Latest / Veterinary Ramblings / Ep 11: Exotic Birds with Dr Neil Forbes

Transcript

Ep 11: Exotic Birds with Dr Neil Forbes · Veterinary Ramblings

• 0:00
  Mike Brampton: Hello, Julian.
• 0:01
  Julian Hoad: Hello there, Mike,
• 0:01
  Julian Hoad: how are you?
• 0:03
  Mike Brampton: I'm Excellent.
• 0:03
  Mike Brampton: Thank you very much. I'd like to
• 0:05
  Mike Brampton: welcome everybody to the unth
• 0:12
  Julian Hoad: next series! Is it
• 0:12
  Julian Hoad: season two?
• 0:15
  Mike Brampton: Season two,
• 0:15
  Mike Brampton: Episode Three of Veterinary
• 0:20
  Mike Brampton: Ramblings!
• 0:21
  Julian Hoad: Episode two is it
• 0:21
  Julian Hoad: really?
• 0:23
  Mike Brampton: Episode Three of
• 0:23
  Mike Brampton: Veterinary Ramblings, Yeah yeah
• 0:25
  Mike Brampton: yeah, series 2 episode three.
• 0:28
  Julian Hoad: Great.
• 0:30
  Mike Brampton: So now we know
• 0:30
  Mike Brampton: what we're doing. We'd better,
• 0:33
  Mike Brampton: we'd better to do it properly,
• 0:33
  Mike Brampton: haven't we? So
• 0:35
  Julian Hoad: We're thoroughly
• 0:35
  Julian Hoad: professional now, we've got a
• 0:38
  Julian Hoad: whole season under our belts
• 0:38
  Julian Hoad: haven't we.
• 0:39
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, absolutely.
• 0:39
  Mike Brampton: So Hello, everybody, and welcome
• 0:44
  Mike Brampton: to Veterinary Ramblings. My name
• 0:44
  Mike Brampton: is Mike Brampton.
• 0:47
  Julian Hoad: And my name is
• 0:47
  Julian Hoad: Julian Hoad.
• 0:51
  Mike Brampton: That was pretty
• 0:51
  Mike Brampton: professional actually.
• 0:53
  Julian Hoad: It sounded
• 0:53
  Julian Hoad: professional. I thought you were
• 0:54
  Julian Hoad: great Mike.
• 0:55
  Mike Brampton: Do you realise
• 0:55
  Mike Brampton: the average age of our audience
• 0:58
  Mike Brampton: has gone up to nine years old
• 0:58
  Mike Brampton: now.
• 1:01
  Julian Hoad: Has it really? Bit
• 1:01
  Julian Hoad: Worrying isn't it?
• 1:04
  Mike Brampton: Perhaps we should
• 1:04
  Mike Brampton: stop doing the children's show?
• 1:07
  Julian Hoad: We should be, we
• 1:07
  Julian Hoad: should be entertainers shouldn't
• 1:11
  Julian Hoad: we, childrens entertainers
• 1:12
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, yeah, I see
• 1:12
  Mike Brampton: you've got your gin tonight.
• 1:15
  Mike Brampton: I've got mine.
• 1:16
  Julian Hoad: No kids this is
• 1:16
  Julian Hoad: lemonade, Uncle Mike's also got
• 1:18
  Julian Hoad: a glass of lemonade. And today,
• 1:18
  Julian Hoad: we're going to be talking about
• 1:22
  Julian Hoad: how ethanol is very bad for you
• 1:22
  Julian Hoad: when you're grown up. You should
• 1:25
  Julian Hoad: never ever have it. Look, this
• 1:25
  Julian Hoad: is why.
• 1:30
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, stay tuned.
• 1:30
  Mike Brampton: We'll show you why Ethanol, aka
• 1:36
  Mike Brampton: alcohol or aka gin, is really
• 1:36
  Mike Brampton: bad for you.
• 1:43
  Mike Brampton: Hi I'm Mike Brampton
• 1:45
  Julian Hoad: And my name is
• 1:45
  Julian Hoad: Julian Hoad.
• 1:47
  Mike Brampton: Welcome to
• 1:47
  Mike Brampton: Veterinary Ramblings. Listen,
• 1:52
  Mike Brampton: we've got a great show lined up
• 1:52
  Mike Brampton: tonight, I think, fabulous
• 1:57
  Mike Brampton: guest, tell us about our guest
• 1:57
  Mike Brampton: Julian.
• 2:01
  Julian Hoad: Well, I do actually
• 2:01
  Julian Hoad: know about our guest because he
• 2:03
  Julian Hoad: is Neil Forbes, who wears many
• 2:03
  Julian Hoad: hats although not as sleek as
• 2:09
  Julian Hoad: yours actually, Mike. He is an
• 2:09
  Julian Hoad: exotics expert specialising in
• 2:14
  Julian Hoad: birds. And he is past president
• 2:14
  Julian Hoad: I believe of the European
• 2:19
  Julian Hoad: Exotics Panel. He holds
• 2:19
  Julian Hoad: specialisms in, in birds from
• 2:28
  Julian Hoad: the Royal College of Veterinary
• 2:28
  Julian Hoad: Surgeons and from the European
• 2:30
  Julian Hoad: board. He's also very heavily
• 2:30
  Julian Hoad: involved these days in
• 2:35
  Julian Hoad: antimicrobial resistance.
• 2:37
  Mike Brampton: What Okay, well,
• 2:37
  Mike Brampton: let's get him in. I I remember
• 2:41
  Mike Brampton: meeting Neil many, many years
• 2:41
  Mike Brampton: ago, and he sent me on quite a
• 2:45
  Mike Brampton: mission. Maybe we'll share that.
• 2:45
  Mike Brampton: Let's get Neil Forbes in. Let's
• 2:50
  Mike Brampton: get him in.
• 2:52
  Julian Hoad: You need to press
• 2:52
  Julian Hoad: the button I think
• 2:57
  Neil Forbes: Good Evening Mike,
• 2:57
  Neil Forbes: how are you?
• 3:00
  Mike Brampton: I'm Excellent.
• 3:00
  Mike Brampton: Thank you, yourself?
• 3:01
  Neil Forbes: Very, very good
• 3:01
  Neil Forbes: indeed. Evening, Julian.
• 3:04
  Julian Hoad: Good evening, Neil.
• 3:04
  Julian Hoad: Good to see you.
• 3:06
  Neil Forbes: And you too.
• 3:07
  Julian Hoad: Thanks for, Thanks
• 3:07
  Julian Hoad: for joining us tonight.
• 3:09
  Neil Forbes: It's a pleasure.
• 3:09
  Neil Forbes: It's lovely to be here. And
• 3:12
  Neil Forbes: you've got a top on that's
• 3:12
  Neil Forbes: nearly nearly but not, not
• 3:15
  Neil Forbes: really as nice as mine.
• 3:17
  Julian Hoad: That'll be cut out,
• 3:17
  Julian Hoad: that'll be fine.
• 3:19
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, yeah, don't
• 3:19
  Mike Brampton: do this at home.Yeah, what we
• 3:21
  Mike Brampton: ought to say is that, if
• 3:21
  Mike Brampton: something does go awry with and
• 3:24
  Mike Brampton: we sort of go 'Yeah, and cut'
• 3:24
  Mike Brampton: and it just gets cut out
• 3:29
  Neil Forbes: and then they cut
• 3:29
  Neil Forbes: that piece and put it in
• 3:30
  Neil Forbes: specially.
• 3:31
  Julian Hoad: Yes, yes.
• 3:34
  Neil Forbes: Can I just tell you
• 3:34
  Neil Forbes: a story about that situation.
• 3:37
  Neil Forbes: Okay. So there was a television
• 3:37
  Neil Forbes: programme called pets behaving
• 3:42
  Neil Forbes: badly. And whenever these sorts
• 3:42
  Neil Forbes: of things happen, the producers
• 3:47
  Neil Forbes: or their researchers get on the
• 3:47
  Neil Forbes: phone to all sorts of veterinary
• 3:49
  Neil Forbes: surgeons and say, 'Oh, do you
• 3:49
  Neil Forbes: know of a client who you know,
• 3:54
  Neil Forbes: has got a pet that would work
• 3:54
  Neil Forbes: for this'. And in this
• 3:57
  Neil Forbes: particular case, I had a client
• 3:57
  Neil Forbes: with a little parrot. And this
• 4:04
  Neil Forbes: parrot was basically imprinted
• 4:04
  Neil Forbes: on the owner and basically
• 4:09
  Neil Forbes: wanted to breed with the owner.
• 4:09
  Neil Forbes: He was hand-rid bird . Okay, so
• 4:13
  Neil Forbes: you get you get the picture. So
• 4:13
  Neil Forbes: lots of bad behaviour. And
• 4:16
  Neil Forbes: anyway, it all sort of worked
• 4:16
  Neil Forbes: out well. So the television crew
• 4:19
  Neil Forbes: went to her house. And this was
• 4:19
  Neil Forbes: a middle aged spinster, you
• 4:25
  Neil Forbes: know, pillar of the local church
• 4:25
  Neil Forbes: and all that sort of thing. And
• 4:29
  Neil Forbes: they filmed all morning, and
• 4:29
  Neil Forbes: then they broke for lunch. And
• 4:32
  Neil Forbes: during the lunch break, the
• 4:32
  Neil Forbes: little parrot flew over and did
• 4:37
  Neil Forbes: his normal thing which is
• 4:37
  Neil Forbes: masturbating on the owners head.
• 4:40
  Neil Forbes: And of course, the cameraman
• 4:40
  Neil Forbes: caught it. And this poor lady
• 4:44
  Neil Forbes: was absolutely devastated
• 4:44
  Neil Forbes: because the only thing they
• 4:47
  Neil Forbes: showed of her in the real
• 4:47
  Neil Forbes: programme when it came was this
• 4:52
  Neil Forbes: little clip and you imagine. I
• 4:52
  Neil Forbes: mean, she was distraught,
• 4:57
  Neil Forbes: understandably so.
• 5:00
  Julian Hoad: For, for people who
• 5:00
  Julian Hoad: are not watching this, but
• 5:03
  Julian Hoad: listening on audio, you might
• 5:03
  Julian Hoad: have heard that wonderful story
• 5:07
  Julian Hoad: but you missed the expression on
• 5:07
  Julian Hoad: both of our faces, as we've got
• 5:12
  Julian Hoad: a big fit of the giggles. So
• 5:12
  Julian Hoad: birds, birds, Neil?
• 5:19
  Mike Brampton: Birds, talk to us
• 5:19
  Mike Brampton: about birds because you and I
• 5:21
  Mike Brampton: met probably..
• 5:23
  Julian Hoad: bout 198
• 5:32
  Mike Brampton: And I was working
• 5:32
  Mike Brampton: on a project trying to make a
• 5:37
  Mike Brampton: pulse oximeter work in birds.
• 5:40
  Neil Forbes: Yep.
• 5:41
  Mike Brampton: You very kindly
• 5:41
  Mike Brampton: gave me a whole range of
• 5:46
  Mike Brampton: different birds to use my
• 5:46
  Mike Brampton: physiological skills to dissect
• 5:53
  Mike Brampton: and work out where the major
• 5:53
  Mike Brampton: blood vessels were on.
• 5:55
  Neil Forbes: Yep. Yep.
• 5:56
  Mike Brampton: Because obviously
• 5:56
  Mike Brampton: a swan. Yes, essentially, that
• 6:00
  Mike Brampton: the (Inaudible) is the same
• 6:02
  Neil Forbes: Sure. Sure.
• 6:03
  Mike Brampton: A swan has got a
• 6:03
  Mike Brampton: long neck and a parrot has got a
• 6:08
  Mike Brampton: very short neck. So if I'm going
• 6:08
  Mike Brampton: to measure, if we're if we're
• 6:12
  Mike Brampton: going to develop and measure
• 6:12
  Mike Brampton: something between the two, then
• 6:18
  Mike Brampton: that's a real challenge.
• 6:19
  Neil Forbes: And it's one of the
• 6:19
  Neil Forbes: things a lot of people forget,
• 6:21
  Neil Forbes: you know, they think normal
• 6:21
  Neil Forbes: veterinary practice, cats, dogs,
• 6:25
  Neil Forbes: or farm animals or horses. Oh,
• 6:25
  Neil Forbes: there's just birds. And they
• 6:30
  Neil Forbes: forget that there's over 9000
• 6:30
  Neil Forbes: different species and they come
• 6:33
  Neil Forbes: in different sizes. They eat
• 6:33
  Neil Forbes: different things, they locomote
• 6:37
  Neil Forbes: in different ways. And yes,
• 6:37
  Neil Forbes: their anatomy and physiology
• 6:40
  Neil Forbes: does vary tremendously.
• 6:43
  Mike Brampton: I found that
• 6:43
  Mike Brampton: fasinating
• 6:44
  Julian Hoad: and of course
• 6:44
  Julian Hoad: parrots have no gallbladder do
• 6:46
  Julian Hoad: they?
• 6:47
  Neil Forbes: Sorry, who didn't?
• 6:48
  Julian Hoad: parrots?
• 6:49
  Neil Forbes: Indeed they don't.
• 6:54
  Mike Brampton: There we go. 101
• 6:54
  Mike Brampton: I did not know that parrots have
• 6:57
  Mike Brampton: no gallbladder
• 6:59
  Julian Hoad: Mm hmm. So if
• 6:59
  Julian Hoad: you're if you're trying to
• 7:01
  Julian Hoad: ultrasound a parrot and you
• 7:01
  Julian Hoad: think 'Oh God, I can't find the
• 7:04
  Julian Hoad: gallbladder. That's fine. That's
• 7:04
  Julian Hoad: normal.
• 7:06
  Mike Brampton: That's good. So
• 7:06
  Mike Brampton: if you do find a gallbladder in
• 7:08
  Mike Brampton: a parrot?
• 7:09
  Julian Hoad: That's a bad thing.
• 7:09
  Julian Hoad: Either it's not a parrot. Or you
• 7:14
  Julian Hoad: found something other than a
• 7:14
  Julian Hoad: gallbladder.
• 7:18
  Neil Forbes: You know, I mean,
• 7:18
  Neil Forbes: quite seriously speaking,
• 7:21
  Neil Forbes: whether you're using a drug in a
• 7:21
  Neil Forbes: different species, you're doing
• 7:24
  Neil Forbes: a surgery in different species,
• 7:24
  Neil Forbes: no one for one moment would
• 7:27
  Neil Forbes: think that a cat or a dog would
• 7:27
  Neil Forbes: be the same or a horse or a cow
• 7:31
  Neil Forbes: would be the same. So actually,
• 7:31
  Neil Forbes: why should a chicken and a
• 7:34
  Neil Forbes: pigeon be the same? They are
• 7:34
  Neil Forbes: different species
• 7:38
  Julian Hoad: And they do have
• 7:38
  Julian Hoad: very different drug tolerances
• 7:41
  Julian Hoad: don't they
• 7:42
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely, yeah,
• 7:42
  Neil Forbes: yeah.
• 7:45
  Mike Brampton: Do you do you
• 7:45
  Mike Brampton: actually still see clients Neil,
• 7:48
  Mike Brampton: is that-
• 7:49
  Neil Forbes: Rarely, rarely.
• 7:49
  Neil Forbes: Yeah. So I you know, I left
• 7:52
  Neil Forbes: Great Western Exotics in Swindon
• 7:52
  Neil Forbes: in 2017. And then since then, I
• 7:59
  Neil Forbes: had some sort of family stuff to
• 7:59
  Neil Forbes: sort out and then I've just been
• 8:03
  Neil Forbes: doing consultancy work and some
• 8:03
  Neil Forbes: Zoo inspections, some training,
• 8:09
  Neil Forbes: some lecturing, some expert
• 8:09
  Neil Forbes: witness work, not very much. And
• 8:14
  Neil Forbes: some welfare inspections, so pet
• 8:14
  Neil Forbes: shops, and, and so on. And then
• 8:18
  Neil Forbes: of course, I'm majourly involved
• 8:18
  Neil Forbes: in my my voluntary vulture work.
