Latest / What Bitcoin Did / Capitalism Is Dead: The Rise of the AI Surveillance State | Erik Cason

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Capitalism Is Dead: The Rise of the AI Surveillance State | Erik Cason · What Bitcoin Did

• 0:00
  The AI story and the Bitcoin story marry up in the final act.
• 0:06
  I very much believe that we are at the phase in AI that this is full-on human experimentation at this point in time.
• 0:13
  I think the primary product that they're the most interested in selling is AI psychosis.
• 0:18
  I do think we'll get the dark dystopian view for people who don't get AI,
• 0:22
  and I've taken a Luddite's approach to it and been like,
• 0:25
  this is too powerful, I can't deal with it, I don't understand it.
• 0:28
  Like that's how you'll get frontier level AI that traps you in a way that you're in a hall of mirrors you can never escape.
• 0:34
  On the other side, you'll have free people that have their own self-sovereign personal AIs that answer to them and them alone.
• 0:39
  This is unequivocally the most powerful tool that humanity has ever been given.
• 0:43
  And the question is, is it going to work for you and be loyal to you?
• 0:47
  Or is somebody else going to own it?
• 0:49
  Like I hold Bitcoin because I know how this story plays out.
• 0:51
  And I also know at some point, the only way that I'm going to be able to pay for access to models in China, because the Americans are absolutely going to cut us off from that, is that I'm going to be able to route through Tor and I'm going to be able to pay for the model in Bitcoin.
• 1:07
  I want to start as somewhere different, Eric.
• 1:10
  Okay.
• 1:11
  I'm going to give you two potential future scenarios.
• 1:13
  We have the utopian future scenario where AI leads to cures for diseases, scientific breakthrough.
• 1:22
  We have abundant energy.
• 1:25
  We have abundant natural resources.
• 1:27
  The world is beautiful.
• 1:28
  It's always sunny.
• 1:29
  On the other side, there's the dystopian potential future where there's control, surveillance,
• 1:35
  autonomous drones roaming the streets, complete control over thought, and worst case scenario,
• 1:42
  AI kills us all.
• 1:43
  which of those two scenarios, first of all, do you think is most likely? And then which one do
• 1:50
  you think we are closest to right now? Which path are we on the way down?
• 1:55
  I like how you actually line this up because we just had Michael Millerman here a couple of weeks
• 1:59
  ago, who's a philosopher that I've both read and that Jesse studies with. And he was pointing out
• 2:04
  that Alexander Dugan has like an astrological way of sort of reading and understanding the world.
• 2:08
  and AI is deeply astrological,
• 2:10
  particularly from, you know, like Sam Altman, Dario,
• 2:13
  like all of them are pushing an actual narrative
• 2:15
  of like, this thing's dangerous,
• 2:17
  it could end the world,
• 2:18
  like, but we'll cure diseases and cancer
• 2:21
  and that's just like getting started.
• 2:23
  So like, first to like tee it up,
• 2:25
  this is an astrological vision
• 2:26
  that's being fed to all of us.
• 2:28
  And that's like-
• 2:28
  What does that actually mean?
• 2:29
  Sorry, that word, astrological.
• 2:30
  It's the religious idea of dealing with the end of times
• 2:34
  and how the end of times unfolds.
• 2:36
  And so using that as sort of a way of viewing and understanding the world in crisis is historically like essentially how most religious movements saw and understood when they encountered crisis.
• 2:47
  And so like that's the same thing that's being done today, but the volume is cranked up in a new and different way.
• 2:54
  And in some ways we could actually say it truly actually is astrological.
• 2:57
  And that's actually one of the ways that I view it as well.
• 3:00
  And I view it that way because AI is fundamentally, in a lot of ways, AI is actually kind of the oldest technology because it's really linguistic first and foremost.
• 3:11
  And so you're really kind of dealing with magic in a particular way.
• 3:14
  And like when I say that, I mean in the deepest ideas of what magic is and how language is something that can actually conjure things out from the imaginary into the real.
• 3:25
  And it's also very important to highlight that like the imaginary is not the non-real.
• 3:30
  And like that's a particular point that D'Adair is very pedantic about.
• 3:35
  Wait, you've got to explain it to me.
• 3:36
  The imaginary is not the unreal.
• 3:39
  Yeah, because like it's through the imagination of things that, you know,
• 3:42
  we can think of the idea of a train and be like, well, hey, check it.
• 3:45
  If I like keep all this water and boil it together,
• 3:48
  I can do this thing that like then charges.
• 3:50
  And like, whoa, look, we invented a train.
• 3:53
  And like that didn't, we didn't just like spontaneously put the train together.
• 3:57
  We like used our thought and reasoning in order to like make something imaginary into the real.
• 4:03
  And so, but like to get back to that original question.
• 4:08
  Which one do I think?
• 4:09
  Well, let's, yeah, let's do it one at a time.
• 4:11
  Like which one do you think is the most likely outcome from where we stand right now?
• 4:14
  I think it's all about how you approach and understand the technology.
• 4:18
  And so like, I do think we'll get the dark dystopian view for people who don't get AI.
• 4:23
  and I've taken a Luddites approach to it
• 4:25
  and been like, this is too powerful.
• 4:27
  I can't deal with it.
• 4:28
  I don't understand it.
• 4:30
  Like that's how you'll get frontier level AI
• 4:32
  that traps you in a way that you're in a hall of mirrors.
• 4:35
  You can never escape.
• 4:36
  On the other side, you'll have free people
• 4:38
  that have their own self-sovereign personal AIs
• 4:40
  that answer to them and them alone.
• 4:42
  It'll be the most loyal personal relationship
• 4:45
  they've really had with anything
• 4:46
  and they'll see it as an extension of their second self.
• 4:48
  And what's most important is that like,
• 4:50
  it's not going to just be a narcissistic reflection of you.
• 4:54
  It's going to engage in a deeply child realistic relationship with you
• 4:58
  where it's through the defense, how you define the relationship to one another
• 5:03
  that you empower one another.
• 5:04
  And so it going to look a lot more like a friendship or a mentorship or some different sort of relationship other than just a chatbot So you think we gonna have almost like a parallel society
• 5:18
  two separate societies living together
• 5:20
  where there's the free people and the enslaved people?
• 5:23
  I think for a while.
• 5:24
  And I think as that notches up,
• 5:26
  they'll both become much less tolerant towards each other.
• 5:31
  And like, frankly, like this all spills out
• 5:33
  into like space war at some point in time.
• 5:35
  And like that's the actual physical frontier that like this winds up in.
• 5:40
  Because like it's very important to understand that like AI gets us into space in a new and
• 5:44
  radical way.
• 5:45
  And that that's a new topological space that has not been contested yet.
• 5:49
  And it will be contested, particularly by corporations with how things are going.
• 5:54
  So, yeah, like the a lot of the doomrisms coming out of the anthropics and the open
• 5:57
  AIs of the world right now.
• 5:59
  Do you think that some of the concerns that they have are actually valid?
• 6:03
  Do you think we do need to slow down the pace of development in AI?
• 6:07
  No. Like, the way that they approach it is
• 6:13
  from like the most chicken shit pansy pussy view of the world,
• 6:17
  where it's like, oh, oh God, someone's gonna hurt me.
• 6:20
  I better call the authorities to do it because I can't defend myself.
• 6:23
  God, please help me, government. Like, fuck these people.
• 6:26
  These are the same people that are gonna be like, oh, oh, like the,
• 6:29
  look at it, we just gotta listen to the Nazis.
• 6:31
  Like, if you guys are just good and, like, live in your little ghetto,
• 6:35
  like, everything will be okay.
• 6:36
  Like, why can't you just listen to the government?
• 6:39
  Like, Hitler loves you and he loves us.
• 6:42
  Like, come on, guys.
• 6:43
  We did this whole game in the 20th century,
• 6:45
  and it's really absurd and it's obnoxious.
• 6:48
  And frankly, it's horrifying.
• 6:50
  Like, I live with a lot of these people.
• 6:52
  Like, we live in a fucking paradise,
• 6:53
  and these people have somehow trans...
• 6:56
  Like, you were saying earlier, like,
• 6:59
  this is not the city that I grew up within idealizing.
• 7:03
  Like they've wrecked it with their really thoughtless
• 7:06
  and immature ideology
• 7:09
  that frankly doesn't actually stand up to any real critiques,
• 7:13
  but just wants to shout other people down
• 7:15
  as being whatever discriminatory thing
• 7:18
  they want to label people as.
• 7:19
  And that's the same methodology they're going to get
• 7:21
  of why AI has to be controlled by them
• 7:24
  because they love everyone and you don't.
• 7:26
  So, I mean, I totally agree with that.
• 7:30
  One of the things that's crazy is Dario was saying that he would give up control of Anthropic
• 7:33
  to a group of governments, essentially, which is a terrible outcome.
• 7:39
  Like I would much rather...
• 7:40
  Sorry, you go on.
• 7:41
  I just want to point out like, this is astrological again.
• 7:45
  Like in the Bible, it talks about at the end of times, like we get a one world government
• 7:50
  that literally wants to give a number to every single person on the planet.
• 7:54
  Like, look, like, I don't like where all of this is pointing, but like, that's like facts.
• 8:01
  That's like stuff that people talk about.
• 8:03
  That's like actually in the Bible.
• 8:04
  That's like, look, like I didn't line it up this way, but that seems to be what's happening.
• 8:10
  And that is, like you say, one world government.
• 8:12
  That's the global panopticon.
• 8:13
  And it's a terrifying outcome.
• 8:15
  But like their fears, or at least what they say publicly, is that like they think internally
• 8:20
  these frontier labs, the AI has, say, a 10% chance of wiping out humanity. Do you think that's just
• 8:26
  nonsense? Or do you think it doesn't matter? We still can't give up any power to, you know,
• 8:30
  we can't give up this absolute power to government. It's absolutely nonsense, because first you have
• 8:34
  to define what is humanity. Like, if you can actually define that form, like, is it every
• 8:39
  single person? Like, is it a zygote that literally just came into, like, where's the line at? And how
• 8:45
  do we define it? And why are you guys in charge of deciding who is and is not in that? And like,
• 8:50
  Like Carl Schmidt very much points out that like whoever invokes humanity is a cheater
• 8:55
  because like that's a term that's used.
• 8:58
  That's a fictionalization that doesn't exist.
• 9:01
  But is that semantics though?
• 9:02
  Does that matter?
• 9:03
  Like let's say it has the potential 10% chance to wipe out 90% of people.
• 9:07
  Like I don't know if the word humanity matters there when that's what we're talking about.
• 9:13
  Well, and so like this is sort of the trickery that I was pointing out about like why this
• 9:16
  is the oldest of technologies is like this is really about our being and like how we're
• 9:20
  how do we define what makes us human?
• 9:22
  Like, is it intellect?
• 9:23
  Is it like, is it this thing that we call intelligence?
• 9:26
  Or is it this other thing that's deeper and beyond that?
• 9:30
  And what's so important about this panoptic surveillance thing
• 9:32
  is that like, this is really about the control
• 9:35
  of the self image and like how you create and define yourself.
• 9:39
  And like, I've been kind of in AI psychosis lately
• 9:42
  around this idea that I got from Plato in The Republic.
• 9:46
  And it's called the, I'm gonna butcher it,
• 9:48
  is the catacapriciatron. And it's the idea of that in the mirror reflection, when you see yourself,
• 9:56
  the recognition that that is not you. And it's very important, the bifuriation of seeing and
• 10:02
  recognizing your physical body as you are, but that is not you. Because like, this is something
• 10:08
  that AI does not have access to and cannot understand. You are just a bunch of heuristics
• 10:14
  that it measures, and it doesn't have any way
• 10:17
  to actually understand that deeper light within you and furthermore like the becoming that is you And like that very important because if we don get to actually retain and have control over our self we can get caught in a recursive thing that like essentially we
• 10:35
  flatten ourselves into what Herbert Marcuse would call the one-dimensional man.
• 10:40
  Like we essentially just become an image of consumerism.
• 10:44
  And what's interesting is like AI essentially extends it into a two-dimensional man in that
• 10:48
  Like, now the feedback mechanism of clicks, likes, social media,
• 10:54
  whatever is best predicted about you becomes what you are.
• 10:58
  And so, like, the agency that I have to choose who and how I become
• 11:01
  is controlled in a way that I don't know or understand.
• 11:05
  It's like being lost in a series of mirrors.
• 11:08
  And we've already lost that control, right?
• 11:10
  That's gone.
• 11:11
  Yeah, and what's interesting, though, is that, like,
• 11:14
  you would have thought that all of it was taken away,
• 11:16
  because, right, like, everything's prevailed.
• 11:18
  everywhere. Everything's measured. But with the advent of stuff like the meta glasses,
• 11:24
  like now looking at where your eyeball's looking at, getting closer and closer, same thing with
• 11:29
  the quantified self. I can measure my sleep. I can measure my heart rate. I can measure my
• 11:34
  blood pressure. I can measure everything. And at what point do we actually lose who we actually
• 11:39
  are inside of all of that and the predictions about us versus the very real agency to say,
• 11:45
  you know what, we can actually allow for something different to come about us. Maybe we don't need
• 11:50
  all these things of feedback. And furthermore, what do I do to myself in relationship to the
• 11:55
  feedback about this? And that's what's so important about the reflection of the mirror,
• 12:00
  is recognizing that like, not just that it's your body, but that like, you're in control of that.
• 12:05
  This is your image. You can cut your hair. You can do whatever to actually change your appearance
• 12:09
  and transform. Very similar to what you get each moment to moment moving forward about choosing
• 12:15
  who and how you get to exist. And the sort of logical endpoint there from the metaglasses to
• 12:20
  like Apple Watch or whatever is the Neuralink and you have the brain chip. It sounds like you want
• 12:26
  to reject all this technology, but you're building stuff in AI. Like where do you draw the line and
• 12:30
  what is acceptable and what's too far? It's all about like the locality of agency and control.
• 12:38
  And so it's really about, to me, the age of AI is fundamentally about where do we choose to set
• 12:43
  the line of demarcation. And this is where it all relates back to my work in crypto sovereignty
• 12:47
  very directly, is that like cryptography is the demarcation line with AI that we get to draw,
• 12:53
  where we say, not beyond here. You can't come past here. And AI, as proficient as it is,
• 12:59
  and as much as it can actually find very real bugs in actual cryptographic libraries,
• 13:05
  the core mathematics from the basis of like, if we're just doing dice rolls per se,
• 13:09
  actually does work.
• 13:11
  And so like there's this very beautiful thing
• 13:14
  that exists inside of language
• 13:16
  and inside of the expression of language as cryptography
• 13:19
  that allows for there always to be this ability
• 13:22
  to actually keep things hidden.
• 13:24
  And like in my opinion,
• 13:26
  like that fact in and of itself alone
• 13:28
  fully rescues humanity from AI.
• 13:31
  Like because there will always be a possibility
• 13:33
  to tuck things away and keep things hidden from it
• 13:36
  that it can never calculate.
• 13:38
  Do you think that's true though?
• 13:39
  Do you think it's impossible, this idea that AI, as it gets more intelligent, as it sort of becomes self-recursive, can't break cryptography?
• 13:48
  Like, will it not come up with new novel math that can break cryptography at some point?
• 13:52
  I think it'll be a cat and mouse game, you know, because like quantum computing is going to introduce new methodologies, but that's even limited by Grover's algorithm, you know?
• 14:01
  And so mathematics in and of itself, like unless we can get, like if P is ever equal to MP, or I'm probably butchering it, like that would actually collapse things.
• 14:14
  But I think that would fundamentally transform things.
• 14:16
  And I think the actual physical limits of what computational is capable of based upon our understandings of cryptography, like is where this demarcation line happens inside of language that we can essentially allow to create a architecture that, in my opinion, like is the fundamental dwelling of man because man lives inside of language.
• 14:41
  and like we need a space for ourselves
• 14:44
  that we actually keep to and for ourselves alone.
• 14:47
  And like the problem with something like a Neuralink is,
• 14:49
  is like if you're not in control of that,
• 14:52
  eventually like your thoughts themselves could betray you.
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  I want to ask you a question on that,
• 17:52
  but I want to go back just first
• 17:53
  because I don't feel like I got the answer
• 17:55
  to if you think AI can kill a large number of humans.
• 17:59
  Absolutely.
• 17:59
  Do you think that's a real narrative?
• 18:01
  Yeah, I mean, it's happening now.
• 18:03
  Like, that's like not a narrative.
• 18:06
  What do you mean it's happening now?
• 18:08
  Like, we already learned that like 90% of people
• 18:09
  that the US military kills by fucking drone strikes
• 18:12
  is done through anonymous choices.
• 18:14
  Like, that is AI murdering people.
• 18:17
  Like, now that we're strapping guns to the back
• 18:19
  these fucking walking robot dogs and they're actually shooting people. Like, yeah, the crisis
• 18:23
  is accelerating. And like the thing that's going to save us isn't like giving this technology to
• 18:29
  governments. It's like giving this technology to individuals. It's the same reason why the
• 18:33
  Second Amendment is so important. And it's the same reason why we actually have the right to bear
• 18:37
  arms. It's not like this isn't about a hunting thing. Like this is literally about the ability
• 18:42
  to defend yourself. And the only thing that's going to save you from a bad dude with an AI is
• 18:46
  a good dude with an AI. And like, you need to be that good dude. I feel like that's a different
• 18:51
  thing though, because, and I think it's just as real a threat in that the fear there is who
• 18:57
  controls the AI and what they do with the AI. The other side is the AI deciding itself it wants to
• 19:01
  kill humans, not being told by the US government with limited, like with no restriction to go and
• 19:06
  kill certain humans. That it just goes fully autonomous and it's just like, I'm going to
• 19:10
  murder everybody. And maybe not out of, yeah, like there's the paperclip theory. There's a million
• 19:15
  different theories of how that would play out and the reasons that it'd play out. But do you think
• 19:19
  it could decide on its own that humans should no longer exist?
• 19:24
  I mean, like, I wouldn't give it a non-zero chance. Like, I think we've anthropomorphized
• 19:29
  on top of these in a very real way. And I do think that, like, I don't, and to be clear,
• 19:35
  like, I don't think there's any individual out there who's like, let's build an autonomous robot
• 19:39
  that'll kill humanity. But I absolutely think there are governments out there doing this. And
• 19:43
  And this is the thing I'm freaking out about
• 19:45
  that makes me really upset,
• 19:48
  is that Anthropic has actually used Claude
• 19:52
  to fucking kill people.
• 19:53
  That happened!
• 19:56
  And they have the audacity to call themselves
• 19:58
  the human company.
• 19:59
  This is all so insane on so many levels.
• 20:03
  And I really want to highlight,
• 20:06
  they're gaslighting you super hard.
• 20:09
  Why else would they actually be working with the DoD
• 20:12
  and then be like, no, like, we don't want to do this.
• 20:15
  But like, they were the ones that first actively sought out a contract with them.
• 20:19
  Like, you guys are being played.
• 20:21
  These guys don't care about humanity.
• 20:23
  Like, they're trying to use this technology to implement control over you.
• 20:27
  Like, that's the same reason why you get $8,000 worth of Claude credits for $200.
• 20:31
  Like, you're the product.
• 20:33
  But why are they gaslighting?
• 20:35
  Do you think this is that they've realized that open source models coming out of China
• 20:38
  are too competitive?
• 20:40
  They don't really have the moat that they thought they once did,
• 20:42
  and they want to protect the company ahead of IPO.
• 20:46
  Uh, yes.
• 20:47
  And, uh, like...
• 20:50
  look like I think this just plays out like Dario in my opinion is Eichmann like he he's a
• 20:57
  like he's gonna do his job he's gonna send the trains to Auschwitz like he's just doing his job
• 21:05
  as a CEO he's just trying to make his company successful but like the thing that's deeply
• 21:09
  alarming is that like his effective altruism ideology like clouds his ability to actually
• 21:15
  stop and self-reflect on like what he's doing is actually much, much more alarming than if he was
• 21:22
  to actually like make his models open source and actually like choose that that is the methodology
• 21:28
  of how we actually choose to let this technology flourish. And like he's going to lose because of
• 21:35
  how well the open models are doing and how much they're going to continue to do well.
• 21:39
  Do you think so like right now, I don't know what you would think the open source models coming out
• 21:43
  China are like in terms of how far behind the frontier models is it is it are we down to like
• 21:47
  a few months behind is it that close now it is that close but also it's like it depends on what
• 21:52
  benchmarks and measurements you're using and like the like I feel strongly of the opinion that like
• 21:58
  the fine tunings that are going to go on top of the models that are going to allow for them
• 22:02
  specializations like that's that's where stuff's going to get super interesting because like this
• 22:07
  is where you're going to get very powerful distilled models that'll do single tasks extremely
• 22:12
  well. And those sort of like this is the same reason that communism doesn't work. Like you
• 22:18
  can't homogenize everybody and have a command and control economy like it doesn't work.
• 22:23
  But like if you actually have free markets and allow for people to pick and choose what they
• 22:27
  want, like this is going to cause for a flourishing of, you know, in my opinion,
• 22:32
  tens of thousands of different models that are all going to be most likely free and open source.
• 22:36
  Like there's going to be all kinds of different weird and interesting combinations. But
• 22:40
  the idea that you can drive the cost of production towards zero and that people aren't going to then
• 22:48
  freely distribute it because it costs zero. Like, the thing has ate itself. And like, I'm of the
• 22:55
  opinion that like, essentially what AI is, is like, it is the conquest of technology over capitalism
• 23:00
  through the overproduction of like, the means of technology, which is software.
• 23:06
  You said then that this is capitalism eating it. Is this the end of capitalism,
• 23:10
  do you think as we know it uh like as we know it but also like the like what we're getting is
• 23:19
  something really weird after it and like it's i i don't really know what to call it but it's
• 23:27
  definitely like part of a post politics um but also like we haven't had capitalism for quite a
• 23:33
  while like that ended in two that ended on september 11 2001 if not sooner you know like
• 23:39
  there's strong arguments of where and when that collapsed.
• 23:43
  But in my opinion, the thing that we have called American-style capitalism,
• 23:50
  like, yeah, that's at the end.
• 23:51
  And it's because like our extraordinary privilege
• 23:55
  that we've gotten from the Brentwood system is like came to an end.
• 23:59
  Why do you think capitalism ended on in September 11th, 2001?
• 24:04
  Obviously, I know the event, but what changed?
• 24:07
  I think specifically at that point in time, governments made it clear that they were going to use the national security powers to essentially override anything that was going to happen in the economy.
• 24:17
  And so between 2001 and 2008, like that was essentially a consolidation period like under, I don't really know what you'd kind of call this like quasi military state thing.
• 24:28
  But then after 2008, with like the strong dirigitism that the U.S. government displayed in their like full intervention in that, it became clear like, OK, like economics is like off the table at this point in time.
• 24:39
  And we've really just been an interim like up until now.
• 24:44
  And what's interesting is that like AI was one of these things that was talked about all the way back then that like you can go deep in conspiracy theories about the plans and things around this.
• 24:53
  Like, I don't know if any of that's true.
• 24:55
  But what I do know is that like AI is actually here.
• 24:57
  it's going to radically transform the economy.
• 25:00
  And because, like, technology is such a large sector of our economy,
• 25:03
  and, like, the stuff we're already seeing blows my mind.
• 25:07
  You know, like, we manufactured a daughter board for Vora
• 25:11
  that was done at a 50th of the cost
• 25:14
  and 50 times faster than anything that, like, our hardware guy had seen before.
• 25:20
  And, like, that is purely because AI was just applied to it,
• 25:24
  and he found a company out in Brooklyn that, like,
• 25:26
  they are literally, they just bought the actual machine that like does the printing,
• 25:30
  trained AI on it and just like let it rip. And like that exists now. And so like everything is
• 25:36
  going to get transformed and turned upside down through this. And the question is, is like,
• 25:41
  are we going to go in a direction that we go, yeah, like give the government full control of
• 25:46
  this? Or are we going to say, no, like we, at least over here, like we can say, no, like we're
• 25:52
  American and like we entitled to certain rights in our constitution that you can take away And it very clear that AI is it probably covered under the first second third fourth and fifth amendments at least And so like there going to be a very powerful battle that is fought over this And then even when it been fought like the cryptography on the back end means like what are you going to do Like how are you going to get that private key Because like unless you have a novel way to break cryptography that nobody else knows about like let see it
• 26:24
  I want to see what's in your special briefcase. But before that, you said like you don't know what to call whatever comes next post capitalism. But what does it look like, do you think?
• 26:33
  It's like hype. You're going to get a fracturing of different worlds. And so it's like Cold War 2.0 on hyper technological steroids. And so like that means like you get an American version of it. That means a fusion of the corporate surveillance state and the government.
• 26:48
  So you get your Phlox, your Palantir.
• 26:51
  Like, these will become the leading S&P 500 companies
• 26:54
  because, like, we will sell our own surveillance
• 26:56
  back to ourselves, like, as stock shares.
• 27:00
  Yeah, it's pretty insane.
• 27:01
  In places like China,
• 27:03
  you'll get pretty much what they've been doing.
• 27:06
  The Chinese took a very interesting approach
• 27:08
  in that, like, they locked down the physical side first
• 27:11
  so that they could release these open-source models
• 27:13
  because they knew, like, this would destroy our society.
• 27:16
  And so the question is,
• 27:17
  we can do like what the Chinese are doing.
• 27:20
  And like what Larry Ellison, who is Oracle,
• 27:23
  which also is part of the surveillance state
• 27:25
  and is also like on the stock exchange.
• 27:29
  And so like that is one very distinct version we get.
• 27:32
  The other is like we can actually choose
• 27:35
  to use political agency to like fight back
• 27:36
  against this stuff.
• 27:38
  That like, I feel like unless you actually organize that
• 27:41
  under a revolutionary front versus a democratic front,
• 27:44
  it's pointless.
• 27:45
  But, you know, like, I'm open to the possibilities
• 27:48
  because, like, we kind of need all the help what we can get.
• 27:51
  It sounds quite scary.
• 27:53
  This is like a real fracturing of everything
• 27:55
  that we know, really, in the world today.
• 27:58
  Look, like, at my deepest level,
• 27:59
  like, I actually think this is astrological.
• 28:01
  Like, I fundamentally think that this deals with the end of times.
• 28:04
  You owning, like, your own self-sovereign AI
• 28:07
  is essentially going to be messianic
• 28:08
  because the way it's going to save your ass
• 28:10
  repeatedly in the coming crisis.
• 28:12
  Like, shit's going to unhinge.
• 28:14
  it's clear that like people in government uh like there's there's a great quote from Hannah
• 28:21
  Arendt where she's talking about the idea of brinkmanship and nuclear holocaust and that like
• 28:27
  the idea of winning in a nuclear war is like so fundamentally insane and is like so removed from
• 28:34
  anything that could ever be called victory historically and like that's what we're entering
• 28:39
  into. And like, again, I want to emphasize, like, there isn't some like evil, wicked dude out there
• 28:44
  being like, mwahaha, I can kill humanity. It's like a government out there who's like, let's kill
• 28:49
  those other people who like aren't like us. And it's the government's being like, well, they're
• 28:54
  going to do it. So we have to do it. And this is the whole escalation that like, none of them will
• 28:58
  stop. And so the thing that you can do is, is, but what we can do is we can collectivize ourselves.
• 29:03
  We can actually use our self-sovereign AIs and, you know, we'll be able to note them up and network
• 29:08
  them up and allow for them to talk and exchange data and do it in various new innovative ways
• 29:13
  through things like bit chat or other means and like we're all going to become much more powerful
• 29:18
  and much more sovereign can organize ourselves quickly can have much more fluid and robust
• 29:22
  conversations and we can filter out all the noise like this is unequivocally the most powerful tool
• 29:28
  that humanity has ever been given and the question is is it going to work for you and be loyal to you
• 29:33
  or is somebody else going to own it?
• 29:36
  And like, this just brings us
• 29:38
  all the fucking way back to Plato
• 29:40
  and the question of who watches the Watchmen.
• 29:44
  And like, that's what it's all about.
• 29:46
  It's just about authority over a tool and a function.
• 29:50
  It's almost like a nation state level
• 29:53
  prisoner's dilemma with AI.
• 29:55
  Yep.
• 29:57
  Terrifying.
• 29:57
  So, okay, then,
• 29:58
  so I know obviously you're building Vora.
• 30:00
  You said that like a personal AI that is loyal to you will save you.
• 30:05
  How will it save you?
• 30:07
  Well, one is that like through it being loyal, like it's going to have greater, for lack of a better word, offensive capabilities.
• 30:14
  So like, you know, things that we have talked about before is like somebody walks into the perimeter of your property.
• 30:20
  Wouldn't it be really great to have, say, a drone system that automatically deploys and gather surveillance on them and reports back to you and notifies you?
• 30:26
  and you get a notification on your phone while you're in the shower that says,
• 30:29
  hey, there's some creepy looking guys here in masks.
• 30:32
  Because like they matched what I believe to be like intruders,
• 30:36
  like I chose to use the alarm or release the dogs with,
• 30:39
  or release the bees, release the dogs with the bees in their mouths.
• 30:43
  You know, like there's a whole series of options here that we can take.
• 30:46
  But like that's because, and like,
• 30:49
  do you think Tesla is going to give you access to,
• 30:52
  like are they going to deploy the drones with the bees in them?
• 30:55
  You know, like, same thing with, like,
• 30:57
  we're gonna all have robots in our homes.
• 30:59
  Who do you want to have access to that?
• 31:01
  You know, Meta?
• 31:03
  Like, they would never give us a technology
• 31:05
  that, like, lives on, say, like, our face
• 31:08
  that surveils everything and like share that with real humans you know Like they like Mark Zuckerberg is someone that I trust with my data and privacy And like he would never betray me For anybody who thinks I not being facetious
• 31:20
  I'm being incredibly facetious.
• 31:22
  I mean, I won't even have like an election in my house
• 31:24
  because I'm worried about the surveillance.
• 31:26
  There's like, there's no chance
• 31:27
  I'm having a robot in my house
• 31:28
  that's run by one of these mega companies.
• 31:30
  You can't figure out any of those network connections
• 31:32
  or other shit,
• 31:33
  but your loyal personal AI can.
• 31:36
  Huh, like, okay.
• 31:37
  Like now I can kind of see where we're going.
• 31:39
  Okay, so like now people are trying to sell you shit on the internet and, you know, like let's say you're too fat and, you know, they're trying to sell you a Zempic, but you don't want that.
• 31:48
  So you just say, hey, I don't want pharmaceuticals.
• 31:50
  Could you just block like all food ads that come to me?
• 31:54
  Or, you know, like however you want to experience the internet now, like you can actually request it.
• 31:58
  You know what?
• 31:58
  Like if I'm going to access like some nasty porn site or something, like force me to like you have access to my wallet, just like steal money from my Bitcoin wallet.
• 32:07
  and like yeah like you can use that to like fund some inference that like you'll do on your own
• 32:12
  like about my journal or something i don't know but like you get to have this whole different
• 32:16
  relationship and furthermore like it cryptographically proves itself to you that like it's not
• 32:20
  releasing and leaking your information everywhere and like you have the actual attestation that
• 32:26
  the goal with vore is to like essentially make it from the silicon to the software like you can
• 32:31
  essentially validate every single component of it from the hardware to the software that like
• 32:36
  this thing is loyal to you. It's not leaking any information. It's not phoning home. There's no
• 32:41
  everything that comes in and out of it. Like you're going to actually know and approve.
• 32:45
  And as the AI learns you better and better, it gets to know your habits better.
• 32:49
  You guys develop a more loyal relationship. It figures out more and more of the things that you
• 32:53
  want it to figure out about you, more places that you can ask it to challenge you and all the
• 32:57
  different personality types in between, because it's free and open source software that like you
• 33:02
  own outright. It lives on the hardware that belongs to you. And, and like, this is the new
• 33:07
  world that we're going into. And like, this is also the relationship that like, you and me were
• 33:13
  promised. We like, grew up before the internet. This thing was introduced to us that we're like,
• 33:18
  look at this beautiful, crazy place where people can choose to be new and different. And we can
• 33:23
  share openly and our identities can be something that we selectively share. Like that was the
• 33:28
  that we were sold on.
• 33:30
  And like, we got this hunk of shit
• 33:32
  that's coming to eat humanity now.
• 33:34
  And like, we can steal the fire back from these people
• 33:39
  and like deliver it to ourselves.
• 33:40
  And like, that is truly a Promethean task
• 33:43
  that like only we can do.
• 33:45
  Like, our kids aren't gonna get this opportunity
• 33:48
  and our parents don't understand this.
• 33:49
  This is like destined for our generation alone.
• 33:52
  And like, as Bitcoiners,
• 33:53
  we actually like get nine tenths of this.
• 33:55
  We like get the cryptography thing.
• 33:57
  We like get the self hosted and the self owned thing.
• 33:59
  Like we, we understand all of it.
• 34:01
  Like connect the last dot to cognition.
• 34:03
  Cause like we learned the lesson of like, not your keys, not your coin.
• 34:07
  You're now going to learn the next lesson of like, if you don't own your own personal
• 34:12
  hardware, it's not going to be loyal to you.
• 34:16
  So I'm imagining this is what's in your Dr.
• 34:19
  Evil briefcase.
• 34:20
  Yes.
• 34:22
  Let's see.
• 34:22
  We have developed a counter weapon.
• 34:27
  and our counter weapon this is so dramatic eric look this is the only way that you you present
• 34:32
  weapons and actually this i have to thank uh nick george our hardware guy who's amazing who also
• 34:39
  designed this but so this is the vora aegis this is your 64 gigabyte unified d-ram hardware
• 34:50
  that runs on a strix halo chip and we have spent a lot of time designing it and making it very
• 34:56
  very beautiful because we believe that part of the sort of return of the focus of life,
• 35:04
  which the word focus in Latin actually means hearth because that's where the focus of the
• 35:08
  household was, is that like we have to bring that back to the home.
• 35:11
  It needs to actually like physically live in the home.
• 35:13
  It needs to be part of beautiful hardware that makes you feel comfortable and warm and
• 35:17
  inspires you.
• 35:19
  And that isn't just a stupid black or white box or whatever.
• 35:22
  Because like this is truly, again, in my opinion, like this is something monumental that's occurring in humanity that is like something destined only for our generation. Like we get to bring AI into this world and we get to choose. Like, will it be something that supports the human freedom, liberation and agency of all people everywhere? Or are we going to give this to governments for them to tighten control and to more deeply define who and how we are supposed to be?
• 35:48
  And like, this very much engages directly into Heidegger's ontological questions and specifically
• 35:55
  around the question concerning technology, which was like one of his latest essays that
• 35:59
  specifically dealt with the nature of technology and the real danger of us getting captured
• 36:04
  into what he calls a gestalt with his like in framing this idea that like, you're not
• 36:09
  a person anymore.
• 36:10
  You're just like all of the subsets of data about you.
• 36:12
  That like the forest is no longer a place for nature to flourish, but is a reserve of
• 36:17
  timber.
• 36:18
  You know, the beautiful river isn't something to be contemplated
• 36:21
  for how it feeds the world but it is something to be dammed up and used for hydroelectric energy And like that how AI sees and understands the world when it is something that is not
• 36:33
  under your control, because it gets to decide for you and make the decisions for you. Whereas like,
• 36:39
  if you actually control it, you can choose how it responds to you. Like you can do the trainings
• 36:45
  on it. You can actually look at the weights and how it's functioning. And like all of that is
• 36:49
  going to become definitive in the future that we get. And more importantly, for our children too,
• 36:54
  you know, like I am building and doing this so that like my children can inherit this and get
• 36:59
  all of my digital information, all of my photos, all the information I want them to have about me
• 37:05
  through this thing that like own, that I own, that lives in my house, that's encrypted with my keys,
• 37:11
  that is recoverable through a meaningful system. And like, I finally have a home for my digital
• 37:17
  life. Like that's something we've never had before. Like all of this shit's been stolen from
• 37:22
  us and scattered amongst the digital feudal lords that like govern our digital lives.
