Latest / Design Darlings / How Interior Design Trends Spread: From the Renaissance Maker to the YouTube influencer
Transcript
- Allie: Hello, darling. Ro Rich: Hello, darling, it's Robin Richardson. Allie: And I'm Allie Miller, and welcome to Design Darlings, the podcast where we obsess over what makes, breaks, or bak a good design in the real world. today I'm very excited. this is a little different. We're gonna do a two-parter all about interior design. And this first part is gonna be about the celebrity of interior design. So we are gonna get into the deep dives of the history of HGTV, why we love peeking into people's windows for entertainment purposes. And we're gonna go into the history of why we do that, when we do that, how we do that. and then this is sort of a teaser to for a part two. Next episode, we're gonna have a very lovely special guest, an actual bona fide professional interior designer. And they're gonna talk to us about what the profession's like when there's not cameras around, when you actually have clients and real stakeholders and legal culpability, what that actually looks like. So with that, today's episode it's gonna be like a little bit of like an unhinged mad scientist wormhole of my personal favorite obsession, which is reality interior design television. but we are gonna have a bit of edification We're gonna intellectualize it but that's what we do here and that's what we have fun with. So my first question, Robin, to you is What is your entry point of interior design television Ro Rich: Listen, a hundred percent I was baptized in lifestyles of the rich and famous with champagne dreams and caviar wishes. Like that I remember watching that as a kid and just being stunned. Allie: Wow. That accent I that that just unlocked something in the back of my brain I'd forgotten about. Ro Rich: yes, I can hear it so clearly. His name was Robin. and we used to tune in and watch that show. And along with Unsolved Mysteries, there was like a whole cadre of really crazy, great reality documentary style photos Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: that happened. And lifestyles of the rich and famous was one of them that was, I mean, just bananas. And yeah, what was yours? Allie: for me, we're gonna get into it, but it really is the the heyday, the nineties of HGTV and TLC. like most Ro Rich: Okay. Okay. Allie: I'd say most normal teenagers and preteens spent their weekends like out with friends, going to parties, like socializing, making human connection. I spent my weekends watching cable television. Ro Rich: You I mean, to be fair, you also lived in Minnesota when it was really cold. Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: And my my mom living in New York in the winters was like, we went bowling. we were indoors because you Allie: Right. Ro Rich: were not going out. So I mean, maybe it was Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: maybe it was that. which is funny Allie: I mean Ro Rich: lifestyles of the rich and famous was eighty-four to ninety-five. And I Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: I remember picking that up and and I know I'm I'm a little bit older than you, so I can see how the nineties was the the entry point for your your television watching and I need to correct my line. Robin Leach said it's champagne wishes and caveat dreams. It was not it's not champagne dreams and caveat wishes. So I I you know, I have to nail that one. Allie: Well, before we get into modern era, we're gonna go way back. This goes, we're gonna go back to the 1400s, baby. We're going back to the Gutenberg Ro Rich: Wow. Allie: press. Okay, here's where my unhinged theory starts. We Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: have always loved looking in people's windows. we are obsessed with what is in style, what is in trend, and how do we communicate that information, So we've always wanted to have good taste, but two things were going on. One, wealth was highly concentrated unless you were a nobility or like a very high-level merchant class. You just you didn't even have the money to even consider taste. You were literally Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: trying to survive. also, granted, there's still a lot of wars going on, but like. Up through the 1400s, 1500s, there was always wars happening, And so we Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: were always feuding with other nations. We did not have time or money or resources to think about the luxuries of aesthetics, of design. We f we physically, literally, metaphorically, Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: we were fighting for our lives, And information was it was hard to share information Enter 1500s, the Gutenberg Press. We have the ability to take information and have it be structurally documented. We could physically print things in a mechanized fashion and we could send information out, So obviously we're sending religious, political, societally important information, but Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: we're humans, we love beautiful, shiny things. Quickly Ro Rich: We do. Allie: thereafter, we started creating print material about design, people were able to share information about aesthetics. by the time you get to like the eighteenth, nineteenth century, or I'm sorry, seventeenth, eighteenth century, Lot less wars, still wars happening, but a lot less wars. People started to feel a little safer, a little more secure. We had money. and we could like share information that we cared about. Ro Rich: so there's it's making me think about design literacy actually. And so I'm a I'm gonna ask this. pr were they reprinting like a sketch or an illustration of what was in someone's home or were they just literally descriptions? Allie: great question. So I mean you have traditional word written presses, So journals, pamphlets, people being like, I went to I went to this country and then I saw this thing. Ro Rich: Hold Allie: prior to that, like Renaissance era, you literally are sharing this information through paintings, We would, you know, your Italian Renaissance artists, they'd paint a painting of a wealthy person's home. That painting gets bought or sold by another person, they then have that in their home. They say, my gosh, look at this beautiful home. That's like how we were physically sharing information through drawings, paintings, or written description, The printing press allows that to do that on a bigger scale. And then we have like wood blocks, we have lithographs, we have intaglio engravings, we have all these different ways that you can use printmaking in combination with type and text to have that, but it's rather than a one off painting, we can replicate that hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of times and just get that information into the hands of more people. Ro Rich: That makes sense. Well, and then there's also Andrea Palladio's I'm not gonna say this right, Quattro Libri dell'Architettura, which was mass Allie: Ooh. Ro Rich: printed and this was the single most influential design document in Western history, and it's about how classical proportion and symmetry spread from Italy into Europe and then to colonial America. I think Thomas Jefferson designed Monticello with a Palladio book open on his desk. So