Latest / Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash / #234 The Silent Struggle Of Dads with Dr Zac

Transcript

#234 The Silent Struggle Of Dads with Dr Zac · Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Matt.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: It is Men's Health Week and we are stoked to
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: work with November, bringing doctor Zach Seidler, their global director
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: of Research at November on the pod.
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: Look, they've just released a really amazing report. It's called
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: More Than a Provider, and we're going to put the
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: link in the show notes, so if you want to
• 0:32
  Speaker 3: have a read of the report, you can get access
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: to it. The stats aren't going to surprise you, but
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: I think it's really important to acknowledge some of the
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: figures like one in four fathers rated their mental health
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: as poor in the first year of fatherhood and one
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: in five reported feelings isolated or lonely.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: These topics have been coming up a lot on the pod,
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: and it's great to have an expert to talk about
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: these things.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: And we all know that men aren't.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: The best at talking about their feelings. We think that
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: we're good at it, like we're good at everything else,
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: but unfortunately it is not the case.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: You know, we're lucky ash in that we have this podcast,
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: which we've said before it's our therapy each week, but
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: there are so many dads out there that aren't is
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: fortunate to have these conversations all the time.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: I think it goes without saying Matt that being a
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: dad is amazing, of course, but it's not all rainbows
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: and butterflies.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: There's a lot that goes into it.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: And for me, I've struggled throughout my fatherhood journey and
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: it's great to have someone on that we can pick
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: his brain and see if he can help some of
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: the other dads out there.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Just the heads up that within this episode we are
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: going to be talking about mental health, so we will
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: talk about topics of depression and self harm, but I
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: really want to stress that we also talk about some
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: really awesome tools to help yourself or your partner if
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: they are experiencing this kind of struggle.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: We'll leave all the details in the show notes, so
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: please enjoy the episode.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: Let's get into it. Welcome back to three doting dads.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: I'm Maddie, Jay, I'm Ash, and I'm doctor Zach Doctor.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: He's got a trump us with that a such a
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: flex took nine years, man, I'm a pilot.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: And this is a podcast all about parenting.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: It is the good, it is the bad and the relatable.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: And Zach, were do we have have we had a
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: doctor on? This may be our first doctor is Jenna doctor.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: She should be a doctor.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: We're really maturing the podcast here.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: This at level.
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: We did say at one point as a blanket rule,
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: we will never ever give advice, and even the listeners
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: were like, we don't want advice either, And then the
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: moment we gave to someone who could offer advice, they were.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Like, give us more or more of that ship.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you'll be delivering the ship today.
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: Hell yeah, hell yeah.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Where you're allowed to, we're not allowed to.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: We always like any advice that we do accidentally give,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: we've got to retract very quickly.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: But you you'll just jump on though and add to it,
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: so that'll be good.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Can I just check do you prefer doctor?
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: No?
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: No, no, no no, because I get into like doctor field
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: territory and that's terrifying.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Obviously your driver's license is doctor and stuff, right.
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: I like, when you get on a plane. This was
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: the reason I did a piece. I'm not a medical doctor.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: I'm a clinical psychologist. Let's be clear on that. When
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: I got on a plane the first time I got
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: my PhD, they go welcome doctor, just so you know
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: you're second in line for an emergency. And I'm like,
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: let's kill him. There there was a pediatric surgeon in business.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: So the child is injured.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, but I said, the vast majority of emergencies
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: are panic attacks, so I'm actually good to go that
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: in pregnancy. I've got both of those out.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: Your second, yeah, don't push, it will drop you. The
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: third we have a doctor, doctor Dres in the band.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: We start these podcasts off with finding a little bit
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: about the man. Okay, we want to understand what's the
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: most trouble that.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: You got in as a child.
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: Oh god, it's very telling to share this story because
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: it's like, I think I've come to the point where
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: my impulse control has matured, you know, I hope, But
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: as it like twelve thirteen year old, we lived above
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: a pretty main road, and we had a great ice
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: maker in our freezer, and we decided one summer day
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: that first we like me and my mates, were gonna
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: throw ice at each other because that's just a normal
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: thing to do. Yeah, of course, and then we were like, oh,
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: how strong is our arm? How far can we throw this?
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: And so they're they're chunky pieces, and we just launched
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: onto the main road and I cracked someone's wings and
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: I hid in the shower.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: With the hot water.
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, ironically, we were all hiding in the shower and
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: they're like pressing the buzzer like you well, it's also
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: because like it's a sunny day, it's hailing on me.
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: This is great, you know, but it's funny because it
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: is like folklore with my mates, like we talk about
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: the ice, you know, till the ice moments of yeah,
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: it was it was wild, it was wild?
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: Was there a punishment?
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: My mom didn't find out? I don't think so. She's
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: listening now because we just we hid until they went
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: away and then they seemingly didn't come back.
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: You've been disappointed, wouldn't you.
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, as a p that's not that's not good because
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: I messaged my mom last night being like what did
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: I What did I do? Like you got anything? She's
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: like you were perfect. I'm like lies, endless lies. But
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: you know, we'll take it now.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: She knows if she's asening this was it a good throw?
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Like oh yeah boy?
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: We also like we don't condone any level of ice
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: throwing in public. All I kind of want to get
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: some ice and throw.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Let's do it.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: We'll pause.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: This were really well, I thought, we're really closed, like
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: the Harbor Bridge. We could launch it off the overpass
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: there all the time.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: I know, water bombs like the kids like still do that?
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah? Full of p though, Oh jesus your kids. I'm
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: not giving anyone else.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: I do beaches.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Oh having a piss fighter standard.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: No, they are, They're very much there.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: That's pg.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: That's good.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: They've got the ones things now that fills up like
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: a hundred at once.
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: Wow, the future.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: That takes away the effort.
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: That was fun.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: We're not here talk about water bombs. Zach. You have
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: recently become a new dad five months ago. I want
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: to say congratulations, thank you. I think we spoke on Instagram.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Just before before.
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: Did I give you some any words of advice?
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: But I hope not, because you're not meant to.
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: Hold Yeah, hold on, hold on?
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Man's good?
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: How things going? Are you still holding on?
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: I'm holding on. My boy is like the cutest thing ever,
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: so like, regardless of the night of the day, just
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: attachment is made easy when you look. He actually doesn't
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: look anything like me, doesn't have to. He's got blue eyes.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Like it's trippy. How old now? Five months? Wow?
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: Five months and ten kilos man, he is no one
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: of you looks so clean and so happy, and it's great.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: I'm loving it.
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: Like I've done so much theorizing on fatherhood and now
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: it's it was time to get into the trenches, and
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: I was pumped.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Is it what you expected? Obviously, like researching the topic
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: versus being in the trenches and experiencing it can be
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: two separate things. How did you find the two?
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: Well, having listened to a lot of you guys and
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: trying to like grapple with the messiness of all of this,
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: my expectations were really loose, and I think that that
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: was the key. I've watched lots of my friends crumble
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: because they had this belief of what fatherhood would be,
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: and my clients as well. They were like, I'd read
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: this book or I'd been told that this was what
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: it was supposed to look like, and my child is
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: different wise, and is there something wrong with me? You know,
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: the whole idea around father's finding purpose and connection with
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: their kid, and it takes time, and it's like, why
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: has this not happened? I just went in being like
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: I'm going to do anything that I can to like
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: connect with my instincts here because I believe that they
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: are going to lead me down the right path and
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: he will tell me what he needs. Like I've done
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: enough developmental psych to go. I think I get the
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: basics of child rearing and the specifics are going to
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: come with finding out what he wants, who he is,
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: what he needs.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the experience becomes like you're a big part of
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: the learning, especially when you go like I mean going
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: from one to two, Matt's gone to three. You've sort
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: of subconsciously learned these things that you don't actually think
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: about them when the second one you're just doing it,
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: you know, so you're's a.
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: Pre baby post baby, Like that's just how it is.
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: And I just don't think that there's any use in
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: trying to envisage what your life is going to look
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: like necessarily, because then you don't reach those expectations, you
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: failed somehow everything blows up. Rather, I just tried to go,
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: I'm open to all experiences as they come, and this
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: is going to be heaps of fun more than anything.
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: And I think something that really pisss me off around
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: the chat around fatherhood more broadly and actually parenting is
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: like everything is super negative at the moment there's just
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: this pendulum swing that had just moved into like the
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: everything is death and destruction and hard. There is a
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: lot of trauma and really important stuff that needed to
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: be aired that wasn't previously. But I think we're at
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: a point now where if I go my kids sleeping
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: for like ten hours, someone goes, oh, you, Like, why do.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: You have to say that?
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: Why is this idea of it'll get bad? How does
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: that benefit me?
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: Just wait? The teenager?
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: I think it never end.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: I think people subconsciously want to prepare you for what
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: could potentially happen. Right, Yeah, but again, everyone's different, Every
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: child is different, every baby is different.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, we are sold.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: This magical thing, which it is, and you go through
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: nine months of waiting, and then the expectation can be
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: sometimes like a bit lonely. After the everyone's sort of
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: looking at mum making sure mum's as they should because
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: she's just gone through this amazing childbirth and whichever way
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: that sort of comes about. But then it's sort of like, Okay,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: I want to make sure everyone's okay. But then sometimes
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: you can feel a bit lonely.
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, do you find that with for sure? I've seen
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: that in clients. I felt it myself, and so what
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: I decided was, I'm going to find my role here
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: really quickly, and I'm going to no matter how big
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: or small it is, depending on the day, I'm going
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: to own this. And so, you know, it was cooking
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: at the start, and I was like, I'm gonna smash this.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: I'm going to get this downpat and it doesn't matter
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: that it's not parenting as it was conceptualized and sold
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: to me, because you know, he just needed boob at
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: the start and sleep pretty much. And so again the
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: expectation around who I need to be and how I
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: need to show up. I just try to loosen the
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: pressure on some of that stuff. And I do think
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: that that period is so prone to loneliness because there
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: has been such a massive shift in your value. I
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: think in some ways you've gone from two to three
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: or three to four to five, and you're trying to
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: find out where your identity fits in this new structure
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: and doing really small things that are probably very important
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: for the unit. Suddenly don't feel that useful or don't
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: feel like you're doing what you should, and you have
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: this constant sense of failure and you isolate from yourself,
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: I think in some ways as well. And I just
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: watched that kind of recede at that time point and
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: kind of shrink because they don't know how to inject
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: themselves into this new world. And so I think it's
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: just a matter of doing a massive reorientation in your
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: head of what value and purpose kind of look like.
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: And when you talk about a new world, I think
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: when you compare our fathers to the current generation of fathers,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: the identity of a dad has changed so much. How
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: do you think it has changed? And how are dad's
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: coping with that change?
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah? I think about this a lot. And we've just
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: published a report out of November or More than a Provider,
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: which really in the name kind of says a lot
• 11:40
  Speaker 4: about where modern day fatherhood is, which is that back
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: in the day, it was provided protective breadwinner, like it
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: was a pretty clear structure. And I think it should
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: be said that, like black and white thinking is very
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: easy to wrap your head around. You know, mom does this,
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: Dad does this. We're now at a point where there
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: is a dual identity, which is something that mothers have
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: been dealing with for a very long time. I'm a parent,
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: I'm a worker, I'm a wife. I'm going to hold
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: all of these identities at the same time and work
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: out where it fits. Dads are now having to do that,
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: and I felt that massively in my head. I felt
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: the room kind of constrict and I was like, wait,
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: there's not enough time and space to do all of this.
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: And so what our report kind of talks about is
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: that there is such beauty in having to suddenly reshape
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: your life around being this vulnerable and nurturing caregiver, which
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: you didn't often receive. Especially in Australia, it's not a
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: common occurrence for dads to be massively soft and loving
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: from the previous generation. That shifts when they become grandparents.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: It's just a.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Unique event, doesn't it ever.
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: But trying to do that while also being in financially
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: tough times where you do need to provide, and you
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: might not be the only provider, but you've got the
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: pressure from society telling you, all right, you're the guy.
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: You need to make sure that you can keep the
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: family running. So I need you for more than bathtime.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: I need you in the mornings because I want to
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: go to gym. Can you drop in at lunch and
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: check in for an hour because I need to go
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: and do a work call. Like it's the balancing act
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: that so many men in previous generations didn't have, and
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: that means that they're it's gone straight up, it's gone
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: from I think I saw some data that it's like
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: we are doing four times more parenting than our fathers
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: and eight times more than our grandfathers, and we're still
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: working as much. And so it's like, that's when you
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: start to see done it all they could have?
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: It's a lie.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: It was a lie.
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: But that's where loneliness creeps in, because it's like, how
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: the hell, Like all all the dads who are going
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: to the races and going to the footy and doing
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: all of this stuff because that was their role. They
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: didn't need to be there to do all of the
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: other stuff. Now suddenly all the time that you were
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: going to spend with mates is restricted because you're at
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: home and the village is way smaller as well. The
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: nuclear family has kind of taken and over, and so
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: our data consistently tells us that dual identity means that
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: the beauty of connection, the desire to value family over
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: you know, financial successes. There they're telling their kids. They
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: love them way more than previous generations. They're doing far
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: more caregiving, and yet they are also feeling massively under
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: the pump to have a good career, to be able to,
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: you know, pay off the mortgage and all of that.
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: So it's coexisting in ways that the women have dealt
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: with for a really long time. But there are no
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: structures and there's no conversation like this is a really
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: unique space where we can talk about that bind that
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: men find themselves in.
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you're the same ash, but I
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: feel like the dads that I know, it's a pretty
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: broad spectrum between There are some dads that still very
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: much see it as a black and white shared responsibility,
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: and I find it hard to connect on a parenting
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: liver with those dads. And then there's others that are doing,
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: like you said in the research, that are trying to
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: take on work plus be a caregiver at home. To
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: the dads that are finding it hard to connect, that
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: are feeling that sense of loneliness, what is your advice
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: to them.
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: I think that the connection piece is often around identity,
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: and the notion around transitions is often the hardest thing
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: for men to cope with, which is that when it
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: comes to men's mental health, you look at kids going
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: from school to university, university to the workplace, marriage, divorce, fatherhood, unemployment, retirement,
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: those types of really key pivotal moments for men are
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: often the hardest for their mental health because they're doing
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: all this thing in this idea of like linear progress
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: and men, we're working towards this thing, and we're going
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: to get to an endpoint at all will be well.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: But what that brings is this massive roller coaster where
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: suddenly the very identity forming values that you had, the
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: idea of where you were going and who you are,
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: get pulled out from underneath you. And so when you
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: look at some of these men who are really struggling
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: to connect during that time, it's because they were holding
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: onto a past self that needs to be reincorporated. It
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: needs to be shifted, and you need to lose some things,
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: and it's very hard for lots of guys to embrace grief,
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: to be honest with you that your past self is
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: no longer here. The idea that you can just go
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: out whenever you want, get on the beer is like
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: I realized when I became a dad, I was like, Okay, yes,
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: I am carving off those previous parts of myself. But
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: this is where that narrative around positivity comes in. What
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: am I about to open? What are those doors that
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: I'm about to open? And we're way too focused on
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: what we lose rather than going Actually staring at my
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: boy for like an hour and a half is way
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: better than lots of other things that I used to do.
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: If there's any dads out there, maybe they have that
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: mentality of like, you know what, I'm going to take
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: on work that with my priority. I'm going to make
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: sure that my family are financially secure and that will
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: be my number one responsibility. What is your argument to
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: that won't necessarily turn you into a good dad?
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: My question is always, is that what you want to do? Like,
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: is that what's been sold to you? Is this something
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: that is just the clearest narrative that you can grab
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: a hold of because it is black and white. Because
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: so many men and you often find my dad's generation
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: or grandparents' generation who are very regretful of the fact
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: that they weren't there, that they weren't present because they
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: got offered this really clear doctrine of dads do this,
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: go off and you're successful because you brought in enough
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: money to keep food on the table. But yet you
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: get later in life and you go, wait a second,
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: I missed all of those landmark moments. So I don't
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: think it's a matter of going to the nth degree
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: and doing everything, because I'm trying to do that currently
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: and it's hurting. I've had to like shift in my
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: mind that I'm not the primary caregiver, you know, and
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: I'm working full time. It's like that you can't do
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: all of these things. And so it is about realizing
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: that day to day you're doing a bit of a dance.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: But asking men who go, all right, I'm just going
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: to be the breadwinner, Like can you find ways to
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: make that eighty percent? And where are you going to
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: find that twenty percent that is going to be connection
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: with your children?
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Because it's like I suppose you had mentioned before
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: that it was mums were doing this right, they were
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: having babies and then they were going back to work
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: and balancing that. They seem to have found a way
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: to do that. Is it because they were They were
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: sort of sold that narrative early on that that's you know,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: that's just how it is. But with you guys, you
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: pick one or the other. I'd hate to get to
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: my fifties and feel like I've missed all the time
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: that I've had with my kids now And honestly, like
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: before having kids, I wouldn't have even thought about that,
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: but now I'm like, fuck yeah, Like I'd hate to
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: wake up one day and go I concentrated. Yes, it
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: was good that everyone was clothes dressed, had a roof
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: over their head. They are things that are attainable, but
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: also with finding a balance that we're here, like, okay,
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I'm not missing things.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if you're doing that, like you said,
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: it's important to have food on the table, to have
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: a roof of your head. But if you're doing that,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: the detriment of having any one on one time with
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: your child, Like a child doesn't give a fuck. They
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: just an expectation for them that they're going to be
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: get fed and sleep.
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: And I will say that it is oft an avoidance
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: because you are the master of your domain at work,
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: and so many men tell me this when they come
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: in clinically. It's like I go off, I'm looking after
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: a team of forty. They fucking bow down to me.
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: And I come home and my wife is like, why
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: didn't you put.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Away this plate?
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's like that is a that's a massive disconnect,
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: and it's a it's a come down of the highest order.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: And so they go, I'm just going to stay at
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: work because I'm respected, Yes, and that requires unpacking, man.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: And that's why like even being able to have that
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: conversation you say, you know, before I had kids, I
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: didn't consider that I miss something, But yet we're now
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: here having this going wait a second, what would I miss?
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: What even would I miss? Because you typically get to
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: your fifties or sixties and go, I've done it, and
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: I miss those things because now I've seen them. But
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: mums talk about and have always talked about what they
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: would miss. They've talked about what the process is, what
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: mothering looks like. And there are plenty of mothers who
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: decide very clearly, in a black and white way, I'm
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: going to be at home and that's and that's fine.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: It's not a very clear, you know, yes or no
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: type thing, but it's that dance that requires open dialogue.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, I suppose like I wouldn't have had
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: a conversation about what I would potentially miss as as
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: a man about with my kids, like my future kids. Right,
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: but now I'm having the conversation. But mums would have
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: probably had that conversation with their friends, right.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: They would have opened up a little bit more about it.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: When I don't feel like I could have opened up
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: with anyone about that, you know, like now I can
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: because obviously we have these conversations, but like, yeah, it's.
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: It's like, what type of dad do you want to be?
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: Like if I ask people that because I try to
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: do that during pregnancy, when yeah, because dads just don't
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: do any work during that time. I'm like, this is
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: your brain is shifting. Things are going to change massively.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: Let's try and have some adaptive evolutionary conversation about who
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: you want to become. And you know, if I was
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: to ask either of you during that time with your
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: first kids, what type of dad do you want to be?
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: Lots of people would say I don't want to be
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: like my own dad, or they would say I want
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: to be fun dad. But they all they're all caricatures,
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: they lack depth. Rows you ask moms what type of
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: mum they want to be fucking hell, you're going to
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: get a real rich answer.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very true.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, loving, nurturing, all these sorts of things, you know, like,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: but yeah, you're right, David, I just want to be fun.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: That is a character, right, You got to do these
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: other things that around that. You can't just be fun
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: all the time, or the whole house would be silly.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Sounds pretty good, but in reality it's not.
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's a Homosimpson effect. It's like, no one
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: needs a two dimensional dad. I think that there's two
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: types of fathers in current culture. One is like the
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: hero and he's put on a pedestal and he's going
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: to save us all. And one is the idiot, you know,
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: and it's like like bands that can't fall off the
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: pedestal because it's a fucking drawing, which says a lot honestly,
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: that like the pinnacle of Australian fatherhood is a drawing.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: Like I think that we are at a point where
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: we really need to show that messiness, which is like
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: you can do the good, bad and ugly, like that's
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: how modern day parenting looks, and don't put them on
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: a pedestal. In the same way that we shouldn't be
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: putting footy players on a pedestal for talking about their
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: mental health because they'll just fall off too. It's too much.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: No one is perfect, and I think when we're talking
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: about dads, it's like, here is that simplicity of like,
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: let's box him in rather than saying he can be
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: really complex and shift day to day in moment to moment.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: When you're talking about this modern day dad, the dads
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: that are finding that dance between work and being hands
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: on at home, what do you see as being one
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: of the biggest issues that they're facing.
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: I think it's around expectation of what culture has told
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: them they should be doing. And so that's when you
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: up with massive relationship blow ups, you know, around mental
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: load and domestic duties because oh, I'm working and I
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: continue to have really open conversations with my wife about
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: this where I'm like, I don't have that much time.
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to work out what I need to do
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: for there not to be resentment building in the house.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: But it's a matter of transparency where I'm saying, you know,
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: she says, you didn't see that thing, you didn't clean
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: that thing, and I go, I kind of need to
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: be attuned to that. Like I've got four different modes
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: in my head that I'm constantly jumping between, and I
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: just need to get better at it, honestly, Like that
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: requires building that muscle because and women have said this forever,
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: it's like he doesn't see the mess, and it's like
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: my eyes work, it's just priorities. It's where my attention
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: is placed. And that's why I think being myopic and
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: being so single minded about work and you know, your
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: children kind of being a distraction like that that causes
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: a disconnect from self because so many guys I end
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: up seeing in their mid forties late forties feel like
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: they had distracted away from this thing that they didn't
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: really understand, being, you know, child rearing, and now they're going,
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: if only I'd been present and willing to embrace that
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: challenge fundamentally, And that's you know, leveraging masculinity in therapy
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: is kind of my game and being like all you
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: do is talk about self optimization. All you're doing is
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: talking about leveling up and resilience building and fucking you know,
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: ice bars. Being a dad is the hardest thing you're
• 24:37
  Speaker 4: going to do. Like, let's go what is that going
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: to look like, how are we going to actually build
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: up that challenge week by week so that you get
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: better at this thing and you're actively being a member
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: of this rather than being afraid.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: So what's what's the silver bullet? What's the bit of
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: advice that you're like, focus on this and it'll make
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: you a better dad. What do you tell your clients?
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: Why tell them to focus on themselves? I think that
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: that you know, so many of them are actually distancing
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: themselves from their own reality because they're like, I've got
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: to look after everyone else, or they go, no, I
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: can't go to gym because I need to make sure
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: that I'm doing this thing. And I'm like, if you
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: actually disconnect from yourself first, that's the greatest disservice you
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: can do to the family. Like it is so easily
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: represented in the fact that the vast majority of referrals
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: are coming to me from wives. That is not a
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: good assessment of current men's health.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: It's funny because I that is a story set asking
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: about if you were struggling with your mental health as
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: a dad, as a parent, why didn't you reach out
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: for help? And the biggest response that we got was
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: I thought I could manage it on my own. To
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: those dads out there, or if partners are listening on
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: behalf of their husband, how do we make more men
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: aware that their struggle is something that they can't do
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: by themselves.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: I think that I thought it was something I could
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: do on my own. Like this notion of self reliance
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: is put onto this top level idea of what it
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: means to be a man, rather than realizing that as
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: social beings, the greatest thing you can do is actually
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: have people around you that you can rely on. We
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: are fundamentally requiring leaning on others in order to succeed,
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: in order to thrive. And again when they say I
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: thought I could do it on my own and that
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: I could crack this, I'm like, how much suffering is
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: required for you and those around you before you realize
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: that you can't do it? Because it always ends up
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: in crisis. Like that's what happens. They're drinking too much,
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: they're not seeing their mates, they're suicidal, whatever it might be,
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: and they go, I don't want to put a burden
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: on my partner, and then the burden is massive later on.