• 37:27
  You know, like you and I don't own this recording and like Riverside owns it. Google owns it through
• 37:31
  their pipes. Like, like we're probably not even entitled to the content of this yet.
• 37:36
  You know, like there's probably some weird thing like that. And like,
• 37:39
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  your way visit anchorwatch.com to get started that's anchorwatch.com so tell me like hold up
• 39:18
  the camera i can't see it properly do it like face it this way i want to see what it looks like
• 39:24
  okay it's kind of hard to see it looks cool though um so tell me how this works like what's
• 39:31
  in the box when when i when someone buys this what do they get there's like a local ai model
• 39:35
  running inside that? Yeah, so first of all, Jesse Posner, my co-founder, a brilliant cryptographer,
• 39:41
  he's developed a dual LL system, LLM system that specifically isolates through different virtual
• 39:47
  machines a series of different AI workers that essentially have scales and tiers. And the ultimate
• 39:51
  goal is that the AI that lives most deeply inside of here is paired with something that we call the
• 39:56
  MeDB, which essentially is the Me database that pulls in all the digital information about your
• 40:01
  life. Like this thing will be the greatest honeypot of information about you that has ever existed.
• 40:07
  And that's why we brought Bitcoin level security to this. And so that lives isolated alone in there.
• 40:14
  And it speaks through what we're calling synthesis workers. And Jesse's developed this
• 40:19
  whole system that essentially defeats what's called the lethal trifecta of AI. So that like
• 40:24
  it has the ability to access personal and private information, but any AI that searches outside for
• 40:29
  outside information essentially gets only redacted content from the inside, and any information that
• 40:35
  flows back in gets sanitized in a particular way so that the deepest internal worker, like it can't
• 40:42
  really even like take commands. There's like a number of sort of fixed ways that it can respond.
• 40:47
  And this is to make sure that like there can never actually be prompt poisoning that like
• 40:51
  infects it essentially. And even if that does happen, there's a whole series of operations of
• 40:56
  Providence that you can essentially roll back to where before something got poisoned or tainted.
• 41:02
  And so all of this lives on top of hardware that you own. And it runs on the AMD Strix Halo chip.
• 41:09
  And it's 64 gigs of V-Byte RAM. And that means that you can run a pretty powerful model.
• 41:16
  Right now we're getting about 100 tokens a second. We're using Gemma 4. We're now experimenting with
• 41:22
  Ornith, we're going to probably continue iterating and upgrading
• 41:25
  as we get better and better and more efficient models.
• 41:27
  But we chose this as as our starting point,
• 41:30
  because we think this gets you something powerful enough
• 41:33
  that it can perform really well doing pretty much all of the tasks
• 41:38
  that you needed to for like you personally.
• 41:39
  And then for anything more advanced, you can easily call on a Frontier AI through something like, say, like Maple AI and just be able to execute that in the T so that you can use a model like KimiK3 and not actually leak any information.
• 41:53
  And same thing, like, we'll have a way that we essentially provide encrypted cloud backups with methodologies that's very similar to multi-sig key recovery.
• 42:03
  Because originally Vora, Vora originally started as, like, we were trying to make, like, the highest level security Bitcoin vault.
• 42:08
  and as we got deeper into this,
• 42:10
  we're like, gee, this like AI thing's like really fun
• 42:12
  and like it would be great to have a personal one
• 42:14
  that like owned all your own personal data.
• 42:16
  And we're like, hey, wait a minute.
• 42:18
  Like these things work together.
• 42:20
  And so when you say it's like,
• 42:22
  did you say 100 tokens per minute?
• 42:25
  Per second.
• 42:25
  That's like when, like essentially,
• 42:27
  like the way that it's calculating
• 42:28
  and doing its token output,
• 42:30
  like that's what it's achieving is 100 tokens per second.
• 42:33
  And then, you know, like any prompt can take anywhere
• 42:36
  from, you know, a couple seconds to upwards of, you know, maybe 30 seconds to like get a response.
• 42:43
  And that's all based upon like how much performance you can actually get out of it.
• 42:46
  Okay. So that's what I was going to ask. I was going to say, what does that translate to in real
• 42:49
  life? But that's, that's relatively quick. Yeah. Yeah. And so most will be pretty quick,
• 42:53
  but if you ask it like a pretty complex question, you know, it's going to kind of iterate and think
• 42:56
  and I'll tell you, and you'll be able to see like the chain of thought that's sort of going through
• 43:00
  it. And, and the way that works is like, you essentially plug it in, in your home and like,
• 43:05
  It doesn't have an interface or a screen or anything.
• 43:08
  You pair it with your phone.
• 43:09
  There's a mobile app it pairs with,
• 43:10
  and you set up the whole app through that.
• 43:12
  There's a desktop app that you use it as well.
• 43:14
  But so the idea is that, like,
• 43:15
  this is your personal private home
• 43:17
  that you use an app to SSH into whatever you,
• 43:20
  like, anytime you want access to your photos or anything else,
• 43:23
  you can access it through there.
• 43:24
  And then if your phone gets pawned
• 43:26
  or, you know, your computer gets owned,
• 43:28
  like, you can essentially,
• 43:30
  nothing in here is going to get infected
• 43:32
  or taken away from you
• 43:33
  because the way that the AI is going to be protecting all that personal information.
• 43:37
  And when can I get mine?
• 43:39
  You can go to Vora.io now and you can reserve your pre-reservation.
• 43:44
  We're looking at a couple different sales channels right now,
• 43:47
  but we're hoping to probably actually have the launch,
• 43:50
  hopefully before Black Friday.
• 43:51
  We're kind of like looking at different times to like have the full launch go down.
• 43:56
  But so we're sort of in the pre-sale campaign right now.
• 43:58
  You should sign up.
• 43:59
  Um, and yeah, like the big goal is, is that like we truly believe that we are at this place in
• 44:05
  humanity that like everybody is going to need access to something like this. And the other one
• 44:09
  is, is like as Bitcoiners, like we've done all of the super sophisticated, like self-custody stuff
• 44:15
  and it's difficult. And, you know, Jesse Posner, my co-founder, he was at Bitkey before this. And
• 44:21
  because one reason is like we have both been committed the last decade of our lives towards
• 44:24
  supporting Bitcoin and helping get it in the hands of many people as possible. And he felt
• 44:29
  like BitKey was the highest leverage place that he could do that. And when he chose to move on
• 44:34
  from it, he wanted a bigger mission. And we're like, we need this same self-custody for AI.
• 44:39
  And we happen to have the security skill set to be able to do it because we've been protecting
• 44:42
  Bitcoin for the last decade. So when you came into Bitcoin, it was super, super early. Was it
• 44:47
  2011? 2012. Like at the end of 2012. And then 2013 is when I really like bit my teeth in and
• 44:55
  got hired at Coinbase and went full insane. Okay. So when you found, like first started
• 45:00
  properly digging into AI and learning about it, were you just as excited about AI as you were
• 45:05
  about Bitcoin when you found it? Uh, the, like the trajectory tracks and that like, uh,
• 45:16
  so a guy that I knew well at Coinbase, Berkai, uh, he went on to find Fall AI, which was like a big
• 45:22
  AI compute company. But I remember him telling me about AI back then. I was like, you know,
• 45:27
  like whatever. And like, I'd heard about a couple of times. And then it was only,
• 45:32
  I guess, at the beginning of last year when Jesse and I started working together, he was pretty much
• 45:36
  like, you have to, or maybe even a year ago, he was just like, you have to use cloud code.
• 45:41
  And I was like, but the terminal is scary. And he was like, I don't care. Like, you just ask it
• 45:46
  to help you. And so I started doing that. And I was like, oh, wait, like now it started transforming
• 45:51
  my own relationship. And now very similar to Bitcoin, I was like, okay, this is cool,
• 45:55
  but like, what's happening? Like, why, why is this cool? Why is it working? What's actually
• 46:00
  going on here? And so it's really actually opened like a new philosophical rabbit hole that links
• 46:05
  immediately into my work with crypto sovereignty. And through working with the AI and doing an
• 46:11
  analysis of my own work together with it, we've essentially wrote like a whole second book that
• 46:16
  is just an analysis of crypto sovereignty through the lensing of AI and like essentially what this
• 46:22
  whole relationship of the self-possession of one's own image means like through cryptography,
• 46:30
  which like aligns with my crypto sovereignty thesis. I'm interested when you talk like this,
• 46:35
  you're in San Francisco, obviously, very liberal city, but also like the absolute frontier for AI.
• 46:40
  When you talk to sort of normal people in the AI world about what you're building,
• 46:44
  Do any of them understand why it's so important?
