Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Tamara Baker

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Guest: Tamara Baker · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: Tamara Baker is a licensed marriage and family therapist in California and Idaho. She specializes in complex trauma dissociation and couples and family therapy. Tamara spent five years serving in the United States Navy where she traveled the Pacific Ocean and obtained her associate's degree out at sea. Her undergraduate studies are in child and family development, which have proven beneficial in her work with complex trauma and dissociative amnesia. Tamara obtained a graduate degree in counseling psychology from National University California in 2015.
• 1:43
  She integrates many modalities together to best meet her clients where they are including but not limited to art, attachment theory, experiential, existential and trauma therapies. Tamara was trained in eye movement desensitization and reprocessing in 2015, but found brain spotting in 2016 and has since never looked back. She began assisting in brain spotting phase one and phase two trainings for Lisa Larson in California in 2017. She has since assisted Doctor. Melanie Young, Doctor.
• 2:17
  David Grand, and others in training hundreds of therapists who are seeking to become brain spotting therapists. Tamara began the process of becoming a brain spotting consultant in 2020, and over a year long intensive training course she is now helping other therapists strengthen and enhance their understanding and application of the brain spotting theories and setups. She enjoys the flexibility that the brain spotting model allows for her to encourage them to integrate their personal strengths and backgrounds into their brain spotting practice. Tamara currently has a private practice in Ketchum, Idaho, where she lives with her family and dog Odin. Welcome.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: My name is Tanera Baker, and I'm from Redding, California. I was in the Navy for five years. And during that time, I was privileged, I guess, and able to be able to get my undergrad in child and family development. And from there, I was able to pursue a master's degree in counseling psychology. And from there, I just had a fascination with trauma.
• 3:27
  Of course, you know, a lot of us therapists who do have our own and so, I was able to pursue, you know, trained in EMDR and California definitely has so many resources and so, where I was working, I was able to go to these amazing trainings about, you know, trauma and how it affects children because at the time that's where I was working and and then I found brain spotting. And so brain spotting, you know, really revolutionized my feeling in the office as far as trusting myself, trusting the process, and trusting the client and that it, you know, where they need to go, their mind will go, and it's just so freeing and so beautiful and such an amazing way to heal. So I have to be honest that I had not heard of brain spotting at all other than passing conversation with other survivors until the ISSTD conference in Seattle. And then there was this session about brain spotting. And so just catch me up.
• 4:37
  What is brain spotting and what do we need to know about I I'm happy to kinda tell the history of brain spotting if, you know, if your listeners haven't heard how this was created. What do you think? Absolutely. Okay. Cool.
• 4:52
  So, basically, Doctor. David Grand, he was an EMDR therapist. He basically he was a trainer. He was creating his own, like, flow type EMDR, so it was a slower processing. It was a slower eye movement.
• 5:11
  He also had created some bilateral music that, you know, seemed to enhance the process. And he had been working with an ice skater for about a year and a half, I wanna say, and it was, you know, hour and a half sessions weekly, and she was trying to do the triple loop. She would be in it, and then she would lose that. She would lose her position. And so in his EMDR, he was going across her visual field one time, and he intuitively, he saw her eyes dialing.
• 5:46
  He saw her eyes wobble, and he says, the way he says it is, something in me, like, told me to just hold it. It was like they was holding my hand in that one position. And so he held his hand there in a fixed eye position, and, you know, traumas that they had processed prior to this moment had started to come up in this process, and she processed things that they hadn't even touched on. And it- and she said that- that it, you know, felt deeper and different. And so, of course, the next day she called him and said, I did the triple loop.
• 6:19
  I did it. And she was very advanced. So this was an easy, considerably easy for her level. But then she did it. And so David said, well, gosh, there must be something to this.
