Latest / The Layback Podcast / Mason Feole, Owner of Feole Pitching LLC / Development Coach @ Connected Performance (Ep. 49)

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Mason Feole, Owner of Feole Pitching LLC / Development Coach @ Connected Performance (Ep. 49) · The Layback Podcast

0:00
What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Lay Back
0:02
podcast. Joining us today is Mason Fioli.
0:05
Mason and I got connected originally back in 2021, I guess
0:10
it was with the San Diego Padres.
0:12
We were doing some of our initial beta testing out there
0:15
with Flex Pro Grip. Mason himself was coming off of
0:18
his own elbow injury, so he was not a part of the initial test
0:21
group. But we definitely became
0:23
accustomed to throwing some thoughts at each other, passing
0:26
each other in the complex or in the athletic training room.
0:29
And it's been awesome to follow Mason's career, not just as a
0:32
player, but now into what he's doing in the performance world
0:35
with connected performance. So with that, I'm going to pass
0:38
it over to Mason. Let him covers bio a little bit,
0:41
and then we're going to get in the weeds.
0:42
So, Mason, thanks again for coming on.
0:44
Adam, thanks for having me. It's funny how things sort of
0:46
come full circle and I'm sitting with you in a different light
0:50
now. But no, it was a privilege to
0:52
kind of meet you and get acquainted with you in Arizona
0:56
all those days. I think we had a lot of really
0:58
good conversations and I'm glad we get to kind of kick it off
1:00
and have 1:00 today. Yeah, it was cool to see what
1:02
you guys were able to do then and what it's progressed into
1:05
now. Kind of like we were talking
1:06
about earlier, just how far it's gone from just being something
1:09
that we knew was kind of internal with the Padres, but
1:11
now is at different schools and different personal players are
1:15
using it and throughout all the organizations.
1:17
So it's been really cool to see you guys grow and evolve.
1:19
But yeah, no, I I was lucky enough to have a pretty good
1:23
playing career and really happy about the stuff that I was able
1:25
to learn. On the injury side, I was
1:28
injured for more than I was healthy during my career.
1:31
I think I spent more days on the Illinois than the active roster.
1:34
But it definitely gave me a unique perspective and player
1:36
development and skill acquisition.
1:38
And that's what I try to instill.
1:39
And I've used my think on the player development side now.
1:42
So I'm really fortunate to kind of be in a position where I get
1:45
to work with a a lot of very high level players and hopefully
1:48
make a, a pretty big impact on their careers.
1:50
And with the knowledge base that I was able to find through
1:52
playing, but also obviously through my own coaching
1:55
development and coaching understanding as well as stuff
1:58
on like the biomech and, and the PT or, you know, all the
2:01
athletic development side and really put to work what a lot of
2:04
my mentors as a player hadn't stolen me.
2:06
So it's great to be on this side of things now.
2:08
And yeah, I just look forward to continue to grow it and making
2:12
an impact in players lives. Well, there's so many different
2:14
places we could go even off of your initial response there.
2:18
I want to talk about the groups that we had in Arizona or your
2:23
own experience on the IL versus playing.
2:25
Like I said, my brain is already turning like crazy, but maybe
2:29
the right place to start is did you ever think you were going to
2:33
end up on this side of baseball coaching, mentoring, training?
2:37
Or did you just fall into this because of what happened to your
2:41
your playing career? Yeah, so I knew that I wanted to
2:45
be on player like development side, but I it looked a lot
2:49
different as I sort of grew as a player, I knew I wanted to be in
2:53
baseball. Baseball is my first love and
2:55
passion. I love it more than anything
2:56
else in the world. And I think like most players,
2:59
you kind of fall in and out of love with it over the years and,
3:02
and being on this side is really like re sparked my love for it
3:06
and the reason why I played and wanted to become a big leaguer
3:08
in my childhood and through high school and college and things
3:11
like that. But I think the, the perspective
3:13
that I've been able to, to take with it has more so been 1
3:18
rooted in like, how can I have an immediate impact on players
3:23
with the things that I maybe didn't have or didn't have
3:27
success with. And so initially, you know, I
3:30
wanted to become an agent, I wanted to do stuff on like the,
3:33
the sports law side. I plan on going to law school
3:36
and, and becoming an agent and trying to make an impact on, on
3:39
that side of things. My goal or the, the thought
3:42
process or just like pipe dream that I had was how do I create
3:45
an agency or a, a, a system where we could take players and
3:52
help them develop, not just buy them a pair of cleats and a bat
3:55
or a glove. And how do we take guy that
3:58
maybe be undrafted and help him become drafted, Take a 20th
4:02
rounder and make him a 10th rounder.
4:03
Take a 10th rounder and tournament of 5th rounder, 5th
4:05
rounder, a first rounder, a first rounder and an All Star,
4:08
right? How do we, how do we instill a
4:10
process in place to to make players better and help them get
4:13
to the big leagues or help them achieve what they want to
4:15
achieve, not just like financially support them or
4:18
support them with gear and and brand deals.
4:21
That obviously shifted over the course of my playing career.
4:24
Understanding that those sectors are sort of separated.
4:28
And so now what I like to think that we do or the role that I
4:32
play is more so that like developmental agent.
4:35
And so that's how I kind of see what we're doing evolve,
4:38
especially with the the ability to kind of reach people from a
4:41
remote standpoint and things like that.
4:43
That's sort of the gist of it, right?
4:44
I started out wanting to be in like the, the law aspect of it,
4:48
the agency side doing arbitrations.
4:50
And then it turned into, OK, I'm really into the, the bio
4:52
mechanic side of this. I'm really into the, the health
4:55
and rehabilitation side of it, the skill acquisition, the stuff
4:58
that actually helps players be really good high school, college
5:01
and and professionals. So yeah, that's how we got here,
5:03
I guess was. There a moment that you can call
5:08
on that you had that shift. Was it during a rehab when you
5:11
were trying to get back on the field, or was it just the
5:14
question mark of all my mechanics?
5:16
They look so good when I'm getting this biomech capture
5:20
done, but for whatever reason I'm not getting the results.
5:24
Was it one of those kind of things?
5:26
Yeah, I think a little bit of both for sure.
5:27
I think you hit the nail on the head there.
5:28
I remember a specific time actually during my rehab from TJ
5:32
with the Padres. Our director of rehab was
5:35
awesome. I learned so much from him.
5:37
Tanner Fields. I don't know if you ever ever
5:39
came across it. Was a little before us.
5:41
Gotcha. Yeah.
5:42
So Tanner one day asked me like what I wanted to do after
5:45
baseball. And it was the first time I ever
5:47
realized like, hey, maybe I'm not too stupid to to have a
5:51
career in baseball after playing.
5:52
But he was just like, man, like I think you understand this
5:55
stuff a little, little bit more than the average person or like
5:57
the average player that has come in the training room.
6:00
I was really like nerded out about how to get my elbow back
6:04
in into full health. And I was nerded out about how
6:06
to get my my throwback and what I had to do physically and, and
6:11
mentally. He basically was like, I could
6:13
see you just going into to coaching right after like fairly
6:17
quickly. And it kind of shifted my
6:19
perspective on it because I felt at times as a player that I was
6:23
super lost in my rehab and super lost in what I was doing.
6:25
It wasn't until COVID kind of hit and I got sent back to to
6:29
Rhode Island and I got to work with one of my mentors and best
6:31
friends, John Deroy, who's now the director of pitching and
6:35
performance at Arizona, that I started to like have a good
6:39
understanding of what I was doing coming back from that
6:42
injury. And then on the other side of
6:43
things, once I was healthy, I failed a ton in pro ball was
6:48
nothing like I had experienced in college.
6:50
We had all the information, but I didn't know how to use it.
6:53
And I felt like players around me didn't know how to use it.
6:56
And I unfortunately, I spent so much time trying to overcome
6:59
injuries that I never got a chance to like work on skill
7:01
acquisition or, or pitch strategy or, or pitch design
7:04
stuff or like arsenal shaping. And obviously in 21 it was big,
7:08
but it wasn't what it is now. The information that is out
7:10
there is, is vast compared to them, I guess if you're looking
7:14
in the right places. But that sort of sparked me to
7:18
be like, OK, like these gaps should be bridged.
7:20
It's not just throw hard and get back on the field, but it's how
7:24
do we mold someone into becoming a big leaguer?
7:27
How do we use the information in front of us to to increase
7:30
performance? And then from there, did you
7:33
have some sort of a breakthrough, whether it was
7:37
with yourself or maybe one of your teammates that you were
7:40
rehabbing alongside, or I'm sure you had communications with high
7:45
school or college buddies that you probably still helped with
7:48
their own processes. So was there something that you
7:51
either passed along or witnessed that was the like, shoot, I've
7:55
never thought about it this way before.
7:58
That's, that's different. I can use this.
8:02
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a ton of times it's hard to to
8:04
single out like a specific moment in that.
8:08
But just my first time being in a in a clubhouse in professional
8:14
baseball, I was surrounded by Major League guys who are going
8:18
through similar processes. It was like Pako Rodriguez and
8:22
Matt Strom had both had surgery like the days next to me.
8:25
I ended up being in a fantasy Football League with like Adam
8:27
Warren and, and, and so I was like thrust into professional
8:32
baseball with guys 10 plus years older than me who are going
8:37
through the same injury process. And Anderson Espinoza was
8:39
another one of those guys who just had a second TJ when I had
8:42
my first TJ. So I was like fortunate in a
8:45
way, looking back now to be around a ton of really high
8:49
level players that were going through the rehab side.
8:51
And then just super fortunate that the Padres had the internal
8:54
base of, of the rehab work that they were doing.
8:57
Like I, I think they were one of the best from a rehabilitation
9:00
standpoint at the time and just was able to learn a ton.
9:03
But then it really came like when I was very much struggling
9:06
with understanding how to get my throwback and how to get back to
9:10
who I was as a player prior to my injury.
9:13
It was the first time I really realized that like understanding
9:17
movement, understanding like how the body can organize, how your
9:21
body specifically should organize can equate to throwing
9:25
harder and having more health success.
9:28
That's I think that I think was the shift for me.
9:30
I mean, then when I sort of started like being a little
9:33
weird with it and getting chaotic and, and introducing my
9:36
own methods and things like that.
9:38
And I, I jumped in, in MPH and kind of turned some heads and
9:44
within teammates and, and staff. And they started asking me
9:47
questions like, Hey, why do you do that?
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And why do you do this and how do I do this?
9:51
Is there a way for me to throw harder?
9:53
And I wasn't even coaching that time, but I remember I would sit
9:55
down at the table at the complex and I have like 3 or 4 guys
9:58
asking me like, hey, man, like how did you gain 3-4 miles an
10:02
hour? And during COVID, you know, so
10:05
it's, I think there is just a lot of different little moments
10:08
that through my own kind of self exploration and through the
10:11
grace of some incredible mentors, I just built a fairly
10:14
good knowledge base. And I still don't think I know
10:16
half of what the industry as a whole knows.
10:18
That's I guess the other side of it is like being completely
10:22
vulnerable to understanding that you don't know anything, which I
10:25
think just drives us to to want to learn more.
10:27
But yeah, I can't specifically dial it down anyone specific
10:30
moment, but I would say it's just a whole ton of compiled
10:34
events and moments of like getting to learn from really
10:37
high level people. And I don't think many people
10:40
get the opportunity to do that. So I'm very blessed and grateful
10:43
to have gotten that experience for sure.
10:45
There's two things I want to call out as have a way to pay
10:49
respect to you on these things. One, you mentioning
10:52
vulnerability and how huge that is, especially when you are
10:56
around so many people in industry that is so vast,
11:00
recognizing that you don't know it all.
11:02
And there are different bits and pieces that you can learn.
11:05
And even if you don't like something that somebody else
11:08
does, you can use that as confirmation of something that
11:11
you already do, or you can say to yourself, you know what?
11:15
That's not for me. And that's OK, No matter what
11:18
you're learning, if you're vulnerable to what's going on
11:20
around you. And then the second piece there
11:22
is your willingness to take chances or experiment on
11:27
yourself with different things that you already have in your
11:30
tool belt or maybe connected from a previous experience that
11:33
you have, like, oh, why don't I try this?
11:36
And for you, these things worked out.
11:38
I'm sure not everything you tried worked out, but the fact
11:41
that you were able to piece a few things together and gain
11:44
success from it and then communicate your own story from
11:48
there probably opened up a lot of doors and resulted in greater
11:52
communication or connection to those around you.
11:55
So good on you. Absolutely, I agree.
11:58
I think the best coaches in this industry and the ones that I
12:01
look up to and will cling to for a long time and in my own growth
12:06
as a coach are the ones that are just entirely egoless.
12:09
It's really cool to hear people in positions that you admire,
12:12
like talk about the idea that they think they know nothing.
12:16
I just think it just drives progression and it drives like
12:19
this internal burning desire to want to be better in what we do
12:23
in our professions. And I think it's incredibly
12:25
important and it's awesome to be rooted in your own information,
12:29
to be confident as a coach and confident in the information
12:32
that you know and understand and that that is at this point in
12:35
time, facts. But understanding that those
12:38
things can change and things grow and develop.
12:40
And, and as we get more information and as this industry
12:43
continues to drive in a more data-driven, driven direction,
12:47
like more things become solved. So as a coach, we just can't
12:50
stop learning and adapting to those things that change because
12:54
we're doing a disservice for our players that we don't.
12:57
So yeah, I think it takes a ton of vulnerability.
12:59
It takes a ton of just egoless learning.
13:01
And it also takes, like you said, the ability to be able to
13:05
internally assess what is right, what is wrong, what's going to
13:09
fit your strategy, and then pair that with the thousands of
13:13
different personality types that you may come across when
13:16
addressing or talking to or trying to apply things to a
13:18
player. It's very rare that I ever talk
13:21
about my own playing career with my athletes or with any clients.
13:25
I'm hard pressed to do it because I want them to
13:28
understand that I have an understanding of what they need
13:30
to do from A1A scientific side, but to also just from their
13:36
vision or their view, what is going to help them.
13:39
Because what helped me 6 foot left-handed pitcher who is not
13:43
super athletic and was hybrid in his rib cage and things like
13:47
that is not going to help A66 right-handed pitcher.
13:50
Like it's just not applicable in the same way.
13:53
I'm sure there's certain things that that are, but it just
13:55
generally isn't. So I typically stay away from my
13:59
own playing career when I coach, but it is great to have that
14:02
reference. That makes a ton of sense.
14:06
And while you were running through that, I was thinking,
14:09
have you noticed a shift in the way you approach baseball
14:15
training now that you have shifted more from playing to
14:19
coaching, Are you thinking about things more globally or do you
14:23
still think about yourself first?
14:26
This is more a philosophical thing.
14:28
I don't think there's a right or wrong here.
14:30
I'm just intrigued by your own process of going from high level
14:34
thrower to high level coach. Right.
14:36
So I think it's rooted in kind of what we were talking about
14:38
before we we got fully on the call.
14:41
It's performance first, right? So what I tend to do is where I
14:46
struggled and tying this into your question, where I struggle
14:49
is prior performance. I did not have a very successful
14:52
career from a from an output standpoint.
14:54
I struggled when it came time to to getting guys out.
14:57
I was not prepared to do that. Whether that was the health
15:00
side, whether that was the Arsenal side, whether that was
15:02
just a lack of ability at certain times.
15:04
I knew that there was a huge gap missing at the end of the day.
15:07
Like I can humbly look in the mirror and say that that was
15:10
part of the reason why I'm not in the major leagues, and that's
15:12
fine. So everything that I feel that
15:14
we do is driven and player performance first.
15:17
So whatever the level is, whether it's a big leaguer or
15:20
whether it's a minor league or whether it's a high school guy
15:22
or a college guy, what is the performance?
15:25
Why is the performance really good or why is it really bad or
15:29
why is it mediocre or why is it average or why is this player
15:32
not living up to what he thinks he could be or or maybe the
15:35
inverse, why is this player really, really good and how do
15:38
we keep him good? And so I think it's all rude in
15:40
performance, right? And maybe that goes down into
15:43
that larger spider web of, of the sectors like we kind of
15:46
chatted about. Is the player not performing
15:48
because he is struggling to be healthy?
15:51
Is something from the throw standpoint causing him to be in
15:55
pain frequently? Is it causing him to not be able
15:58
to recover or hold his velocity throughout a season?
16:01
Is he falling stagnant because the body's not in the right
16:03
condition to to be able to perform?
16:05
Is it an Arsenal thing, right? Does the Arsenal match what the
16:09
strategy he's trying to elicit us, right?
16:12
Does he have the weapons to get guys out?
16:15
Does he have the ability to understand what his arsenal does
16:17
from a location strategy standpoint, from a sequence
16:20
strategy standpoint? Is he aware of who he's facing
16:23
and what his strengths are versus certain hitters week to
16:26
week? Does he have that information?
16:28
Is he using that information? Does he know how to apply it?
16:31
We know guys who can 100% take a, a list of, of data that I
16:35
would present them and be like, yeah, I got, I understand it.
16:38
And we also know guys that that would Dome them up pretty fast
16:41
finding that, that even ground. And then is it a skill
16:44
acquisition or an output issue? Is it they don't throw hard
16:48
enough, they don't command the ball well enough, They're not
16:51
able to do those things. So I think finding why they're
16:55
inefficient performance wise and then finding the cause of why
16:58
they're inefficient and then trying to reverse engineer it
17:01
with, OK, how do we, how do we bolster your superpower and make
17:05
you really, really good and really comfortable with what you
17:08
already do really well? And then how do we improve?
17:11
What is the glaring reason why you are not having success
17:14
currently? And I think especially in this
17:16
industry, a lot of times that can be missed because a lot of
17:19
times we're so focused on like output and development of just
17:22
skill acquisition and we we miss why are we actually trying to
17:27
enhance or improve skill. You brought up so many different
17:31
things there that you need to assess when it comes to a given
17:35
player, whether they can be good at it, bad at it, mediocre,
17:40
average, whatever adjective we want to throw on it, it doesn't
17:43
particularly matter. But you have so many different
17:45
things to assess. And then maybe sprinkle some
17:49
time and effort into on the training side.
17:51
Now when you interact with one of the individuals that maybe
17:56
they're just numb to everything and they've just always been
18:00
good, but they've hit the they've hit the plateau for the
18:03
first time in their life. How do you begin to introduce
18:09
those sorts of, I don't know, statistical points,
18:14
biomechanical markers, arsenal design, anything that you just
18:18
brought up? If someone has never had an
18:20
appetite to it all, it can be extremely overwhelming if
18:24
they're getting exposed to it for the first time.
18:26
So how do you go about that? Yeah.
18:29
So I could use 2 extreme case studies or examples and I don't
18:33
think either of them will mind me kind of talking about them.
18:35
So it starts I think with player personality type understanding
18:39
that every player is going to receive information differently
18:41
and every player is going to respond to information
18:43
differently. Me coming from the big NE
18:45
Italian family in my own playing career, like I really responded
18:49
well to like guys being on my butt.
18:51
Like Coach Mackay, UConn, I knew he could just scream at me
18:55
through the brick wall and I was going to listen and I was going
18:57
to figure it out. Other players, they might take a
19:00
more analytical approach and that's not a bad thing, right?
19:03
Like being able to present information and data to them and
19:06
say, here's why and here's what you're doing from a movement
19:08
standpoint. Maybe that player might even
19:10
understand those things more than I do.
19:12
And then there's other players that, like you said, they fit
19:14
that mold of like they've always been good.
19:16
Yelling at them doesn't do anything.
19:17
Getting upset with them doesn't do anything.
19:19
So you have to find the ability to, to use the, the good
19:22
information and maybe they don't want to be bogged down by the
19:25
more analytical or more like science based stuff.
19:29
And they just want the, the root have to find a way to present
19:32
that information in a way that the player will be comfortable
19:34
hearing. SO2 case studies kind of popping
19:36
to mind. One is Jack Hartman, who is
19:38
hopefully will be in AAA with the the Rays this year.
19:41
He finished up in Montgomery last year, who I got the chance
19:44
to start working with in in 2023.
19:46
And then our our guy Sean at at Princeton Episcopo, Sean is who
19:53
is such a different guy than Jack.
19:55
Jack is this really athletic, was a shortstop, became a
20:01
pitcher. Ben and Alec did such a great
20:04
job with him, like turning him into a pitcher and creating a 98
20:07
mile an hour thrower. And this guy who could just
20:09
bulldoze through lineups in the back end of the pen who's had a
20:13
really good minor league career so far and I think will be a big
20:16
leaguer. And then Sean, who is this
20:19
really, really smart dude at Princeton?
20:21
Who? Understands the body,
20:23
understands how he moves, understands things from a kin
20:28
standpoint. He's in school for what we're
20:31
talking about. And he's just a very, very smart
20:33
dude. And you know, you've worked with
20:35
him through Flex Pro. So he understands things at a
20:38
different level than most players do.
20:40
And so with Jack, he was really struggling when we met and it
20:43
was like he'd walked eleven guys in the first month of the
20:46
season. He struggled to find command.
20:49
And because of it, his, his confidence was wavering, his
20:52
fastball became inefficient. He was slightly cutting it and
20:54
having a ton of inadvertent cut. He wasn't getting ahead.
20:57
His, his first bit strikes were like, I think, I don't know, I
21:00
don't want to throw in numbers, but it was close to like 17 or
21:03
20%. He was really, really struggling
21:05
to get ahead of guys. He wasn't really using his
21:07
arsenal the way that I thought he could.
21:09
And, and we did a lot of reverse engineering to figure that out.
21:12
And so with Jack walking the 1st 11 guys of the year, having an
21:16
11 year A, he's going out to the mound every night in Charleston
21:19
and looking up at the scoreboard and seeing guys hitting 400 the
21:23
first month of the season. He knows he's walked eleven.
21:26
He knows he can't get ahead of everybody.
21:27
And then he also turns around and sees a scoreboard and says
21:29
he has an 11 year A. And so entirely deflating for a
21:33
player who was a little bit older for the level and knew he
21:37
had the talent to to get to AAA and get to the big leagues,
21:39
right. What I told him was for the next
21:42
month, he was like not going to throw anything other than a
21:44
first pitch slider. His first pitch slider strike
21:49
percentage was like through the roof at the time.
21:51
I think it was like 75 or 77% in zone or, or probability for
21:56
strike. And so I was just like, Jack,
21:58
why don't we just go first pitch slider every single hitter for
22:01
the next month, see what happens.
22:03
It's like we know you're coming out of the game, you're coming
22:06
out of the gate, your, your adrenaline's pumping, your
22:08
brains going like crazy. You're trying to throw a ball
22:11
100 and it's just nowhere in the zone anytime, right?
22:14
You the first pitch strike percentage, like I said, was
22:16
around that like 20% mark. And so we said, let's just go,
22:19
let's just go first pitch sliders.
22:21
And then we, we took a step back and tried to find a way to
22:24
understand why the fastball was having an inverted cut.
22:27
And so the second part of that was once we establish the
22:29
slider, once we know that you can play the game and you don't
22:32
have to be at a deficit every single time you go out.
22:35
Now we can say, OK, why is the fastball cutting?
22:38
And why is the fastball lacking command?
22:40
And it was 2 fairly simple things.
22:42
It was one, it was focal point strategy.
22:44
And two, understanding that because the shape was not what
22:48
he was expecting to throw, that focal point strategy was like
22:51
way off, right? So we worked on like changing
22:54
the axis of the ball in his hand, slightly tweaking the
22:57
throw to get the arm back into plane.
22:59
Fortunately, the fastball shape started cleaning up.
23:02
And once the fastball shape started cleaning up, we paired
23:04
this with the idea that he had started being in zone because
23:07
now he's throwing his best pitch, his most frequent in zone
23:10
pitch, more often for a strike. Now we pair that with an ability
23:13
to throw a fastball for a strike because of the understanding of
23:17
what the what the flight of the ball is doing at the time and
23:19
what his location strategy was. And now the third part of that
23:22
is now he has all the confidence in the world because he has an
23:25
individualized planning against every hitter and he can see, OK,
23:29
wait, I actually am good. Like the advanced stats tell me
23:32
that I actually will get these guys out, that I'm much better
23:35
than this level. And that even though I'm seeing
23:37
a 10 year array because I had a tough month, I know that my
23:40
stuff and my strategy and my ability is good enough.
23:44
And we didn't have to throw a bunch of numbers at him.
23:46
It was very like rudimentary numbers.
23:49
Actually, they were very, very stock, but he had those numbers
23:54
now he became a lot more confident with it.
23:55
With Sean, it's like the total other end of the spectrum.
23:58
Sean had a OK freshman year. He fluctuated Velo eyes.
24:02
I think he operated more so around that like 91 to 2 range
24:06
and would occasionally touch threes and fours.
24:08
I know he had a 5 earlier in the season, but your shoulder really
24:10
didn't hold up a ton and the body wasn't in a great spot to
24:14
be able to withstand what he's going to do this year.
24:16
And so we got a chance to get together last summer and, and
24:19
change a couple things with how he was moving.
24:22
We got his shoulder back into a position where 1, He had the
24:25
range of motion to, to be able to do the things that he wanted
24:28
to do. Understanding like his turn a
24:29
little bit better, understanding what we wanted to do from from a
24:32
rotational aspect. There was a window where he just
24:35
put a Golf Club in his hand and we were like, swing the Golf
24:38
Club as hard as you can. I think he was hitting like 200
24:41
ball speed or something like that and like driving the ball
24:44
almost 400 yards in his and his simulator.
24:47
And so he would just hit a ball as hard as he could and then
24:49
pick up a baseball right away and throw it.
24:51
And, and so like Sean knew like the biomechanical reasons behind
24:55
why this was going to work. And we talked about those
24:57
things. We talked about like where his
25:00
arm was in in the plane and, and where his segmentation was with
25:03
his pelvis and his ribs and why as a, as a hybrid, like he's
25:07
going to move a specific way and what his load strategies look
25:10
like. And you could really get into
25:12
the weeds with that because he understood it.
25:14
And and then he has this massive jump.
25:17
We're now in pre season. He's sitting 95 1/2 and topping
25:20
out near 97. And you have this gigantic
25:24
sustained velocity increase. And it's not that he got a ton
25:29
more athletic, but he started to understand what he needs to do
25:32
from an organization standpoint, from an attempt standpoint and
25:35
then understands the superpower. Not just like, Oh, I I feel it
25:39
like he he gets why. It's it's really incredible to
25:41
understand that he gets why. And so to see him have a jump
25:44
like that in to your point, it's the two different spectrums.
25:48
How do I talk to a player? What is the need with Jack?
25:52
He already threw 98, he just wasn't in zone and he wasn't
25:55
throwing his best pitch enough. So it's like, OK, let's just do
25:57
that. It was Sean.
25:59
It's like there's a clear issue here.
26:01
You're not able to be the pitcher you want because you're
26:03
moving a certain way. You're throwing 9192, but we
26:06
know you could eventually sit 949496, which you are now and
26:11
then pair that up with now the outputs there.
26:13
So we can add five different shape profiles and you can throw
26:16
the whole mix of true shapes and, and that's how we're going
26:20
to get better at performance this year.
26:22
And so it's the two ends of the spectrum with a guy that's
26:24
already throwing 98, why is he not having success?
26:28
How do we, how do we fix that problem?
26:30
And then with a guy that maybe isn't there yet, how do we get
26:33
him to that point? And so that that would be like
26:35
those two case study examples of the two ends of the spectrum.
26:38
And again, different, very different personality types.
26:41
Close enough stories that shows like it works.
26:45
And I love that the strategies for success are different.
26:50
Also, they came during different times of the baseball calendar,
26:55
which I think is really valuable.
26:57
What you discussed with Jack with the Rays, you guys made an
27:01
in season adjustment that he could immediately apply to game
27:06
success. I think that gets missed a lot
27:10
when a couple of nerds get on a phone call and I want to talk
27:13
about finger forces in data and how fast guys can flex their
27:19
hand. And maybe you're going to talk
27:22
about internal rotation speeds of the shoulder or angles of the
27:28
thoracic spine, stuff like that. We can have those discussions,
27:32
but then you can also look at a player and say dude, throw your
27:36
slider more, you'll be fine. I think the best part of it is
27:40
like Jack walked eleven the first month and then I think he
27:43
only walked 11 or 12 for the rest of the year.
27:46
I think that's where players miss and I missed as a player.
27:49
And yeah, I'm sure you've been around guys that like they have
27:52
a horrible month or they're in like horrible state of their
27:54
career and they think they have to like, Oh well, next offseason
27:57
I'll figure it out. But in reality, it's like, what
27:59
can I do now to to make the adjustments so that I saved my
28:02
season or I essentially saved my career at that point?
28:06
Or what do I do as a high? A college freshman who didn't
28:08
get a ton of innings or did get a ton of innings and didn't do
28:11
as well as they believed they could have or ends up in the
28:14
portal and then at a new place or a JUCO.
28:18
And it's like, what do I do to get better?
28:20
Like it has to be rooted in in what you're saying.
28:23
Like it has to be rooted in, OK, it's great that we understand
28:26
stuff at a high level, but it has to be applied for the
28:29
players. It's the biggest piece.
28:31
Let's take a little bit of a deeper dive on the scenario you
28:36
describe with Jack. And not that I don't want to
28:38
show Sean Love. Sean, hopefully you're on the
28:41
podcast now at some point. I just need you and your Ivy
28:44
League schedule to start to work for me.
28:47
Yeah, Sean, much love to you, but sticking with the story with
28:50
Jack. Now we're going to turn it into
28:52
a little bit of a hypothetical situation.
28:54
Let's say that the fix that you guys came up with was more of a
28:59
Band-Aid type strategy rather than a long term fix.
29:03
So if that's more of a Band-Aid type strategy, maybe what are
29:07
you looking into next as a coach?
29:10
So I, I know we're starting to get away from the story you just
29:13
explained, but I'm sure we've all been a part of those type of
29:16
situations where in game success matters because you need Jack to
29:20
see another day in professional baseball.
29:24
And if you don't make that fix, that line is getting shorter and
29:28
shorter and then it falls on you or maybe the whole team to look
29:33
together at, OK, we know we're just doing this to live to see
29:38
another day. Now how do we take the next
29:40
step? So where, where would you
29:42
potentially go next in those? Situations I completely agree
29:45
and I it's funny because I joke with the players all the time.
29:48
It's like you're training to become better, but a lot of this
29:52
game is like buying yourself enough time to become the player
29:56
that you know you can be, right? And so obviously Jack can't just
29:59
go into a big league game and throw first pitch slider every
30:03
single time for the rest of his career.
30:04
He's not doing that now. The change two years ago and we
30:08
constantly have tweaked and changed things and the slider
30:11
shape has gotten different and the fastball shape has gotten
30:13
different. We've added pitches and we've
30:15
changed location strategies and, and understanding his attack
30:18
plans. But I think it's rooted in like
30:20
this understanding and belief, if that like your attack
30:24
strategies and your, your arsenal are ever changing.