that May is that the first architectural digest, babe? Was that like the one the one edition of the like book that you needed? Allie: Maybe, but I mean you had all these different designers in the 1700s creating their their version of that. Maybe they weren't as famous as as him, but you Ro Rich: Yeah. Sure. Allie: had what were called portfolios. So design houses like cabinet makers, weavers, furniture designers. Ro Rich: You mean Allie: They would hire engravers to engrave their designs and then print these Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: folios. And I thought was fun as there's like more traditional booklets. But some people would actually Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: make small little cards. And so it just it was a Ro Rich: No almohad. Allie: way that because of paper was still really expensive. So rather than having to print a giant book, almost imagine like a baseball card size of here's what kind of lathe I can carve and here's what kind of cushions I can design. And it was little tradable pattern books and design books, like things that were smaller and cheaper and easier to produce, but allowed your designs to you know, just get out to people faster and more easy. Ro Rich: That's really cool because yeah, if if you have like a fabric or tapestry, something you make you put it in the book and you send it out the door and people can trade it and I love that. That's Allie: Right. It's like your look book, you know what I mean? Yeah, like you said, rather than like literally picking up a giant cushion, like here's a hundred cushions, what kind of fabrics you like? You could just have a cute little book and flip through the patterns and be I like that flower pattern and that ornate scroll, you know? Ro Rich: Yeah. There's actually a really cool Instagram channel dedicated to finding these old sample books of fabric Allie: Yes. Ro Rich: and filigrees and all these things that people made and they pull them out, a huge tome and they're like, This is the type of book that you would use and I don't Allie: Right. The it's the classic, it's the Sears catalog of the seventeen hundreds, Well, so then we get into like the 19th century. we're in the Regency era. we have an even bigger growing middle class. think Pride and Prejudice, Bridgerton, Austin era. Entertaining was really big, specifically for the point of Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: courtship and merging families. And so even families that weren't necessarily extremely wealthy. They still would have the parlor in their home, So when you had guests that it would entertain, you'd make sure there there was at least one room in your house that was the fancy room, So the rest of your house could look like crap. But the one room is where you put all of your decoration sense into so that if a suitor came over and was in your parlor, you'd be like, look at the beautiful wallpaper I have. Look at this gorgeous brass urn. You know, and I I have taste, I have style. And again, all these things, more than ever we both have a growing middle class, but then the ability to acquire these things are is becoming more economical in a way that it it hadn't been before 'cause you now have it things are just being produced a little bit more cheaply. Ro Rich: It makes me think of something that could be very macabre, but because of global travel was happening and people were discovering cultures they could never reach, you had the curio cabinet and that was a thing you put in your product and It could be really weird, grotesque stuff, like a shrunken head or something you probably shouldn't have in these curio cabinets. and so yeah, it was a a representation of who you were and what you had access to. That's so funny to Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: think about. Allie: How learned I am, how eccentric I am, how, you know, well connected I am. Ro Rich: Great Uncle So and so went to the Arctic, and you're like, wow, look at this polar bear paw. Terrible, but fascinating. Allie: Ya. Fascinating. He's worldly, mother Ro Rich: That's right. We're all worldly here. Allie: but yeah, okay. And then I think what really like blew the can open is in the late eighteen hundreds we start having these worlds fairs. Paris World Fair, London had a very famous world fair. I should preface a lot of this conversation as predominantly European. We are at the height of, you know, globalization and colonialism. So I just want to put that disclaimer out there. but more than ever it was easier to travel to places all over the world. And so these worlds fairs truly were revolutionary in how it was one central location that had everything from machinery that could, turn wood to fabrics to all sorts of things. But design and aesthetics was a huge part of that. We're sharing ways of What designs are in trend, what colors do we like? How are we building furniture? And people came from all over as a way to see what the was the latest and greatest, to share ideas and to sort of almost create a global standard for what was fashionable at the time. Ro Rich: Just like fashion is very participatory design. Your home, that's a very personal participatory way to represent yourself to the world. And so design is like fashion for your house during your design. Clothing Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: for your house where ooh, look at my accessories. Look at my colors. That's kind of fun to think about. And they used to change You know, the wall inverse remember this, they would change the tapestries on the wall for seasons and you would have Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: heavier ones in the winter, lighter ones in the summer to y let air move through. So it's funny to think about interior design as fashion for your house, fashion for architecture. Allie: yeah. so then I think what's interesting is, up until now, up until the late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, this information about interior design and design in general is primarily being shared through small communities, small merchants, makers. And then that something really, really h interesting happens in the early 1900s. I'll start with 1920. But in 1920, the modern magazine that we know of as Architectural Digest is first published. prior to that, there were circulations, but a modern media company. didn't exist. there was independent publishers, but there wasn't a global publisher. Ro Rich: the Allie: But it with architectural digest, you now have the idea that design is changing so rapidly that we need a constant Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: periodical to do that, And so the first name is it was the architectural digest, a pictorial digest of California's best architecture. The start in the United States, specifically just with California, but then obviously over time just grew to architectural digest, In nineteen twenty-two, we have Better Homes and Garden that comes out, its original name was Fruit Garden and Home, which I think is very sweet, It wasn't just the home, it was the garden. It was your entire property, so in the early nineteen hundreds you have formal printed media that is a a regular publication distributed all across the country, at least in the United States, and then, obviously makes its