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, even there's been so many times I'm a
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: pretty open book. I'm pretty emotionally aware, but there have
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: been so many occasions where I've not been doing great
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: and Lauris said, hey, are you okay, and I just go, yeah,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: I'm fine. It's so confronting. I think for anyone to say, actually,
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: I'm not doing okay, Like, is there any type of
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: dialogue that you can give people as a tool to
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: open up that conversation, because I think any dad listening
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: to say I'm not doing okay, it's one of the
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: most confronting statements that they can ever say to someone else.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: I think that it depends what we define like okay
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: as because I often tell wise partners mothers to kind
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: of adapt the language based on what he's saying. If
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: he doesn't want to say I'm not okay, then it's
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: like really drill into the one thing that you know
• 27:34
  Speaker 4: he's probably willing to admit is not going according to plan,
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: which is like if you're saying I can feel burnoutcoming,
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: for instance, it's like, rather than these generic statements of
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: like you're crumbling, you're having a breakdown, which often happen
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: later on when sitters hit the fan. Doing that kind
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: of bread crumbing early on and saying I've noticed this thing,
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: Like changes in character are always the greatest tell you know.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: That's what when someone is drinking more, when they're not
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: talking as much, when they're out, when they're working like crazy.
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: I think that trying to really pinpoint certain behaviors so
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: that it doesn't feel like an attack. It's just like,
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: this is the thing that I've noticed, and that is
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: going to be a great conversation starter because he knows
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: and you're not saying you've failed. You're just saying I've
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: noticed that this behavior, Like what do you think about it?
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: Rather than being like this isn't okay, you need to
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: deal with it. You need to go to therapy. Like
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: the amount of times I call my mates and I
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: can hear their wives in the background screaming out who
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: needs to go to therapy? But it is like the
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: greatest thing that men can do is take control of
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: their own shit. And that is that does not mean
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: somehow fixing things on your own that you don't have
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: the tools to fix, like believing that, oh my god,
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: it's Tuesday now. I've been dealing with this for three
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: and a half months, but today I'm going to suddenly
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: get the understanding of how to father and work and
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: do all of this.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: You know, we've always hated instruction manuals, haven't we.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I remember early days for me when we had Oscar,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: our first kid, and my sister said it to me
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: very bluntly, and she was just like when the when
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: the mask come down on an aeroplane, they tell you
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: to fit yours first.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: And I was like, first time i'd heard that.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I've heard a lot more since it's pretty common, but
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: it's stuck with me because it was like, I can't
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: you know, I can't do this on my own.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: I need to help me before I can help you guys.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And April was very much of that belief too, Like
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I was very thankfu. I'm very thankful that she was like, well,
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: you know, not like what do you mean?
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: You got to work on you?
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Which I can imagine there are probably some relationships out
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: there with that the cases it's like, hey, I need
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: to work on me.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: It was like, working on me doesn't mean like going
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: and playing golf three hours a week. Yeah, And I
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: think that that that idea, like I'm a therapist and
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: a dad I've spent my life thinking and working on
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: this stuff, and I need therapy.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: The other thing that's really important is I do not
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: believe that everyone needs therapy. I don't think that everyone
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: needs it all the time. I try and get people
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: in and out as quickly as I can.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: With a generation of self help.
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: Oh man, one hundred percent. It's like, you actually probably
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: need a run and hang out with your friends without alcohol,
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: and you need to take your kid with your best
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: maid and his kid and like spend some quality time together.
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: That's why when someone asked early on it's like, do
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: you want to go to this dad's group, I was like, no,
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: I need to see my friends, Like I actually don't
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: need I don't need strangers right now. And being able
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: to tap into my needs. I think that's something that
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: dads really struggle with. It's something that I struggle with,
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: is like what to actually need right now because I'm
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: so focused on what my wife or or the baby
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: needs that I actually completely disconnect from what's happening internally.
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: And that has massive flow and effects as well, because
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: then you get to the point where you're crumbling and
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: you no one can support you.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember I got so angry. I was just
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: angry with my situation that I couldn't fix my own situation,
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: mainly because I was worried about how that would impact VAM.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: I was so angry at me. I was angry at April.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: I was angry at my kid that was like six
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: months old and not even I was so angry. And
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: then it was like I went from being angry to
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: being like, well, I could just not be here, yeah,
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: you know, And then I kind of wish that I
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: had earlier on been given the advice that you've got
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: to put your mask on first. Like ever since I
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: had that mentality, everyone else around me is everyone's happier.
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: I might not have given birth, I might not have
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: been able to breastfeed and stuff like that, but what.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: I can do is help me to help everyone else.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: And I think it took me a while to learn that,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: mainly because it was like just the get on with
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: it mentality, right, people like get on with it. And
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I'm not surprised with the with the response we got
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: where it's like I could do it myself. Bullshit, Right,
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: if the therapist needs therapy, you can't do it yourself, right,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: You might be that sound that you think you can
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: do it yourself, but everyone else can see that you can't.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: But you talk about that idea of like maybe it's
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: better that I'm I'm not here, and I think that,
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: you know, it's so brave to talk about this ash,
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: but it is also like the most common experience we
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: know in like the men's health field, is that being
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: a burden is the greatest risk factor for suicidality amongst
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: guys because they've got this idea that like, I'm not
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: of use, I don't have utility, I'm not adding something,
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: I'm not building, I'm not connecting, there's no point in
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: me being here. And something that I do clinically that
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: I think hopefully undermines that idea is like, especially with
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: a new dad who's going through these experiences, I sit
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: down with him and he says, they're not going to
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: miss me, like I'm just I'm just a drain.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: That's how exactly how I felt. Yeah, I'm just a drain.
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: And I say, okay, let's go through just this morning
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: what you did, and they go, well, I drove the
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: kids to daycare, and then I came home and I
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: prepped dinner, and then I talked to my wife about
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: what we're going to do for schools in the area,
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: and then I, you know, when and planned how you
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: start to list all this stuff out and you see
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: this piece of paper in front of you and I go,
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: this is three hours. How do you think anyone is
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: better off without having you do that?
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: And it's like, you need to get into the nitty
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: gritty of what not being here actually means, what loss
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: actually looks like. To be able to conceptualize that your
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: sense of failure is really not true, your idea that
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: you're not enough is not true, and to start to
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: build back that self belief really that you are useful,
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: and to get your mood to kind of follow in
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: any ways, for a.
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: Lot of peop people out there, when they think about
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: putting on the mask for themselves are probably like I know,
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: I do, I would go straight to like, well, therapy
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: is what self help looks like? What are the steps
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: before that? I know you mentioned about friends. I found
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: a situation which we spoke about it in a previous
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: episode where I'd kind of lost friends quicker than I
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: was making new ones who are in the same situation
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: as me. What would you recommend to someone who might
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: be in a similar scenario, what are the smallest steps
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: they can do to prioritize their own mental health.