30:27
Hitters are like a virus. They're going to constantly
30:29
adapt to certain game plans. They're they're going to linger
30:32
and they're going to stay around and they're going to struggle
30:34
for a little bit. And then we see different trends
30:36
of past come back and we say we see new trends evolve and
30:39
change. I think it's glaring with the
30:41
idea like the curve balls might be coming back, like we'll
30:44
probably see a spike in it like in curveball usage this year
30:47
because the sweeper and because like slider profiles have become
30:51
so used, like hitters are going to adapt to the attack blends
30:54
that are that are presented in front of them.
30:56
So I think it's staying up on what is actually occurring and
31:00
where the performance is going and evolving and how it's
31:04
blending and giving players the tools to be able to make those
31:08
changes on the fly. Because what worked for you in
31:10
May is not going to work for you in August.
31:12
What work for you in August is not going to work for you in
31:15
spring training the following year.
31:16
There are constants and there are things that like if you do
31:19
them really well, keep doing them, but understand how to how
31:23
to use them in different ways moving forward and, and how to
31:26
how to add and subtract and change the different strategies.
31:29
I know it sounds like a cop out to the question, but it really
31:32
is more something I think where it's it's evolutional and it and
31:36
it changes based on on the state of the game.
31:39
So as players make adjustments, I think they do become more
31:42
adapt to add certain things to their games or to their attack
31:46
plans that will help them as they see that that impact where
31:50
they've gotten better in one area, I think it opens up the
31:52
door for them to understand, hey, like adding a pitch or
31:55
changing a strategy or getting better physically is not this
31:59
tall task that I have to face. And I think it just comes with
32:02
like, continuously bolstering and understanding who they are
32:04
as players. I kind of can't get over you
32:07
calling hitters a virus, and I think that might be the single
32:11
greatest description of how hitters operate to trends I've
32:15
ever heard. Yeah, I got AI got a shout out
32:18
my buddy, one of my best friends who is our director of analytics
32:21
with the Waves last year, who helped me with with some of the
32:24
Jack stuff in 23 when he was just graduating with his masters
32:28
in analytics. And one of my best friends, he
32:29
works for DraftKings now. And so he'd always equated that
32:33
we'd always, like talked about that, like hitters or virus.
32:36
But yeah. Yeah, I I wanted to start to
32:41
think of the next super in depth question where I was going to go
32:44
off of that. And of course then I just turned
32:47
it into, OK, when I coach again, what are ways I can set this up?
32:52
How can I organize drills where we lean into the virality of
32:57
hitters? And I went into practice and
33:00
drill design as a coach and I realized that has nothing to do
33:03
with our podcast. So I'm just going to say hand
33:06
up. Sorry.
33:07
I got really caught up on a really good line and got stuck
33:11
on it. Love it that's.
33:13
Great. So I'm going to attempt to pull
33:15
off maybe a terrible segue of getting stuck on something and
33:20
refusing to see anything else going on around you.
33:25
I'm sure you dealt with that as a player.
33:27
I'm sure you deal with that currently as a coach when you
33:30
speak with your athletes. How do you maybe show someone
33:33
the light when they are so stuck in the mud on one specific
33:39
thing, Issue, metric, whatever. Yeah.
33:43
I mean, that's a good question. I think it kind of roots back
33:47
in, in boils down to like, does it matter or does it not matter?
33:51
And is the thing that they're chasing tangible or not?
33:54
And so it's, it's depending on the the scenario.
33:58
But if an athlete's like struggling with something that
34:00
they think they, they need to be good at, it's assessing, do they
34:04
actually need to be good at that thing?
34:06
Or is it something that they're just thinking that they need?
34:09
So again, it's all rooted based back in performance.
34:12
Like if it, if the performance doesn't state that they need
34:15
that, then it's probably not worth it.
34:16
Kind of a similar thing like you probably seen like Ben and, and
34:19
praise and, and, and what not like tweet about it or, or post
34:23
on Instagram about. It's like feel is such an
34:25
arbitrary thing. We shouldn't really chase it too
34:28
often. Like feels great because it
34:30
gives you an understanding from a player like acquisition
34:33
standpoint from for them internally to like understand
34:36
why they're trying to do certain things or if they're trying to
34:39
throw harder, if they're trying to throw a certain pitch, like
34:41
they have to internally understand what it feels like to
34:44
do it. But basing things solely off
34:46
feel or what the video looks like.
34:48
A lot of times we'll just drive players crazy.
34:50
So keeping them away from that. Like we, we say it all the time,
34:54
but it's like players have to understand that they are output
34:57
performance athletes. They're not dancers, so it
35:00
doesn't matter what it looks like.
35:01
It more so matters like what are the results we're getting and
35:04
what is the what is the ball reading as?
35:08
It has to just be rooted in performance.
35:11
But if it's not rooted in performance and it's kind of BS.
35:15
Yeah, I, I like that and I want to.
35:18
So now I want to go down this rabbit hole a little bit.
35:20
The maybe tougher scenario here is a pitcher that you're working
35:25
with is doing something. It reads great on a track man
35:28
plot. It's getting results in game,
35:31
but a player has to work really hard to find the grip.
35:37
They they really struggle to make this feel comfortable or
35:40
natural. Is that just an ongoing process
35:43
of gaining comfortability? Or if you are dealing in that
35:47
situation with one of your athletes, are you trying to find
35:50
another solution to the same problem?
35:54
Yeah, it really depends because I think the majority of the
35:57
athletes are like they don't care how they get the results.
36:00
They just kind of want them because we are just like we are
36:03
a results based society that we're constantly having to push
36:06
the envelope of like process driven.
36:10
I think if a player is uncomfortable with something
36:13
that they're doing for the first time, that's very new, more
36:15
often than not, that's going to be a really beneficial thing
36:18
because at the very least it means that we're trying to get
36:20
out of our comfort zone and do something that they haven't done
36:22
before. And generally like that's
36:24
typically a good thing, especially with a guy that may
36:26
not throw hard or may not may never have had a breaking ball
36:30
or didn't know how to throw a change it before.
36:32
But then they start to see that output and maybe it doesn't feel
36:35
like how it's always felt. It can be different.
36:39
But what I will say on that is like from a skill or like a, a
36:43
movement acquisition standpoint or motor learning standpoint, if
36:46
it feels different or it feels uncomfortable, more often than
36:49
not, it's probably closer to what we want.
36:52
I think our brain sort of like from a movement standpoint, have
36:56
this governor's cap or understanding of what that needs
37:00
to do to apply output. And there is like a, a, a
37:04
baseline for output. Like say a guy throws 91, their
37:08
body and brain organized to throw 91, right?
37:11
And so if I do things differently or I do things away
37:15
from that, I have to rewrite what my brain understands output
37:19
could possibly be because of that cap is on that 9091 range
37:23
and I'm moving a specific way and I'm afraid to change those
37:26
movements or push the envelope with that.
37:28
Then I never rewrite how my brain perceives it to be 959697.
37:33
If I can do that and I can understand it like I'm not
37:37
defined by like what I'm preconceived as from a movement
37:41
standpoint. I think that's when a lot of
37:43
guys make those breakthroughs, they become comfortable with
37:46
being uncomfortable from a movement standpoint.
37:49
They, they start to understand new patterns or change the way
37:52
they, they acquire motor skills. And so I think it ultimately
37:57
helps them understanding that, understanding that just because
38:00
it's how your brain perceives movement, it doesn't have to be
38:04
the end all be all. Like they can change the way
38:06
that they organize. And, and again, I think it
38:09
removes the governor's cap. It removes the idea that like
38:12
your brain has already learned how to do something in a
38:15
specific way in order to achieve the output that you want.
38:18
That might have to be rewritten a little bit.
38:21
Do you mind going down this path a little bit, maybe as a case
38:25
study or something you've experienced with one of your
38:28
athletes or in your own career where you ran into the cap and
38:33
the plan that you guys created, how you got around it, So maybe
38:37
diving into the training that you actually tried?
38:42
Yeah. I think it's obviously it's
38:44
rooted in like, OK, what are their biases?
38:47
How do they move already? What's their structure like?
38:50
And then where do we go from there, right?
38:52
So. Quick timeout.
