Latest / WoT Spoilers / A Reunion & Working Leather - Towers of Midnight chapter 45-46 - EP574

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A Reunion & Working Leather - Towers of Midnight chapter 45-46 - EP574 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. Yeah, so
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: we're here today to deal with a lot of what
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: was the apartmanteau I just made truck Canna, Dread.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Can dred and for Yeah, the royal family of Camelin
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: slash Kyrienne.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Mostly of Camlin though, because we got all the Galot
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: up in that.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: I would say a lot is more Kyrienne and than
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: Elene is because his father, his father was one hundred
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: percent Kyrie.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess Glad probably got a chance to actually
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: go back to his dad's estates in Kyrean before he,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: you know, died. Elene and Godwin really young, but go
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Lot was older.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Glad was old enough. Glad is old to be really
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: pissed at Tom. That's all I'm saying. If he ever
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: found out about the truth.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, that.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Would be a fun face off. But Tom versus a gallaude,
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: you killed my father. He deserved to die, boy, he
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: was going to kill your mother. Get wise, Like I can,
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I can love that, love that face off.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: That would be really funny. And then also after we
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: get through all the Andor and tra Candy stuff, then
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: we go over to a different location in Andor and
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: do Andrel's.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Introduction Welcome to the world, Andral.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Andrel gets born in this episode. He technically existed before,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: but he becomes the character he will be right Brandon
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: inhabits him in this chapter working Leather.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: He's been a background ashaman and a couple other chapters,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: so the name wasn't invented, but the character was picked
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: up from obscurity and created whole cloth or whole leather,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: ha ha.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Hah, yeah exactly. But yeah, that's this chapter that we're
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: going to be doing today once we get through the
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: trick Andy's stuff.
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: Which I have such mixed feelings on because I really
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: do think Androl is a really good character. Like I
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: think it's Brandon's writing at its best. It's just from
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: another book.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he should have channelized this energy a bit
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: more into fleshing out logan and that would have just
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: made way more narrative cohesive sense than Yeah, just inserting
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: this guy from a totally different book series, who is awesome.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: It's there's nothing wrong with Andrel, aside from the part
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: where he's anachronistic to everything.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: But oh my god, reading that chapter as a Stormlite
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: Archive chapter, I'm like, oh, Yeah, this is just Bridge four.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: This is just absolutely one hundred percent what was going
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: on that the guy's making stew he's working on is
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: a lot like if it's just it's one hundred percent
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: just him pre writing a Bridge four chapter and inserting
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: it in and taking an idea that he was already
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: going to use in Stormlight Archive and using it kind
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: of re repurposing it here like Disney purpose their animation.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: It's just reskinned.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I feel like that's exactly what turned
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: me off of Stormlight Archive was I turned on Stormlight
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Archive and it was just this weird. It was so
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: familiar and yet in a different world. It completely put
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: me off. And you're right, it's because this stuff, this
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: andrel stuff that is really cool and fun, despite my
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: complaints about it not being logane, it's I identify it
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: as we have time, because that's the order I read
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: stuff in, and it's just like, no, I don't want
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: to read you doing that again. I've already read you
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: doing that and it was fine the first time.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: And that's why I don't mind him reading it in
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: his own stuff, writing it in his own stuff. I
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: don't mind reading it when i'm reading.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just my bias for me when I got
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: to it, But I think that's part of what bounced
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: me off of it is I was just like, no, no, no,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: I've already seen you do this. I've done it once,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you, goodbye.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Did you want to talk about chapter forty five a reunion?
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Well, first I want to mourn what just happened to
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: Doctor Pants's book. It's just like completely split all the way.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Good. Those old school tour books, man, they were
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: they weren't designed for keeping. They were designed for reading
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: and discarding unfortunately. And people are like, oh, I had
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: this book for twenty years or thirty years and it's
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: falling apart, and like, yeah, yeah, mass produced paperbacks, they're
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: not really. You know, people will talk about planted obsolescence,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: and man, these books as much plant obs lescence as
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: they just needed to last through a couple of readings. Right,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: You'd read them a couple of times, you loaned your friends,
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: and most of them said on the shelf and never
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: got touched again because they were crap.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well a moment of silence for that.
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: But then those of us read our Wheel of Time
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: books over and over and over and over again until
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: they did that.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: It's a beautiful site, it's a battle scar, it's a
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: sign of honor much gee. But yeah, I suppose I
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: should read us into chapter forty five, a reunion, and
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: our symbol is the line of Andor, because this is
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: the tricona dread chapter of the day dundun Don. Elaine
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: woke in her bed, bleary eyed. Agwaine, she said, disoriented
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: what the last memories of the dream were dissolving the
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: honey consumed by warm tea. But Agwaine's words remained firm
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: in Elaine's mind. The serpent has fallen, Agwaine had sent.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Your brother's return was timely. Elaine sat up, feeling a
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: surge of relief. She had spent the entire night trying
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: to channel enough to make her dream to her on
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: real work, to no avail when she found out that
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Brigida had turned away Gawain. While Elaine sat inside, furious
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: but unable to attend the meeting with Agwaine, she'd been livid. Well,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Massana had been defeated, it seemed, And what was that
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: about her brother? She smiled. Perhaps he and Agwaine had
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: worked out their problems. That's it. That's all.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very simple like I've got some Newsmgwayne.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Seems like things are going well with her brother. Little
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: does she know it's a toxic ass relationship. But yeah,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: very normal day for her in and or it feels
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: like and.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: Also just the power of dream communication, right, like, here's
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: an instant update from the horse's mouth. We've been doing
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: this for books and books, but now it's really coming
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: in clutch because she does not have time to go
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: running around getting into the world of dreams and stuff
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: with the pregnancy and the queening, and it's like, now,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: just drop a memo in her dream inbox.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: She still needs to be able to channel to get
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: into the world of dreams, and she can't do that
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: consistently while pregnant.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: And yeah, next week, get the note that it's been
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: a week since the testing of the dragons, and we
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: get kind of a long explanation for how that process
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: has been percolating in the background, which is to say
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: rapidly right, right, So.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: They're putting all the bell fonders they have working on
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: at twenty four to seven.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's stashing a bunch of them in a secret
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: location while one set gets used for practice because you know,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: military security, it makes sense to not let those all
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: be out there available.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: And in the last books that actually becomes kind of
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: a major thing is like where are the dragons? Where
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: are they hiding them? How are they using them? Like
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: it's a very important part of the Last Battle is
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: the mystery around the dragons, it feels like, and so this,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: this feels like the beginning of that little subplot.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, smart move on her and her generals as part.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: And then we check in with the morning midwife pregnancy
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: check in routine, where we get confirmation that the twins
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: are not just a figment of her imagination and men's viewing.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: They are heartbeat detectable and.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: They like, I don't know how you know, Oh, I
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: don't know the magic.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: That they do all the time, Like, yeah, maybe the
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: prophecy chick.
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. No, I guess people still don't
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: believe it, even though it's like, I mean, she always
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: complains it's always really annoying because no one really believes her,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: I think Melfan's just far enough away from the situation
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: that she's hearing it about it as rumors and she's
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: just like I believe what I see. I'm a doctor.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: You know. There's this whole thing about how mel Fan's
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: and overbearing with Elane and making her feel claustrophobic. And
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: you know, before she was a godsend because she made
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: food good, but now the fact that she wants to
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: insist on bed rest makes her terrible tyrant, and I
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: just a little a little like, Elaine, make up your mind,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: is this doctor helpful or not well?