• 8:24
  Julian Hoad: Now, I'm, there are
• 8:24
  Julian Hoad: three things I really want to
• 8:28
  Julian Hoad: chat to you tonight about. And
• 8:28
  Julian Hoad: and one of them is the vulture
• 8:30
  Julian Hoad: work. The other is is your
• 8:30
  Julian Hoad: antimicrobial work. And the
• 8:38
  Julian Hoad: other thing is about welfare of
• 8:38
  Julian Hoad: caged birds, because that's
• 8:45
  Julian Hoad: really close to my heart. But I
• 8:45
  Julian Hoad: didn't know how we're going to
• 8:48
  Julian Hoad: cram them all in. We may be here
• 8:48
  Julian Hoad: till the early morning.
• 8:51
  Neil Forbes: Which should we
• 8:51
  Neil Forbes: start, shall we start on the the
• 8:53
  Neil Forbes: easiest one, which is probably
• 8:53
  Neil Forbes: the welfare of birds in cages?
• 8:57
  Julian Hoad: Could we do that?
• 8:57
  Julian Hoad: Because we had Matt Rendle on
• 9:00
  Julian Hoad: recently, talking about people
• 9:00
  Julian Hoad: buying exotic animals without
• 9:07
  Julian Hoad: the faintest idea of how to look
• 9:07
  Julian Hoad: after them. Now, with birds,
• 9:12
  Julian Hoad: there's an even bigger problem,
• 9:12
  Julian Hoad: because I think birds suffer
• 9:17
  Julian Hoad: mentally. Hugely. Absolutely.
• 9:21
  Neil Forbes: Yeah. Now, I'm
• 9:21
  Neil Forbes: completely with you there and
• 9:23
  Neil Forbes: you know, obviously, I'm, I'm
• 9:23
  Neil Forbes: someone who spent 35 years of a
• 9:28
  Neil Forbes: career working predominantly
• 9:28
  Neil Forbes: with birds. And I can honestly
• 9:33
  Neil Forbes: say that my view and my
• 9:33
  Neil Forbes: understanding and belief about
• 9:36
  Neil Forbes: it all has varied over that
• 9:36
  Neil Forbes: period of time. But I think it's
• 9:39
  Neil Forbes: very true to say that just
• 9:39
  Neil Forbes: because people have kept parrots
• 9:42
  Neil Forbes: in cages by themselves for 300
• 9:42
  Neil Forbes: years does not make it right. If
• 9:49
  Neil Forbes: he, the more time you spend
• 9:49
  Neil Forbes: studying and looking into
• 9:53
  Neil Forbes: behavioural problems in
• 9:53
  Neil Forbes: particular feather plucking in
• 9:56
  Neil Forbes: in parrots, the more you
• 9:56
  Neil Forbes: appreciate that a bird plucks
• 10:00
  Neil Forbes: because it is failing to cope
• 10:00
  Neil Forbes: with some aspect of its
• 10:04
  Neil Forbes: husbandry or management. And
• 10:04
  Neil Forbes: yes, you can do all sorts of
• 10:08
  Neil Forbes: health screens for this than the
• 10:08
  Neil Forbes: other. But the fundamental
• 10:11
  Neil Forbes: underlying problem is, this is a
• 10:11
  Neil Forbes: gregarious bird that should be
• 10:15
  Neil Forbes: flying free in the wild, and
• 10:15
  Neil Forbes: taking it and shoving it by
• 10:20
  Neil Forbes: itself, particularly, it's been
• 10:20
  Neil Forbes: hand reared. So it's completely
• 10:23
  Neil Forbes: mentally screwed up, shoving it
• 10:23
  Neil Forbes: in a single cage, and you become
• 10:28
  Neil Forbes: that family becomes that birds,
• 10:28
  Neil Forbes: surrogate family. And then you
• 10:33
  Neil Forbes: go out to work or to school and
• 10:33
  Neil Forbes: the bird sits in a cage by
• 10:36
  Neil Forbes: itself for six or eight hours a
• 10:36
  Neil Forbes: day, and they expect it to grow
• 10:39
  Neil Forbes: up normally. You know, it's like
• 10:39
  Neil Forbes: taking, I mean, if you think
• 10:43
  Neil Forbes: about a parrot, it's like a in
• 10:43
  Neil Forbes: terms of mental ability is about
• 10:46
  Neil Forbes: like a three year old child.
• 10:46
  Neil Forbes: Would you put a three year old
• 10:50
  Neil Forbes: child in a cot in an empty
• 10:50
  Neil Forbes: bedroom and leave for eight
• 10:52
  Neil Forbes: hours a day? and expect it to
• 10:52
  Neil Forbes: grow up? Normally? No course you
• 10:56
  Neil Forbes: wouldn't.
• 10:58
  Mike Brampton: I realised I was
• 10:58
  Mike Brampton: nodding then. And you were
• 11:00
  Mike Brampton: saying, would you put a three
• 11:00
  Mike Brampton: year old?
• 11:02
  Julian Hoad: Mike would
• 11:02
  Julian Hoad: obviously.
• 11:04
  Neil Forbes: Of course. Of
• 11:04
  Neil Forbes: course he would.
• 11:05
  Mike Brampton: The parrot is a
• 11:05
  Mike Brampton: flock bird, isn't it?
• 11:08
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely.
• 11:08
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely. Flock.
• 11:10
  Mike Brampton: So it's, it's got
• 11:10
  Mike Brampton: his own immediate family unit.
• 11:13
  Neil Forbes: Yep. Yep.
• 11:14
  Mike Brampton: But then that
• 11:14
  Mike Brampton: family unit is part of
• 11:18
  Neil Forbes: part of a big flock
• 11:19
  Mike Brampton: A major flock?
• 11:19
  Mike Brampton: Yeah,
• 11:20
  Neil Forbes: Yep. And the normal
• 11:20
  Neil Forbes: parrot spends 50% of the day
• 11:25
  Neil Forbes: flying to and from feeding. It's
• 11:25
  Neil Forbes: spends 30% of the day playing
• 11:28
  Neil Forbes: with other members of the flock,
• 11:28
  Neil Forbes: and 20% eating. And it spends
• 11:33
  Neil Forbes: about 10% of the day resting and
• 11:33
  Neil Forbes: not doing very much. So you look
• 11:37
  Neil Forbes: at your pet bird, you say? Okay,
• 11:37
  Neil Forbes: so how long does it take to fly
• 11:41
  Neil Forbes: anywhere? Zero. How long does it
• 11:41
  Neil Forbes: take to eat anything? Well, it's
• 11:45
  Neil Forbes: in the bowl in front of him, you
• 11:45
  Neil Forbes: know, so probably maybe 20
• 11:48
  Neil Forbes: minutes in the day. And how long
• 11:48
  Neil Forbes: has he spent with have actually
• 11:53
  Neil Forbes: having companionship and
• 11:53
  Neil Forbes: stimulation from the family?
• 11:56
  Neil Forbes: Half an hour if he's lucky. So
• 11:56
  Neil Forbes: what's he going to do? He's he's
• 12:01
  Neil Forbes: going to develop behavioural
• 12:01
  Neil Forbes: problems, he's going to get
• 12:03
  Neil Forbes: mentally screwed up and have a
• 12:03
  Neil Forbes: lousy time. So when I say it's
• 12:06
  Neil Forbes: the simple one, it is the simple
• 12:06
  Neil Forbes: one in terms of it is, to my
• 12:11
  Neil Forbes: mind, absolutely wrong. There
• 12:11
  Neil Forbes: are already some European
• 12:14
  Neil Forbes: countries where keeping a single
• 12:14
  Neil Forbes: bird in a cage is illegal. And I
• 12:18
  Neil Forbes: think that's absolutely
• 12:18
  Neil Forbes: appropriate.
• 12:22
  Mike Brampton: Sorry, which
• 12:22
  Mike Brampton: countries are those?
• 12:26
  Neil Forbes: It may well be
• 12:26
  Neil Forbes: Sweden, it could be Belgium as
• 12:29
  Neil Forbes: well.
• 12:30
  Mike Brampton: Yeah.
• 12:30
  Neil Forbes: But I'm not I'm not
• 12:30
  Neil Forbes: sure. But there is a big, big
• 12:33
  Neil Forbes: movement about the keeping of
• 12:33
  Neil Forbes: exotic pets as pets in the first
• 12:38
  Neil Forbes: place. And Matt obviously
• 12:38
  Neil Forbes: touched on it. And the the
• 12:43
  Neil Forbes: European government, the EU
• 12:43
  Neil Forbes: government, parliament, and the
• 12:48
  Neil Forbes: Federation of veterinarians of
• 12:48
  Neil Forbes: Europe are both completely
• 12:52
  Neil Forbes: opposed to it. And in fact, I'm
• 12:52
  Neil Forbes: trying to think how many years
• 12:56
  Neil Forbes: ago it would have been probably
• 12:56
  Neil Forbes: 10 years ago now. I, at the
• 12:59
  Neil Forbes: time, when I was president of
• 12:59
  Neil Forbes: the European College of
• 13:01
  Neil Forbes: zoological medicine, I had to go
• 13:01
  Neil Forbes: and make a presentation to the
• 13:05
  Neil Forbes: European Parliament about it.
• 13:05
  Neil Forbes: And the basic, you know,
• 13:09
  Neil Forbes: everyone, in principle, people
• 13:09
  Neil Forbes: know how to look after a cat or
• 13:13
  Neil Forbes: a dog. When it comes to exotic
• 13:13
  Neil Forbes: animals, they simply don't. Now,
• 13:18
  Neil Forbes: there has been a very sensible
• 13:18
  Neil Forbes: proportionate solution put
• 13:24
  Neil Forbes: forward, which is supported by
• 13:24
  Neil Forbes: the British Veterinary
• 13:26
  Neil Forbes: Zoological Society and the
• 13:26
  Neil Forbes: British Veterinary Association,
• 13:28
  Neil Forbes: which is basically that you
• 13:28
  Neil Forbes: divide animals in terms of how
• 13:34
  Neil Forbes: difficult it is to keep them and
• 13:34
  Neil Forbes: you make training mandatory. So
• 13:40
  Neil Forbes: basically, someone could go
• 13:40
  Neil Forbes: online, they do a certain amount
• 13:43
  Neil Forbes: of training, and then yes, they
• 13:43
  Neil Forbes: can get themselves a budgerigar.
• 13:46
  Neil Forbes: And when they want to African
• 13:46
  Neil Forbes: grey parent, they have to do
• 13:48
  Neil Forbes: some more when they want to
• 13:48
  Neil Forbes: macore or let's say a lizard or
• 13:52
  Neil Forbes: a snake, you got to do more. So
• 13:52
  Neil Forbes: basically, in that way, because
• 13:57
  Neil Forbes: an awful lot of people would
• 13:57
  Neil Forbes: like to ban the keeping of
• 13:59
  Neil Forbes: European pets, that actually
• 13:59
  Neil Forbes: won't work, it will just push it
• 14:02
  Neil Forbes: underground, which will then
• 14:02
  Neil Forbes: mean when they get sick, they
• 14:06
  Neil Forbes: don't get treated. They get no
• 14:06
  Neil Forbes: advice from the veterinary
• 14:09
  Neil Forbes: profession. One of their
• 14:09
  Neil Forbes: criticisms and I have to say, is
• 14:12
  Neil Forbes: a lot of justification. One of
• 14:12
  Neil Forbes: the criticisms is, if they go to
• 14:16
  Neil Forbes: a vet, they typically don't get
• 14:16
  Neil Forbes: told anything very useful,
• 14:20
  Neil Forbes: because most vets know nothing
• 14:20
  Neil Forbes: about exotic pets. And that's
• 14:24
  Neil Forbes: because it doesn't get taught at
• 14:24
  Neil Forbes: university but and that's where
• 14:27
  Neil Forbes: we should advise exotic animal
• 14:27
  Neil Forbes: owners to go to exotic vets.
• 14:31
  Neil Forbes: Anyway, that's another subject.
• 14:31
  Neil Forbes: So what we were trying to do was
• 14:36
  Neil Forbes: to actually suggest that no one
• 14:36
  Neil Forbes: has exotic pets, unless they
• 14:41
  Neil Forbes: have training. They do training
• 14:41
  Neil Forbes: and a little bit of training for
• 14:46
  Neil Forbes: a simple animal, a lot more
• 14:46
  Neil Forbes: training for a more complex
• 14:49
  Neil Forbes: animal and ones that really
• 14:49
  Neil Forbes: shouldn't be kept at all, you
• 14:52
  Neil Forbes: know, killer whale or whatever,
• 14:52
  Neil Forbes: obviously are completely off off
• 14:56
  Neil Forbes: the grid. Now there are some
• 14:56
  Neil Forbes: European countries who have gone
• 14:59
  Neil Forbes: the other way. They have what
• 14:59
  Neil Forbes: called a positive list, which
• 15:02
  Neil Forbes: means they have a list of maybe
• 15:02
  Neil Forbes: a dozen exotic animals, which
• 15:07
  Neil Forbes: you are allowed to keep, and
• 15:07
  Neil Forbes: nothing else you are allowed to
• 15:10
  Neil Forbes: keep. Some countries go forward
• 15:10
  Neil Forbes: to the negative list. In other
• 15:14
  Neil Forbes: words, these are the ones you
• 15:14
  Neil Forbes: can't, but everything else you
• 15:16
  Neil Forbes: can, whereas BVA, beavers at s
• 15:16
  Neil Forbes: have gone along the line of,
• 15:21
  Neil Forbes: there are some of you definitely
• 15:21
  Neil Forbes: can't. But all of them, you have
• 15:25
  Neil Forbes: to you should have to undergo
• 15:25
  Neil Forbes: some training in order to be
• 15:28
  Neil Forbes: able to keep it and step it up
• 15:28
  Neil Forbes: and step it up, step it up. Now,
• 15:31
  Neil Forbes: when I when I spoke to the EU
• 15:31
  Neil Forbes: parliament, I put this
• 15:35
  Neil Forbes: particular policy forward. And
• 15:35
  Neil Forbes: they said, Okay, well, you've
• 15:38
  Neil Forbes: got 10 years to get it in place,
• 15:38
  Neil Forbes: and sort the problem out,
• 15:44
  Neil Forbes: because if it hasn't happened
• 15:44
  Neil Forbes: after that time, we're going to
• 15:46
  Neil Forbes: ban it. And that was 10 years
• 15:46
  Neil Forbes: ago.
• 15:50
  Julian Hoad: So they're going to
• 15:50
  Julian Hoad: ban the...
• 15:51
  Neil Forbes: Well, they would
• 15:51
  Neil Forbes: like to I mean, it's true, it's
• 15:54
  Neil Forbes: true to say that some countries,
• 15:54
  Neil Forbes: Netherlands is one and Belgium
• 15:58
  Neil Forbes: is certainly another and Sweden
• 15:58
  Neil Forbes: is another where quite a lot has
• 16:02
  Neil Forbes: been done. Whether it's been
• 16:02
  Neil Forbes: done, you know, in a sympathetic
• 16:05
  Neil Forbes: way is debatable. And suddenly,
• 16:05
  Neil Forbes: then we were trying to get to a
• 16:13
  Neil Forbes: point where actually people
• 16:13
  Neil Forbes: like, so they were the
• 16:16
  Neil Forbes: specialist and exotic animal
• 16:16
  Neil Forbes: medicine across Europe, get them
• 16:21
  Neil Forbes: to actually put forward a
• 16:21
  Neil Forbes: solution that would suit every
• 16:25
  Neil Forbes: country in Europe, because it
• 16:25
  Neil Forbes: doesn't make any sense at all,
• 16:28
  Neil Forbes: for one country that's next to
• 16:28
  Neil Forbes: another country to have totally
• 16:31
  Neil Forbes: different rules on what you can
• 16:31
  Neil Forbes: keep and how you can keep and
• 16:33
  Neil Forbes: how you can buy it and how you
• 16:33
  Neil Forbes: can sell it. So it's a
• 16:36
  Neil Forbes: nightmare. It does need to be
• 16:36
  Neil Forbes: sorted out. And one has to say
• 16:40
  Neil Forbes: there are a lot of animals that
• 16:40
  Neil Forbes: are suffering as a result of
• 16:44
  Neil Forbes: poor knowledge. I mean, give you
• 16:44
  Neil Forbes: a strange statistic, the animal
• 16:48
  Neil Forbes: that is most commonly found in a
• 16:48
  Neil Forbes: bedroom, is kept in a bedroom,
• 16:53
  Neil Forbes: is a reptile, typically, because
• 16:53
  Neil Forbes: they're kept by a teenager. And
• 16:57
  Neil Forbes: the parents don't actually want
• 16:57
  Neil Forbes: it. So the teenager keeps it in
• 17:00
  Neil Forbes: the bedroom. A you know, start
• 17:00
  Neil Forbes: off with the premise every
• 17:05
  Neil Forbes: reptile has salmonella, unless
• 17:05
  Neil Forbes: proven otherwise. Actually,
• 17:09
  Neil Forbes: having it in the bedroom is not
• 17:09
  Neil Forbes: a smart place for it to be. The
• 17:12
  Neil Forbes: parents don't know what's going
• 17:12
  Neil Forbes: on with it.