• 6:31
  I'm I'm gonna be curious about this. And so he had because he was a trainer for EMDR, he had a lot of therapists that were his clients, and so he would be doing EMDR, you know, the slower, processing, and he might see some sort of somatic reaction, and he would intuitively hold it there. And his, the therapists that were seeing him were like, What are you doing? Your EMDR is amazing. And so there kind of is the birth of brain spotting.
• 7:01
  Since then, there has been, you know, some research going into this, particularly I think comparing EMDR with brain spotting. That seems to be because EMDR is so researched. However, I would not say that brain spotting would be considered, you know, evidence based at this time. That's that's an amazing story. How a bit of healing came from this serendipity kind of experience in session.
• 7:33
  Amazing, truly amazing. And practicing brain spotting, you know, the similar things, it's just a different experience. We're not trying to guide the session. We're actually following the neurobiology of what's presenting in the moment. So it is so freeing and so creative and so beautiful, and it's so individual with each person.
• 7:57
  So how does it work in the brain? You're talking about neurobiology. What is happening in the brain for that to be effective, for that to work? Great question. Now, if and if you have any connections with somebody who can or if anybody out there has connections with, an MRI machine, we would love to see this happening real time.
• 8:21
  There is definitely, what we understand, and I'm Hildebrand, I believe, there are some research studies, there are some theses about what is going on. There's a really hard to read. There's a research study done. I know it's Hildebrand and Grant. Frank Corrigan also.
• 8:42
  So, it's Recruiting the Midbrain for Accessing and Healing Sensorimotor Memories of Traumatic Activation. And this is Frank Corrigan and David Grant. So, without going into a ton of detail about the brain, what we know is that where you look affects how you feel. And when we look with our eyes, we're also looking with our brain, as David says, Right? So our eyes are part of our orientation network, I guess you could call it, where it's see it's looking and accessing the environment.
• 9:19
  And so when somebody experiences trauma, your whole system has oriented to that trauma. It had to orient in that moment. And so with that, we have the eyes are part of it, right? So there's other ways to access, you know, smell goes directly to the amygdala, right? So there's other ways to access that trauma.
• 9:46
  Eyes are just the ones that we use. With that, the, you know, I like to say when I was learning BrainSpodding, I'm like, oh, how is this working? I don't understand. And one of the things I looked up was the Mayo Clinic and developmentally, what's happening? And so what I discovered was in the fifth week in utero, the fetus is in three layers, and the top layer is the ectoderm.
• 10:16
  And by the sixth week in utero, the fetus becomes, right, that ectoderm becomes the fetus' skin, the fetus' ears, the nervous system, and the eyes. And so, what we know about the eyes is that, you know, they have, they're the next, like, they have more neurological, neuro fibers and everything similar to the brain. So, they're very there's muscles, they're just amazing, and they're able to access the deeper brain. They're actually, if you think about development, they are actually connected from six weeks in utero to the nervous system, to that midbrain. And so, what the hypothesis is, is that, you know, if you think about the eyes and where they are, they go directly through.
• 11:10
  They also have access to the allocortex, and so they bypass the granular esocortex, which is like basically the difference between your limbic system and your cerebral cortex, right? So, cortex is where you can access the tools and stuff like that, but it's not actually part of regulation. Our brain develops top down, bottom, you know, inside out. Well, ironically, so does it regulate. And so what we believe is that we're able to access the parts of the brain, which again, the limbic system and or allocortex, where regulation is made.
• 11:56
  How does it work or what would someone experience? Great question. Beautiful. Yes, thank you. So, I guess maybe if I'm understanding correctly, it's what does a session look like?
• 12:07
  Sure. What does a session look like for BrainSpotting? So we call it we call it a setup. There are three basic tenets of BrainSpotting, I guess, setups. One is called an inside window, and the inside window is we are trying to find, you know, is there activation, what the person wants to work on, how activated they feel.
• 12:32
  So we still do zero to 10, you know, if you're familiar with EMDR, then you know that that's the subjective units of distress. And then we're finding where they feel it in their body. And then we'll take a pointer, and, you know, there's many different types of pointers, but we'll take out a pointer. People use different things, but essentially the basics is we take out a pointer, we will check the quadrants. So, you look to your, let's say your right, when you think about this issue and feel that in your body, do you feel more or less are the same?
