Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 881: Foundations - How to Suck Less at Shed Hunting

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Ep. 881: Foundations - How to Suck Less at Shed Hunting · Wired To Hunt Podcast

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Foundations podcast, your guide
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: to the fundamentals of better deer hunting, presented by first Light,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: creating proven versatile hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: First Light, Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Tony Peterson.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Everyone, welcome to the Wired to Hunt Foundation's podcast, which
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: is brought to you by first Light. I'm your host,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Tony Peterson, and today's episode is all about how to
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: suck less at chad hunting. You guys, Anne, I don't know, well,
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: probably like the three girls who listen to this show,
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: know how much I hate the disingenuous nature of outdoor
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: media and social media. I hate how easy things look
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: when in practice, most of what we do isn't that easy.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Quite frankly, a lot of what we do is just
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: like a step below impossible at some times. Chad hunting
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: isn't that, but it isn't nearly as easy as a
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: lot of people make it seen. There's sort of like
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: a I don't know, a couple different ways to approach
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: chedd hunting, some that require brute force determination and some
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: that require a little more of a tactical approach. But
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: you kind of got to work in most situations. But
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna talk about both of those tactics and some
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: other stuff right now. I didn't start duck hunting until
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: I got my first retriever when I was in my
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: mid twenties. I did about everything wrong that you could
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: with that dog, but she turned out to be impervious
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: to some of my shortfalls, at least when it came
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: to retrieving. She did. That Golden Retriever would literally retrieve anything.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: And while she wasn't the biggest go getter in the
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: pheasant slough unless she had a real snoop full of
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: fresh rooster scent in her schnas, she would bring me
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: anything I asked her to go get. She was kind
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: of like the dogs you read about from maybe sixty
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: or seventy years ago. Honestly, the hunting dog, like general
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: hunting dog that just went with you no matter what
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: you were going after, rabbit, squirrels, grouse, quail, pheasants, whatever
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: lux was with me, and if I shot it, she'd
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: go get it. That actually became real handy when I
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: started hunting rabbits in the North Country where the cottontails
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: and the snowshoe hares lived together until that dog. I
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: didn't realize how many rabbits I shot that actually ran
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: maybe ten to thirty or forty yards away before piling up.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: It was an eye opener, especially since a lot of
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: them would croak inside of a brush pile. As my
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: life progressed with lucks, I started to look for other
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: hunting opportunities and realized that where I live in the
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: suburbs is sort of a black hole for upland hunting
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: aside from woodcock, but it's pretty full of duck hunting
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: opportunities if you know where to look, and I do so.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: I started putting the hurt on the teal and the
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: wood ducks that like to fly into the small ponds
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: and streams on public land around here, at least during
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: the early season. But you know how that goes. I
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: love woodies and teal and I don't want to diss them,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: but if you duck hunt long enough, you start to
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: want a nice greenhead or two so you could fit
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: in with the big boys. I'm not proud of that,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: but it is true. And I realized something. I wasn't
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: really any good at duck hunting at all. Sure I
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: had like seven thousand dollars worth of duck camo on
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: a dog in a camel, vests and calls decoys and whatever,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: but my actual experience level was minimal. I also couldn't
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: really scout mallards the same way as some of those
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: other small water ducks, mostly because they just didn't, you know,
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: frequent the places where I could hunt and glass them
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: kind of wore on me for a while. And when
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: I finally did have some green heads swoop in on
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: the leading edge of a cold front in late October,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: I carried those birds out like I had done something
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: really special, but I had mostly just gotten lucky. And
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: it wasn't until quite a few years later, and well
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: into a different dog, that I killed a few more
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: and started getting a little more consistent up to a
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: lot of folks killing some mallards as a matter of
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: just going duck hunting because they know their stuff and
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: they have the right spots. You know. Usually it's a
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: little of both or a lot of both. To that crowd,
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: they think it was insane that someone could struggle for
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: whole seasons to kill a couple of greenheads, but that
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: was my reality. It reminded me of something else that
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: I was terrible at for years and years, which you
