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A Prairie Dawn Companion - Of Smartness and Tinas · Muppet Fan Podcasts with ToughPigs.com

0:03
What happens when the biggest kid show in the world gets
0:07
bigger? That's the story of Sesame
0:10
Street as we move through the 1970s.
0:13
As discussed in earlier episodes, by 1975, Sesame merch
0:18
was everywhere. More and more story books were
0:22
released every day, alongside a monthly magazine full of art,
0:26
stories, games, and crafts. The show itself became bigger,
0:31
too, and in the process shifted into something more recognizable
0:36
to nostalgic millennials who think back on their childhood.
0:40
During the show's second season, the monster at the end of this
0:44
book was released, cementing Sesame's permanent place in
0:48
children's literature. Season 3 brought new human
0:52
characters Maria and Luis, played by Sonia Manzano and
0:56
Emilio Delgado respectively, as well as the gigantic Muppet Mr.
1:01
Snuffleupagus. Season 4 introduced one of the
1:05
show's most famous Muppet characters, the eccentric Count
1:09
von Count, alongside. Biff the construction worker,
1:13
Frantic Monster, Frazzle and Sam the robot.
1:18
Likewise, that season also introduced classic animated
1:22
segments that continued to air and be referenced well into the
1:25
20 tens and twenty 20s, like The Alligator King, Ladybug's
1:30
Picnic, and I Can Remember. Now don't forget a loaf of
1:34
bread, a container of milk, and a stick of butter.
1:38
If you can't remember, I'll write it down for you.
1:41
That's OK, Mommy, I won't forget.
1:43
I remember. So if Sesame Street is becoming
1:46
more, that surely means more female Muppets, right?
1:52
After all, half of all children are female, right?
1:56
And representation matters. The reflection hypothesis,
2:00
symbolic annihilation, all those other moderately extensive words
2:05
I'm always using. The show is getting bigger,
2:09
right? So, more female Muppets, right?
2:17
Well, sort of. I can't stress enough how much
2:20
wait Prairie, Dawn, and, to a much lesser extent, Betty Lou
2:24
are pulling at this point. As we discussed last week,
2:28
Prairie was already making inroads into being the female
2:33
Muppet of Sesame Street, even if her appearances were still
2:36
nowhere near as frequent as, say, Grover's.
2:41
By 1972, our petite pink pals were really the only members of
2:46
the old guard of female characters still appearing in
2:49
new material. Roosevelt, Franklin's mother,
2:52
and Franny had been retired from speaking roles, consigned to the
2:57
big puppet heaped in the sky, and Granny Fanny would appear
3:01
once in Season 4 before riding her unicycle into the sunset.
3:06
So who replaced them? Well, if you look at 1973, when
3:11
Season 4 ended and Season 5 began, somehow the answer is
3:15
both many characters and absolutely no one.
3:20
And that's what we're exploring today.
3:23
That's right, I know what I'm saying.
3:25
I'm Becca Petunia, and today we're going back to school as we
3:30
talk Smart, Tina, Suzetta, Something and the Twiddlebugs on
3:35
today's episode of A Prairie Dawn Companion.
3:39
Ladies and gentlemen, the Starlight Hotel takes great
3:43
pride in presenting the world's favorite 6 year old entertainer,
3:48
Miss Prairie. Dawn, come on and girls, girls,
3:52
girls, let's go do girls, can you play a song with a beats?
4:13
So like I said, we're talking about a couple of minor
4:16
characters today, specifically in order of introduction, Smart,
4:20
Tina, Suzetta something, Tessie Twiddlebug and Tina Twiddlebug.
4:26
Before I bring in my guest to talk about clips, you know, like
4:30
I usually do, I want to address something that is very
4:33
interesting about these characters.
4:36
They were most often part of different ensembles than the
4:40
main Muppets and humans of Sesame Street, Smart Tina and
4:45
Suzetta. Something basically only
4:47
appeared in the Roosevelt Franklin Elementary School
4:50
sketches, which featured an entirely new cast of characters
4:55
to accompany old favorite Roosevelt Franklin now appearing
4:59
at school rather than with his mother.
5:22
And the other Tina? Tina Twiddlebug.
5:25
And yeah, there's 2. Tina's introduced in what was
5:28
basically a one year span. If that doesn't give you an idea
5:33
about how unimportant these characters are, well, the other
5:37
Tina and her mom Tessie only appear alongside dad Thomas
5:42
Twiddlebug and brother Timmy Twiddlebug.
5:45
This makes sense because the Twiddlebugs are an inch high and
5:48
live in Ernie's window box, so they're not exactly going to
5:52
show up to play hopscotch with Big Bird.
5:55
When these characters can't form relationships with the main
5:59
Sesame gang, it becomes extremely difficult for them to
6:02
become main characters. They're separate, never able to
6:06
be the focus of a storyline or bounce off of 90% of the
6:10
characters we love. Tina and Susetta can only
6:14
interact with new characters and Roosevelt Franklin always on the
6:18
school set. Tina and Tessie are even worse,
6:22
since while they appear alongside Ernie, they don't seem
6:25
to realize that Ernie exists. Our friend is a God like being
6:30
to them, omnipotent and omnipresent, controlling the
6:34
weather with his watering can. There, you know all my plants
6:39
are watered. Gee, I hope the twiddle bugs
6:42
didn't. Get wet.
6:47
OK, sorry for getting old existential, but the point still
6:50
stands. What chance did these newcomers
6:53
ever stand at becoming main cast members when they're arguably as
6:57
much of the cast as the Ladybugs Picnic 12?
7:01
Which explains how my guest today told me that she wasn't
7:04
aware of any of them. But that's great, a fresh
7:08
perspective to talk about the next wave of female stars.
7:13
Joining me from toughpigs.com. Writer and all around great.
7:17
Gal, Drake, Lucas. Let's go chat with her over in
7:21
the guest corner. All right, it's Showtime,
7:24
people. Oh, welcome.
7:31
Oh, welcome to our little play Play.
7:49
So as I said, my guest today is Drake Lucas from toughpigs.com.
7:55
Drake, you're one of the newer writers with Tough Pigs,
7:59
although you've been how long have you been with Tough Pigs?
8:02
Newer is only relative. I think 2-3 years.
8:07
Yeah, it's, it's not that new, but you might be a, a kind of
8:11
new voice to some of our listeners because you've really
8:15
only been on one Tough Pigs podcast before.
8:18
So why don't you, why don't you tell everybody a little bit
8:20
about yourself and your your history with The Muppets?
8:25
Sure. Thanks Becca.
8:26
I'm happy to be here. And I just grew up loving The
8:30
Muppets, and I did not realize there was this amazing fan
8:34
community. So I came to it more recently
8:37
and I was so excited to find that there are other people out
8:40
there who geek out. I just thought everybody was a
8:43
Muppet fan in a nostalgic kind of way, but realized, no, you
8:47
can be more than that. So that that's why I've enjoyed
8:52
being with Tough Pigs and meeting everyone in the
8:54
community here. Well, we're so glad to have you.
8:56
And, and that's why I've been so excited to have you on the show
9:00
because you've been doing the recurring Muppet Gals Talking
9:04
series for toughpigs.com, where you've been interviewing some of
9:08
the female performers with The Muppets about the work that they
9:12
do. And that means that you're
9:15
already thinking about how important you know the, the, the
9:19
role of these female characters and female performers performing
9:23
these female characters can be. Yeah, it seems like, you know,
9:29
from Craig Shemans book really kind of underlined it for me
9:33
that there were so many women involved in The Muppets that we
9:36
don't hear about. And that's from performers to
9:39
costume designers to puppet designers to writers to
9:43
producers. I mean, they have all different
9:44
roles in there. And yeah, I think, you know, for
9:46
most people you're familiar with the big, the big ones, the, the
9:51
main guys that are doing The Muppets.
9:53
And it's, it's really great to be able to talk with the women
9:58
who have been involved and really been so important going
10:02
all the way back to Jane Henson in shaping the the voice and the
10:06
look of The Muppets and, and really highlighting what they've
10:10
been able to bring. Yeah, and I, I really appreciate
10:13
it. I always look forward to
10:15
whenever you post one of those articles.
10:18
Oh, thanks Becca, I enjoy doing them.
10:20
We're not going to really talk about many of those performers
10:22
today. Well, sort of, but not fully
10:26
because as I told you, we're here to talk a little bit about
10:31
some Tinas as well as as well as a Tessie and a Susetta.
10:37
Because as my as my audience knows, we are talking about the
10:42
Roosevelt Franklin Elementary sketches today and the Twiddle
10:47
Bugs sketches today. 1 appeared at the end of season 4 and 1
10:53
appeared at the start of season 5 that actually before and I I I
10:57
should have said this earlier, but like.
10:59
How about with? Sesame Street in particular.
11:01
I know you've been watching through a lot of old Sesame
11:04
Street stuff with your daughter recently, but what's your
11:08
history with this kind of universe in particular?
11:11
Because I know you told me you weren't familiar with the
11:14
Twiddlebugs, really. Or Roosevelt Franklin's
11:18
classmates. You weren't really familiar with
11:20
them before, before this recording.
11:23
That's true. So, you know, it's interesting.
11:25
I do not remember watching Sesame Street as a kid.
11:28
I know I must have because I know all of the characters and I
11:33
recognize them. And I know toys and, you know, I
11:36
knew songs. I definitely had albums, but I
11:38
don't actually remember watching it.
11:41
And I think there was, I must have watched it as a kid.
11:45
There was a long gap where I did not watch it.
11:47
My Muppet family Christmas was where I saw all the all the
11:50
Sesame Street characters. So when I really got interested
11:55
in learning more about The Muppets as an adult, I started
11:59
reading the background of Sesame Street Street gang, you know,
12:03
and the Jim Henson biography, you know, watching
12:07
documentaries, I am Big Bird, that that kind of thing.
12:10
And so I know a lot of it from that angle.
12:12
And then, of course, when my I had a daughter, she's now 8, but
12:17
I got more immersed in the Sesame Street world.
12:19
But kind of as now with the way that in which you can watch it,
12:24
it's from the beginning to the end.
12:26
So the sketches she loved were Ernie and Bert and, you know,
12:30
Mr. Johnson and Grover. And then we would watch songs
12:34
and I loved watching the like initial, you know, first the
12:39
first series with her, but then we'd jump around and total bugs
12:43
and Roswell Franklin just didn't.
12:45
I mean, I'm I'm from I like I know of them, but I was not as
12:48
familiar with them. And wow, what two different
12:52
universes those characters reside in?
12:56
I mean, Sesame Street contains multitudes because they are they
13:02
are quite a different variety. Yeah, you know the only.
13:05
Real linking factor between these characters, besides the
13:09
fact that two of them are named Tina.
13:11
But the only real linking thing between these characters is that
13:14
these characters really did. You know, Tina Susetta and the
13:19
rest of the Roosevelt Franklin Gang and the Twiddlebugs really
13:23
lived in sort of like their own spheres where like you didn't.
13:28
There's a couple of exceptions that I'm sure folks who are
13:32
listening are going to yell at me about on the Discord.
13:35
I know the head ball sketches exist.
13:38
You don't have to tell me that, but with only a few exceptions,
13:42
you know, smart Tina and Susetta and hard head Henry Harris and
13:47
baby breeze, they only really appeared in that Roosevelt
13:52
Franklin Elementary sketch with Roosevelt Franklin.
13:55
You wouldn't see them on a guy smiley game show or hanging out
13:59
with Grover or, you know, talking to to to Susan and and
14:04
and Bob. There's there's a good reason
14:07
for that that we'll get into in a second, but folks listen,
14:10
might know. And the twiddle bugs are the
14:13
same. They interact with Ernie, but
14:15
calling it interacting is kind of a not really.
14:19
They're not really interacting. They're reacting to Ernie, but
14:22
they don't know what's going on and you're not going to see
14:26
them, you know, with the core cast.
14:30
So we have these kind of like shingles of Sesame Street that
14:34
we're seeing as the show expands.
14:37
No Roosevelt Franklin we talked about on episode 4 of this show.
14:42
We talked a lot about Roosevelt Franklin because in that episode
14:46
with my guest Christie O, we talked about Roosevelt
14:49
Franklin's mother who was his original sort of Co *.
14:54
By 1973 Season 4, Roosevelt Franklin's mother wasn't
15:00
appearing anymore and instead they paired Roosevelt Franklin
15:04
with these new classmates on the segment Roosevelt Franklin
15:08
Elementary. Roosevelt Franklin Elementary is
15:11
an interesting segment because Roosevelt Franklin is definitely
15:15
a child, but also seems to be teaching the class every time.
15:21
Where's Roosevelt? Franklin better get in here.
15:24
I will learn something. Everybody stand up.
15:35
We're all standing up. Everybody sit down.
15:40
We're all sitting down. It's also an interesting segment
15:44
because, as I've alluded to, it introduces a bunch of new
15:47
characters, and these new characters are anything Muppets.
15:51
We don't know who puppeteered these anything Muppets because
15:56
they are voiced by the Sesame Street human cast.
16:01
So smart. Tina is voiced by Sonia Manzano,
16:04
Maria and Susetta something is voiced by Loretta Long, who was
16:10
Susan. What's your take on these
16:12
characters? Let's let's talk about honestly
16:14
the segment as a whole. What's your take on this segment
16:16
as a whole? Roosevelt.
16:17
Franklin Elementary. It's so interesting.
16:20
I mean, I, I really enjoyed it actually.
16:23
I think these I think these characters, they have such
16:29
interesting nuance to them and they're a little bit different
16:31
than than what you see and some of the other sketches.
16:37
But as you mentioned, it's supposed to be this elementary
16:39
school. It had a very greased vibes to
16:42
me. Like it felt like some sort of
16:45
like high school situation. Obviously no teacher oversight.
16:53
And I I actually love the interaction between these
16:57
characters. You can tell that teasing is a
16:59
love language for them. You know, they each seem pretty
17:04
confident in their voices and wanting to put their voice
17:08
forward. And yet in that kind of, again,
17:11
high school way where you have that kind of a bit of like, you
17:14
want to act cool. You want to be, you want to be
17:17
the cool kid, you know? And yet they kind of police
17:20
themselves. They're kind of like, you know,
17:21
give them a chance, let them talk.