• 17:14
  Julian Hoad: I guess they could
• 17:14
  Julian Hoad: be feeding their dog raw food as
• 17:16
  Julian Hoad: well, couldn't they? So they'll
• 17:16
  Julian Hoad: be they'll be similar
• 17:20
  Julian Hoad: downstairs. So that's all right.
• 17:24
  Neil Forbes: No, but you know,
• 17:24
  Neil Forbes: it's it's, it's a crazy, crazy
• 17:27
  Neil Forbes: situation. And I have to say as
• 17:27
  Neil Forbes: an exotic animal. As someone
• 17:33
  Neil Forbes: who's worked in head of a
• 17:33
  Neil Forbes: referral, exotic animal service
• 17:36
  Neil Forbes: for 15 years, 20 years. And a
• 17:36
  Neil Forbes: specialist in avian medicine, I
• 17:41
  Neil Forbes: you know, I will be completely
• 17:41
  Neil Forbes: in favour of a complete overhaul
• 17:46
  Neil Forbes: of the keeping of exotic
• 17:46
  Neil Forbes: animals, for the better for the
• 17:49
  Neil Forbes: improvement of the welfare, and
• 17:49
  Neil Forbes: also human safety. But primarily
• 17:55
  Neil Forbes: the welfare of the animals. And
• 17:55
  Neil Forbes: to give you another crazy
• 17:58
  Neil Forbes: statistic, if you look at the
• 17:58
  Neil Forbes: data now on importation of
• 18:03
  Neil Forbes: animals into the UK for sale to
• 18:03
  Neil Forbes: the the pet trade 95% of it is
• 18:10
  Neil Forbes: fish. Some of that, some of them
• 18:10
  Neil Forbes: are captive bred, but an awful
• 18:17
  Neil Forbes: lot of them are wild caught.
• 18:18
  Mike Brampton: Yeah.
• 18:19
  Neil Forbes: Now have we not
• 18:19
  Neil Forbes: learned enough about taking
• 18:22
  Neil Forbes: mammals from the wild, reptiles
• 18:22
  Neil Forbes: from the wild, birds from the
• 18:25
  Neil Forbes: wild? You know, one of the few
• 18:25
  Neil Forbes: areas that has not yet been
• 18:30
  Neil Forbes: completely fished out is the
• 18:30
  Neil Forbes: seas?
• 18:33
  Julian Hoad: Yeah.
• 18:34
  Neil Forbes: And you know, okay,
• 18:34
  Neil Forbes: I know there are those people
• 18:37
  Neil Forbes: who will argue that there are
• 18:37
  Neil Forbes: local communities who are
• 18:39
  Neil Forbes: actually earning a living,
• 18:39
  Neil Forbes: they're feeding their family
• 18:45
  Neil Forbes: based on farming of fish for the
• 18:45
  Neil Forbes: pet trade. And where they are
• 18:51
  Neil Forbes: actually properly captured
• 18:51
  Neil Forbes: farming, I don't have a problem.
• 18:55
  Neil Forbes: But the reality is, you know,
• 18:56
  Julian Hoad: It doesn't make it
• 18:56
  Julian Hoad: right though, does it?
• 18:58
  Neil Forbes: It doesn't make it
• 18:58
  Neil Forbes: right. I mean, why should you
• 19:00
  Neil Forbes: take a little tiny fish and fly
• 19:00
  Neil Forbes: it from one end of the world to
• 19:04
  Neil Forbes: the other end of the world for
• 19:04
  Neil Forbes: someone to get joy sitting in a
• 19:07
  Neil Forbes: sitting room in the UK? That
• 19:07
  Neil Forbes: does to me, that does not make
• 19:10
  Neil Forbes: sense at all. Yeah. So in I
• 19:10
  Neil Forbes: think there are some things that
• 19:14
  Neil Forbes: really need to be sorted out.
• 19:14
  Neil Forbes: And importation of wild caught
• 19:19
  Neil Forbes: fishes is one that I think is
• 19:19
  Neil Forbes: morally incorrect in this day
• 19:23
  Neil Forbes: and age.
• 19:24
  Julian Hoad: I think I couldn't
• 19:24
  Julian Hoad: agree more with you, Neil.
• 19:26
  Julian Hoad: Actually, I go even further than
• 19:26
  Julian Hoad: that, to say that I think people
• 19:31
  Julian Hoad: should take an exam in order to
• 19:31
  Julian Hoad: look after rabbits, and guinea
• 19:35
  Julian Hoad: pigs. I mentioned Sweden earlier
• 19:35
  Julian Hoad: because Sweden has a ban on
• 19:38
  Julian Hoad: keeping single guinea pigs.
• 19:38
  Julian Hoad: Yeah, it's legal to keep one
• 19:42
  Julian Hoad: guinea pig. And there are so
• 19:42
  Julian Hoad: many guinea pigs and rabbits
• 19:47
  Julian Hoad: that I see as a general
• 19:47
  Julian Hoad: practitioner, that I see through
• 19:55
  Julian Hoad: reasons of neglect.
• 19:56
  Neil Forbes: Yep, yep.
• 19:57
  Julian Hoad: And as soon as you
• 19:57
  Julian Hoad: say that to the owners, you lose
• 20:01
  Julian Hoad: them, you lose their attention.
• 20:01
  Julian Hoad: So you have to say 'Oh, you,ve
• 20:06
  Julian Hoad: got a lovely little pet, how are
• 20:06
  Julian Hoad: you? Fantastic. And what I would
• 20:10
  Julian Hoad: do is this instead' as
• 20:10
  Julian Hoad: mollycoddle them when what I
• 20:13
  Julian Hoad: really want to say is you utter
• 20:13
  Julian Hoad: bastard, why would you decide to
• 20:17
  Julian Hoad: keep this without looking into
• 20:17
  Julian Hoad: what it needs.
• 20:21
  Neil Forbes: Yeah, yeah. And
• 20:21
  Neil Forbes: rabbits rabbits are a good
• 20:24
  Neil Forbes: example. You know, obviously a
• 20:24
  Neil Forbes: common pet nowadays. And, you
• 20:27
  Neil Forbes: know, we're thrilled that the
• 20:27
  Neil Forbes: rabbit is now generally
• 20:30
  Neil Forbes: speaking, a house rabbit is not
• 20:30
  Neil Forbes: in a Hutch at the bottom of the
• 20:33
  Neil Forbes: garden being totally ignored or
• 20:33
  Neil Forbes: looked after by the children.
• 20:36
  Neil Forbes: But there are other problems
• 20:36
  Neil Forbes: that come in. And if you look at
• 20:40
  Neil Forbes: the problems that rabbits have,
• 20:40
  Neil Forbes: particularly dental problems,
• 20:42
  Neil Forbes: you know, so much of that is
• 20:42
  Neil Forbes: down to nutrition. 99% of
• 20:49
  Neil Forbes: nutrition, maybe a little bit of
• 20:49
  Neil Forbes: lack of daylight as well, but
• 20:52
  Neil Forbes: you know, and a lot of their gut
• 20:52
  Neil Forbes: problems, again, lack of fibre,
• 20:56
  Neil Forbes: too much carbohydrate, too much
• 20:56
  Neil Forbes: protein in the diet. So, you
• 20:59
  Neil Forbes: know, there's Yes, you're
• 20:59
  Neil Forbes: absolutely right. And and if we
• 21:02
  Neil Forbes: compare that with the cat and
• 21:02
  Neil Forbes: the dog, then there are few cats
• 21:06
  Neil Forbes: and dogs that come in with
• 21:06
  Neil Forbes: basic, they've been fed the
• 21:09
  Neil Forbes: wrong food, or in the wrong way.
• 21:09
  Neil Forbes: And you know, there are other
• 21:16
  Neil Forbes: problems with rabbits as well,
• 21:16
  Neil Forbes: so
• 21:17
  Julian Hoad: There are obesity
• 21:17
  Julian Hoad: problems in dogs and cats. Which
• 21:21
  Julian Hoad: I guess is a different thing.
• 21:21
  Julian Hoad: There are obesity problems in
• 21:24
  Julian Hoad: humans.
• 21:24
  Neil Forbes: Yeah.
• 21:25
  Julian Hoad: And you only need
• 21:25
  Julian Hoad: to put the camera down to see
• 21:28
  Julian Hoad: that here. But yeah, that's a
• 21:28
  Julian Hoad: that's a different form of
• 21:33
  Julian Hoad: neglect, I think, the primary
• 21:33
  Julian Hoad: neglect is, is with not knowing
• 21:37
  Julian Hoad: the faintest thing about the
• 21:37
  Julian Hoad: species your keeping. And
• 21:42
  Julian Hoad: that's, that's what gets to me,
• 21:42
  Julian Hoad: I think, as you say
• 21:45
  Neil Forbes: And I think that,
• 21:45
  Neil Forbes: you know, I'm there a number of
• 21:47
  Neil Forbes: factors, pet shops, are obliged
• 21:47
  Neil Forbes: to provide information on
• 21:53
  Neil Forbes: correct husbandry at the point
• 21:53
  Neil Forbes: of sale. Historically, they
• 21:58
  Neil Forbes: would just have books for sale.
• 21:58
  Neil Forbes: And of course, by the time
• 22:00
  Neil Forbes: someone's buying a rabbit,
• 22:00
  Neil Forbes: they're not going to buy the
• 22:02
  Neil Forbes: book. Nowadays, they have to be
• 22:02
  Neil Forbes: given a booklet to take home
• 22:06
  Neil Forbes: with some information. And and I
• 22:06
  Neil Forbes: would dearly love it, I was b
• 22:12
  Neil Forbes: sy giving a webinar on rab
• 22:12
  Neil Forbes: it medicine just the other night
• 22:14
  Neil Forbes: with Molly Varga. And, and I, i
• 22:14
  Neil Forbes: you say, Well, where's the pro
• 22:19
  Neil Forbes: lem? If the shops aren't goi
• 22:19
  Neil Forbes: g to give them any better advice
• 22:22
  Neil Forbes: The next port of call should b
• 22:22
  Neil Forbes: the veterinary profession?
• 22:27
  Julian Hoad: Yes.
• 22:27
  Neil Forbes: So how many vets
• 22:27
  Neil Forbes: were, at that time of the first
• 22:30
  Neil Forbes: consultation, how, how many vets
• 22:30
  Neil Forbes: actually sit down and talk about
• 22:36
  Neil Forbes: proper nutrition, dental care,
• 22:36
  Neil Forbes: play strike prevention,
• 22:40
  Neil Forbes: management of their coats, their
• 22:40
  Neil Forbes: ears, etc, etc. And to do that
• 22:47
  Neil Forbes: properly, it's a minimum of half
• 22:47
  Neil Forbes: an hour. And the answer is
• 22:51
  Neil Forbes: they're not, unless you go to an
• 22:51
  Neil Forbes: exotic practice where, you know,
• 22:54
  Neil Forbes: usually a console period will be
• 22:54
  Neil Forbes: half an hour because they will
• 22:58
  Neil Forbes: be trying to do it properly. But
• 22:58
  Neil Forbes: in a general practice, they are
• 23:02
  Neil Forbes: not going to spend half an hour.
• 23:02
  Neil Forbes: And with the best will in the
• 23:04
  Neil Forbes: world, the majority of vets and
• 23:04
  Neil Forbes: nurses won't actually know and I
• 23:09
  Neil Forbes: just said the majority, there
• 23:09
  Neil Forbes: are some very, very good rabbit
• 23:12
  Neil Forbes: aware practices. And of course,
• 23:12
  Neil Forbes: the house rabbit association is
• 23:15
  Neil Forbes: now giving now gold rabbit
• 23:15
  Neil Forbes: status to practice which is
• 23:18
  Neil Forbes: wonderful. So they're trying to
• 23:18
  Neil Forbes: encourage better but improved
• 23:24
  Neil Forbes: rabbit medicine and care. But
• 23:24
  Neil Forbes: it's not as good as it should
• 23:27
  Neil Forbes: be. That's for sure.
• 23:28
  Julian Hoad: It's not. And the
• 23:28
  Julian Hoad: other problem, the other side of
• 23:32
  Julian Hoad: that coin is, they can't get
• 23:32
  Julian Hoad: advice from the vets if they
• 23:35
  Julian Hoad: don't go to the vets in the
• 23:35
  Julian Hoad: first place.
• 23:36
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely.
• 23:37
  Julian Hoad: And very few
• 23:37
  Julian Hoad: rabbits and guinea pigs and any
• 23:42
  Julian Hoad: other exotic animals are sold
• 23:42
  Julian Hoad: with the advice take this to
• 23:48
  Julian Hoad: your vet.
• 23:49
  Neil Forbes: Yeah.
• 23:49
  Julian Hoad: Within within the
• 23:49
  Julian Hoad: first week of ownership and get
• 23:53
  Julian Hoad: advice on this animals husbandry
• 23:53
  Julian Hoad: and check so there's a guy down
• 24:00
  Julian Hoad: the road actually, very good
• 24:00
  Julian Hoad: friend of mine, that keeps
• 24:03
  Julian Hoad: rabbits and keeps them
• 24:03
  Julian Hoad: perfectly, absolutely wonderful
• 24:08
  Julian Hoad: owner. He's got some outside
• 24:08
  Julian Hoad: runs. He's got some inside, some
• 24:13
  Julian Hoad: house rabbits, he keeps them
• 24:13
  Julian Hoad: really well and he rescues
• 24:18
  Julian Hoad: rabbits that have been neglected
• 24:18
  Julian Hoad: and brings a rabbit to me once a
• 24:24
  Julian Hoad: month or so, new rabbits
• 24:24
  Julian Hoad: obviously, with another sob
• 24:28
  Julian Hoad: story. Last week, a three year
• 24:28
  Julian Hoad: old rabbit who was the pet a six
• 24:38
  Julian Hoad: year old girl and had not been
• 24:38
  Julian Hoad: fed anything other than the
• 24:44
  Julian Hoad: variety mix.
• 24:45
  Neil Forbes: Yes, disaster,
• 24:45
  Neil Forbes: disaster.
• 24:50
  Julian Hoad: yeah. I can't do
• 24:50
  Julian Hoad: anything but give it a fairly
• 24:54
  Julian Hoad: poor prognosis. I see that we're
• 24:54
  Julian Hoad: going to be removing some teeth,
• 25:00
  Julian Hoad: we're going to be having it in
• 25:00
  Julian Hoad: for dental every three to four
• 25:04
  Julian Hoad: weeks. If that's even enoug
• 25:04
  Julian Hoad: , I don't know
• 25:07
  Neil Forbes: but then, you know,
• 25:07
  Neil Forbes: as a professional I mean, you
• 25:10
  Neil Forbes: know, having worked in an exotic
• 25:10
  Neil Forbes: referral service, I can say that
• 25:14
  Neil Forbes: we would regularly be seeing
• 25:14
  Neil Forbes: female entire rabbits with
• 25:18
  Neil Forbes: uterine adenocarcinoma. And
• 25:18
  Neil Forbes: okay, the latest of the latest
• 25:23
  Neil Forbes: data is that probably its not as
• 25:23
  Neil Forbes: common as it was once thought.
