Latest / Follow the Leighder / Deconstructing Masculinity and the Savior Complex | Larry the Sociologist
Transcript
- Leigh/@followtheleighder: Well, howdy folks, and welcome back to another episode of Follow the Leighder I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and joining me, ooh, we went a little international over the border today. Joining me from Canada is Larry the Sociologist. Welcome, Larry. Larry The Sociologist: Hello. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. I'm very happy to be here. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Now, Larry the Sociologist given name is Lawrence Carter. And Lawrence is an educator and ⁓ edutainment creator. Of course, thank you. We need more education online. We really do. ⁓ raised in California, now studying research in Canada, got nearly a decade of experience looking at social patterns, unspoken rules, and cultural forces that shape our everyday lives through the He does a lot of this all on content creation, but you've also I mean, this is what you've got your masters in. This is your your passion, your focus. Really, I've seen your your work on capitalism, masculinity, fascism, Christian nationalism. Talk to us about coming in, because you you did sociology as an undergrad too. So you kind of knew what you were about. So talk to us about getting into sociology. ⁓ what was what was your upbringing in your childhood like to to really start observing people? Larry The Sociologist: Hm. Yeah, I appreciate the question. It's a I've always been interested in ⁓ systems, ⁓ simply because I've I've found them to be, you know, ⁓ people are very ⁓ very different in our in both our approaches and our ⁓ thoughts about, you know, the world around us. But systems are consistent. ⁓ and although I can very much appreciate the ⁓ spontanea spontaneity of and the beauty in humanity and people, understanding, you know, hundred year old things that have still been operating and are still operating, you know, that that always was so interesting to me because there are systems that have lived longer than me and will be here after I'm gone. You know, th they're here before me and after me. And ⁓ you know, who put these together? Why do they exist? You know, th these things have always since I was a kid ⁓ just been very interesting questions to me. And diving more into that, you know, I feel like sociology was just the inevitable conclusion that I was gonna come to in learning to understand and asking questions about systems. It's always the I was always the big head kid in the backseat saying, Why? You know, I I just wanted to know more. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Absolutely. And you were raised in San Bernard Bernardino, California. you're talking about systems. What speci like what kind of systems were you observing in California or or just around your local community that that sort of sparked that? Larry The Sociologist: Yeah, so ⁓ Yeah, yeah. I I well, I grew up in abject poverty. ⁓ very so Sanardino is not a ⁓ a very economically salient ⁓ city ⁓ by any means. ⁓ so the difference in what I was perceiving maybe on TV or maybe visiting loved ones or families ⁓ that lived in in different, more secure places, I was like, wait a minute. Well It it's winter and I'm the only one with the jacket on in the house. Like why what is you know, what is what is happening? Why why is it why is it that some of these privilege, like you know, like a microwave, very small luxury that we don't necessarily consider to be a luxury today, but ⁓ growing up, you know, I I did have questions about why are things so different? I mean, the people aren't different. I mean the we're just as human as everybody else and and this is my best friend. Why then ⁓ does he not experience the same level of abject poverty in the same place that I am? What was different about his journey? What was different not only about ⁓ the people in his life, but what was different about What is surrounding his life that kind of ⁓ pushed these outcomes? Like w you know, w what is that focal point? Why is my life so different ⁓ than my loved ones and peers? And that question kind of ⁓ kind of steered me for ⁓ for a few years, you know, just really just trying to understand why. ⁓ and I I think that was my initial I I believe the why would have been there, regardless of the abject poverty. but I that was ⁓ an initial driver for it. I I wanted to understand why there were different outcomes for the same types of people. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Mm-hmm. And there's such a the different outcomes, the different ways of seeing the world, the different languages, the different it's just like you said, it the the systems completely change lives. And humans are so flexible and dynamic that being aware of the systems that we're in can actually really empower us. ⁓ or at least give us the information, give us some closure, just like knowledge being power. Can you talk about some of the early things you did in your research ⁓ that gave you a lot of clarity or just kind of was like, ⁓ that that made things click or were just kind of interesting. ⁓ and it can be around poverty and capitalism or or really anything else you've studied. Larry The Sociologist: Yeah, yeah, certainly. ⁓ well w with respect to the same. ⁓ it happened before ⁓ the research came. That happened at undergrad. Me having access to, you know, being able to read other people in similar situations, reading W E B Du Bois ⁓ and and other just Angela Davis, like these phenomenal minds that had seemed to have worked out what is happening, like what is is what is specific to the situation that I grew up in, as well as like what caused ⁓ the systems specific to ⁓ my my upbringing. But also otherwise, a lot of what I ⁓ was learning was deconstruction, kind of decolonizing ⁓ and destructing ideas that I had always held, particularly about who I am, particularly about being a man, ⁓ about how I interact with my loved ones, about how I perceive myself, about where I fit in this big, beautiful world that we live in. You know, ⁓ that those questions particularly, and Bell Hooks was an answer for me to a lot of those questions. one specific point of research ⁓ was reading ⁓ Bell Hook's ⁓ Wealth Change. You know, I I have from just just from that, ⁓ just from the reading, let alone the the projects and the the essays and assignments that I had that were attached to that, just reading it alone, I I was like, ⁓ my good, where th this makes so much sense. I I I can't you know, understanding that I had I had been, you know, overly competitive in trying to be a man. ⁓ you know, that that kind of ⁓ competing with my desire to cooperate, you know, that small thing was like the biggest unlock ⁓ for me that that I had in my research experience and just in my educational career, honestly. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm. That is, I mean, that is profound because you're talking about going into a study where you're studying systems of people and I'm hearing you talk about this existential, like, ⁓ this is like huge. And even your your your mention of and I th I wanna but the competition versus cooperation. Like here you are, you see the world, you're going into the world, trying to compete with it as a man. And then this whole swing more into cooperation. Now that might be heresy to some to to some masculine folks here, but can you while we're here, can you talk about that that sort of unpacking from competition to cooperation? As a man, when we I guess for us as women, because we don't we don't know what the male experience is, but when when ⁓ men are being exposed to these Larry The Sociologist: Ha ha. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Deeper, I don't know, more inclusive, cooperative, collaborative ideologies. What does that look like for you as a man? Like, is there grief and breakdowns and lots of guilt and shame? Or is it a smoother, slower? Like, kind of walk us through this because I think a lot of people hear what you're trying to say, but they they get scared when they hear deconstruction. So kind of is is it something to really fear? Is you know? Larry The Sociologist: Hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: What what does it look like to to deconstruct from competition to cooperation as a man? Larry The Sociologist: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I you know what, that that is true. ⁓ I have had conversations with, you know, loved ones and and people that are not loved ones, just you know, people that I know. and and yeah, it you know, s ⁓ I don't wanna ⁓ you know minimi minimize people's experiences, new things are scary. And that even if you're a a a lover of new things, new things are it still scary. They're there indeed even if they excite you, ⁓ there there is a an element of the unknown that is, you know, what if this goes bad or what if I don't like it? Or what, you know, the the possibility of it not being favorable. So that that is very real. ⁓ but ⁓ for me specifically I think it depends on what it is that you are working through when you're going from competition to collaboration. For me, I had the privilege of being in a religious environment when I was doing my initial deconstruction work. So me understanding what it means to be a man, I could easily reference ⁓ the it was ⁓ Christian religion. ⁓ and I could easily reference Jesus because all of the ⁓ you know, toxic masculinity tropes and all of the, you know, men are supposed to do this all of that didn't apply to Jesus, which is ⁓ supposed to be like the pinnacle of everything that you could be. And me understanding that connection, like, okay, well I I can at least point to this perfect being ⁓ to set an example for me to a as what it is to be a man. And, you know, neither here nor there, everything that that he was is Very similar to the ⁓ kind of deconstruction and type of manhood that Bell Hooks was describing, but I guess that's a that's a different topic for a different conversation. ⁓ but I I think it depends on the realm of which if you are in in more ⁓ male dominated fields, like if you're, you know, a plumber, for example, and you're around a group of plumbers, ⁓ you know, softness and co cooperation and collaboration. ⁓ would be a little bit harder to come by in those situations, particularly with respect to like deconstructing ideas that you've already learned. but because I had the privilege of being in an environment where it was already acceptable to be like Jesus, ⁓ that was helpful. And that that is almost paradoxical, ⁓ because that is a lot of the opposite of what people Leigh/@followtheleighder: Hm, yes. No. Larry The Sociologist: take ⁓ from religion as a whole, not specific to Christianity, but especially including Christianity. And ⁓ for me that reading the reading the books of Bell Hooks, understanding the global, you know, what what it means to be a man in different places and the global context and the subjectivity of being strong and being a man, understanding all of these things at once kind of helped me deconstruct and helped me move from, you know, ⁓ Maybe I don't need to try to outshine somebody that's working on a a project that I appreciate. Maybe I could help them bolster the project if we both appreciate it. If we if if it's both ⁓ if it's something that we both agree on and believe in. Maybe I could be a part of something that I didn't initially start myself. That was the beginning of my breakdown and collaboration. And then along those lines, it was just more of that. Like, wow, that that felt really good. And we did something. beneficial for the community or beneficial for somebody outside of us, I'm gonna do that again. And how else can I do that? And then it w it was from that point, it was more of an avalanche. ⁓ but I I really do believe that that process of deconstruction really is dependent on environment. You can have all the ideas you want to yourself, but ⁓ having those ideas alone can feel isolating and it can feel like you're doing something wrong. Because as I said ⁓ earlier Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Larry The Sociologist: These are scary things. Doing something different is scary, ⁓ for for many people. And being able to acknowledge that it is scary is a big step, but also being able to work through that fear and ⁓ have an environment that supports you in working through that fear. That that was really the privilege and the benefit that I had to work through these things. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Absolutely. And you know, part of why ⁓ many men cling, especially in the United States, with Christian nationalism or just like more conservative Christianity or religion, is because it there's a book that tells them that they, you know, are in charge for this thing. But like you said, you can also find Jesus completely spinning that. and even the way he treats women in the gospels is different than how and it's it's mind blowing ⁓ to ⁓ for for a lot of folks. Larry The Sociologist: Yeah. It's it's interesting how we got to the opposite conclusion. In in my perspective, I was like, How what? Like this this means that you are supposed to dominate over women or you're supposed to like, you know, tell them what to do or or lead women in that respect. Like you women you don't know, women you have no contact with, women that have more experience than you, women that have more qualification like it just never made sense to me. ⁓ but, you know, ⁓ it's a big world out here. It's a big world out here. Some people can take that and twist it. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And something you said just a minute ago about ⁓ not needing to outshine or like, you know, you talked about decolonizing your thoughts on life, just like not needing to go and take over everything and dominate, you know, this this constant competition. and learning to appreciate the collaboration. And I've like I've really enjoyed not. being so heavily responsible for things because I don't need to control d if that like even in like mine, I'm like, no, this is cool. Let's just bring in the other people that are experts or passionate and we will empower them, help, whatever. I'll and then I get more done. I have a larger community and network. Like I feel like I'm a part of different things because I did a little thing here and a little thing and ⁓ Larry The Sociologist: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It it it's really quite beautiful and it's spiritual is how I feel. I mean, as a theologian, I'm like, ⁓ you mean when you you show up and and I don't know. I'm I'm again kinda saying this as a theologian. I don't know if humans are altruistic. I I don't know if we are purely good. But I also don't care if the outcome is that you're commun if like in a lot of ways, I'm like, I don't like it's fine, just get it done. And ⁓ and so Larry The Sociologist: I I heard someone say, I'm not entirely sure if people would take advantage of a you know, for th they were given the example of universal healthcare. I'm not sure if when I pay taxes and pay into that system, if somebody would take advantage of it. But I do know that, you know, a single mother of three can get an MRI and not work like who cares if ⁓ some people are taking advantage. I mean, sure, but the other side of that is the the benefit. So I I definitely agree with that. I mean it doesn't matter if we're altruistic or not, which I mean is up for debate always. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Yeah. It it's a spinning guy. Yeah. But it's it is. Like I was just like I'm I'm done worrying if I'm and even like thinking like about how, you know, so much of right action. Like you just you just go do do do the right thing right in front of you. ⁓ and then release your ego from it. Or like and and again, i it all comes back to sociology too, because We're we're so gr like these institutions with their stability, thankful for them, have a lot of problems with them as well. ⁓ but they they give us a sense they ⁓ they ground us, ⁓ they also hold us back. and and I see that too, even with us as people. Like we we ⁓ clutch on and attach ourselves really hard to identities and to roles and titles and ⁓ a lot of that is because of capitalism and and putting our value on on our worth, on our productivity. Can you talk about work, labor, productivity, and how that relates ⁓ to masculinity as well? Larry The Sociologist: Work. Mm-hmm. ⁓ certainly. ⁓ certainly. Yeah, that you know, this is the biggest point of contention. you know, the biggest like no no when I talk to my loved ones about like masculinity is men it there there is an ingrained belief that men are loved for what they can provide, you know, and Every time I show how that is incorrect. Now, maybe to people that are transactional, certainly, like, but not to people in your life that love you. You're valuable because you're you, because you're alive and you're a a member of society and community. That has been the biggest aspect, the the biggest like ⁓ you know, just kind of jarring glitch point for a lot of a lot of my ⁓ male friends and male loved ones because you know That I think is the hardest ⁓ decoupling, especially when we exist in a society that rewards that kind of ⁓ thinking and rewards the behavior that is a result of that kind of thinking. The you know, my output is all that matters. I don't y it doesn't matter how it doesn't matter how I look, it doesn't matter how I treat people, d you know, it it a lot of my loved ones believe that ⁓ y s something like cheating in in in in interpersonal relationships. Cheating on your partner is all right so long as you make enough money to cover their needs and, you know, it it's all good. You know, ideas like that that are stemmed from your value being set in ⁓ what you can provide and what you can do with your labor or with your resources or or or just what have you as a man. ⁓ yeah that that that that's been a tough one. Especially in in those conversations, but the way that I've worked through it with them and as well as worked through it within myself is really just understanding all of the ways in which that is not true. ⁓ to specifically starting with your loved ones. I mean if if you have people in your life that do not care about you beyond what you can provide, you know, that that is indicative of maybe reevaluating that relationship. But if you go to your parents, or if you go to your siblings, or if you go to your grandparents or or anybody in your beloved circle, maybe those people are different for for different people. ⁓ I I guarantee you you can name five things that they love about you and five things that they have noticed in you that are completely divorced from the type of work you do, completely divorced from whether or not you're employed, ⁓ completely divorced from whatever resources you provide to them specifically. They're the relationships that are in my opinion valuable are the ones that are predicated on everything but what we do for work, what we can provide for each other. The kind of transactional relationships ⁓ are not long lasting. And that's usually how you can tell that those are transactional relationships. ⁓ but pointing out the starting with the loved ones, pointing out the fact that that is not correct for all settings that it might be correct at work in a system that prioritizes profit over over your humanity. Yes, absolutely. It that in that case, sure. At work, you are more valuable as a laborer than you are as a person. But that is not the only well, two two butts. But one, that's a result of that system. That's not human nature. And two, ⁓ that is only in that system. That's not when it comes to interpersonal relationships. That's not when it comes to love. That's not when it comes to your children. That's not when it comes to anything. I mean, y anything at all. You're if you are a father ⁓ and you're in your children's lives, I guarantee you they don't love you because you feed them. They're not puppies. They they love you because they know who you are and you're a part of them. I mean, given the fact that they love you. That's fatherhood is an entire different ⁓ aspect of this, but for me, being able to identify and point out ways in which that is that ⁓ your output being your value is decoupled from reality has really been ⁓ good for me to have these conversations and really good for me to examine myself, ⁓ just Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Larry The Sociologist: with my relationships and with who I am i with regard to masculinity. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And and what I'm hearing too, I thank you. That was so beautifully worded. my well, and and going back to these relationships of the beloved, these inner circle, these non-productivity relationships. ⁓ what does it look like for men to better develop non-productivity relationships? Because when I hear you say these things, the first thing I think of is like, I bet he talks to his mom a lot, which is great. We love that relationship, but that Larry The Sociologist: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Men don't have a lot. Like ⁓ that's that in and so on the women's side of it, we wind up getting men that are like, I love that you have a relationship with your mom, but do you talk to other guy like what what does it look like to have male friendships? and ⁓ and and how can and what is what does it look like in your your past few years of kind of getting past that threshold of vulnerability with men, particularly in the line of research and work you do? Larry The Sociologist: Hmm. Right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: And I'm not saying you're a counselor or a therapist, but how do we begin to to to sort of say, Hey, ⁓ I don't know, what is that what does that look like for men to develop better relationships with one another? Larry The Sociologist: Hm. Right, right. ⁓ well, you are correct in that I'm not a counselor. But I am a man. ⁓ and and I I am a ⁓ cisgender heterosexual male. So I, you know, straight guy. ⁓ and you know, I'm not gonna lie to you, it's it's been challenging. It has been challenging. ⁓ and but ⁓ to answer your question just immediately, the way that I have always done it is practice, and the way that I've always encouraged. And my loved ones to do it. It's just practice. Like you don't have to start with, here's the most devastating thing that's ever happened to me. You know, that that vulnerability is not does not have to be the starting point. You could just start. ⁓ I I love having my friends And they hate it. But I I love that they hate it because it's like a bullying bullying them into identifying their feelings. ⁓ but I make them say I feel statements. And I I will just randomly, you know, when we're talking on the phone or when we're texting, How are you feeling today? Like genuinely, and if if they say just good. with that as the end, then I I then I say, nah, nah, that that's not good enough. T give me an I feel statement. And of course they hate it, but after they do it, they appreciate the fact that they did. Starting with small little steps, like I feel statements or acknowledging ⁓ when feelings arise and and being able to like sit with them. Those little, little and Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Larry The Sociologist: I I mean little feelings. I don't mean like ⁓ complicated feelings like jealousy or you know, yeah, just very, very little feelings. Being able to like sit with them and be like examining yourself. Why do I feel this right now? What is what am I learning from this? What can I take from this? What do I feel? Just being able to identify and name it, that is big. And for the more advanced ones, you know, I I I do I Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ yeah. Hmm. Larry The Sociologist: practice affirmations. You know, I've participated and led drumming circles with men. Like there are, but that's that's I would say that's more chapter 40. And for most men, I need them to get you just just chapter one, just acknowledging and being able to speak in I feel statements. That has always, always worked for me and my loved ones. And I would advocate that for everybody. But I I will not lie to you, it has been challenging. You know, there there are Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right, right. Larry The Sociologist: People that are ⁓ so heavily propagandized, they believe that that these things are, you know, this is what God said, or this is how nature is, or this is even when you like, hey, you know, buddy, just to let you know, you know, from your point of reference, this is what the Bible says, or from your point of reference, this is what biology says. It's you know showing them that even contradicting their beliefs. correctly, like just showing them that they're incorrect. Sometimes the identity protective cognition kicks in and their you know, their identity being attached to their ideas of manhood it causes an immediate reac no, I r I hate you know, it causes an immediate reaction. So that has been unfortunately the most common ⁓ issue that I've run into with building relationships with other men. but I will say it's about a Sixty forty relationship, like maybe six out of ten guys will react that way. But four of them, they'd be like, Man, that's that's fantastic. I I've been waiting on somebody to talk about these things with. ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Larry The Sociologist: glad at the opportunity to be able to express their emotions and acknowledge their emotions. And it's like a little, a little crack in the wall of toxic masculinity. And I just keep putting little cracks until the entire thing crumbles. And then they're with me in a drumming circle. It's just these little cracks that that have to keep going. But it is, ⁓ it is challenging. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Well, and it's challenging to be like like like you. You're you're a leader, you're like a a a frontier pioneer person, you're trying to do this, a creator you're putting like and ⁓ and like you said, the the numbers aren't good. These you don't do this for the numbers, you know what I mean? It's like people trying to to help in rehabs. You're like the the stats are not good. ⁓ but we do that because we're here to literally change lives in communities when it works. Cause it does. Like those four men you talked about. Larry The Sociologist: Ha ha. Leigh/@followtheleighder: that that will impact their workplace, it'll w impact their family. It will have waves. It's and it sucks that our brain like stays on the sixty percent where like it wasn't all of them though. And it's like, doesn't matter. Like considering before you got in there, it was zero. Now we're at four. Like we'll take it. and Larry The Sociologist: Yeah. And and and honestly, I think the even with the sixty percent, sometimes I I I think that for lack of a better phrase, my sister always says the trash took itself out. And I guess I'll steal that phrase from her. I don't believe that the sixty percent of men that do that are all trash necessarily, but I do believe that we might have been incompatible in ways that were insurmountable. You know, maybe they are not interested in ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Is it? No, I Larry The Sociologist: I don't know, learning about things. Maybe they are more closed minded than I am. And that would have inevitably led us to a bad outcome anyway. You know, so I I don't necessarily look at and these are sixty percent of people, you know, I I mean from a perspective of like ten guys that I actually like having conversations with and would like to build a friendship with, and then I I talk to them. you know, so it's it's not like Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, right, right. Larry The Sociologist: They're random necessarily. So it it is ⁓ to a certain degree, like, ⁓ man, I thought you were cool. Like, you know, like a heartbreak or a letdown in that degree. But ⁓ I will say the forty percent that actually engage and are are open minded about understanding their emotions and who they are in society, the four that forty percent makes up for well beyond the sixty that didn't care. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I know. Isn't that funny? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then that's then that's true too. I one thing with my military background and also just studying ⁓ trauma ministry, trauma recovery, trauma theology, is what you're saying, that first step that you're talking about, just getting them to say, I feel blank, is ac very well documented in and tr in at least the trauma side of it. And I'm not here to say that all men have experienced trauma, but we we see patterns. Larry The Sociologist: Mm. Mm. Right, right. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ of where people literally cannot give language to their emotions. Like it like the brain disconnect, they can't do it, and and that's a big thing of why other modalities have had to to come out in therapeutic work, such as art therapy and just other ways until people can't like because just feelings are complex, like you were saying. But I think what you're saying, just like that language and feelings of being able to self-identify with something small. Larry The Sociologist: Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Will then also give you the confidence and just the perspective to be like, I can also name things. Like there's a a a control aspect to what you're saying. ⁓ that I think it's funny people think about, ⁓ feelings, once you, once you acknowledge your feelings, you'll become hysteric or you'll just jerk, you know, there's all these connotations with feelings. Right. Right. Right. But it is weird. It's weird that you'll become more feminine and maybe you become more restrained, but like that restrain. Larry The Sociologist: Well they they they say they say feminine. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: gives you so much more space and freedom. Like it's so backwards and to what you think it will be. Like, ⁓ kind of in the same way of like, what do you mean Jesus isn't this like masculine fit UFC soldier? Like and he's actually like super cool with like the marginalized and like likes to spend time alone in a garden. Like so it's just Larry The Sociologist: Absolutely. Yeah. But my my my ⁓ one of my buddies, he ⁓ his and and this was, you know, just us being kids and I think we were like thirteen. He told me his idea of Jesus was a jacked superhero wearing an America cape with an eagle on his chest. And even even at thirteen, I said, My brother, you have some work to do. Like I was thirteen years old and I still I was like, That that didn't sound you know, but the ideas that we create, you know, based off our socialization and, you know, sometimes religious upbringing are they they can be yeah, real interesting. It's a big world out here. Big world. Leigh/@followtheleighder: It is a big yeah. ⁓ and and that actually so I recently ⁓ went on a humanitarian trip with other pastors and theologians from across the political spectrum. There were 10 of us. We went to the Philippines and because we were all pastors, leaders, theologians, like we d we certainly had like the the ego, none of it n nothing ever got too tense. Everything was conversationable. ⁓ but ⁓ Larry The Sociologist: ⁓ wow. That's good. Leigh/@followtheleighder: But it was really cool to see just different perspectives come out. We had a more con we had a very conservative, ⁓ he was Jamaican born, immigrant, joined ⁓ abject poverty from from Jamaica, joined the military for citizenship, used it for benefits for college, went to seminary, and is now a pastor in Maryland for a black conservative church. And he and in his eyes, he has lived the American dream. Larry The Sociologist: Mm-hmm. ⁓ wow. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Like he like America could do no wrong. And that was really the kind of stance he brought. And of course, we had Gen Z leftists on we had like everybody, like, and ⁓ it was wild to watch him specifically. One of the things ⁓ that we we talked about was was was women in poverty in in that situation. And he felt he really like knew how to take care of women in poverty with his theology. And Larry The Sociologist: Ha ha. Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: One of the things we talked about was like how ideologies to survive often don't look consistent. Like in order to survive, you ⁓ it may not look like following ⁓ Christianity perfectly or whatever that means to you, or you know, just whatever that looks like. Morals get gray when when you've got survival on the table. And and that's also ⁓ a a thing that I would kind of Larry The Sociologist: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Tie into this masculinity, this religion, sort of like, what does your relationship look like now? More with women, women's healthcare, just women's empowerment now that you have found an embrace and kind of sounds like you've strengthened yourself. Like in and sort of softening and feminizing yourself, you also got really strong and grounded. Like you're and ⁓ and so what is Larry The Sociologist: Mm-hmm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: What does that look like now to be to have relationships with with women? Larry The Sociologist: Well, ⁓ I I I will a hundred percent ag agree firstly that it I am I feel much more strengthened, ⁓ mm not only by way of emotional intelligence, but ⁓ also by way of like just mental fortitude, like understanding that different walks of life have different perspectives and I don't have to you know, I'm nobody's savior or I don't have to change any opinions. I don't have to be the one, you know, doing all that. ⁓ That has all come as a result of this journey of deconstruction. and it and it has yield yielded fantastic results, you know. I I I I grew up with four sisters. So inherent like right off the bat, it w I was never gonna be like, you know, Andrew Tate. Like it was impossible. ⁓ but ⁓ I I did have Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Larry The Sociologist: You know, I have beautiful relationships. I'm I'm grateful for beautiful relationships with my sisters and parents. ⁓ but I I I did have a more transactional relationship with women as a before, you know, making this like going through this deconstruction process. ⁓ and after I found relationships with women to be not only more fulfilling than before, ⁓ but also I had been upset with s how much I had lost, how much I had missed out on previously had I done this deconstruction work earlier. I a a big part of the work that I I did for myself was not making femininity something that's looked at as weak or or softness ⁓ you know ⁓ softness or gentleness be looked at as weak. That that was like a big point for me to to to get there. And after I did, after I was able to humanize women to have women, I have always had women that I looked up to and and and things like that, but I always kind of separated them. Like, yeah, that's a woman, but she's like, but that's Angela Davis. You know, I always like separated, based on however excellent I perceive them to be. But in not doing that, I believe I have benefited more because now having genuine ⁓ platonic relationships with women has and I don't want to make it ⁓ selfish perspective, but that had by itself has ⁓ allowed me to be in rooms that I would not have been otherwise. That has allowed me perspectives that I would not have been privy to otherwise. That has allowed me access to education and different learning models of education that I otherwise wouldn't have have known. So it has yielded both tangible benefits for me. as well as just a a deeper understanding of the human network that I have and that exists in the world. ⁓ being able to engage with black women's art forms, ⁓ it which is something that that was a specific goal for this year. I I'm reading books well, Tanahasi Kodes was the only book that I read that was not by black women, but I am trying to read books a hundred percent by ⁓ women this year just to have a more rounded perspective ⁓ on top of the deconstructing that I had already done. ⁓ but both interpersonally with platonic relationships with romantic relationships with relationships in my family ⁓ with you know just with relation to random women that I meet on the street. Not only is there not that initial, you know, before I felt like a I don't know I I don't want to say attention, but like I had to I had to work to work to get to a place where I felt like we were even or or things were fair or, you know, I wasn't starting from a negative in her perspective. ⁓ that idea I now I don't even it doesn't even bother me. You know, that that idea doesn't even occur to me. ⁓ because treating people, treating everyone just like a human being not only has yielded me the tangible benefits of whatever those relationships were, but they've also helped deepen my understanding of myself. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Right. Larry The Sociologist: and deepen my understanding of ⁓ how many of us also have work to do, like the deconstructed to do how would the world look if more people seen women as human beings, ⁓ complete human beings, just the same as they do as men. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Hm. ⁓ thank you. That that's you you mentioned earlier this you're not needing to save. And I've been thinking about specifically like ⁓ the derogatory word for it is captain to save a hoe, where it's these men that just like want to save women so badly. And it all like and we see and that Larry The Sociologist: Ha ha. Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: There it it always comes from mess. I er there's always just a mess comes from it because you can't save these women, ⁓ can't save other people. A lot of people until they're ready to be saved, whatever that means, aren't they don't and there's a lot of self avoidance when you're trying to save other people. There is a lot, there is it's a discomfort, it's like a projection of vulnerability. I've got to save this person. There's a lot of objectifying. Larry The Sociologist: Save Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: A lot of self-objectifying. And then like I said, ⁓ that self-avoidance, like to me, and ⁓ and we can do the women, the healer, the toxic healer all day. And I and and that is a real thing, the toxic feminine healer that likes to keep men sick too. ⁓ but like the or just needs just needs that, but like also in the the the seva, the captain's seva. Larry The Sociologist: Certainly. Leigh/@followtheleighder: I gotta find a different word. Sorry people if that's offensive. Yeah, I don't know. I ⁓ like ⁓ but like there's again, that self avoidance, a lot of it has to do or what I can assume it has to do with the father of of like a lot of like if I can just keep showing people that I'm saving these women and children and get the peasants to clap for me, then I don't have to deal with to actually look at the castle. Like I can just be out here and Larry The Sociologist: I I I I j ⁓ you know what? It sucks because I genuinely don't know another term. Like I don't know another term. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ because the castle is scar and and whatever it looks like to become that man. And and really when I hear your story and other men's stories, is that when men stop being the captain Sabah ho and they're like, Okay, well let's look at the castle. Let's deal with this. What does it mean to be quote unquote king? King doesn't mean tyrant, king doesn't mean emperor. Larry The Sociologist: Yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: ⁓ it's standing in your masculine power. It's taking care of your ho your a fo affairs. But again, not in this necessarily hierarchical way as much as it we're speaking an allegory at this point, guys. We've we've but it's there is this ⁓ Larry The Sociologist: Course, yeah. Leigh/@followtheleighder: You are really embodying that when it comes time for a man to to step into his power, it doesn't have to look like tyranny. It doesn't have to look like dominance. It doesn't have to look like hypermasculinity that needs other people to submit to it in order to feel masculine. and and that's a really powerful thing to to bear witness. ⁓ have you found Larry The Sociologist: Mm-hmm. Hm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: This the subjectifying, like that, that took real, real work to humanize yourself and ⁓ and to realize, yeah, took a while, took world world work because what you were essentially doing was putting all that quote save your energy into yourself and saving saving yourself with your community and and finding that. ⁓ are there I know that we're Larry The Sociologist: Yeah. Mm. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Kind of getting close on time here. Can you share with men ⁓ or others who are listening how what kind of books and resources you used? ⁓ and even like practices. Were you journaling? Were you meditating, exercising? What did it look like? Were were you still enjoying sports if sports was your thing? And beer and cigars? Like, did it what how did manhood change and not change based on their resources and practices? Or ⁓ sorry, that's not the question. The question is what resources and practices helped evolve your masculinity? Yeah. Larry The Sociologist: ⁓ okay. Yeah. Well that first of all, that's a fantastic question. And lucky for you, I am a dork. I have I I nobody tells me to do these things, but I self-imposed ⁓ book reports on myself. I I read books and then I, you know, kind of like write down reflections, thoughts, like summarizations, all of those things. And I I have plenty. So one of them that that really helped me and one that I really, really took a lot from a as I ⁓ spoke about earlier is the will to change by bell hooks. ⁓ now this this was really my entry level point. and ⁓ the the the key takeaways from this were that the patriarchy patriarchy hurts men too. Love is an action, not a feeling and ⁓ feminism is for men. Those three key points ⁓ kind of really just molded things for me. And from this book, I I have I took practices away from this book. I now I practice daily affirmations. ⁓ it ⁓ it in this is in the mirror in the morning when I'm ⁓ you know brushing my teeth and and getting ready. You know, affirmations, I'll share three with you because some of them are you know very personal to me. ⁓ my vulnerability is my strength. That's one. I am worthy of love just as I am, not for what I do. And my value is not measured by my productivity. Those three were the ones that I started with. I've added more as as time go goes on, but those three are ones that I started with. And it might sound remedial or silly or childish or whatever to the people that hear this for the first time. But I mean, this is like backed with data and science. You can build dendrites in your brain from just speaking, like from saying positive things to yourself, pouring into yourself. ⁓ that that and I did not know that this was real until I did it for a week. And I I felt measurably better ⁓ not only within myself but within me operating in the world. Like I had a different a bit of a different perspective. I had a a a lot of empathy for for people that were still focusing on their productivity being their value Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yes. Larry The Sociologist: A lot of empathy for people not having a place to be vulnerable. You know, that it just it did a whole bunch for me with these daily affirmations. Also, meditation is is a practice that I do at least once a month. ⁓ it's not nothing crazy. I'm not a Zen master. Maybe five to ten minutes ⁓ a month. And, you know, building to like I I've gone to as much as like twenty minutes before, which was like, ⁓ like whoa. It was like a big step. ⁓ but like doing things like Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Larry The Sociologist: breath awareness, which is the ⁓ trains your focus and your calm, doing things like a body scan to just reconnect your bind your mind to your body. ⁓ and also sitting with your emotions. I cannot underestim overestimate how important that is. Like sitting with emotions at a time, you don't even have to meditate. Just kinda sit there for a little bit and and sit with the feelings that that you're having. That that really Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Larry The Sociologist: was a practice that helped helped me. I also spoke of the drumming circles ⁓ and ⁓ men's circle. So this one I I I was a part of, I had the privilege to be a part of in ⁓ both Dallas and California. ⁓ and this is building intentional embodied community with other men that are committed to vulnerability, deep listening and healing. ⁓ and these are are some of the practices that I adopted Along I and I want to make this point very clear. Alongside the things that I was already doing, I love football. I will ⁓ flag football is what I play now since I I graduated college and I like my joints. So I play flag football now. ⁓ but I I love it. I still I will play until I can't play anymore. I love just sports in general, basketball, all of it. ⁓ that never changed for me. ⁓ my, you know, beside reading hobbies of like Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah, right. Larry The Sociologist: I've a P had a PS5, it just burnt out. Playing the game, ⁓ doing all the guy hobbies, you don't have to like sacrifice things that you like, ⁓ to be a, you know, more vulnerable person or a or a man that that deconstructs his masculine. You don't you don't to sacrifice anything. As a matter of fact, all of these things you gain ⁓ because you don't have the stress of the you know producing value. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Larry The Sociologist: I'm sorry, producing something productivity like resource wise or or any other aspect to give you value. You already have the value when you wake up. You already have the value embedded in you. ⁓ so it's not you don't have to like take anything away that would be considered manly unless you consider dominance to be manly, in which you have other work to do. ⁓ you know, like taking over somebody or dominating over somebody. If that's the only way that That is the only way that some people feel like a man. And that is a it's a bit of a different starting point, but it still these practices would help. but though those are practices that I do, I I it's important. Also, I read, let's see here. Not the divide. The power of now by Eckhart Tole. That i this is also a book that really helped me because ⁓ Leigh/@followtheleighder: Okay. Larry The Sociologist: Deconstructing masculinity and detaching from these harmful ideas, at least in my opinion, harmful ideas of what a man is and what masculine is, ⁓ that had to come with a replacement for those things. That had to come with ⁓ a replacement of an appreciation for something other than my work as value, for something other than ⁓ competition as good or competition as, you know, and if if you can't replace it with collaboration or if you can't repla replace it with with things like that, you know. ⁓ the short practical daily ritual that well not daily, but this one I do probably every couple months, ⁓ is the ⁓ feeling the body connectedness, so feeling my body and the label thoughts. So when my mind wanders or in grief or memories or whatever I'm dealing with, silently say thinking and return to my breathing. No, no judgment. of the thoughts, just redirection. ⁓ so the power of now and the will to change, I would say are two of the most ⁓ important books that that were for my deconstruction and the practices that I got from them, along with not having to sacrifice all I don't you know, I don't have to shave my beard off, I don't have to stop working out, I don't have to stop going to the gym or playing football. You know, these things complement my being, my emotional health and my mental health so well. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Larry The Sociologist: I I can't imagine life without them now. I don't want to imagine a life without them. Not for me. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Amen. Well, this has been absolutely amazing. Can you please, like you have given us so much today, can you share with us how folks can follow you or learn more or continue ⁓ to to just gain so much knowledge from from you, old wise teacher. Thank you. Larry The Sociologist: I really appreciate that. And I really appreciate you having me. This this has has really been phenomenal. ⁓ yes, I am all over every the only thing I don't have is threads and Twitter. But other than that, you know, Blue Sky, Substack, Instagram, TikTok, everywhere else, Facebook, ⁓ I am Larry the Sociologist. So you can find me by that that that same name. ⁓ you know, I I encourage and ⁓ would appreciate all forms of engagement, all form have a conversation with me. It's okay if you disagree. I'm not, you know, ⁓ you I mean not not about facts, hopefully, but ⁓ you know, we all have opinions and those opinions might not be aligned sometimes. Perfectly okay. ⁓ but you know, I I would very much appreciate all engagement, appreciation, not appreciation, whatever. Larry the sociologist on all platforms. Leigh/@followtheleighder: Yeah. Larry the sociologist. Well, thank you so much, Larry. Folks, let me know what y'all thought of this conversation down in the comments. Y'all know the drill. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe. This has been another episode of Follow the Leader. I'm your host, Leigh Larson, and until next time, see ya.