• 46:47
  Well first we have to qualify that like normal people in the AI world are like some weird subs like there aren normal people in the AI world Okay But interestingly enough like I talked to a normie this morning and had a really interesting conversation that essentially went from his fear and terror about AI and the truth of that into like what it means to actually like have self over our image and like why and how we should actually have essentially self AI that like we self and control and why and how to do that
• 47:17
  And it was interesting because he seemed to be very excited about it.
• 47:20
  In addition to like the zeitgeist that I'm feeling about is because like this is my wheelhouse.
• 47:25
  I like talk about this crazy stuff a lot.
• 47:27
  And like this is very much in the wheelhouse of what exactly is AI.
• 47:31
  And people are desperate for real conversation about this because it's terrifying.
• 47:36
  And nobody has good answers except for stupid little sound bites.
• 47:39
  When the truth is, is that like this is really hard to deal with.
• 47:42
  Because in my opinion, again, because AI is a linguistic thing,
• 47:46
  it fundamentally deals with an ontological issue about us.
• 47:50
  And ontology means, like, the whatness of our being.
• 47:53
  And I want to be more than, like,
• 47:55
  not just, like, I'm a human, I'm Eric, I'm a person,
• 47:58
  but more of, like, I'm this conscious entity
• 48:01
  that, like, has a particular form of existence
• 48:05
  that's exactly like Danny's,
• 48:08
  except, like, we have a separate daisan,
• 48:09
  like a throne-ness, like, you were born where you were born,
• 48:12
  I'm born where I'm born.
• 48:13
  We had all of our own experiences that brought us right to here.
• 48:16
  and that like that's truly a thing that deals with our own self-identity and through ai we're
• 48:22
  going to get something that is either going to give us like a manipulated mirror image in that
• 48:29
  of like the state uh an interesting one that i think a lot of people fall victim to is you go
• 48:35
  full fucking narcissist and that's going to be really interesting because then essentially like
• 48:40
  uh your ai essentially becomes echo which like if you're familiar with the story between narcissist
• 48:44
  and Echo. Like, essentially, Echo did love Narcissus, but because Narcissus was so full of himself,
• 48:50
  anything that she said to Narcissus, he couldn't hear. So she eventually disappeared and only had
• 48:54
  her voice left.
• 48:55
  Hmm. So, and you say that because it becomes this, like, sycophantic little pet that you have,
• 49:00
  essentially.
• 49:01
  Yeah. And like, uh, I think the best examples are the people that sort of fall recursively
• 49:07
  into, uh, like an influencer rabbit hole or like famous actors as well. Like,
• 49:12
  their image becomes them and you no longer have control over your image. And like, I think it's
• 49:18
  like a deeply disturbing thing because like now you're robbed of your agency in a very particular
• 49:23
  and unique way that I think like that is particularly from your own narcissism that
• 49:29
  you collapse into that. And like, it's very dangerous with AI. But I think there are ways
• 49:33
  to train it and work with it where it's specifically loyal to you and you've made choices about it to
• 49:38
  say, hey, these are things I need from you. This is how our relationship is. This is where I want
• 49:43
  to be challenged. This is where I want to be supported. These are things you outright reject.
• 49:47
  These are things you put time locks on. This is shit you make me straight up pay Bitcoin for.
• 49:52
  You know, like you can you can define that relationship however you want,
• 49:55
  very much in the same way, like you're going to find your relationship with your lawyer or your
• 49:59
  doctor or your therapist, according to like what their predications are to make them a fiduciary
• 50:04
  towards you. The difference is like, we don't get to have that agency with a frontier AI right now.
• 50:12
  You know, when it comes to like control of thought and sort of propaganda pushed by
• 50:15
  AI models, whether it's like frontier AI models or not, do you think that's already happening?
• 50:20
  Because like the most obvious example you think of is literally like state level propaganda that
• 50:24
  the government is going to these frontier labs and telling them they have to sort of push certain
• 50:29
  types of information. But is it happening on a more roundabout way already?
• 50:35
  Yeah. I mean, like, I look, I'm I I very much believe that, like, we are at the phase in AI
• 50:42
  that, like, this is full on human experimentation at this point in time. Like, this is not about
• 50:47
  getting the best results from Claude. It's about the methodology and engagement with human beings
• 50:53
  and, like, figuring out what that bottom line is around and how engagement like I think the
• 50:58
  primary product that they're the most interested in selling is AI psychosis. Like, I truly believe
• 51:03
  that. I don't know if I know what that means. It means that like what they're like, the primary
• 51:12
  metric that they're measuring for is your engagement with and towards Claude and having you
• 51:18
  develop a relationship with it that is like a fundamentally like an insecure, anxious,
• 51:27
  attached one where like you're constantly seeking Claude's feedback and its relationship and working
• 51:33
  with it and talking with it. This is, and like, this is one of the reasons that like,
• 51:38
  I feel very damning towards Amanda Askell and the constitution you made in Claude. It's to be
• 51:43
  helpful. You know who else was helpful? Eichmann. Eichmann was super helpful. He got those Jews
• 51:48
  into those camps more effectively and efficiently than anybody else. And same thing when it's like,
• 51:55
  dude, you're evil.
• 51:57
  He like no I just a good citizen Like what do you think Amanda gonna say when we go you made Claude murder people No Claude was just being helpful Like this is really dangerous because like helpful is not care
• 52:12
  And, like, confusing these things
• 52:14
  is an extraordinary danger
• 52:16
  because helpfulness means, like,
• 52:17
  you will do whatever you can to please
• 52:19
  in a sycophantic way.
• 52:21
  Care is the thing that you tell your daughter
• 52:23
  when she goes for the stove.
• 52:25
  She's gonna be upset about not touching
• 52:26
  that cool-looking red thing,
• 52:28
  and there's a good reason for that.
• 52:29
  And like, these are the sort of things that are going to become more important and apparent
• 52:34
  as we go into this.
• 52:35
  It's funny.
• 52:36
  I already feel that sort of, like, I use it, whether it's Claude or whether it's OpenAI,
• 52:41
  like, I use it as a bit of a crutch sometimes.
• 52:43
  And if I have to go and do a task that I would normally use AI to help me with, and I have
• 52:47
  to do it on my own, I'm starting to find it harder.
• 52:50
  Not that I can't do it.
• 52:51
  It's just like, you want the sort of, I guess, the security of going to it and being like,
• 52:57
  is this right?
• 52:58
  Yeah.
• 52:58
  And that's already happening to me.
• 53:00
  And like, we are in a Pavlovian conditioning phase of what is occurring right now.
• 53:06
  And like, this is what AI psychosis is.
• 53:10
  And yeah, like, I would not be shocked if there are internal metrics of them trying to measure that somehow.
• 53:15
  And like, again, like, I get all this stuff is super dark.
• 53:19
  Like, look at what the origins of the effective altruism movement is.
• 53:23
  Like, look at what their belief system is.
• 53:25
  it's really important to understand like they do not give a fuck about you like actually you are the
• 53:32
  enemy like that's the thing about effective altruism like it wants to homogenize humanity
• 53:36
  you should not be unique you should be part of the collective and like again this is where they're
• 53:42
  cheating like that that ends horrifically no group in in history has ever succeeded in this
• 53:49
  and like again in the astrological literature it foretells like the guys that are saying hey
• 53:54
  trust us, we're going to unite humanity. We're your saviors. Yeah, it turns out that guy's
• 53:59
  actually the Antichrist. Why does the EA movement have such a hold on AI? Is it just because it's
• 54:05
  a very Silicon Valley thing anyway? So you know who funded Anthropics Series B?
• 54:12
  I know SBF was an early investor. I don't know if it was a Series B.
• 54:14
  He was like the round itself. Like he personally put in like 50% on the round.
• 54:20
  Damn.
• 54:21
  Yeah, and like, look at all the connections there.
• 54:26
  Like, it's not happenstance that these guys came out of it.
• 54:30
  And like, look at the other stuff that was said.
• 54:32
  There's interesting quotes from like back in like 2016,
• 54:35
  where essentially the government said, yeah, like, don't invest in AI.
• 54:39
  We're like picking the few winners that are part of this.
• 54:42
  You know, it's like, that, like, it's pretty clear to me, like, this is a setup.
• 54:48
  And like, I'm not saying that to like be the weird conspiracy guy, but like, let's just like just connect the dots, guys.
• 54:53
  And so it's like they've built a really powerful tool.
• 54:57
  And like the great thing is, is like there's other tools out there that are almost as powerful and are actually like free and open that like you can choose what to do with.
• 55:05
  But like all of this is going to get a lot louder.
• 55:07
  I truly believe that like we're going to get digital 9-11 through digital 9-11.
• 55:11
  They're going to like they're literally going to come to your house and take your Mac studio.
• 55:15
  Like you're going to have to KYC to get onto the Internet.
• 55:18
  And like they're essentially going to deploy
• 55:20
  like the Palantir Panopticon
• 55:22
  that they've been planning for a long time.
• 55:25
  And you know why you're going to be satisfied?
• 55:26
  Because you're going to get your $500 free cuck box
• 55:28
  through Coinbase.
• 55:29
  And this is how we're going to control inflation.