17:22
You know, I, I do think that smart Tina kind of has to prove
17:28
herself. Obviously she she has lots to
17:31
say and she wants to say it. And the other kids are like,
17:34
here she goes again, you know, here comes smart Tina.
17:37
And yet, and yet she comes through and she's she's, she's
17:42
got some interesting moments where she like, admits I was
17:45
wrong. Yes, I guess I was wrong for
17:49
once. For once.
17:53
You know, she doesn't like double down.
17:54
She admits she was wrong. She comes through on the poem.
17:57
So I felt like, you know, there were she was she's kind of that
18:04
know it all that I think we all had some point in some of our
18:07
classes. But they're not bad and you
18:10
don't hate them. But there's a lot of teasing
18:12
that goes on. Well, that's one thing that's
18:15
super interesting about the sketches as a whole.
18:17
And, and again, we'll get into more specifics about Smart Tina
18:21
in a second, but one of the things that strikes me as so
18:24
interesting watching this now is like you said, how different it
18:28
is than the rest of Sesame Street because you said teasing
18:31
is kind of their love language and you get the sense that
18:34
they're all friends. But also, like, I can't imagine
18:38
the regular Sesame Street Muppets talking to each other
18:41
the way that Roosevelt Franklin's classmates talk to
18:45
each other. No, it's a totally different
18:47
vibe, Yeah. The Africa segment is like super
18:50
interesting because it is dealing with this really
18:53
important issue that children tend to.
18:56
Children and adults tend to let stereotypes from media sort of
19:00
shape the way that they picture a, you know, a region of the
19:04
world. You know, the idea that
19:06
Roosevelt Franklin has to teach his friends like, look, there
19:09
are cities in Africa, guys. Like there are cities.
19:12
There is is a huge deal. But in that one, you know it
19:15
ends with hard head Henry Harris saying that.
19:19
She got feet like a African elephant.
19:24
And there is no apology to that. The characters just fight until
19:29
the end of until the sketch ends.
19:31
Like the characters just fight. And it's it's it's funny.
19:36
But in some ways that was kind of the the doom of Roosevelt,
19:41
Franklin and Roosevelt Franklin's elementary.
19:44
And I don't know if you know the the back story there, what with
19:48
why you probably don't know Roosevelt Franklin and his
19:52
classmates, but they didn't stick around.
19:55
And I tried to do some research into why.
19:57
There's a whole bunch of different reasons given, but
20:00
basically it seems to be some discussion of Roosevelt Franklin
20:06
and his classmates misusing AAVE African American Vernacular
20:11
English in ways that some people felt were offensive, and also
20:17
that Roosevelt Franklin's class was too rowdy and too raucous.
20:23
And that is cited in the Sesame Street 40 years book as, as a
20:28
big reason why they, they couldn't last this, this
20:32
difference. But yeah, I really do like it in
20:36
its own way. I, I can't speak to the AAVE
20:40
component. I don't want to sound, you know,
20:42
again, like that's something that I would obviously defer to
20:46
a, an expert in that field and someone I would love to talk to
20:51
about this in the future. But as, as a segment that's fun
20:57
to watch. I, I think it is you started
20:59
talking about smart Tina. I, I don't want to do all the
21:02
talking here and I'm sorry, Drake, but you, you, you started
21:07
talking about smart Tina and how she has a lot to prove it feels
21:12
like. Yeah, it I mean just in the way
21:15
that she she really wants to be seen as smart.
21:18
You know, I know that's her name.
21:20
I think smart Tina is like, no, what?
21:22
I'll say nothing Tina. But you know, she's she
21:26
obviously gets with the other kids teaser and she wants to
21:31
project being smart and as smart as the thing that is going to
21:36
bring her status in the classroom.
21:39
You know, obviously she doesn't know everything And and you
21:43
know, that is part of the I think conversation with these
21:47
jokes, but she also doesn't I mean, the the joke about I
21:51
really liked the the Africa lesson.
21:53
I thought it was a really good way to present that And the the
21:59
very end with the joke about the the elephant feet.
22:03
I mean, she doesn't just like shrink away then or something.
22:07
She's like chasing that guy around.
22:09
And everyone's like, I don't want to hear what Dina has to
22:11
say to him now. You know, like, it's almost like
22:14
provoking her because he knows she can take it in a way because
22:18
there is that conversation within the classroom and there
22:21
isn't the sense that that she will be forever, you know, like
22:29
traumatized by this, this one line.
22:31
I feel like there's been a back and forth between those two
22:34
characters for a long time And we're coming into that
22:36
relationship. I'm not saying that's great to,
22:40
you know, humiliate a classmate in front of everyone and and
22:43
bring them along on this poem in which they're being called an
22:46
African queen and then tell them they have elephant feet.
22:48
But I did feel like it was part of a broader conversation
22:51
between those two characters that we were coming into.
22:55
And and I did get that that little that rising there is like
23:00
if they if they feel they can't tease you, that's a problem.
23:04
Like you, you kind of maybe haven't found your place yet.
23:07
And I think she, in a way, has found her place in the
23:10
classroom, but is going to continually try to prove herself
23:12
as this, you know, the smartest one in the room.
23:15
We do see. That with the teasing that I
23:17
feel like even in and I didn't send you every single one of
23:21
these Roosevelt Franklin Elementary sketches 'cause
23:23
there's actually a bunch, but it feels like every character gets
23:27
their turn being the butt of the joke and every character gets
23:31
their turn teasing the other characters.
23:34
You know it's not. Continually picking on someone,
23:38
you know, there's not like someone who's the total like
23:40
loser of the classroom and everybody's like, oh, let's just
23:43
dump on whoever again. Yeah, like so in the in the
23:46
traffic one, which I think was the first one that I sent you,
23:50
where baby Breeze is like Tina, you have to shut up.
23:58
Smartina, when it is your turn to teach the lesson, you teach
24:04
your lesson. Right now it is Baby Breeze's
24:09
lesson. Now you understand where I'm
24:11
coming from. But it's not.
24:14
But then we see in the later one in the in the the too cool to
24:17
cry one that like the other kids are making fun of Baby Breeze in
24:22
in that one. And Baby Breeze is sad about it.
24:26
He alright? The window would open and the
24:28
air knocked him down. No, that wasn't it.
24:29
That wasn't it. It was 5 million wild horses
24:35
that ran all over him. Latina y'all were in here and
24:39
you saw the rocket ship flying through the window and knocking
24:42
to the moon. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,
24:45
wait. Wait.
24:46
And again, it is this weird. Like I like that you you
24:50
mentioned it as almost like a love language because it feels
24:52
familial in the sense that like it's not like, oh, we just
24:57
always make fun of baby breeze. It's like, no, we're going to
24:59
make fun of Baby Breeze and Baby Breeze is going to make fun of
25:02
us, you know? I feel like there's.
25:06
More to say about Smart Tina than Susetta something.
25:10
Agreed. What's your read?
25:13
What's your read on Susetta? Do you have a read on Susetta I?
25:18
Don't have much of A read on Susetta to be honest.
25:21
I didn't quite get the, you know, she had the poem about her
25:25
checkers learning checkers. She sure did.
25:29
You know, I did enjoy that, that classroom poetry Slim.
25:33
I I feel like, yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel as strongly about
25:38
her. I also would say though, that,
25:42
you know, Sonia really I feel like had a very strong voice for
25:48
smart Tina and really, really like I felt like it helped
25:53
define her and what they were trying to do.
25:56
I maybe just didn't see enough of Suzetta to really form as
25:59
much of A an opinion on her. Well, that's OK because you saw
26:03
basically every sketch where she has more than one line of
26:07
dialogue. So the answer is she just didn't
26:10
do much. And you know, it is interesting
26:12
that you point that out because obviously I, I love, I love
26:15
Loretta Long a lot too. But I do feel like Sonia would
26:22
do stronger character things on the show than Loretta Long.
26:27
Like Loretta Long was like always Susan, which is great
26:31
because Susan is a lovely person.
26:32
But like, you know, there were like the Charlie Chaplin bits
26:36
with Maria and stuff and like, yeah, that's different because
26:41
obviously in the Charlie Chaplin bits she wasn't talking.
26:45
And smart Tina never shuts up. But it is that sense of like, I
26:51
get the sense that Sonia liked to do like make big character
26:56
choices in a different way than Loretta did.
26:59
And I'm kind of just, you know, I need to speak to both of these
27:02
people to be able to say that for certain.
27:04
But it's just something that I that I think is maybe, maybe
27:08
there if you think about the show as a whole.
27:11
Yeah. And I'd be curious to know like
27:13
if they were, when they were, you know, filming this, if they
27:16
were all in a room just kind of trading, you know, trading
27:20
these, this dialogue. And, and obviously they would
27:24
have had something scripted, but maybe there's a little bit of
27:27
like how they played off each other more that gets reflected
27:32
in the puppetry. So I, I, I think it's a little
27:34
hard to know how that was happening in that space.
27:38
And maybe that is a space in which Sonia felt more
27:42
comfortable kind of putting that voice forward or maybe the
27:47
character dictated it, depending on how on how they were created.
27:52
So. I, I truly wish we knew more of
27:54
the behind the scenes stuff of these.
27:55
And I think partly because these were kind of canned and wrapped
28:00
up very quickly. Again, like, like I was saying,
28:03
there was controversy. We don't have much, like I said,
28:07
we don't know who was the puppeteer of each individual
28:10
character. I'm pretty sure it was.
28:13
I mean, I I'm pretty sure it would make sense if it was
28:16
recorded 1st and then lip synched by the puppeteers, you
28:20
know, kind of Sam and friend style that that seems to be what
28:23
would make the most sense. But I guess I don't even know.
28:26
That for a fact. One thing that's really
28:30
interesting that I learned is we don't know who's voicing or
28:34
puppeteering hard head Henry Harris.
28:37
Oh, we don't even know the voice that Nope, I do.
28:39
I kind of like that. Guy, I kind of like hard head
28:43
Henry Harris too, so. Like he's different.
28:45
I I like these lessons because they are, I mean, even in the
28:50
traffic one, it's like, damn, the car knocks the guy right
28:53
over while he's walking like just like this little, you know,
28:57
car just like hits him. You know, the Africa one, like I
29:01
said, I thought, I thought was really creative.
29:03
The poetry one, it's like, it's all of these typical Sesame
29:07
Street lessons and they just, it seemed like maybe it was this,
29:15
this classroom, this little world that was created in this
29:18
classroom that allowed them to really get a little bit a little
29:23
bit creative with it, a little bit like come up with a new way
29:27
to show these things. And, and it makes it, I think it
29:30
is entertaining for adults and for kids.
29:33
I think it hits that sweet spot where you're kind of like, you
29:37
know, the kid can laugh because the guy not got knocked over and
29:42
the, you know, parents appreciate that that someone is
29:45
telling smart Tina to, you know, think through the whole think
29:48
through all of it. You know, like it just I don't
29:50
know. I enjoyed what they did with
29:52
these, even on the feelings ones.
29:54
I thought the the like if you don't cry people don't know
29:57
you're hurt was a really interesting one.
29:59
Yeah, that is. You really did hurt yourself,
30:03
didn't you? Yeah, but why didn't you cry?
30:09
Cry. Man, I'm too cool to cry.
30:13
Well, yeah, I can dig that. But how is anybody going to know
30:17
that you really hurt? They're just going to think that
30:20
you OK, and then they're just going to laugh at you.
30:23
Well, can I go outside now? Yeah, go ahead.
30:33
I was like, that is it's almost it telling people to cry.
30:39
But also there is a very, especially for that time, a very
30:43
like honest, like show your emotions and let people know how
30:49
you really feel in a classroom in which, like I said,
30:53
everybody's trying to play it cool.
30:55
And I think teasing each other is part of that, like trying to
30:58
show their cool and one of each other and the idea of like, no
31:02
man, you got to cry because how are people going to know that
31:05
you're actually hurt? And I was like, huh.
31:08
And then the other one where where he was, he was saying
31:15
like, he's not going to know that he hurt your feelings.
31:17
She's like, he's not going to annoy that he hurt my feelings.
31:20
Like he wouldn't know that because he said something mean
31:23
to me. And they're like, no, you got
31:25
it. Tell him.
31:26
I was like, yeah. So yeah, that's what I
31:28
interesting take. Like you really gotta you gotta
31:31
be authentic and put yourself up there and tell people how you
31:33
feel. But not in a it wasn't done in
31:37
such a kid like way. It was done in a more, I think,
31:43
nuanced way, so I appreciate that.
31:45
And I do think it's super interesting from a like gender
31:48
dynamic standpoint that both the the the one where Susetta was
31:54
hurt by hard head Henry Harris and the one where baby breeze
31:58
was hurt by, you know, really all of the kids.
32:04
It's not saying like it's something like girls need to
32:08
communicate how they feel or boys need to communicate how
32:11
they feel. It's like, no, that's something
32:13
for everybody. We see it happen to Susetta.
32:15
We see it happen to Baby Breeze, you know?
32:18
And again, and like, I think it matters a lot that Baby Breeze
32:21
is sort of framed as like the coolest kid in class.
32:25
Or at least he thinks he's the coolest kid in class.
32:28
I mean, Roosevelt's the coolest kid in class, but Roosevelt's
32:30
also the teacher, so who knows? But oh, and I should just say
32:38
Baby Breeze was voiced by Northern Callaway or, or David
32:43
from Sesame Street. David from Sesame Street, I say
32:47
as if I'm not talking about. It is interesting though,
32:50
because again, like, yeah, you know, the, the the Roosevelt
32:53
Franklin kids are definitely, they come across as older than
32:56
the rest of the Sesame Street Muppets.
32:58
I know you said that it was almost like high school, but
33:01
even if it's not like high school, like they're definitely
33:04
older than like Big Bird is. Yes, yeah, and they're and
33:08
they're responding in ways that are different.
33:10
And also, you know, I did appreciate when, you know, hard
33:13
headed Harry found out he hurt someone's feelings.
33:16
He's like, oh man, I didn't know that.
