Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / REMIX: Album 4 Track 12 – Matt Tumminello, President at Target 10

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REMIX: Album 4 Track 12 – Matt Tumminello, President at Target 10 · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: Brand nerds, Brand Nerds, Brand Nerds. We have a treat today, a treat. Marketing has many disciplines, as you all know, one of them is PR, publicity. Larry and Jeff and I were recently on a zoom with one of our clients and literally when asked about the profession of marketing I think I said Larry or someone else said, you know our jobs, I know we're on public radio, but just give me a little grace here is largely to make shit up. Okay. That's, it's kind of like what marketing is. And so our next guest. Started in the area and the discipline of publicity, but also I'm particularly excited because I like talking Larry to people who do things first or only. First or only, and the brother that we have in the building today this person has done some first and only things. And I can't wait for this to be shared with the Brand Nerds out here. So LT, who do we have in the virtual building today? LT: DC, as you said, we are super excited to welcome Matt Tumminello to the podcast today. Welcome Matt! Matt Tumminello: Hey, thanks guys. It's really nice to be here. That's a great setup. LT: It is a great setup, Matt. So what we do on Brands, Beats, and Bytes is we let the Brand Nerds really understand who they're dealing with. So we got to walk them through your excellent and varied background. So Matt, D, is a proud graduate of The George Washington University, just like both Jade and me. Yes, sir. So it's nice to have fellow Colonial on the podcast. That's right, Matt, go colonial! So after graduating GW, Matt works in a variety of marketing related roles, and this is important to note. His first gig is an Exhibit and Trade Show Assistant. Then he moves on to working in research as an Assistant field manager for Ebon Research Systems. And after a couple years there, he moves on to Thomas Havey and Associates, as a marketing associate, then joins the American Psychiatric Association as a Marketing Manager. He then decides to move into, as you alluded to before D, PR, first as an Account Supervisor at IssueSphere/Nelson PR, then as VP at Sciens Public Relations. What I find interesting, D, is Matt was really able to learn marketing, PR, and research and have ever increasing roles with each move, which seems like it really prepares Matt for his boldest and biggest moves. So you ready for this? You ready? DC: Let's do it. LT: All right. So in 2002, Matt founds Target 10 where he currently serves as the President. Target 10 is one of the first and only marketing and consulting agencies to specialize in LGBTQ+ consumers. In late 2001, Matt told friends and family, if this doesn't work, I can always wait tables or get another job. Well, guess what D? Happy to say Target 10 is thriving and is now celebrating their 20th anniversary, which is amazing. So here's what they say. I want to read this verbatim. Here's what Target 10 says on their "who we are" section on the website. So here's, here's the quote. "The marketing world got a little bit bolder and a lot more queer when Target 10 first opened its doors in 2002, since then we have grown to become the leading LGBTQ+ marketing agency for top tier brands, products, and services. We are an independent, minority-owned, award-winning agency that is proudly certified with the national LGBTQ+ Chamber of Commerce." And D, check this out. I love this. "Our motivation comes from a market where everybody wins. Clients win with insightful creative ideas that build their business. LGBTQ+ consumers win with products and services that enhance their lives and engage them in a way that is respectful, truthful, intelligent, and informative. The professionals at Target 10 win when we get to do what we love creating lasting connections between our clients and the most dynamic and vibrant market in America.? Is that a great summation, D? DC: That is fantastic. It's amazing. LT: So let me just see, let me just finish up with Matt here. So currently Matt is a leading industry voice on LGBTQ+ marketing and frequently speaks on queer culture, representation and visibility. Target 10 has produced award-winning work for such clients as Johnson and Johnson, Pepsi, HBO, Netflix, and Hasbro. And as we've said before, they're celebrating their 20 years of trailblazing work in the LGBTQ+ space. So lastly, on the personal front, most of the time, Matt lives in New York city, but during the summer months, he spends the bulk of this time on Cape Cod, where he and his husband Dominic run Mistralino, an Italian restaurant in the LGBTQ+ vacation destination of Provincetown, better known as P-town, Massachusetts so welcome to Brands, Beats, and Bytes, Matt, Tumminello. Matt Tumminello: Thanks, guys. That was, I get really excited hearing when you are reading all of that and like just, you know, it makes me love my job all over again because you know, I don't actually often read that copy from our website cause I'm doing other stuff, but it's, it's great. So marketing and, and making chicken parms that's my life these days. LT: In that order, it sounds like Matt and Matt, I, I, we've never D we've never done that before where we've read anything from when I first time I just felt that that was so well said. And you know, you founded the company, so we felt it was really important to include. So anyway, love that. DC: So, Matt, this is you getting your flowers. This Larry is really good at giving each of our guests, their flowers. There you are. Matt Tumminello: Man. That was some great romance. I love that. DC: So, Matt, we now have to Get Comfy section and typically it's one question that we talk about. In this case, if you would allow me, I want to ask you two questions. So at least to begin. The story that that Larry gave earlier was that 20 years ago, you decided you were going to become an entrepreneur and that if it didn't work out, you could always wait tables. Larry and I are also entrepreneurs. And so sometimes what we talk about Matt is if we knew what awaited us in this world of entrepreneurship, perhaps we wouldn't have done it. There's so much stuff goes down. When when you were pushing off, so here you are not only wanting to be an entrepreneur, but in an area in terms of marketing, that was largely unchartered. It was uncharted territory. What was going on in your mind, and your heart and soul before you decided to take this bold leap? Matt Tumminello: Oh my God. So much, so much. I think, well, a little backstory. The big push that I got for starting the agency was 911. I was living in Manhattan and beautiful day, as we all remember. Getting chills as I talk about it, you know. I walk out my front door and on sixth avenue and I see it all go down over the next few hours. And that just, I think that, you know, around the world, but especially as Americans and especially as New Yorkers, it really shook everybody up. And you start to say like, well, what am I doing with my family? What am I doing with my life? What's important to me and all that stuff. And you know, I was in my early thirties, so, you know, relatively young and I was just like, you get one ticket. You get one shot. And I had been as you were kind of going through, doing increasingly really interesting, you know, marketing, advertising, public relations jobs. I had not too long ago, moved to New York City and learned in the whole Madison Avenue world. And I'm loving it. But at the same time have always been a bit of an advocate/activist. I'm really passionate about equality for all people. LGBTQ certainly was like kind of my jam. And I was like, I think I can bridge the gaps here. I think I can take all of these amazing skills. I'm learning from these incredible leaders that I'm working with and agency owners and bosses and things like that, and mentors. And how do I apply that to this community? Because I'm convinced once people see how incredible it is; because it's largely hidden. Once I show them how incredible it is. Magic is going to happen. You know, and so that was, that was a bit of the impetus to do it. But then when you were saying like, you know, looking back, would you do it again? I asked I asked someone here to open their own design firm,. I asked that question, I'm like, what'd you do it again? You know, should I do this? And she's her answer was, well, you know, I can't imagine doing anything else, but I don't know if I'd do it again. I don't think I anticipated nearly the, just how hard it was and is, but I'm so glad I did it. I, I absolutely would absolutely do it all over again. Absolutely. LT: Interesting. DC: Yeah. So Larry, any follow up to that? Cause I want to get to my second question, if you, if you have a follow-up, even if you don't. Okay. All right. So Matt. I think I noticed in in some of the information that we exchange before the podcast that either your first client or one of your very first clients was a Johnson and Johnson. And Larry mentioned that as well for Target 10. Is that accurate? Matt Tumminello: Yeah, they've actually, first client and continue to be 20 years later. I am. I owe them so much, so much love. It's been a beautiful relationship. I'm very, very proud of, of that relationship. DC: Well I Matt, I don't believe in coincidence. I believe that the universe has a rhythm and we meet people we're supposed to meet when we're supposed to meet them. So I've got a bit of serendipity. You started Target 10, 20 years ago. I'm going to get to my next question. I can hear him, my mother rest in power, in my ear. Now she's a baby, are you arriving at a point? So yes, yes, mother I'm arriving at a point. But, so you started at Target 10, 20 years ago. Your first client was Johnson and Johnson, J&J, they continue to be a client and you were very thankful for them. Alright. On May 17th, I think it was, I was invited to be the keynote speaker at a summit at a company called Janssen, which is the pharmaceutical arm of J&J. I was invited, first made aware of this opportunity by my good friends and family, they're like a firm that's like a family firm to us called Uniworld Group, UWG. So Greg, Dan, Natty, Monique, they made us aware of this opportunity, introduced me to the folks at Janssen and J&J. The person running it as a sister named Iesha Williams. And so I am able to give the the keynote. The subject Matt, Larry knows this, was culturally inclusive and relevant marketing. That was the subject. It was kicked off by the president, a gentleman named Scott White. I don't know if you know him or know the name, but, you do. Okay. He made it very clear right up to. That this is the way that we are going to operate and it wasn't that he was talking to just a small segment. These were 400 of the leaders of the organization. So to hear that you would Target 10 started 20 years ago, and you had Johnson and Johnson as your first client and they continue to be so. That lines up, it might, my girlfriend says maps back that maps with my experience with them recently, but now I'm coming to the to the question. When I was at the Coca-Cola company. Also in my in my thirties, late twenties and thirties, Matt. Marketing was segregated. There was the African-American marketing department. There was the Hispanic marketing department. And then there was the other group which was called general market, but it was very much split up. Yep. And there was no LGBTQ, segment. That did not exist then, all right. And so now the best organizations, I believe they do great marketing as great marketing. They may market to a particular segment, but they're savvy enough to market to, and through that segment to reach others. So 20 years ago, brother, what was it like for you to then move this segment from just this isolated little group? And at the time when I was at Coke, it was like, okay, I know the African-American American group, but this can be much bigger. So now it is much bigger. What was that like for you 20 years ago, dude. And when you see where things are now. Your thoughts? Matt Tumminello: Yeah, and I was actually lucky enough, never got the business, but lucky enough to actually get in the door for a pitch at Coca-Cola. Cause that would have been, you know, a huge prize back then. Yeah. And I think that the challenge with all of them is like you said, like LGBTQ, forget about that. Even just, you know, Black, Hispanic, it didn't have a home. In many, many places, there was no home for this. And there was an inability exactly what you said for people to see that good marketing is good marketing. We get to learn about our consumers and we go speak to them. We have the double challenge of just, I think it's so easy to forget what it was like 20 years. I was very sad. I was watching Ellen had the last broadcast ever of her tv show the other day. And she celebrated 19 wars. So almost the same as my agency, even though she had her own talk show, she couldn't even use the word gay on her show. So yeah, I was like, I was like, really? And I just forgot because back then I wouldn't have been surprised. You know, you just forget right. She couldn't even use the pronoun "we" when referring to her and her partner. Like "we" went to the movies last night, she had to say "I". And that was the atmosphere. So when we would go into companies, either people wouldn't take our calls or was usually the most junior marketing professionals that would invite me in because they are the future, they're now in their fifties. Right. You know, but their bosses would say no way Jose. We're not going to do this. And so it was just, it was a lot of knocking on doors. And that's why, you know, going back to what you're saying about Janssen, Johnson, and Johnson, like when you have an early champion that stands by you, that's the only reason we got to stick around and, and, you know, live on until more and more people jumped in and got involved. And so back in the day it was hard. People wouldn't take your calls. And, and when I think back of the, almost a personal mental impact, you'd be in meetings and you present a great case and they would say, this is smart. This is an academic. I understand. This is great. You know, we're a real conservative company here. I don't think we're on board with this. It's it's hard to bifurcate that from your personal being. Cause what they're saying is you are not okay for my company and DC: Very much so. LT: Can you not take it that way? Matt Tumminello: I got some thick armor? Yeah. Yeah. LT: Wow. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up the Ellen example. It's so funny. My sister was just telling me she saw the last Ellen and she just, she brought a bit, she said, you know, Ellen was saying all the things that you just said, and that was in '03. And so your company was already around for a year. And so it's incredibly important for the Brand Nerds to understand, by the way, many in their twenties and thirties, who can't even fathom that right now, Matt. That, that that's the climate that you started in. And while it's a much better climate today at ain't perfect either. Matt Tumminello: Yeah. And, you know, I feel so much like we're talking specifically about LGBTQ+ here, but I feel incredible kinship with just multicultural marketers in general, because the general market is multicultural. Probably heard that expression before, but you know, I think I, I'm a part of this alliance for inclusive and multicultural marketing. I get to work with these great agency leaders, brand leaders who are trying to elevate diverse voices and all of us, whatever our specialty is, whatever segment we study, the principle is the same. How do we celebrate? How do we value? How do we bring value? And I think we're just more often than marketers we're educators. And if that's what it takes, that's what it takes. LT: Can you say that one more time? I think that's very deep. More often than just being marketers we're educators, because that's what the moment calls for. You know, we got to teach people about the communities that we know and that we study that might feel a little different from what the market or that you're working with knows from their lived experience. Maybe it's not like the neighborhood they grew up in or the family they were born into, but that's okay. It's just different. It's pretty great. When you get to open the door and take a look. DC: I want to just share this and then we'll move on to the next section. Brand Nerds, we just got a jewel dropped from from Matt here. Matt said that when he was in meetings and companies would say to them, we're not ready to go there yet. That for him, it wasn't just that they were saying, no, they're not ready to go there from a marketing business perspective. It was a challenge for him to bifurcate who and what he is as a human be with this decision that this company is making regarding, they don't want to go there. So Brand Nerds, here's the jewel for those who are listening, the Brand Nerds, who are not LGBTQ, who are not African-American, who are not Hispanic, who are not Jewish, when you are making business comments on marketing that in some way, represents a segment. Be very careful how you do that because you are not just making a comment about that from a business perspective, you may also be making a comment about that very human that's in front of you. So treat that with great care. LT: Great point, D, and before we go away, I want it, Matt, we were met with trading was giving us some great prep information. And Matt, would you mind sharing one of the things that you shared with us in some of the prep info was the impact that you had no idea you would have when you started Target 10 with what happened with some of the people that you work with on the corporate side and what that did for them personally, would you mind sharing that? Matt Tumminello: Yeah, sure. And, and by way of kind of prefacing it when I started the agency, I truly, I mean, of course it was a little mission-driven right? Cause it's, it, it is attached to diversity and inclusion, advancing equality, but I wasn't, you know, I'm not a nonprofit. I was like, when you said, like we're supposed to make things up, we're supposed to sell stuff. Like that's our job. So I approached business in a very academic sense of, guys, I have a terrific opportunity because you've got this brand that a slice of my community can't get enough of let's bridge the gap. Let's build the business case. Make great things happen. And it's certainly the bread and butter, what I do today as well. But what I quickly discovered is it just didn't live in there, the ramifications, the ripple effect because we would have people coming up to us privately saying, thank you, thank you for doing this. I can't be myself at work, but you know what, the fact that my boss hired you guys, maybe I it's okay for me to tell him that, that a gay woman and a man, you know, and we also had a former client was a brand manager, shared this powerful story with me just like two years ago. I didn't know this story at all. He was the first to get Tylenol, to do any LGBTQ market. And there was one of the very first brands at J&J to do any LGBTQ marketing. And you know, we always think of kind of like the marketing takes place in kind of a white collar world and the executive office hours and after hours, some guy from the plant, like from the factory. Came in the marketing building, found Bill and knocked on his door and said, can I come in and talk to you and really poured his heart out? Because no one at the company, he didn't feel safe sharing this about himself with anybody at the companies that go, here's a guy he's not LGBTQ, he's a straight guy, married family, but he clearly believes in this and people are telling them not to do it, but he's doing it anyways. DC: Wow. Matt Tumminello: I want to like tell him what this means to me. And he was like, basically like a private pep talk of saying, don't stop. Keep going. DC: Wow. Matt Tumminello: Like you hear stories like that. And I've got so many and it's like, oh my god, I'm never going to stop. That's when, like, I will work till midnight tonight, you know, like you will, you're gonna like, just keep going for, for those people. LT: And D, I love the way Matt explained that because he was like, you know, and 20 years later it's working, like, you know, this, this agency, Target 10 is really doing great work for their clients. But then these things that Matt, I'm guessing you never would have imagined that positive effect and impact that you could have had on singular people's lives. Wow. What a, what an incredible, you know, w what incredible stuff and great stories, man. Matt Tumminello: Yeah, absolutely. And that's when I think we just quickly became. At a much more mission driven organization, you know, and we, even for ourselves, like you hear about the expression of be your authentic self or whatever. Well, today we are just unapologetically queer. We're unapologetically who we are because what that telegraphs to the people around us might strengthen them, fortify them. We've had people tell us about, my child's transgender and this makes me feel supported. I felt so alone. I'm like, all right, you know, we're going to keep doing this. We're going to keep being who we are and be visible. DC: What I've said on this podcast on more than one occasion is there's a difference between those who follow maps and those who chart territories. And you are a person and those who you have been working with are about charting new territory. People can create maps after someone has determined what the territory will be. So as a, as a fellow territory creator, we salute you. And then finally, I will say this and Brand Nerds, I want to be clear. I'm not saying this to be cute. I'm saying this out of respect and I should've asked earlier. So Matt, your preferred pronoun? Matt Tumminello: He, him, sir. DC: Thank you. You have meaning to you, sir. Alright, here we go. We are now onto five questions, Larry and I go back and forth Matt until we reach five. I have the the pleasure of kicking this thing off, and it is about the first brand experience that really lit you, your soul a fire. The first brand experience, Matt, where, when you were engaged with this brand, you lost track of time. You just, oh man, I love seeing this, hearing this, tasting this, doing this, touching this, whatever it happens to be. Almost like a first love. What was that brand for you? Matt Tumminello: Yeah, for me, this is, and I would, I want to go on eBay and get another one of these is this is back in the day, but it's my Sony FM Walkman. Ah, I, that changed my life because first of all, the packaging, the design of it, like we just didn't have stuff like that. You know, there was like, you had, you know, cheap radios. Maybe you had a stereo. If you were, if your parents, you know, we're lucky enough to get you one, but it was so modern. It was kind of minimalists. It let me listen to my music alone. Like my parents weren't yelling at me anymore for turning music down, but I also got to listen to the music that I liked. Like I was this kid that like, I loved disco and that was not cool in my neighborhood. That was like the first way to get beat up. So it was like an early precursor to like personalization, you know, today we've got playlists and everything's personal. Like. My Walkman was everything. Was everything. And, and, and I'm also like a little bit of an introvert, so that, let me just like be in my world. I, I loved it. I'd never seen anything like it. I still like, just have great memories of that. LT: So D, I have to share, I have, I have the, some of the same memories as Matt does about that Walkman. And I remember remember when they had the Walkman and then they came out with the Walkman Sport that was like bright yellow that you could drop, right? You know, and then they came up with Discman that you can put your CDs in. And I had all of those man. I mean, so I totally get you. And, and I think what's interesting is if you really think about it, that was the precursor in many ways to the iPhone. Because that's such a part of, of what the iPhone is because, you know people did, like you said, you were in your own world and, and people are still doing that today with a device that has, that does a lot more than that. But I love the way you've told that. Matt Tumminello: IPhone. DC: Yeah. I was actually thinking, Matt and Larry, a precursor to the iPod. And the reason why I was thinking about it is because it was music based. But, but here's the thing that Matt you've illuminated and that is the personal connection to this is my music. And what it makes me think about is that Sony probably thought they were in the Walkman or walk disk business. The business they were actually in was providing to people the ability to experience their music personally. And had they thought about that as their music, they may have been able to decouple themselves from the product called Walkman or walk this, and then created the, what, what we now know as the iPod. Similarly to Kodak, they thought they were in the film in the camera business. They were actually in the memories and image business. And that they'd been thinking like that maybe they would have bought Instagram or created IG because it's about memories and images, not about the product itself. So that's what I took away from your your story about the Walkman. That's dope. That's dope. Larry, would you like to go with the next question? LT: Yeah, please. Oh, okay. So Matt, who has had, or is having the most influence on your career? Matt Tumminello: Well, of course, you know, my, my dad of course has the biggest influence in my life, but LT: Tell us more... Matt Tumminello: Comes to my career. A lot of great people along the way, and you know, it can obviously be a long list, but I think the one in