Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Mothering Boys | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 5

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Mothering Boys | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 2 Episode 5 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Motherhood Uncut.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: We are so glad you're here.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: In this podcast, Deb Ruben and I talk about all things motherhood related, the things that people don't usually want to bring to the table.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: The messy, the hilarious, the ugly, the challenging, the amazing, the beautiful, the really effed up, all that stuff.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: We've got it here for you.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: We bring to you our own personal experiences, moms, as well as some research and data that might help you along the way.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Bring your friends.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: We've got you.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Come mother with us.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: Hey there, Deb here.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Kate and I are very aware that our podcast is often lopsided with our perspective of parenting our daughters who are socialized as girls.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_03: So this week we had the opportunity to interview Jules Pelaeus and Chris Susstrunk.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: Kate and I deeply respect these two moms because we get to witness them raising boys with so much grace, grit, thoughtfulness, and of course humility.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: In this interview, they both get to share some of the highs and lows of their experiences thus far while also sharing beautiful inspirational ways to bring up conscious young men in the world.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: We realized quickly that this may be part one of a really important conversation as we started to explore all the ins and outs and twists and turns of mothering boys.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: After the interview is complete, both Chris and Jules shared with us with us that they felt like they barely skimmed the surface and that there were some really important topics that they thought needed attention.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: We have included a little post-podcast clip where Chris shares on behalf of she and Jules some of the beautiful and messy parts of mothering that were not mentioned.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you all so much for listening.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: And as always, we'd love to hear your comments too.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hope you enjoy the interview.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everyone, it's Kate.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, every day or every other day, I am on Instagram posting little clips, little ideas, little strategies for your everyday maternal mental well-being.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: I used to actually really dislike social media and Instagram.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, as you know from our podcast, I still think that we need to be real careful with social media and our kids.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: That said, I am finding that the connections I'm making on Instagram through this feed where I am really offering moms out there a way to connect deeply with themselves, with their kids, and with their mental well-being to be really an amazing journey for me.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So check it out.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sharing a bit about my mothering there, as well as really important things to think about when you're working towards that sustainable mental well-being at Kate Kripke.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'll see you there.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_03: Hey all, Deb here.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: I am so excited to announce that I am hosting a two-hour workshop just for dads that are parenting adolescent girls and those who identify as girl.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_03: Please join me in person at Boulder Country Day School or virtually on February 8th from 6 to 8 p.m.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: I want to help you increase your knowledge about what's happening for them and give you some awesome strategies to parent with confidence.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: All the info is on my website at motherdaughterjourney.co or debrubin.com.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: I can't wait to see you.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, Deb and Kate.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's Chris here.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just wanted to follow up on our great conversation that just flew by.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Julie and I were chatting afterwards, and there was just so much that didn't get said.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many middle years in there of things that you deal with with boys in particular.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, we just wanted to dig in a little bit more.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: So here are some of the thoughts that we still had about boys, and so that your listeners could understand that all of what they're experiencing, the messiness, the exhaustion, how infuriating and stinky and even mean boys can be at times, and how you just do your best to encourage them to talk to you even when they don't, when they're hurting, the most you can do is just wait until they will talk to you.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: How you know we want to have them read and participate in outdoor activities and all these things.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes all they want to do is play video games and you can't get them out of there.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And yet somehow that feels important if they're connecting in some small way, even through an online video game, because you're worried that they might be lonely or that they don't have a group of friends, and all the stuff that happens in middle school that can be so hard because middle school is super tricky and sucks most of the time for boys.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And how you just trust that someday they're gonna be grateful that you made them take swimming lessons and piano lessons, and that you wouldn't let them sleep over at that one friend's house that you know is trouble, or you wouldn't let them drop Spanish, and you made them brush their teeth and all the hard work of every day, just getting them tucked into bed at night when my favorite thing to do was just to read out loud to them, even after they were way too old to have me reading to them.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: But that was our time to just kind of be quiet and listen and slip into a story and just relax.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that was a the one of the best parenting things I ever did.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And now I have four boys who barely read anything, but I have to trust that someday they're gonna love that again too.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: So just a lot of room for all the messiness and stinkiness and frustration that comes with boys and and girls too, but you know, what I know is boys and what Jules knows is boys.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway, thanks for hearing us and um for the conversation, and let's just keep talking.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Deb.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Key.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Podcast Day, happy podcast day.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: We have been out of our league in this podcast in trying to articulate the experiences of moms with sons because we don't have sons.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: We don't really know what to do with voice.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: We don't know much about voice.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: So we have invited these two amazing friends, moms of moms.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: Moms of sons.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: You want to say a little more about these two fabulous people on our podcast today?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: So we have Chris and Julie here.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: Jules, Julie, she goes by both, and they are two women that we both really look up to.