• 13:05
  And then spend a little time there and move to the center. Same thing. What do you notice? It's more or less the same. We're over to your left, and then if they identify where they feel it the most, then we'll do fine tuning.
• 13:22
  So, we find exactly in that quadrant where they're feeling it the most, and then we'll go higher or lower. And that really helps us, it guides us to where they're feeling it the most somatically. Another, I guess, tenet of brain spotting setup would be the outside window. And so in the outside window, we are looking on the outside, kind of like David did when he was working with the ice skater. You know, we are taking the pointer and we are going across the visual field, and we're looking for any type of somatic expression, something, or intuition, and then we'll choose to hold that spot for them.
• 14:05
  And that we tend to use that with people who are having a more difficult time accessing internally, you know, their internal experience. So many people, I'm sure it's you're aware with all the work that you've put into this field and interviewing and everything, all the trainings, that people are disconnected. And so it's really nice to have, you know, other ways to try to access the trauma. And then there's something we call gaze spotting. And so gaze spotting is, and once you know this, you start to see it all the time.
• 14:42
  So, basically, if somebody's talking about the issue that they want to work on and they look at this one particular place or they continue to go to that, or maybe they have a couple, I might invite somebody, especially you know, if they're new or they've had a hard time accessing, I might invite them to just look at that one eye position and see what comes up as they notice their experience and as they talk about it. So, these are the foundations of how we gain access. If someone were interested in brain spotting, what would they need to know to prepare for or find that kind of therapist who could offer that? Yeah, there is a website. It's brainscotting.com, and that's David's website.
• 15:29
  And, you know, there is a plethora of therapists listed on there. We do have, you know, a Facebook page. So, we're able to network with each other, and so if somebody was to say reach out to me, I might be able to refer them to somebody in their area. So, there's there's many resources out there. Rocky Mountain Brain Spotting, pretty much we are worldwide.
• 15:54
  Brain Spotting is in so many different countries. It is very exciting. We have trainers, all over. I, you know, there's in South America and, you know, Asia, and we're just truly, if you were looking for somebody, there's a really good chance that you can get in contact with somebody who can work with you. And also, to your other question, what would somebody need to know?
• 16:21
  Well, what we, you know, some people like to come in and they just like to go. Like, they just, okay, I heard about it, I just want to get in there and I want to do the work. And that's great, and again, if you were able to watch our presentation, we are following the client. Some people, their neurobiology, need more information, and so there's a book called Brain Spotting Out There, there's by Doctor. David Grand, there's other books about brain spotting.
• 16:49
  David has one, This Is Your Brain on Sports. And so for performance, that's a great resource. So, you know, it just depends on the person and their neurobiology and their system and what it's feeling comfortable with. So, if you're somebody who likes to know and you know that your mind will not let you settle into doing the work unless you have all the details, then, you know, brainspotting.com and rockymountainbrainspottinginstitute.com is there's a great resources. There's another institute over I'm I'm probably I'm sorry.
• 17:24
  I don't know this off the top of my head, but there's another institute that's like the Midwest Brain Spotting Institute, there might be one in the South. I'm not sure. So many resources if you were to want to seek that out. Is there anything specific that someone needs to know about what that experience is like or what it feels like before they try it? That's a great question.
• 17:49
  And the hard part of this, again, is each person, their experience is different and their neurobiology is different, so I would say most people have their own unique experience. Where people I think I see struggle the most are the ones who have a very active cerebral cortex. They're the thinkers, they don't want to let go, they don't want to, you know, move into the process, or they just can't. It's maybe not a choice, they just can't or they can't connect to their bodies. And if, you know, I and that's where the creativity comes because working with somebody, you know, the client that we presented at the conference, really the art came from, you know, being aware that I'm working with a younger part.