particular that I draw from, that mentorship the most, and that example the most is this guy, his name's Scott Creighton, and he's a consultant today, but he was an SVP at Johnson and Johnson that I kind of got connected with 10 years after I had been working with the company. And when I was saying that I was usually brought in by the most junior people and assigned the most junior brand managers, he was the first person I ever worked with directly as a client who was, he was in like the orbit of the C-suite. This is a very powerful man. What I took away from him. He's one of those guys that just doesn't see barriers. He only sees opportunities and he has this gift of bringing everyone along. There's red and, and I should back up and say, he's also a gay man. He saw an opportunity to do more LGBTQ work. And it was obviously a bit of a personal passion, but most importantly, it was a strong and smart business move. Cause he believed in building the company up and, you know, there's, there's still a lot of bureaucracy and red tape and, you know, conservative natures and stuff a decade ago. And he just, he would ask, why not? Why can't we? You know, let's do it. And he made things happen. And I think he's also incredibly disciplined. He's a, he's an amazing athlete to this day. I think he was one of those guys who was like high school, college, afterwards, just incredibly disciplined athletically. And I think that. Also played a role in how he was so successful taking the discipline of an athlete to work, but just seeing his his can-do spirit, he never, never got beat down. He never got you know, that would, that would be hard for me. Sometimes I would feel like giving up. I don't think this guy has ever felt like giving up in his life. And you know, as I saw him fighting the good fight. And getting it done. Like that just inspired me to maybe think a little bit differently, think a little bit more positively, honestly, he's I think more of an optimist than I am by nature. And and so I think of him often I try to pull in like, what would Scott Creighton do? How would he handle this situation? And he had this great gift of bringing everybody along. He wouldn't, he wouldn't plow for a problem, like a tank. He would plow through a problem by getting everybody on the bus and having a great time. So yeah, he's, he's, he's just an incredible person and he's still, you know, an incredible professional today. We're we're in touch. I wish he was actually was still my client, but he's an incredible guy. LT: Wow. D I love that. Scott sounds like an incredibly great mentor, so sh so shout out, you're going to have to send this to them, the public affirmation for that, but, you know, What's amazing about people like Scott is, I'm sure he has his moments, right, privately. But for him, you, you, you talked about him being an athlete and having the discipline to just show that can do spirit. That's an incredible thing to be able to do. Matt Tumminello: Yeah. Yeah. And I think he also saw something that's also inspiring. We talk about being mission-driven. I think he realized he had a very important role. He was very senior person, very important, very influential. And I think he saw the opportunity to be able to advance some change and effectively move forward equality and visibility. He saw that opportunity as an obligation. Um, That he was proud to get behind. He knew it was good business. That was never in question, but he, I think he would, he would not allow himself to let that opportunity pass to not be able to reach back and bring forward, pull, pull up the people behind him, you know. Giving people visibility, given opening doors, opening opportunity, you know, changing the world in the sphere he had control over. I think he saw that as a moral obligation and that's also very, very inspiring. We try to bring that to the work we do at Target 10, always reaching back, always lifting up, always giving visibility. So LT: Scott sounds fearless. Matt Tumminello: Yeah. LT: Fearless, right. And D, I'd love if you can chime in on this, what I'm struck with this, that any, and I'll use, he also has great chutzpah, I'm Jewish, man, and he that's what he personifies, but I think it's very difficult for any minorities and I'll include myself. Like, you know, when you're in a situation, in a corporate situation and you represent of that minority group. It's very difficult sometimes for some people to raise themselves up and say, you know what other people are going to see this the wrong way. And so some people go the other opposite way, right? Like they're, they're not reaching up because they don't want to mess with, with themselves or what they do. They're fearful, Scott's fearless. And that's always very difficult for, for people who are in the positions like Scott are, to navigate. Matt Tumminello: That's so true. And I've worked with some, some professionals that I admire a lot, but that really struggled with that. Maybe a bit further in the past that I can advance this forward. They're going to think it's a personal agenda as opposed to good business. And I probably was guilty of that a little bit too, even, even though that's what my agency was doing. I think I, I tried to downplay it as just like, you know, only this academic exercise is good business. I have no personal interest in trying to advance, advance equality and visibility and, and looking back, that was probably a little bit of BS, but now it's just, you realize when you meet people like Scott, when you meet others who are fearlessly, who they are. There's like, no, this is just like, why would that let this sit on the table? When I have this, this gem is like diamond. I can bring forward. That's going to help everybody. But no, you're totally right. It's, it's a struggle. I don't feel like I have that much anymore. Thank goodness. I had to really make peace with that. But I know a lot of people who have struggled with it, I probably certainly struggled with in the past. I know what you mean. It's like, oh, he's on a personal crusade. Well, not really, but sure. If, if bringing myself forward can make things better. Yeah. It is good. It is good to do that. DC: So Scott Creighton, is that, is that, is that his name? Would you do us a favor? He sounds like a very interesting human and one that I believe the Brand Nerds would benefit in hearing from would you connect us so that we can extend an invitation for him to join us on the podcast? Matt Tumminello: I would. I would love to. He is just phenomenal. Phenomenal guy. You. You'll become fast friends too. The next thing, you know, he'll be inviting you over for dinner. DC: Chicken parm. All right, here we go. Next question. You've had many successes, but just given the nature of where you were 20 years ago, many mistakes had to have been made because you were doing something as a first and an only. So if you could glean into whatever you believe is your biggest F up and share what that was. And, and importantly, what you learned from. I would just be giddy. Matt Tumminello: I think I got a good one. I don't usually talk about this, but I think enough time has passed. It's been almost 20 years. And this was like, I guess it wasn't it, in some ways it was an F up. Definitely learned a lot. But in my call it my passionate quest for inclusion and visibility of people who maybe are different than, than main line, right. For LGBTQ people really encouraged and pushed the brands to include LGBTQ people in their advertising. We have to see ourselves like this is common sense, right? Who would decide. And through my pushing and through, and again, props to these very young brand managers who put their necks on the line. You know, there are two years out of MBA school, getting an ad agency to put an ad together that features, you know, someone who's gay, someone who's lesbian. It, it unfortunately created a nationwide boycott of that brand by anti LGBTQ forces. And then not like that unleashed I, I just was naive. I think I was naive that there was that much bigotry in the world that, that kind of, I mean, I knew it, I would hear about it, but we were kind of prepared but not prepared. And they, they put the home phone number of the chairman online number like this is before cell phones, you know, it was bad. It was, it was bad. And. So I felt really bad. Like I said, for those junior folks that stuck their neck out because what happened was, I'm sure they got in a lot of heat. I'm sure they took a lot of heat. DC: No doubt and no doubt. Matt Tumminello: Oh, diversity and inclusion in advertising, which these, you know, brand managers knew was the right thing to do. So that, that was a tough one, but honestly what I got from it is it fired me up. I was like, you know, I w I also have to be prepared to lose everything. Like if we had, if we could have easily lost that client, all others gain over, get a job waiting tables, you know, but it fired me up. It fired me up. That's also, now it's a sense of. I was like, wow, I, I got a national boycott going. That means I did something. Right. You know, and it wasn't my piece of creative, but I was the one pushing for it. So, proud of that. LT: Did you have a follow-up for Matt? Cause I do. If you don't. Okay. So Matt that's a great story. So I have two follow-up questions. One, what were the ending ramifications for both the people, your, you know, your personal clients and then also, how did, how did the boycott, you know, did it, did it have any impact and yeah, just go with that one. Matt Tumminello: Yeah, sure. I mean, back then, what was fortunately true for all those things is, it's still true today. A lot of boycotts typically tend to be by a small number of very angry people, whatever side they're on, whatever their issue is. And it really doesn't have an impact nine times out of 10. And that is what happened here. It was just a loud group of noisy people making life, you know, really annoying for a week. It goes away. It dies down. Most people aren't on board with this small group of angry people, and most people just could care less one way or the other. So it died down. It went away. You never really know what happens behind the scenes? I was, I was definitely not allowed to be privy to conversations like today. I would probably be brought in as a high level strategist of how to respond that it was like, do not invite this guy to the conference call. And so I, I, again, I, I feel bad cause I think those professionals that stood by me probably took a beating. But they stood by me and we kept doing it. Didn't do any more advertising that year, but they kept with it and, and we haven't stopped. LT: So knowing that it fizzled and all that happened, would you, would you have done anything differently? Matt Tumminello: I probably would have prepared them a little bit more. LT: Got it. Matt Tumminello: Had I done that they might not have done it. Yeah. If I had raised the specter that this is a possibility they might've said, it's too big a risk, so yeah, but I'm proud of it. DC: I I'm impressed that at a at a young age, you were so committed to the mission that you found a comfort in the possibility of losing a client and, or losing a job. And frankly, our belief, Matt, is that until you reach that point in your career, whether you're working for someone or not, it is difficult to get to the magic. Yeah, it's difficult to get to the magic. Matt Tumminello: So you just made me sound a little braver than I actually was. I was terrified, but right. And it didn't get me to the place today where I can be a little bit more look, a little more established. A little more authoritative. More stable. I can be a little bit like this is right. This is wrong. And I'm okay with that. If the chips fall, the chips fall, you know, but yeah. DC: The other thing, I just want to say Larry, before passing the rock to you for the next question is you just talked about where you are now with with Target 10. You are more established. You all are more savvy. You're more experienced, but guess what Brand Nerds, you don't get to that without going through the messiness early. You don't just hop up and get to, oh, it's all going great. We're not making any missteps. It's all lovely. No industry, no expert starts at the top. It just doesn't happen. You've gotta be willing to go through the messiness to get to the beauty. Gotta be. LT: Yeah. And you've got to push the limits too, D. That's what Matt did by pushing the limits. So, DC: Yeah. Cool. All right, Larry, next question brother. LT: Alright, Matt. So regarding technology and marketing, you have really seen in your career, the growing power of tech. So can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech versus areas that they should be leery. Matt Tumminello: I think for, speaking personally where technology has worked really well for us. And I think for marketers, it's an amazing tool and opportunity to hyper target, to go deep, like is, is the world of social media. You know, that's been a game changer in the last few years. And for us, we're typically working with small budgets. We're typically working with brands that aren't necessarily going to do an LGBTQ ad campaign. They might have inclusion in their general market work, but they may not have the budget or the, the scope to do. And what social media gave us the opportunity to do with social media influencers is to bypass the need for immediate. And go straight to, we do a lot of influencer work and he liked to work with people that have opinions that are educators, artists, advocates that have something to say and we look to, to find ones that align really, really well with the brands we represent, whether it's health or, or entertainment or whatever it might be. And, and then, and then go and then unleash them. And it's kind of flattened things. It's made the market so much more accessible. And so for myself, and I think for multicultural marketers in general and for LGBTQ, it allows us to instantly connect with an audience that we need to connect with and create that relationship. That otherwise, if we didn't have a big ad campaign or an ad budget, you know, wouldn't possible. So I know that's not like a breaking technology, but social media continues to just be this incredible tool for us. And at the same time, we all know there's a lot of evils with social media, the worry about our kids. I worry about personal information. I worry about all that stuff. So that is. Topic for smarter people to tackle and we're well aware of it. You know, we try to navigate that, but the upside of it is it's allowed us to really go deep with audiences that probably had also, sorry, the last point, maybe the influencers we work with can look like people that never get spoken to. It gives us opportunity to work with people that like, wow, their gender expression, their race, their ethnicity, their sexuality, whatever it might be like that's, you know, that's not seen by a lot of people, but there's a lot of people like that. We're going to get, we're going to get visibility through that person to connect with those people and say, you know what? This brand is partnering with this amazing, making it up, you know, a person who's known for being an educator on a particular issue. And it was so smart and thoughtful and they reach people just like you. And here's what they have to say. I think that's that's that's been a great boon from. LT: That's awesome. I love, I love the way you express that from the, from coming from the, your, your prism and what you guys do and how the changes again, like from '02 to now. And I would imagine it's also tricky with influencers, right? Because what's hot today is might not necessarily be tomorrow. And how authentic are they? So I imagine that that's part of what you guys also do. The value that you create at Target 10 is to really be really beyond the cusp of understanding where the best influencers in, in all your verticals and of course, in your entire world. Matt Tumminello: Yeah, absolutely. And what we tend to do our practice is we work with up and coming voices a lot more often than established voices. For practicality matter that a heck of a lot more affordable, but it also just makes for more interesting work. You know, celebrities are great and sometimes there's a time and a reason to have maybe an LGBTQ celebrity, right. But we like to work with, you know, up and coming diverse voices of the community that have something to say, and maybe they only have 60,000, 75,000 followers and not a million, but what comes out of it is just so great. And so that actually keeps things fresh too. Every year. It's like who's who are the new voices? Let's go visit them. See what they're talking about. As opposed to maybe what you're talking a little bit, like things can get stale, like what's of the moment right now, and also in the LGBTQ community, things are moving so fast that like the maturity model, like it is six months might be six years in general market. Things move really, really fast. What is important to the community or a slice of the community at any one moment in six months could very well be quite different. LT: Love that. That's a huge point. D do you have a follow up? Do you want to go to the next one? DC: I'm ready to go. The next one, Matt, it's pretty simple. What are you most proud of? Matt Tumminello: I