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna let them introduce themselves, but uh personally I look up to both of these women because A, they're the only women in their homes.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: They both, from my vantage point, seem to have this way of finding levity and humor and so much compassion and patience in their parenting styles.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: They're just regular humans, and that's so much uh what we want to bring into the world is regular humans that are doing something that we look up to.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: And uh as we always say, looking up to doesn't mean they do it perfectly, it means that they do it in a way that has so much aliveness and presence.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: And because we misrepresent the mothering of boys, we want to learn from you.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Can I say one other thing?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Please.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can get stuck in these conversations on the binary ideas of mothering boys or mothering girls.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: And you and I talk so much about mama mentors.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I think there's a way in which if we have daughters really learning more about boys and mothering boys and being open to the possibility that those skills and and insights are really valuable for us as moms of girls, and same on the other side, right?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: That just because they have boys doesn't mean that what we've learned about mothering girls might not be useful for them.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like this conversation can also open up the the sort of narrow thinking about mothering boys or mothering girls, and with the knowledge you guys share with us today, being able to walk away and think about what do I want to bring from that into my mothering of my daughter if I have a daughter at home.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's like we're more different or more alike than we're different.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that I think is such a comfort for me in life, right?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: So let's bring it over to our guests.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'll introduce myself.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Chris, and as you said, I have um boys.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I have four of them, and they are 20, 19, 17, and 14.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm through a certain stage uh with them of raising them and um into the next, which comes with its own similar but different challenges.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Now I want to pause and go back to how you started, which is that you're a mom of four boys.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think many of us are like wowsers, right?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I mean I never anticipated, but I have loved having four, and I think the dynamic of four is super interesting, and they are four very individual people who come with their own sets of uh their own personalities that just show up in so many different ways, and yet they're really close to each other.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's my best accomplishment.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Longtime fan, longtime listener.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Jules.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: I have three boys, ages 13, 11, and four.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So really kind of representing the spectrum here with you, Chris, and looking forward to hearing your wisdom.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I will say that every time I listen and you talk about something specific to one of your daughters, I think one that's going to be useful for me to relay to them because I'm often thinking about how can I prepare them to be good men and to be good partners.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And and also I will, I always want to like talk with you when I'm listening to the podcast and let you know, like, oh yeah, that applies for for me as a boy mom as well.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: What an important point, right?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think we get so narrow-minded in like this context that we live in without remembering that, like, again, I said this earlier, but it all applies all of it applies to all of us, right?
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's such I love hearing that, Jules, because I know that's something that Deb and I have thought about, you know, that we have our lens.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: We're moms of daughters and wanting to hopefully having moms of sons be able to take some of this, these little nuggets away.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I love hearing that it's been useful for you.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for saying that.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: So let's get things started.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Where I mean, you just said something really important that they have uh relationships with each other that you really appreciate.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_03: I actually would love to start there.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: Of what would you say you have kind of created in your home to facilitate if it's even conscious, their relationships with each other?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I have to say from a very early age, I uh found out that I needed to step out of the way a lot of the times where I needed to um let them work out some stuff.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it you know, they they needed help, of course.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I would say to them that this is your relationship with your brother, and you have a choice about how this unfolds.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: But your brothers are a gift that a lot of boys don't have.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: They you have this built-in buddy who knows you so so well, and we all know that men don't uh connect as easily as women do, and so that is something that I think about as they are adult men, that they have this permanent kind of buddy system that will serve them so well if they honor it and maintain it and work at it.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now, when they're four or five, they're not using those thoughts.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: But it was, I I tried not to step into the middle of it all the time and made one the bad guy and one the good guy, or like you grab that, or he's had it too long, now it's time to share.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: Da-da-da-da.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: We we sort of tried to work on ways that they could figure some stuff out themselves, and that carries so much, I think, of how I parented when they were little, still apply.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Those are still the thoughts that are in my head when they're 18, 19, you know, almost adults.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Can I make a reflection, Chris?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: Which is, I think goes on to another topic that we can dive into later if we want to.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I know your boys, and I don't know your boys personally, Jules, but I know your boys because I've spent quite a bit of time with them.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Not a lot, but you know, I've seen them through the years.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I have, you probably remember this, but I have always admired from when they were little the way your boys interacted with me.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: We used to have, we had this phrase in our family where I would be like, go pull a sus drunk.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And what that meant is that they were gonna walk up to someone, look them in the eye, ask them a question, shake their hand, right?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: There was this way in which your modeling for them, the values you had in your family, and certainly I'm sure it goes about how they were treating each other, also showed up and how they treated other people in their lives.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's so interesting because sometimes we think about setting rules in our family.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: You must look adults in your eye, you must shake hands.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: But for you, and I hear you saying this too, is more about the values you're trying to teach of connection from an early age.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: Does that resonate to you?
