,
1:04:17
you know, well, just go to the store, buy that how you call it
1:04:20
for Knox gelatin, you know, then I say, yeah, special strawberry
1:04:25
flavour is the best. You know, we would just go out
1:04:28
like that, you know, and that's how you learn.
1:04:31
You learn to if you don't have the right thing, you learn how
1:04:34
to do without all the necessary best of this, best of that.
1:04:40
And that's my sense. I in Japan, he very well
1:04:45
understood. We're not in Japan.
1:04:46
So if we have to use, we make use with the equipment or the
1:04:55
whatever is available. So we don't have the beautiful
1:04:58
targets. We use hay bales, we use a hay
1:05:02
Bale. That's all.
1:05:03
You know, don't make a don't make a fuss out of it.
1:05:05
And slowly, you know, you build up, get the proper equipment so
1:05:10
that I'll learn, you know, cope with what you have.
1:05:12
I've learned things with what you have and and never be
1:05:17
surprised when something that's odd.
1:05:21
You know when you make something that doesn't or arrow, believe
1:05:26
it or not, no, that was not my arrow, but we were at the
1:05:29
competition flight shooting and this guy make that was so funny.
1:05:34
And that year we had a lot of shooters.
1:05:36
I think that was that was 19/19/19.
1:05:40
What about 50 shooters? Anyway, there's one fellow that
1:05:43
arrows all six arrows that he shoots them and they come back
1:05:46
like a boomerang laughing. We were laughing a lot.
1:05:53
I said we want to give you medal for that one, you know.
1:05:58
So I think he put the weight too far back or something with the
1:06:04
flashing. But anyway, that was great,
1:06:07
great thing to just, you know, tricks you to.
1:06:10
Do so they would. Never knew how to do that.
1:06:15
So the arrows would literally arc in the air and come back
1:06:18
towards. Make a big arc, come back.
1:06:19
You still have to laugh. Yeah, well, maybe he set some
1:06:30
different type of records that day.
1:06:32
Yeah, things like that, you know, joke around and it's
1:06:36
great, but there's always new things to learn.
1:06:41
You know, the one of the most surprising things, sometimes you
1:06:44
meet people and you talk about, let's say you ask about bamboo,
1:06:48
you know what you want the qualities of bamboo, and then
1:06:52
you meet people. Well, I know enough.
1:06:56
I don't need to know more than than what he already knows.
1:06:59
And I think, but that's funny. You make a line in the sand, you
1:07:02
know, because there's a whole world out there anymore.
1:07:04
You don't even want to explore, you know?
1:07:07
So. So that's all sometimes.
1:07:09
You mean that too. That's kind of a big surprise.
1:07:11
People don't want to know more than than what they know.
1:07:15
Wow. Well, I can, I just love your
1:07:19
energy. I can, I can feel your passion
1:07:21
so much and just sitting here talking to you, it's, it's
1:07:26
getting me so excited about it. So thank you for boosting the
1:07:30
world with your passion and your knowledge about archery and bow
1:07:33
craft. It's incredible.
1:07:35
Thank you. Occasionally, occasionally when
1:07:37
you move your camera, I see some bows on the wall behind you.
1:07:40
Can you show us those? There are bows everywhere.
1:07:43
I don't know if there's some old times bows.
1:07:49
Yeah. Then I don't know, some Japanese
1:07:52
bows here. I'm working on a monster flight
1:07:56
boat. It's a little bit big, but that,
1:07:58
that's over 100 lbs. Some old bows.
1:08:01
Yeah, some boats. I mean, there are bows
1:08:04
everywhere you go. Incredible.
1:08:08
Now don't forget my vibe. I'm going to put a plug, but she
1:08:12
wrote an excellent biography about Harry Drake, the famous
1:08:15
fight shooter. And she cut several books out,
1:08:18
different era, different arrowheads and things like that.
1:08:21
You know, it's just been for years.
1:08:23
She would write for primitive Archer and really.
1:08:27
Yeah. And when you when primitive the
1:08:29
1st 10 years of primitive archery, you know, she would
1:08:32
write articles for that all the time and and other magazines.
1:08:37
This this is my kitchen table, my famous kitchen table in the
1:08:40
evening time I work, work on. I don't know.
1:08:44
I don't know, people always joke.
1:08:48
Let you it. Was just let you used to well,
1:08:51
it's it's just half of the kitchen table.
1:08:53
It's just two of us and I say you should she comes away for a
1:08:57
week. You know, you should see the
1:08:59
table then and me and some boys in the hall in England, you
1:09:03
know, we joke about it. OK must be Khan.
1:09:06
You know Hilary Greenland. You know of her Hilary
1:09:09
Greenland. The only theme?
1:09:11
Professional female English Longbow maker.
1:09:14
She's retired now, you know. But anyway, we would joke back
1:09:18
and forth, yeah. Wow, incredible.
1:09:26
You. You sound like a very wealthy
1:09:28
man. You've surrounded yourself with
1:09:30
things that you love and amazing people and experiences, and it's
1:09:34
a beautiful thing. Thank you.