way, to a European audience as well. but yeah. And then in nineteen fifties we have the big the big Monty. This is where the big star of the show comes in in the nineteen fifties. We have the television. D what I skip? Ro Rich: Wait, but you skipped something very important. You skipped Life magazine. So Life magazine happened in nineteen thirty-six and Henry Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: Luce started it. He the magazine had existed, but it was just kind of like a fringe publication. Henry Luce bought it with the help of time and life was letting readers see how people lived through picture essay format because Life magazine was about Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: photojournalism. And so life would run features on architect design homes. So like case study houses, think the Eames, Frank Lloyd Wright commissions, celebrity homes, and the modern home in America, those spreads started to double as design education for the middle class. And so it was aspirational, but it was about architectural literacy also. Because Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: because readers were being taught and this coincides with the 50s, modern design vocabulary. So open plan, indoor, outdoor living, built-ins not just a status object. And this was still kind of formal, glossy art directed museum tour vibe. So I think that's a good bridge Allie: Yes. Ro Rich: that brings us into the 50s. Allie: yeah, I love the idea of Life magazine 'cause, Architectural Digest and Better Homes and Garden, both of those still were Ro Rich: Your niche. Allie: niche, but also they they're still catering to like a female audience. Right. And so Ro Rich: Hmm, yes. Allie: those magazines were less about what you just talked about, It was still more about homemaking. these are periodicals primarily for women in a domestic setting who need advice, information. Like it was a guide for how to improve your home, your garden, things that were gonna improve how your family could function. Where I think Life magazine takes that it takes it beyond just the domestic element of it. It's It is saying How does design impact our entire culture? This is for everybody. This is our whole kind of ethos. Ro Rich: Right. And looking at design could be for men. you were being shown taste. So this was also hi, you're these serious designers like Frank Lloyd Wright and these architects. So bringing that I f almost masculine energy to it. Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: And life magazine was really popular anyways I mean, it was almost ready for television, right? Like television was the next logical Allie: Right. Ro Rich: step of here's a picture, now here's a moving picture. Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: taking that photojournalistic approach to static media and now putting it into movement is a wonderful jump. Allie: Yeah. this is bringing up an interesting topic that for a lot of this we can't talk about the sort of the next fifty to sixty years of this without talking about a gender component is this content for female audiences to exemplify this prescriptive idea of what it means to be a wife, a homemaker, a mother, a career woman, to support this patriarchal understanding of how a home should be structured? Or on the the mid century, the aim side of it, it's masculine. look at me, I have class, because I'm a man that understands design. at what point does design and interior design when is there that transition point of it's for a domestic purpose to this is dignified and significant. this isn't a female thing. This is a Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: This is serious now. Design is now serious. It's not just for the homemaker. We don't take it seriously Ro Rich: Right. Allie: when it's a woman's w role, but we take it seriously when it's for a man showing off his home. Ro Rich: That makes me think of Florence Knoll as you know, she wasn't taken seriously as an architect. They were like, you can have the interiors, little lady. she Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: re literally redefined interior spaces, especially for corporations. I mean, I wanna talk about that more next week. But again, that relegation of the man comes home and you're gonna bring him his slippers. you can you Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: can hear those mid-Atlantic, fifties films of the little lady welcomes home her husband. He's back from a long day at the office. And here's the kitchen. they did stuff like that to show because advertising Allie: Yeah. Yeah. Ro Rich: all of a sudden, now that we're in people's homes, we're in their magazines, well we need to sell them lifestyle products. Allie: So, according to the internet, the first known interior design television show was called Home. It was on N NBC. And so it premiered Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: alongside the Today Show, which the Today Show is still on. So two of the first original Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: shows on NBC were The Today Show and creatively the Tonight Show. So the Tonight Show is still on, and the Today Show is still on. And one of the shows that premiered alongside it was called Home. It was only on for three seasons. It was again for homemakers, women who were at home with their children after their husbands had gone to the office, to be the breadwinner. And it was again, it was all advice driven. It was about how do you how can you better your home? How can you be the best possible woman to support your family and your children and make them happy and healthy. So that was sort of one of the first documented shows. it was also set up as a talk show. it's like they'd have different segments. Ro Rich: Okay. Allie: and have different sponsors. So like this is the whirlpool segment of the show, know? Ro Rich: Okay. Well yeah, you were talking about the world pro miracle kitchen of the future. Allie: Okay, it's the weirdest thing. If you do you know about this, the Whirlpool Miracle Kitchen. Okay. So this is during Ro Rich: Is this like right before the Cold War? Or this is during the Cold War? I'm like, wait a minute, that sounds odd. Allie: No, I learned about this in design school, It's the weirdest thing. It was basically design by diplomacy, Ro Rich: What? Allie: and or diplomacy by design. And it was called the Whirlpool Miracle Kitchen of the Future. Cause again, the Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: Soviets and the US were all were trying to one up each other. And basically it was a giant propaganda machine where all these US companies got together and they're like, we're gonna make little boosts and show them to the Soviets and show them why this American way of living is just such a better. superior, idyllic way of being as a way to be like, guys, we're cool. calm down. And yeah, Ro Rich: Don't hate us, babe. Allie: don't hit don't bomb us, please. And Whirlpool created this thing called the miracle kitchen of the future. And they made this idea of like, in 50 years, in a hundred years, this is what the modern kitchen is going to be like. And look how going to be able to cook a turkey dinner in three minutes and it's just all these ways that the inventions in the kitchens are gonna make your life so much