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, um, I want them.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Jules, you suggested it earlier too.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: The goal is to raise men of character.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: That is the goal.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so that starts early on, and it starts with expectations of behavior um uh that we set, and also it you know, around the whole like interacting with adults, if you don't encourage them to do that when they're little and they're kind of listening to you for advice on how to be in this circumstance where there's people of all ages, it doesn't get easier all of a sudden when they're 12 to say, well, now's the day you have to start shaking adults' hands.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's it's good to start it early, and then it kind of gives them another tool in their box because all of us um feel awkward when we go into a room full of people we don't know.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things we do is we reach out our hand and we say, Hi, I'm Chris.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to meet you.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's an immediate icebreaker.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Kids need that tool as well, so it it's helped that's that's been kind of the motive.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure it says, you know, it it is our family values, but a lot of it was strategic as well.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: I wanna, I want, I'm so curious to hear from Jules about this question about connection and relationship, but I want to just tie this back to what how you were answering Deb's question, because I think in part, how our children show up in the world has a lot to do with how they're showing up at home with each other.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: So it sounds like you were from an early age really encouraging your boys to connect, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Jules has something so important to say.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh dear.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, okay, so my older two boys from you know, a very, I mean, they've been each other's like bear cub playmate from the get-go.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: And because they're two years apart, two years and six days, and so they've always just like had each other.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we I made that face because I actually think that they're showing up a little better out of the house currently than they are at home.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Deb, please tell me that's normal.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's a sign of safety.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, we have been in a conflict phase, and actually, only within probably the last two weeks, I would say I'm seeing signs of them come back to their closeness, which is really cool because for a while it's been how to navigate conflict resolution in a way that I do stay out of it when I need to, but also at the same time reiterating how to have healthy arguments and how to have healthy repair.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes, you know, that's a process.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: That repair is like it's ugly, it's messy.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: Wait, I have to say something because, and I will vouch for your boys that they too are very socialized.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: They, I mean, I've known both, I've known all three of your boys, but your older two, I was seeing them on a regular basis, and Dax too, I see pretty regularly.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: But like that they always look me in the eye, they always say hello, they are like kind to the core.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I want to be clear that this is not about raising these perfect children in the world.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_03: This is about understanding how connection is essential.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: And what you were both saying is you are creating homes where connection is one of the most important pieces here.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so to your point, Jules, like you're teaching and holding space for repair, which I actually think is not always intuitive.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of times parents might feel like, oh, they're they're just boys, they just fight big and the da-da-da, and we're just gonna like hope for the best, you know.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: But I think what I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that both of you are like, hey, this is a relationship to put energy into, and that relational piece is what feeds connection, it feeds uh emotionality and all these really important things.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: You look like um I one of the things that I have always rejected is that boys will be boys kind of thing you hear all the time to excuse behavior that nobody really cares for or doesn't um serve them well.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: So around conflict, boys can tend to wrestle or it comes out physically.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to say, I always shut that down really, really fast.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: There was no room for that, even when it wasn't in conflict, even when it was on the trampoline and they had their friends over and they were gonna wrestle.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And people would be like, Oh, they're having a great time wrestling on the trampoline.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: I hated that because it never ended well.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: Somebody always lost, somebody always got hurt, somebody always wasn't tears.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that set a tone, and I didn't have any problem telling my boys' friends that that was not a game that they could play at my house.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and my boys didn't like that very much, but you know, those that sort of sets a tone in your house, and all those boys also know that they are always welcome in our house, but there are there are some boundaries.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um when they were really little, that's that was the case.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And even now, I mean, we have a stream of boys all the time that come through our house, and I would say food is a big part of that.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know what you're making me think of, which is so we were just talking about this before we started recording, right?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I do you do have it, I mean, that's what's so beautiful about this boundary.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: It stopped no boys from thinking of your house as like the fun house to be at.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Before we start recording, we are talking about the way in which we can get stuck or or kind of, you know, tunnel visioned into the the society and culture's expectations for boys and girls.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm wondering if either of you could speak more to that because you're naming that right now, right?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Boys will be boys, and what does it look like to parent boys who are just gonna roughhouse because boys will be boys?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think about the thing you were saying about mistake and repair, Jules, and about how little girls are taught to apologize, right?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and own their part.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if little boys are taught that inherently.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: I I guess this is an open question to just hear your thoughts on it's more I'm gonna ask a more specific question.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: As you were having boy babies that were boys and you were really thinking about being a woman raising boys, what are the things that you were intentional in or thinking about or worried about with respect to some of these sort of social pressures?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this might take us down a different rabbit hole, and that's maybe that you guys can decide.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that I was thinking about was this concept with you know, my boys, my older two, being very physical and also someone inevitably end up crying, and also letting them figure out what the boundary is.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the big lessons that I've really tried to instill in them is that no means no.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this is, you know, you had alluded to that maybe we were going to talk about sex and puberty.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was thinking along those lines of like at a very young age, I have tried to instill in them that their words matter, and that when someone is saying no in the context of wrestling, that it actually, even though the sentiment may seem different and you're having fun and you're laughing, that's really still a very powerful word.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this is socialization.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: This starts, you know, the conversation.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm again, I'm looking at this through the lens of being a woman.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: And how am I raising a boy who is in tune with that word and potentially, you know, a woman many years from now or not so far away.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just so struck by your by your reflective, like your intentionality behind that, Jules, right?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Just even stepping away and asking those questions, right?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like you as a mother, a woman who's a mother, your role in that is so profound.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: And because you have experiences on the other side, of course.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: We do that with our girls too, but I've really never thought about that perspective with res, you know, with this topic.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's so valuable that you're even helping them think through those things from your eyes.