1:09:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what they're actually
1:09:39
going to do, put your feet on the on the on the on the table
1:09:43
and hang in the couch and drink beer and watch TV.
1:09:47
No, you've definitely figured out some things.
1:09:51
Yeah, you figured out the secret to happiness.
1:09:53
I can tell. Do you have any anything else
1:09:56
you want to share or any questions before we sign off?
1:10:01
No, not really. I mean, you can have me talk for
1:10:04
another week, you know, Big position, I'm sure.
1:10:08
Well, maybe we should do this again.
1:10:10
An idea. Let me give you an idea.
1:10:13
And we got quite a lot of unusual bows.
1:10:20
So sometimes we could do a session just talk about one
1:10:24
particular bow, you know, let's say a Hanser bow, bow from
1:10:28
Hanser. We could talk.
1:10:29
And it does have to be long, you know, it could be in half an
1:10:31
hour. It's easy.
1:10:33
Talk about a particular bow or talk about some of the crab bows
1:10:37
or talk about the the Japanese bows or talk about some other
1:10:42
bows that might be something interesting for Yeah, I would
1:10:46
love. To do that, yeah, that would be
1:10:49
great. A little master class and
1:10:50
different styles of bows. Yeah, me and Lucas were thinking
1:10:53
about that sometime, you know, But then too much start
1:10:57
happening. You know who?
1:11:01
Lucas Novaki ISO, don't you? He's the famous horseback.
1:11:05
Now. Florida horn horn bow maker No
1:11:09
OK, He's one of the best, best best bow makers in North
1:11:13
America. Wow.
1:11:16
And he's in Florida, you said? Florida, yeah.
1:11:19
What's his last name? Novotny, Lucas.
1:11:23
Novotny. OK, I'll look him up.
1:11:27
Look him up. Awesome.
1:11:30
Anyway, he's, he's a check, check, you know, he's a really
1:11:33
quick temper, you know, and fire.
1:11:37
So one year he acquired a Turkish bow and actually a real
1:11:41
bow with a saw, but had seen oxen action, you know?
1:11:45
And he said, yeah, we go over and I strung it up.
1:11:48
I said, Lucas, what did you do? You strung it up.
1:11:50
But yeah, of course, I have to string it up.
1:11:53
So I want to see how it looks like.
1:11:54
I mean, I can always be so. But Lucas, this is a grandpa.
1:11:57
You don't want to ruin it anyway.
1:12:01
But anyway, then him and I, we both start looking at the bow
1:12:04
and my wife, we start looking in the bow.
1:12:06
We could see exactly what the bow maker was doing like had to
1:12:11
take a little bit off here or had to adjust here.
1:12:13
The the the signatures are left in the horn or, or like a salvo
1:12:19
that it's left in the woods. You can see with the telling
1:12:22
what what the bow maker was doing.
1:12:24
You know that that kind of things Demo vibes.
1:12:26
It's you know, you guys should talk.
1:12:29
We should make a, you know, like a video that's old fashioned now
1:12:33
video, but talk about the different bows and and video
1:12:36
that there is a lot of knowledge you guys can put out.
1:12:41
But you know, things happened, cold fight happened and then he
1:12:45
got big in the he's he's one of the the big archery competition,
1:12:49
horseback archery competitions. He always had to go to
1:12:52
worldwide, you know, so he was busy doing that.
1:12:55
And we have to, you know, just being busy.
1:12:58
Time, time flies. So anyway, never cut.
1:13:01
We never did it. That'd be a nice thing to do.
1:13:05
Well, I'd be happy to talk with you about that.
1:13:07
That sounds like a fun thing to do.
1:13:09
Think about it. Very valuable.
1:13:10
Set it up, you know. Yeah, sounds great.
1:13:13
Yeah. First, I'd love to do that.
1:13:16
Where can people learn more about you?
1:13:18
Yeah, if you want them to learn more about you, where can that
1:13:21
be? I.
1:13:22
Know hard to get you know, there's a website it's about
1:13:25
stone 8I I don't know that or not You know some friends in way
1:13:30
back in Milverton they were in that high tech stuff.
1:13:33
Someone make a video of it was a good I mean website, good
1:13:37
website. But like I say 99% of the stuff
1:13:41
what I don't do anymore. So how to contact me?
1:13:45
How did they phone me or e-mail? I'm still an e-mail user.
1:13:48
E-mail me or phone me. How they can be in contact with
1:13:51
me? Great, I really appreciate you
1:13:56
taking the time to do this. It's been very enjoyable.
1:13:59
Thank you for sharing. Just just the smallest bit of
1:14:01
your knowledge, but it's, it's so much and I would love to chat
1:14:04
with you some more. OK.
1:14:06
Thank you. Thanks for listening to Project
1:14:15
Quiver on Salish Wolf. Follow our journey on Instagram
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and YouTube at Project Quiver Official as we discover the
1:14:21
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1:14:27
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published by Trope, will be available in fall 2026.
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We are honored to share with you the beauty, tradition, and magic
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1:14:43
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