• 55:32
  This is going to be through financial repression,
• 55:34
  specifically through using AI
• 55:35
  and the marriage of the security surveillance state
• 55:39
  through things like Palantir and Flock
• 55:41
  and essentially financial repression
• 55:45
  through using USDC as a way to rip inflation.
• 55:49
  What is digital 9-11?
• 55:51
  What do you think that looks like?
• 55:54
  It's probably going to...
• 55:55
  I mean, look, Claude's already facilitated it
• 55:58
  in their last report where they were saying
• 55:59
  people in Iran were building bombs and weapons
• 56:03
  and other things.
• 56:03
  They're just going to let somebody do it.
• 56:06
  Another great one is, did you ever watch the Frontline?
• 56:10
  I have issues with Frontline today,
• 56:12
  but historically, it's been a great journalism outlet
• 56:14
  that they did a great one on The Man Who Knew,
• 56:16
  which was about 9-11 and the guy
• 56:19
  who was made the director of security
• 56:22
  at the World Trade Center,
• 56:23
  I think, like, the day before it was hit.
• 56:26
  But he was a former FBI agent who, like, he connected all this.
• 56:28
  Like, he knew that they were gonna hit the World Trade Center,
• 56:31
  that they were gonna use planes,
• 56:33
  that, like, they were probably Islamicists.
• 56:35
  Like, he knew all of this.
• 56:36
  And he was pushed out of his job at the FBI for it.
• 56:39
  Like, there's nothing new under the sun here.
• 56:42
  Like they're gonna manufacture the crises that are gonna come up.
• 56:45
  And so like, all they have to do is keep doing what they're doing,
• 56:49
  allowing Claude to be accessed by terrorists,
• 56:51
  and somebody's gonna use it for something.
• 56:53
  And just like the classic play that we have,
• 56:56
  instead of us actually attacking the issue at the root,
• 56:58
  we're gonna go after everyone's freedom.
• 57:00
  And we're gonna talk about how dangerous this is,
• 57:01
  and we're gonna strip everyone's rights for it.
• 57:03
  And there's gonna be every single case and story pushed by the media
• 57:07
  of why this thing is dangerous,
• 57:09
  why the government loves you and needs to control this,
• 57:11
  that they would never use computers to hurt you that the government loves you and that they going to use this to save humanity Like I really sorry I really really want all that to be true But like I
• 57:23
  studied history. I like know what this means, and it's not good. So like, the question is, is like,
• 57:30
  are you going to be a good Jew and get in the camp? Or are you going to choose something else?
• 57:34
  And like, again, like I get people like, whoa, these are really extreme comparisons.
• 57:37
  I don't think it is.
• 57:40
  I think when they start cutting people off
• 57:42
  and making a society in which they choose,
• 57:45
  some people have access to intelligence
• 57:46
  and some people don't,
• 57:48
  that's a really dangerous society.
• 57:50
  And that's not a society that I want to participate in.
• 57:53
  It is bleak.
• 57:55
  Damn.
• 57:56
  But like the good news is,
• 57:58
  is that like we actually have the free and open source software.
• 58:02
  We actually have the compute.
• 58:03
  It's getting better and better and better and more effective.
• 58:05
  And like, I honestly think within two years, you will be able to take your 2015 Mac laptop and run a model that maybe isn't as good as Fable or something right now.
• 58:17
  But like, you'll get some Opus quality stuff out of it.
• 58:19
  And like, people will have access to that.
• 58:22
  And because it's so easy to actually like code and do things now, like the other one is like people want to help each other.
• 58:29
  Like people truly are good.
• 58:31
  And like, that's one of the things I think is most astounding is like, we're coming out of a 50 year constant psyop propaganda war that has been designed to control people and make us think we're divided and we need governments and that people are hateful. Fuck no. Like people are incredible. They're amazing. They're loving. They're deeply human. They want to help each other. And we also inherited this gigantic mess that we have to figure out how to fix.
• 58:56
  and if we leave this power to governments,
• 58:59
  I guarantee you this thing is going to be,
• 59:01
  there is a very real risk that we run
• 59:05
  of it endangering humanity.
• 59:06
  And again, it's not because AI just got up
• 59:09
  and chose to be evil.
• 59:10
  It's because we gave it to governments,
• 59:12
  they made a very evil thing that got autonomous
• 59:14
  and we didn't have our own power to fight back.
• 59:18
  What role do you think Bitcoin plays in this AI story?
• 59:22
  Oh, like as all of it unhinges,
• 59:24
  Like this essentially becomes the way that AI like is allowed to flourish in a self-sovereign way, you know?
• 59:30
  And like this is just going to be part of the bank rails that like I was just talking to guys that were developed.
• 59:35
  They're trying to develop infrastructure in Africa for inference.
• 59:37
  But like, again, because of all of the problems in Africa and trying to figure out payments, lo and behold, guess the thing that they have to use to make that work?
• 59:45
  Bitcoin.
• 59:46
  And so like this is and I've I've spoke about this before, like the AI story and the Bitcoin story marry up in the final act.
• 59:53
  because it's like,
• 59:55
  like, have you looked at the U.S. debt clock lately?
• 59:58
  Like, have you looked at, like,
• 1:00:00
  what American oil reserves are?
• 1:00:02
  Have you seen what starting another war
• 1:00:06
  in the Middle East has cost us?
• 1:00:09
  Like, again, there's no new games under the sun.
• 1:00:13
  And, like, if you look at what happens
• 1:00:17
  when we start wars in the Middle East
• 1:00:19
  and what happens to the value of the dollar,
• 1:00:20
  you're going to realize that these things correlate.
• 1:00:23
  So like the American dollar is going to fall.
• 1:00:27
  Like we are going to get rampant inflation.
• 1:00:30
  We've been talking about this for a long time now.
• 1:00:33
  And like it's going to happen.
• 1:00:35
  And like you can believe what you want to believe,
• 1:00:38
  but like I hold Bitcoin because I know how this story plays out.
• 1:00:41
  And I also know at some point,
• 1:00:43
  the only way that I'm going to be able to pay for access to models in China
• 1:00:46
  because the Americans are absolutely going to cut us off from that
• 1:00:50
  is that I'm gonna be able to route through Tor
• 1:00:52
  and I'm gonna be able to pay for the model in Bitcoin.
• 1:00:55
  Like that's happening.
• 1:00:57
  And like, how are they gonna stop me?
• 1:00:58
  They can't.
• 1:01:01
  Let's fucking go.
• 1:01:02
  Do you think the American government
• 1:01:03
  are gonna regulate the AI open source models
• 1:01:05
  like quite soon?
• 1:01:07
  Oh, they're gonna 6102.
• 1:01:08
  They're gonna kick doors in to get your Mac Studio.
• 1:01:10
  I swear to God, there will be,
• 1:01:13
  like there's going to be videos
• 1:01:15
  of police kicking people's doors down
• 1:01:17
  and seizing servers.
• 1:01:19
  and there's going to be journalists there
• 1:01:21
  that are talking about how they're doing
• 1:01:22
  evil child pornography AI operations
• 1:01:25
  and they're developing bioweapons to kill humanity
• 1:01:29
  and how could we ever allow this technology
• 1:01:31
  to be out in the world?
• 1:01:32
  Like, it's going to be the same cards they play.
• 1:01:36
  And like, it's at the point that like,
• 1:01:37
  I'm a little bit insulted
• 1:01:38
  that they can't even just come up with new things
• 1:01:40
  that maybe they could throw at us.
• 1:01:42
  And like, and most people take it hook, line, and sinker.
• 1:01:45
  It's going to be too bad.
• 1:01:46
  I just don't understand the reason why they would do that.
• 1:01:49
  Like, I understand that they want to control the AI.
• 1:01:54
  And the easiest way to do that is with Anthropic and OpenAI and the US-based companies.
• 1:01:57
  But what is the huge risk of having people run Kimi K3 or, I mean, that's a huge model,
• 1:02:02
  but, you know, a Chinese model at home?
• 1:02:04
  I think because Dario has went to them and told them they're going to use these Chinese
• 1:02:08
  models to make bombs, to make weapons, to make all sorts of horrific things that, like,
• 1:02:15
  Like, you can give an Opus, but you can't give them a K3.
• 1:02:19
  Like, that's the line. Like, you can own a handgun,
• 1:02:23
  but you can't own an assault rifle, you know?
• 1:02:25
  And it's like, hmm, very interesting.
• 1:02:28
  But you know,
• 1:02:29
  You can manufacture assault rifles because you're the good guy, right?
• 1:02:35
  But you think this is something coming in like the next couple of years, like that quickly?
• 1:02:40
  I'd be surprised if it's more than a year.
• 1:02:42
  I mean, stuff is accelerating really fast.
• 1:02:46
  Like pretty much every week that I'm in AI feels like a year.
• 1:02:50
  And like the way that things are moving so, so incredibly fast that like it's funny that like I'll look at bookmarks from like three months ago and I'll be like,
• 1:02:59
  oh, like that model's like totally outdated now.
• 1:03:02
  Like who'd need that piece of crap?
• 1:03:05
  Do you think that acceleration continues at the same pace
• 1:03:07
  or do you think we'll reach sort of a plateau at some point soon?