• 22:59
  unknown: That's one thing.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: I I couldn't agree more.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing that's so fascinating is I think, and this we're gonna be very gendery and broad strokes here because so often when we're talking about genders and when we talk about research, it's it's broad spectrum.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I just want to acknowledge that.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: But you're teaching them how to listen.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the boys, men in general are very much taught how to speak.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like they are good at speaking up of not apologizing for you know having strong opinions.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: And yet the art of listening it it can so often get lost.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I just I love that you're really bringing that to the table of hey you need to listen to a really important word which I'm I know we're moving in this unspoken direction of consent, but that it actually also really brings to light when someone is playing hard and possibly changes their mind.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: How that leads towards sexual experiences and and how to be attuned to other people.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I think both of you moms are incredibly attuned to your boys which teaches them to be attuned to others.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for sharing that.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think trying to tune in to them is the biggest um challenge that we have as moms.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're not going to come home and dump it all out on the table for you.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to um like your spidey senses have to go off when you think that there's something wrong.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes there is something they want to talk about and sometimes there's not I'm convinced that boys have a hormonal cycle like girls do.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And there are times when they're just a bit off and they're a bit like crabby and just don't feel well or whatever that is and they don't want to sit and chit chat with you about anything and you can pick at it as much as you want and they're not going to give in at least I would say that's how my voice work.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And each of them are different to each other and I think that is we have to be careful about the generalizations because I you know I have to read each one of them in their own way and what their little tells are when they're not feeling right about the world or they're stressed or whatever it is.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's that whole emotional piece and then there's this very physical thing that happens and I don't know if this is the case for you Jules and I keep referring to food but um like a couple of my boys if they're hungry even if they don't know they're hungry they're like they don't cope very well.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so my first line of defense is to feed them if I think that they're off a bit and then they'll be way more willing.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's just people in general but I know for my boys in particular that's how it shows up.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: A thousand percent and my favorite topic but that's another podcast.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: Josie's a nutritionist and brilliant minded around how to work with food.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: Just a little side plug on her yes go on.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well I was thinking about the whole idea of you know how we're raising these social creatures and I think one of the things that my husband and I have always done is that you know we always talk to them more like an adult than and and and held the bar that they could understand that they could grasp these concepts.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know I was talking to someone yesterday who said you know that she didn't think her eight year old could understand the connection between food and how it made her feel and I said yeah she can.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: She absolutely can and I so I think again holding that bar a little bit higher for them as maybe younger kids speaking to them in real language as opposed to I don't know taking it down to kid level which I don't even know what that is but someone does prepares them to be able to you know walk into a restaurant and look someone in the eye and ask for what they want to order off the menu.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Andor you know be in the grocery store my four-year-old just you know we're going down the aisles and he just looks at someone he's like hey I like your shirt you know and he's just looking them in the eye and he's engaging and there's no fear there.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're socialized they're in tune they're connected they're paying attention they're looking around so I just think that um yeah I don't know that's part of that socialization piece that you were talking about.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just gonna reflect back one thing you said and then I'm really curious to hear what you have on your mind Deb, which is that you're you're actually when you're talking about an example of the eight-year-old and the food, right?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: And you're talking in Chris about the example of like really you knowing your your boys and you can just tell the moment they begin to act out and you're like ah he's got to eat something you guys are teaching self-awareness.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: You're teaching self-reflection you're teaching the ability early on to remember that your body is telling yourself something important.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: Our babies know this thing you know they're hungry and they cry and then somehow we begin to sort of talk them out of that connection between their mind and their body and so I love that you brought that up Jules because it really is girl parenting mother or a mothering boy or a girl it's that it's like how do we help develop that self-awareness and I maybe maybe this is something that is sort of thought of as a part of mothering girls not the way it's a part of mothering boys.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know but I just it's so valuable well I I think that teaching boys or girls the messages of their bodies like it starts with food.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then later I think it moves into the other you know topics that are maybe a little bit harder to discuss.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: I hear people talk all the time about how it's you know they're nervous and feel awkward about talking about other body sensations and pleasure and sexuality but I actually think that it you know we want to continue to teach them those things but I think it feels to me like it starts by helping them tune into what is your body trying to tell you right now and oftentimes I'm thirsty I'm hungry I'm tired what do you need so good absolutely and it does just launch from there and then you take your moments when you have them you know I have one son who loves to have his back scratched and I take advantage of that as much as I can because that's my moment with him when he puts his head down on my lap and he's you know he's much older now and I can just chat with him then or just have some connection with him and you look for those moments and back to food.