• 25:27
  Neil Forbes: So the old data was that 50% of
• 25:27
  Neil Forbes: three year old female rabbits
• 25:31
  Neil Forbes: would have uterine
• 25:31
  Neil Forbes: adenocarcinoma. And it's it's
• 25:33
  Neil Forbes: not that bad. But when you
• 25:36
  Mike Brampton: But it's still
• 25:36
  Mike Brampton: around 30%?
• 25:39
  Neil Forbes: Yeah, it's still a
• 25:39
  Neil Forbes: very, very high level. And and
• 25:42
  Neil Forbes: when you talk to the owner, you
• 25:42
  Neil Forbes: know, they arrive and this
• 25:45
  Neil Forbes: rabbits got hematuria. And you
• 25:45
  Neil Forbes: have a quick feel of its
• 25:48
  Neil Forbes: abdomen, and you feel this
• 25:48
  Neil Forbes: warmer lump in its uterine area.
• 25:53
  Neil Forbes: And you said, well, you know,
• 25:53
  Neil Forbes: were you never given any advice
• 25:56
  Neil Forbes: to have it spayed? And the
• 25:56
  Neil Forbes: answer comes back. 'Oh, well, we
• 25:59
  Neil Forbes: discussed it with the vet and
• 25:59
  Neil Forbes: they said the risk of giving a
• 26:02
  Neil Forbes: rabbit an anaesthetic was
• 26:02
  Neil Forbes: greater than the risk of it
• 26:05
  Neil Forbes: having uterine adenocarcinoma,
• 26:05
  Neil Forbes: so it wasn't spayed'
• 26:10
  Julian Hoad: wheras their advice
• 26:10
  Julian Hoad: should be as a practice, we're
• 26:13
  Julian Hoad: not comfortable with doing that,
• 26:13
  Julian Hoad: however,
• 26:15
  Neil Forbes: Exactly, exactly
• 26:17
  Julian Hoad: if you take it to
• 26:17
  Julian Hoad: this practice down the road, are
• 26:20
  Julian Hoad: equipped to do it. It's a ver
• 26:20
  Julian Hoad: safe procedure.
• 26:22
  Neil Forbes: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 26:22
  Neil Forbes: So I mean, I mean, just to cover
• 26:26
  Neil Forbes: that one off, the data is the
• 26:26
  Neil Forbes: anesthetic mortality level is 12
• 26:30
  Neil Forbes: times higher than normal.
• 26:31
  Mike Brampton: Yeah. Yeah.
• 26:32
  Neil Forbes: And only 38% of
• 26:32
  Neil Forbes: rabbits having a GA in the UK,
• 26:37
  Neil Forbes: have their airway maintained.
• 26:37
  Neil Forbes: That's either an ET tube or
• 26:40
  Neil Forbes: Vgel.
• 26:42
  Mike Brampton: That's
• 26:42
  Mike Brampton: outrageous.
• 26:43
  Neil Forbes: It is absolutely
• 26:43
  Neil Forbes: outrageous. It is, it is just
• 26:47
  Neil Forbes: ignorance, straightforward
• 26:47
  Neil Forbes: ignorance. And, you know, vet's
• 26:51
  Neil Forbes: who, you know, you you, you sign
• 26:51
  Neil Forbes: your RCVS charter and you say,
• 26:55
  Neil Forbes: you're going to be a good
• 26:55
  Neil Forbes: person, and you're going to look
• 26:57
  Neil Forbes: after the welfare of your
• 26:57
  Neil Forbes: patients,
• 26:59
  Julian Hoad: Above all, do no
• 26:59
  Julian Hoad: harm.
• 27:01
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely. And and
• 27:01
  Neil Forbes: you're absolutely right, Julian,
• 27:06
  Neil Forbes: that if you are not in a
• 27:06
  Neil Forbes: practice where you cannot
• 27:10
  Neil Forbes: provide a safe anaesthetic and
• 27:10
  Neil Forbes: spay the rabbit, send it
• 27:12
  Neil Forbes: somewhere else. And I can
• 27:12
  Neil Forbes: honestly say, as a clinical
• 27:15
  Neil Forbes: service, giving anaesthetics to
• 27:15
  Neil Forbes: rabbits, you know, 3/4/5, every
• 27:20
  Neil Forbes: day, our mortality level was
• 27:20
  Neil Forbes: very, very, very low. And I
• 27:27
  Neil Forbes: can't honestly think you know,
• 27:27
  Neil Forbes: probably in all the time two or
• 27:30
  Neil Forbes: three rabbits it, it will be no
• 27:30
  Neil Forbes: greater than it would be for a
• 27:33
  Neil Forbes: cat or a dog. And that's, and
• 27:33
  Neil Forbes: you know, one of the take home
• 27:36
  Neil Forbes: messages is what you do
• 27:36
  Neil Forbes: regularly, you tend to be fairly
• 27:38
  Neil Forbes: good at. Yeah.
• 27:42
  Julian Hoad: Thanks for that. I
• 27:42
  Julian Hoad: really, really appreciate your
• 27:44
  Julian Hoad: view on that.
• 27:48
  Neil Forbes: So anyway, so
• 27:48
  Neil Forbes: that's the first one. Now you
• 27:51
  Neil Forbes: want to talk about vultures and
• 27:51
  Neil Forbes: what was the other one?
• 27:53
  Mike Brampton: Hang on! I want
• 27:53
  Mike Brampton: to talk about gin.
• 27:58
  Julian Hoad: Mike, you're gonna
• 27:58
  Julian Hoad: go off and show us how to do a
• 28:00
  Julian Hoad: gin?
• 28:01
  Mike Brampton: I gonna go off
• 28:01
  Mike Brampton: and show you how to make a
• 28:03
  Mike Brampton: proper gin.
• 28:04
  Julian Hoad: Great.
• 28:06
  Neil Forbes: Great. We got rid
• 28:06
  Neil Forbes: of him. Julian. What shall we
• 28:08
  Neil Forbes: talk about now?
• 28:12
  Mike Brampton: Tonight, I'm
• 28:12
  Mike Brampton: gonna make you up a really
• 28:15
  Mike Brampton: refreshing summer gin. Malfy
• 28:15
  Mike Brampton: pink grapefruit. So, as usual,
• 28:23
  Mike Brampton: before we start, I'm going to
• 28:23
  Mike Brampton: prepare the glass. Just zesting
• 28:28
  Mike Brampton: off some grapefruit and Malfy
• 28:28
  Mike Brampton: say that there grapefruits are
• 28:35
  Mike Brampton: sunrippened Sicilian pink
• 28:35
  Mike Brampton: grapefruit. I can't guarantee
• 28:40
  Mike Brampton: that this is a Sicilian ripened
• 28:40
  Mike Brampton: pink grapefruit. In with the
• 28:47
  Mike Brampton: trademark meteorite as Julian
• 28:47
  Mike Brampton: calls it, a big chunk of ice. So
• 28:56
  Mike Brampton: tonight, we're just gonna go for
• 28:56
  Mike Brampton: a straightforward double
• 29:02
  Mike Brampton: measure. Oh dear. Oh, that's
• 29:02
  Mike Brampton: sad. Oh, dear. Oh, well. What
• 29:12
  Mike Brampton: that means is we can save on the
• 29:12
  Mike Brampton: tonic water because we won't
• 29:15
  Mike Brampton: need that much in there. Here we
• 29:15
  Mike Brampton: go. Let's watch these bubbles go
• 29:21
  Mike Brampton: again.
• 29:29
  Mike Brampton: Sparkling, refreshing, aerating
• 29:29
  Mike Brampton: into the bottom of the glass.
• 29:35
  Mike Brampton: There we go. Malfy pink,
• 29:35
  Mike Brampton: grapefruit gin, and fevertree
• 29:42
  Mike Brampton: diet tonic. Cheers.
• 29:50
  Julian Hoad: Shall we move on to
• 29:50
  Julian Hoad: vultures?
• 29:52
  Neil Forbes: Let's, Let's do
• 29:52
  Neil Forbes: that. Yes. Yeah, they are just
• 29:55
  Neil Forbes: gorgeous. People think they're
• 29:55
  Neil Forbes: ugly. They're really, really
• 29:57
  Neil Forbes: not. They are incredible, I
• 29:57
  Neil Forbes: think they're incredibly
• 30:00
  Neil Forbes: attractive. But the important
• 30:00
  Neil Forbes: thing to understand, I mean,
• 30:03
  Neil Forbes: firstly, vultures are the most
• 30:03
  Neil Forbes: endangered of birds in the
• 30:09
  Neil Forbes: world. And they are incredibly
• 30:09
  Neil Forbes: important.
• 30:13
  Julian Hoad: I didn't know that
• 30:13
  Julian Hoad: at all, did you Mike?
• 30:15
  Mike Brampton: What's that?
• 30:16
  Neil Forbes: As a total group,
• 30:16
  Neil Forbes: the vulture, the vulture group
• 30:19
  Neil Forbes: are more threatened globally
• 30:19
  Neil Forbes: than any other group of birds.
• 30:22
  Julian Hoad: So why should that
• 30:22
  Julian Hoad: be?
• 30:24
  Neil Forbes: Well, firstly, let
• 30:24
  Neil Forbes: me tell you the benefits of
• 30:28
  Neil Forbes: vultures so for example, on the
• 30:28
  Neil Forbes: Masai Mara,
• 30:31
  Julian Hoad: Can i just sort of
• 30:31
  Julian Hoad: interject that I did have one
• 30:33
  Julian Hoad: once I don't know whether I
• 30:33
  Julian Hoad: should admit this, but I had I
• 30:36
  Julian Hoad: had I had an HMV voucher. 20
• 30:36
  Julian Hoad: quid.
• 30:42
  Neil Forbes: Hmm. HMV voucher,
• 30:45
  Mike Brampton: that's a voucher.
• 30:47
  Neil Forbes: Okay. So So first
• 30:47
  Neil Forbes: thing to explain is, for
• 30:58
  Neil Forbes: example, on the Masai Mara 75%
• 30:58
  Neil Forbes: of fallen stock is consumed by
• 31:03
  Neil Forbes: vultures. Okay, so they serve a
• 31:03
  Neil Forbes: very, very useful purpose. They
• 31:07
  Neil Forbes: are described as nature's
• 31:07
  Neil Forbes: cleanup crew. They have the
• 31:10
  Neil Forbes: ability to eat food that's
• 31:10
  Neil Forbes: contaminated with anthrax with
• 31:13
  Neil Forbes: salmonella, e. coli, etc, etc.
• 31:13
  Neil Forbes: And they neutralise it and poop
• 31:17
  Neil Forbes: out things that aren't
• 31:17
  Neil Forbes: dangerous. Okay, so they're
• 31:20
  Neil Forbes: really, really important. Now,
• 31:20
  Neil Forbes: in terms of massive vulture
• 31:24
  Neil Forbes: problems - first let's talk
• 31:24
  Neil Forbes: about vultures in Asia - during
• 31:31
  Neil Forbes: the late 70s and the 80s, there
• 31:31
  Neil Forbes: was a massive decline of
• 31:35
  Neil Forbes: vultures in Asia, they lost
• 31:35
  Neil Forbes: literally 99.9% of the total
• 31:39
  Neil Forbes: population. And yeah, 99% and
• 31:39
  Neil Forbes: there's a hundreds of thousands
• 31:44
  Neil Forbes: of vultures died. And this was
• 31:44
  Neil Forbes: basically down to the you know,
• 31:49
  Neil Forbes: got all the researchers in there
• 31:49
  Neil Forbes: did some research and they found
• 31:52
  Neil Forbes: that it was due to the use of a
• 31:52
  Neil Forbes: human and veterinary
• 31:56
  Neil Forbes: nonsteroidal anti inflammatory
• 31:56
  Neil Forbes: called diclofenac. And if cattle
• 32:02
  Neil Forbes: carcasses or human carcasses are
• 32:02
  Neil Forbes: medicated with this nonsteroidal
• 32:08
  Neil Forbes: before death, and then the
• 32:08
  Neil Forbes: carcass is eaten by vultures
• 32:12
  Neil Forbes: afterwards. And just before
• 32:12
  Neil Forbes: anyone thinks this is strange,
• 32:15
  Neil Forbes: the Parsi sect in India
• 32:15
  Neil Forbes: historically their their method
• 32:21
  Neil Forbes: of disposal of their bodies is
• 32:21
  Neil Forbes: to strap the carcasses in a
• 32:25
  Neil Forbes: tower and they're eaten by
• 32:25
  Neil Forbes: vultures so you know, it is
• 32:29
  Neil Forbes: human carcasses and -
• 32:33
  Mike Brampton: that's the type
• 32:33
  Mike Brampton: of sky burial isn't it? sky
• 32:35
  Mike Brampton: burial in areas like Tibet is
• 32:35
  Mike Brampton: where the body is taken to the
• 32:42
  Mike Brampton: top of the mountain. And then
• 32:42
  Mike Brampton: the funeral director will enable
• 32:50
  Mike Brampton: the birds to dispose of body.
• 32:50
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's
• 32:57
  Mike Brampton: traditional sky burial. Okay,
• 33:00
  Neil Forbes: so So anyway, so
• 33:00
  Neil Forbes: what we're getting at is 99.9%
• 33:04
  Neil Forbes: of in of Asia's vultures died
• 33:04
  Neil Forbes: due to like Claire phonic
• 33:09
  Neil Forbes: poisoning them in the late 70s
• 33:09
  Neil Forbes: and 80s. Okay, now, thankfully,
• 33:14
  Julian Hoad: Is that to do with
• 33:14
  Julian Hoad: gastric ulceration or liver,
• 33:16
  Neil Forbes: kidney, kidney
• 33:16
  Neil Forbes: failure. Yeah, yeah. That
• 33:21
  Neil Forbes: situation- No, no, you can carry
• 33:21
  Neil Forbes: on drinking Mike. Good, you may
• 33:26
  Neil Forbes: have to drink more because of
• 33:26
  Neil Forbes: the with the renal failure, but
• 33:31
  Neil Forbes: you can carry on. Anyway, back
• 33:31
  Neil Forbes: back to the serious matter. All
• 33:36
  Neil Forbes: these vultures died, thankfully
• 33:36
  Neil Forbes: due to a whole load of people
• 33:40
  Neil Forbes: getting together forming an
• 33:40
  Neil Forbes: organisation called SAVE, which
• 33:43
  Neil Forbes: has saved Asian vultures from
• 33:43
  Neil Forbes: extinction. And they worked so
• 33:46
  Neil Forbes: that they found out the problem
• 33:46
  Neil Forbes: they worked with the politicians
• 33:50
  Neil Forbes: and generally speaking have got
• 33:50
  Neil Forbes: like diclofenac removed from the
• 33:54
  Neil Forbes: food chain, it's not completely
• 33:54
  Neil Forbes: effective, but but in a greater
• 33:58
  Neil Forbes: part it is. And then they've
• 33:58
  Neil Forbes: taken birds into captivity.
• 34:03
  Neil Forbes: They've been doing a captive
• 34:03
  Neil Forbes: breeding programme, and they've
• 34:06
  Neil Forbes: been releasing birds back to the
• 34:06
  Neil Forbes: wild. And it is, you know,
• 34:09
  Neil Forbes: slowly bit by bit. It's all
• 34:09
  Neil Forbes: improving. Okay, so let's Park
• 34:13
  Neil Forbes: Asia for a moment and move on to
• 34:13
  Neil Forbes: Africa. Africa is a much sorry a
• 34:17
  Neil Forbes: tale, because Africa's vulture
• 34:17
  Neil Forbes: population has been going down
• 34:21
  Neil Forbes: for 50 years has been going on a
• 34:21
  Neil Forbes: very, very long time. And we
• 34:25
  Neil Forbes: have lost 99% of the vultures in
• 34:25
  Neil Forbes: Africa. Okay. Now, there are 11
• 34:33
  Neil Forbes: species of vulture in Africa.
• 34:33
  Neil Forbes: And of those seven are either
• 34:37
  Neil Forbes: critically endangered or
• 34:37
  Neil Forbes: endangered. For them, there are
• 34:41
  Neil Forbes: less than 5000 individuals left
• 34:41
  Neil Forbes: in the wild. That means for each
• 34:45
  Neil Forbes: of those four species, they are
• 34:45
  Neil Forbes: more endangered than a black
• 34:49
  Neil Forbes: rhinoceros. Okay, and two of
• 34:49
  Neil Forbes: them, the white had evolved
• 34:54
  Julian Hoad: Am i right in
• 34:54
  Julian Hoad: thinking the critical number is
• 34:57
  Julian Hoad: 2000 still for bird populations?
• 34:57
  Julian Hoad: In terms of critical,
• 35:01
  Julian Hoad: it will vary from species to
• 35:01
  Julian Hoad: species,
• 35:04
  Mike Brampton: depending on the
• 35:04
  Mike Brampton: number of eggs.
• 35:06
  Neil Forbes: Exactly, exactly.
• 35:06
  Neil Forbes: Yeah, yeah. So so basically two
• 35:11
  Neil Forbes: of those species, hooded
• 35:11
  Neil Forbes: vultures and Whitehead vultures
• 35:15
  Neil Forbes: are predicted to become extinct
• 35:15
  Neil Forbes: in the next five years. Now, if
• 35:20
  Neil Forbes: we so let's just touch on why
• 35:20
  Neil Forbes: population losses is a problem
• 35:25
  Neil Forbes: for vultures. And as Mike
• 35:25
  Neil Forbes: internated there, basically
• 35:29
  Neil Forbes: okay. It varies between species.
• 35:29
  Neil Forbes: But in general term vultures are
• 35:32
  Neil Forbes: not going to mature until
• 35:32
  Neil Forbes: they're four to six years old.
• 35:35
  Neil Forbes: They way, they lay one egg a
• 35:35
  Neil Forbes: year, and they rear one chick
• 35:40
  Neil Forbes: every other year, so so they are
• 35:40
  Neil Forbes: not fecund, which means that if
• 35:48
  Neil Forbes: they are losing numbers, then it
• 35:48
  Neil Forbes: really hits them very, very
• 35:52
  Neil Forbes: hard. And that's the point where
• 35:52
  Neil Forbes: the total number left, it would
• 35:56
  Neil Forbes: be much more critical with a
• 35:56
  Neil Forbes: vulture than it would be with a
• 35:58
  Neil Forbes: thing else. Then let's move on
• 35:58
  Neil Forbes: to think about we know Asia, it
• 36:02
  Neil Forbes: was a it was a drug, it was one
• 36:02
  Neil Forbes: thing, remove it, sorted. Okay,
• 36:05
  Neil Forbes: let's move on to Africa. The
• 36:05
  Neil Forbes: there is published data, but the
• 36:10
  Neil Forbes: actual reality varies from one
• 36:10
  Neil Forbes: area to another. So taking it
• 36:14
  Neil Forbes: bit by bit, the published data
• 36:14
  Neil Forbes: says that 9% of cases in South
• 36:20
  Neil Forbes: Africa are due to electricity,
• 36:20
  Neil Forbes: pylons, and and electricity
• 36:25
  Neil Forbes: cables. Now I had a meeting with
• 36:25
  Neil Forbes: Eskom and they admitted their
• 36:29
  Neil Forbes: own data tells us that 34% of
• 36:29
  Neil Forbes: all vulture losses are due to
• 36:34
  Neil Forbes: electricity power cables. Okay.
• 36:34
  Neil Forbes: 34%. Right. poisoning. And
• 36:42
  Neil Forbes: there's two forms of poison
• 36:42
  Neil Forbes: theres accidental poisoning,
• 36:46
  Neil Forbes: which is you can kind of
• 36:46
  Neil Forbes: sympathise. This is the
• 36:49
  Neil Forbes: subsistence farmer who's trying
• 36:49
  Neil Forbes: to control lion hyena and
• 36:54
  Neil Forbes: jackal. So they don't come and
• 36:54
  Neil Forbes: take his goats and his sheep and
• 36:57
  Neil Forbes: his cattle, okay. And if he
• 36:57
  Neil Forbes: loses stock, his his family are
• 37:02
  Neil Forbes: going to go hungry, and you can
• 37:02
  Neil Forbes: understand that. But basically,
• 37:05
  Neil Forbes: he puts poison out and then one
• 37:05
  Neil Forbes: way or another the vulture gets
• 37:08
  Neil Forbes: hold of it and they die. But if
• 37:08
  Neil Forbes: you look at the data, the
• 37:11
  Neil Forbes: numbers of vultures dying due to
• 37:11
  Neil Forbes: that has remained pretty
• 37:14
  Neil Forbes: constant and relatively low for
• 37:14
  Neil Forbes: a long, long time. The big
• 37:19
  Neil Forbes: problem is malicious poisoning.
• 37:19
  Neil Forbes: Now, malicious poisoning is is
• 37:25
  Neil Forbes: twofold. One, we thought
• 37:25
  Neil Forbes: initially, it was predominantly
• 37:30
  Neil Forbes: elephant poachers. Now the issue
• 37:30
  Neil Forbes: is, if you shoot an elephant, it
• 37:35
  Neil Forbes: then takes you three plus hours
• 37:35
  Neil Forbes: to take the tusks out. by which
• 37:40
  Neil Forbes: time the vultures are circling,
• 37:40
  Neil Forbes: telling the Rangers there's a
• 37:44
  Neil Forbes: carcass. So the poachers
• 37:44
  Neil Forbes: learned, if the vultures in the
• 37:49
  Neil Forbes: area they were more likely to
• 37:49
  Neil Forbes: get caught. So let's poison the
• 37:52
  Neil Forbes: vultures. So they would either
• 37:52
  Neil Forbes: poison a carcass they left
• 37:55
  Neil Forbes: behind, or poison a water
• 37:55
  Neil Forbes: source.
• 37:58
  Mike Brampton: Yeah
• 38:00
  Neil Forbes: To try and kill off
• 38:00
  Neil Forbes: the vultures. And then we found
• 38:03
  Neil Forbes: out there was another way it was
• 38:03
  Neil Forbes: happening. And this was the
• 38:06
  Neil Forbes: rhino poaching. Now
• 38:06
  Neil Forbes: traditionally, Rhino poaching
• 38:08
  Neil Forbes: was people shooting rhinos. But
• 38:08
  Neil Forbes: then they realised that some of
• 38:12
  Neil Forbes: the anti Rhino poaching teams
• 38:12
  Neil Forbes: were using ballistic microphones
• 38:20
  Neil Forbes: to triangulate, to pinpoint
• 38:20
  Neil Forbes: where a ballistic was left off.
• 38:27
  Neil Forbes: And in some parts, it was
• 38:27
  Neil Forbes: incredibly accurate, accurate,
• 38:30
  Neil Forbes: accurate and effective. I
• 38:30
  Neil Forbes: remember talking to some of the
• 38:34
  Neil Forbes: rhino protection team in
• 38:34
  Neil Forbes: Pilanesberg National Park, which
• 38:39
  Neil Forbes: is the fourth largest park in
• 38:39
  Neil Forbes: South Africa. And these in this
• 38:42
  Neil Forbes: particular year, they had had a
• 38:42
  Neil Forbes: this was some while ago, because
• 38:46
  Neil Forbes: sadly, it's got worse since
• 38:46
  Neil Forbes: they'd had eight Rhino poaching
• 38:50
  Neil Forbes: incidents in the year. But in
• 38:50
  Neil Forbes: six of the eight, they arrived
• 38:56
  Neil Forbes: before the poachers had got the
• 38:56
  Neil Forbes: horn off. Now that was really
• 39:00
  Neil Forbes: impressive. Absolutely. So what
• 39:00
  Neil Forbes: the poachers then took to doing
• 39:06
  Neil Forbes: was getting either cabbage or
• 39:06
  Neil Forbes: carrot and adding a poison to
• 39:12
  Neil Forbes: it, feeding it to the rhino, and
• 39:12
  Neil Forbes: then they walk behind the rhino
• 39:16
  Neil Forbes: to the rhino fell over. Then
• 39:16
  Neil Forbes: they take the horn off, so there
• 39:19
  Neil Forbes: was no gun blast. Okay, but
• 39:19
  Neil Forbes: guess what? The Rhino carcass is
• 39:24
  Neil Forbes: poisoned. The vultures come to
• 39:24
  Neil Forbes: eat the rhino carcass, they will
• 39:28
  Neil Forbes: die. Okay, so let's ask
• 39:28
  Neil Forbes: ourselves, how many vultures die
• 39:33
  Neil Forbes: as a result of each poisoning
• 39:33
  Neil Forbes: incidents? Now, if you'd asked
• 39:38
  Neil Forbes: me that question three, four
• 39:38
  Neil Forbes: months ago, I would have said
• 39:40
  Neil Forbes: well, it can be anywhere between
• 39:40
  Neil Forbes: 50 and 600. In April this year,
• 39:47
  Julian Hoad: per carcass?
• 39:48
  Neil Forbes: Per carcass per
• 39:48
  Neil Forbes: carcass, yeah. Right. Do the
• 39:53
  Neil Forbes: sums, do the sums. And the
• 39:53
  Neil Forbes: reality is you don't need very
• 39:58
  Neil Forbes: many poisoning incidents to wipe
• 39:58
  Neil Forbes: out thousands of vultures in the
• 40:03
  Neil Forbes: Yeah, in April this year, we had
• 40:03
  Neil Forbes: the largest so far poisoning
• 40:03
  Neil Forbes: year.
• 40:12
  Neil Forbes: instance in Guinea Bissau, where
• 40:12
  Neil Forbes: more than 2000 hooded vultures
• 40:17
  Neil Forbes: died in one poisoning incidents,
• 40:17
  Neil Forbes: more than 2000 Okay, Now bear in
• 40:23
  Neil Forbes: mind there is somewhere around
• 40:23
  Neil Forbes: three to three and a half
• 40:27
  Neil Forbes: thousand hooded vultures at all.
• 40:30
  Julian Hoad: So over half the
• 40:30
  Julian Hoad: population
• 40:32
  Neil Forbes: Over the half the
• 40:32
  Neil Forbes: population when and and the
• 40:35
  Neil Forbes: reason why hooded vultures are
• 40:35
  Neil Forbes: particularly susceptible to, to
• 40:42
  Neil Forbes: persecution, and it is
• 40:42
  Neil Forbes: anticipated they will become
• 40:45
  Neil Forbes: extinct is because they are one
• 40:45
  Neil Forbes: of the species that is
• 40:48
  Neil Forbes: particularly desirable for black
• 40:48
  Neil Forbes: magic. And 29% of all vultures
• 40:55
  Neil Forbes: that die on killed for their
• 40:55
  Neil Forbes: body parts to be used in black
• 40:59
  Neil Forbes: magic. Now, you say well, why,
• 40:59
  Neil Forbes: and then you ask the question.
• 41:04
  Neil Forbes: So-
• 41:05
  Julian Hoad: It's a rotten
• 41:05
  Julian Hoad: chocolate anyway, isn't it?
• 41:10
  Neil Forbes: There are other
• 41:10
  Neil Forbes: chocolates. Yeah, no. If you ask
• 41:16
  Neil Forbes: if you ask the questions, okay,
• 41:16
  Neil Forbes: if you are a local African
• 41:19
  Neil Forbes: person and you get sick, where
• 41:19
  Neil Forbes: do you go? And the answer is 80%
• 41:24
  Neil Forbes: of people still go to a witch
• 41:24
  Neil Forbes: doctor. Even though it costs
• 41:31
  Neil Forbes: them more than going to a
• 41:31
  Neil Forbes: Western doctor, because their
• 41:35
  Neil Forbes: family have done it for
• 41:35
  Neil Forbes: generation after generation
• 41:37
  Neil Forbes: generation and they have faith
• 41:37
  Neil Forbes: in it. Yeah, placebo effects and
• 41:41
  Neil Forbes: all that. Okay. So the problem
• 41:41
  Neil Forbes: we have in Africa, we have
• 41:46
  Neil Forbes: accidental poisoning. We have
• 41:46
  Neil Forbes: malicious poisening, and we have
• 41:48
  Neil Forbes: power cables. And we have Mati.
• 41:48
  Neil Forbes: Those are the four causes but
• 41:51
  Neil Forbes: you look at them. How many of
• 41:51
  Neil Forbes: those Can we turn around in the
• 41:54
  Neil Forbes: short term? Well, we can battle
• 41:54
  Neil Forbes: with the power cable people. But
• 41:59
  Neil Forbes: you take South Africa as an
• 41:59
  Neil Forbes: example, Eskcom. It's a
• 42:03
  Neil Forbes: government owned company. The
• 42:03
  Neil Forbes: company is completely bankrupt.
• 42:07
  Neil Forbes: They, you know, terrible,
• 42:07
  Neil Forbes: terrible financial problems. The
• 42:11
  Neil Forbes: government is not much better
• 42:11
  Neil Forbes: off and particularly with whats
• 42:15
  Neil Forbes: going on, you know, are they
• 42:15
  Neil Forbes: actually going to spend money on
• 42:21
  Neil Forbes: making the pylons properly safe?
• 42:21
  Neil Forbes: And putting scarers on the
• 42:27
  Neil Forbes: cable? No, they're not. I had a
• 42:27
  Neil Forbes: meeting. I had a meeting with
• 42:31
  Neil Forbes: them a couple of years ago with
• 42:31
  Neil Forbes: with Eskom. So I'd done my
• 42:34
  Neil Forbes: homework before I went in, I
• 42:34
  Neil Forbes: thought to myself, you know
• 42:37
  Neil Forbes: what, in this day of drones,
• 42:37
  Neil Forbes: there has to be a way there has
• 42:40
  Neil Forbes: to be a solution. So I went home
• 42:40
  Neil Forbes: did my homework, I found a
• 42:44
  Neil Forbes: company in Slovakia that had
• 42:44
  Neil Forbes: developed a military grade drone
• 42:49
  Neil Forbes: with a Y shape on the top of it,
• 42:49
  Neil Forbes: that was actually flew up with
• 42:54
  Neil Forbes: the Y clicked onto the cable.
• 42:54
  Neil Forbes: And they could put 250 scarers.
• 43:00
  Neil Forbes: These are like CD ROMs on the
• 43:00
  Neil Forbes: cables so that the bird sees
• 43:03
  Neil Forbes: them and don't hit the cables.
• 43:03
  Neil Forbes: They put 250 on a day. I so I
• 43:07
  Neil Forbes: went to Eskom with the
• 43:07
  Neil Forbes: technology, how to do it, with
• 43:11
  Neil Forbes: the details of qualified drone
• 43:11
  Neil Forbes: pilots to do it for them. And
• 43:16
  Neil Forbes: they said, No, we're not going
• 43:16
  Neil Forbes: to do it. We have our own
• 43:18
  Neil Forbes: research department and we will
• 43:18
  Neil Forbes: follow our own research and
• 43:21
  Neil Forbes: we're not going to do it. But
• 43:21
  Neil Forbes: the reality is, otherwise, we're
• 43:24
  Neil Forbes: not going to do it. Yeah. The
• 43:24
  Neil Forbes: reality is that no one is going
• 43:28
  Neil Forbes: to take Eskom to court, because
• 43:28
  Neil Forbes: it's a government owned company.
• 43:32
  Neil Forbes: And they're going to get into
• 43:32
  Neil Forbes: trouble. And you know that it
• 43:36
  Neil Forbes: won't get it solved. But But
• 43:36
  Neil Forbes: anyway, well, what I'm saying is
• 43:40
  Neil Forbes: the power cable situation should
• 43:40
  Neil Forbes: be solvable. The black magic, we
• 43:45
  Neil Forbes: can educate them. But it's it's
• 43:45
  Neil Forbes: a tough job.
• 43:49
  Julian Hoad: It's gonna be a
• 43:49
  Julian Hoad: generational thing, isn't it?
• 43:52
  Neil Forbes: Well, it may be
• 43:52
  Neil Forbes: four or five generations. We
• 43:55
  Neil Forbes: don't have that time.
• 43:56
  Mike Brampton: That's a multi
• 43:56
  Mike Brampton: generational thing.
• 43:58
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 44:01
  Mike Brampton: We're not gonna
• 44:01
  Mike Brampton: go there.
• 44:03
  Julian Hoad: what number of
• 44:03
  Julian Hoad: generations it takes to change
• 44:05
  Julian Hoad: will depend on the education
• 44:05
  Julian Hoad: within that area.
• 44:10
  Neil Forbes: yeah. The the
• 44:10
  Neil Forbes: poisoning the accidental is not
• 44:14
  Neil Forbes: a big, big problem that the the
• 44:14
  Neil Forbes: malicious poisoning, you know,
• 44:17
  Neil Forbes: it doesn't have to be a big
• 44:17
  Neil Forbes: number of events. You know, it
• 44:20
  Neil Forbes: might only be 15 events in
• 44:20
  Neil Forbes: Africa per year. But each event
• 44:27
  Neil Forbes: is so immensely damaging that
• 44:31
  Julian Hoad: What do you, you
• 44:31
  Julian Hoad: talk about 9000 dead. if its
• 44:36
  Julian Hoad: only 15 events at the worst
• 44:36
  Julian Hoad: can't you
• 44:38
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, I was gonna
• 44:38
  Mike Brampton: cover this this with you Neil,
• 44:42
  Mike Brampton: because I, I've travelled across
• 44:42
  Mike Brampton: Africa. I, basically,
• 44:50
  Mike Brampton: expedition, across Africa and
• 44:50
  Mike Brampton: down. I've spent some time
• 44:56
  Mike Brampton: living in Africa and you're
• 44:56
  Mike Brampton: talking about South Africa,
• 45:01
  Mike Brampton: which on a scale of
• 45:01
  Mike Brampton: infrastructure, ization of
• 45:10
  Mike Brampton: education and awareness is right
• 45:10
  Mike Brampton: up here
• 45:16
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely,
• 45:16
  Neil Forbes: absolutely.
• 45:18
  Mike Brampton: But you look at
• 45:18
  Mike Brampton: places like, and this is not
• 45:21
  Mike Brampton: being depreciative of places
• 45:21
  Mike Brampton: like Zambia, Zimbabwe, Malawi,
• 45:31
  Julian Hoad: Botswana,
• 45:32
  Neil Forbes: Botswana is not too
• 45:32
  Neil Forbes: bad.
• 45:35
  Neil Forbes: But to put it in context with
• 45:35
  Neil Forbes: Kenya, okay. There's all these
• 45:39
  Neil Forbes: political issues, but I, you
• 45:39
  Neil Forbes: know, I've been communicating
• 45:42
  Neil Forbes: with people out there. I've been
• 45:42
  Neil Forbes: talking to the Veterinary
• 45:44
  Neil Forbes: Association. And I said, Well,
• 45:44
  Neil Forbes: you know, it's fine. You can
• 45:47
  Neil Forbes: come and teach Orthopaedic
• 45:47
  Neil Forbes: Surgery. But what you have to
• 45:49
  Neil Forbes: understand is that, our vets, if
• 45:49
  Neil Forbes: you're lucky, they treat cattle.
• 45:52
  Neil Forbes: That's it, period. Yeah, they
• 45:52
  Neil Forbes: don't. They don't treat cats and
• 45:56
  Neil Forbes: dogs. So what hope do you think
• 45:56
  Neil Forbes: you've got that they're going to
• 45:59
  Neil Forbes: anaesthetise and operate on a
• 45:59
  Neil Forbes: bird?
• 46:03
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, absolutely.
• 46:03
  Mike Brampton: And Malawi, they'd got two
• 46:12
  Mike Brampton: travelling vets that would work
• 46:12
  Mike Brampton: prepared to vaccinate and work
• 46:18
  Mike Brampton: with cats and dogs, that that
• 46:18
  Mike Brampton: situation is changed. Yeah, I
• 46:22
  Mike Brampton: was there working on a on a
• 46:22
  Mike Brampton: malaria HIV project. And so this
• 46:28
  Mike Brampton: is human medicine. And there are
• 46:28
  Mike Brampton: a whole series of things that
• 46:32
  Mike Brampton: happen there that open my eyes
• 46:32
  Mike Brampton: to, to the situation and Western
• 46:39
  Mike Brampton: influence. And our attempts to
• 46:39
  Mike Brampton: make Africa like America,
• 46:45
  Neil Forbes: and actually
• 46:45
  Neil Forbes: nowadays, the antagonism of the
• 46:50
  Neil Forbes: locals to that European apps
• 46:50
  Neil Forbes: involvement, which is really
• 46:55
  Neil Forbes: quite significant.
• 46:56
  Mike Brampton: Massive, massive
• 46:56
  Mike Brampton: and can you blame them. You
• 46:56
  Julian Hoad: Is it?
• 46:59
  Julian Hoad: know, I can't blame them. Yeah,
• 46:59
  Julian Hoad: I was, like the Mzungu. And it
• 47:03
  Julian Hoad: took me probably two and a half
• 47:03
  Julian Hoad: months before I was accepted
• 47:08
  Julian Hoad: amongst the village, and the
• 47:08
  Julian Hoad: next village, in the bush and
• 47:14
  Julian Hoad: Arrogant Westerner
• 47:14
  Julian Hoad: coming in and teaching what to
• 47:16
  Julian Hoad: do.
• 47:17
  Mike Brampton: Right. That's it.
• 47:17
  Mike Brampton: That's exactly it, Julian. And,
• 47:22
  Mike Brampton: and it was a real struggle for
• 47:22
  Mike Brampton: me. And I was working, as I say
• 47:25
  Mike Brampton: in in HIV and malaria. Yeah. But
• 47:25
  Mike Brampton: the massive on the population.
• 47:33
  Mike Brampton: Yeah. So to be talking about
• 47:33
  Mike Brampton: their own wildlife, and all of
• 47:38
  Mike Brampton: this, and whilst I was there,
• 47:38
  Mike Brampton: somebody approached me knowing
• 47:43
  Mike Brampton: my background in veterinary
• 47:43
  Mike Brampton: medicine, background medicine,
• 47:50
  Mike Brampton: and they also found that I was a
• 47:50
  Mike Brampton: wild animal capture, certified
• 47:55
  Mike Brampton: wild animal capture, Did you not
• 47:55
  Mike Brampton: of know this, Julian?
• 47:59
  Julian Hoad: Yeah, I knew that
• 48:03
  Mike Brampton: I'm probably the
• 48:03
  Mike Brampton: only certified wildlife capture
• 48:05
  Mike Brampton: operative in the south of
• 48:05
  Mike Brampton: England. But that's another
• 48:08
  Mike Brampton: story. And they wanted, because
• 48:08
  Mike Brampton: Mozambique does not have
• 48:15
  Mike Brampton: anything but hippopatami.
• 48:18
  Neil Forbes: Right.
• 48:18
  Mike Brampton: The reason being,
• 48:18
  Mike Brampton: they've gone through a 25 year
• 48:23
  Mike Brampton: Civil War.
• 48:24
  Neil Forbes: Sure. Yeah.
• 48:25
  Mike Brampton: And when it comes
• 48:25
  Mike Brampton: to what are we going to eat
• 48:29
  Mike Brampton: tomorrow?
• 48:30
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 48:31
  Mike Brampton: You know, that
• 48:31
  Mike Brampton: the wildlife that we we treasure
• 48:35
  Mike Brampton: and we praise and and we we
• 48:35
  Mike Brampton: cherish and becomes a food
• 48:42
  Mike Brampton: source for the family. And one
• 48:42
  Mike Brampton: of, I was approached whilst I
• 48:47
  Mike Brampton: was working in Malawi, would I
• 48:47
  Mike Brampton: be involved in in a wholesale
• 48:53
  Mike Brampton: relocation of hippopotami from
• 48:53
  Mike Brampton: Malawi, to Mozambique, which is
• 48:59
  Mike Brampton: very interesting. Except, I said
• 48:59
  Mike Brampton: to the guys that don't really
• 49:04
  Mike Brampton: like some of the the ideas that
• 49:04
  Mike Brampton: they were putting forwards. And
• 49:07
  Mike Brampton: so I applied to move my capture
• 49:07
  Mike Brampton: licence from the UK, to South
• 49:12
  Mike Brampton: Africa to learn how to do this
• 49:12
  Mike Brampton: properly. with species like
• 49:17
  Mike Brampton: hippopotami. Deer, I have no
• 49:17
  Mike Brampton: problem with. I've been brought
• 49:24
  Mike Brampton: up with deer. I know what deer
• 49:24
  Mike Brampton: are going to do. And how they're
• 49:27
  Mike Brampton: going to react. I know how to
• 49:27
  Mike Brampton: knock a deer down and how to
• 49:29
  Mike Brampton: look after it and ensure its
• 49:29
  Mike Brampton: going to get up again and go on
• 49:33
  Mike Brampton: its way. Hippopotami, umm I
• 49:33
  Mike Brampton: don't know how to do. And it was
• 49:38
  Mike Brampton: interesting that I I applied for
• 49:38
  Mike Brampton: the South African course. So to
• 49:46
  Mike Brampton: look at Boomer capture and
• 49:46
  Mike Brampton: chemical capture and
• 49:50
  Mike Brampton: immobilisation, and I was denied
• 49:50
  Mike Brampton: this. Which is fair enough,
• 49:57
  Mike Brampton: because I'm not a veterinary
• 49:57
  Mike Brampton: surgeon.
• 49:59
  Neil Forbes: But It's all about
• 49:59
  Neil Forbes: Rhino poaching at the moment. I
• 50:01
  Neil Forbes: mean, the controls over the
• 50:01
  Neil Forbes: availability of the drugs used
• 50:05
  Neil Forbes: for Game Capture is very, very
• 50:05
  Neil Forbes: strict for that reason,
• 50:09
  Mike Brampton: for that reason,
• 50:09
  Mike Brampton: and because of a number of
• 50:12
  Mike Brampton: poachers are using knockdown
• 50:12
  Mike Brampton: drugs. And it's interesting,
• 50:17
  Mike Brampton: you're talking there about
• 50:17
  Mike Brampton: diclofenac because obviously, in
• 50:22
  Mike Brampton: deer population in the UK, we
• 50:22
  Mike Brampton: have to be very careful as to
• 50:26
  Mike Brampton: which drugs we use. And if we
• 50:26
  Mike Brampton: use certain drugs, that animal
• 50:31
  Mike Brampton: has to be tagged.So that it does
• 50:31
  Mike Brampton: enter into the human food chain.
• 50:37
  Mike Brampton: That That said, I do know a
• 50:37
  Mike Brampton: number of people who have eaten
• 50:42
  Mike Brampton: carcusses that have been knocked
• 50:42
  Mike Brampton: down with
• 50:49
  Neil Forbes: magic rum, magic
• 50:49
  Neil Forbes: mushrooms all over again.
• 50:52
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, we're not
• 50:52
  Mike Brampton: gonna get into that, don't start
• 50:54
  Mike Brampton: Julian on that, seriously. Lets
• 50:54
  Mike Brampton: stay on the topic here,
• 50:58
  Neil Forbes: okay.
• 50:59
  Mike Brampton: Um, but yeah, I
• 50:59
  Mike Brampton: mean,
• 51:02
  Julian Hoad: I would, I would
• 51:02
  Julian Hoad: love to have a chat later and
• 51:05
  Julian Hoad: see if there's any way that I
• 51:05
  Julian Hoad: could get involved from a
• 51:08
  Julian Hoad: veterinay point of view, for our
• 51:08
  Julian Hoad: listeners
• 51:11
  Mike Brampton: before you before
• 51:11
  Mike Brampton: you do that, Julian, before you
• 51:13
  Mike Brampton: do that. I think, what is it,
• 51:13
  Mike Brampton: Neil, that we can do? That our
• 51:20
  Mike Brampton: listeners can do to help
• 51:24
  Neil Forbes: I think there's
• 51:24
  Neil Forbes: lots of things that we can be
• 51:28
  Neil Forbes: doing. I think the difficulty is
• 51:28
  Neil Forbes: that politically, a lot of it is
• 51:31
  Neil Forbes: not acceptable. If you, and my
• 51:31
  Neil Forbes: view is you know, right at the
• 51:38
  Neil Forbes: moment, if we look at the
• 51:38
  Neil Forbes: African vultures, it seems crazy
• 51:43
  Neil Forbes: that we have, we only have
• 51:43
  Neil Forbes: significant populations of
• 51:48
  Neil Forbes: captive vultures in Africa. And
• 51:48
  Neil Forbes: Africa is a country with endemic
• 51:52
  Neil Forbes: avian influenza, Newcastle
• 51:52
  Neil Forbes: disease, West Nile fever, etc.
• 52:00
  Neil Forbes: So I mean, one thing would make
• 52:00
  Neil Forbes: a lot of sense is to actually
• 52:04
  Neil Forbes: shift breeding collections of
• 52:04
  Neil Forbes: unreleasable wild birds, to
• 52:11
  Neil Forbes: other parts of the world,
• 52:11
  Neil Forbes: America, Europe, wherever.
• 52:16
  Neil Forbes: Because we need to have a safe
• 52:16
  Neil Forbes: population. So that if we, if,
• 52:22
  Neil Forbes: if extinction or some of these
• 52:22
  Neil Forbes: species happens, which, you
• 52:24
  Neil Forbes: know, I hate to say whatever we
• 52:24
  Neil Forbes: do seems incredibly likely. If
• 52:29
  Neil Forbes: we have a reasonable,
• 52:29
  Neil Forbes: successfully breeding population
• 52:34
  Neil Forbes: elsewhere in the world, firstly,
• 52:34
  Neil Forbes: they can be used for education,
• 52:38
  Neil Forbes: for publicity, for conservation,
• 52:38
  Neil Forbes: but they can be bred and
• 52:43
  Neil Forbes: population can be increased such
• 52:43
  Neil Forbes: that, if we reach a time, let's
• 52:47
  Neil Forbes: say, in 30-40 years in Africa,
• 52:47
  Neil Forbes: where species of vultures have
• 52:50
  Neil Forbes: disappeared, but the education
• 52:50
  Neil Forbes: and publicity has got to a
• 52:54
  Neil Forbes: point, probably because the
• 52:54
  Neil Forbes: vultures have disappeared, that
• 52:57
  Neil Forbes: people then actually appreciate
• 52:57
  Neil Forbes: the value. We then have
• 53:01
  Neil Forbes: populations go back again. So So
• 53:01
  Neil Forbes: really, I think it's about
• 53:05
  Neil Forbes: publicity. It's about education.
• 53:05
  Neil Forbes: It's making people aware, you
• 53:09
  Neil Forbes: know, those four species of
• 53:09
  Neil Forbes: vulture I talked to you about
• 53:12
  Neil Forbes: are rarer than black rhinoceros.
• 53:12
  Neil Forbes: One of the positive things I
• 53:15
  Neil Forbes: should say, there are some
• 53:15
  Neil Forbes: positives, one of the positive
• 53:17
  Neil Forbes: things in South Africa is the
• 53:17
  Neil Forbes: setting up of a network of
• 53:21
  Neil Forbes: vulture restaurants. So places
• 53:21
  Neil Forbes: where vultures are fed safe
• 53:26
  Neil Forbes: food.
• 53:27
  Julian Hoad: I'm so glad its
• 53:27
  Julian Hoad: that way round, I was goign to
• 53:29
  Julian Hoad: say can I mention Vulture
• 53:29
  Julian Hoad: Alliance as well, Neil?
• 53:38
  Neil Forbes: Yeah. The Vulture
• 53:38
  Neil Forbes: Alliance is the organisation
• 53:41
  Neil Forbes: that we set up under the
• 53:41
  Neil Forbes: charitable umbrella of the
• 53:44
  Neil Forbes: International Centre of birds of
• 53:44
  Neil Forbes: prey, which is the organisation
• 53:48
  Neil Forbes: for for those of us who can go
• 53:48
  Neil Forbes: and teach people in Africa. So
• 53:53
  Neil Forbes: you know, it's voluntary
• 53:53
  Neil Forbes: teaching, but basically, what
• 53:56
  Neil Forbes: we're looking for is people to
• 53:56
  Neil Forbes: fund the the materials we're use
• 54:00
  Neil Forbes: in the teaching, so the pins and
• 54:00
  Neil Forbes: that sort of stuff. Fortunately,
• 54:05
  Neil Forbes: the equipment we use gets the
• 54:05
  Neil Forbes: loaned to us, very generously by
• 54:09
  Neil Forbes: Veterinary Instumentation. But
• 54:09
  Neil Forbes: you know, it does cost something
• 54:13
  Neil Forbes: in terms of air flights, we
• 54:13
  Neil Forbes: normally get driven around and
• 54:17
  Neil Forbes: so on when we're there. So
• 54:17
  Neil Forbes: that's not a problem. But there
• 54:19
  Neil Forbes: are some costs so people can
• 54:19
  Neil Forbes: make donations to the
• 54:24
  Neil Forbes: International Centre For Birds
• 54:24
  Neil Forbes: Of Prey. And if you put in
• 54:26
  Neil Forbes: brackets Vulture Alliance to
• 54:26
  Neil Forbes: make sure it does go to the
• 54:29
  Neil Forbes: vulture work, Vulpro itself, I
• 54:29
  Neil Forbes: started saying, because I've
• 54:32
  Neil Forbes: been working with them for some
• 54:32
  Neil Forbes: years. And just to explain what
• 54:36
  Neil Forbes: we've done with the
• 54:36
  Neil Forbes: rehabilitation, historically,
• 54:38
  Neil Forbes: bird's come in rehabbers do the
• 54:38
  Neil Forbes: best they can. So we instituted
• 54:44
  Neil Forbes: a few new things, they get
• 54:44
  Neil Forbes: tested for parasites, they have
• 54:48
  Neil Forbes: a PCV and a white blood cell
• 54:48
  Neil Forbes: check. So if they have an
• 54:52
  Neil Forbes: infection, they know about it if
• 54:52
  Neil Forbes: they are anaemic they know about
• 54:55
  Neil Forbes: it. We we read like the
• 54:55
  Neil Forbes: published data is that two
• 54:59
  Neil Forbes: different papers have come out
• 54:59
  Neil Forbes: stating the level of lead
• 55:03
  Neil Forbes: poisoning or the incidence of
• 55:03
  Neil Forbes: lead poisoning in wild vultures
• 55:06
  Neil Forbes: is 12 to 32%. Okay, so a
• 55:06
  Neil Forbes: percentage of birds that come
• 55:11
  Neil Forbes: into care have got lead
• 55:11
  Neil Forbes: poisining, subclinical or
• 55:13
  Neil Forbes: clinical lead poisening.
• 55:15
  Mike Brampton: Woah where are
• 55:15
  Mike Brampton: they getting this lead from?
• 55:19
  Neil Forbes: Because the
• 55:19
  Neil Forbes: carcasses that have been shot
• 55:23
  Mike Brampton: okay.
• 55:24
  Julian Hoad: Really?
• 55:25
  Neil Forbes: Yeah. So, so lead
• 55:25
  Neil Forbes: poisoning is an issue. And then
• 55:29
  Neil Forbes: also, we we got an epoch machine
• 55:29
  Neil Forbes: down there kindly supported by
• 55:36
  Neil Forbes: quantum laboratories. And
• 55:36
  Neil Forbes: obviously, we bought the
• 55:39
  Neil Forbes: reagents and we were testing
• 55:39
  Neil Forbes: them for ionised calcium.
• 55:43
  Neil Forbes: Because if you think about it,
• 55:43
  Neil Forbes: farmers poison the lion, the
• 55:51
  Neil Forbes: jackal, the hyena. Every bird of
• 55:51
  Neil Forbes: prey needs a whole carcass diet,
• 55:57
  Neil Forbes: bone and meat. How does a
• 55:57
  Neil Forbes: vulture get bone? Because the
• 56:02
  Neil Forbes: bones of the carcasses that the
• 56:02
  Neil Forbes: vulture eats are very big.
• 56:05
  Neil Forbes: They're way too big for a
• 56:05
  Neil Forbes: vulture to eat. Yeah. So the way
• 56:08
  Neil Forbes: they get bone is because the
• 56:08
  Neil Forbes: lion, the jackall, the hyena
• 56:11
  Neil Forbes: have come along and chewed the
• 56:11
  Neil Forbes: bones up. And then the vultures
• 56:15
  Neil Forbes: eat the chips. Okay, so the
• 56:15
  Neil Forbes: farmers have killed off the
• 56:19
  Neil Forbes: lion, the jackal, the hyena.
• 56:19
  Neil Forbes: There aren't any bone chips. So
• 56:24
  Neil Forbes: a significant percentage of
• 56:24
  Neil Forbes: young vultures leaving the nest,
• 56:29
  Neil Forbes: leaving the cliff edge, fail to
• 56:29
  Neil Forbes: fly on that first flight. And I,
• 56:37
  Neil Forbes: when we were there last time,
• 56:37
  Neil Forbes: time before we when we
• 56:41
  Neil Forbes: introduced the epoch testing,
• 56:41
  Neil Forbes: you know, a nice calcium level
• 56:44
  Neil Forbes: should be around one to 1.1. And
• 56:44
  Neil Forbes: we had the first vulture that
• 56:49
  Neil Forbes: came in, a young vultures off
• 56:49
  Neil Forbes: its legs, callapsed. level of
• 56:53
  Neil Forbes: ionized calcium less than 0.25,
• 56:53
  Neil Forbes: basically unsustainable with
• 56:58
  Neil Forbes: life. You know what, just having
• 56:58
  Neil Forbes: that testing kit where you can,
• 57:02
  Neil Forbes: every bird that comes in can be
• 57:02
  Neil Forbes: tested. So so all of a sudden,
• 57:06
  Neil Forbes: we were testing for infection.
• 57:06
  Neil Forbes: We were testing for anaemia, we
• 57:09
  Neil Forbes: were testing for lead. We were
• 57:09
  Neil Forbes: and we were testing for calcium.
• 57:14
  Neil Forbes: Yeah. And all of a sudden, we
• 57:14
  Neil Forbes: can start doing scientific
• 57:18
  Neil Forbes: better quality rehabilitation.
• 57:18
  Neil Forbes: And then at the same time,
• 57:22
  Neil Forbes: because we trained a whole lot
• 57:22
  Neil Forbes: of people to do orthopaedic
• 57:24
  Neil Forbes: surgery, the Vulpro had a number
• 57:24
  Neil Forbes: of different places they could
• 57:28
  Neil Forbes: go to to get the surgical jobs
• 57:28
  Neil Forbes: done. Yeah. Vulpro since then
• 57:32
  Neil Forbes: have now developed their own
• 57:32
  Neil Forbes: veterinary facility. But they
• 57:36
  Neil Forbes: have no equipment in it, their
• 57:36
  Neil Forbes: next task is to raise money to
• 57:40
  Neil Forbes: equip it, and then they will get
• 57:40
  Neil Forbes: volunteers going on a rotational
• 57:45
  Neil Forbes: basis to do the veterinary work.
• 57:48
  Julian Hoad: So that's how our
• 57:48
  Julian Hoad: viewers can help?
• 57:49
  Mike Brampton: This is the ICBP
• 57:52
  Neil Forbes: The International
• 57:52
  Neil Forbes: Centre of Birds of Prey, but
• 57:55
  Neil Forbes: they they are the governing body
• 57:55
  Neil Forbes: under which Vulture Alliance is
• 57:59
  Neil Forbes: formed. Donate, if people donate
• 57:59
  Neil Forbes: to this, I've told icbp that
• 58:05
  Neil Forbes: anyone who donates at this time
• 58:05
  Neil Forbes: that money is for Vulture
• 58:09
  Neil Forbes: Alliance
• 58:10
  Julian Hoad: Because actually
• 58:10
  Julian Hoad: that's very important, we can
• 58:12
  Julian Hoad: all, we can all look through the
• 58:12
  Julian Hoad: internet and find charities to
• 58:17
  Julian Hoad: donate to but it's making sure
• 58:17
  Julian Hoad: the money goes to the right
• 58:20
  Julian Hoad: place. So yeah, ICBP, the
• 58:20
  Julian Hoad: International Centre
• 58:25
  Neil Forbes: for birds of prey.
• 58:28
  Julian Hoad: And they got the
• 58:28
  Julian Hoad: money and they'll send it
• 58:30
  Julian Hoad: through to
• 58:30
  Neil Forbes: but they basically
• 58:30
  Neil Forbes: Well, they wont send it to
• 58:33
  Neil Forbes: Vulpro, they that will be for
• 58:33
  Neil Forbes: Vulture Alliance, and that will
• 58:36
  Neil Forbes: fund flights for myself, or
• 58:36
  Neil Forbes: myself and Jemima ,my wife Karen
• 58:39
  Mike Brampton: And to people who
• 58:39
  Mike Brampton: can't see this at this point of
• 58:42
  Mike Brampton: to go to Kenya or wherever else
• 58:42
  Mike Brampton: we have to go to. If you want to
• 58:45
  Mike Brampton: give money to Volpro that would
• 58:45
  Mike Brampton: also, that's an alternative. Now
• 58:48
  Mike Brampton: you can't do that throug
• 58:48
  Mike Brampton: Facebook because they're not
• 58:51
  Mike Brampton: charity. They're not for profi
• 58:51
  Mike Brampton: organisation, which basicall
• 58:55
  Mike Brampton: means the same in South Africa
• 58:55
  Mike Brampton: terms, but it means Faceboo
• 58:58
  Mike Brampton: won't list them. So Vulpro, b
• 58:58
  Mike Brampton: t you if you contact VulPro,
• 59:02
  Mike Brampton: they've got a website, cont
• 59:02
  Mike Brampton: ct them and just ask them for
• 59:05
  Mike Brampton: ank details. You can make a dona
• 59:05
  Mike Brampton: ion to them. So they are desp
• 59:08
  Mike Brampton: rate for equipment for thei
• 59:08
  Mike Brampton: veterinary hospital. And I kno
• 59:11
  Mike Brampton: they have a bad press. Peopl
• 59:11
  Mike Brampton: think they're ugly, they'
• 59:15
  Mike Brampton: e dirty, they eat rotten stuff.
• 59:15
  Mike Brampton: But you know they serve a really
• 59:18
  Mike Brampton: really important function in
• 59:18
  Mike Brampton: he ecosystem. Let me give you
• 59:22
  Mike Brampton: a figure. When we had that cr
• 59:22
  Mike Brampton: sh of vultures in Asia.
• 59:27
  Mike Brampton: 9.9% of vultures. What happe
• 59:27
  Mike Brampton: ed? What happened? T
• 59:30
  Mike Brampton: e feral dogs increased dramat
• 59:30
  Mike Brampton: cally. feral dogs very commonl
• 59:35
  Mike Brampton: infected with rabies. There was
• 59:35
  Mike Brampton: an increase of 600,000 h
• 59:41
  Mike Brampton: man deaths from rabies predomina
• 59:41
  Mike Brampton: ely children because the vult
• 59:45
  Mike Brampton: res had died, because the
• 59:45
  Mike Brampton: dogs went up and they got rab
• 59:48
  Mike Brampton: es, and they spread it to the ch
• 59:48
  Mike Brampton: ldren
• 59:53
  Mike Brampton: time, we're showing, what we're
• 59:53
  Mike Brampton: doing is, we're showing a
• 59:56
  Mike Brampton: fantastic picture of a vulture
• 1:00:00
  Neil Forbes: That's a hooded
• 1:00:00
  Neil Forbes: vulture. That's one of the ones
• 1:00:03
  Neil Forbes: that that sadly probably won't
• 1:00:03
  Neil Forbes: be with us in five years time.
• 1:00:07
  Julian Hoad: I'm reading at the
• 1:00:07
  Julian Hoad: moment I'm reading Sapiens by
• 1:00:10
  Julian Hoad: Yuval Noah Harari,. Which is,
• 1:00:10
  Julian Hoad: its a history of the the human,
• 1:00:17
  Julian Hoad: human race.
• 1:00:18
  Neil Forbes: Disaster disaster.
• 1:00:19
  Julian Hoad: Yeah, it is a
• 1:00:19
  Julian Hoad: disaster complete disaster. We
• 1:00:23
  Julian Hoad: are responsible for every single
• 1:00:23
  Julian Hoad: mass extinction. Obviously, we
• 1:00:32
  Julian Hoad: can't be blamed for the
• 1:00:32
  Julian Hoad: dinosaurs. We, if, if we've been
• 1:00:35
  Julian Hoad: around, then we would have been.
• 1:00:35
  Julian Hoad: Every every single mass
• 1:00:42
  Julian Hoad: extinction in the previous
• 1:00:42
  Julian Hoad: 30,000 years have been directly
• 1:00:48
  Julian Hoad: attributable to humans.
• 1:00:50
  Mike Brampton: And now we're
• 1:00:50
  Mike Brampton: facing our own.
• 1:00:52
  Julian Hoad: And now we're
• 1:00:52
  Julian Hoad: facing, well I don't know if we
• 1:00:54
  Julian Hoad: are. But we're going to take a
• 1:00:54
  Julian Hoad: few animals with us when we go.
• 1:00:57
  Neil Forbes: What about the
• 1:00:57
  Neil Forbes: pangolin you know, the most
• 1:01:00
  Neil Forbes: trafficked species in the world
• 1:01:00
  Neil Forbes: pangolins. And
• 1:01:05
  Julian Hoad: I love Pangolins,
• 1:01:05
  Julian Hoad: amazingly,
• 1:01:08
  Neil Forbes: they are such cute
• 1:01:08
  Neil Forbes: little animals, them running
• 1:01:11
  Neil Forbes: along on their back legs and
• 1:01:11
  Neil Forbes: great big long tongue coming
• 1:01:13
  Neil Forbes: out. And and you know,
• 1:01:13
  Neil Forbes: absolutely wicked. And I saw
• 1:01:18
  Neil Forbes: data some years ago about the
• 1:01:18
  Neil Forbes: the numbers of tonnes and you're
• 1:01:22
  Neil Forbes: talking about 100 120 160 tonnes
• 1:01:22
  Neil Forbes: of pangalan meat seized in Hong
• 1:01:29
  Neil Forbes: Kong, on its way to China. And
• 1:01:29
  Neil Forbes: if you think that each pangolin
• 1:01:33
  Neil Forbes: weighs between three and six
• 1:01:33
  Neil Forbes: kilos, thats one hell of a lot
• 1:01:37
  Neil Forbes: of pangolins
• 1:01:37
  Julian Hoad: Its a huge number,
• 1:01:37
  Julian Hoad: you think? How could there be
• 1:01:40
  Julian Hoad: that number already in the
• 1:01:40
  Julian Hoad: world?
• 1:01:43
  Neil Forbes: Well, and the
• 1:01:43
  Neil Forbes: terrible thing
• 1:01:45
  Mike Brampton: that's the ones
• 1:01:45
  Mike Brampton: that was seized.
• 1:01:48
  Neil Forbes: Yeah. And when
• 1:01:48
  Neil Forbes: they, when they started seizing
• 1:01:50
  Neil Forbes: them, what they were getting
• 1:01:50
  Neil Forbes: with Asian pangolins. Guess
• 1:01:53
  Neil Forbes: what, there aren't any now. Now
• 1:01:53
  Neil Forbes: the ones they are seizing are
• 1:01:56
  Neil Forbes: the African pangolins, guess
• 1:01:56
  Neil Forbes: what? Give it another three or
• 1:01:59
  Neil Forbes: four years. There won't be any
• 1:01:59
  Neil Forbes: left.
• 1:02:01
  Julian Hoad: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:02:02
  Neil Forbes: And it's all
• 1:02:02
  Neil Forbes: because certain people in
• 1:02:04
  Neil Forbes: certain countries want to eat
• 1:02:04
  Neil Forbes: them. Eating the scales is bad.