33:19
I'm sorry. Like he instead of being like,
33:22
oh, she can take it or, you know, like whatever.
33:24
He like also responded in a, in a, in not a almost, not a
33:32
childlike way. It just doesn't feel like
33:34
they're approaching these kids as like the three to five age
33:39
range it looks. It seems as if they're as if
33:42
they're aiming a little higher in some of these conversations.
33:46
Absolutely. You know, I wanted to talk a
33:50
little bit about schools and and intelligence as well, because
33:55
one thing that I thought was really interesting here was
33:58
that, you know, smart Tina is a girl.
34:01
We talk a lot about gender roles on this show is a girl and is
34:06
framed as the the smartest kid in class.
34:10
Even if she's not always right, she is definitely smart Tina.
34:15
She's the one that, if anything, the kids get tired of because
34:18
she knows everything and is constantly telling them that she
34:21
knows everything. So I wanted to do a little bit
34:23
of research into like girls and schooling because anecdotally, I
34:30
feel like I know smart Tina so well.
34:34
I, I, I'm a high school teacher in my regular job and I feel
34:39
like every year I have at least three smart Tinas and then maybe
34:44
at least one or two boy smart Tinas, smart Tonys.
34:51
I guess Chris is honestly the, the, the male form of Tina Smart
34:55
Chris. But 'cause Tina's short for
34:58
Christina, right? You're giving me a look.
35:00
You're giving me a look like I'm speaking crazy talk here.
35:04
I saw Tina. It's just.
35:06
Tina Anyway, smart Tonys and thanks to Tony Whitaker for
35:11
helping with the research on this episode.
35:13
And like every episode being a real smart Tony over there.
35:16
But it was interesting, you know, I was looking at, so a
35:21
study from the University of Illinois that was reported in
35:26
the on the website Global Citizen, but it's previously
35:30
from the University of Illinois that basically said that girls
35:35
tend to not think that they are as smart as boys, girls as young
35:42
as 6 when they're told to think about like what is a smart
35:47
person or a smart student look. Like.
35:50
Tend to think about boys, not girls.
35:55
But it's also interesting and this was this was reported in
35:59
2017, but also interesting was a study from 2014.
36:03
I found doing some research and that's a little older than I
36:06
like to use for my research. It's 11 years old, but that
36:10
found that at least in 2014, girls tended to do better in
36:16
schools. Like girls tended to do better
36:19
in school than boys did. But girls also didn't
36:22
conceptualize themselves as smart, and the same could be
36:27
said for how boys conceptualized girls.
36:30
So I think it's super important that Smart Tina is a girl.
36:35
Although I guess really the smartest one in the class is
36:38
Roosevelt, right? Like.
36:40
Right. But that's important, too.
36:42
And especially, you know, again, that Roosevelt is is black and
36:47
is portrayed as being very smart really matters for for beating,
36:51
you know, certain stereotypes in society that I'm not as much of
36:56
an expert in. What's your take on this as a as
37:01
a parent Drake? I mean, you know, it's, it's
37:06
interesting, it tracks that like girls don't think there is.
37:09
I mean a society is built up to portray men as the powerful ones
37:15
on the smart ones and you know mansplaining comes from that.
37:20
Any meeting you've ever been in where you got shushed or where
37:24
someone talked over you or said your idea 2 minutes later and
37:30
claimed it was their own and everyone just forgot that you
37:32
just said it. Things like that where I think.
37:34
You know, would you believe that that happens to me more?
37:37
It happens to me, You know, starting in like 2021, it
37:41
started happening to me more. And it's like, what changed?
37:46
Could it possibly be that people now read me as a woman whereas
37:50
they didn't prior to 2021? I don't know.
37:53
Anyway, Drake, you were saying? That's shocking that anyone
37:58
perceived as a woman is going to get talked over.
38:01
I mean, it is just how it works. And so I think that is what
38:05
girls are picking up on, even though, of course, you know, I
38:09
don't think boys or girls are necessarily smarter as, you
38:13
know, a gender. I just think there's smarter
38:16
ones in in both of them. I will say my my daughter seems
38:22
to not have picked up on that. What I mean, I remember the day
38:26
she realized that doctors could be guys.
38:29
She just didn't realize she thought they were all women.
38:34
And, and she actually said men can be doctors.
38:37
Your doctor, Your doctor like your doctor, your daughter like
38:41
raised on the mascara with Wonder Woman here, I guess.
38:46
Never. Every doctors, every doctor
38:49
she's ever had was a woman. Every doctor she'd ever seen was
38:52
a woman. And people we know who our
38:55
doctors are women. So she did not know any male
38:57
doctors and just thought that that was interesting that a guy
39:00
could be a doctor. And I think in other ways too,
39:03
when, when I've brought up this conversation, you know, I, I
39:08
happen to work in the human rights field.
39:09
And so sometimes conversations will come up about a place like
39:13
Afghanistan and the idea that, you know, women are not allowed
39:17
to go to school there. And, you know, how does she feel
39:20
about that or, or what would she think of that?
39:22
And she, you know, and a lot of questions about why, Well, why
39:26
would that be? And, and the idea that, well,
39:29
women are, you know, men are perceived as as smarter or
39:32
whatever. She's like, continually shocked
39:34
by that idea. So I don't feel necessarily that
39:37
they're that it's as strong as it used to be, or maybe not
39:40
strong in like where we live or, you know, in the way that we're
39:46
raising her. She's also an only child, you
39:48
know, So she for all she knows, she's the center of the
39:51
universe. But I do think that that
39:55
certainly it's, it is not surprising to me at all that
40:01
there's any study. It could have come out
40:03
yesterday, it could have come out 50 years ago.
40:05
I feel like our, our society hasn't really changed that much.
40:09
Although maybe my daughter gives me hope that it is and and that
40:13
there is no girls are smarter than boys or boys are smarter
40:16
than girls at all. It's just you're all kids and
40:20
you all. You know, should have capacity
40:22
to learn and I think newer studies coming out and I don't
40:25
know how far we want to get into this, but are showing that, you
40:29
know, with with the way schools are being set up in which
40:33
kindergarten now has kids doing much more learning and less
40:37
play. And the play based is caters
40:42
more to how boys learn. And up until a certain age,
40:47
having things more play based at younger years really helped the
40:52
boys sort of catered to how they learn better and then clicked
40:56
over when, you know, as kids got older and sudden dust and stuff,
41:00
girls are in general, it's easier for them to sit still
41:05
earlier and kind of focus earlier than it is for boys.
41:08
And so now it is catering and it is creating a gender gap that is
41:12
less good for boys. And so maybe that whole
41:14
impression is going to change over time, but I don't think
41:18
that that is a good way to go about it.
41:20
I think we should have learning that caters to all children and
41:24
ideally more play based in general.
41:27
So much of this also just like, you know, as a, as a trans woman
41:31
who's very involved in like trans and gender related
41:35
advocacy work, when I'm not at my actual job or at my second
41:40
actual job, which is podcasting about rodeo, Rosie the Sesame
41:45
Street cowgirl, I do a lot of work with that.
41:49
And there's a lot that I wonder too about like where these kind
41:52
of gender differences come from. Because frankly, I, I don't
41:57
think a lot of the data is there for it being something that is
42:00
biological in nature. I think a lot of it comes from
42:05
society and culture and things like that.
42:08
But it's something that unfortunately there isn't a lot
42:10
of studies on, again, because it's, it's sort of difficult to
42:15
find a sample size for that. And now we're getting really
42:18
away from Smart Tina. You know, I've met your daughter
42:22
and, and, and I say this with a lot of love, your daughter has
42:25
some Smart Tina energy. You know she's.
42:28
Got smart Tina energy she she has something to say she.
42:31
Really. Does she really?
42:33
Does she doesn't mind voicing an opinion?
42:36
Yep. Any any other thoughts on these
42:40
these these two characters or any of the rest of Roosevelt
42:43
Franklin's squad before we move to our other little silo?
42:47
Oh man, can we stay in Rose? I don't necessarily have
42:50
anything to say. I'm just not so eager to go to
42:53
the total box. But I, you know what?
42:56
I would I, I think I'll look up more clips actually.
43:01
I really, I enjoyed these and I appreciate the debate, you know,
43:05
and the controversy around them. I'm, I'm curious to know more
43:07
about that. But just as as an interesting
43:10
learning tool and a different voice and way of showing voice
43:15
for kids on the show. Because you know, there, it's,
43:19
it's limited sometimes the the characters, how kids are
43:26
recurring kids are portrayed. And, and I liked, I liked having
43:30
this sort of range of voices that this classroom brought or a
43:33
different vibe. I guess it's a different vibe
43:35
more than voices but. Couple of things actually, so we
43:38
don't have to move to to our next silo just yet because I
43:41
realized I had two more things that I wanted to discuss in our
43:44
notes. And one of them was I sent you
43:47
some scans of picture books. There's not a ton to say about
43:51
picture books. Smart Susetta Something has
43:54
never appeared in a picture book, and Smart Tina appeared
43:58
mostly in the year 1975 and then stopped.
44:04
And just to get a sense of how little it seems like the Sesame
44:08
Street team cared about keeping consistency there.
44:12
She is called Sweet Tina in the only book that that gives her a
44:17
name. So Sweet Tina.
44:20
I'm saying it like that to indicate that it's all one word
44:23
and there's only one T. So it is Sweet Tina.
44:27
Like a sweetum, but a sweet Tina, Yeah.
44:29
Very sweet. Exactly.
44:31
Exactly. And the second thing I wanted to
44:33
just point out for folks at home is there's one other place, you
44:37
know how I said that they don't really interact with The Maine,
44:41
Maine Muppet cast, but there's one place, one place where they
44:45
do besides the head ball sketches where they don't
44:48
actually interact with the cast. They the cast just sits in the
44:50
stands and watches them play head ball.
44:53
Head ball is Roosevelt Franklin's signature sport where
44:57
you have to answer basic like what should you do if your ball
45:01
rolls into the street? And that's how you score goals
45:04
in head ball. Wow, that is way better than I
45:08
pictured someone's disembodied head being.
45:10
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got to use your.
45:13
You got to use. I'm actually very, very glad you
45:15
clarified for them. And they actually.
45:17
Wow, they went real far on getting away from the Sesame
45:20
Street bed. They they used to, they used to.
45:23
I mean, there was always an establishing shot of where the
45:27
Mets played. What was it before it was Citi
45:29
Field? It was the Mets.
45:31
I do know the Mets. Yeah.
45:32
What was the name of their old stadium?
45:34
I don't. OK, well, so.
45:37
Yeah. So lots, lots to say about
45:39
headball. But the other the really only
45:41
place where the characters actually interacted with the
45:45
main Muppet gang was on the Merry Christmas from Sesame
45:48
Street album. Both Smart Tina and Hard Head
45:52
Henry Harris have verses in the original 19701975 version of The
45:59
12 Days of Christmas. Bizarrely, Loretta Long voices
46:05
Smart Tina on that. So she's just Susetta something
46:09
but referred to as Smart Tina on.
46:12
The 10th day of Christmas my true love said to me. 10 wind up
46:17
rabbits, 9 lbs of bird seed. And Roscoe Orman is hard head
46:22
Henry Harris there so we we do know that.
46:25
And then when that album was re released in 1994, they dubbed
46:29
over them with Elmo and Telly. Does does Elmo say what is it
46:36
the line that's a that's a jive gift to go or?
46:39
Something no, no, Elmo does not say.
46:41
What a jive gift. I guess you have heard this
46:44
particular album because you seem to know exactly the What a
46:48
jive gift. It's just such a, it's such a
46:50
unique line. And also because I didn't know
46:52
hard headed Harry. I was like, who?
46:54
Who's that guy? Right, exactly, because how
46:57
would you know? That's not Harry Monster.
47:01
No, but they are sighted on the back of the album as being those
47:05
two characters. That is the only album where
47:08
those characters appear. That's it.
47:12
There's not much to say about them.
47:16
So the twiddle bugs. Drake, you weren't really
47:18
familiar with the twiddle bugs. Let's start with the good things
47:22
about the twiddle bugs. I love love their name.
47:27
OK, you love their name. You.
47:29
Love their name? Adorable.
47:31
And what about that little carton that's.
47:33
Just that's what I was about to say is I want to build a little
47:37
terrarium where I put a model of the twiddlebugs cottage.
47:42
I want to, I want to try to make a carton, you know, get all of
47:46
the get an empty milk carton, wash it out, get some burnt
47:50
matches and a string to tie between 2 nails and old pencils
47:56
to use as shingles and a little matchbox to use as a car.
48:02
And put it in a little fake terrarium that I can keep here
48:04
in my office with all my other muppet muppet stuff around me
48:08
that. As long as they don't speak.
48:10
As long as they don't speak well.
48:11
That's a great thing that you're getting to.
48:14
You know, the thing about the twiddle box is the twiddle bugs
48:18
appeared a lot in Sesame Street stuff in the sense that, like,
48:23
if you pick up a lot of Sesame Street books, the artists will
48:28
have drawn little twiddle bugs, you know, in the background.
48:31
And now that you know them, you're going to see them in
48:33
stuff. They're in a lot of things.
48:36
You know, even this poster behind me, you can vaguely see
48:39
there's a green twiddle bug between Snuffy and Grover over
48:42
there. It's a little hard to see on
48:45
Zoom, and those of you at home can't see it at all.
48:49
But the twiddle bug family who we meet in let me get the the
48:55
year of their debut, who we meet in 1974.
49:01
That's right, same year that Twiddle bug family has only
49:04
appeared once in book form, and it was one coloring book.
49:08
There has never been a book about that family in particular.
49:12
In fact, I was confident there was.
49:14
I was like, I grew up with a book that had Tina Twiddlebug in
49:18
it, and I was all ready to talk about Tina Twiddlebug in the
49:22
book. Unfortunately, that book does
49:25
exist. It's called When Oscar Was a
49:28
Baby Grouch when Oscar was a little Grouch.
49:31
The problem is that character Tina Twiddlebug is a different
49:35
character with no relation to this Tina Twiddlebug, making
49:39
there be 3 Tina's, two of which are named Tina Twiddlebug but
49:45
are completely different characters.
49:47
It is it is. The problem with the Twiddlebugs
49:50
is they talk. Guess what?
49:52
Daddy has brought home one of you.
49:54
Brought home Bobby. A new postage stamp picture to
49:58
hang on our wall. I just love to hang postage
50:02
stamp pictures on the wall. Good.
50:05
Oh, it is and they don't. I mean they talk and they say
50:08
nothing or ridiculousness. I I.
50:12
Why don't you describe these sketches a little bit for the
50:14
folks at home, Drake? My my hope, and I know this is
50:19
terrible, was that like a big old foot would come down and
50:24
kind of smash the twiddle buttons.
50:28
Sorry, they are adorable. Their name is cute, their house.
50:31
I think they have buttons for the wheels on my car, but like I
50:36
what I so they they seem to be, you know, trying to show a
50:44
lesson by like being total idiots.
50:48
But I just feel like it's done. It's done so much better in so
50:53
many other ways on Sesame Street that that I don't get why this
51:00
needs to happen. I mean, the Yip yips.
51:02
They are someone who don't understand things, but they are
51:05
creative and interesting and I could watch them all day.
51:08
There was Grover. Grover, Mr. Noodle.
51:13
Yeah, which obviously Mr. Noodle didn't exist at this point in
51:16
1970. Two, no, but but those those two
51:20
guys from the buddy and Jim, is that like duo who couldn't hang
51:25
a painting or whatever I mean? And Larry and Phyllis was the
51:28
was the other the other duo? Yeah.
51:30
So I mean there are ways to do this, that is that is creative
51:36
and makes you you feel smart. I felt Dumber after watching, I
51:43
did not feel smarter and I have to say my least favorite was the
51:49
fire alarm because the only thing more annoying that a fire
51:53
alarm sound going off is a twiddle bug talking over a
51:56
firearm. So you might have noticed on the
51:59
notes that I sent you, I did write down.
52:02
Great, now I have to hear them and a smoke alarm it.
52:07
Has to be the worst audio moment.
52:16
Yes, and no one is testing it. Interesting fact.
52:26
So obviously the Twiddlebugs voices are are speed up right?
52:31
I should say Tessie Twiddlebug is the mother.
52:35
She is performed by Frank Oz and Tina Twiddlebug is the daughter.
52:42
She is performed by Jerry Nelson.
52:44
And then there is also Thomas Twiddlebug who is performed by
52:48
Jim Henson and Timmy Twiddlebug who is performed by Richard
52:53
Hunt. Although there's a couple
52:55
differences, some of the sketches, Tina and Timmy are
52:59
switched. Some of the sketches, I'm not
53:00
going to get into it. It's not important.
53:03
You can look it up on Muppet Wiki.
53:04
Enjoy. Although I still need.
53:08
To add an article on the other Tina Twiddle bug, although it'll
53:11
probably be there by the time this episode is out anyway,
53:15
these were speed up in post as you can.
53:20
As you can probably guess, what would happen is the performers
53:25
would speak as slowly as possible when recording and then
53:31
the sketches would be speed up. According to Muppet wiki, the
53:36
reason the Twiddlebugs have this very deliberate Annunciation and
53:41
like speak so speak so deliberately like in complete
53:45
sentences like why yes my darling daughter, we need to
53:51
flip the stamp around is because that was the only way the
53:55
dialogue could be understood when it was speed up.
53:59
Now I bring this up Drake, because in the fire detector
54:02
smoke detector sketch you talked about, that was the only time
54:07
they tried speeding up the voices live on set using voice
54:14
modulating equipment. And you can tell that the
54:19
Twiddlebugs voices are even more annoying in that sketch.
54:24
You know what I have to say the other really disgusting, not
54:27
disgusting, but terrible audio moment and what it was
54:30
disgusting is the licking of that stamp.
54:33
All the whole family. I yeah, I don't know that I
54:45
noticed I think I was perpetually annoyed by them.
54:47
I don't know that I noticed that the that the sound was much
54:50
different in the smoke detector when I just found it equally as
54:55
frustrating. And I also just had a sense of
54:57
like, who is this for exactly? I'm it's definitely not for me,
55:03
but I don't know even that. I think it would maybe be fairly
55:08
innocuous to a kid, but I don't really feel like they're going
55:11
to embrace it. I remember loving the twiddle
55:16
bugs as a kid. It is.
55:18
Worth it is worth noting. That.
55:20
Then it's Rebecca as a child. Most of what I loved was their
55:23
appearances in books and stuff though, again because.
55:26
They weren't speaking. That's what I remember.
55:29
I the only sketch I remember was the postage stamp one.
55:34
And it's worth noting that these sketches were pretty few and far
55:38
between. You know, literally the first
55:42
one, 1974, the second one, 1975, and then the third one.
55:48
And I didn't send you all of them, thank goodness.
55:50
But the third one wasn't until 1980.
55:54
So literally it was like one in 1974, one in 1975, one in 1980.
55:59
So I should say for those folks listening along at home, we
56:04
usually, I've been capping things at like 1979 this season,
56:08
but for the sake of having things to talk about with the
56:11
twiddle bugs, we went all the way up to the smoke detector.
56:14
One was 1987, so not too long before Jim Henson passes.
56:22
Like we're getting real close to to sort of the end of the
56:26
classic era of The Muppets. The place where I called it off
56:30
for this was when the Twiddlebugs are replaced with
56:33
the animated Twiddlebugs because Drake.
56:38
These characters kept appearing in in season 37, which would
56:46
have started in 2005. In season 37, they introduced
56:51
CGI animated twiddle bugs who appeared in a number of
56:56
sketches. There were five CGI animated
56:59
Twiddle Bug sketches that you can enjoy.
57:03
Oh, and I will Becca, I will. I would say I would say my
57:07
recommended viewing would be one Twiddlebug sketch every two to
57:16
three to five years. I think that feels on track for
57:20
what I would recommend. My Recommended My recommended
57:24
viewing is the book The Twiddlebugs Dream House, which
57:28
you can access on the Internet Archive, which is a wonderful
57:31
book picture book with photos of a miniature house and clay like
57:39
models of the Twiddlebugs. It's super cute.
57:43
It's one of my one of my favorites.
57:45
It is it is adorable, but again, it does not feature these
57:50
twiddlebugs. Now I wanted to talk about the
57:54
twiddlebugs when I when I scheduled this episode, I wanted
57:57
to talk about the twiddlebugs as individuals.
58:00
And in my memory, I was like, well, Tina Twiddlebugs, the
58:03
smart Twiddlebug, because I remembered.
58:06
I remembered the stamp one where Thomas goes.
58:11
My daughter, the Super brain. But Tina isn't the smart one.
58:15
It's. Going to be hard pressed to find
58:17
a smart one Becca. I don't feel like I can identify
58:24
a difference between the twiddle bugs.
58:27
I'm not even certain a lot of the time who's talking.
58:31
It doesn't matter. And I've been in this Muppet.
58:33
I've been in this Muppet game for a long time, folks.
58:37
I would not have known that Tina Twiddlebug was Jerry Nelson.
58:41
I don't really think they made mud.
58:43
I mean a slight attempt to make them a little bit different, but
58:48
I don't, I don't think it mattered for the storylines,
58:51
certainly if you can call them that.
58:53
And like, I don't, I don't think it mattered.
58:59
I don't think it matters. I don't think they cared, as you
59:03
know, anymore than we do, actually, except whoever built
59:07
them, whoever created that set, they cared.
59:11
And and I appreciate them, but yeah, no.
59:15
And I like, I like the idea in theory.
59:18
You know, kids absolutely love playing with scale like that.
59:23
Like, you know what if, what if you know?
59:25
Little things. Yeah, little things and like,
59:28
and like Ernie is big. Like I used to love stuff like
59:32
that. You know, you, you had like the
59:34
littles and the borrowers and, and, and the secret world of
59:38
Arietti and all of these things. And it's definitely playing
59:41
around in that, that toolbox. And that's why I'm like, the
59:44
best place to look for the twiddlebugs is in books.
59:47
But you are not going to see Thomas and Timmy and Tina and
59:51
Tessie in in books. But you will see cute small
59:56
things in books and I like that. Yeah, and you don't have to hear
1:00:00
them. You don't have.
1:00:01
Your own voice and whatever you make will be better.
1:00:04
Hey, it's me, the twiddlebug. Yeah, this is how I talk.
1:00:09
How's it going? That would be an amazing
1:00:12
twiddlebug. Especially if it's like the
1:00:17
Little. Especially if it's Tina.
1:00:20
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
1:00:23
The only other thing that I want to say about Twiddlebugs, unless
1:00:26
you've got something to say, is in their first two appearances,
1:00:30
the Twiddlebugs were not small. I did not send you their first
1:00:33
appearances. They first appeared in two
1:00:35
sketches from 1971 where they were just regular anything
1:00:39
Muppet size. An interesting fact, they first
1:00:43
debut in the same sketch that introduced Prairie Dawn herself.
1:00:48
Oh well, that would have been a better sketch to watch.
1:00:51
Yeah, but it's not, it's not the Twiddlebug family.
1:00:54
They're different. Like again, it, it's not Tina
1:00:57
and Tessie and, and I really wanted to talk when I wrote
1:01:00
these notes, I was like, well, I got to talk about Tina and, and
1:01:04
Tessie Drake, do you have any, any, any last thoughts on Tina
1:01:08
and Tessie? What do you what do you think
1:01:10
they're doing now? You know the lifespan of a total
1:01:14
bag and I know in a reckless. No.
1:01:17
Oh no. It's probably especially
1:01:20
especially these ones because they just can't even hang a
1:01:23
stamp so or are trying to hang a stamp which makes no sense
1:01:27
either. So maybe.
1:01:29
George Washington like to stand on his head, Drake maybe.
1:01:32
George Washington, like I. Actually hear this, I hear, I
1:01:35
hear this a lot. And I had never had proof to the
1:01:37
total bugs. I have to say, actually, I think
1:01:39
my favorite part of the total bugs is Ernie.
1:01:42
He just cares about them so much and he's, well, I looks very
1:01:46
cute in the window. You get a, you get a different.
1:01:49
Sense of Ernie from them and I I, I like I like that I, I like
1:01:54
Ernie it's a more gentle Ernie and and I like.
1:01:59
Junior Gorgon is radish. Yes.
1:02:01
It's. Like this caring, caring, like
1:02:05
person coming out to take care of these little turtle bags and
1:02:09
hopes he doesn't, you know, hurt them and hopes they're doing OK.
1:02:13
And I just I I love Ernie's vision for the Twiddlebugs more
1:02:16
than I love the reality of the Twiddlebugs.
1:02:19
But sadly, this is not an Ernie podcast.
1:02:22
No, sadly. Drake I think we've made it
1:02:25
clear why the Twiddlebugs didn't stick around or become main
1:02:30
characters or anything like that.
1:02:32
And you know, unfortunately, while I'd love to do more
1:02:35
research into the exact situation that led to to Tina
1:02:40
and Susetta not sticking around, it seems like there were things
1:02:44
sort of bigger than the show itself.
1:02:46
So I feel like for this episode, why we don't see much of these
1:02:50
get these characters anymore. It's kind of self apparent.
1:02:53
Drake Where can people, where can people find you if you want
1:02:57
to be found? You know, I have some articles
1:03:01
on Top Pigs, so I hope that that people will read those and I
1:03:05
hang out in the discord sometimes as well.
1:03:07
Yeah, it's it's always, it's always great.
1:03:09
Thank you so much. I'm, I'm sorry you you couldn't
1:03:12
talk about better characters. Maybe, maybe next season I'll
1:03:16
have you back on to talk about characters who you like.
1:03:19
Would love to be back anytime and I did like Roosevelt the
1:03:22
Franklin Roosevelt. That's true.
1:03:24
That's true. That's true.
1:03:24
You did. You did.
1:03:35
Truly, the tales of Roosevelt's friends and the Twiddlebugs are
1:03:38
some of the strangest stories we've seen so far.
1:03:42
Never meant to be main characters, Smart Tina was
1:03:46
written off the show for being too controversial.
1:03:49
Tina Twiddlebug stuck around until very recently, but with
1:03:52
sparse appearances and no transmedia footprint.
1:03:57
But around the same time, Sesame introduced a character whose
1:04:00
legacy was even stranger. A character who appeared on the
1:04:04
show fewer than 10 times, including in sketches recycled
1:04:10
for future episodes. A character who never once
1:04:14
appeared on an album, but who had a featured role in the
1:04:18
Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. And a character who stuck around
1:04:22
in picture books through 1992. Wahoo had a partners, Oh my God,
1:04:30
Rosie's my name and being a cowgirl's my girl.
1:04:33
Next week on a Prairie Dawn Companion, saddle up for the
1:04:39
Ballad of Rodeo, Rosie, I'll be seeing y'all at the Hootenanny.
1:04:44
I really. Am quite.
1:04:50
Retarded a Prairie Dawn Companion is a production of
1:04:53
toughpigs.com. It is written, produced, edited
1:04:57
and hosted by Becca Petunia, an executive produced by the Tough
1:05:01
Pigs Muppet Fan podcast executive producer Johannes.
1:05:06
Thanks to Scott Hanson, Shane Keating, Tony Whitaker and the
1:05:10
Whole Muppet Wiki team for helping me with research.
1:05:14
The book St. Gang by Michael Davis was also
1:05:17
indispensable. Thanks to Katie Lynn Miller,
1:05:20
Mikhail Richardson, and Eli Lee for help with script revisions.
1:05:25
Follow Tough Pigs on social media.
1:05:28
You can support us on Patreon or by buying a T-shirt on our tea
1:05:31
public. Join the conversation on the
1:05:34
Tough Pigs discord. You can support a Prairie Dawn
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companion and lots of other podcasts too by giving Muppet
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fan podcasts with toughpigs.com five stars on your podcast
1:05:48
reviewing app of choice. Come on everybody, help me lick
1:06:04
the stamp. Yes, here we are.
1:06:09
This stamp isn't too yummy. Keep.
1:06:12
Licking. Come on, children.
1:06:15
Yeah, all done.