am most proud of I'm this is, and this is our, our, my team, everyone who's ever worked with me over the years, even those, those clients, I mentioned like, if you look at the balance of our work for 20 years, day in and day out, the tool we have at our disposal is marketing, advertising, communications. We have been elevating and giving voice to LGBTQ people. And to be seen as to be heard. To be heard is to be seen. These are things that like, otherwise may not have always happened. Certainly there's a movement. Quality is moving forward. We're hardly the strongest force making that far, but, but we play a role and we're the ones early on raising in meetings. Like how about we bring in some LGBTQ people into this creative that we're doing here. If we never raised our voices 20 years ago to suggest that maybe would have been another five years before it happened. And then today, like that's kind of an easy example, but today, how are we pushing things forward? And also when I was talking about being an educator and being a marketer, because LGBTQ is so new, that we just have to be educators. Our clients have a lot of questions. There's things they want to know more about. They don't understand. So it's more than just putting forward a objective strategy and a tactical plan, we have to educate. So all of that stuff we're doing is I believe changing lives. And we have clients who have said you've helped me with my kids. One of my, maybe one of their kids came out or helped me be a better person. The visibility that we're given, I told you about like the guy from the plant going into that, it's just like, it's just the balance of our work over 20 years and the role we play. To hopefully make it better and see everyone's humanity, not just LGBTQ, everyone's humanity. I think we played a role in that. So proud of it. I want to do more of it. It's it's been great. So that's, that's what I'm most proud of. LT: That's deep. DC: Wow. Hmm. That's beautiful. Beautiful, Larry. Shall we get to the next section? LT: Yeah, I wanted that to breathe because I think that's it. And quite candidly, you have a lot to be proud of, dude. Really. Matt Tumminello: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. LT: Alrighty, we're going to segue Matt to our next section. What we call what's popping. What's popping D? DC: What's Poppin? LT: All right. Matt, this is our chance to shout out, shout down as simply air something in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. So D, you want to take the first one or shall I? DC: Would you do the honors? LT: Okay. So I thought this would be where we're at the beginning of June and Matt as Matt alluded to it's the beginning of Pride Month. So Matt, I know a lot of companies are trying to take part in Pride Month, which is a wonderful thing, but can you talk to us about the companies that do Pride Month well and what they do versus the companies that maybe have some missteps and don't do Pride Month very well and feel free to share examples and name companies or not as you like. Matt Tumminello: Yeah. Yeah. And with all of this stuff, it is a little bit this is, I think the beauty of the industry that we've all been a part of it's art and science. Right. You know, sometimes like they connect and you just know in your gut, oh, that's magic. Like that's beautiful. And sometimes, you know, when you're got like, ah, that's, that's, that's maybe a little crappy, you know? And I think, listen, it's Pride seasons. We're going to see like, just what you said, a flood of companies falling over themselves to express their support or maybe market a product or something. And it is a good thing, on balance, it's a very good thing. But we'll see a lot of great stuff and a lot of bad stuff. And it's kind of gone off the rails a little bit because everybody talks about authenticity and that's great, but you might see a great piece of work from a brand that maybe feels highly authentic, but reality is isn't really? Because if you're never been engaged in this community and you're never going to be engaged again for another 12 months or longer, It's the balance of your presence that makes you authentic, like showing up in a community, Black community, gay community, whatever. It might be, Jewish community. They get to know you, they get to expect you're going to be at the party. Oh yeah. You're not, you're not the deadbeat dad who comes once a year at the Christmas, you know, you're like, oh, he's he's at every family reunion. He's at every party he's at every. And so that's a little bit like brand love here. And I think the brands that do well, the ones that are continually showing up. Brands that do it well, know that during pride month you celebrate, you don't sell. Uh, There are cultural moments that are important to cultures that are not appropriate to be selling your product. It's important to be celebrating. You got 11 months to do hard sell for whatever you want, you know, tires, face cream, you know, lens. But I think some that do it really well. Like over the years Marriott's done it really, really well Procter and Gamble's done it really, really well. J&J's done it really, really well. So yeah, expect to see that you're going to see a lot of limited edition pride products. I feel a little weird about that. Some of it's pretty awesome. It makes me happy. I know also symbolically when you see these rainbow packages and stuff, if you live in places in the country that aren't so LGBTQ friendly, that actually really telegraphs a good message that makes you feel safe and supported and not so alone, but the ones that do it with nothing to back it up, they don't ever walk the walk in the community. It's a little hollow. So yeah. Yeah. LT: That's what I expected. That's great stuff. What you've continually set on on the show today is that you've got to educate. And so that's why I thought, you know, that you're, you're celebrate, don't sell, I think is the headline here for for companies involved in, in Pride Month, because you need to just not, like you said, show up for Pride Month then and try and sell stuff. That's the worst thing you can do. Matt Tumminello: Absolutely. DC: Now, Matt, Larry and I don't, don't share with one another our what's popping. We just come to here and I hear he is for the first time, he hears mine, and then we may hear our guests. So this is consistent with that. It's interesting that Larry, you went there because I'm in the same place. And I'm also where you are Matt. Here is my what's popping. You Matt, said, see everyone's humanity, not just LGBTQ. This is where this is where you are, and I'm gonna come back to that in a moment. I want to use birthdays. So my former wife, her her maiden name was Odom and my last name is Cobbin. So we named each of our three daughters Odom-Cobbin. So in the Odom-Cobbin family, birthdays are a really big deal. We really pay attention to birthdays. We go out, we celebrate, and the family has a really good time. Now I have now been divorced for coming up on six years. We still celebrate birthdays, still celebrate birthdays. I'm also a part of my daughter's life, throughout the year, but just imagine for a moment, if the only thing I did all year long, for all three of my daughters was show up at a birthday party. Imagine what my daughters would think about me as a father. Of course, they'd be very happy that I was there to celebrate the birthday with them, but they would wonder where the hell I've been for the other 364 days. So my was my what's popping is a term that you will be very familiar with Matt, and you may be as well, Larry, rainbow washing. Rainbow washing. And so while I am elated that there are many brands that celebrate Pride Month. I get a little irritated because I think while I'm not LGBTQ. I ain't seen y'all. Okay. Where ya been? And so I just wonder, how you Matt, deal with that. Matt Tumminello: I, you know, honestly, it's a little bit of an eye roll and I th I think, I think the results speak for themselves, like, wow, what a waste of money that was, you know. It's too bad, you know, it's, that's when you, like, you want to be like, oh my God, I love, and can I have 15 minutes with, with those guys just to explain to the brand like where this miss is coming from, but, you know, honestly, there's, every, every brand team is different. Some are open to learning and listening and getting involved and others just want to be like, tell me everything I need to know in one hour and that on and off to the races we go, and that's just, that's lazy. I think lazy. You know, when your approach is lazy, the results are lazy. They're lackluster. So it's kinda like, it's also just, it's so obvious you don't have to be LGBTQ to see. You know like Target. Target's pretty awesome on assuming it's not just their marketing, like they speak out against the anti LGBTQ legislation. They got awesome employee policies for their cost. You know, if their employees and customers like that makes me feel really good. So when I see Target do something for Pride, I'm like, of course Target's going to do something for Pride. They're always doing something in our community. They're always at the table. You know, find another big box store that maybe doesn't do that. And it's just, when they do work, it might be good. It might make me happy. I might like it. But it just doesn't land as strongly. Yeah. LT: That's, that's a great example. You know, I I'm struck by what you say at Target. I actually worked way back in the day with Brian Cornell. Who's the CEO of Target. We worked at a Tropicana together and he's a really good human, so that makes sense. Matt Tumminello: That word human again, right? Yeah, DC: That little word. So I also want to shout out Maurice Cooper. He is a SVP over there in marketing at at Target. He's also a really good human being. And then I want to go just to data real quick. And then we're going to go to your what's poppin' Matt. Is that remove the, the label for a moment? Any title, if you just held up the code numbers and you said, okay, might your brand or business be interested in the segment that has the following, higher education level than the general population? More household and individual income than the than the general population. Yes. Willing to try things, early. So the early, early engagement, would you like that? Would you like to have some of that? Yes. I like to have some of that. Ability to then advocate for a brand product or service once this particular segment says, yes, it's good. No brand or business in the world would say, nah, none of that. They would have to say, I want some of that. But then when you put LGBTQ as the label on top of it, then you've got these gummies, well, I'll do it for a month, either four weeks or something like that. But it's, if you just came to the cold objectivity of the data, Yeah. One could argue that the LGBTQ community might be the first segment that many brands and businesses would be looking at. So anyway, this is why I find it slightly irritated, but I'm going to get off my soap box. I'm gonna get off. Matt Tumminello: Well, just to go a little deeper there, like it you're totally right. And, and when you, when you do take a closer look, I mean, there's some pretty phenomenal stats about the community, but when you, when you slice and dice the LGBTQ, right, you get different things, different wealth and poverty levels, different, you know, gender gaps that shouldn't be lost on brands is like, we're not always selling a Lexus. Most people can afford a $5 product. There's a lot of $5 products in the world. Right. So think about, you know, the opportunities that you're out there. Like you said, maybe you've you know, I think there's that there's a high, high over indexing for kind of healthy organic foods among gay women, among lesbian. Yeah. Okay. That seems like a natural fit for so many food products that only cost a dollar to $3 or at the high end of organic produce or something, $10. But that's in the realm of possible for most people. Right. So it's just like taking, taking a minute, just a minute, go a little deeper. DC: Great point. Great point brother. Great, good point. Matt, do you have a what's poppin for us? Matt Tumminello: You know, my, my poppin was really about that like brand authenticity and Pride Month. Like this here it comes everybody get ready. And I think something also that I find is lately, and I think this is probably true in other multicultural audiences too, but certainly true for LGBTQ is a confusion between. That's not authentic and that's not our brand. LT: And please speak to that. Matt Tumminello: I will, I will. I'll say that. I think there is a confusion between that's not authentic and that's not our brand because something can be authentic, but it might not authentically be your brand right now. Like there's just there's differences. I think if you're doing some work or really strong, creative brief, a really strong brand brief, influencer brief, that's going to make sure you're on brand. That's going to make sure that the, the casting, the copy, the influencer you select is all on brand. Feels like you guys. But when it comes to authenticity, it's sometimes funny when brands will push back, that doesn't feel authentic to me. And it's like, I get it, but you're not even a member of this community. And we've got. Really like opinion leaders telling you, this is what everybody's thinking about right now. It's super authentic. Just because something might not dress the way you dress, talk the way you talk, live the way you live. It might feel different from you, but that doesn't make it bad. Like differences, good differences, good. Like expose people to that. Like it it's just a slight segue. I was talking to one of the producers directors of that Amazon show Transparent, Zackary Drucker, and what they were telling me was listen, a lot of times in television, they try to, you know, homogenize everything. So it has the broadest appeal, right? When you do that, it becomes the least interesting. Transparent, a show about transgender issues. Highly specific. Smash hit. Because people like stuff that's interesting. Show me something I've not seen before. Show me something interesting. Something different. Makes me think, makes me wonder. It makes me love it. Hate it. Like don't show me something that I won't remember. So just because it's different, doesn't make it bad. It's sometimes just makes it authentic. LT: So true. DC: Strong LT: and D you know, w Matt's example of TV is such a good one. And Matt, we talked about this all the time at our consulting practice at Brand Positioning Doctors, is that too often people try and chase, you know, they w they, they don't want to piss somebody off, or they feel like they want to get the wide market. And when you, when you try and appeal to wide market, you appeal to no one because you don't stand for anything. Versus when you sacrifice, we have 10 commandments of branding. That's that's number one. Thou shall sacrifice. And that's what you're talking about. When you really dive deep and, and stand for something, that's a hell of a lot more interesting and appealing to people. Matt Tumminello: That's so smart. I love that. Thou shall sacrifice. Is that what it is? Yes. DC: Yeah, that's it. That's it, man. LT: D what's this? I can't believe we're at the end here. How great is Matt did? Oh, man. Matt Tumminello: I'm glad. I'm glad. This is great. LT: This is fun. This is great. So Matt, we're at the show closed and where this is where we posit learnings. So D shall I go first or do you want to? DC: Would you please? LT: Okay. I will. I will go first. So to please our, our wonderful business partner and producer Jeff, you know, Jeff likes three things in odd numbers. 1, 3, 5. So I have three and a bonus. Okay. So DC: He's, he's gonna pop up and have a problem. LT: So I have four, but I'm, I'm saying three, J. So the first one is what Matt was talking about before, and yes, it's very much part of what they do at Target 10, but I think it, it, this should be the case in any marketing situation you're in. That we have to be educators because if people don't understand the market that you're going for, the specifics of the brand and the specifics of the target. Invariably, it's not going to work. So we are educators and we, and that's vitally important to please keep that in the forefront. So that's number one. Number two is I love what Matt said is that Target 10 is unapologetically queer. That means from what I get is that means they are truly genuine to who they are as a company. And, and, and I would imagine the folks that work there. And so the message to the Brand Nerds is just be who you are, the more genuine you are and more unapologetic about it. That's going to resonate with people and guess what? The people that it does piss off, and it doesn't resonate with you probably don't want to be around them. Yeah. That's number two. Number three can do spirit like Scott Creighton. You know, what, what Matt was talking about with Scott Creighton, that he doesn't see barriers that he only sees opportunities. You know, we all have private moments and I'm sure Scott does where you feel like you're just battered and beaten down, but you got to fake it sometimes. And especially when you're in leadership position to show can do spirit is just