• 1:02:09
  Neil Forbes: And then the real delicacy is
• 1:02:09
  Neil Forbes: having a pangolin foetus in your
• 1:02:13
  Neil Forbes: soup. How sick is that?
• 1:02:16
  Julian Hoad: It's so sick. And
• 1:02:16
  Julian Hoad: also the belief that actually
• 1:02:18
  Julian Hoad: the scales are going to help in
• 1:02:18
  Julian Hoad: some medical way? Yeah.
• 1:02:21
  Mike Brampton: Yeah. Very sad.
• 1:02:21
  Mike Brampton: Very sad. Very, very sad. And I
• 1:02:25
  Mike Brampton: don't quite know how we move
• 1:02:25
  Mike Brampton: from that, which is very
• 1:02:31
  Mike Brampton: important. And an appropriate
• 1:02:31
  Mike Brampton: comment, and quite how we move
• 1:02:39
  Mike Brampton: from that to our well, well
• 1:02:39
  Mike Brampton: earned CPD certificate, and
• 1:02:49
  Mike Brampton: potentially the end of our show.
• 1:02:52
  Julian Hoad: Well, I think I
• 1:02:52
  Julian Hoad: think we must move, we got this
• 1:02:55
  Julian Hoad: third aspect, which is
• 1:02:55
  Julian Hoad: antimicrobial resistance. But I
• 1:02:58
  Julian Hoad: think, to be perfectly honest,
• 1:02:58
  Julian Hoad: I'm not inclined to follow that
• 1:03:01
  Julian Hoad: tonight. Because quite frankly,
• 1:03:01
  Julian Hoad: we don't deserve as a human race
• 1:03:06
  Julian Hoad: to get ourselves better with
• 1:03:06
  Julian Hoad: with antimicrobials tonight.
• 1:03:10
  Julian Hoad: Lets leave that, if we could
• 1:03:10
  Julian Hoad: Neil, for another another night.
• 1:03:14
  Julian Hoad: Would you come back?
• 1:03:15
  Neil Forbes: You're gonna do me
• 1:03:15
  Neil Forbes: again. Again, Yes, certainly.
• 1:03:20
  Neil Forbes: No, I'm very happy. And that is
• 1:03:20
  Neil Forbes: very much one of my other hobby
• 1:03:23
  Neil Forbes: horses is infection. Well, not
• 1:03:23
  Neil Forbes: only antimicrobial resistance,
• 1:03:26
  Neil Forbes: because that's only one one, one
• 1:03:26
  Neil Forbes: spoke to the wheel. It's
• 1:03:31
  Neil Forbes: infection control and
• 1:03:31
  Neil Forbes: biosecurity in veterinary
• 1:03:33
  Neil Forbes: practice is that the biggest
• 1:03:33
  Neil Forbes: issue and obviously,
• 1:03:35
  Neil Forbes: antimicrobial resistance is part
• 1:03:35
  Neil Forbes: of that. So
• 1:03:40
  Julian Hoad: in a way
• 1:03:40
  Julian Hoad: antimicrobial resistance is, is
• 1:03:43
  Julian Hoad: bolting the gate after the
• 1:03:43
  Julian Hoad: horses
• 1:03:46
  Neil Forbes: Absolutely. And the
• 1:03:46
  Neil Forbes: sad reality is ever since
• 1:03:49
  Neil Forbes: Florence Nightingale. Well,
• 1:03:49
  Neil Forbes: Alexander Fleming, really, we
• 1:03:54
  Neil Forbes: have relied on antibiotics to
• 1:03:54
  Neil Forbes: allow us to get away with
• 1:04:00
  Neil Forbes: sloppy, sloppy hygiene and
• 1:04:00
  Neil Forbes: infection control.
• 1:04:04
  Mike Brampton: Absolutely.
• 1:04:05
  Neil Forbes: And it's absolutely
• 1:04:05
  Neil Forbes: fundamentally wicked. And as a
• 1:04:10
  Neil Forbes: society, we we need to do better
• 1:04:10
  Neil Forbes: and as a profession. We need to
• 1:04:15
  Neil Forbes: do an awful lot better
• 1:04:17
  Mike Brampton: On that note
• 1:04:18
  Julian Hoad: you mentioned you
• 1:04:18
  Julian Hoad: mentioned CPD.
• 1:04:20
  Mike Brampton: Yeah. And wow,
• 1:04:20
  Mike Brampton: Neil. Thank you so, so much.
• 1:04:29
  Mike Brampton: Julian. Have you got a CPD
• 1:04:29
  Mike Brampton: certificate for tonight?
• 1:04:31
  Julian Hoad: I just happen to
• 1:04:31
  Julian Hoad: have one here.
• 1:04:33
  Neil Forbes: Oh, brilliant. How
• 1:04:33
  Neil Forbes: about that. Aww gentle viewer
• 1:04:41
  Neil Forbes: and a vulture. I love it.
• 1:04:41
  Neil Forbes: Fantastic.
• 1:04:47
  Julian Hoad: And it says if
• 1:04:47
  Julian Hoad: you've made it this far, gentle
• 1:04:52
  Julian Hoad: viewer, then you probably know
• 1:04:52
  Julian Hoad: more about something than he did
• 1:04:56
  Julian Hoad: a while ago. In all innocence, I
• 1:04:56
  Julian Hoad: wrote this earlier in all
• 1:05:03
  Julian Hoad: innocence thinking, we're gonna
• 1:05:03
  Julian Hoad: have a great chat because Neil
• 1:05:06
  Julian Hoad: Forbes is a fantastic speaker.
• 1:05:06
  Julian Hoad: incredibly well respected,
• 1:05:11
  Julian Hoad: expert in various fields, many,
• 1:05:11
  Julian Hoad: many fields. Tonight, I, we use
• 1:05:17
  Julian Hoad: the word humbled don't we far
• 1:05:17
  Julian Hoad: too often. I've been humbled,
• 1:05:20
  Julian Hoad: but I've been I've been really
• 1:05:20
  Julian Hoad: humbled Neil by what you've had
• 1:05:24
  Julian Hoad: to say. And my goodness me that
• 1:05:24
  Julian Hoad: there's gonna be a lot for me to
• 1:05:29
  Julian Hoad: think about tonight with
• 1:05:29
  Julian Hoad: vultures and conservacy in
• 1:05:33
  Julian Hoad: general.
• 1:05:34
  Mike Brampton: No, question.
• 1:05:35
  Julian Hoad: Thank you so much.
• 1:05:35
  Julian Hoad: We haven't Yes.
• 1:05:40
  Mike Brampton: Yeah, timeout
• 1:05:40
  Mike Brampton: timeout, because in order for
• 1:05:44
  Mike Brampton: this to be verified by the rcvs,
• 1:05:44
  Mike Brampton: various governing bodies, it's
• 1:05:50
  Mike Brampton: overall one thing doing the CPD
• 1:05:50
  Mike Brampton: certificate receiving the
• 1:05:56
  Mike Brampton: certificate. We do of course,
• 1:05:56
  Mike Brampton: after reflects on this.
• 1:06:00
  Julian Hoad: We do
• 1:06:02
  Mike Brampton: And so you know,
• 1:06:02
  Mike Brampton: Neil. Absolutely amazing. Thank
• 1:06:05
  Mike Brampton: you very much indeed, you've
• 1:06:05
  Mike Brampton: educated, I think, Well,
• 1:06:08
  Mike Brampton: certainly me
• 1:06:09
  Julian Hoad: and me immensely,
• 1:06:09
  Julian Hoad: and
• 1:06:12
  Mike Brampton: I'm sure most of
• 1:06:12
  Mike Brampton: our viewers and but we do, of
• 1:06:15
  Mike Brampton: course have to pause for
• 1:06:15
  Mike Brampton: reflection. So let's take a
• 1:06:20
  Mike Brampton: moment just to pause and reflect
• 1:06:20
  Mike Brampton: on our CPD this evening.
• 1:06:33
  Mike Brampton: Neil your not taking this
• 1:06:33
  Mike Brampton: seriously.
• 1:06:35
  Julian Hoad: Got to reflect.
• 1:06:35
  Julian Hoad: He's drinking cider.
• 1:06:36
  Mike Brampton: Did you not rea
• 1:06:36
  Mike Brampton: the email. Julian. This t
• 1:06:40
  Mike Brampton: me of the evening. Ordinarily,
• 1:06:40
  Mike Brampton: you would tell us a joke.
• 1:06:43
  Julian Hoad: Do you know I've
• 1:06:43
  Julian Hoad: got one, I've got one I thought
• 1:06:53
  Julian Hoad: I thought Neil might like. I say
• 1:06:53
  Julian Hoad: that he's not gonna like it
• 1:06:56
  Julian Hoad: because it's crap. Isn't it as
• 1:06:56
  Julian Hoad: most of my jokes are but
• 1:06:59
  Mike Brampton: Most of his jokes
• 1:06:59
  Mike Brampton: are Neil
• 1:07:01
  Julian Hoad: Not most, not most,
• 1:07:01
  Julian Hoad: all. A fewyears ago, some
• 1:07:06
  Julian Hoad: friends of mine got together and
• 1:07:06
  Julian Hoad: they held a 21st birthday party
• 1:07:10
  Julian Hoad: and invited me to it, 21st
• 1:07:10
  Julian Hoad: birthday party. I said Whose
• 1:07:14
  Julian Hoad: birthday is it? it's the 21st
• 1:07:14
  Julian Hoad: anniversary of most of your
• 1:07:18
  Julian Hoad: jokes.
• 1:07:24
  Neil Forbes: And you said the
• 1:07:24
  Neil Forbes: old ones of the best ones
• 1:07:28
  Julian Hoad: and they didn't
• 1:07:28
  Julian Hoad: agree, this is, this is about
• 1:07:33
  Julian Hoad: it's about a cat burglar. Not
• 1:07:33
  Julian Hoad: someone who steals cats. A cat
• 1:07:37
  Julian Hoad: burglar. This wealthy mansion at
• 1:07:37
  Julian Hoad: night, climbed in through a high
• 1:07:47
  Julian Hoad: window and dropped down into the
• 1:07:47
  Julian Hoad: room they thought was the most
• 1:07:51
  Julian Hoad: likely to hold all the all the
• 1:07:51
  Julian Hoad: jewels, so he was shining a
• 1:07:57
  Julian Hoad: torch around the place. And the
• 1:07:57
  Julian Hoad: torch lit up this wonderful case
• 1:08:04
  Julian Hoad: full of jewels, fantastic rich
• 1:08:04
  Julian Hoad: tonight and diamonds and
• 1:08:10
  Julian Hoad: business. Emerald gold, look at
• 1:08:10
  Julian Hoad: this I'm going to be
• 1:08:14
  Julian Hoad: fantastically wealthy. So he
• 1:08:14
  Julian Hoad: started unpicking the lock to
• 1:08:18
  Julian Hoad: this jewel cabinet and suddenly
• 1:08:18
  Julian Hoad: heard 'Jesus is watching you.'
• 1:08:26
  Julian Hoad: Turned around, nothing was
• 1:08:26
  Julian Hoad: there, so he carried on opening
• 1:08:32
  Julian Hoad: this jewel case. 'Jesus is
• 1:08:32
  Julian Hoad: watching' His torch caught this
• 1:08:40
  Julian Hoad: parrot sitting on a perch. And
• 1:08:40
  Julian Hoad: he said 'Was it you that said
• 1:08:45
  Julian Hoad: that?' 'Jesus is watching you'
• 1:08:45
  Julian Hoad: 'It was you, you're were talking
• 1:08:51
  Julian Hoad: parrot?' 'Oh yes' 'Gosh, your
• 1:08:51
  Julian Hoad: clever aren't you' 'Jesus is
• 1:08:55
  Julian Hoad: watching you' 'What's your
• 1:08:55
  Julian Hoad: name?' 'Archimedes.'
• 1:09:00
  Julian Hoad: 'Archimedes.' He says 'That's a
• 1:09:00
  Julian Hoad: strange name for a parrot'
• 1:09:02
  Julian Hoad: 'Yeah. And Jesus is a strange
• 1:09:02
  Julian Hoad: name for Rottweiler but he's
• 1:09:05
  Julian Hoad: still fucking watching you,
• 1:09:05
  Julian Hoad: isn't he?'
• 1:09:09
  Neil Forbes: Lovely
• 1:09:16
  Mike Brampton: On that note, can
• 1:09:16
  Mike Brampton: I say, if you've liked what
• 1:09:20
  Mike Brampton: you've seen tonight, and thank
• 1:09:20
  Mike Brampton: you so much, Neil Forbes
• 1:09:24
  Neil Forbes: pleasure, pleasure.
• 1:09:25
  Neil Forbes: For bringing us into your life
• 1:09:25
  Neil Forbes: in that regard. So if you've
• 1:09:29
  Neil Forbes: liked what you've seen, tick,
• 1:09:29
  Neil Forbes: like, share, like it on
• 1:09:33
  Neil Forbes: Facebook. Watch it on Spotify or
• 1:09:33
  Neil Forbes: all of the other media platforms
• 1:09:39
  Neil Forbes: that we're on. Listen to us.
• 1:09:39
  Neil Forbes: Tick like, let us know you're
• 1:09:43
  Neil Forbes: out there. And we'll do what we
• 1:09:43
  Neil Forbes: can to bring you more content
• 1:09:47
  Neil Forbes: like we've done this evening. So
• 1:09:47
  Neil Forbes: on that note, can I wish you
• 1:09:51
  Neil Forbes: good evening, and may your dog
• 1:09:51
  Neil Forbes: go with you
• 1:09:56
  Julian Hoad: and may your dog go
• 1:09:56
  Julian Hoad: with you
• 1:09:56
  Neil Forbes: Cheers everybody
• 1:09:58
  Mike Brampton: Cheers Neil,
• 1:09:58
  Mike Brampton: Thank you bery much indeed
• 1:10:01
  Neil Forbes: pleasure, thanks
• 1:10:01
  Neil Forbes: for inviting me to sit down with
• 1:10:04
  Neil Forbes: you guys.
• 1:10:04
  Julian Hoad: Neil. Thanks very
• 1:10:04
  Julian Hoad: much.
• 1:10:06
  Neil Forbes: Pleasure. It's been
• 1:10:06
  Neil Forbes: fun.
• 1:10:08
  Mike Brampton: Have you enjoyed
• 1:10:08
  Mike Brampton: yourself?
• 1:10:09
  Neil Forbes: Yes, I have it, you
• 1:10:09
  Neil Forbes: know that you know that go on.
• 1:10:13
  Neil Forbes: You know me well enough, Mike.
• 1:10:16
  Mike Brampton: It's been
• 1:10:16
  Mike Brampton: fabulous to have you on
• 1:10:22
  Julian Hoad: Oh, do you know,
• 1:10:22
  Julian Hoad: that was the best ever. I think
• 1:10:25
  Julian Hoad: it was fantastic.
• 1:10:26
  Mike Brampton: It was
• 1:10:26
  Mike Brampton: incredible. Yeah.
• 1:10:29
  Julian Hoad: I, there, were huge
• 1:10:29
  Julian Hoad: amounts where we said absolutely
• 1:10:33
  Julian Hoad: bugger all. We didn't need to I
• 1:10:33
  Julian Hoad: think pretty much send it out
• 1:10:37
  Julian Hoad: without our input at all.
• 1:10:40
  Mike Brampton: I think we could
• 1:10:40
  Mike Brampton: but the potential issue there is
• 1:10:43
  Mike Brampton: this is our brand.
• 1:10:46
  Julian Hoad: I thought you
• 1:10:46
  Julian Hoad: bastard why didn't you invite us
• 1:10:49
  Julian Hoad: in. Excellent. Really good.
• 1:10:51
  Mike Brampton: Shut up Neil this
• 1:10:51
  Mike Brampton: is our show, not yours
• 1:10:54
  Julian Hoad: Fucks sake, Enough
• 1:10:54
  Julian Hoad: about vultures. I'm just blown
• 1:10:58
  Julian Hoad: away by that.
• 1:10:59
  Mike Brampton: incredible
• 1:10:59
  Mike Brampton: incredible