better and easier. And they built this giant replica kitchen in this, fair pavilion. And then they had actors sitting there, you know, cooking their food and serving it to their husbands. And the children were super happy and they had the dog running around. And it was So weird, just such a relic of its time. as like a political tool, design as politics. You Ro Rich: Well, I mean, you can look back at that brutalism, constructivism, where design was treated as a way to form identity. I mean signs and symbols. Hello. Amazing. Wow. So did it work? Allie: No? Ro Rich: spoiler alert. Did it work? Oi, they Allie: Spoiler alert, no, the Russians still hated us. The Soviets, I should say. but yeah. solid Ro Rich: So what happened in the 60s and 70s? I mean, Life magazine folds in 1972, but we're getting more into the peephole of looking outside of someone's house, we're getting closer and closer and closer into people's lives. So People magazine took Life magazine's format and swapped the subject from general human interest into exclusively celebrity. And so it's kind of the moment that the industry decides that personality-driven content is gonna outperform photojournalism. literally 10 years later, lifestyles of the rich and famous start. celebrities started to become more of a fascination for people. we want to get closer and closer to these people who are on screen that feel very far away. And that space is collapsing. Allie: and then also Ro Rich: lifestyles on the rich and famous starts in nineteen eighty four. So, we move from well restrained, tasteful. what is it to have elegant, efficient design into wealth gawking as its own genre? So Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: it was fantasy, it was escapism. I mean, so is People magazine. we're obsessed with the idea of celebrity culture as escapism. And the idea that anybody can get there. so it's taking the American dream and putting it on steroids It took away the learning about design and coupled it with learning about wealth. So like the house is Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: evidence of success and not just an aesthetic achievement. And so TV is taking over from print because the format had motion. Let's open the closet, let's pan across the pool. You can see that, but television could give you more of an experience of moving through someone's house. And then you've got global locations. absurd excess like the gold faucets and fleets of cars and so the interiors started to matter less the accumulation of wealth is on display. Allie: but yes, yes, in nineteen ninety four we have drum roll H E T V comes on the air. Ro Rich: Do you want to talk about designing women in nineteen eighty six? Allie: I could talk about yeah. Ro Rich: Robin Leach is nineteen eighty four to ninety five. You've got this wealth thing happening. Nineteen eighty six, designing women. Fantastic TV show hits the air. So we're also okay, design. Design is is having a big Allie: Design and Ro Rich: moment again. Allie: design is having a moment. Design is fun. Design is sassy. Design is like also too I think it had only been a few years that women could even have a business loan in their own name, which also just felt revolutionary. Ro Rich: designing women was like interiors are lady domain, right? Allie: Yes. it was a lady domain, but also at the same time it I've started rewatching some of the episodes and those episodes Ro Rich: I know, same. Allie: are like for the time like kind of raunchy, in the best possible way. Ro Rich: they were great. They Yeah, they talked about a lot of stuff. so yeah, so the eighties so we moved from I'm stepping into people's houses with lifestyles of the rich and famous and where you know, and now, boom, HGTV had its first show in nineteen ninety four. Tell me about it. Allie: Nineteen ninety four, the year that changed design history. No, I'm just kidding. But we had HG Ro Rich: That's general. Allie: TV premiere. we had in the nineties cable television was in, and H T V started. The first HGTV show was a show called Room by Room, which I had forgotten that I watched that show and then I rewatched the trailer, and just As soon as like I heard that intro music, I was like, I'm back. I'm back. And Ro Rich: Ha ha ha. Allie: it is it was this husband and wife couple. And my god, just the waspiness of this show was off the charts. The woman had just hair out to here, Aqua Nette hair, and then had these khaki pants that went up to her bra line. Like her the pants Ro Rich: My cross. Allie: could not have gotten higher or bigger. incredible. And it was just so it was so sincere. we're gonna talk to this man who's trying to redecorate his office and he wants a comfortable space. But da-da-da-da-da. And just it was soothing, monotone voice and the designs were just so ugly. it was the most boring design, the only word that comes to mind is just waspy. HGTV was for this this middle America, people who didn't have the ability to be the lifestyle of the rich and rich and famous. So like what's the next best thing? It's what I can go to Sears and get from the Sears catalog or I can go to JCPenney and get this linen or this bed spread. they were able to take, this this sort of aspirational level of design and then bring it down to a level that was a little more approachable and not as ostentatious. Because most people don't want these big excessive things in their home. Like they're you know, they're scared. It's a little too bold, it's a little too intimidating. Ro Rich: well, something else that happened that I forgot to I forgot to add, but Martha Stewart she did her first book in the 80s, and she was doing lifestyle. and then in 1990 she started her magazine, Martha Stewart Living. And she was appearing on regular programs and it was about Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: living. So in ninety three she did Martha Stewart Living. It was like a week and a half hour. Allie: The T V show, yeah. Ro Rich: Yes. And people were clamoring for it. so it expanded to an hour long daily broadcast I think we go from the democratization design of design. Now we're talking about well, what does it mean to have taste Because you can buy anything from this year's catalogue. you can buy from a bunch of different places. What does it mean to have a proliferation of different tastes and have a waspy style Or have Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: New England style, which I think is synonymous with the Waspy style, then you've got California chic. So you have these different people that serve as purveyors of taste because up until that point, you kind of inherited taste in a way, but we have these folks who are able to be like, what if you did this a little differently? What if you did that differently? And Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: I think Martha Stewart is someone we need to credit with bridging that gap of bringing Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: taste and entertaining and something that felt cohesive and accessible. Also into your home. I Allie: No. So this next segment, this is my professorial theory is that there are six distinct eras of home television design. So we've Ro Rich: Wow. Allie: just hit on era one, which is what I call the wasp era, This is the transitional era, the Martha Stewart era, our Chicos up to our, you know, our neck era, where we now care about aesthetics and design. but yeah, it's real wholesome, it's real boring, but we now are our we can design our homes like that. Our second era is what I call the shabby chic era. So this is where we we introduce the real villain of interior design television, which is Joan Stefan in decorating sense. Ro Rich: huh. Allie: My icon. I I sent you Ro Rich: my god. Allie: a few clips ahead of this episode. before before meeting me and and knowing my love and enthusiasm, did you have a frame of reference for Joan Stefan and the atrocities that she committed on television? Ro Rich: Not enough in my mind to assign her as the villain role, but I have seen some of her her disastrous work and crimes were committed. I'm sorry those hoes committed some serious design crimes on those shows, dastardly deeds. And frankly, frankly, I think gave people a fear of design and hiring a designer because of the monstrosities that were on TV. Just for the drama, the tension of being like, What are they gonna do to this room? And you saw it and you were like, These designers are crazy kooks and I would never let one in my house. I think they set back design. I'm in that's my hot take on that real fast. Allie: Thing is, though, is like you said, putting fear in design. I think they emboldened bad design. I think they made it seem approachable. Like at the Ro Rich: God. No. Allie: time, people thought this was good design, Robin. Middle America, suburbia, Minnesotans saw that and said, Bam, I can do that. It was accessible. People thought. Hey, yeah, I'm gonna hang pictures, plastic pictures in front of my windows and it's gonna look cute. Or like, let's go to Michael's and buy as much Modge Podge as we can and Mod Podge, distressed paper onto a cabinet. And like that's rustic. That's chic. Like Ro Rich: So those are crimes. No, those are crimes. Those are absolutely crimes. gonna take a Allie: And she was ride or die with those designer biddies. Cassandra, Tammy, whoever she brought on, she she would go to bat for them. She'd be like, I love it, amazing. Ro Rich: I think the reason that it became synonymous with bad design is because it felt like you had control of your home. These people come in and they just do something that you don't have control over. so Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: whatever they come up with, if you don't like it, guess what? I mean, I know on the television show is free. But if I hired an interior designer and they came in and did something like that to my home, I would be like, absolutely not. So I think that what it did was give away people having a sense of control and it made them fearful of having an interior designer because you didn't know if you were gonna get some crazy person and was like, I know what we're gonna do in here. But what we did was go from this era of a person is in my home who's a designer. I'm air quoting that, and they're doing Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: crazy things. So I will agree with you. It emboldened people to do crazy shit in their houses, whether or not that was a good idea. It's like it doesn't matter. But it did allow people to do crazy things in their homes. I will. But I think it also made people say If I'm doing a crazy thing, I will do it myself. I am not gonna pay someone to come in my house and make it look insane. Allie: Yeah, because then if it looks fuggly, then I just Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: have no one to blame but myself and I just won't invite people over. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ro Rich: And no one's gonna see it on television. Allie: we then in the early 2000s, we transition into a great era, which is I just called like the trashy era. The trashy and sensational era. So this is where design goes from like wholesome you can do it. Good job. To like let's make a drama. let's add the spice, let's turn up the tension you enter the reality television phase of interior design. So you have both the sensationalism of like MTV cribs, But then you have shows like trading spaces. where it's still interior design, but there's like a competition element to it. there's a produced tension if Joan Stefan did something that created tension, she just was so not self aware that like she didn't know tension was being created. Trading spaces, you had a team of producers building drama into the narrative of an episode. Ro Rich: think the tension in like the Jones Stefaned episodes was the reveal. So we were living through the anxiety of what are we about to see? What is about to happen? And it had something lifestyles of rich and famous and Cribs didn't have, which was like the participatory stakes and the real risk. you're not just looking at the home, you're watching it get transformed with the possibility of failure. And you're sitting there going, Girl, what did she do? Allie: Go Ro Rich: Girl, what did he do? Yes, trading spaces. Was that Doug Wilson? Was Doug Wilson in Trading Spaces? Yes, with the grass floor moments and like the felt wall, Allie: Y Doug was on there. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Doug was a menace. Ro Rich: like All that nonsense of design gone wrong, design gone right, and you didn't know which one you were gonna get. It was a coin flip for the car crash that might ensue and my god. Allie: And I think too, what was crazy about trading spaces is that even in shows before this and kind of the wasp and the shabby chic era, you still you were still designing for livability and like some sort of function. Where trading Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: spaces, they just took function and just threw it out the window. there was an Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: episode where Lori she plastered hay onto the walls. Ro Rich: I remember that one. Allie: and there's another episode where the woman in the interview, she was like, I like going to the beach and they literally put sand they just made the floor sand. Or they like Ro Rich: You know they had to clean that up after. they you they could not have left that. I feel like, to do something that insane in someone's house and be like, It's design, it's art. That's why people, that's why designers and creatives get bad names because of stuff like that, where you're like, Allie: Right. Ro Rich: I don't trust these people. They're insane. Allie: It wasn't about following a design brief to meet like a a requirement for a client. It was about what's gonna make the best television. And Ro Rich: Yes. Yes, it was. because they didn't know because how many people know interior designers, it's like you brought designing women into reality TV of like participatory design. And people were like, no, I will never hire a Allie: no. Ro Rich: designer to walk into my house because I will get some heinous happenings that I do not want. Allie: Yeah. And there were designers on there where people literally would cry when they figured out who their designer was. if you got Hildy or something, Versus if you got Vern Yip, you were like, my God, thank God I got Vern Yip. know. Ro Rich: but it was a huge deal. it was so funny because the contrast of that MTV Cribs also started in 2000 of people taking you and like, hey, this is my home. I have an arcade, I have a theater, I have whatever. They'd show you what was in their fridge. That was a really fun thing the celebrity took you through their home themselves. So that Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: that that upped the ante of I'm gonna show you my house now. It was like lifestyles on the rich and famous, I think it took that script and borrowed from it. and it it made it feel fun and different because you had a lot of nouveau riche people. you had pop stars and artists who, you know, they weren't coming from the generational waspy old school wealth, they were like, Yeah, I put a slide in my house. but it was kind of like, look what money can buy you nowadays. It's really fun. You can have a McMansion. Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: You can have these things. and that that I think that put a lot of joy into it. Whereas trading spaces was just a heart attack. Mm-hmm. Allie: Drama. Yeah. Was it could we say it was celebrating tackiness in a way that hadn't been celebrated before? Well Ro Rich: Trading spaces. Allie: Cribs. I I feel like Cribs just celebrated tackiness. Ro Rich: you can't say trading spaces did not. If anything, trading spaces up to the ante and was like, you know what? We're gonna go beyond tacky. We're gonna do heinous. Like Allie: Well, I think 'cause what I mean by that is that the celebrities they were so excited and proud of the design. they were like, This is insane and tacky and excessive I'm opting into this. We're trading spaces. They weren't opting into that. the homeowners weren't signing up for the tackiness where the celebrity was Hell yeah, I'm gonna put an arcade in my living room like Ro Rich: I don't know if it's tacky because I think what it was doing was rewriting the rules of what could be in your house. because it would be tacky if you were to put that in your old New England mansion. It'd be like, we have an arcade. Like, no, you don't, girl, what? maybe you have a foosball table and a pool table, but they were they were rewriting the rules. Nouveau Reche, what's up, MTV Cribs? We have new rules. So Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: I think that it broke the rules for what was possible or considered tasteful because no one was being held to that old money standard. It was like, who cares? I can do whatever I want. Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: there was a lot of fun and design. Design for joy. We love that. Hello. Allie: Design for joy. Nice. All right. And then we're gonna get into era four, so era four for me starts in two thousand eight, which two thousand eight is when you have the housing crisis, And you have a Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: massive economic downturn. And This is the knocking down wall era. And I think you can't decouple. What's happening politically and economically with what we're seeing in interior design television. Because this is an era where you had all these houses on the market. capitalism will find a way, and it came in. And it said, hey, let's make money off of this. three years in a row, you have boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You have Property Brothers, Flipper Flop, Fixer Upper. all these TV shows. Cause people were doing this in real life. People were buying dirt cheap homes, renovating them. And so, like, let's make this into good TV. And so, Property Brothers is huge, obviously, flipper flop. You have Tarek and Christina, which were The the drama of the show is Christina would be like, I want this black and white tile. And then some contractor would be like, Well, that's gonna be an extra thousand dollars. And then the husband would be like, No, we can't afford an extra thousand dollars on tile. And she's like, But this is gonna help with the resale value. And he's like, All right, well, if you say so, and then they'd install the tile, and then guess what? They'd sell the house for fifty thousand dollars over listing. Like that was the formula. most of the houses are very bland. it is truly just let's put as little money as possible into these houses. To flip them And then I think it's not really until like Chip and Joanna come in the picture, they get really big. Cause they're like, okay, you can flip houses, but let's still care about how they look. So you have this kind of tension between making a profit off real estate, but also not neglecting the design of the home, not just purely flipping, but we should still care about how these homes look and function and Ro Rich: mean the other thing was people couldn't afford to move and so you Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: had to renovate where you were at and I think the Chip and Joanna approach was let's take something and make it feel more timeless. their whole vibe is kind of throwback but timeless. my God, Allie: Shiplap. They made Shiplap cool. Ro Rich: Chiplap was back, babe. And so I feel like they took a lot of notes from the twenties, thirties, and forties and updated that, which was really, really great. And so the renovation was the drama of what are we gonna have, what are we gonna find when we open up this wall or when we turn in, you know, and then Allie: yes. Ro Rich: everyone's like, We need new wiring in the whole house because it was wired by squirrels, you know, like something crazy. They're like, There's peanuts in this wall, and you go, no. And so that would add to the budget. Like property brothers are famous for that, for those Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: sorts of drama moments. and what it's gonna do to the timeline and all this stuff. very intimate the time. Allie: The timeline, Robin, it's gonna change the timeline. Ro Rich: my gosh. I feel like it's getting closer and closer and more intimate into how it affects people's lives because now we're Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: talking about them having to make a real estate purchase. We went from like, here's your room, babe, to can you afford this house? Like which and what are the other ones? Like people go and they visit three houses and then they decide which one they're gonna buy. I can't remember what it is. Yes, house hunters. Allie: house hunters? Yeah. Ro Rich: where people are looking and then they're looking at their renovation buzz. So it's getting more and more intimate. and now we're having the relationship as being supportive and helpful instead of the antagonistic relationships that you had with other designers of like, I'm gonna cry because you're I'm not gonna invest $50,000 for Hildi to come wreck something. Like that's irreparable damage, right? But so you had to have the designer as your co-pilot, the designer as your friend was gonna help you get what you wanted to achieve and that you could live in and be comfortable in. And so we went like the drama was in the the structure of the of the house and seeing what actually had to be done and letting Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: the professionals handle it. And I think that that that was our swing back into loving design again, into good bones, and the mother-daughter duos. You've got a team that's on your side instead of a team Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: that's absolutely insane and might make