38:53
So even if you could go as detailed as explaining like,
38:57
which biases you're looking at something like.
38:59
That, yeah, we're looking for, obviously, like, how do the hips
39:05
move? How does the arm work?
39:07
How is the body structured? Where is the rib cage?
39:10
Where are they preset? What do they have ranges in
39:12
motion for? How does the spine segment?
39:15
I know you've heard Ben talk a ton about spinal engine theory
39:18
and things like that, but just how does player organizer move
39:20
to create output? Initially one from a mobility
39:24
standpoint and from a strength based standpoint, and then two
39:27
from a throw standpoint, reverse engineering the throw to see
39:31
like 5 stages of the throw, meaning like potential energy
39:35
phase. So their leg lift or loading
39:36
phase, their ability to transfer the center of mass through the
39:39
drop phase or through the linear move.
39:41
Understanding where they are at foot strike.
39:43
So when they start to apply force into the ground to send
39:45
back up to the ball. And then how the body segments
39:48
in order to put impulse into the ball, how long they apply
39:51
impulse to the ball and how well they can do that through the
39:54
catcher, right? And where is there where is
39:56
their momentum, where is their direction.
39:58
So once we kind of established those things, where is the leak,
40:01
Where is there a miss point within the throw, then we can
40:06
talk about why. So similar to when we have a
40:08
case of like performance, hey, this guy's not getting outs
40:11
because of this. It's, I think in my viewpoint
40:14
the same way we can see movement.
40:15
So where is the issue that we're seeing velocity being lost?
40:20
Where is the issue where we're seeing output being lost?
40:23
Is that a mobility issue? Is that a strength issue?
40:26
Is that a movement issue? Is it a movement issue because
40:28
mobility is affecting it? Are they super compressed in
40:31
their upper T spine? Are they lacking the ability to
40:34
rotate? Are they attempting rotation
40:36
poorly, right? Are they super wide ISA and
40:39
they're trying to twirl like a super narrow mover?
40:42
Are they biasing into extension early because they don't
40:45
understand how to hold rib cage and pelvic association?
40:49
So I think it's finding the root from the throw, understanding
40:53
how they move and bias from an anatomical standpoint and then
40:57
finding the fix, finding what they need to specifically get
41:00
better at to make those changes. So I like to kind of start like
41:03
what can we do from an attempt standpoint or from a First off
41:08
like acquisition standpoint or like awareness standpoint to
41:13
make a maybe an immediate change.
41:15
Are they a guy that like the shoulder just wants to pull
41:18
open, they get into extension early, maybe setting them
41:21
slightly deeper into internal rotation in their front shoulder
41:24
is going to keep the right side of the rib cage down longer.
41:27
And they won't buy us and do extension earlier because now
41:30
they have that anchor. Are they losing their load
41:34
because they kind of just rush forward and they try to create
41:37
this false drift so they never coil or they never actually load
41:40
into their into their right, right or left loop.
41:43
So finding I guess the initial attempt that might be breaking
41:47
them down. And then if they can't
41:49
immediately change the attempt behind it, if they can't
41:52
immediately like create a different impulse based on that,
41:56
then it I think more often than not it's a mobility issue or a
41:59
strength issue. Are they failing to be able to
42:04
load or transfer the center of mass because they have a poor
42:07
understanding of how to do it, or they just not strong enough?
42:11
Are they not capable of moving from from their left leg to the
42:14
right leg well enough? Or is it because they're
42:18
constantly anterior pelvic tilt and they're constantly forcing
42:21
their spine to extension early? So I think it's, it's rooted in
42:24
understanding the full throw and then compartmentalizing it and
42:29
taking it apart, seeing the attempt 1st.
42:31
And then if it's not an attempt issue, then more often than not
42:35
it's it's rooted in mobility or like they're just not athletic
42:38
enough in that specific area to be able to do the thing that
42:41
they're trying to attempt. And so we base a lot off of like
42:46
a constraint LED approach. So putting them in environments
42:50
or putting them in drill work that is going to create the
42:54
response that we want. So for example, Sean's a, Sean's
42:58
a really good person to kind of case study off of.
43:01
Sean being 9193, he was constantly trying to buy us a
43:05
new extension instead of actually creating rotation.
43:07
The elbow would be pretty low in the plane and the arm never like
43:12
was able to get to Max external rotation.
43:14
During his turn. He'd end up pushing through the
43:17
front of his shoulder and was kind of having some issues
43:19
there, kind of cleaning up the way he was rotating, getting the
43:22
rib cage to function more so around the spine, decompressing
43:26
the top part of the spine gave him the range of motion, the
43:29
ability slash awareness to how to move to be able to create a
43:34
more efficient turn. So he spent a ton of time in
43:36
like split stance positions where he was already kind of
43:40
preset to where he would be landing, where he would create
43:43
that fraction to the ground with his front leg where his pelvis
43:46
is already fully turned. And then getting him to learn
43:49
how to rotate and isolate the upper half from there.
43:52
And then it was like, OK, how do we now get you to transfer
43:55
center of mass into that position into your turn?
43:58
OK. And so he kind of joked around
44:01
earlier, like we used like him swinging a Golf Club because
44:03
when he swung a Golf Club, he was able to find that
44:05
segmentation of rotation. And so we took him from that
44:08
environment and immediately put a baseball on his hands.
44:10
And then it was like, OK, feel what you felt there.
44:14
It's I guess, putting the right constraints, the right layers of
44:17
the throw and and getting guys to understand the whys behind
44:23
them, but also just putting them in the right environment so that
44:25
over time they eventually end up throwing closer to what we want
44:29
from an output standpoint. Sticking on Sean's case study,
44:33
what made you think to have him pick up a Golf Club?
44:35
Is that just from getting to know him as an individual?
44:39
He was already hitting the ball like 400 yards or whatever it is
44:42
not the best golfer in the world.
44:43
I don't know, he he's already hitting the ball super hard and
44:49
he was rotating and like he sent me a video one day.
44:51
He's like, why can't I rotate like this when I throw a
44:53
baseball? And I was like, well, you can't,
44:55
right? And so again, like to your
44:57
point, a lot of it can, a lot of it does come from the player
45:00
side too, Like a lot of times, like what the player thinks
45:03
they're struggling at. They they often are.
45:05
But it showed like you have the capacity to do this with Sean,
45:09
it was kind of a hybrid of where it was like the mobility wasn't
45:12
great. What he was doing from a prep
45:14
standpoint wasn't great. We also just had to change his
45:18
thought process behind it too. I guess that's a good thought in
45:23
the player coach relationship or however you want to label those
45:28
terms. He showed you exactly what he
45:32
wanted to achieve, and then it's just on you to develop the
45:36
language or the program for him to connect the dots.
45:40
Right, for sure, for sure, more or less.
45:43
And again, like, I think that is essentially what all like
45:47
movement assessments or assessments for for throwing or
45:51
throwing evals are, right. Look, the players showing you
45:53
what you need to, what they need to be better AT.
45:56
And I think it's our job as coaches to be able to identify
45:58
that and put a plan in place to help them change those things.
46:00
So even if it's not them directly saying this is what I
46:03
need to get better at or this is where I lack, hey, this is what
46:06
I'm good at. This is what I'm bad at.
46:08
Like I think what I've learned from my mentors and things like
46:11
that is like you have to be able to identify those things because
46:14
you do do become their problem solvers in a sense.
46:17
Yeah. Like with some of the other
46:18
guys, like there's, there's plenty of case studies where the
46:20
majority of guys of what I've seen most struggle with is just
46:23
understanding center of mass transfer.
46:25
Like understanding how to like move the body from the rubber
46:28
down the slope and, and time it up correctly.
46:30
One from a directional standpoint, like direction of
46:32
where the rotations going and then to just like timing of
46:35
where they are at foot strike. So if, if that's not good, more
46:39
often than not, they like, they're not going to throw very
46:41
hard. And I think the labs sort of
46:43
prove that. And, and just like the timing of
46:45
where we can transfer forces. It's obviously a little bit
46:47
easier to see it in a lab, But when guys are kind of having
46:50
glaring issues with that, they, they tend to to, they tend to
46:53
pop up quick. It was something that popped up
46:54
with Sean and, and a few of my other players kind of just
46:57
thinking off off the off the Dome here with it.
46:59
But being able to identify certain things like that and
47:02
then having actual plans of attack to to correct them is is
47:06
super important. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions
47:09
here, but based on the couple athletes we've discussed, I
47:14
would think that if you are helping an athlete develop a
47:18
pregame routine or a bullpen prep type of routine, I'm going
47:23
to assume most of your athletes don't have a similar looking
47:27
process. Is that a fair guess?
47:30
You're totally right. I try to do as much like
47:34
personal to the player work as we can.
47:37
Obviously there's certain things that like sort of need to occur
47:40
they they need to be good at. So generally there are some
47:43
there are going to be some things that overlap, but like
47:46
what 6 foot Sean is going to get and what 64 Jack Hartman's going
47:51
to get. Different movers, different body
47:53
types, different structures are going to be wildly different.
47:56
And so understanding like anatomy enough to a point where
47:58
you can and play and, and change different things based on what
48:02
they need to get better at from a throw standpoint and have
48:04
those things be glaring within their movement preps or within
48:07
their pre throw or within their daily work, I think is extremely
48:10
important. And then also just depending on
48:12
the guy, making sure that they don't have to constantly rely on
48:15
like what they're immediately doing before they they pick up a
48:18
ball and throw, making sure that they're doing enough of that
48:20
like compound interest work that I like to call it that they are
48:23
able to like put their bodies in a position to be in a good spot.
48:26
I think the, the some of the spine stuff that we we've been
48:29
doing is, is definitely in that bucket.
48:31
But yeah, no, to your point, the majority of guys are all the
48:34
guys are are basically doing massively different things.
48:37
Again, there are some overlaps, there are some constant beliefs,
48:40
as there is with everything, but they all need to be rooted
48:43
differently depending on bias, depending on how they're they're
48:46
structured differently for sure. I worked hard to get us to this
48:51
point, and I say that because I told you before we pressed
48:56
record. I think one of the most
49:00
intriguing parts of your entire story is seeing you go from a
49:05
very meticulous player structuring your prep work and
49:09
watching you get ready for a side or a 25 pitch pen in the
49:15
offseason and do 2 hours of prep work for it.
49:20
To then hearing you get on Instagram and talk about going
49:25
to your UConn Alumni Day with no hat and no glove and getting up
49:30
on the mound and throwing 94 with pinpoint accuracy.
49:35
So I wanted to get to this point to talk about now your own
49:38
evolution. We've talked about it mostly
49:40
with you as a coach, but I want you to work through that
49:44
process. And I understand this is going
49:46
to be a time for me to just shut up and listen because I know you
49:50
went through a massive overhaul with the way that you approach
49:55
your game and now how you treat your athletes for what matters,
49:59
what doesn't matter. But I don't even want to put
50:01
words in your mouth. So I do want to just step back
50:04
and kind of let you go to talk about that transition.
50:08
Yeah, it's funny because I didn't expect it to be a thing.
50:12
I dealt with so many injuries in my career.
50:14
I think I had pigeonholed myself and like relying on this long
50:19
warm up routine or like these specific things that I use as a
50:24
crutch because I felt like I needed to do them to be
50:26
successful and it just wasn't the case at all.
50:29
Like at the end of the day, like I think priming the body to get
50:32
ready to throw the baseball is like, how can I get myself to
50:36
feel good? What do I need to do to put
50:39
myself in the best position to like move how I want to move?
50:42
And then can I get the CNS in a position where it's ready to go
50:45
at its bed at the peak? Like can I get the engine revved
50:48
well enough? And funny enough, when I stopped
50:51
playing, it was like didn't matter anymore.
50:53
Like I couldn't care less, like how my arm felt, could care less
50:56
how my body felt. Body felt a lot better because I
50:58
probably wasn't doing a ton of extra stuff and and wasn't
51:01
putting myself through the grinder just because I felt like
51:03
I had to. Funny enough, I did like squat
51:06
tober that year and the only time I'd been athletic was like
51:10
just like going into the gym and like doing barbell back squats
51:14
for 30 straight days or whatever that nonsense is and then saying
51:18
like get the chili hot like. And I didn't know what that
51:21
meant. Just like basically meant like
51:23
start moving around. I was like doing well yarn on my
51:27
my squats without like really warming up or anything and at
51:31
all. And I was kind of doing them
51:33
every day. And it was something I just
51:34
wanted to do, like after I was done playing because I wanted to
51:38
challenge myself in a way that I'd never even would think about
51:41
challenging myself because I wouldn't even touch a barbell
51:44
with A10 foot pole when I was playing.
51:46
And so, yeah. And so I ended up like, going up
51:50
to UConn and I wasn't going to throw or anything.
51:52
And my buddy Connor, who I played with during my years
51:55
there, it was like that, dude, you got to throw or never.
51:57
And I didn't end up coming out hot.
51:59
And again, I think the two spectrums of it are fun.
52:02
I could care less like I didn't Matt didn't matter.
52:05
So from an anxiety or from a performance anxiety standpoint
52:09
like that what didn't exist anymore.
52:11
I wasn't like fearful of being injured because the magnitude of
52:15
me getting hurt in that moment was minuscule.
52:18
And then part of it is I just sat at a desk all day and
52:21
watched guys throw and try to problem solve other people's
52:24
throws. I was never a big visualization
52:27
or like mental like process person.
52:30
I didn't really ever buy into that or like the power of
52:33
visualization. And then you hear like, Tristan
52:35
Cassis talk last year about like, he hadn't hit in over two
52:41
months. But then the interviewer, I
52:42
think asked him a question, like, are you going to be ready
52:45
to go? And he's like, yeah, I've taken
52:46
like 400 at bats. And they were like, what are you
52:48
talking about? You can't even move.
52:50
Your oblique is torn. And he's like, yeah, well, I
52:52
just visualized 400 at bats and it's like, wait a second, maybe
52:57
it maybe it, there is some stock in it.
52:59
So I kind of never in my playing career was able to just like
53:04
pick up a ball and throw hard. And I think coupled with the
53:07
idea like I was watching the throw all the time, I was
53:10
probably solving for all these other people.
53:13
I kind of had a better foundation understanding what I
53:15
needed to do. I had was stripped from the
53:18
anxiety and the the fear of being injured or having an
53:21
injury. And then three, like the
53:24
compound interest of all of the work that I had put in over my
53:27
time as a player. All of the stuff that I've done
53:30
was still there. And so the realization for me on
53:34
that, that now I can apply to players is like, it doesn't
53:38
matter what you do 10 minutes before you pick up a ball.
53:41
It matters what you've done the 30 days prior, right?
53:45
If the sleeps in order, if the food intake is in order, if the
53:48
mobility work is in order, if all of the other like compound
53:51
interest work is in order and you're doing the right things to
53:54
prep the body daily and prepare the body for 162 games.
53:59
Or like the volume of of the throw and and the volume of the
54:03
throw at a high output for an entire season.
54:05
Then like your immediate warm up could matter way less if you
54:10
understand how to move and how to organize.
54:11
And that's something that's super ingrained in you.
54:15
It's not really needed to have this long elaborate 2 hour warm
54:18
up where you're doing 35 minutes of PRI work and spinal work and,
54:22
and you're doing different Med ball drills and things like
54:25
that. And again, I'm not saying it's
54:27
not a good thing. I think those things can still
54:29
be done and should be done. But I think we need to view them
54:32
as those are tightening up and building the armor of the
54:37
player, not preparation. It's preparation in the sense of
54:41
like you're building the the bulletproof suit, but you're not
54:45
doing it right before you have to compete or right before you
54:48
have to perform. Because again, I stopped working
54:51
out for like 6-7 months and I thought I was going to lose all
54:55
of the ability to like move and rotate and be powerful.
54:58
But clearly it wasn't the case. And so like even now, like I'll
55:00
just like pick up a ball and it's like 10 throws to 90 on
55:03
five ground or like 94 on the slope.
55:06
And it's like I never did that when I was playing.
55:08
And it's not to say like I joke around with John and Arizona all
55:11
the time about it's like he's like, you know, that means
55:13
you're not going to be you're not going to go play again,
55:15
right? And I was like, yeah, I don't
55:16
have any aspirations to. But it just shows me that like
55:20
the way I maybe went about it from a preparation standpoint
55:25
was not wrong. But my viewpoint on it at the
55:27
time was I think it can be some of the best players I've know
55:31
you've played with and and coached and been around are the
55:33
guys that couple arm swings and the arm around and they roll
55:38
from shortstop onto the mound and they throw 100.
55:40
I think it's sometimes it's truly like that idea of compound
55:43
interest rather than like what you just immediately done.
55:46
And I think the most impactful part of it is the mental side of
55:49
it. Because I think when players
55:51
kind of use their right before prep as a crutch, they're like,
55:55
oh, I didn't get my 10 moving backwards Rd.
55:59
LS in before my outing today, like I'm going to get shelled.
56:02
And they immediately result in using that as the crutch.
56:05
And when you can kind of just be as of as volatile.
56:08
And I learned this from from from Ben, if you can just let it
56:10
be as as chaotic and volatile as your, your brain can allow it to
56:14
be. I think you can unlock some some
56:16
things in yourself from a mental standpoint and from a physical
56:18
standpoint that I think most guys are not understanding or or
56:22
might not even believe can be true.
56:24
So it's, it's interesting to me. And I never thought I would have
56:27
like that, that shift because I always always a guy that kind of
56:30
even looked at other players. But I'm like, he doesn't work
56:34
hard because he doesn't warm up. I'm like, why is that a thaw,
56:36
you know? That was an awesome process.
56:40
Thanks for taking me and all the listeners through it.
56:43
And maybe the greatest take away that I had from you working
56:47
through it all was the process wasn't incorrect, but the
56:52
application of it or the view of it may have been.
56:56
And I think that's incredibly valuable when you think about
57:01
probably the majority of players that listen to this kind of
57:04
podcast or do very in depth work, which is why I'm linking
57:09
them to the ones that would listen to the podcast that are
57:13
like looking for that like extra little tick or something new
57:16
that they've never heard before. So then they can add it to the
57:21
already 3 hours of work they do per day just so they can throw
57:25
this little 5 oz white ball with red seams 110th of a mile an
57:29
hour harder. But you went on that journey
57:32
forever. And it's not that your process
57:36
or what you were doing was incorrect by any means, But as
57:41
you said, you used it as the maybe not the crutch, but like
57:44
the checklist that you needed to work through.
57:47
And if you didn't mark off that box, it was, it was like that
57:52
little bit of concern that you might not have it that day or
57:55
you might not be everything that you can be.
57:58
And we're so much more than one workout or one day of training
58:04
where the culmination of everything we have ever done,
58:06
every decision we have ever made in our entire lives.
58:10
I might be so much thought. I might be so far pushed into
58:13
that spectrum from like the mental side of it where it's
58:16
like, I almost don't even want guys the day before their
58:19
outings or the day before they know they're live to like spin
58:22
it or like work on things within their throat.
58:25
It's like what it is is what it is like tomorrow it's going to
58:29
be you had your bullpen, you had your pre start, you had your
58:33
session work during your your higher intent catch plays.
58:36
You had your pile work like the day before when we're trying to
58:39
manage workloads. Now it's like play athletic
58:42
catch, go play recovery catch. Don't think about anything.
58:44
Just move the arm, get the reps and volume that you need to, to
58:49
be ready for tomorrow and and call it a day.
58:51
Like what you do the day before the test is probably not going
58:54
to help you that much. You do all this work and you
58:57
work out and you, you're on these programs and you're doing
59:01
mobility work and you're, you're prepping the body constantly.
59:05
It's, it's the same way in school when you're, you're
59:08
getting ready for the exam, like the guy that crams the night
59:10
before is going to Dome himself up and he's also probably not
59:13
going to pass a test. If the people that are the were
59:15
the best at exams and things like that were the ones that
59:18
started studying a month before, they didn't try to cram an
59:21
entire course load into one night.
59:24
And so that's kind of how I view training and player development.
59:28
It's compound interest over a long period of time, not what
59:33
you do. Right before, I think you
59:36
brought up some really good themes and I would love to hold
59:38
you for another hour and a half to continue this, but I, I like
59:42
that idea of compound interest a lot.
59:44
I think that's applicable to anyone.
59:47
And I just once again want to say thank you for going through
59:50
this process with us talking about your story.
59:52
But before I do let you go, I want to make sure you have the
59:56
opportunity to maybe cover anything that you feel like you
1:00:00
haven't gotten to cover, if you want to plug anything, any of
1:00:03
that. So the stage is yours.
1:00:07
Talk about your socials, talk about something that you're
1:00:09
looking into. I don't care what it is.
1:00:11
Go ahead. Yeah, I don't have much to plug
1:00:14
other than, you know, I think if you guys out there looking for
1:00:18
for training and and for really in depth work with coaches that
1:00:21
really care. I think we're doing a really
1:00:24
good job. And there's a lot of really
1:00:25
great options out there and a lot of people I love in this
1:00:27
industry that have helped me tremendously.
1:00:31
But I think you're looking for someone to help you in your
1:00:34
playing career. We're a really good option.
1:00:35
And I I really would hope that you have a conversation with one
1:00:38
of us, whether it's myself, Ben praised.
1:00:41
Those guys are the best. They're they, they care about
1:00:43
their athletes. And I think we do a really,
1:00:45
really good job about making it personal for each guy and
1:00:48
actually caring. And, and there's a lot of
1:00:50
really, really great places out there that also do the same
1:00:52
thing. And so I think for players, it's
1:00:55
just about finding what fit is going to be best for them.
1:00:57
But I know these guys internally well, the guys that are involved
1:01:01
with connected performance. And on my end, like we, we just
1:01:04
really care. And I think that's what
1:01:05
separates us and why in the short term, these last two
1:01:09
years, we've we've started to grow a ton and, and have had a
1:01:12
lot of players have a lot of great success.
1:01:15
It is a it's a really detailed thing and, and each guy really
1:01:20
cares and loves each of their players that they get to work
1:01:22
with. And I think that's what can the
1:01:24
separator can be sometimes. So whoever you end up working
1:01:27
with or whoever you end up like trusting your training stuff in,
1:01:30
just make sure they care about your career just as much as you
1:01:32
care about your own. Because at the end of the day,
1:01:34
it's hard pressed to find people that do.
1:01:36
And so I, I just think we're really, really good at that
1:01:38
aspect of things. I can't speak on how intelligent
1:01:40
we are, like what we know from a, a skill acquisition
1:01:43
standpoint, but at the end of the day, like we're going to
1:01:45
find a way to, to help in some capacity to the other.
1:01:48
And I just think it's really important to find that as a
1:01:50
player. But yeah, I just want to thank
1:01:51
you for for letting me on and having this conversation.
1:01:54
It's been a lot of fun. It's been a while since we got
1:01:56
to to chat it up. So yeah, I appreciate it.
1:02:00
Of course. Yeah, this has been great,
1:02:01
Mason. I appreciate all the insights
1:02:03
you shared. And I wish I would have known
1:02:06
how detailed this was going to be.
1:02:08
So up front, I could have told everyone to grab a notepad.
1:02:11
So I guess if they Fast forward to the end and for some reason
1:02:14
listen to this, make sure you have a notepad handy or just
1:02:16
listen to it twice. So it's.
1:02:17
All right, I'm a rambler. No, this was awesome, Mason.
1:02:20
I really appreciate it. And to all the listeners out
1:02:23
there, thanks for laying back with us.