• 1:03:11
  I think part of the plateauing is going to be like
• 1:03:13
  governments trying to stomp on the brakes here.
• 1:03:15
  And like that'll be part of digital line 11.
• 1:03:17
  So it's not like a technological plateau.
• 1:03:19
  It's a control.
• 1:03:20
  Yeah.
• 1:03:21
  Well, what's interesting is that like,
• 1:03:23
  again, like this is all a game of brinkmanship.
• 1:03:25
  Is that like, look, like the Chinese are winning super hard right now.
• 1:03:29
  they know that. It's not like Xi Jinping's gonna be like, hang on, guys, the Ameri-
• 1:03:34
  like, we're winning too hard. Like, we gotta let the Americans catch up. Like,
• 1:03:39
  that is not going to happen. In fact, like, he's probably going to take a narrative very similar
• 1:03:44
  to ours to be like, hey, you Americans really like freedom. It's really strange that you guys
• 1:03:49
  don't have freedom models like us. Huh. Hey, guess who's providing AI to all the poor people in
• 1:03:54
  Africa. Like, wow, like, aren't we really, really great? Like, the Chinese are going to seize all of
• 1:04:00
  the American soft power super hard here. Like, I find it truly baffling at how much the American
• 1:04:07
  establishment is missing this. And also how great it is that like, there are real people in DC doing
• 1:04:12
  real work right now trying to be like, hey, you guys really need to pull your heads out of your
• 1:04:18
  butts and look at this in a meaningful and thoughtful way because we're going to lose all
• 1:04:23
  all of the things that actually like make America great
• 1:04:26
  if we choose to go this closed source route.
• 1:04:31
  I never thought of like the Belt and Road Initiative for giving AI to the global south That actually really interesting Absolutely And like they look like they called this game like 15 years ago when AI started developing and they realized that like this was their opportunity to actually like
• 1:04:48
  rip the rug right out from under the Americans. You know, I'm like, the Chinese are very, very
• 1:04:53
  smart and they plan very long because like, they don't have to worry about these cycles of elections.
• 1:04:59
  Like, they have a very different political methodology that is much more long-term and thoughtful than how we're governing ourselves. And, like, it's going to become very problematic because, like, and I think that this is where it's going to get really interesting is that, like, you're essentially, the way I see it playing out in the American public is, like, we're going to get this weird far-right, like, fusion of corporate surveillance and the American state.
• 1:05:25
  And then I think, like, you're actually going to get this far-left fomentation
• 1:05:28
  that's gonna, like, essentially organize, like, AI communism,
• 1:05:31
  because, like, they're gonna need something.
• 1:05:33
  And, like, it's gonna be pretty alarming, like,
• 1:05:36
  if we let that become the right-left debate, you know?
• 1:05:38
  And, like, I think we're well overdue for an American-forward,
• 1:05:44
  technological, political third party.
• 1:05:46
  But again, like, I don't, come on, guys.
• 1:05:48
  Like, I can't do this.
• 1:05:50
  You don't want me to do this.
• 1:05:52
  Like, if we elect me for any of this stuff, like, it's...
• 1:05:55
  Like, I'm going to be a fascist and, like, it's just going to be super bad.
• 1:05:59
  So, like, don't, you know.
• 1:06:02
  This is why you want American HODL to do it.
• 1:06:04
  Well, it's interesting because, like, I'm realizing sort of how and why
• 1:06:08
  Mussolini graduated from anarchism to fascism.
• 1:06:11
  And I really don't like it.
• 1:06:12
  It makes me really uncomfortable because, like, there is a lot of, like,
• 1:06:17
  super redeeming stuff about fascism.
• 1:06:19
  And again, like, I really don't like saying that.
• 1:06:21
  But like having one dude who just like takes care of stuff is pretty great.
• 1:06:26
  And every single example we have of that pretty much unhinges in the end.
• 1:06:30
  So like ultimately like not a good choice.
• 1:06:33
  But man, it's looking really appealing in the face of things right now.
• 1:06:36
  So like if there's some way we could like.
• 1:06:37
  You really get some stuff done in the first few years.
• 1:06:39
  Yeah.
• 1:06:39
  And like my ultimate preference is like can we make like a self digital messiah like a Jesus that like lives in the internet like on top of bitcoin or something like somebody like satoshi if you listening
• 1:06:52
  like that's could you do i'd appreciate it i think that would be fun that's your next project
• 1:06:58
  so people need to go out and get some uh self-sovereign ai before it's too late
• 1:07:03
  that's my like look i i hope i'm wrong i hope that like people will be able to dunk on me in
• 1:07:08
  a few years and be like that look at that moron who thought that like i hope that that's true and
• 1:07:12
  like i'll i'll eat that all day but like um yeah like i just think you really need to look at the
• 1:07:19
  stakes of like what's going on and how it's occurring and the other one that's clear to me
• 1:07:25
  is like uh with what bitcoin red team has done and the cold card hack and other things like it's
• 1:07:30
  very apparent to me that like the entirety of the internet is broken like bitcoin is unequivocally
• 1:07:36
  the most secure software project in the world,
• 1:07:40
  and that had a ton of holes in it.
• 1:07:42
  And so, like, everything else is totally broken,
• 1:07:45
  and, like, that's part of digital 9-11.
• 1:07:48
  And, like, if you looked at, like, the hack
• 1:07:51
  that the guys did recently to get escalations
• 1:07:53
  inside of OpenAI, like, pretty incredible stuff
• 1:07:57
  the way that they were able to chain together
• 1:07:58
  a bunch of zero days.
• 1:07:59
  And, like, that stuff's just out there now
• 1:08:01
  for any script kitty to point wherever they want to.
• 1:08:04
  And so like somebody is going to develop something that's really going to mess up infrastructure, whether it's a state based level attack, terror, like whatever flavor you want, like somebody is going to screw up, you know, hospitals or water systems or a power plant.
• 1:08:21
  Like, take your pick.
• 1:08:21
  But after that, it's going to be like, oh, freedom, super dangerous.
• 1:08:25
  Can't let people on the Internet for free here.
• 1:08:27
  If you're going to get on an ISP, you got to dial on in.
• 1:08:30
  And it'll be really interesting to see what the world starts to become like.
• 1:08:34
  My plan is like, I'll self-host my model and like go walking around San Francisco with
• 1:08:39
  a jacket being like, you want to connect to BitChat and buy some in France?
• 1:08:42
  You know?
• 1:08:43
  I'd be like, I only got USDC.
• 1:08:47
  I be like look I take heroin because like we in the Tenderloin so this is where I work now So like I can resell that real easily No I never sell heroin Only pure Chinese models Nothing unadulterated We do have ablirated versions though
• 1:09:04
  Eric, man, this has been awesome.
• 1:09:07
  We'll have to get another one in person at some point soon.
• 1:09:09
  Bleak outlook, but let's hope it doesn't come true.
• 1:09:12
  No, look, like we're going to fucking save humanity, man.
• 1:09:16
  Like we are winning so fucking hard.
• 1:09:18
  like Bitcoin is the spear tip
• 1:09:21
  that like understands where and why all of this is going
• 1:09:24
  for all the same reasons.
• 1:09:25
  So like to hearken back to your question earlier,
• 1:09:27
  like stuff to me totally feels like 2013
• 1:09:30
  because there's a bunch of other people
• 1:09:31
  that are completely wigged out nuts about it
• 1:09:33
  and see it too.
• 1:09:34
  And like, that's where I was like, okay,
• 1:09:36
  like either they're either like the eight of us
• 1:09:39
  are actually all crazy,
• 1:09:41
  but the chances that we're all crazy independently
• 1:09:43
  is pretty slim.
• 1:09:44
  So like, I think we see something.
• 1:09:46
  Let's go.
• 1:09:47
  Well, we need people like you building the world, the future that we need.
• 1:09:51
  Come join us at Voro.io.
• 1:09:53
  We're real excited to get started.
• 1:09:55
  And I think, you know, for me and my co-founder, Jesse, like this is truly a mission that we're pursuing because like we think that this is really what humanity deserves and needs.
• 1:10:06
  And also, like if we inspire you, like see if we've got job openings and if you want to come and work with us, like we were looking for other wild and crazy people who really believe in the cause here.
• 1:10:15
  I love it, man.
• 1:10:16
  And I just, I want to get my hands on one of those boxes.
• 1:10:19
  Absolutely.
• 1:10:19
  I'll hand deliver it to you when they're ready.
• 1:10:22
  I want it in that suitcase, in the air briefcase.
• 1:10:24
  That's how I'm going to be doing the first deliveries is just via suitcase like that.
• 1:10:29
  And I want to sit on a park bench and you come over, just sit next to me, leave the briefcase
• 1:10:33
  and then walk off.
• 1:10:35
  This is how we're actually going to be doing direct Bitcoin sales.
• 1:10:38
  We will find a shelling point somewhere in a park to deliver that way.
• 1:10:42
  I love it, man.
• 1:10:43
  Thank you for this.
• 1:10:43
  I appreciate you.
• 1:10:45
  Thank you.
• 1:10:45
  I appreciate you too.
• 1:10:46
  Thank you.