you cry. Like you still might cry because no, the timeline or no the money. But they're there to help you figure things out. Allie: Yeah. And you this is also where you have the show Extreme Home Makeover come on. And that kind Ro Rich: Yeah, true. Allie: of gets to that point too where it's designed as a social good, where Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: this is about actually making a a a notable improvement into somebody's life. Like how am I improving your life? Maybe you've had a newborn baby and I've helped you, you know, make that Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: first year of the newborn's life easier, or your parents are aging and Let's renovate this home so that you can they can stay in place longer. Like all these ways that that Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: renovation and design is not just about excess and aesthetics, but it's actually about, helping their lives. And I think too the couple, like the the duo thing these networks are investing more money into building the brand and the celebrity of the hosts. where you're actually Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: getting to know them, where even before like Joan Stefan and Trading Spaces, like Ro Rich: And Allie: you still see these hosts in a very superficial quality where Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: on Fixer Upper and Flipper Flop and Property Brothers, you are actually getting to know who they are, their dynamic, their family, their upbringing, like they're whole people. They're Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: not just the persona. the show becomes about the host more than it does the thing that they're designing. Ro Rich: Yeah. Celebrity designers. Nate's Allie: Celebrity designers. Yeah. Ro Rich: like there's then you have Martha Stewart, hello, the OG celebrity Allie: yeah. Ro Rich: designer hello, look at the things I made. She like was Julia Child on steroids with all of all of her lines and the things that she had I mean she was really she was a big deal. She was accessible. She was on TV and she felt like a friend. She was a friendly person to get design advice from and try to lift things up. And I I mean not to say that there weren't folks in the the seventies and eighties, but I think in the modern era, she was that person to show you how she would transform a room or a table lamp, whatever, Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: you know. She wasn't doing wall knockdowns, in her early shows, but she was definitely that person as a purveyor of taste. Allie: But yeah. Yeah, I love that whole era of just any time you'd like have to rip up a carpet, it like will we find hardwood floors underneath this carpet? who knows? Like it was it was thrilling. Ro Rich: Yes. Look at the yeah, the crimes the boomers committed, covering the hardwood floors and you're like, Allie: Yeah! Ro Rich: Yes, congratulations, it's a hardwood floor and we can sand it and refinish it, Allie: Or it'd be like, we're gonna renovate this whole bathroom for five thousand dollars. no, it's covered in mold. Now it's gonna be twenty thousand dollars. Ro Rich: That's right, 'cause you have leaking pipe upstairs, didn't you notice? And they're like, I always wondered what that was. Allie: All right. So era five, we're entering what I'm calling the Mormonism era. this also kind of intersects with the COVID era. and everyone's physically in their homes in a way that like we're staring at our surroundings and we're just overstimulated. There's too much crap So Studio McGee, they p have this show that comes on and they were already kind of a well-known independent design firm based in Utah, And their show was sort of coming on this era of just beige is big, the minimalism of Kim Kardashian, kids' toys are all beige, everything's beige, And I think they really helped push forward this design aesthetic where this idea that it's quote, timeless, but is very minimal, but not minimalism, but let's make it comfortable. But not too comfortable. It's like this weird, kind of eerie, like everything looks perfect. but also feeling lived in, but not too lived in to be messy. But messy enough where people don't think you're obsessive. Ro Rich: I think is the blandification of things. Allie: Yes. There you go. Ro Rich: where it one, it had to feel kind of clean and sterile because I think with COVID everyone's wiping surfaces, and I'm gonna bring up something that you skipped and I'm so shocked that you skipped it. the Kim and Kanye feature. Their Calabasas mansion in Arch Digest was on February 3rd, 2020. It was part of the magazine's March 2020 release. It was their futuristic Belgian monastery home. It was designed with Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: Axel Vervoort, and it was just like so extreme. Everyone's like, How Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: do you have kids' toys in here? How do you have this? I mean, that whole home was just beige. It was crazy, it it looks like a movie set, And Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: there was an aspiration there for the people that followed her and were fans. I'm not hating on that, but I think that that had a huge influence So if you paired it back into how would we actually live like this, boom. That was a Allie: That's the studio McGee version. Yeah. Ro Rich: solution. And this happened right before COVID. Like We went in the lockdown March twenty twenty and what do we have? What are we staring at? That Allie: Our homes. Ro Rich: that specific feature. the extremeness of it, people were like, my god. it was a surprise for a lot of folks. And people wanted to have a a version of that. And so the white, clean aesthetics, all of that definitely and they had a video tour in a quiz showing off Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: their unique, neutral toned, estate in terms like, Where am I? Allie: picturing that hallway there's just this long hallway with all these Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: just super eerie arches and then I think there was a photo of like Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: North or one of their kids in the background and it truly it looked out of like some like horror movie. It was the creepiest Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: thing. And then I think kind of coming out of COVID we phase into the the current era we're in. Which is the internet eclectic era, so this is where again, COVID allowed internet influencers, specifically interior design influencers, to kind of have an audience that I don't think they'd had previously. we have really big internet DIY and maker influencers come out of it. A Lone Fox, Alexander Gator, The Sorry Girls, Caroline Winkler. These are all people that if you follow YouTube interior design, they're just like common people on rotation. And their whole thing is like you're trapped in your home. And a lot of these people are either a Gen Z or millennials. You don't have a lot of money. Let's make the best of your situation. Let's make your home feel comfortable, cozy, eclectic, unique. You know, let's make it feel original that it fits to your personality. And a another kind of sort of subgenre of that is the what I call the girl, I don't know what I'm doing era, where you have people who are designing on the internet who kind of embrace that like they're not professionals. So you have a a lot of channels popping up where you have people either buying old homes or like you Trixie Mattel, like her hotel makeover Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: show comes up like around this time. You have another Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: hotel renovation show come up. And what's in what's different about these, it's different than like the Property Brothers era, is that these are not professionals. there's a woman and her partner, name is Jenna Phipps. And she literally started in COVID making crochet videos. Like she just knit and crocheted, Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: And then she bought this gorgeous mid-century house in Vancouver, Canada. She's not a professional tradesperson, but she just was like, I'm gonna figure this out. And there's another woman Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: named McKenna. She bought a house in Texas, same thing, not a professional person. She's just like a 35-year-old woman. and she's like, I'm gonna teach myself cabinetry. So you have this really cool, it's really empowering to watch these like young people. it's just a YouTube camera, it's just them and like a few sponsors. There's not Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: some giant HGTV production crew, and they Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: are doing full-on renovation and construction, and they're figuring it out as they're going and they're making mistakes, and they're not claiming Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: to be professionals, but they're just saying, like, hey. I got ambition and I got Hutzpah and like, let's do this, let's renovate this house. Ro Rich: Yeah. Well, I think it's it's again it's that collapsing of like the intimacy where, you know, I'm the person holding the camera now, I'm gonna show you my home. I'm gonna show you how I'm gonna make this thing. Like now I'm an enthusiast who's becoming an expert through my experience in my own way, But watching people, yes, remove tile and do all of that on their own, it is incredibly empowering. And I think it's helpful and harmful in some ways. One, that undertaking is really big and you have to know what you're about to bite off, right? someone who's an enthusiast or a hobbyist. because you can do damage to yourself or to whatever. Like you can you can get hurt essentially. but it also lets people understand, I think, a little more of the the process that goes into it and let watches them figure out the process in real time. So I think that's cool. Allie: yeah, so I mean I think we've we've covered the gamut. That's kind of where we are where we stand today. And here we are today. Ro Rich: Here we are today with the the influencer as edu entertainer as edutainer as they're walking through it, which I think is actually a really good place for us to to press pause until we can get into our next episode because we are gonna talk to a real interior designer and talk about, you know, we're in this internet eclectic era. What does that mean? What does that mean for interior designers who are practicing and what is that what does that look like from the discipline side of folks who are doing this professionally? So I think we're at a good place to do you wanna design Darling of the Week? What would what would yours be? Or you want me to go first? Allie: how about you go first? Ro Rich: Okay. my design, darling. Actually, if we're gonna come full circle, I think architectural digests open door. I love the format of it because it's kind of a fun swerve. Like we went from Life magazine into lifestyles of the rich and famous into cribs into HGTV, and open door is like the internet descendant, and it's a return to the Life magazine DNA instead of continuation of cribs. And so People walk you through their homes on YouTube, but I think the vocabulary is back to design literacy. They're naming architects, they're citing the eras, they're talking about finishes, but it's coming full circle because they are trying to help you understand the design of something and why it's why it's cool. And I you know I love that. So I'm a big fan of. Having somebody walk me through and explain who designed it, and all of that. So that's what I got. That's my darling. What's your darling, darling? Allie: There you go. my Design Darling is subgenre of what you just said, which is the AD Home Tour, which is specifically wood brags. My Minnesota accent. Ro Rich: Yeah. Allie: Bragg. But Wood Ro Rich: Well Allie: Braggs is every celebrity home tour. There is a moment in which a celebrity highlights a piece of wood in their house. like there's an episode where like Dakota Ro Rich: amazing. Real wood. Allie: Johnson, she's like This table was made from Winston Churchill's yacht. Or like Rue Paul is like, this is Anne Margaret's jewelry case. Or Mandy Moore is like, these doors were in Jackie O's New York apartment. And it's just the pot calling the kettle black. Like I definitely have wood brags in my home. Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Allie: that I would like if you came over and be like, this table was from this and that's from that, and like da-da-da-da-da. But I just love the idea of like it is just a it's a through line in every home tour of a celebrity. bragging about some piece of like wood in their apartment. It's so niche and Ro Rich: Well, I don't think you Allie: so stupid and I love it. Ro Rich: I mean, I don't think you're throwing shade. I actually think it's like it's a proper homage to people Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: loving something that's been passed down, that's well made, that like, hey, this has h story because we're obsessed with heritage and story. We always have been, and that keeps morphing into different forms. But I mean that's that's it. Like, I don't think it's a bad thing to have a wood brag. I mean it's tongue in cheek and it's funny. Allie: Yeah, yeah. Ro Rich: but I think it's a great way to bring design vocabulary back into the world. So Allie: Mm-hmm. Ro Rich: We had all of that. Allie: Yeah, I just wanna watch a wood break where like a celebrity's in on the joke and they're like, This is a stick I found in my backyard Ro Rich: I You wanna see them make fun of it more. You wanna you Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: wanna see a spoof of the wood brag. Maybe we should do a Allie: Yes. Ro Rich: spoof of the wood brag. Amazing. Well, darling, this has Allie: So all right. Ro Rich: been a wonderful dive through interior design Allie: Thank you for Yeah. Ro Rich: It I I'll see you, I guess I'll see you next time. Do you want to sign us off? Allie: of course. So signing off. It's been lovely. It's been real. Go go make some design decoration choices Ro Rich: we should do like a design sign off. We need to come up with one. We need to Allie: Ooh, we do. Ro Rich: come up with like go do good design or something in the world about design. Go make good design Allie: Go make good design. Go make good design decisions. Ro Rich: decisions. Go make good design decisions. Allie: Go make the design decisions, everybody. Bye. Ro Rich: Okay, Bye.