• 18:41
  And so in that moment, I decided maybe let's try something different because they were having a hard time. The block continued to be there. And so let's put this block and explore it in a different way. So, know, brain spotting therapists, hopefully, know, especially if they're certified that they're able to move with the client and what is presenting in the moment. So if a therapist wants to learn more about brain spotting or get trained in brain spotting, what do they do?
• 19:16
  Where do they go? You mentioned some resources. Are those the same places that a therapist would look? Absolutely. I think brainspotting.com would be their best bet to get into, get involved in.
• 19:29
  There's, again, there's many different trainers. There is, I want to say there's a training still being done for the BIPOC community, and I'm trying, it's John Edwards, so it's very, I guess, exclusive for the BIPOC community. And then, you know, there's just there's these amazing people. And what I have been so blessed is I have assisted many of them in the trainings. And, you know, just like a person, each training, each and so I'm thinking each brain spine session is different, with the trainees and the trainers.
• 20:05
  So based on their approach and who they are and their background and their neurobiology, it's it's just all different. So I have had so much fun being able to learn from these many different trainers, and they all uniquely are them and bring a unique experience in their brain spotting trainings. They also have their own unique websites, though if you wanted to look more into them, you can find out more. What else do you have that we need to know? Well, it depends, Emma, how deep you wanna go here as far as the, you know, concept and the theory of brain spotting.
• 20:40
  I will say there was a study done by MDR, and again, it's not to knock EMDR because EMDR is an amazing tool, and I have a friend and, you know, she's trained in both, and she loves EMDR just as much as she loves brain spotting, and we laugh about it cause we're like, yeah, they're just different frames. That's one of the things we talk about in brain spotting. We're setting the frame and it depends on the person and where they're at, determines how we set the frame. So, I think just, but this was done outside of brain spotting. It was EMDREA, you know, the EMDR International Association, and what they did is they, and I'm happy to provide this study to you as well if you want it, they took people, you know, different groups, random trial, and they did bilateral stimulation, and then they did fixed eye position, which they didn't call it brain spotting, but that's essentially what we do foundationally, even though that's not all we do because we will have movements in our setups, which is fine.
• 21:44
  And they had the control group, and what they found is that there was similar outcome at the end of the session. So, EMDR and fixed eye position had similar outcome. What I think is very profound that they also found is six months follow-up, the people who only did fixed eye position actually had improved compared to the other groups. So it's really exciting, and knowing that, you know, some people do need the bilateral and that's okay. What else do we need to know?
• 22:15
  That would be determined on what you're curious about. I'm, you know, as far as the theory with brain spouting, we really some of the core tenets of that is we follow our clients, and so, you know, we really try to be aware. The the analogy is that our client is the comet and we're following wherever it goes. David has been, you know, really putting together the neuro experiential of brain spotting, which I think is really cool because the way I conceptualize that is when we, when we're in following the tail, when we're following that comment wherever it's going, you know, there's a different experience for each one. One comment may turn left, one may turn right, one may go down, one may slow down.
• 23:11
  And so it's just really neat to be continuously creating this thing we call brain spotting, but truly, you know, just trying to follow the client and where their healing comes from and where it needs to go. We also have something called the no assumptions model. So, basically, anything goes in my office, meaning I will, I'm not going to assume that I know, so I'm not the expert in the office. I'm not here to tell the client what I think. I may postulate with them, you know, you said this and this, what do you think, how do those connect?
• 23:49
  But ultimately, there are no assumptions. We also have embraced the uncertainty model, which I guess, this isn't exactly, but essentially, Socrates said something along the lines, If I know one thing, it is that I know nothing. And so that's when I come into the room with my client, you know, I do have the tools, I have the thoughts, but ultimately they're the expert, their brain is the expert, and I am going to trust that and follow it. And so that allows for me to be attuned to them and their neurobiology, plus open to wherever that comment may take us. I'm open and I don't have any expectations of where we need to go.