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it is so important because the vast majority of men,
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: as I said, don't need therapy or aren't going to
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: lean into it as the first port of call, nor
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: should they. It's expensive and it's not there for like
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: every day functioning.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: I think that firstly, we always like disregard, and our
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: report showed it's like exercise, Like sleep deprivation is massive,
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: there's no doubt about that, and there's some amount of
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: it that cannot be avoided for sure. But trying to
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: focus on your body and like presence and being able
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: to actually have sense of strength and independence and whatever
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: in your body is going to flow on to your
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: mental health. But what you're talking about there is like
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: where friends are kind of falling away. I think that
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: what I so often see in guys is this lack
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: of willingness to say, hey man, I need you, I
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: love you, I need to talk. And so there is
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: this silent atrophy that kind of happens over time where
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: if you don't water the plant, it does, and women
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: water that plant all the time, Like there is no
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: deal when it comes to deprioritizing friendship, but for some
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: reason with guys, because it's not a marker of success fundamentally,
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: it's not as a man, how many mates you have
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: after high school. It just doesn't become until you get
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: to your eulogy and there are how many people are
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: there who loved you and knew you. There is a
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: massive period of time throughout your entire met or years
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: where friendship is not spoken about amongst guys as something
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: to value when we know, like the Harved longitudinal study
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: shows over and over again, the guys who are still
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: alive quality of friendships that's it smoking exercise. Like none
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: of this stuff is as strong as friendship is. And
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: we just do not pay attention. We just don't. And
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: also people don't tell us, Like I spoke to a
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: mum the other day about this and she messaged her
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: son after and said, awesome job with your friends, Like
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: it's incredible. You're nineteen and you've got these three best
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: mates who you like pay attention to and you put
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: time and effort into. We need to like pump that
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: up a bit more because it is life saving. And
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: I think that you know, the mothers and wives who
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: are listening have a role to playing this as well,
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: which is like, again, it's not just crisis like okay,
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: go and have a boy's weekend. It's like, let them
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: build the muscle to own a part of the social calendar.
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: This is why when men get divorced, they fall apart
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: because they don't as a social scaffolding at all. They're like, oh,
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: I don't know how to call anybody.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: But I think a lot of I know a lot
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: of men who are you know, around my age who
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: are like, oh, I'll see my mate, I'll go to
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: the pub and we'll have six beers, and like that's
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: obviously not going to help the situation at all. So
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: what are the other things that they can be doing.
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: This is like the most common thing that guys, especially
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: when they're going sober, that they come into therapy and
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: they're like, so I can't see my friends anymore, And
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: I'm like, have you heard of rock climbing? Like anything?
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: Like I have to start listing activities.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: Suggestions.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: I feel that Bungee Young, I don't know, like there's
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: so many things I.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Feel that, but for walk, I feel like going through
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: those you know, twenty twenties year, early thirds, before you
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: have kids.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: So much of my identity was just drinking, and I.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Think like when when I made the decision to have
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: a break, you know, the knock on effect was obviously
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: the benefit that was with my core family, right, but
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: then as well, it was like what do I do
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: with my friends? Like thankfully I have Matt that this
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: is like therapy, that this is our job as well,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: which is which is one thing, but those friends that
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: live close to me, it was like, okay, well what
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: do we do now?
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: And it was like, yeah, so like you know, I,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Picked up pickleball with the mate, just so casually, just
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: because it was like, all right, well, what's something we
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: can do that's not relying around drink drinking?
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: And you're right, You're like you just have you heard
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: of this?
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: You heard of that, you heard of that, And it's
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: like you kind of think that you can only do
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: those things if you're wrapped up in the world of alcohol,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: because it goes hand in hand, which would you know, it's.
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: Just or in the invers it then gets flipped into
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: this like oh cute romance. I'm like I hate that
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: as well and can't they just play friezee together and
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: you know.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, why is sport so important? And why why is
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: it so beneficial?
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: Sport is essential? From this, like shoulder to shoulder, this
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: idea of like sitting side by side with someone watching
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: sport or playing, you know, being busy with your hands.
• 39:08
  Speaker 4: I have always within therapy as well with young guys.
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: I had a ping pong table at a pool table.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: I've played you know, cod with them before. This idea
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: that we should sit across from one another.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: For the moments. That's cool of Judy, So.
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: It's a shooting gat but this idea that we should
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: just like suddenly, we've gone through thirty plus years of
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: our lives where eye to eye contact with other men
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: is a scary, dangerous thing, and now let's sit across
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: from each other and have a deeper, meaningful conversation. This
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: is where like blowing up the expectations of what vulnerability
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: looks like, it doesn't need to look the same for everybody.
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: There are some men who love this, there are plenty
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: who have been terrified of it. They're not socialized into
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: this world and it's a weird conversation. And so playing
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: pool with them, I suddenly get crazy information, you know,
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: coming out of them because their hands and it's like
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: men sheds. This is a perfect example. It's like, oh
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: my hands are busy, I'm doing something, and now I
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: can be free to not be afraid.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Like part of obviously I mentioned that I get to
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: come here and vent every week, and we do that,
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: but like part of the journey that I'm on was, Okay,
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: what do I do at home now? Like I'm you know,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: I'm a parent at home, but is that my whole
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: identity now? And like I'm going to give my race
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: leag a shout out here that I managed to fall
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: into as an online racing But I find that once
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: a week we catch up and all of a sudden,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: all nine or ten a verse are just getting the
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: shit off our chest.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: While it's a front, it's always a front. This is
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: the thing.
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: Yeah, right, And it's funny because we're in different countries,
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: different states or whatever, but where all of a sudden,
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: we're having conversations about what's happening with you, what's happening
• 40:53
  Speaker 5: with you, what's happening with your family, Oh my kid
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: just walked in, And all of a sudden, there's this
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: conversation happening, but you.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Do need an instigator.
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: I do find that if you get all of the guys,
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: like someone has to be the banter breaker, yeah, you know,
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: because and I'm off in the guy and then I
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: get kicked out of WhatsApp group. But I think there's
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: something to be said for like if someone can show
• 41:15
  Speaker 4: that it's okay and it's possible to just share something,
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: then you get this reciprocal of nature and it happens,
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: you know, And that's kind of the best thing about
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: sporting teams, which community, elite whatever. It's this sense of
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: camaraderie and togetherness which is like, you know, we have
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: each other's backs, and you know, getting to the point
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: where that means more than just in a scrum. It's
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: like who is this person? And I think like that's
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: where we're coming to when it comes to men's health
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: more broadly, is understanding that this is not just a
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: physical manifestation. We have to know who we are and
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: where we're going as men, you know, psychologically, socially, emotionally.
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: And I just hope that we're going to get to
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: the point where men can sit around with one another
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: and have we don't need like deeper meaningfuls. This idea
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: of like mental health conversations is like in the dark
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: in the corner, it's like just how I do it?
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: But you're bouncing.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: This is the thing.
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: It's like me, Actually, they're going to say something real,
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: full on and dark. You know, we just spoke about
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: suicide and now we're here. It's like, you don't need
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: to stay and sit in this thing forever. And so
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: for the wives listening, the idea that there is this
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: emotional communication that must have this heaviness for like forty
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: five minutes and we have to unpack this thing. It's like,
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: watch how he interacts with his mates. He's actually going
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: to talk about the dark thing for two minutes and
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: maybe come back to it half an hour later. Because
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: it's too hard. It's too hard, and it's not wrong
• 42:42
  Speaker 4: to do that. And I think we often we give
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: it a judgment around the fact that, you know, he's
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: not talking enough, he's not explaining himself, he doesn't talk
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: about his real feelings. Well, maybe he can say it
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: in five words. I obviously can't, but other people believe them.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I find like some people, like I've got some
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: mates that can be pretty closed off. But some times
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: they'll just say something that makes it would make sense
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: to the closest person to them that actually is getting
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: it off their chests. And it's like you've given them
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: the space to do that. You mentioned that someone's going
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: to speak up. Or we had Aaron woods On he's
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: spent his whole life playing sport, and they're in change
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: rooms with the boys and they're talking. They're talking about
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: all sorts of things except for maybe how they're all
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: doing it.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: Remember, I don't know if you do.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Remember he was going through a lot of miscarriage but
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: didn't want to talk about it because he felt the
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: taboo around it.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: But all it took was for a slip off of.
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Him to talk about it in the change room that
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, all the people around him were
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: actually dealing with similar things. And it's like, okay, well
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: it sort of took that to get.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: It out of everyone, you know.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: And that's that's like the phenomenon consistently found across all
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: of the work I've done, which is this idea of
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: the perception gap, which is that we think that the
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: way in which we view the world is not okay
• 43:58
  Speaker 4: to be shown because men don't actually think like that,
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: they don't respond like that. And the locker room is
• 44:03
  Speaker 4: the perfect example, which is like, actually, when a misogynistic
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: joke is said and everyone laughs and no one says anything.
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: If I went around one by one and ask them separately,
• 44:13
  Speaker 4: what do you reckon about that, the vast majority of
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: them are going to say I didn't really like it,
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: but I thought that he found it funny. This is like,
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: the fear of ostracism is the greatest, the greatest behavioral
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: experiment that men are going through, which is like, I'm
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: not going to say anything because I don't want to
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: rock the boat because I might actually be alone, and
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: you know, without the mates, I.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: Need talking about being alone for any dads that might
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: be listening. And I know I felt a little bit
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: inadequate about the fact that that transition into fatherhood was
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: a transition that made me feel lonely. What are some
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: of the elements of being a dad that contribute to
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: feeling lonely?
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: As we spoke about identity, transformation is massive, so you
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: actually become lonely because you're isolating from your yourself. You're
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: becoming a new person and your priority shift and trying
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: to reckon with that is a really difficult thing. And so,
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: as I said, there's grief and loss, and that means
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: that you become lonely internally in many ways. There's also
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: the fact that the first few months postpartum are just
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: hectic and they are isolating naturally because you need to
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: be at home. You baby, can't be in the sun,
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: like there's just certain practicalities. And there's also like there's
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: only so many visitors you can have because you're exhausted.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: And so that's a fundamental thing, which means the phone
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: is a very useful mechanism to actually and it often
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: doesn't require a lot, whether it's a text or a
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: call or something, to just have an anchor with someone
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: you know. And then I think that what happens after
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: that is that idea of trying to look after everyone
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: else but yourself, and so slowly but surely that you know,
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: weekly pub night or the footy game you're going to
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: do just falls off rather than going, actually, this is
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: the thing that I'm going to put first, rather than
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: an extra hour of work, I'm going to tell my
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: wife can I do this thing? And what can we
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: do to kind of make that dance happen. It's typically
• 46:14
  Speaker 4: about priorities, but it really requires during pregnancy, is kind
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: of said, to realize that things are about to change
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: and to go, how do I want to grow with this?
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: How do I want to adapt? And am I willing
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: to admit that I might not actually have the same
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: level of connection for the next couple of months and
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: that that's okay? Because loneliness is an internal experience. It's
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: something that you decide. You know, you can be surrounded
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: by people and feel lonely, and so I think it's
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: a matter of realizing that where is importance placed, you know,
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: what matters to you, and how are you going to
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: go about actually achieving that, rather than going, oh, I
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: have this need, but there's no time for that, you know?
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Do you think so quickly just on that?
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Do you think that preempting that you're going to have
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: a period there where you obviously got it, like you said,
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: you can't leave the house. Do you think it's worth
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: preempting that? Okay, well, I'm going to have a period
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: here where everything's going to change and I'm going to
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: feel lonely, but it's just temporary because of the situation.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: There's definitely that but there's also reframing the idea of
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: it has to be lonely, Like I went and did
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: so many walks like pram walks, and the amount of
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: conversations that I had with strange, like everyone suddenly wants
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: to have a chat with you, and I think that
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: that is like it there was a beautiful like community
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: building exercise that I really didn't expect. And so if
• 47:32
  Speaker 4: I look back now, I'm like, Okay, I didn't see
• 47:34
  Speaker 4: my mates as much, but suddenly h on the end
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: of the street wanted to have a discussion every second day.
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: And it's like I started to build something else. So
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: again it's not going, oh things must look the same. Yeah,
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: why don't I have what I had? It's going actually,
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: maybe something else is going to appear in being open
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: to that as well, and.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: Also as well, like as like letting go of what
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: you had before kids doesn't mean you're gonna let it
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: go forever, right, you can pick that back up again.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: But yeah, obviously you start to build different.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: Relationships, like you said, on walks and all sorts of things,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: because you're trying to essentially you're having a family. That's
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: what having a family is, right, You've got to concentrate
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: on that and yourself, and you might have to just
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: briefly put those friendships like I know you mentioned before,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: like those friends that weren't having kids were in different
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: stages of live and it's like you might have to
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: just park that for now.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: And that's the thing. It's a dance.
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: Some things get turned down, some things get turned up
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: depending on the day. And it's you know, the idea
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: that I've done the same thing that I did yesterday
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: to help my wife, and today it wasn't enough, and
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: yesterday it was. And you know, yesterday I said gug ga,
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: gugga and he loved that sound, and today he's fucking
• 48:39
  Speaker 4: crying and I'm like, I can't go, But what about yesterday?
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: Like that rigidity is the breakup for us. We have
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: this idea, it's like, why is this not moving in
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: this direction rather than saying every day, every hour might
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: just look a little different and having that flexibility is
• 48:57
  Speaker 4: the way to survive. Really, Doctor Matt I.
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: Wanted to deliver that. We wanted to see that for
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: a long time. We had a huge response to the
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: call out for people to submit questions for this episode. Unfortunately,
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: we cannot answer every single one, but these are some
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: of the most common ones. And without question, the most
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: common response that we had from mums about their partners
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: was the fact that an i'lfrasers as one of the
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: questions came through, I have an introverted husband. He is
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: struggling and he needs to talk, but he won't any suggestions,
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: And that is ninety percent of the submissions that we
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: had from dotors. With the fact that how do I
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: get my husband to open up?
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: There's an immediate instinct there which is like, I have
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: to crack him open, you know, I have to find
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: a way to get this thing out. It always has
• 49:47
  Speaker 4: to and this is the same thing with therapy. It
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: has to come from him. He has to have a
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: motivation to want to share. And so you being like
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: and then and what and what's happened? Like that is
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: the worst way to get anyone to share what's happening
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: with them. And so I do think that it's a
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: matter of like trying to find the language that doesn't
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: pathologize and suggests that there is something wrong that you're
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: really worried about, because that leans into the burden idea
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: that you know something you failed somehow and instead getting
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: to the point of saying, I actually am feeling the
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: ripple effect of what's happening here. I think that the
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: friendships that you really cared about previously have kind of
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: fallen away. I've noticed it, and we're feeling it because
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: you're not yourself. You're not yourself, and we want you
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: to be able to feel like you can be the
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: best version of yourself. It's like strength based. It's the
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: idea of like, I want to help you get to
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: where you want to be, and that means that he
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: can take ownership rather than you're trying to shake distress
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: out of him, you know. And so I do think
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: that changing the orientation of the conversation of like, why
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: doesn't he share with me to firstly listening to some
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: of those cues, because everyone is sharing something, even if
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: it's hidden, it comes out in little ways. You need
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: to go looking for it.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: Do you think I know that? When Laura will be
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: like trying to approach a conversation, I would say, I'm fine,
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: do you look at certain silos of their life? Well,
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: you can do digging to be like, well, how's it
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: going with work? As something happened there, how's it going
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: with those friendships, are there silos that you can say
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: to people like, this is where you can do your digging?
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and what are they?
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: I think that, as I said, generic statements are not
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: useful in any way because then it is like, oh,
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: everything is fucked, Like that's not a good way to start. So, yeah,
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: talking about friends, work, exercise, diet, you know, alcohol, use,
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: like all of those big pillars I think are really
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: good entry points. But it is a matter of also
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: realizing that you might not be the best person to
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: have that conversation. In the same way that mums are
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: always like how do I talk to my boy about
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: this thing? I'm often like it might be an uncle,
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: it might be the football coach, it might be the
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: idea that you hold that as his wife, and you
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: need to be the one to get this out of him.
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: I don't think that's too much pressure for you as well.
• 52:11
  Speaker 4: And so I do think that trying to talk about
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: your relationship on the whole, like the amount of men
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: who go into couple's therapy and start to do the
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: work there because it's not about them, you know, It's like,
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: maybe there's a way that you can talk about yourself
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: and the impact that this is having on you and
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: how you're going with things, and try and actually have
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: a dialogue rather than an interrogation. It's also the idea
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: that I know he's struggling, but he doesn't is a
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: super disempowering entry point to a conversation. How would you
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: change that center?
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: So if my wife came to me and said, I
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: can see you're struggling, and it sort of takes the
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: power out of me. There, what phrasing can my wife
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: use that can not essentially accus it t Yeah.
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: Well my wife does it a lot and she's a therapist,
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: so thank god. But the idea of like what can
• 53:06
  Speaker 4: we work on to make life a bit easier for you?
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: Like that's immediately going to what are we going to build?
• 53:11
  Speaker 4: Building is great, growth is great, Strength is great, rather
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: than saying this is fucked, you're broken, we need to
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: fix this together. Instead going what can we make you
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: know a bit easier in your day to day? What
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: can we take out? Do you need to go and
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: see your mates? And what do you think that will
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: do for the next week. It's like, try and have
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: the conversation, especially try and have the conversation pre crisis.
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: Try and have the conversation not before bed when he's exhausted.
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: It's like, we don't pick our times with this stuff. Either,
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: we don't pick our time or our language. And I
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: think I think this growth oriented, strength based conversation that
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: is also like really focused on action. He's like, what
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: are we going to do? What are we going to
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: do about this? Rather than let's sit and have a
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: discussion about what friendship means to you. It's like, who
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: is your best mate? Get him on the fucking phone
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: the end, Like that's what I do in therapy.
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: I'm like, call him now, you know.
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: My wife says to me and breaks it down a
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: little bit where she'll be like, well, instead of making
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: it how am I.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Feeling in general, it would just be about that day.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: And sometimes I find that actually really helps me. Like
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: I was having a shit weekend.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know what it was, just my something in
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: my brain wasn't working properly, and I think she knew
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: that the whole weekend. It sort of got to yesterday,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: long weekend and she was just like, hey, you feeling today,
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: Like she had noticed it but hadn't mentioned it, but
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: then just wanted to know how I was feeling today
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: and I was like, I actually feel really shit.
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: And it's just slept in. It's not this let's go and.
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: Have a chat, sit down conversation.
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: Up being a boy. It's like and your parents sit
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: you down. It's like, no, you want to like be
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: driving on the way to football and she's looking at
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: you through the rear view mirror and it's just a
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: throwaway comment like that's how this stuff should kind of be,
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: because then you don't feel this burden. That's what I
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: get it together.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: I was just walking out of the kitchen after cleaning
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: the kitchen and she was like, hey, are you feeling today?
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I was like, actually feeling shit.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure what it is, but it gave me
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: a space to just say, I don't know what it is,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: but just so you.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: Know, I'm not feeling one d P. Yeah, we have
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: some more questions. Sorry, as I tracked that guys, as
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: I do quite often.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: Are there some dads that like the idea of being
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: a dad but not actually being one?
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: Sadly, yes, but that comes down to everything we've been
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: talking about, which is that the realities of being a
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: dad are complex, are potentially difficult, are beautiful, and I'm
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: not spoken about. And so when it's like, oh, I
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: just I want kids, I can't wait whenever I you know,
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: early on, I remember being in my twenties and having
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: chats with people like, oh, I just want to be
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: a dad.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: I want to have a fan.
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: I thought I wanted six kids, and I'm like, I'm like,
• 55:39
  Speaker 4: what does that look like? Way early days, man, I'm like,
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: what does that look like? You know, like, what is
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: being a dad? And they're like, oh, I just want
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: to play footy with him? And I think actually getting
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: into that nitty gritty of like what this means, because
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: then that that means when you get to actual fatherhood,
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: you're not like, oh shit, this isn't what I was promised. Yeah,
• 56:00
  Speaker 4: in fact, I'm now like changing nappy's' going to fucking masses,
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: let's go.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: This is great.
• 56:05
  Speaker 4: And so it's having different task orientation in many ways
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: where success is not tied to oh I'm going to
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: be the fun dad or I'm going to play footy
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: with him, or it's in fact in the day to
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: day manusha, which can seem really boring if it hasn't
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: been spoken about it at all. But I really hope
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: that dads can get to the point where they go, oh,
• 56:27
  Speaker 4: it's not this pipe dream that is really disconnected from
• 56:30
  Speaker 4: my reality. It's it's in that day to day grind
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: that I want to lean into.
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: I'm going to generalize here massively, but I think I
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: see it a lot where dads will have a short temper,
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: they get frustrated, they raise their voice, and then they
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: turn to mom and go, well, I'm not doing a
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: fucking good job. You do it, You're better at it.
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: How can mums encourage those dads to still, you know,
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: be in there, clocking up the hours and trying when
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: they want to just back out from being a parent?
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Like that's fundamental emotion regulation, which is like how
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: do you deal with distress? How do you deal with
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: things not going your way? And realizing that you you
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: clocking off and just saying mom, this is your responsibility.
• 57:14
  Speaker 4: It's like that is the vast majority of parenting and
• 57:17
  Speaker 4: just throwing up your hands and saying this isn't for me.
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: I've tried. Like, adaptation is everything. Find a way to
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: crack the code, you know, again, like leaning into the strength.
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: It's like, Okay, some days it's just not going to
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: happen because you're exhausted and you know everything's tough, and
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: some days your partner will have more in the tank
• 57:35
  Speaker 4: and vice versa. But saying like this isn't my game.
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: You know, we were talking before around this idea of
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: supportive partners. I hate that term, the idea of like
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: present dads, all of these hands hands on dads, exactly
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: all of these terms walked into that, that idea of like, oh, no,
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: dating is cute, but the others are like there's a
• 58:02
  Speaker 4: fundamental underlying expectation there which is like, oh, you are
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: breaking the norm. Congratulations for putting them in the urgo
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: baby and taking them for a walk. Everyone should line
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: up and bow down to you.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: I hate that.
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: I hate that because it's so undermining, and I don't
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: know why dads aren't like railing against this idea that
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: like bravo for doing the simplest things. And that's the
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: same thing when it comes to when you're having a
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: shit day, rising above that and going I can do
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: more for my kids right now than I can probably
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: do for myself, you know, is a beautiful thing.
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: The person who throws their hands up right doesn't know
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: the feeling of what it's like to keep at it
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: and get it. Oh yeah, and when you get I
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: just got goosebumps thinking about that. You keep at that,
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: and I was I put my hand up. I was
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: one of the first to be like, this is all
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: too fucking hard. I'm not good enough, right, I mean,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: that was my own problem I had to deal with.
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: But since that, and especially now as my kids are now,
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Oscar's coming to the footy with me and doing these things,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: which was the which is the pipe dreamings that we
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: spoke about. But I put the work in to get there, right,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: And it's so much sweeter now that the work is
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: being put in to get to these little things. So
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: it's like what I might have gone, you need to
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: do this bag because I can't do it.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: I'm like, fuck it, I can do this too, right.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: And I used to be so hard on myself and
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: still am, but I'm actually benefiting from that now where
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: it's like, it's so much sweeter when you don't throw
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: your hands up.
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah. It went to throw on a sport analogy
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: if I may, why not the goal is and it
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: doesn't happen all the time, and sometimes this is never
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: going to happen. But there's nights where you do get
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: through dinner, bath, put them to bed, give them a hug,
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: they say I love you. You get that little bit
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: of affection, no blow ups, no tantrums. Oh my fucking god.
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: Wow, Like it's mastery.
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: It's like that is the fuel that is. There is
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: no greater feeling as a parent. I find when I
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: have those moments, and that's what I'm chasing.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: When they call Dad instead of Mum that one time.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: Ah fucking yeah, I earned that, Yeah, exactly, exactly.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: So anyway, sorry, I've heard that men can get PPD.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: Is it true? And if so, other signs the same
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: for mum as they are for dad.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: Yes, many men can get PPD. We've spoken about that loneliness,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: that isolation, that disconnection. You know. I think this idea
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: that it's going to be his bedridden, is on the couch,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: is sad and hopeless and not willing to talk is
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: you know, that's a subgroup. But currently estimations are about
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: like one in ten dads go through this. I think
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: that's a massive underestimation because we're not looking for the
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: right things. Male depression looks like often risk taking, irritability, violence,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: drug taking, you know, anger like things that are condoned
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: as like male specific behaviors. Its external rather than internal.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 4: You've got all these internal feelings and you push them
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: down as much as you can, and then they explode
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: and avoidance, you know, just like I'm out. I can't
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 4: do this, it's too much. Just constant overwhelm, I think,
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 4: is something that happens a lot. So the onset why
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: it happens, how it happens can look really different for
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: lots of dads, but it often is tied to that
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: shift in identity and that grief, which is like things
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: have shifted underneath me. I was not aware that this
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: was going to happen, and now I have to say
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: goodbye suddenly to all of these parts of myself that
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: I loved, and I don't know what I'm walking into,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: and so immediately that becomes scary and I kind of
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: hate it. And so that transition is going to be
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 4: depressing for many rather than going as I said, Yes,
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: parts of myself have you know, been set to sea,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: but so many doors are going to be open now,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: and like seeing that opportunity and having these conversations about
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 4: who I'm going to be, what type of dad? I'm
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: going to be how I'm going to show up, what
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: my kid means to me, how I'm going to you know,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: take part in day to day activities. All of that
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: is purpose building and is defensive against depression.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Husband has OCD and having kids exacerbated his thoughts on
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: bad things happening to us.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Any tips to manage.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: Like therapy is a go for that, because that's you know,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: our bread and butter, and we deal with that really well.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: OCD is something that psychology has mastered. I think, out
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: of many different things, we've gotten that down pat and
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: it's a matter of challenging those thoughts and actually leaning
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 4: into pretty you know, complex behaviors that it's really a
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: matter of like doing a behavioral experiment and going, okay,
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 4: you think that this thing is going to happen night.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: A client once who who was afraid of holding knives
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: because he thought he was going to stab his mother,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 4: and it turned out that it's because he loved his
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: mum and he lost his dad early on, and it's
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 4: like this fear of if my mum is gone, I'll
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 4: have nobody, and so your brain starts to play tricks
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: on you. And so really it's a matter, and what
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: all we had to do is like get him holding knives.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: You know, therapy is filled of.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: Like exposure therapy.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 4: Precisely, this is often often the way.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: This one hits a little close to home for Ash.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: But this mum has written in and said that her
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: husband would have between four to six beeers every night
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: in addition to smoking weed. She wants to bring up
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: that being an issue with him, but as afraid of
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 3: the conflict that will arise if she brings it up.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 4: This is really tough, it really is, and it's something
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: happening in households across the country. I'm interested Ash, if
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: your partner spoke to you about this where it had
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 4: to be like a self realization that this is getting
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 4: out of control.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: For me, I've been pretty aware for a long time
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: that I have had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: I can I mean April had brought it up with
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: me in.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: The past and which I was quite defensive.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: I think it comes down to you've got to realize
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: it yourself.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: I think what made you realize, do you remember.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: Was a fat slob? That's how I felt about myself.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: I was a fat slob and I was so.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: That can lead to more fat slobbery.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: It can it also, I think at the time I
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: put it down to that I wanted to have a break.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: We had a guest on a long time ago, Ben
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: from ben Zara, who was ten years sober. He's ten
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: years sober now, but he said something that didn't go
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: away with me. It stuck with me for so long.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: He said to me he woke up and the party
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: was over.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: That just sat with me for so long.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: And I knew times when my drinking was impacting my
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: family and I would cut back, I would find other
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: avenues to keep it away from them. I would start
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: to isolate, I'd start to hide it, and I was
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: having I was ticking all these boxes that I was like,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: this can't be healthy, right. And I think one day
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: that message from Ben came to the forefront and it.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: Was like is the party over? Ash?
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: And I think once I had started to to retract
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: from alcohol and see the benefits that it was actually
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: giving me and doing for my family, that it was
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: a byproduct of that, how healthy it's become. But I
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: could see that April was similar to this person where
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: it was she didn't want to say something because it
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: was kind of like didn't want to feel like the
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: nagging wife behind it all, and also didn't want to
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: feel like it was going to cause conflict because it
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: would have Yeah, because it wasn't my idea, and I
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: can happily admit that.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 3: So how do we speed roump this self reflections? There's
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: so many moms out there who were like, I pray
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: that my partner will have that realization that the party
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: is over.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 4: It's super hard to do. I think that realizing the
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 4: impacts and really getting into the fine details of the
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: impacts of his drinking and being like because I often
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 4: think that they don't think that you know, you know
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: what's happening the next day, and like and being able
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 4: to say, here is a list of all the things
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 4: that I have noticed that happened the day after you've
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: been drinking that has an effect on me and our daughter,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 4: for instance, here are all of these things, and understanding
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: that the drink is actually typically not the problem. It's
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: the vehicle and what is underlying that, which is often
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: a sense of failure. I need to get out of here,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: I need to avoid, I need to distract. I don't
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: feel like I'm good enough whatever those things are That
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: is what needs to be dealt with, you know. Finally,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: mine was escape.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: I wanted to escape the situation that I was in,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: and that was I found that I thought this is
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: escaping it, but in fact it wasn't. It was suppressing it,
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: and then the people around me were having to deal
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: with me being a dick about it.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 4: Sure, but having a discussion around escape, I think is
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: a way more fruitful exercise for sure, like what are
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 4: we running away from? And being like, as a wife,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 4: I want to get the fuck out of here often,
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 4: but I can't sometimes, and so it's like, how do
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 4: we and having that reciprocal discussion about the fact that
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: this is tough. We're both finding it tough in different ways,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: We're both coping in different ways, and that is having
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 4: an effect on the unit. So how are we going
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: to find a way through this? And being like you
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: need to go cold turkey now is never going to
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: be a a good mechanism. So working with him, you know,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: creating that sense of unity. We're up against this thing,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: We're going to work together to try and solve it. Again,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: it's action oriented, its growth mindset. It's not like you're
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: deficient and broken and I think that's the way forward.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: We have taken up a lot of your time. Yeah, Zach,
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: sorry about it, so sorry, but we want to say
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: thank you so much for jumping on the episode. It
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 3: is the first time that I've spoken to a clinical
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: psychologist and I'm like, I want more of this.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much, and of course thank you
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: to November for making this happen. Of course, so just
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: tell us a little bit more about this. We will
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: leave links in the show notes all about this. It
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: is the more than a provider, yep.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: It's a new report on Fatherhood, Australian Fathers on Health,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: Identity and Experiences of Parenthood and it's really just all
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 4: of the stuff we've been speaking about today, that really
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: complex world that dads are finding themselves in now new
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: dad's old systems. Really we need new systems. We need
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 4: to be fighting for what paternity leave looks like, routine
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 4: mental health checks, dad groups like all of these this
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: infrastructure to support us and also be having the conversations
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: behind the scenes around what does it mean to be
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: a dad today and not just trying to inherit things
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 4: from previous generations but building something new for us.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 3: So many dads are going to benefit from the work
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: that you were doing, Zach, So thank you so much.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 3: We really appreciate it.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks guys, Thinks sank Ash.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: Do you remember when we said that we would never
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: talk about giving advice? Do we say that? Is that
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: we say? Is that what we say?
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: We say it every week?
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: I don't think we ever said that.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: Actually, only two hundred and thirty something times fair.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: Actually, do you know how I blame for this the
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: listeners because we asked them, We said, do you do
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: you want experts?
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: And they said no, and then they said yeah.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: It was like my mum saying, do you want to
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: beef Wellington? And I was like ugh, and then she
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: serves it and I was like, give me.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: More, give me more of that sweet sweet stuff.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: But it's great to have someone like zack On. But
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: it's so great to have someone like zach On because
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 3: I know that there are so many parents out there
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: who are going to benefit from the information that he's
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: given us.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: And it is Men's Health Week, so checking on yourself,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: checking on the other men around you, and of course
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: the dads, and visit November dot com for tools, resources
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: and support.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 3: They are such a great charity so huge thanks to
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: them for making this set possible and.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: If you have enjoyed this at please leave a review,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: subscribe if you will, or you can join us on
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: socials at two Doting Dad's Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, or
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: you can email us at hello at two Doting dads
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: dot com.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: Just a little note that this episode, now all the
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: guest episodes, are available in long form video format on YouTube,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: but if you are going to watch it there, make
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: sure you still listen as well.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: You had me at long form. Let's get out of Here.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: Let's Get out of Here.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: Two Doting Dads Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: We pay our respects to their elders past and present
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: peoples today. This episode was recorded on gadagal Land