incredibly, incredibly important. Right? My fourth one and last one. So it's incredibly important to be fearless and live your life with fearlessness. And when you are in a position of power, and it works for the business. That's really important. Go back and genuinely help others that are like you reach back and help. I think that's what Matt alluded to is to talk about back, reaching back and help. It's gotta be right for the business. You don't want to do something that's artificial and that's out there because that'll end up being more harm than good. But if it's right for the business, go back and re reach back and, and make it happen and help others. So those are mine. DC: Strong, strong. Larry, I'm going to pick up where you left off. You talked about doing something for the business and also doing something to reach back, to help. When COVID began. I really missed human contact. I missed being in offices with our clients. I missed having impromptu conversations over a meal. I thought that that impacted the level of creativity and connectedness because we were not physically together. So I was not a fan of the whole Zoom thing. But then I recognize something with zoom, Matt and Larry. And it was this because I was witnessing people in their homes and then their environments, those that didn't use filters. I was learning something about who this human happened to be that I would not have gotten if we were out at a restaurant or in an office or in a conference room. And so there's something about one surroundings that communicate, speaks to who and what they are. And so Matt, I'm going to speak to this, with your surrounding and I'm going to theme this thing, beautiful duality. Beautiful duality. Brand Nerds, you aren't able to see this, but behind Matt, he's got three different things. There's a picture of what looks to be Snoopy and it has "Matt" underneath. So Snoopy. So for those of you all who are aware of Snoopy, Snoopy was a character in Peanuts. It's a dog. And so Snoopy had this duality of, he was happy by himself. He dances put as his puts his nose up and dances to music, his feet flap. His ears flap. But Snoopy also had fun with the other Peanuts characters. So he was independent and had his fun, but he also had his fun together with the Peanuts folks. So that's at the top of what Matt has in his room. Right below the the peanuts picture that has Snoopy on it with "Matt" is a sign that says piano bar 8:30. So there's a time, 8:30 piano bar. So numbers are important. 830 as a number, Matt, is called an angel number, and I'm going to read some of what this number means. 8 3 0. It indicates that you are ready for a new cycle in your life. A radical change is brewing and you have to follow the flow. It continues the 830 number symbolizes death and resurrection. So it indicates the death of your old life and the resurrection of a whole new life. With a whole new destiny and new habits. That's what the number means. All right. Finally, beneath the piano bar sign is a single stool. It's a silver stool that Matt has there. And I submit that this stool says, sit with me, me, and we can have a conversation. So you sit on the stool, you independent you and talk to me and we can have a conversation. So you have the duality of Snoopy, dancing by himself. Independent and then together. You have the duality of the, of the number 830. A death and a resurrection and old life and a new life. And then you have the stool which symbolically represents sit, and then sit with me. And then let me go to where, where you were at the beginning. Larry, when you introduced that are suspicious flower giving introduction of Matt and you read this from About Us. And it says, and I quote, "We are an independent minority owned award-winning agency that is proudly certified with the national LGBTQ+ chamber of commerce." the first word was independent. And then the very next sentence says our motivation comes from a market where everybody wins. Independent and everybody. My summation of brother Matt, is that you are a living beautiful duality. And because you are a living beautiful duality, you have constructed a life that represents and manifest that. And you are giving that as a gift to the rest of us, that we can be beautiful dualities in our own lives. That's what I have for your brother. Matt Tumminello: I'm sorry. I have to say I moved a little give you chills because something that you don't realize is the 8:30 duality, that old life, new life. That sign from my wedding day. DC: Wow. Oh no. Matt Tumminello: Leaving my previous wonderful life behind and starting a new journey. Couple months after it became legal, a new journey with my partner of 10 years at that point. So that I, that just blew me away. I'm not even sure what to say, but wow. Thank you. I think I, and actually everything you say that feels like me, I feels like me. LT: So Matt, DC has a way of bringing things together that Matt Tumminello: I don't know how that happened. LT: Very incredible. So that's wonderful that you feel that, that it moved in still and you feel that way. And I don't know if you're too moved, but if you have anything before we say goodbye, Matt, that you'd like to, to share, or just from the conversation, anything that you want to accentuate or anything that you learned from this wonderful conversation with. Matt Tumminello: Yeah, just first. Thank you. I've really enjoyed this and you guys have such a long career in marketing, branding, strategy that to here, you know, I actually was listening to your other podcasts to hear the things you've said, do you see your learning come through here? It feels awesome to connect. They feel pretty honored to be a guest. So, so thank you for that LT: We are as well with you. Matt Tumminello: And then, you know, I, I use the platform just to say it you know, it is Pride Month, right? But there, this is a really tough times for LGBTQ people right now. And there's a real chance my marriage might get undone. There's a real chance, you know, not a real chance, but our mere existence is LGBTQ people as being criminalized in some places. So I think for everybody listening, just try to learn, try to be kind, open your hearts. Get to know something new. We don't have to understand it all immediately. We don't have to, you know, come to terms with everything right away, except everything right away, but just lead with kindness, lead with your hearts and listen, like when people are hurting, especially young people, you know, just, you know, reach out and help them and be supportive. Cause that's really, you know, I'm 54, I'm a tough guy. I can take it, but there's a lot of, you know, people who are more vulnerable and they, they need your help. So I'll leave you with that. LT: So incredibly well said, Matt and I will leave you with what my wife and I have said this for all time. Since, since this, you know, marriage, gay marriage became a thing. ,It's like, how does it impact anyone's life? If two other people, no matter what sexuality they are affect you, it doesn't, it doesn't affect you in your pocketbook in anything you do. So just like you said, be kind and accept people for who they are. That's really the bottom line. DC: And I I'll just say this very quickly, Matt, you spoke about how fast things are moving in the LGBTQ space. Like six months can be six years. Let's remember folks. It wasn't that long ago where people of different races could not marry. This was not some like 500 years ago kind of a thing. LT: D was in our lifetimes. Maybe not Matt's, but yours and mine. DC: Yeah. And in our in our lifetime. So let's, let's keep these things in mind. LT: Yes. Well said. Matt Tumminello: I would say it is, you know, if you're out there saying proud to support the LGBTQ community and your marketing materials and stuff, you can not, not find your voice right now. You cannot proudly support if you do not find your voice on this issue. Protect your employees, protect your customers. You know if you're a Fortune 500 company, you are iconic already, you're important. And you have a role in making sure everybody's taken care of. LT: That's a mic drop right there. Mic dropped. Going in the show closed here. So thanks for listening to Brands, Beats and Bytes, recorded virtually on Zoom and a production of KZSU Stanford 90.1 FM radio and worldwide, a KZSU.org. The Executive Producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl DC Cobbin, myself, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro. DC: The podfather. LT: Yes, sir. And if you are listening to us via podcasts, it would be great if you can please rate and review us. 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