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: guessed it is golf, Just kidding, golf as child play
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: compared to shed hunting. I didn't find my first shed
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: antler until I was probably in my early twenties, and
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: it wasn't from a lack of trying. And if I'm
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: being totally honest, that antler was a turkey hunting bonus
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: that had already been run over by a tractor. So
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: that's kind of like saying you got your first big
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: bonus at work, when really it was a ziplock bag
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: with some candy in it and a five dollars gift
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: card to a frozen yogurt shop that's been out of
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: business for three years. You know why I couldn't find
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: a shed antler to save my life for quite a
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: few years. There were a couple reasons. I spent my
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: time mostly looking on a farm where the deer don't
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: winter a whole lot. And while this might seem like
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: a little bit of revisionist history, the winters we had
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: growing up seemed a hell of a lot worse than
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: the ones we have been having lately. Here. The farm
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: that I shed hunted, because it was the farm that
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: I hunted hunted didn't host a big deer population in
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: the winter. If the bucks aren't there to drop their antlers,
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: it's pretty hard to find their antlers, if you get
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: my drift. I did also shed hunt some public land
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: with the few buddies, but that yielded predictable results as well.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: It wasn't until we got antler point restrictions in that
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: part of the state and then had some milder winners
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: with the right crop rotation on that farm that I
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: started finding some antlers. And when I say it went
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: from almost impossible to actually pretty easy, real fast, I
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: mean that we had more bucks than ever and they
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: were sticking around sometimes all winter long. That's a recipe
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: for good shed hunting. And I had a few days
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: where I found anywhere from like three or four to
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: my super best day where I found eight. When I
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: shed hunted like a fiend with that golden retriever up
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: here in the cities, I might have found six in
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: a whole winter. I say that to frame this up
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: because it's important. Even though it's painfully obvious, if you're
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: not on a decent spot, you won't find very many,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: if any, antlers. There's nothing tactical here, there's no real strategy.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: If you want to find more antlers, you have to
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: shed hunt good spots. The people who promote shed hunting
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: a lot that's often their secret, kind of like the
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: people who consistently tell you all of it secrets for
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: killing big bucks, but who also happen to hunt places
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: with tons and tons of big bucks and coincidentally not
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of hunters. This is largely true. Anywhere with
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: a decent population of hunters got to outwork them. It
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: doesn't take too many hardcore shed hunters, and there are
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: some people out there who really put in a lot
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: of miles for antlers before you realize that somebody else
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: is out there scooping up more than their fair share,
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: making it tough for you. So the places where anyone
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: can go, or at least several people can go, that
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: also have some antlers laying on the ground often don't
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: have antlers laying on the ground for very long. So
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: this means if you want to suck less at shed hunting,
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: you either have to outwork those folks or go somewhere
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: where there are fewer people poking around in every wintering
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: spot to see what they can find. Now on the
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: outwork front, it's best to understand what this means. To
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: frame this up, allow me to talk a little about
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: pheasant hunting. It's just kind of a natural thing that
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, after following the dogs
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: around for roosters, my buddies and I will check to
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: see how how many steps we walked and how many
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: miles we covered. Now, sometimes you get those dreamy days
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: where the birds hold tight and the limits come fairly easy,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: but even then it's usually at least a couple hours
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: of effort. Most of the time, especially if there are
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: at least two of us, the limits won't fully come
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: or we will have to walk a lot for them.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: We often cover at least twenty five thousand steps in
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: a day. Now. Those aren't steps on a nice two
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: track in good weather. They are on frozen ish slews,
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: mostly where you might have seven foot high cattails for
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: a good portion of your walk. Many of those days,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: the cattails are kind of glued together with frost, or sometimes,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: like this year, they're just bent over and intertwined due
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: to some straight line wind event, which is not that
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: uncommon on tabletop flat land where there's no trees. Occasionally
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: we break the thirty thousand steps mark, which is something
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: that a better man might not feel, but I do.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: At the end of the day, the question is always
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: how many birds did you get? Not did you death
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: march your way into exhaustion for a few birds. The
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: outward appearance of an awful lot of pheasant hunts is
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: that it's really about the dead birds, and they really
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: aren't that hard to get, but they can be, and
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: when they are, they're really hard to get, just like
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: how it goes with shed antler hunting. When I was
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: really getting after it, i'd average one antler every couple
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: of weeks, which, if you broke that down to miles
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: per antler, makes the return on investment seem super bad.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: I think that reality keeps a lot of people from
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: being serious about shed hunting, and I totally get that
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: it's not that much fun to do something when you
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: feel like your odds of success are extremely low. Yet
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: we all go deer hunting, you know, often, and very
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: rarely actually shoot one. Shed hunting is just one of
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: those things to do, you know, or at least we
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: view it this way. Kind of when the weather sucks
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: and the winter gets to you and you haven't done
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: anything cool in a while. But it can be a
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: lot more than that, and I kind of think we
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: should all at least consider being mildly serious about it,
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: at least for the month of March. Anyway, For a
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: lot of us, by then, most of the antlers are
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: on the ground, especially most of the big ones. By
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: then it's far enough from deer season where you might
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: be missing the woods a little bit. But you can
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: also do a hell of a lot of winter scouting
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: when you shed hunt the bonus. But I think it's
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: more than that. I think setting out to try to
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: do challenging things in the woods is good for us,
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: because that's just kind of what we do. Even though
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: we are generally on a quest to make deer hunting
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: easier and easier, we also know that if it gets
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: too easy, it just won't matter much anymore. That eternal
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: struggle with moderate hunting is no joke, it's real. Now.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: A good way to sharpen the blade is to decide
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: that this is the winter where you're going to find
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: x amount of sheds or spend x amount of days
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: looking now, even if you only hunt thirty acres, finding
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: other areas to shed hunt is important. This will likely
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: occur on public land, and spending time on public land
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: looking around is good for anyone who only has a
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: small chunk of land to hunt otherwise. Now, there are
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: a couple of great gifts that being a somewhat dedicated
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: shed hunter can give you, Besides the obvious reward of
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: finding antlers. The first is one I talk about all
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: the time that I'll just mention, which is that time
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: in the woods is the secret ingredient to being a
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: better hunter. It's also the secret ingredient to having generally
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: better mental health, which is no small thing. But shed hunting,
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: even when the prospects are predictably grim, it's something else.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: It's a chance to work on your optimism and work
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: through a changing type of plan. I do a lot
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: of podcasts where I'm the guest, and I often get
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: a vague question like how would you approach hunting my
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: farm or the public land that I hunt? My answer
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: is sort of always to default to the scout observe
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: hunt scout observe hunt pattern. There's obviously a lot tucked
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: into that. Truth is that it's a strategy that works,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and it conditions me to accept failure as a necessary
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: part of the whole thing. Not seeing or not killing deer,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: you know, is that kind of failure, But it doesn't
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: feel like a failure when you know it'll happen on
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: some sits and it's part of the process. Hell, it
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: might happen on many of them, you know, as you
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: work through the old steps to get around one that
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: you'll eventually get a shot at. So what does this
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: have to do with shed hunting and honestly becoming a
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: better shed hunter? Quite a bit. Actually. While you can
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: go out on a Saturday afternoon with your buddies and
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: walk where the deer trails take you, and I'll note
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: there is nothing wrong with that, you can also decide
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: to give it a bit more effort. You can look
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: at your farm or the least or the public ground
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: you like and break it down into different areas. You
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: can walk the easy stuff for a gimme andler, but
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: eventually the sheds in the fields will be scooped up
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: by you or someone else. Eventually you'll have to start
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: walking the cover and you won't want to walk the
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: same routes. Eventually you'll have to start to develop some
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: kind of a plan or at least some type of
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: acknowledgment that you've already done this thing, so it's time
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: to do something else. This is what I love about
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: this time of year, when I fully expect to eventually
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: find an antler or three. I know where I should
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: walk according to typical advice and quite honestly my experience,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: but I know where I will walk right away, and
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: then I know I'll have to figure out where I
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: need to go to find the antlers that didn't give
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: themselves up earlier. That's when it starts to get rewarding,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: because it starts to feel like you're actively working through
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: something toward a goal. If you walk a certain route
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: through the main betting areas today and along a well
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: traveled ridge and you don't find an antler, that's okay,
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: because you're going to use that as a jumping off
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: point for the next time you go where you won't
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: walk that same route. It's fun to just go out
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: and explore and freelance a bit, but it's also fun
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: to decide that in the next few weeks you're going
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: to go out for even just an hour or two
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: when you can, and you're going to decide where you'll
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: start your shed hunts where they'll take you roughly and
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: where you'll end up, and when one is done, the
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: next one is already being planned. This is so close
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: to how you often have to be to kill deer,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: at least deer in spots where they aren't easy, and
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: that I feel it's absolutely worth it to try. I
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: don't want to turn shed hunting into a not very
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: fun mission to divide and conquer the landscape. So I'll
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: say this, If you do this, and you pay attention,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: you'll kind of notice a progression. Like I mentioned, the
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: first few miles will be spent looking at the fields,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: in the open areas, and just generally the easiest stuff
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: to walk. This is true in egg country, and it's
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: true in the big woods. You're not going to deal
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: with a lot of open ground there, so just generally
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: the easiest, highest odds routes are where you'll begin your
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: shed hunts. When those are played out, you'll have to
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: get creative and go where the deer like to walk
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: and probably where they like to bed. This is the
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: exact same path most hunters follow, but you know what,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: most of them never get away from those first easy paths.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Those are the spots where the power couples kill giants
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: on hunting shows, So why wouldn't you stick to them? Well,
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: that's not where the deer are likely to be a
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: lot of us, at least not big mature bucks. If
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: you want to kill big pressure deer, you almost always
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: have to go where other people won't. It might seem
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: like a leap to go from that back to just
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: an attempt to find a few antlers, but there's nothing
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: wrong with conditioning yourself to not only work harder than
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: most hunters, but to also go where most hunters won't,
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: which not coincidentally, is just generally more work. You don't
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: have to do this to find antler. It's just like
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: you don't have to hunt that way to kill pressure deer.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: But if you want to do either consistently, there's just
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: kind of a template to follow. Most of us just
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: want to swim downstream, but it's better to point your
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: nose into the current and start moving. I know this
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: might seem crazy, but I believe it to be true.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: If you shed hunt like most people won't, you'll find
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: more antlers, and you'll put yourself in more spots where
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: the deer or the deer sign can really teach you something.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: It's sort of like bringing a training dummy along when
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: you take your dog for a walk in the park. Sure,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: the walk is a good enough reason to go, but
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: why not mix in a few steadiness drills or fun
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: or trees or something. It won't take anything away from
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: the walk, but we'll definitely give your dog something it
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: needs and that it's only going to benefit you as
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: the owner of that dog. So go find some antlers
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: scratch that make the decision to do some shed hunting
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: in the next few weeks. You'll probably find something, and
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: if you don't, at least early on, you have the
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: power to change things up and give yourself better odds
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: to work through the problem. Eventually you're going to see
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: that wall of times and it'll be worth it. And
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: if not, hell, at least you tried, and you probably
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: found a whole bunch of interesting deer sign along the
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: way while also spending time in the woods. So do
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: that and come back next week because I'm going to
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: talk about why we should all be more honest about
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: deer hunting and just not lie so dang much. That's
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: it for this week. I'm Tony Peterson. This has been
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  Speaker 2: the Foundations podcast, which is brought to you by first Light.
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