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: The family the family dinner has been a real center of our family values I would say that going back to the whole family value thing we really made that a super important time because life gets busy with four boys and all the sports and all the stuff and the friends and all the stuff going on and we would have to just say tonight it's family dinner.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's there and we we did it as much as we could growing up when they were little and then now we steal it all the time and now it's they love it.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like now we can pour a glass of wine with them and not all of them but you know the older ones and like it's just a real chance to download and you build that you can't start that when they're 17.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: That starts when they're little and you make sure that they know that family dinner is like a pivotal part of your family life.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you that's so good for all of us to remember okay so next question and I get this I get asked this all the time how do I get my boy to talk to me and this is this is hard and I just would love for you to offer any wisdom there.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if and if you don't have it that's fine too but let's see where it goes I think I'm gonna pass this pretty quickly off to you Chris but I will say my oldest I would consider him a verbal processor.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like I got lucky on that one.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: To your point earlier about boys and the way they assert themselves I actually think that for him it's more about the listening and being able to sit with the discomfort and learn to listen my middle is uh more tight-lipped and again I I I kind of feel like he is more that way innately and not just in a phase.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so the way that I've gone about that in you know recent time is to you know be there when he wants to talk no matter what I'm doing.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about that in a podcast one time.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's always at like 10 o'clock at night when I'm already like in bed.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like what?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh now okay um and sometimes he's not necessarily even wanting to talk about anything specific but it's just his time to talk about whatever's on his mind.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: When it's something that's more difficult that he really doesn't want to talk about oftentimes I am encouraging him to you know well one I'm asking if he wants me to come in and talk with him or to even be with him.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times the words aren't there.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're talking about where he feels it in his body and just you know they learned some of these skills at our amazing school that they've been to and um and mindfulness right learn a lot of schools are teaching mindfulness now but like learning how to breathe into the discomfort and identify just where it is in their body.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm hopeful that maybe the language with him comes later.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know to be determined well good for you to be able to have those kinds of conversation and use those words because that's not always easy with boys.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: They can be a little bit um standoffish when you really when they really feel like you're trying to get to their emotions.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: So um I feel like what I've had to do is make sure that when they're talking that I'm really listening and willing to accept whatever it is that they're saying and then ask another question and then ask another question so that I can kind of pull some more information out.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're not necessarily at least my boys are not going to just kind of like spill the beans.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a more nuanced conversation and if you I've always said to them that um you know in everything that they're doing I'm willing to negotiate with them.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: My rule is not my job is not to say no and wreck their lives.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: So when they want to like have a conversation about something they want to do or that they're thinking about or that might be you know shocking to me and inside I'm dying because they're like saying something that I'm like I don't want to hear this you know you have to kind of like put the straight face on and say hmm okay well tell me more about that or are all your friends doing this?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Is this something that seems to be pretty common in 10th grade or whatever that is and kind of try and get to the heart of it.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when they know that I'm not gonna shut them down with discipline or they're not gonna get in trouble or whatever, then that leads them to be able to have more of a conversation.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And Kate, we've talked about this before where I I've said to them like I will try and get to yes as much as I can and sometimes it's no and sometimes if you need an answer right this minute then it's no.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if you give me some time so that I can call the parent that whose house you want to go to or you know figure out how you're gonna get there in a safe way and would you be able to drive in the daylight instead of at night or like whatever it takes for me to get to yes and if we can figure that out then I'm willing to say yes because they're making those decisions regardless of how I feel about it.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm like I don't want to see any you know alcohol in high school at all you know Jules sorry slightly next level but um like that's a real thing then that doesn't necessarily mean they're not gonna do it.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I so you have to be willing to kind of like read the room.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: I hear you leading with curiosity rather than leading with fear which is something Deb and I talk so much about in this podcast.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like one of the hardest things to do in motherhood because well A, as as I was about to call you Bridger, as as Deb has done so many times with me is like reminding us to be willing to not know the answer, right?
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because when we don't know our brain flashes forward with all the worst case scenarios and then we're likely to just say no right off the bat.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: But you're just describing this beautiful dance of like taking care of yourself so that you can stay steady and just ask more questions before letting that fear based place, although you also remind us all the time it is our job to worry, right?