• 24:34
  So just very centered on what the client is needing when they walk into the room or what they're bringing into the room, but then also during brain spotting, like as a tool, responsive to what the client is presenting somatically. Absolutely. Or emotionally or their thoughts. You know, for example, if somebody's like, I'm really distracted. I'm only thinking about the list that I have to do today.
• 25:02
  And I might invite them to notice that. Just notice the list. Notice your mind feeling distracted and see where that takes you. Sometimes it's, I dunno, I just have a lot on my plate and it's like, Okay. And sometimes it's, Oh, you know what, I do this.
• 25:18
  This is what I do in my life. Remember doing this as a kid, and I remember I had to do that to be able to, you know, not fail my parents and suffer rejection or whatever, right? Just an example. It's our brains can use all things. And so, again, not assuming what's coming up has meaning.
• 25:37
  I'm just constantly in curiosity with my client. It's fascinating to me because when you hear brain spotting, like just the term without any context and not knowing anything about it, it sounds like you're putting a spot on the brain like that's what it sounds like but everything I'm hearing you talk about is about making connections connecting with your client, the client making connections like associating associations between this and this, the client connecting to the brain trying to heal itself, all of these things going on at the same time. Beautiful, beautiful summary of of brain spotting and truly the neuro experiential and the in the room moment. Yes. To your point, the name, and I I wanna say, I think Francine Shapiro even was like, oh, I wish I didn't name it this.
• 26:30
  I think David has had similar sentiments. I think the reason why it was coined as brain spotting, I Robert Scare, he wrote many books. He was an amazing, you know, neurologist, I believe, doctor, and he wrote Eight Keys to Brain Body Balance, which is a great book. It's supposed to be in layman's terms. I didn't think it was in layman's terms, but, you know, everybody has their own level.
• 26:58
  However, he coined the term trauma capsule. And so the way that it's the brain spotting, I think originally was looked at is we are spotting the brain with the eyes. So we're taking that eye position and it's accessing the trauma capsule inside of the brain. And, you know, the superior colliculus is connected to the eyes, and so the eyes are able to connect to that, and it's kind of acts as if it is a bookmark to the brain and to memories. And- and so, essentially, the neurological network connected to where the eyes are orienting to.
• 27:38
  So, again, I don't think I understand what you're saying, Emma, as far as the name and how it can be misleading and why people have different perspectives of it. So I'm glad that we're able to have this conversation and clear the air. It's really incredible, the connections and the processing that's happening when you're giving these examples or talking about how it works and the neurobiology of it. And I think that it just sounds really powerful as a tool in that way. And I would say so.
• 28:12
  And, you know, I guess maybe I would want to caution because, gosh, especially in trainings, you see these amazing breakthroughs and, you know, even for me, I'm just like, ugh, you know, this is so cool. This person just healed the thing, and then they're like, changed. And so, you know, everybody has their own journey to walk and their own healing journey, and, you know, I do have other, you know, therapists as clients who get discouraged because, well, why can't I have the healing that I see at these trainings or my clients are experiencing? And so I just want to, yes, it is so powerful and it's so profound, you know, and even for, for those people, but they get discouraged because they're in this place where like, why can't I arrive? Which is a whole other topic of issue to work on, but, you know, being being kind and compassionate through the process is very important as well, and those reminders can be really important, if you do feel discouraged, like, I'm just not getting there, and where is there, right?
• 29:24
  Where is there? Where do I want to be? But it is powerful, and I have seen amazing healing. I've experienced amazing healing. I am doing my own work every other week.
• 29:33
  I'm you know, because I want to continue healing myself. And so there is something called self spotting. I was not referring to that. I have a colleague and me actually trade brain spotting with one another, but there is something called self spotting. So I I wanna also mention that, Emma, if that's okay.
• 29:53
  Absolutely. Okay. So, basically, it is it is people can do that. Right? People can self spot.