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Because she's doing the right things for Elaine to keep
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: her healthy, and sometimes Elaine agrees with those things, like
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: eating good food, and sometimes it pisses Lane off, like
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: bed rest when she needs bed rest.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, listen to your doctor, Elaine.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I think, I think she's doing the
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: right thing for her pretty much all the time for
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: the pregnancy, and that was, you know, helpful for Lane
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: in some instances and annoying in others.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And Mulfane is like sleeping in the next room,
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: like she is not going to let this go. She's
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: very dedicated to the Queen's health.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: There's no privacy. Then we get a little bit of
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: like the spy Master Master Nori shows up dialing and
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: this is sort of doing their whole intelligence briefing morning briefing. Right,
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: didn't Master Norri never look in his folder in his papers,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: He carried them, but he never actually opened them up.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: And that was kind of part of his personality. Or
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: am I thinking of a different spymaster.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: No, that's him. That's him. When he pulls a sheet
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: of paper out, Elaine thinks like trumpets should have sounded like.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: She thought it was a huge I think that was
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: when it was an example of it was either the
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: example of that one guy's handwriting or it's Matt's letter.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: Either way, those are the two times that he actually
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: produces a paper for her to look at, and she
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: thinks it's very impressive.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: And yet here he sits down, he opens up his
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: folder and begin arranging papers on the tall, narrow table
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: beside her chair, like he's ranging papers for her to
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: look at, like what, he would never do that.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: That is an inconsistency. I didn't even that, didn't even
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: ping on my radar. But you're totally right, that's wildly inconsistent.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just a masterinary like what, No, that's a man
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: who never shows off his papers. He always has them
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: just in case. But the information's always in his head.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, h that's weird. I guess sometimes when you're talking
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: about big enough numbers, you need your spreadsheets on hand
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: as a reference. But I thought he was more autistic
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: than that.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I just died. And if the numbers are
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: complicated enough that she needs to look at them, it's
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: like they're either they're simple enough that he either has
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: them in their head or too complicated for her right,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Like there's no in between.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know whatever. The next thing that twigged
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: on my radar was when she's talking about moving some
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: of the Red some of the Little Band soldiers into
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: her push for Kyrie in and she thinks that she's
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: or what is it, She's ordered nor to send tom
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Onnes a writ with her steal authorizing the soldiers to
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: lend aid restoring order. That was, of course nonsense. No
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: order needed to be restored. But if Elaine was ever
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: going to move for a political advantage, then she's got
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: a stock positioning people around. And I just think that's
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: what we're thinking about.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: She's trying to take over to the country. That's a
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: big part of what her next ambition is. And you know,
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: there's a little bit of her just walking in, being
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: like I am the queen now, and everyone goes, okay,
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: but we see the seeds of it here, right, she
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: gives they're afraid that they're going to be subsumed. The
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: Kyrieenes are going to be subsumed. They're going to be
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: taken over by and Or. Right, and so what she
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: realizes is the seeds of the solution are in this paragraph.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: Once the Arwin, Sarand and marine estates have been among
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: the most productive and extensive in and Or, and now
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: they were destitute, their coffers dry. What she's going to
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: do essentially is give lands in and Or two, she says. Later,
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: she says, figure out who the most influential nobles are,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: who are most likely to profit, and who are working
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: against me. Well, what she does, she figures out who
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: her enemies are in Kyrieenne and gives them giant estates
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: that she took from her enemies and Or, And all
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, the people who are working against her
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: are like, oh, no, okay, we can be wealthy in
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: two countries. That's better than being wealthy in one country.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Step right up, you know, And so that and it's
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: all actually built very well and for and foreshadowed very
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: well in this couple of paragraphs where you see the
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: seeds of the solution and the presentation of the problem
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: all at once.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's some good for DJSS. But I just think
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: it's also interesting that you want to establish order somewhere,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: then you can just claim if you want to establish
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: your order somewhere, you can claim you're restoring order in
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: general and just move your people in and be like
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: it's mine now.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't think Jordan could have ever
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: pulled that from any real world example. I've never seen
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: that anything like that in the real world. Nothing.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: There's definitely no art informing life here. No, no, we can't.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: We can't take any lessons from this. And look, just
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: because Elaine is doing a good job because she's being
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: written by a guy who's actually pro monarchy, doesn't mean
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: that the lessons can't also apply to bad people that
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: we don't agree with.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, at this point, watch you want our democracy
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: is doing. I might be pro monarchy as.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Well if it's a laige for care. Fine, But yeah,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: sometimes I see Jordan's say this is good, and I'm like,
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: I think you're right. About the mechanics of what's happening.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: It's just your value judgment at the end.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I disagree with you, Yeah, but I mean what she's
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: making a point of here is that uniting and becoming
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: more powerful and bigger is seems to be the trend.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: You have the sean Chan Empire, you have you know,
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: the border lands who are together kind of as one,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and you have all these lands united under the dragon.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: And she's like, really like the bigger to deal with
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: each other. We need to make friends, we need bigger alliances,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: and like, right now, her best way of doing that
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: is by becoming queen of two different countries, because right
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: now that other country is not being held by anyone
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: with any real power, and so you can't make an
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: alliance that way.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: And it totally makes sense in this circumstance for sure.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: It's just an insurance mechanic.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: The false flag, Yeah, moving some soldiers end up to
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: help with the peace.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: It's like, um, no, just claiming that you're restoring order
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: that doesn't need restored, so that way you can put
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: your uniforms into a place that didn't need them.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: In fairness, they are they were all native. Most of
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: them are native born coming back. So there is a
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: little bit of that where you can be like, I'm
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: sending you know, if we had the American troops that
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: went off to work for, you know, Japan for some reason,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: then Japan is like, I'm sending in troops to help
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: you guys out, and they're your troops, we'd be like, Okay, cool,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: it's better than sending in like like a Japanese invasion.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, I guess I don't know. It's just as
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: the ice doing the airport thing is kind of the
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: uppermost news item today, it just seemed weirdly parallel.
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, back to the book, I don't know how
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: to talk about the real world anymore.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: It's such a parody of what reality should be that
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I don't even know how to. Like saying it's absurd
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: and saying it sucks and saying it's stupid feels so ineffective.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Gena size bad hot take apparently right right.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm just like, what, how do I even
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: what is there to even argue with because I'm just
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: I'm stating things that feel like, oh, empathy is important,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: bad things happening to people is not good. Like I'm
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: trying like these are the arguments I'm trying to make
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: with people, and it's so frustrating and so defeating.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as Elaine asks who stands to benefit most? Who
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: benefits from this?
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Who is benefiting from this?
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Not the kyrieene And people, I mean the American people.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean arguably the karan and do kind of
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: benefit from this. But you know, again, it's because Elaine
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: is a good monarch being written by a monarchist. So, yeah,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: they go through this kind of process about who's her
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: real enemy and how to appear to what they want.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: It's fun for dchs. And then we move over to
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: questions of the invasion, the invasion of and Or that
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: the Dark Friends were talking about, and how is it real?
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: Is it a general threat? How we respond to it?
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And they kind of make the wrong bet essentially, you know,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: it's kind of a coin toss and they take the
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: wrong set, and thus they are way less prepared than
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: they could have been if they'd been really really paranoid
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: about thinking about how because that's the thing too, is
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: they think about, oh, well, then an invasion will be overland.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: They don't even think about the fact that there's a
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: way gate in the heart of the city, which I
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: feel like should have been a higher item on the
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: security issues.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: Well, and I love the fact that Matt's holding a
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: letter telling him exactly what's going to happen with the invasion.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: And here, at the end of talking about the invasion,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: she guesses, Oh, it is Brigida bringing me Matt, And
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, maybe she should be Maybe you should
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: be asking him about the invasion. Maybe he should be
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: opening that fucking letter right like this. The letter is
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: such a Matt's letter is such a frustrat writing plot
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: point to me because it just it feels it feels
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: like he's punishing the readers with it.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, what did we do right? Deserve that?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Like what? Like it doesn't solve anything, it doesn't help anything.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: It just makes Matt look stupid for not opening the
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: letter earlier.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes like a quarter of Kamo's population die
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: for Matt's pride, which doesn't seem proper, right or Matt's paranoia,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: And then you kind of add in here, oh kind
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: of makes Lane look stupid as well.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: So it's just it. I don't like it. I don't
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: like it as a plot point I don't. I wish
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: he hadn't gotten the letter, you know.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: And also it's silly for Lene not to know about
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: this because Rand went through that waygate and he was
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: in charge of Camlin for a hot minute, and he
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: sent the ogier out to look for all the waygates
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: because of invasion issues. You'd think he would have left
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: a high priority memo with the palace with people like
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Nori to be like, just maybe that's the thing.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: And I think he did, right, that's the thing. Like
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: he remember he sent low allowed to close all the
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: way gates, and Lola said, I closed all the ones
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: that weren't in the city, and Rand said he sent
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: letters to all of the leaders of those cities warning
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: them about the waygate and like that. Yeah.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: So it's ridiculous for the Queen of Andor not to
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: have been briefed on that and not to be thinking
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: about it and not to immediately leap to that when
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: she has any hint of an idea that there might
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: be an invasion. So the point that that letter is
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: irrelevant and didn't need to exist, right, it doesn't actually
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: serve a purpose.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: This should have been like, oh, and make sure we
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: guard the way gates too, and then like maybe you
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: can have a betrayal or something from the inside, right,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Like that's.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Fine, totally fall Dara two point zero.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like have a dark friend, you know who you
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: didn't trust, you know, make one of your character's dark friend. Fine,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: but like this whole I didn't think about. It makes
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: me just feels dumb. Yeah. Yeah, one, and so then
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: next thing is incomes Glade and more geze.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we get two cloaked figures and then it's
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: one happy surprise after another. Mm hmm.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: And I kind of do like the way they approach
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: each other as queen's first. This is a good interaction
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: between the two of them. It's well written. I think
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: it's a really good realistic look at how the two
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: of them would interact if they really if Elaine realized
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: her mother was alive in this moment after becoming queen.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: Right, the conflict of but now there's two queens, and
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: like going to that even before the human reaction of
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: my mother is alive, Like she's such a queen that
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: she leaps right to the queenly implications. Yeah. I don't
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: like it because I don't like monarchy, but you're right,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: it is very authentic to the characters. It's very correct
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: to who they are as people.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: I love the irony when she realizes that the White
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Cloaks were telling the truth about having her mother, that
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: that's great.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: That that moment when she's like, wait, that moment in
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: which I like embraced my power and told those women
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: to sit down and shut up was the one time
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: that white Cloaks weren't lying to my face, like what.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah? And then Elaine working with Glad, He's like why
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: are you with them? Or like I almost forgot that
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: and he turns the children had answers, Lane and like, yeah,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: that's the problem. They have answers, not questions. They gave
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: you answers and didn't provide you with any black and
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: white questions.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you were a seeker, is the real answer to
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: that question.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: It's just any anyone who claims to have the answer TM,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: you know, is most likely bullshitting you.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, unless we're talking about a literal like physics equation,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: right right, No, you don't have the answer.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: So that's that's how I see him as like, yeah,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: they had answers, Well, yeah, because you bought into a
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: cult and they told you they had answers to the
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: you know, big questions of life that we can't answer,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: like what does it all mean? And why are you here?
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: I do like how he phrases it, though, not that
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: the children were correct, but just that the children had answers.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Answers.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he is being very honest there that, like he
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: was looking for answers that they provided, not verifying the
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: efficacy of those answers in the real world. Just that
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: was the dynamic.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: And now he's the leader and they follow him and
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: he steers them, and she's like okay, and.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Then Elaine says, oh, we should probably catch up, and
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: so Galad does a very autistic okay, let me give
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: you a complete and entire and meticulous version of what happened,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: just like goes on and on and on, like people
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: are looking at each other and grinning. There's a whole
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: homie feel of like, oh, yeah, this is just how
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: he is, and I'm like, Echollot's one of us.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Well, he does have a hyperfixation on sword fighting.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: He's a hyperfixation on sword fighting. He's extremely black and
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: white thinking. He follows instructions very literally. His code of
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: honor will lead him into more trouble than it's worth,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Like the man is one of us.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Hey, at least we don't have gowin.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I am so happy to be claiming Galot instead of going.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: Would you like? And then of course they where do
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: they put him? Right back in his old quarters? Familiar spaces? Yeah?
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: They like, no, not something nice, just his old.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Quarters, and like he doesn't linger for a long time,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: like they catch up and then he's like, all right, good,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: I'm done, and like leaves and like the whole conversation
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: feels like an exchange of information. I'm just like, man,
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: the number of men that are like this in my family. Yeah,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: it's it's cute. It's very cute. And then we Morgaze
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: gets more confirmation about Rovin from Elaine, which is cool
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: because she's actually getting to talk to a channeler about it,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: not just to paren who knows things because of his
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: connection with Rand, but to a channeler who can be like, no,
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: here's like mechanically what happened to you? And we can
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: explain it with like magic science and offer some kind
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: of treatment, which she turns down, but still I feel
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: like it helps it helps deepen her closure to be like,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, this is like a known thing. We
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: can we can talk about it. Even though it was
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: a man's channeling. Still here's a woman channeler explaining what
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: compulsion is in a way that paren can't.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she can say, oh, I've moved, I've moved beyond it, right,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Like the compulsion isn't deep anymore. I still feel it,
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: but it's not affecting my life.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Right. It's like when you've moved past, like a really
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: intense addiction or bad dark time in your life. Like no,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: like the shadow of it is still there. It's not gone.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: It's just manageable. It's like how many people I know
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: have talked about depression. Yeah, it's never going away, but
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: it's not a problem like it was.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: They talk about Rand a little bit, and I like
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: the motherly responsive. I should have thrown him in the
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: dungeon when I the first time I looked at you.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: I also love that Elaine doesn't even begin to try
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: to lie about it. She's like, you're going to be
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: a grandmother and the father is Rand, like just no hesitation,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: excited to share that with her mother. It's not a
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: secret between the two of them, like mother and daughter.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I like that closeness from.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Them, and then a little bit shallow where morgues. They're like,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: you know, you coming back might open some wounds of
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: all those people you insulted and exiled and I had
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: to fight really hard to bring back. And she's like, well,
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: I may have to apologize. I would like to see
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: a little more contrition on that, to be like, yeah,
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: I really fucked up. I know it was Ravine making
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: me do it, but like, that's on me. I'm gonna
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: have to grovel a little bit to these people.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what does she say, what's the actual.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Line I will have to apologize? Morgay said, perhaps offer reparations.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, perhaps offer reparations. She's literally being more accountable than
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: the US government to African and Indigenous descented people. She's
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: literally leaping to the concept of reparations without throwing a
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: hissy fit. She's literally better than our government.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: Well, she did it to very specific people, not to
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: a whole class.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: So fair fair is a much smaller timeline. She can
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: encompass it more completely within her own self still though in.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: The actions of an individual rather than a society.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's like, is this a huge, massive empire
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: shredding event, or is it like a minor tif between friends.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: I can't tell because like Elaine had to deal with
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: a civil war, there were like never trick hands running around.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: And now, yeah, more Gaze is like if I give
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: them a really nice thank you card and like a
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: fifty dollars for a certificate or are we like are
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: we good? Was this a big deal?
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: Or not?
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: But you know, at the same time hard to want
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: to get publicly humiliated and punished for something that like
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: one of the Devil's minions made you do.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: And so then we sort of have this resolution of
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: her storyline where it's like, I'm going to send you
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: back to deal with Paren and you're just gonna be
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: my liaison. Just basically go back to doing what you
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: were doing, which is sitting at parent's side, only in
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: an official capacity as like my advisor on that coast.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Right, because she wants to split the difference on having
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: more Gaze around and respected and honored and not overbearing,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, you already are doing that with Paren.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: You already have that relationship. We can just put some
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: fancy letterhead on it and otherwise nothing changes perfect, which
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I mean it's gonna work out great because Paren, and
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: you are not going to want to have to run
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: all their own interference with the Crown. You know, it'll
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: be nice to have a middleman to do some of
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: that in between stuff when they're dealing with all their
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: own internal two rivers things.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: And Elaine and Paren never really have any relationship as
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: far as I can tell. Elayne and Matt do, right,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: and Elayne and Rand certainly do. But like, that's one
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: of those situations where I'm like, I can never put
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Elaine and Paren in the same room at the same time, not.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Until after this meeting. There is the meeting that's coming up,
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: but yeah, that's basically the only time we see them
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: in a room together. I think they might be like
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: half a scene in The Stone of Tyr early on, right, right,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: but like, yeah, they know of each other and have
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: like respect at a distance, but they don't actually like
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: spend time together.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Because Rand talks about his friends parent and Matt and
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: Paren saw Rand and Elaine kissing in corners right in
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: the Stone, But like, yeah, I can't imagine being in
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: the same room together at the same time.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they have one meeting that I can think of,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: and it's in response to this discussion here, so it's
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: after this, so yeah, you know, might as well have
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: the elder Elaine, who does have a relationship with paren
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: right to run that interference.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: And that brings us to the end of the POV
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: where they we hear that Lenny couldn't be killed by
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: the collapse of Dragon Mount itself.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: The comment I wasn't actually worried about Lenny because I
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: just can't imagine her dying is like adorable, because yeah,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I too was never worried about Lenny. With the More
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Gaze plu. As soon as More Gaze took off out
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: of the palace and Lenny went with her, I'm like, well,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: at least Lenny's going to survive. I don't know who else.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Clearly Lenny will last, but yeah, with that, we go
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: over to the other POV vienda in the Threefold Land,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: taking that last deep breath before plunging into Rwidian. She's
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: thought about what Nakomi said. She's made the last leg
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: of the trip and she heads in, but doesn't you know,
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: do the thing yet. We're very very slowly creeping up
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: to that because that's the kind of suspense that Sanderson
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: likes to.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Build, and she's kind of thinking about like how the
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: city's different than it was. Right that the three things right,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: there's no mist He created that lake full of water,
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: so that's enough life sustaining water, which in the waste
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: is a big deal. And then he sort of made
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: the purpose of rudion obsolete because it was like it
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: was to get people ready to fight for the dragon,
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: and now that they're doing that, there's no need to
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: get ready for a fight that's in the past.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: And he revealed the secrets that it used to be
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: this whole process to come up to learning and now
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: it's just anyone can know it. So what's the point
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: of having the secret enshrined in the city. And so
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: she's kind of going in as one of the first
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: people to see the city after that transition and like
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: engage with it as a wise one. Obviously there's people
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: living there and all that, but I don't think anyone
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: else has engaged with the city as a trial since
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Rand did anything.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as far as we know, I think she's the
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: first wise one. Well, I'm not sure about that they've
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: sent I feel like there's been other people who've tested
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: since then.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I'm not positive either way, But yeah, it's kind of
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: like a really important phase in the wise ones collective
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: knowledge is like, how do we transition our knowledge of
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: what this trial means?
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: So, because there are people living there, right, so it's
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: not like they've these people would still be going through
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: the columns.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: I feel like, well, the columns are still being given
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: a wide birth. People are living in the city. They're
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: not wandering through the turannkrehole.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: But it's not like, oh my god, the city's you
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: can't get to them because of the X, Y and
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Z that happened. Right Like, if someone wanted to test
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: for either a clan chief or a wise one, they're available,
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: They're open, you can still walk through them. They're not
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: fencing them off, nothing like that.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know if we get confirmation that
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: she is the first or not, but even if she's
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: not the first, she's certainly one of the first. And
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: she is definitely the most constant quenchal because of her
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: ability to alter what the settings of the Tarangreil are
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: to read the terranngriill.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that when we get to it.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Exactly what she's doing.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, that's going to be a long episode. But yeah,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: she kind of is thinking through the mental puzzle of
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: being someone who is both conservative and curious. Right. She
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: wants to stick with tradition, but not just for its
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: own sake. She's really like, I want to cling to
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: what's familiar, but also like I can't justify it. I
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: need to be curious and find new information.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: Well, and she's in a new world, right. They have
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: crossed the Dragon Mound, and she, you know, there's too
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: many things. They have to rescue the people from the
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: shawn Chan. She has her near sister who's queen of
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: and Or who she can't leave. She has Rand who
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: you know, assuming he survives last battle, she doesn't want
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: to leave, right, She's and he's not going to come
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: back to the waste. There's all these things, and it's like, yeah,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: my people are going to stay. We have to adapt
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: to live in the wetlands. It doesn't I want to
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: go back to the waste because that's what I know.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't make sense for her people, right.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: And it's the whole thing about like we can't go
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: back to our old feuds after fighting this massive war together.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Like and she even says it here, it was strength
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: to accept change when it could not be avoided. Like
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: that's the realization is like, no, we've crossed the rubicon,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: like it, you cannot go back. There is no going back.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: As much as you want to, it's not enough. So
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: what do you do? How do you handle the fear
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: of what comes next?
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: And Rudian also already is a place where nobody's fighting
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: in the streets. Right, it's a place of plenty, it's
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: a place of peace where they are reenacting the way
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: of the Leaf. Right, you have this, you know, the
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: piece of Ruidion is almost an echo of the way
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: of the leaf. Right, anyone who comes to Rudian, can
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: you know, can pick up no spear, can't harm each other.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: And it's like, yeah, that's that's an echo of the
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: way of the Leaf. And now it's going to radiate
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: out from that place as you have this city where
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: people live and survive who are inherently peaceful again, which
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: is their roots as people who follow the way the Leaf.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think it's interesting that he says there
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: would be no shops, no arguments in streets, no murderers
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: and alleys Like wait, having shops is the same as
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: having conflict and murder, you know, I did notice that
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: that is that feels like it's like I'm anti capitalist
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: as the next random person who has a podcast. But
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: like that seems a little dramatic that the concept of
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: having shops and murderers and alleys are synonymous, Like okay, okay,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like, if it's a thriving city,
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: you're gonna have people who want to sell baskets for
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: apples or whatever. Maybe it's like all supposed to be
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: just a rainbow gathering or everyone just like bars.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like, yeah, that is weird. But I feel like
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: she's she means shops that are like for earning a
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: lot of profit.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: Right, I don't know.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: I yeah, that's weird. I don't know that. I totally
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: skipped right over that when I was reading. But yeah,
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: that's a very weird statement. There would be no shops,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: no arguments and street snow orders and alleys. It's like, yeah,
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: there's no capitalism.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: You can't have peace if there's any amount of shops,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: which is yeah, I feel that feels like an oversimplification
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: of the concept of having an economy, because not all
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: economies are capitalists.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Most cities disgusted her with their corrupt filth, Like there
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: is this at like the corruptness there. Maybe the shops
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: are doing something.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, Rudian has been inhabited for a whole
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: six months, right of course it's not filthy. People have
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: just moved in and you're still working on rebuilding it.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Like are you letting the new car smell seduce you?
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Like what is happening? I don't know. I just it
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: feels like very weird, faulty logic there at the end.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like again that's Jordan trying to write
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: the Savage mind, you know, and kind of failing, or
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Sanderson trying to write writing the Savage. Yeah.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: And I don't like that framing of Theeel at all,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: that they're they're not noble savages. Actually, this is deeply
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: old concept even by the time that Sanderson's writing these books.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Stop it agreed, Agreed.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Anyway, it makes her decide that she's going to power
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: through the trial, and I guess that's the important takeaway.
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: But the questions are also important because she uses those
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: to change what the Tower Greoal does.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, looking at the issues of the
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: past and present and wondering how that should change their
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: outlook on the future. It's good questions. It's good questions
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: and uh yeah, that's the end of that chapter.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Then let's go right into and rawl working Leather And
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: this is a dark Tower, so the Fang of the Fang.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the Black Tower, the Fang, the dark Friends,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: the impending shadows, the paranoia of the taint. Right, there's
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: a lot lot of sidine stiff. Yeah, is a man
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: chapter and like Man's Man's chapter.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: This is such Bridge four vibe right, well, especially like
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: when they start talking about soup very much Bridge four
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: vibes from Stormlide.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Archive, Yeah, which is like one of the only things
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: I know from Stormlide Archive, because that's about how far
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: I got into those books. Before I decided I was
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: done with them. I was like, Okay, I've seen this
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: scene before. Anyway, I've got better stuff to read, Like
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: the Baba Verse for the eightieth time.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Why why do those books appeal so much? The bob
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: of Verse Ray Porter.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: I just like his voice.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: Also, I love Man as computer and Man versus nature.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: That's just kind of like thematic trends and genres. I
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: really really like man versus nature and man becomes machine.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: It's not the first books that hit those buttons for me,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: so they're kind of at my alley already. But Ray
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Porter's a big part of why I like those books.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: But yeah, we get a very long intro about working leather,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: and I don't have really anything to say about it.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: I have two things to say about it. One is
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: there was a tranquility to this kind of work. So
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: much of his life was about destruction these days, and
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: this was something I was talking about with you before
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: we started recording. Was like, I've been getting into my
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: sewing room more the last week or so, and tangibly
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: making things is definitely helping me deal with the rating
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: existential angst of even attempting to keep up with what's
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: going on in the world. I have been repairing, making
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: things that I need, shirts, sunglasses, case. It's just really
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: helpful to make things, so I totally agree with andrel
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: on that that. Just really focusing in on making all
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the stitch work perfect and making this one thing that
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: will make your life a little easier. It really does help.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: When the world around you is falling apart, in your
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: own mind is betraying you, it helps to do something
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: like that. And the other thing I wanted to point
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: out was he thinks burn the day word got out
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: that I had good shears in you, because yeah, you
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: keep away from my scissors. This is such a real
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: crafting problems.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: A love there for one thing and one thing only,
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: and people want need scissors for whatever. For me, it's
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: my knives. It's like, don't fucking open cartons with my
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: good knives.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, do not use my dress shears to cut Piper,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: don't do it.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Cardboard is one of the hardest things out there. It'll
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: destroy any edge that you throw at it.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I just that's that's very relatable. That
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: is an extremely relatable complain from him. But yeah, other
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: than that, that's all I've got on his long, beautiful
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: smell of leather digression into being a crafter.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: And then we get a bunch of statements that make
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: us realize just how abusive the Black Tower is right
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: the whole, like he can only channel when he's holding leather.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: The Mahala had beaten that out of him.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: I think he beat it out of him with a
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: leather strap.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Probably not, because you wouldn't want to associate the other.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Also the Mahel is lazy, so he would use
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: air just because yeah.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: He just channels it, right, Yeah, and we kind of
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: get like the parameters of and Ral right, incredibly weak
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: in the one power but can channel and create gateways
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: without really any effort whatsoever, which is makes him very unique.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: It's so Sanderson, because Sanderson loves to take a strength
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: and a weakness and pair them together and make an
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: interesting character out of that. That's his best. Like, and
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: here we have someone who is really really weak in
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: the one power in general and then uses this talented
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: gateways to kind of make up for that because he
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: can do this one thing better than anybody else. And
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: so if you can push that to the extreme, well
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: that can be something that's an interesting magic system that
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Sanderson likes to write.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Also Sanderson just likes to push a magic system
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to its logical extreme. And yes, how can I stack
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: the effects like it's a video game. So yeah, you
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: really see all of that shining in inglorious extreme with
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: andrewl Because anyone could have used gateways as scissors this
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: whole time, that's not unique to him, but only Sanderson
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: would think, well what if? What if? What if? Right,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: it's like us thinking about why don't you make you know,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: engines out of quandy Are or whatever. It's like Jordan
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: just didn't go there. Sanderson goes there, and he goes there.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: One of the reasons he is abled to go there
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: is by again giving his character these weaknesses so they
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: can't do the normal thing. There's a reason these characters
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: look for these extreme afile magic systems. It's because they failed,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: which is I mean, that's a huge trope among you know,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: old magic novels too, where you have this character who, oh,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: I'm no good at this magic that everybody else can do.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: I have to go on a quest to somehow find
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: my magic. And then it's either because they're good at
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: a different kind of magic that's way more powerful and
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: kind of subsues the one that they were trying to
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: learn in the first place. Right, I'm thinking like plug
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: even in like Canous trilogy. Right, both of those cases,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: you have a character who sucks at magic and it
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: turns out, oh, they just they were more they were
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: good at the more powerful one. Or you have a
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: character who's blocked by some ancestor of theirs who's given
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: them a magic but they need to learn something before
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: they can use it, or yeah, that that level of storytelling.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Jordan only ever did it the once with that
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: character who can shield just pretty one of the kin
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: who's pretty weak but can shield anyone. That's the one
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: time Jordan played with that for that one character.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Well, you can push on it as hard as you
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: wanted and it would just stretch instead of breaking, whereas
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: everybody else's would break. Yeah, and I almost feel like
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: that's just because you wanted to create a way to
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: hold a male channeler with one character for the second
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: The male channeler, who is she holding?
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: Isn't that h was shield? Weren't they shielding? Ran?
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: No? I need Oh okay, oh that's.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: Right, Sorry, it's I need to re read these novels.
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: There are so many details in them. Yeah, it's so funny.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: We podcast about them for years, and like there's just
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: so many details. If they're not fresh, they fade. You
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: have to constantly be refreshing yourself on these, especially the
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: earlier books. The human brain's fascinating. It doesn't work for it.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: It's like somehow it feels like it shouldn't work at all,
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: and yet we survive and function with this brain that
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: can't remember with any reliability or with any detail, and
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: it just kind of makes assumptions and bases our memories
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: on those assumptions.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: Good enough to reproduce, that's all that matters.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: Good, good enough for reproductive work, that's all.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: It's just cobbled together enough to keep rolling down the hill.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. Yeah, wid my back agrees with that.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: So yeah, we think about Logan and we walk around
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: the Black Tower.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: It's his philosophy about small things and small moments piling
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: up to make big moments, and that's what a man's
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: life is made up of. So right, that philosophy of
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: like do the right thing always, you know, live your code,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: do the right thing in small moments, and the big
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: moments will take care of themselves. There's that philosophy of
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: life that Andrawl is very much espousing. Yeah, which I
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: on one level I appreciate where it's like, yeah, that's
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: what hard work is and that's but on another level
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: it's like, okay, so you never get to have any fun,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: you never get to relax. Every small moment has to
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: be important, every moment has to mean something. Right. There's
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: almost a balance for me there where it's like not
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: every moment has to be important, and I feel like
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: people who espouse this philosophy are like, no, no, no,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: never relax always work hard.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It reminds me of the injunction to like, oh,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: you can always do more tomorrow than you did today,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I literally don't have the capacity for
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: endless exponential growth, right, That's actually not how that works.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: That's actually not a realistic thing.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: So yeah, but it's also like, you know, there's a
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: nice underlying vibe to it of like you can always
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: be building and doing better, but like not in a
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: linear fashion, not in an exponential fashion, like not in
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: a consistent way at all, because that would be just
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: endless growth. So yeah, it's like, sometimes you've just got
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: to be relaxed and be sloppy and messy and it's fine.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Being a perfect golden boy at all times is actually
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: going to lead you to burnout and judging other people
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: really harshly and making a supremacist state that burns the
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: world down in exchange for sky Daddy's hopeful pats on
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: the head.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: Right. So this is where I say I see religion
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: in Sanderson's writing, and people like no, I don't see that,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: And I go, then you need to look at deeper
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: into the philosophy of characters, because they're just inherently rooted
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: in this belief of hard work leads to goodness. Yeah,
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: that's so deeply anchored in puritan ness and worshiping a
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: sky Daddy. That's just and it's so automatic because it's
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: so much part of our American culture as well, because
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: again they're two one and the same.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like, put off joy now because you'll
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: get rewards later.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, exactly exactly.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Don't agitate for better conditions now because you'll be rewarded
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: for your obedience in the next life.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: And it's it's subtle and it's not over the top,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: and it makes sense for most of the characters. But
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: at the same time, it's just embedded deeply in his
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: assumptions in a way that sometimes makes me hard. It
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: makes it hard for me to enjoy Sanderson.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I find it's nice that he's bundled all
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: this bullshit into andrewl where he's like, yeah, this guy's
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: only thirty, but also has lived a bajillion years, right,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: live a million lives. And I'm just like Okay, so
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: you're just a merry Sue, You're a self insert Mary Sue.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: I don't need to take you as seriously as I
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: take the other characters.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've lived. I've lived thirty lives, and like, as
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: a guy who's worked a lot of jobs, sometimes it
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: does feel like I'm I'm I talk like Androl, where
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, yeah, I did that when I worked
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: this job, and I did that when I worked this
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: other job, and you know.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: That's just an autistic job track record.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like that's someone what they're trying
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: to do with Androl. But yeah, him being thirty is
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: way too young, way too young.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: He's like, oh, yeah, I've infiltrated like a secret community
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: here in a secret society there, and invited to this
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: rare tribal community where I got to be inducted into there.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: I've traveled to the other side of the world. I'm
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: back right.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I speak all these other languages and I've picked
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: up all these other trades. And I also started a
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: political rebellion that one time, but I escaped the hanging
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: that everyone else suffered. At the end, I'm like, sorry, no,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: you're not wearing time as Carmel San Diego, like, calm down.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. I think he should be in his fifties.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, absolutely, he feels like, like the way that
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: he tells his story, he should be like in his
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: fifties three in sixties, and then he is canonically claimed
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: to be mid thirties, and I'm just like, no, And.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: It would make more sense why everyone was deferring to
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: him if he was a little bit older, right, like
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: all of these you know, Yeah.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: But yeah, he's walking around the White Tower thinking about
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: how weird the gravel looks and how adaptable children.
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: Are, and the Black Tower. Yeah, yeah, just the.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: Whole thing with how children don't care about superstition and danger,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: the threat modeling. It's just it's bucolic and horrifying at
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: the same time, which is a fun blend, and the.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Way children can get adapt in new circumstances. Yeah, because
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: that's the only thing they've ever known. I never understood
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: by people so mystified by that.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Because they've forgotten what it's like to be a kid.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I guess, I don't know. I don't know. It seems
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: pretty logical to me that prejudice and bias are taught,
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: not inherent.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: But the kids didn't live through those thousand years of tradition,
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: in centuries of tradition, They're going to adapt to whatever
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: the new circumstances are, not giving a shit about the traditions.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah anyway, Yeah, andreld does approves of being told to
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: hold the power all the time because it feels addictive.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: And he knows that addictive things are bad because moralizing, puritanical.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: He's experienced them.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, ideas again, that being high is bad and if
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: you enjoy being high, then something's wrong with you. But
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: you know, it's the one power, so it's okay, it's okay.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: But he's still going to judge them a hail for
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: telling them to hold the power all the time because
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: only bad people want to feel good all the time.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I mean that we are told over and over again
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: that holding the power all the time is bad and
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: like leads to bad things.
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: We're not shown that it's bad though, We're just told
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: that it's bad and everyone yeah does it doesn't seem
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: to suffer any ill effects at all, so I'm not convinced.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: I didn't notice. It's interesting that Andrel is weakest in earth.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Not only is he weak in general, but he's weakest
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: in what is normally like the strong male power. Right,
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: it was all weird that Agwayne was strong in Earth
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: because that's like one of the more male powers. It's thin.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that Arel's weakness extends all the way even
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: to powers. He's stronger and weaker in.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Well, it makes it more feminine, right, take away his
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: male masculine powers.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Ah, we're emasculating him for this sake of ha troupe reversal.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: But he's actually a real man's man. Look, well, he
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: scores this hot ies to die.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: So he's chilling around with the two Rivers guys who
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: are immediately told of course good guys because they're from
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: two Rivers, so there couldn't be a bad one among them.
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: Had they respect their uniforms. This line pissed me off,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: this line about how you can tell how much they
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: respect themselves in their uniform by like if they I'm like,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: why are they wearing their work uniforms in a ditch?
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: Why don't they have work jackets. Why don't they have
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: contractor sweat sweaters to wear? Why are they wearing their
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: fancy black coats while they're doing essentially manual labor. That
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: makes way more sense to me than oh, will they
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: use handkerchiefs to wipe their bro like what what?
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: What?
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It just really rubbed me the wrong way.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: It was an odd quote.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I know that like in the culinary world,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: having a towel as opposed to your sleeves be dirty
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: is important. But this is like road work.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: You know, it's different, right, And I mean they're not
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: they're not using their hands, they are using channeling. So
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: it's like they're supposed to just be standing on the
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: side looking at it, making dirt move, and so they're
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: not like dirty and sweaty. They're just sweaty because they're
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: like they have to concentrate.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: Well, it says that they're dirty because the dust has
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: been blowing all over their sweaty faces.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: Like fair enough, have you.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Ever seen mining? That shit's dusty?
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, dusty.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: So I don't know. I just I thought that was weird,
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Like they shouldn't be wearing those jackets. If they're going
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: to be out there in a dust cloud all day,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: they should be wearing dirty work clothes. That would make
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: more sense, That would be more respectful to the uniform
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: instead of you have to dress in your uniform at
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: all times, pretend that you're not touched by the world.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: That's weird. It's weird anyway. The Two Rivers lads are
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: young and good because they are from the Two Rivers.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of names in this chapter. I didn't
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: do a lot of looking up. Wow the little I
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: looked up, just you know, like, Okay, so Logane left
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: in the night. He'd taken Delano, Mezzar, and Wellyn, three
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: of the most powerful dedicated loyal to him. Do they
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: all get turned? Is that what happened with their fates become.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: A Mezzar definitely gets turned. I remember that name as
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: being an antagonist in I'm pretty sure he has an
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: antagonist in a later scene. Maybe not. I don't know,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I don't remember. I guess I should be doing more
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: of the looking at things.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, Delano has been turned to serve the Shadow as well,
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: and he is lured into the steading ah and then Whalin.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah he's turned. So yeah, all these that go with
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: him are turned.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, so these are these are good guys, they're not traders.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: They have to get forcibly turned, but none of them
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: make it. And I'm assuming that they're all named for
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: fans of the Wheel of Time, since they exist to
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: be sacrificed.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: No, they were actually from Tpod.
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, Path Daggers, the Path and Daggers.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Yea, these are sort of the nameless. This is Sanderson
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: checking these, I said the Asamont off his list is like, okay.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: These Okay, So this is what I wanted. This is
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: the kind of stuff I want. It's like, oh, those
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: people I should have known. If I'm a super super fan,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna know that they've been around before, and then
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be sad they died instead of inventing new people.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sorry to all the fans of the
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Wheel of Time. The inserts are sometimes cool, but this
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: is more what I wanted. These characters who are mentioned
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: briefly in book eight coming back just long enough to
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: get turned and die.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's like Whelan took part in the battle
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: at Algamar's Manor. Right. He watches Ram's meeting with Doddard
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: and nine Moons from a glance from a distance and
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: travels in his backup when it's revealed she's actually Simmarog
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: and like he talks about the Trader's Board as well
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: in an earlier book, and like the Lano, he can
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: read residues, so he could open gateways, participates at do
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: my as.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: Wells Okay, okay, yeah, that's that's definitely being present.
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: And watched his rants like the Oshaman to the Accompany
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: and the Kyrie, and so he could have gone with him,
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: and that he was in that crowd. And he's also
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: there meeting with the daughter of the Nine Moons.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: I guess that's part of why they were some of
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: the ones that were most loyal to Logain is because
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: they've actually been around doing things.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's these are the ones where he's like, yeah,
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: these are characters who've been in the background, who've been
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: help out Rand, who've been sort of the powerful aschaman
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: that we've used in the past, who haven't really done anything,
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: but now we have to do something with them, so
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: they're not participating in the last battle, and so that
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: he can give Androl a reason to be a leader.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: We get his insanity with the shadows creeping up after him,
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: and that if he holds on the power too long
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: and sort of how like we won't get any more insane.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: The new people won't get insane, but this is something
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: he's going to have to live with, hopefully at least
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: until Ninive fixes it.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and presumably this is exactly the sort of thing
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: that nine is going to be able to actually just fix,
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: because this is a very concrete, bounded kind of paranoia.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: One would assume that she can peel whatever taint is
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: on his mind off and this would.
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: Go away exactly exactly a.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: Lot of talk about how the Black Tower is going
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: to grow to rival the White Tower, which no, duh.
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It also makes me think that this was probably
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: a lot of what the island of Tarvaalen looked like
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: for the first you know, ten years or so, was
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: like a couple of buildings in some muddy streets, but
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: people looking at an empty space in the air saying,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: that's what the tower is going to be. Let's lay
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: out the streets to arrange these boulevards, these views, you know,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: all that.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: And when we have to have these bridges right like totally,
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: So he comes upon he's off wandering, and he comes
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: upon people practicing split into two groups, the loyalists and
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: the rebels or whatever you want to call it.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: The disloyalists yeah, yeah, the ones that are going with
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Taime and the ones that are going with Logan, the
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: ones that are aligned with the good and the ones
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: that are seduced by the dark And yeah, he's kind
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: of noticing that these two fractures exist, and how that's
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: not good if you know, we're all supposed toly working
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: to defeat the dark Wood in the last battle. This
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: shire doesn't seem like an efficient way to do it well.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: And there's so many times and it's like, Okay, these
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: are clearly dark friends, right, Like why is this so
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: hard to figure out that like special lessons learning faster
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: because they're taken over by a evil demon who can
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: channel better, Like.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: They're all means spirited and nasty and crotchety and they're
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: not like these nice, upright two Rivers lads. Yeah, it
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: just feels like we're being hit over the head with
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: how much dark friends they are. And the characters are
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: just like Lucky Dak d Da. I'm sure they're very
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: nice people.
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: They're being overseen by Coratine, who seems to be just
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: a new character, just just another bashole.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Koterin I think shows up a couple of times
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: in this conflict. He's he's a lieutenant of bullshit.
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: But I believe this is his introduction.
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, Kandler, Emarin, and Nalam are characters who have
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: existed for a while before. But yeah, Kotan, I believe
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: is new.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: And Okay, here's what I thought. Nalam launched into another story.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: He likes the bullshit, right.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Nalam is the story spinner.
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: But here's one story. He says, My uh, they're talking
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: about the two Rivers bows. My father trained on one
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: of those. Nelamb noted learned the art from a two
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: Rivers man whom he rescued from drowning. An Ilian has
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: the bowstring as momento? What two rivers man who would
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: be in his father's generation that we know was an
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: Ilian at the time.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Dam Tam was drowning once and this guy's father rescued
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: him and Tam was like, my bow strings are ruined.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: You can have it as a memento.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: That's kind of what I have to assume. This is
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: a nod to, right, like what other two rivers man
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: ever left Two Rivers That was a big deal that
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Tam did that we know Tam was an Ilian. Being
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: the right age at the right time.
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: Like, so there is always a nugget of truth in
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: every one of Nalam's stories. I think we're supposed to
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: take them. There's always something in it that's true, and
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: then he just spins it up into more than it
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: is because he's a you know, natural born gleaming or.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: They're all true and people just don't believe him.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: They can't all be true, that's ridiculous. But every single
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: one of them has enough truth in it that he
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: convinces himself that it was just artistic license that I
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: could believe his mother was busy infiltrating the Tuathon for
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: their recipes, Like I don't think so, sir.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: But this here, I mean, if you want to talk
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: about Bridge proto Bridge four, this interaction with these guys
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: sitting around telling these stories, like in this case, Nylan
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: might as well be loping right, the sitting around telling
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: the stories exaggerating, not real.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Of time, lopin a different lobe.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: There is there's a Lopen in Stormlight Archive who's a
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: much bigger character than the Lope in Wheel of Time. Okay,
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: then he's the one armed Hardasian who likes to tell jokes,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: but might as well Naylon might as well be. He might,
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: like the characters are the same. It's just like Nylon
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: might as well be the lopen Sure, sure, And like
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: this whole segment, I just I couldn't read it without
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: seeing like Bridge for sitting around the fire talking about soup,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: like that's just what they do.
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's good flavor text, character building stuff. I'm
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: not mad about the skill being deployed here, but this
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: that totally explains. I hadn't put it together because I'm
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: not as big of a fan of Sanderson, but that
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: totally explains why I opened up Storm at Archive and
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: immediately was like, why am I just back in the
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Last Battle? I'm so confused. I mean, not the true
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: last Battle, but you know, but it is, We're getting
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: real close.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: Which I mean, if you think about it, like the
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Aschaman and Bridge for are both groups of men fighting
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: a war destined to die, right, like sort of a
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: band of comrades in a bad situation and who are
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: using humor to cope with inevitable death and destruction. And
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: you know, the madness is less of an issue now.
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: But yeah, huh, yeah, those are actually very parallel. It's
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: just that in that world, the madness is external to
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: the men, whereas the madness is internal. But otherwise everything's
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: the same. Yeah, that makes sense.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: They're destined to die in Stormlade archive because of this
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: decisions politicians have made for their role in battle, which
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: is to charge at the enemy lines over and over
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: again with no shields, so that the enemy will shoot
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: you instead of our you know, more valuable soldiers over
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: there because they're actually trained and you're just a bunch
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: of fodder. Yeah.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the madness is a little bit different here, but yeah,
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: the dynamic of the band of brothers finding camaraderie in
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: a hopeless situation, yeah, that's pretty parallel.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: So and then there's this moment where like, oh, Androl
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: references shooting about horse back and everyone's like, wait, how
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: do you know how to do that? It's just another
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: one of the lists of things where people are like, wait,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: you've done a bunch of shit.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's just done everything. He's a merry soon, it's fine.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: So then there's the bullying section where Quarantine like makes him,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: you know, use his power in the most ineffective way
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: possible to make fun of him for not having any power.
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he points out the Koterin is the most
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: dangerous kind of bully, one with power and authority, and
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: how like dealing with those is very different from dealing
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: with a bully, where like the field is a little
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: more even. This is this is a very very dangerous variety,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: so you might as well just deal with it, which is, uh,
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: you know, it's a take. You know, he's very embarrassment
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: as a small price to pay when someone could like
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: possibly kill you instead. But yeah, again he's he's more
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: grounded and reasonable than someone in his thirties should be.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: You know, he's got a level of groundedness that feels
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: twice that age. And yeah, he kind of diffuses the
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: entire tension between the two groups, much to the dismay
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: of both groups, I think, because the bullies want to
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: have an excuse to beat these guys up, and these
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: guys are.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: Righteously pid, right, but wholly underpowered, so underpowered, as he
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: points out, yeah, it's basically the new guy and the
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: guy who can't channel very much. And yeah, one one
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: person with any experience, but less experience than the people
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: they want to fight, and they're outnumbered, and it's just like, yeah,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: you're you're screwed.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wait for Logan, wait for a team, wait for
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: resources allies.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: It does really make me think though, that, like the
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: Black Tower, I don't know why, but it makes me
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: feel like once you purge Logan's Men and all the
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: people who are turned, there's nothing left of the Black Tower.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: It feels like the entire Tower is being turned and
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: there's a very select.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: Few people in tames Men.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, was I saying TAM's You said.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: Logan's Men, And I was like, no, that the two different,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: but no. Yeah, with the way that they're turning everyone,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: what's going to be left at the end is going
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: to be like three guys.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And like it seems like once they get rid
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: of them, all of a sudden, all these guys come
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: out of the Word of Work and like, oh I
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: haven't been turned and I'm on Logane side this whole time,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Like where did you come from? Where have you been
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: this whole time?
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess the ones that were with us
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: to die from before available to get turned so they
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: can come back.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, some of the ones with parents and we'll the
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: ones with Rand Yeah.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: The ones that weren't at the Black Tower.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: But it feels like the Black Tower itself is just
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: like being hollowed out like that location.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: But that's also part of why Logane gets that pledge
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: from that woman at the end to say, I will
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: send my sons to you to see if they have
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: the gift. Like that's part of why is because the
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: Black Tower is going to be echoingly empty before it's
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: even built. But if you have suddenly a generation of
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: people who were like, oh yeah, no, like we send
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: our sons to the tower for testing, it'll fill up
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: real quick. But yeah, really, only that first crop of
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Aschaman from before Tayim got power is likely to be
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: able to say, oh yeah, I wasn't around to get turned,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: so I can show up and be present and not
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: be disloyal to Logane.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: And did you catch a by the way.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I catch him every.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: Time now that he's not a marn Yeah.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: He's that dude from the Manor House.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: He's Amarin's brother.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: So Amaran is Amarin was the name of his brother
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: who cad Swain helped live with having been stilled gentleman.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, but he lived for about ten years after being.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Gentle Yeah, because of Kadswan's care and attention to the
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: whole process and experience. And so yeah, now he's taking
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: on his brother's mantle, curse, name, identity to take him
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: to the last battle. Essentially.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: It's really sweet, right, Yeah, this is my brother didn't
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: have a chance to fight, so I will credit him
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: for my fighting, right.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: And he had a successful life as a lord, and
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: now can you know, just quietly retire from that and
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: have a new life essentially doing what yeah, his brother
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: could not. But yeah, Amarin is a nice voice of
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: reason and experience and seasoning and groundedness. Even though he's
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: not experienced it being an ashaman, he is experienced at
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: living life, which a lot of you know, again, the
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: two Rivers lads, they're all young. A lot of the
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: good guys are really young and inexperienced it just life
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: in general. So Amarin provides a nice counterbalance to that
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: for a while, and he lasts a long time into
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: the last battle. I don't think he makes it through,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: but he does make it to the last battle, I believe.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: I believe he makes it through the coup or the
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: reverse coup or whatever it is that happens where Logan
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: ultimately comes out on top. Oh my god, there's a
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: character in here Cash Kash like Cash Patel. Oh my god,
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: that's funny.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: Uh. So during the last battle he fights besides Andral
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: Pavara and that group and lures a group of dreadlords
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: into the steading. It's the last time we see him
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: so alive and well done fighting for the last battle.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: He actually lives. Presumably yeah, presumably, huh, good for him.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: Where's Cash? I don't see that.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: It's a bit farther down, but Alam says something is
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: strange about Nansen and that Cash. Where did he even
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: come from? And how did he grow so powerful so quickly?
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: And I just noticed that it's Cash like Cash Battel,
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: the ridiculous stupid man.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: I don't have that name in mind. Really, Oh Kash, Yeah,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I was telling it. See I'm a dumbass.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what struck me about it was that it's
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: Kash like Cash battel.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, no information, Oh that he ends up being
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: part of the Ogier trap.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Good for him, Hugo Tree, no other this.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: Is this is the only information we have about him.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: Not named after anybody either, as far as I can tell,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: no names in this chapter, despite all the names in
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: the chapter now, none of them were named after anybody
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: weird that I could find. They were all just a
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: bunch of some new There were new new Aschaman for
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: sure made up, but as far as I can tell,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: they're not. They're not named after any of the fans
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: of the Wheel of Time.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: Hm. There it is.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: Then, I feel like Sanderson was like he'd spent all
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: this time writing Jordan's stuff, and he's like, I need
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: a section where I can just be a little more free,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: create some new characters, flex my writing chops a little bit,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: throw some of my ideas in. And that's why he
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: did Androl. It's like I feel like that for him
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: was him just like breaking free of some of the
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: constraints that he'd been put under when writing Wheel of Time.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: And like if he needed that to write the rest
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: of the books, fine, If this.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: Is a pressure released fell for his creative process, then
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: you know what way to contain it.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: Great. That's how I feel a little bit about the
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: Andral section is it's like, Okay, that's where Sanderson was
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: letting off a little Sanderson steam, and that's how he
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: gave us the rest of it.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: I can totally buy that that he instead of putting
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: little bits and pieces of it everywhere. He sort of
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: just brought it all over to one plot and said,
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: this is this is my sandbox where I get to
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: do that with free rein more or less. And yeah,
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: that's an explanation that I'm not going to be mad about,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: because who am I to argue with the creative process.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: And we all wanted more time in the Black Tower,
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: I think, I mean that I always more time, like
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: that was such a good environment to set up and
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: sort of create this alternate learning environment to mirror the
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: White Tower.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Sanderson picked a good place to flesh. Yeah, even
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: if he picked an odd set of characters, he picked
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: a very good location.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: And I think he picked those characters to give himself
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: more freedom. I think he would have been locked into
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: some certain things if he'd picked Logan, which we.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Might have wanted.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: But yeah, which we would wanted and I think would
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: be better for the story, but probably not better for
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: the author.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: Which we do have to give the author some concessions
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: because he is the one actually in there doing battle
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: with the blinking cursor, right.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: And the and the filling out the dream and the idea.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: You know, as much as we sit here and criticize,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: and I do. We do criticize quite a bit. Sanderson
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 2: finishing another author's series is not for the faint of heart.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: And he did it really well for someone who is
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: not the author who wrote it, and I always want
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: to give him credit for it, despite the fact that
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: I do criticize a lot of the choices he made.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: But it's because I love it, you know, And I wouldn't.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: I could never write the way he writes, but the
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: choices he makes that I also wouldn't make.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but that's all I got for the rest of
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: the chapter, and ready for you to read us.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: Out same Yeah, all right, Well they opened the book
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: up again because I closed it because I was done.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: I was like, that's all I have to The group
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 2: turned to Androl. Why did they look to him, the
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: weakest of them? All he could do was create gateways.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: That's where Courteen's nickname for Andral had come from. Page boy.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: The only thing he was good for was delivering messages,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 2: taking people places. But the others looked to him for
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: one reason or another. They looked to him all right,
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: Andrel said, let's see what we can find. Bring Evan
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: Hardlin and Norley into this, but don't tell anyone else,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: not even the other two rivers. Lads, don't worry out
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: Tayim or his men. But if you do find something,
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: bring it to me and I'll see if I can
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: find a way to contact the Gain or at least
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: find where he went. Each man nodded somber Light, help
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: us if we're wrong, andrel thought looking back at Tayan's
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: favorites and light help us more if we're right.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the correct way to look at that.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: And unfortunately you are right and you're screwed the way.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, thanks for joining us for another Wheel
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: of Time chapter. We got about new Tennis. More chapters
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: left in this book, and then it's on to the
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: final Memory of Light and also news Spring. Yes, a
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: new spring, but new Spring is such a dot on
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: the sentence is crossing of the tee and it's one
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: of those things where it's like the sentence is written
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: that's just checking off the last thing.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: It's wild. It's wild. We're moving on through. Really appreciate it.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: I'll being here and.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: We're coming up on the nine year anniversary of the
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: podcast since we started it.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: Wild.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: When is this episode coming out? Do you have a
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: date on that.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: Uh in nine days.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, so not quite probably not this episode, but the
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: one after it will probably come out because April well, no, no, sorry,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: getting my days mixed up. April twenty first, it will
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: be the nine year anniversary of the podcast. Wow, April
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: twenty first, From nine years from when that first episode
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: dropped in, what would that be twenty seventeen, I think
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: at this point, yeah, twenty seventeen. Yeah, and you and
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: I have been doing it since twenty twenty, so that
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: puts you at nearly six years.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: It's a long time.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, three years with Patrick basically, and then.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: I don't like to think about an ending. That gives
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: me an upset brain.
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to believe, but I mean that we
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: are at thirteen fourteenth.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of wild.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: That's like more than ninety percent, you know, that's a.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: Mad person, but that is definitely a lot.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: So it's hard not to look at this and go
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: and see the end and see where where something that's
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: been a big part of my life for a very
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: very long time, you know. And we probably have another
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: year right before we get through the rest of this book,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: and we want to take I want to take a
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: bit of a break between books.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: Maybe we're going to make it take another year. Yeah,
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: last for ten years.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: That's an agreement, so however long it takes. But but yeah,
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: we're going to try and go for ten years and
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: then I think that's that's kind of where it has
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: to end.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I don't like the existential dread. We'll cross
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: the bridgeway, come to it, all right, folks, thanks for
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: joining us.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Really appreciate all the support that everyone has always given
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: us on Patreon. That's always just been been such a
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: wonderful gift over the last yeah nineish years. Have to
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: have that income coming in and have that encouragement and
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: have everybody you know, show their belief in what we're
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 2: doing here in that way. So thank you.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: Y'all are great and we will see you next week.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: Please rate and review us on your podcast app and
• 1:11:52
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• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: Spoilers is a production of Fox and Raven Media. For
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: more podcasts from Foxenravenmedia, visit our website at Foxendravenmedia dot com.