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna worry.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: But then to like step back into curiosity to find out more information.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that takes practice.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh I yes I have to say what I in conjunction with what Kate just said I also hear you postponing your own agenda and coming because of curiosity it removes judgment.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: And this is something that I think all parents regardless of gender can relate on is that we don't want our kids to feel judged.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: And if anyone remembers our interview with our girls that came up they feel judged by us when we have strong opinions or we're trying to still put our values on them.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: And what you just said so beautifully is you want them to get clearer and clearer about what they're bringing to the table.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's what basically when they go out into the world it's them making those decisions on their own.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_03: So when you open that door for communication you're still on their in their corner.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that is like the ideal relationship is to have difference in opinions to hold boundaries but also to know that we have their back and to postpone judgment I think is really really hard.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like really in that right now and I'm watching my kids like do cringy things.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes thousand percent yes with the the judgment piece and I've actually caught myself a a couple times with um with one of my kiddos.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: We'll just leave it at that and um you know I actually I was gonna ask you Chris if there was a way in which you know there's you've a way in which you've encouraged them to keep talking to you as you've gotten older.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking to someone a couple days ago about um playing golf as a mom I don't play golf I don't have no desire to play golf and yet I'm considering like maybe I should learn how to play golf because maybe because I've actually heard moms of boys say, you know, it opens up this beautiful opportunity where you're doing something active together.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're outside you're walking you're side by side you know it's this idea that like when you're driving in the car, you've I think you've talked about this like they're more apt to open up to you because of the way in which your body's positioned and there's just so much more going on.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I was that's what I was curious about.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah golf is a good one.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I mean I played and I think I will come back to it again for that reason because I now have a family full of golfers.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: I get the pleasure of seeing the four of them go off together.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of special so I like take this great glee now in watching their relationships with each other um and that they have become each other's coaches in a lot of ways.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like even this morning my one son who's in the Netherlands right now called his brother who's applying for colleges because he shared his essays with him and wanted his you know his input and you know encouraging my youngest one that he really should play on the lacrosse team at school because being a part of a team sport is and I can say all those things and they will never hear them as well as they'll hear them from each other.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's kind of you know you get the benefit of that now that they're actually have their own thing going on and I love that.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: That is something to look forward to I just want to give a shout out to your moms who have younger kids and younger boys who are in it and you don't get to we we're not quite experiencing that level but that's what it's for.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's the goal.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah and I also you know I have a sister and a brother and I will often tell my boys like you know this is your relationship if you're lucky like I am to have a best friend in your brother like I have in my sister you know like the the yeah it's such a gift.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a gift.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's such a um what's the word?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it's it's a thing that not all men have.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so I love that for them.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: I have a question though I don't know if you guys can answer this but I'm imagining there might be some listeners out there who have boys who have very different interests right you're kind of describing this really kind of beautiful scenario where they're drawn to do the same things and so inherent in that sharing of activity is connection.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: W I I don't know if you can speak to this, but what what do you imagine so there's two questions.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: One is how do you as a mom, I heard you ask this, stay connected to your sons as they get older and as you get older, right?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: As everything shifts, how do you stay in connection?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: And the other is what do you imagine supporting that connection of boys might look like or maybe even it's a son and a daughter right where where there is less inherent shared experience what do you think that would look like I'm imagining some of our listeners might be thinking that right now I don't have an answer for this one.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: What I will say is that you know between Enzo and Rocco they have had a lot of shared interests and I've had to be really careful to give space for them to have their own interest, right?
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: To like really again listen and tune in from a from a and and and and create opportunities that say hey you might not want to play golf you might not want to not you may not want to play baseball or follow in your brother's footsteps you know as the secondborn child I had to discern for myself like oh wait actually I like bananas my sister doesn't I do oh I didn't know that until I was like 15 and the same thing happened in college like I didn't want to be in a sorority but my sister that was her spot.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so you know giving space for them to um what's the word I'm looking for like to make yeah to be unique and just to discern for themselves like is this me or is this the path that was laid for me and I have a choice.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I can there are things there are amazing things that you can take from an older sibling or or follow in a you know that you you get that benefit um but to create space for you to have your own interests.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh for sure um I completely agree and I have three that have quite similar interests and my youngest I think almost on purpose has decided to take a bit of a step away from all the things that the other three like to do um to set himself a little bit apart because it's it's not nothing trying to keep up with three older brothers.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um they've had you know they have to manage that and I think as they get older that appreciation um for each other's differences improves.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know when your youngest doesn't want to ski and the other ones all want to it's a problem that has to be figured Out, um, but then the gap closes and then it starts to matter less.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that's been good.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: And just on the the going back to sort of um how I connect with them and continue to connect with them, I think again it starts really early.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think that my husband was amazing about always insisting on them being really respectful with me.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I wasn't just like the person who was cleaning up and doing all the stuff that we he supported that relationship of being them knowing, being really respectful.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I also worked really hard to have very um individual relationships with each of them, and so all of these things when they're little just pay are paid forward when they get older.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there are terms and things that I still say that I said to them when they were little, like even from a um discipline kind of perspective, like I could just say to them if I was hearing it going off or one of them was doing something that I didn't approve of or whatever, I could say, check yourself, just check yourself.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a way to speak to them without like calling them out in front of all their friends or embarrassing them or even calling them out in front of their brothers or saying you're the one.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: I could just say check yourself or try that again if they would say something to me that wasn't okay.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I would just be like, just try that again.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it was very disarming for them and but a good reminder that there needed to be um a different take.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And and I continue to say that.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: If I said that to them now, if they're up with a bunch of rowdy friends and I hear language or like whatever it is, whatever it is, I can say, check yourself.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's my cue, that's their cue that they need to like rethink how they're behaving.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: In light of time, is it okay if I move us, or is there something you want to say?
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to say one thing.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, my go-to is slow your roll.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: So good.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: Slow your roll.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: Saying it to both of them forever and try again.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: What's your go-to?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh try that again is something I say often.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Those little phrases we can get that just don't involve drama, they're so helpful.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have one, Jules?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure if I do, but I'm taking check yourself.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_02: So probably both.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: I need to start, just in light of time, because we're gonna, we don't, we we need to wrap up fairly soon, but I need us to circle back to the perhaps the hardest question here.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: But we've gotten this question from so many listeners, which is how do you talk to your boys about sex and sexuality as a woman, right?
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: And what does that look like for you?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: This is getting a little personal, so of course, share what you're comfortable with and don't what you're not.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, as as you know, we talk, it's it's not hard for Deb and I to talk to our girls about changing bodies and and pleasure and sex and sexuality because we have the same bodies that they do, essentially, right?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: But this question keeps coming up in our DMs about okay, I'm stuck.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: My my son, I caught my son masturbating.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: What do I do?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm stuck.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: My son is developing, and I'm really worried about whether or not he has the tools and strategies to manage his own sex and sexuality, sexuality, and then leaning into different opportunities for sex and sexuality with partners.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that we need, like, of course, this could be a whole topic on itself, but I think it's really worth, I would love to hear from you, and I know our listeners are hoping to hear from you like where have what are the roadblocks you've bumped?
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get specific.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, where have you found the greatest challenges for you in this?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: And where have you maybe the next question is where you've have you found the greatest opportunities when it comes to puberty, sex, sexuality of a mom raising boys?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: Chris.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um okay.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is big, and my boys are cringing right now if they're listening to this, but um I would say that it's for me there's the talks about hygiene and those kinds of things as our bodies are changing, and those can be subtle.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you put the soap in the shower and the, you know, the face wash stuff, and you say, You might want to try that.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, those kinds of gentle suggestions.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: And when it comes to sexuality, I think it's one of those things that you yeah, it's tough for mom.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of think of them as being littler than they are, and then all of a sudden they're not.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that you find that when you open the drawer and there's like a condom in the drawer.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just, yeah, right.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you just, and it's you know, in in this one case, they'd given them out at school, and that's why they were there, and it was great.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you never take them out.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, okay, I'm glad that they know that they have that right there.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just have conversations.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, pornography is a big thing that you have to talk to them about.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_01: They watch it, they you know, it's almost just everywhere, and even just mainstream television now has a lot of imaging that you need to talk about.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes it's just having conversations that, like, just so you know, you know how when the car chase is happening, you know that that's not real.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Same with the sex that you're seeing in pornography.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's just not real.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: And there's not a lot of women who want to be treated the way that those women are portrayed.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so you need to be very aware of that.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so you have those kinds of conversations when the opportunity arises, they roll your heads.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: There was a there was something in the news, I don't know, too long not too long ago, a new book that had come out or something, and every mom was talking about pornography with the boys, and then it became a bit of a joke with all the boys, but like, oh, did your mom talk to you about pornography on the way to school today?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_04: Because there was just on the today show.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a thing.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: And right now, my big thing that I'm talking to them about, there's a new book by a woman named Um Gabriel Blair that's called Responsible Ejaculation, and I'm just all over it because it's really about um her messages, like basically all unwanted pregnancies could be stopped if men had responsible ejaculation.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they're, you know, they roll their eyes at me now, but I'm somewhere in there, the message is getting there, and I want them to feel that responsibility towards their partners and to have loving res and and you're you're mirroring some of this with your your own partner.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the fact that Phil's message to to them about me has always been respect.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think that that will translate, hopefully, for their own relationships that the women in their lives or the men in their lives, whatever that might be, that respect is is the only rule, not the only rule, one of the major rules.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I was little, my mom had this puberty book, and it was like in the bottom drawer of her dresser, and it was like you didn't even want to go near the dresser because that's where the book was.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so sorry, mom, if you're listening, but she knows about the I think I actually think she gave me the book.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's on my it's on my shelf now.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, yes.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: But um, we've had to have the talk about pornography already, which is I wow, I didn't realize that was coming so soon, but I'll just want to echo what you said.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that one, I've had I have to, you know, say this for the other for the moms listening, which is trust yourself and what you have talked about and the way in which you've talked about it.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because I just deferred to you, Chris, because I was like, well, I want to hear what the mom of the older kids says because I don't know if I'm doing this right.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: And in listening to you, it has reminded me to trust myself that I'm having conversations with them that aren't like the big talk, which is what I feel like maybe we got, which was like a very small talk and it was about a book that, you know, that thing.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: But like having these conversations about what's happening to their body right now.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's, you know, there's some acne.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is the, you know, it's like, hey, here's some, you know, you know, scrub.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: You might want to use this twice a week, it put it in the shower for you, and like taking care of them that way, but just like normalizing all of it.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's, you know, and I think that's maybe what was not the message that I was given is that it was somehow something that we're not gonna talk about, and instead just bringing it to light, having the conversation, knowing that it's not gonna actually maybe go as well as you would like it to, or it might feel a little cringy or awkward, but just to keep having it anyway.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: And like the shorter, the better for my boys, anyway.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: I love that so much.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_03: I actually I I fear sometimes that people are gonna like stop listening to the podcast when when it's complete and then go into their world and think that they have all these things to do, right?
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_03: And yet what you're saying is we're naturally doing it, it's happening all the time.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_03: So many of us are, we have so much more intuition and insight than we know.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so much of our goal of this podcast is to pull out each listener's inner intuition to trust that it's already there.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_03: We're teaching sexuality, body awareness, respect, consent, communication, self-reflection.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: We're living it, you know?
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_03: And even if it's higher versions in some families than others, it's still there because we're humans.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_03: And so I love that reminder of trust.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_03: And we're listening to this podcast.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yay!
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I also want to say, because again, you know, Deb and I choose our podcast interviewees wisely, right?
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: We chose you two, we asked you two to come speak because we know how reflective and self-aware and intentional and conscious you are in your parenting.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: I imagine there are some people listening that are like, fuck, my kid is 17, and I haven't worked on these things with him yet.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think we want to just as a closing reminder, first of all, acknowledge, and I can see you both both shaking your head.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: I I know this goes without saying for the two of you, but for our listeners, you all have had so many moments of misses and mistakes and failures and muddling through.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're sharing the overall baseline of what your practice over time has led to, but that does not mean you've gotten it right every time, obviously, but I just want to say this for our listeners.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: And even though, yes, it's really nice to start these conversations and this family culture early, it's actually never too late to pause and repiv and pivot and say, you know, we're gonna start doing things differently in our family.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: Do you want to just say I know that this is obvious, but I feel like this is also your you're so good at this pair the the learning how to parent, even when we've gotten it perhaps quote unquote wrong or messy up to a certain point.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think you said it beautifully.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I just think it brings the humility of humanness in.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if there's conversations that any of us have missed, it like you said, it's never too late to go in and be like, hey, this is my first run here.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: And there's some things I want to do different, and we're teaching them the art of imperfection, we're teaching them how to go back and pivot.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: So I love the way you said it.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: We've been wrapping up these podcasts with asking if there's any last hanging advice you have, or words of wisdom is a better word than advice.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't love the word advice.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: Words of wisdom you have.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of our listeners don't have mama mentors in their own lives, and so we get to offer those up on these podcasts.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: You've already given so much words of wisdom, but any closing thoughts you have for those moms of sons out there?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: I would say for me that you should keep hugging them, even when they might be a little bit prickly about it.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because if you keep doing it, then you're still in practice with it, and they uh need it.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I encourage you to encourage your husbands to do the same.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they don't feel weird about it when Phil gives them a big hug or says, I love you, as they're walking out the door in front of all their friends.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that keeps us connected and their special moments now.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hallelujah.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love that so much.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're a big hugging, I love you family.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um the thing that popped into my mind, Kate, was that you're not alone.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I often sit at my dinner table, and you know, we also value the family dinner, like you mentioned, Chris.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if Kate and Deb could be a fly on my wall right now, it it is, you know, dinner lasts sometimes eight minutes, sometimes three minutes, and then it's like parkour and bottle flipping, and it it's just crazy.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: It is absolute madness, and there's a lot of chaos, and it's really freaking loud.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I am constantly having to regulate myself in the midst of the chaos, and it's not easy, it's so freaking hard, and yeah, you're not alone.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's it.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're doing it together, and it's a shit show, and it's okay.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god, thank you.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_03: So good, beautiful way to wrap that up.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_03: We pick well.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so proud of everyone here.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_03: You both thank you.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_03: I I just can't say enough how much we appreciate you and your wisdom, and you're just awesome.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_03: So we love you.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I think I'm walking away with all of these new thoughts from my own mothering that I didn't even think to consider.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy about that.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so happy.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_03: Goodbye, Kate.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_03: Goodbye, Deb.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: Goodbye, women.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_03: All right, we'll see.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: See you later.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, you guys, it's Kate.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: We really hope you enjoyed this week's episode.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: And if you did, go ahead and share it with a friend.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: It also would mean the world to me and Deb if you would take a minute and write a review.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: If this podcast makes you laugh, makes you cry in the best of ways, helps you feel less alone, gives you information that's useful to you in your mothering journey.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you write a review, it will make this more accessible to other mothers like you.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: So take a minute.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: We'd be so grateful.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here.