• 30:02
  And some of my clients who have done a lot of brain spotting, I totally feel comfortable with that. It is recommended that if you are gonna self spot, that you do it from a resourced place, which basically looks like, you know, finding a place in your body where you feel calm, grounded, neutral, or not activated and processing from there, especially if you're not experienced in this. Because if you go to the activation and you don't have somebody there to hold that space with you, you know, the fear, I think, would be that you are retraumatized or you have a bad experience or, you know, you don't have somebody looking after you. I prefer somebody to hold the space with me. That feels good to me.
• 30:42
  However, I know there's a lot of brain spotting therapists that they brain spot on their own and they're okay with that. So if you see that out there, you know, just just move with caution because you are working with your brain. Are there any other contraindications or times or people or issues that brain spotting is maybe not the first or best go to tool or that people should be wary of using it or seeking it out? That's a great question. Again, as Doctor.
• 31:11
  Melanie Young says, she's the trainer that I have worked with the most. It depends. So, what we see questions in trainings are people who have seizures. And what I will say is I have worked with somebody with seizures. They would set up their environment to where they felt safe.
• 31:28
  You know, talking to the doctor and making sure that it's safe is always recommended. However, they were able to brain spot and brain spot successfully, and a seizure was never triggered. However, if one had been, I would have been open to taking that as what needed to be in the moment. Just like disassociation. So, if somebody is disassociating, which is another, you know, issue that might come up that people are concerned about, if- if somebody is in disassociation, that's part of their neurological memory.
• 31:59
  And so I don't shy away from that. Brain spotting doesn't shy away from that. We actually invite them to go into it and notice it. And typically, it's it- it- it- it can bring forth information, whether I- I just can't go there, whether it's a block and then we're working with the block. We're just constantly moving with what's presenting.
• 32:19
  Also, addictions. We see, you know, should we work with somebody actively in addiction and or pregnant? And, you know, again, you have to use your best judgment. It depends on the person. I had somebody who was unfortunately at a suicidal place, and, you know, I had a tinge of fear that I was going to, you know, if we went into brain spotting it, that she may leave in a place that wasn't good for her.
• 32:46
  However, I presented it to her. So that again is the no assumption model. Would you like to brain spot with this? And she said, Yeah. And so, you know what?
• 32:55
  I have to trust that. I have to trust her that her and her body and her system knows what it means to heal. So presenting it to your clients and asking them is really important. And a lot of times people aren't used to that. And so helping them trust their intuition is really important in this work.
• 33:15
  Kids, we brain spot with kiddos, we brain spot as with couples, we brain spot, you name it, we're brain spotting performance, expansion. So again, it's very creative. It's very I guess what I will say is, as a therapist, you know, once you learn the foundation, what I love about just the Brain Spotting culture is then you get to make Brain Spotting your own. So you get to bring your neurobiology. You get to bring your experiences.
• 33:44
  You get to bring your strengths and and really entwine it into brain spotting. Brain spotting, David says, you know, don't throw out your old tools. It's not all inclusive. You really want to be integrative with it. So, yeah, really cool.
• 34:02
  Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you have to share or wanted to say before I let you go? Well, I I I don't know as far as Brainspotting. I do wanna thank you, Emma. I thank you for your work.
• 34:15
  I've been able to, you know, listen through some of your podcasts just trying to get a feel for what this is like on your end, because I've heard so many different types of podcasts and your vulnerability, with your- your whole system is so beautiful, and your eagerness to learn and really support, you know, the community is just beautiful. So, I want to mainly thank you for giving me the opportunity to bring some light to Brain Spotting, and, you know, if anybody, I guess, wanted to reach out, but I'm happy to talk and try to help, you know, anyone get to where they need to be, whether they're a therapist looking for trainings or a client, you know, someone looking for this type of work and is looking for a therapist, I will do the best I can. So, I guess you could reach me at, TamaraKBakergmail dot com or Tamara Baker MFT dot com. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing.