Latest / Ministry Minded / Grief and Glory in Light of the New Heaven and New Earth with Jordan Moody

Transcript

Grief and Glory in Light of the New Heaven and New Earth with Jordan Moody · Ministry Minded

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
• 0:15
  a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
• 0:17
  in our messy
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: ministries.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
• 0:20
  I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church in
• 0:24
  Pax Sinus,
• 0:25
  Pennsylvania.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: And today I'm delighted to have on this episode...
• 0:29
  My friend in ministry and in life,
• 0:31
  my former college classmate,
• 0:33
  Jordan Moody.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Jordan pastors Hope Fellowship Church in Jaffray, New Hampshire.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: He is also the author of a brand new book called Heaven and Earth,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Awakening Hope for Eternity with God.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I am just so thrilled to have him on.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is his third appearance on the show,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: which I kind of joke about,
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: but it's always good to talk with him.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: He's a dear friend.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: He's a good pastor and he's a good author, a deep thinker.
• 0:57
  And we get to chat a lot about what it means to sort of have
• 1:02
  this heavenly mindset
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: and this heavenly hope as Christians,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: as church leaders,
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: as just people living in.
• 1:09
  in this place called earth that is sometimes fraught with bad
• 1:14
  news and feelings of
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: ill will and all the darkness that surrounds us?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like to have the certainty of eternity?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: What does it mean to have this hope of heaven?
• 1:27
  So we talk about that and we talk about this book and how that
• 1:30
  book has shaped and
• 1:33
  informed and how it has emerged out of Jordan's own life and
• 1:37
  some of the things
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: that he's been through as a pastor,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: as a dad,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: as a father,
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: as a son.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really excited for this episode.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's always a joy to chat with Jordan,
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: have him on and talk about some of these deep things,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: talk about theology and pastoral ministry and life and church.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So enjoy this episode,
• 1:53
  enjoy this conversation about heaven and earth and why we as
• 1:58
  Christians can be so
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: certain about
• 2:00
  of the hope that we have in jesus enjoy blessings jordan uh it
• 2:05
  is so good to have
• 2:05
  you back on the show uh as i was just telling you just a minute
• 2:08
  ago um you were
• 2:10
  episode four then you were episode 55 and now you're episode
• 2:13
  155 so there's been a
• 2:15
  lot of life that's happened in between your last appearance but
• 2:18
  this is your third
• 2:18
  appearance this is like snl so the more you get on like the
• 2:21
  more you come on like
• 2:23
  the more perks you get i don't know what they are yet but we'll
• 2:25
  figure that out um
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: but i'm so happy you're here man uh how you doing
• 2:29
  this i'm doing really good thank you for having me yeah i do i
• 2:33
  you know that's that
• 2:34
  is why i came on your podcast because i was thinking you know
• 2:37
  this is a lot like
• 2:38
  snl so that that's exactly right you know i just yeah i get
• 2:41
  like a monologue right
• 2:42
  now and i'm i'm i'm kind of confused where's the live audience
• 2:45
  that cheers on my
• 2:46
  bad jokes and stuff that would be great i need to work on the
• 2:49
  live audience part
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: and sorry for the pretentiousness of
• 2:52
  comparing my podcast to snl but anyways um i'm i'm just really
• 2:56
  happy to be talking
• 2:57
  to you man and uh it's always good to i i don't know why but
• 3:01
  we're going to talk
• 3:02
  about your book which is amazing it looks beautiful um but
• 3:05
  every single time i saw
• 3:06
  you post stuff of your book i just couldn't help but think uh
• 3:10
  about our days back
• 3:11
  in college and just i couldn't help but think of that meme with
• 3:15
  paul red where he's
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: like look at us
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Look at us.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Who would have thought?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I just had that thought running through my head all the time.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: Look at us, man.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Look at us.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it is really funny.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: We used to sit next to each other in classes in college together.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: And now...
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're, yeah, we're writing books and pastoring churches.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, who let us do these things?
• 3:38
  I mean,
• 3:38
  I keep thinking like someone's going to show up and be like,
• 3:40
  okay,
• 3:41
  the game is over.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: We found out who you are,
• 3:44
  that you really don't know what you're talking about or what
• 3:46
  you're really doing.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're just pretending.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then I realized that as you become an adult,
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: that voice is in a lot of people's heads that,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: you're kind of not really an adult yet.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm hoping one day I'll...
• 4:00
  rid myself of that and have a certain level of self-confidence
• 4:04
  where I don't doubt
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: myself constantly.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: But it has been really amazing.
• 4:07
  And you look back at God's grace through all these things and
• 4:11
  all the different
• 4:11
  things in life that he's brought us through and just his
• 4:14
  patience on a daily basis
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: for us.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then as you mature in Christ and grow up in him and you're given more
• 4:22
  opportunities to minister and serve people and preach the
• 4:26
  gospel and then write
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: books and put it in a medium,
• 4:30
  in a form of that people can have something that helps and
• 4:33
  ministers to them.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_02: it's just an honor too at the end of the day where,
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: I look back at myself as a silly,
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: ridiculous...
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: know-it-all college student.
• 4:42
  And then just thinking through just all that God has graciously
• 4:48
  walked me through
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: and taught me and humbled me.
• 4:50
  And yeah,
• 4:51
  so it's an honor to be here today from episode four to 55 to
• 4:56
  155.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: But just to see that,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: even that small timeline and all that God has done,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: just praising him for that.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, thank you for having me.
• 5:04
  It's a joy to be here and I just enjoy talking about this kind
• 5:07
  of stuff with people.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully it blesses others.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, brother.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so let's kind of,
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: before we get into your book,
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk a little bit about that,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: just like timeline stuff,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: but also like,
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: it seems like you can,
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was just thinking about this recently,
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: just because we entered a new year,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: what God has led myself through,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: my family through,
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: my church through,
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: and just thinking about that.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't feel like you have to introduce yourself again,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: but how have,
• 5:35
  what are some things that have been really pressed home for you
• 5:39
  as a pastor and
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: as a dad,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: as a,
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: as a husband,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: as a leader in ministry,
• 5:44
  like you and I are both in the trenches of what we could say is
• 5:48
  rural church
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: ministry.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're in not like huge metroplexes.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, uh, and we're doing kingdom work if you want to say it like that.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: But like,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: what are some things that God has been pressing,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: impressing upon you,
• 6:00
  especially in the last couple of years or however long it's
• 6:04
  been since you've been
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: on?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can give a brief run through.
• 6:08
  And I mean,
• 6:09
  I pastor here in Jaffrey,
• 6:10
  New Hampshire,
• 6:11
  Hope Fellowship Church.
• 6:13
  And this past June was my 10th year pastoring this church as my
• 6:17
  first pastorate and
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: still pastoring here.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: They haven't gotten rid of me yet.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: So that's been a real blessing.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: And in that time,
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: I've kind of grew up in New England,
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: went away for school,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: but came back here and pastoring in this region,
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: raising my kids in the same town that I grew up in,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: which is crazy.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: Never expected to do that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had four children now.
• 6:39
  So a 10-year-old daughter and a 7-year-old daughter and a
• 6:42
  4-year-old son and now a
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: 4-month-old son right now.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Conrad is his name.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's a really busy house,
• 6:49
  like four kids under the age of 10 and pastoring a growing
• 6:53
  church and writing a
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: book.
• 6:55
  And so,
• 6:56
  yeah,
• 6:56
  I feel there are times when ministry is just an absolute joy.
• 6:59
  And then other times I'm just feeling like I'm trying to
• 7:02
  survive,
• 7:02
  you know?
• 7:03
  And so God has been teaching me a lot about just patience and
• 7:08
  rest recently,
• 7:09
  just trying to find
• 7:11
  real rest in the busyness of life as I'm in my mid-30s trying
• 7:18
  to figure out how to
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: be a father,
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: how to be a pastor,
• 7:21
  how to be an author and do the things that I have ambition for
• 7:24
  and excitement for,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: but also not lose my soul in the process of just trying to pursue things,
• 7:30
  but really actually honor God in the way I'm living and leading
• 7:33
  and preaching and
• 7:35
  also loving my wife and my family of wanting to make sure that
• 7:38
  they're the central
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: aspect of it.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's a little like what God's been teaching me of trying to,
• 7:43
  I even preached on Sabbath rest recently of trying to find
• 7:46
  times where I can carve
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: away and truly find rest and renewal.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then our church right now is thriving, growing.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: We have a building project we're starting right now.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: We're adding on a new sanctuary to our facility currently to expand.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's extremely exciting,
• 8:03
  but also a little bit overwhelming as we have other needs in
• 8:07
  the church and things
• 8:08
  are going on and there never seems to be enough of help or
• 8:12
  whatever as God is
• 8:13
  always just seemingly at these stages growing and things are
• 8:18
  thriving and we're
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: trying to keep up with what he's doing.
• 8:22
  And yet also find that it's not all about us just trying to do
• 8:25
  everything.
• 8:25
  It's finding being able to rest in him that he's going to
• 8:29
  provide and he's enough.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: He is the good shepherd.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: And when I come to him, I have no lack.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: I have no wants.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: So trying to rest in those things and balance that.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think most people could probably resonate with that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: But as a pastor, that's a little bit of what I'm facing these days.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been good.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a blessing, but also a bit of a struggle sometimes as well.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: You've mentioned the word patience a couple times,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: and that's something that always stands out to me,
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: especially when I'm reading the Old Testament.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right now,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: my current sermon series is walking through the story of the Exodus,
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: and just thinking about that,
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: but even just more than that,
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: you can kind of,
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'll say it this way,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's not often we think about patience,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: but actually,
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: that's kind of like
• 9:20
  God's modus operandi throughout the whole body of work that's
• 9:26
  known as the Bible.
• 9:27
  And maybe we can say that's his whole mode of operation in
• 9:30
  terms of our entire lives.
• 9:32
  It's like this unending patience,
• 9:34
  like the King James would call it long suffering.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: But talk about some of the ways that
• 9:42
  you've either experienced or you feel like God is showing you
• 9:46
  just how patient he
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: is with you,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: with your church,
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: or however God has kind of impressed that upon you recently.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: patience is a cool word there in some ways,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: though,
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: the classic,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really want to ask for patience,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: but,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: I need it when I need it,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: kind of the same thing as like trials and suffering,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: But we're in Genesis right now, and our
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: our sermon series at our church too.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll be like Tower of Babel this coming Sunday.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of truths in that,
• 10:17
  especially in the Genesis narrative of the kind of pattern and
• 10:21
  cycle that keeps
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: repeating itself of sin that Genesis 3 to then Cain and Abel
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: and then to Noah,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: and then you think,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: Noah's going to be a fresh start,
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: and then sin is just the same,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: and it kind of pattern repeats itself,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Tower of Babel,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: and God is just so patient and long-suffering with the people,
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: yet through it all,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: his faithfulness and his grace,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: is just this thread that consistently runs through the scripture,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: and as you're in Exodus,
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: and then the people are in the wilderness wandering around,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: right,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: and he's still patient with them,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: and Moses intercedes,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: and
• 10:56
  You're always seeing this sense of where God is justified in so
• 11:00
  many of his
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: actions,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: and yet he is so gracious and loving and kind and merciful and patient.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I've just been impressed upon that recently.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_02: Just,
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: like you said,
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: in the Old Testament,
• 11:12
  seeing God's character come out and seeing his patience and
• 11:15
  long-suffering for
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: mankind and just my own failures and lack of ability to be able to
• 11:22
  feel worthy to deserve of this grace and for him to be able to
• 11:26
  consistently just
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: display that for me.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: I just,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think about even as a father and as a husband and as a pastor and just,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: just the challenges that I face and just thinking,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: me learning now with four kids,
• 11:42
  learning how to be patient with them and give them second
• 11:45
  chances has taught me a
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: lot about my Heavenly Father as about
• 11:49
  his patience with me you know like i i give my give you one
• 11:55
  chance you one mistake
• 11:56
  and now you're in trouble and it's like wow like why am i like
• 11:59
  that with my own
• 12:00
  four-year-old son who can tend to be the crazy man in the
• 12:04
  household causing all
• 12:05
  that like if something's wrong or messed up whose problem you
• 12:08
  know he's usually
• 12:09
  blamed he's the four-year-old boy in the household um and and
• 12:13
  so thinking about the
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: way
• 12:15
  God is a good father and the way how he lovingly desires to
• 12:20
  give us good gifts and
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: to be patient not only with my own children,
• 12:25
  but be patient with myself that I'm still growing and maturing
• 12:28
  and sometimes just
• 12:30
  taking it one day at a time instead of trying to expect that
• 12:34
  I've got it all
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: figured out.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just in my 30s and still growing and learning.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: So thankful for his patience with me in that.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: and I think,
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: it's not breaking new ground to say this,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: it is so fascinating to,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: when you look at your,
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: your role as a dad,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: as a father,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: as you interact with your kids,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: and just how much that is,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: sometimes an inverse mirror of how God interacts with us,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: with his sons and daughters,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: you kind of relate that story with your son,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: but just,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I can remember and see kind of all these instances where I'm like,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: disciplining or correcting some of my kids and then they,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: break,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: we're done.
• 13:20
  We let them go and then they like go right back to the thing
• 13:23
  that we just disciplined them on.
• 13:25
  And like thinking about how irksome that is for me as a dad and
• 13:28
  then thinking like,
• 13:29
  that's essentially what happens all the time with our heavenly
• 13:33
  father and us.
• 13:34
  And the,
• 13:35
  to think that he,
• 13:37
  he never grows weary or frustrated or exasperated.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like he, that, that's not a part of God's character or nature.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 13:47
  he he gets maybe he's disappointed in the ways in which we fail
• 13:51
  but he's not
• 13:51
  exasperated when we have to keep coming back to him um after
• 13:55
  we've tested and tried
• 13:56
  his patience and what a thought that is um and what what an
• 14:00
  amazing and this is the
• 14:02
  reason why i i love this theme of patience because only it's
• 14:06
  been coming up a lot
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: as i've been reading exodus and whatnot but like
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's this vernacular,
• 14:13
  this colloquial understanding of the Old Testament that the God
• 14:17
  of the Old
• 14:17
  Testament is this grumpy old guy with a beard who lives in
• 14:21
  heaven and he wants
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: everyone to get off his lawn.
• 14:23
  And then Jesus comes along and he's the nice guy who wants to
• 14:26
  bring everyone and
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: welcome them with grace.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, where's the grace in the Old Testament?
• 14:31
  Well,
• 14:31
  the grace in the Old Testament is the fact that God is so
• 14:33
  unendingly patient.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: with people who keep testing his patience with,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: and like,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting ready to preach,
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: this Sunday on the scene at the end of Exodus 15,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: where,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: the,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: the people of Israel come tomorrow and there's no water.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when they find water, it's bitter water.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, what are we going to do?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: What are we going to drink?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's literally 72 hours after, like this is 72 hours earlier, um,
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: They were walking across the Red Sea on dry ground.
• 15:05
  Just the patience God has with people that fail and get
• 15:12
  frustrated and get frazzled so easily.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the grace of it all.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the grace is.
• 15:19
  This is the heart of the Father where he shows them who he is
• 15:25
  by turning all that
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: bitter water sweet.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Which is just to say that...
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: thing of,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: to the God of the Old Testament,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: God of the New Testament,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: that's a,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: that's a farce.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's not true,
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: but also it's easily seen,
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 15:38
  if you just stop and like really consider what's happening in
• 15:42
  certain texts.
• 15:42
  And that one stands out to me the most,
• 15:44
  because talk about patience,
• 15:46
  patience with God's people.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways, that's really been impressed upon me lately.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's so much there.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's,
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: such a beautiful way to see God's character as a whole.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I even think of the person of Abraham.
• 16:00
  And we think of him as probably one of the most influential
• 16:03
  people in all of human
• 16:04
  history and all the different people groups that come from him
• 16:07
  and call him as one
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: of their father,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_02: Abraham.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_02: And yet he failed in so many different ways.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And yet he's known as a man of faith.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think of the person of Hagar in Genesis 16.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's this really complicated relationship with Sarah and Hagar.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Abraham is doubting.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sarah is doubting.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: And he takes Hagar as his wife.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: He's not supposed to do this.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: He's not trusting God.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: This is not God's plan, you might say.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then Sarah gets mad, banishes Hagar out into the wilderness.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: They want nothing to do with her.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: And then the angel of the Lord visits Hagar in this wilderness.
• 16:42
  And it's this extraordinary moment where this girl is pregnant
• 16:46
  for the first time,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: wandering without food,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: and she's left for dead in some ways.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then God visits her and she says, you are God El Roy.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: You are the God who sees me.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: And there's just this extraordinary moment of like long suffering.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: And yes,
• 17:04
  and then continued patience with even of Abraham to bring him
• 17:07
  back around to these
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: things and to be patient with his own human failings.
• 17:11
  And then to see and be merciful and gracious to someone like
• 17:15
  Hagar in that moment.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the scenes that you see of God's long-suffering,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: his patience,
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: his kindness,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: his love that are seen in the Old Testament over and over.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: We often aren't careful to see them.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: We just kind of,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: like you're saying,
• 17:32
  like to paint this big picture of the angry God and the nice
• 17:37
  one in the New
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Testament.
• 17:39
  So I think it's important to teach our people that God is the
• 17:43
  same yesterday,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: today,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: and forever,
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: and we see him through the Trinity,
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's displayed from cover to cover in the Bible.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 17:51
  Well,
• 17:51
  let's talk about your book,
• 17:52
  Heaven and Earth,
• 17:54
  Awakening Hope for Eternity with God.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I want to talk a lot about this book just because I think it's just a,
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: we were talking beforehand,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a timely subject.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's a timely topic to dive into.
• 18:08
  But I think also,
• 18:09
  as you were hinting at,
• 18:11
  it's a very personal topic for you.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about that.
• 18:14
  Talk about some of the ways in which this is not just something
• 18:18
  that you feel like
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: people should hear or need to hear,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: but maybe even why you needed to write this book for yourself.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked about this.
• 18:26
  I just did another podcast with another writer friend,
• 18:30
  and you're talking about that notion.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: It can sound a little bit conceited,
• 18:33
  but I think one of the ways in which I think writing can be
• 18:37
  cathartic is that
• 18:40
  Actually,
• 18:40
  I need to hear what I'm writing about just as much as anyone
• 18:43
  else does.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: So anyways,
• 18:44
  talk about that and kind of some of the ways in which God was
• 18:49
  leading you to come
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: to this juncture where you're like,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: I need to write this book.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: No,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: I've always wanted to write a book,
• 18:59
  but I could never find the right topic or thought or have the
• 19:02
  real passion for
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: whatever it was.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then as a pastor,
• 19:05
  you're writing and creating all the time for sermons or
• 19:08
  devotionals or such.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so it just never was a priority.
• 19:13
  But this book called Heaven and Earth Awakening Hope for
• 19:17
  Eternity with God was
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: something that maybe was the book I didn't really want to write,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: but was the book that God led me to write in the sense that
• 19:27
  I don't necessarily want anybody to go through what I went
• 19:30
  through to be able to
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: learn what I know now,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: although that is how often God works in our affliction.
• 19:37
  He brings these things into our lives so that we would learn
• 19:40
  not to rely on
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: ourselves,
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: but on God who raises the dead,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: as it says in 2 Corinthians 1.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like there's a real sense that...
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: Inevitably,
• 19:51
  we're all as Christians going to go through the valley of the
• 19:53
  shadow of death of
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: some sort.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And we have to figure out who it is that we're following,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: who it is the one leading us and guiding us through it.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: Because it was around 2020 when my father passed away of leukemia.
• 20:07
  And right in the middle of 2020,
• 20:09
  and obviously 2020 was such a great year for everyone else.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: It was just a wonderful year.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing else going on that year.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Man, I really enjoyed 2020.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_02: There was, especially as pastors, do you remember that?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: You could never make the right decision.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone's angry.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Politically, everything was up and down.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: maybe it's always feeling that way,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: but in particular,
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: 2020 was just a heightened strain of frustration and anger for everyone.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so I went through the loss of my father.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: My wife and I also had a miscarriage around that time as well.
• 20:47
  And then there was just a lot of unrest in my church about
• 20:51
  things as well.
• 20:52
  And then I had a series of like a year and a half after that of
• 20:56
  doing multiple funerals.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, as pastors, you do weddings and funerals and events and stuff.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes it just...
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: comes in quick succession.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: And for some reason,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: God's plan,
• 21:10
  there was several larger funerals or key friends and an elder
• 21:15
  at our church and
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: just several people that passed away that I deeply loved and cared about.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm doing a funeral.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: I also helped officiate my own father's funeral at my own church.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: And just going through that period of like, okay, this is real life.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm experiencing life and death on a regular basis.
• 21:34
  And now I'm trying to offer comfort and words of help to people
• 21:41
  who are really
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: suffering,
• 21:42
  or you're beside a graveside between a grieving family and
• 21:46
  they're questioning as
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: to why this loss has happened in this manner and this way.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Or why did God not answer the prayers that we asked him?
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: And what hope do we have for heaven?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I will be honest with you,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: even as a pastor,
• 21:59
  my thoughts about eternity or the afterlife or for heaven were
• 22:03
  very shallow in some
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: ways that,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: yes,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: I just knew it was the better place to go.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you're presented with two alternatives,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: heaven or hell,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: heaven seems like the better option.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: So at least as long as we're going there, then we're all set.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: But I hadn't really thought very deeply about eternity.
• 22:21
  And in particular,
• 22:23
  as the Bible lays it out,
• 22:24
  is a new heaven and a new earth.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of part of the theme of the book of heaven and earth.
• 22:31
  not them separated or not that we will just live floating in
• 22:35
  the clouds in an
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: eternal church service forever,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: which if we're all being honest,
• 22:41
  sounds fairly boring when you put it up in comparison to the
• 22:45
  amount of fun that you
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: can enjoy on this earth.
• 22:48
  So you're saying you forgive up every hobby and all of food
• 22:51
  forever to be in a
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: church service forever,
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: just singing like,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: blessed be the name for the 10,000th time.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like that...
• 23:00
  The word forever almost sounds more frightening in that
• 23:03
  instance than it does
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: something that we're actually looking forward to.
• 23:07
  So as you're offering something of real hope,
• 23:10
  yes,
• 23:10
  Christians,
• 23:11
  I believe in Jesus.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: I have hope for heaven, but what then?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: What happens?
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I did a sermon series on this very topic just called heaven, but
• 23:25
  It was really about the new heaven and the new earth and I just
• 23:27
  explored the Bible
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: and did a deep dive in that and preached it at my church.
• 23:31
  And many people were impacted by it just saying this would be a
• 23:33
  wonderful series to
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: package or put into a book form or something to give to people.
• 23:39
  But of course,
• 23:40
  as you know,
• 23:40
  just taking a sermon series and putting in a book is not easy.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I didn't do that.
• 23:44
  But I did take a lot of the research and put it as more of a
• 23:47
  personal storyline of
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: my journey through grief,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: the loss of my father,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: trying to pastor through grief,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: and yet give people real tangible hope for a new heaven and a new earth.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Something that they can really hold on to and look forward to.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: That isn't just exchanging the joys of earth,
• 24:04
  but actually God kind of purging the earth of sin and us
• 24:08
  enjoying all of the things
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: that he's blessed us with here in this earth in a new and reformed,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: renewed and restored way,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: the restoration of all things.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's a little bit of what the book's about.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm trying to awaken hope in people for eternity with God,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: that it's not just something that to die is gain,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: like it really is.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so to have that, as Paul would say.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a little bit of it.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: I know I can go on forever about that, but that's a bit of the gist.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: And yes, forever there as a pun, eternity.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I hope that's a way to encapsulate some of the idea behind the book.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: and I think it's needed,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: and I think I want to touch on,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: maybe we can get into that later,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: like kind of the process.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always fascinated about the process of writing and whatnot,
• 24:56
  but like talk especially about how some of these themes of
• 25:01
  heaven and earth and
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: eternity change for you.
• 25:05
  Like you talked about some of the things that you walked
• 25:08
  through as a pastor,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: as a son losing their
• 25:11
  losing your father and as a dad walking through miscarriage
• 25:16
  with your wife.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: So as you were faced with death and even,
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: as you mentioned,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: the uncertainty of whatever the heck was happening in our world,
• 25:26
  what was it about heaven and maybe some of the ways that you
• 25:32
  and I were brought up
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: thinking about heaven?
• 25:35
  What were some of the scales that were falling off as you were
• 25:42
  kind of walking
• 25:43
  through some of those roads where eternity felt nearer because
• 25:50
  you're dealing with
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: it?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: You're pastoring families through losing loved ones or whatnot.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: What were some ways that that changed for you?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 26:00
  because I think some of the book covers a lot of like some of
• 26:03
  the perceived
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: misconceptions about heaven or eternity in the afterlife.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know I had them myself.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: I walked through that.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: I also experienced my own life,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: and as I was counseling or walking with people,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: trying to comfort them through really hard loss,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: confusing,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: really difficult life-altering things,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: and the loss of a dear loved one that just seemed to not make sense.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have,
• 26:31
  sometimes I disconnect between the present physical reality of
• 26:37
  what in the world am
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: I here for?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why am I even on this earth in the first place?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Why doesn't God just whisk us away now and just be done with it?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Take us away.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what's the point?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so some people will have those kinds of questions.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, what's the meaning of life?
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: What, what is life all about?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: Why am I here?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: does anything I do right now even matter?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: am I just,
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: kind of rearranging furniture on the Titanic,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: before it all sinks?
• 27:08
  So there's no point in creating art or planting a garden or
• 27:14
  enjoying a sport or
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: having,
• 27:17
  we're all just kind of wasting time till he returns and just
• 27:21
  burns everything up
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: and then gets us out of here.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 27:24
  I'm saying it in a way that maybe sounds sarcastic,
• 27:27
  but these are things I really thought like
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: I have and,
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: and still wrestle with at times,
• 27:32
  because I feel like there was often a misconception regarding
• 27:35
  like the point of,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: of what we're here doing.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: We're here to win souls,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: you might say,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: but is there anything else on this earth that I'm,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: or am I just kind of rearranging things for an impending disaster?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: And then if you have that kind of mindset,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: then you really can just have,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: and Paul,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think addresses it in first and second Thessalonians as the people are
• 27:57
  often actually being lazy because they're just seeing that
• 28:00
  God's going to return any minute.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so he addresses them like,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: if you're not working with your hands,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: and if you're not actually getting a job and providing,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: then you shouldn't eat.
• 28:09
  And I could be wrong,
• 28:10
  but I'm pretty sure he talks about that in those passages.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, get out there, go work.
• 28:14
  Don't just give up and do nothing because the Lord is going to
• 28:17
  return any moment.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: There is a living for eternity today.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: In fact,
• 28:21
  that's the last chapter of the book is not just hoping to kind
• 28:25
  of whisk yourself
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: away because life is hard and difficult,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: but actually having a real purpose for here and now.
• 28:32
  And so that was a living for eternity today and that what you
• 28:37
  do right now matters for eternity.
• 28:39
  And God's going to redeem those things and restore them to
• 28:43
  their fruition and all that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that was part of it.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I just think part of that aspect of people not really having hope of,
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: what will,
• 28:54
  what do I have to look forward to that helps me endure the
• 28:57
  difficulties of today?
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: like a real hope that,
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: that kind of pierces through and holds you as an anchor for your soul,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: especially when you face the darkest and most difficult,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: challenging things in life.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 29:13
  Or we can just pretend to like stick our head in the sand and
• 29:16
  ignore and just,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: think happy thoughts and we just kind of act like Peter Pan.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: And as long as we never grow up,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: we can just live in this fantasy world of,
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 29:28
  life is easy and just where I'm going to smile at everything
• 29:30
  and everything goes
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: right for Christians who serve the Lord and do the right thing.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know...
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Then you live life and you realize bad things happen to good people,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: you might say,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: as people would say there are no real good people.
• 29:45
  I'm kind of putting that in quotes,
• 29:46
  but there are just some really bad things that happen.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: And there are difficult things and dark things.
• 29:51
  And so how do you face that without like a real hope for
• 29:53
  something more and how God
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: can actually restore what's been lost in your world one day?
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he will bring it.
• 30:02
  He'll make all things new in quality and brilliance and he'll
• 30:07
  restore everything
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: that's been lost.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: So.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that perfectly answers your question,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: but there's many things there that I try to address in the book,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: not going after people who don't know what I know,
• 30:19
  but in particular seeing this was my heart and my own lack of
• 30:24
  ability to provide
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: people with real hope,
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: even as a pastor.
• 30:29
  How can I help other people with that as they walk through
• 30:31
  their own times of grief and loss?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: But also live a life with joy and happiness and enjoy life right now.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: God's blessed you with so many good things.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: And there's reasons to celebrate.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll be doing that for eternity as well.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: So why not do it now?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really good, Jordan.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think what you're touching on is something that has definitely been...
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: upon me,
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: especially as a pastor,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've walked people through grief and loss and death,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: just as you have.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: You've mentioned you've done a lot of funerals,
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: and I think in the first couple years of pastoring here in Pennsylvania,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: that felt like all I was doing.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like a one-to-five ratio in terms of weddings to funerals,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: maybe even more than that.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think...
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: in light of all that,
• 31:19
  there's definitely a need for not resorting to some sort of
• 31:24
  Pollyanna version of
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: heaven,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: where it's just,
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: this is going to make everything better.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also,
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: too,
• 31:32
  there's the notion that you're getting at is not dismissing
• 31:37
  that altogether.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I go back to Paul.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: Of course,
• 31:42
  Paul is everyone's person to go back to in terms of New
• 31:45
  Testament and truth and
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: God's word,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: but
• 31:49
  Out of all the people that are mentioned in Scripture,
• 31:51
  Paul probably had...
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: The most honest view of life, he'd been through it all.
• 31:58
  He had been through the full gamut of every type of emotion and
• 32:02
  problem and persecution.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: He'd seen it all.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: He'd done it all.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: He'd been through it all.
• 32:08
  And I'm thinking about especially 2 Corinthians 11,
• 32:10
  where he's like,
• 32:11
  I had this happen.
• 32:12
  I've been shipwrecked three times,
• 32:14
  which is a crazy thing to include in a resume.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the very end,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: he's like,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: on top of all that,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just super anxious about all the church's
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: The guy had seen it all.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And yet in 2 Corinthians 4,
• 32:25
  he talks about all of this is going to pale in comparison to
• 32:31
  the eternal weight of
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: glory.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's not Paul becoming a Pollyanna, where he's just like,
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: oh, everything's going to work out in the end.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 32:42
  he has the most honest view of what's going to happen then and
• 32:47
  what God is already
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: doing in the midst of what we're experiencing now.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because also Paul elsewhere,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: like you mentioned,
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think in Philippians,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: he's like,
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: for me to live is Christ and to die is gain.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And he uses that word to gain is to his advantage that he were to die.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yet Paul still understood,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: and I think that's kind of one of the thrusts behind your book,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Heaven and Earth,
• 33:14
  is that there is so much good going to happen based on what
• 33:18
  God's going to do in
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: the new heavens and new earth,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: but that doesn't mean that we aren't called to something now.
• 33:23
  Paul understood that no matter how much advantage he might gain
• 33:28
  by dying to be
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: present with his Lord and Savior,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: There was still so much for him here and now and what he was like.
• 33:39
  And I think that that is,
• 33:40
  that is helpful because we're here,
• 33:42
  you and I are here.
• 33:43
  We're here in the midst of churches and people and doing quote
• 33:47
  unquote kingdom work and we're,
• 33:49
  We're striving to point people to the kingdom and all that kind
• 33:54
  of stuff.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't it be better if we all just got whisked away, as you say?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: And Paul and everyone will say no.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not a Pollyanna thing.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's just a real thing.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because God is doing something with this earth.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, maybe you can speak to that, but...
• 34:12
  I think there was always this mindset that this earth is just
• 34:17
  going to be dismissed
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: and discarded and we're going to be somewhere else.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so obviously that is like some sort of like Pollyanna escapism.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: where we're just trying to get out.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: We can't wait to get out of here.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, that's not true.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: God's going to reshape this earth.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: He's going to renew it.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: People argue about what that's going to look like.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, he's doing something with this world.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: He's not just going to toss it away.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it's going to look like,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: the new heaven and new earth,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: it's going to be much like this,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: just infinitely better.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: and perfect.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: and again,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: that it's,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: it's,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: we can't think of heaven as like escapism,
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: I guess is what I'm trying to get at.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: I, I talk a lot, all those points, um, I, I cover in the book.
• 35:08
  I do try to stay away from trying to pigeonhole people into a
• 35:11
  certain like end times theology.
• 35:14
  Uh,
• 35:14
  you know,
• 35:15
  are you dispensational,
• 35:17
  historic,
• 35:17
  pre-millennial,
• 35:18
  on millennial,
• 35:19
  post-millennial?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: I could talk about which one I am,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: but the point is in the book,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: I don't try to make that the emphasis that,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: if you're not this eschatology,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: if you don't believe that kind of way,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: then you can't get that.
• 35:33
  My point is that so much time has been spent on end times
• 35:38
  timelines and that stuff
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_02: that I think so much hot air literally has been spent on that,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: that nobody has any idea about eternity or the new earth.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, if you look at most systematic theologies,
• 35:52
  There's so much time and books and pages spent on everything
• 35:56
  else,
• 35:56
  as there should be.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: And usually the very last chapter of any systematic theology book,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: if anyone ever gets to the end,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: and even if you had a seminary course,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: most of the time you didn't have time,
• 36:06
  you got to the end of that course or end of that book and they
• 36:09
  rushed through maybe
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: a page.
• 36:11
  I think it's Berkhoff who has one page on eternity and the new
• 36:14
  earth and like,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: a hundred pages on everything else.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: There is sometimes just by nature of the fact that it comes at the end.
• 36:22
  And some of it is in some ways speculation because none of us
• 36:25
  have been there in
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: the sense,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: although Paul says,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've been to the third heaven,
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: all these things.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: I knew a man who did that, right?
• 36:30
  But there's a real sense of like,
• 36:33
  I understand why that is not always covered.
• 36:36
  And so I think sometimes my goal is trying to create this real
• 36:40
  hope for that future
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: and what that looks like without spending too much on timelines per se.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: But also,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: trying to press in that we're not just trying to escape and just,
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: who cares about the earth or what happens here?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm out of here.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: I got my ticket to heaven, man.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: So who cares?
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 37:00
  that is not a real great Christian ethic and not a really great
• 37:04
  way to live as a
• 37:05
  good neighbor or to care for the earth in any ways or to manage
• 37:10
  and steward what
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: God's blessed us with.
• 37:12
  And so I do cover the concept that I do believe God is
• 37:14
  restoring,
• 37:15
  will restore it in one way.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: Theologians can argue as to how that looks,
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: how that will happen in particular,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: or the timeline of that.
• 37:23
  But I do see in the flood,
• 37:25
  he washes everything,
• 37:27
  but he doesn't eliminate the earth.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: He takes and restores in the flood in Noah what is there,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_02: and he reshapes it,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: and creates this new beginning.
• 37:35
  And in some ways,
• 37:36
  I believe he's going to be doing a similar thing in that
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: He will be taking the existing materials,
• 37:41
  dissolving the sin and refining it and purifying it with fire
• 37:45
  and eliminating what
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: is sinful and wrong,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: but also then purifying it to be presented wholly new.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so when he says a new earth and he talks about I'm doing a new thing,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: and there's many places where that word is used,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: but when I talk about it and the idea that it's new in kind,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: sorry,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: new in quality,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: not new in kind like new.
• 38:07
  It's not something new that you've never seen before,
• 38:10
  but it's like a car.
• 38:11
  You have an old car that's run down and broken and you wish
• 38:14
  these things got fixed,
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: but it still runs,
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: it goes down the road.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a car.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know what a car is.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: If you've got a brand new car,
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: everything is fixed,
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: it's clean,
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: it smells wonderful,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: it works the way it's supposed to work.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: I do think when he says new earth,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: he doesn't mean some other planet like Mars or something like this.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: He's actually referring to the earth that we're on and it is new.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: It is very familiar to us.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: There are trees and rivers and waters and places that we know
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: but without sin, you know?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the restoration of all things that he speaks about,
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus speaks about,
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: and you can go on to different passages.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that aspect,
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: that small,
• 38:48
  very simple aspect of theology really can provide a framework
• 38:51
  for you to really
• 38:52
  consider how you're living on the earth now when you consider
• 38:55
  this is the same
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: earth you'll be living on forever.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: And theologians may disagree with me on that or whatever,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: but I do think it is pretty simple to see throughout the scripture.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really helpful distinction,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: this idea between new and kind versus new and quality,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: only because I think whatever your eschatological position,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: we can at least sense,
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: and hopefully we can agree that,
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Revelation 21.5,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: when he says,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm making all things new,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: that's what he's doing.
• 39:25
  He's not bringing some new thing in other than the fact that
• 39:28
  he's just purging things.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: all of the bad,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: making way for holy and good and perfect to be established forever,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: which is our ultimate,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: that's ultimately what we're longing for.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I've often thought about that verse out of Revelation,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: which is so pertinent to this discussion of heaven,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: behold,
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: it making all things new,
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: especially in light of,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: last year I preached through the book of Habakkuk,
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: which I have,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: it's easily one of my most favorite
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: Old Testament scriptures,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: and especially at the very beginning,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: because at the very beginning,
• 40:05
  Habakkuk the prophet is like looking out upon this world and
• 40:07
  the landscape in which
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: he saw was just injustice everywhere.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: He says justice never goes forth.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: The law is paralyzed.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: He literally says everything is bad.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: there's corruption, everything seems to be on fire.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: And no, that's not talking about America in 2026.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is a long time ago.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the Lord's answer to him is so amazing because he doesn't say,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: he doesn't give him,
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: these solutions.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't tell him, he doesn't, you know, give him, like, a map.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't give him a timeline, kind of what you're alluding to.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: But his words to him, I keep going back to these words, Habakkuk 1.5.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: He says, look among the nations and see, wonder, and be astounded.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: for I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if I told.
• 40:58
  Even if I told you,
• 40:58
  Habakkuk,
• 41:01
  you wouldn't even know how to wrap your mind around it.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that work that he's doing is Revelation 21.5.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: He's making all things new, even in our very midst.
• 41:11
  And I think that that's what's this incredibly life-giving
• 41:17
  thought to keep going
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: back to,
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: is that this notion that we
• 41:23
  we long to get there god's bringing that into here he's heaven
• 41:29
  is invading earth
• 41:31
  and we don't know the timeline of that we don't know the time
• 41:33
  frame of that um but
• 41:36
  that's what's happening that's what god like there's a it's a
• 41:38
  heavenly incursion um
• 41:41
  so we don't need to like just put all of our hopes and getting
• 41:44
  there um it's more
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: about
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: how we're spent,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: use the Tolkien quote,
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: what are we going to do with the time that God has given us?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: We can't decide the times,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: we can't decide and,
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: try and choose between the times,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: but what are we going to do in the times that God has given us?
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's such a helpful perspective of life,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: of ministry,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: of faith,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: and especially for churches that feel the groaning.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I know you mentioned this,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Romans 8, creation feels this groaning.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: We feel this groaning.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we long for that.
• 42:22
  And our calling is faithfulness in the times,
• 42:27
  which I think is so important,
• 42:29
  so vital.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now, in the book, I talk about that idea.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: But in Matthew 19, 28, it's Jesus speaking to the rich young ruler.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_02: And then the disciples kind of ask, what must we do to have eternal life?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: And Peter's like, well, I've left everything and followed you.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: What then will we have?
• 42:50
  And Jesus then answers his disciples with a brilliant depiction
• 42:53
  of the heavenly
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_02: realm and blessing waiting for his followers.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: He uses a specific word that we don't see too often in the scripture,
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: paligenesia,
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_02: to describe the world to come.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: So he says in Matthew 19,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: 28,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus says,
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: truly I say to you,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: in the new world,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: that's this paligenesia,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: and,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: and when the son of man will sit on his glorious throne,
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: you who have followed me will also sit on 12 thrones,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
• 43:20
  But it's that word new world that different translations will
• 43:24
  even use the phrase,
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: the regeneration or the renewal of all things,
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: or it's the ESV uses the new world.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: The NLT says the world is made new, um,
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a real sense there that even Jesus is telling them about,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: in the regeneration of all things,
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: in the restoration of all things,
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_02: in the new world,
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: this is the way it will be.
• 43:47
  Even Jesus is pointing them in Matthew 19 to see something that
• 43:52
  is still yet to
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: come and something tangible as well.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's part of the book as well,
• 43:58
  some of the misconceptions of just kind of floating like a
• 44:00
  ghost or living like an
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: ethereal being floating as a spirit force up in the earth.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's really just kind of more...
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: New Age,
• 44:09
  Eastern mysticism kind of teaching us and infecting into our
• 44:12
  churches or Gnosticism
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: in a sort that we don't really value the body or physical things.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: We always assume spiritual or things are better.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_02: And yet God has made things quite physical.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he, in his resurrected form, is also physical.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus appears.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, in the Bible, Jesus says, I'm not a ghost.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: He says, I am not a spirit.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: They're afraid of him.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: And he then has breakfast with them on a beach and eats real food.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: And some of these resurrected...
• 44:45
  appearances are purposeful in that Jesus is coming back to
• 44:49
  earth in his resurrected
• 44:50
  form and having conversations with people and doing real
• 44:53
  physical tangible things
• 44:54
  he's walking with them on the road to Emmaus and they don't
• 44:56
  even know and he's just
• 44:57
  a person in some ways right did not our hearts burn within us
• 45:00
  was that the Lord
• 45:01
  right in our resurrected as he broke the bread yes he's the
• 45:04
  Lord in resurrected
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: form and it appears other places and all of that but
• 45:07
  there's still a real tangible physical nature to him that I
• 45:11
  think is the first
• 45:12
  fruits of our resurrection as well and our physical bodies that
• 45:15
  are going to be
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: resurrected again.
• 45:17
  If we don't have a physical body when we're resurrected,
• 45:19
  then it's not a resurrection,
• 45:20
  right?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's just kind of like, okay, life to life.
• 45:23
  Resurrection by its very form and nature and definition is that
• 45:27
  the body physically
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: is resurrected.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so...
• 45:31
  We should expect when we put our little seeds into the ground
• 45:34
  that have to die
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: first in order for them to spring forth and bring forth life,
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: as he says,
• 45:39
  we would expect that seed of our bodies to be placed into the
• 45:42
  ground and come back
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: one day to even brighter and more brilliant life to bear fruit.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what we would expect.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we see.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what Jesus did.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: He's buried into the grave.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: He rose again to new life.
• 45:53
  And he appears in a resurrected physical yet spiritual body as
• 45:58
  both are mixed together.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that is what constitutes the human person as well.
• 46:05
  So there's a lot there,
• 46:07
  but that I think sometimes was part of my misconception.
• 46:10
  Just one day I will whisk away and I'll live an ethereal kind
• 46:14
  of floating life with the cupids.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Valentine's Day is right around the corner.
• 46:17
  You know,
• 46:17
  the little cupids,
• 46:19
  you know,
• 46:19
  kind of like little angels just floating.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, is this like heaven?
• 46:23
  You know,
• 46:24
  like Peter at the pearly gate standing on clouds and streets of
• 46:27
  gold.
• 46:28
  Some of this is almost more folklore than it is actual biblical
• 46:32
  scriptural hope.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's good.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: In chapter three,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: you talk about the...
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think you even invoke the word eucatastrophe,
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: which of course is something that is very...
• 46:49
  I would say that's very pertinent within my own theological
• 46:53
  understanding,
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: even though it came out of Middle Earth and Tolkien.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: But that notion of eucatastrophe...
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about what that is,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: but then also kind of connect it to,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: we could say,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: your theology of heaven and then how that informs Christian hope,
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: how eucatastrophe,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: we could say,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: informs Christian hope?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: and maybe we're going to lose some of the non-Tolkien fans here,
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't know if they're listening or not or if they exist.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: But J.R.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Tolkien is one of my favorite authors, and I'm a big fan of his as well.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've actually gotten to read...
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm reading The Hobbit to my children for the second time now,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_02: so that's been really fun to audibly read it to the kids.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: And even my little son loves talking about Bilbo and all the...
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: the ring and everything.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: So eucatastrophe is a word that Tolkien invented.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so I quote it in my book.
• 47:49
  He wrote a little essay called On Fairy Tales,
• 47:52
  or On Fairy Stories,
• 47:54
  I think he calls it.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: And C.S.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Lewis writes about this as well.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Lewis and Tolkien were friends and contemporaries,
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: and they discussed these kinds of things of the importance of
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: of teaching myth,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: you might say,
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: or fairy tales to children and to adults,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: because there is really the one myth,
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: the one fairy tale,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: which is the actual true story.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a myth,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: but he uses those terms to describe,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:16
  Jesus coming to earth to rescue us and slay the dragon and the
• 48:20
  eucatastrophe of
• 48:22
  this kind of horrible ending that you would expect that happens
• 48:25
  in movies or
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: stories or the hero dies,
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: on Holy Saturday.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: After Good Friday, everyone's like, wait a second.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I really saw this going differently.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: Or like for a contemporary illustration,
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: which is going to break down some of our viewers,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: our listeners as well,
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: was.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a New England Patriots fan.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry about that.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I expected the fairy tale story to happen again,
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: as we have had an experience with Tom Brady.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: We made it to the Super Bowl.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: We were going to slay the giant Seahawk.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then the Seahawk just destroyed us, you know.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: And we almost broke a record for scoring zero points.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: But eventually we did.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I was expecting this fairy tale story, right?
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then, no, we just got...
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, trounced.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's it.
• 49:11
  Jesus gets to the cross and,
• 49:13
  you know,
• 49:13
  they're expecting all these and he dies.
• 49:16
  And everyone's like,
• 49:17
  is that it that we just go home and our hope is lost?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then obviously the eucatastrophe is out of this horrible,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: terrible event becomes this glorious resurrection and new life.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_02: And this is kind of the arc narrative,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: not the A-R-K,
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_02: but the A-R-C,
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: like the arc of stories and often how fairy tale stories work.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's something that you see, you know, this storyline.
• 49:43
  So that's kind of how I see it in some ways,
• 49:44
  that the cross is that central pivotal moment
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: where we are brought into the grand eucatastrophe,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: this catastrophe that occurs,
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_02: but the new and the good catastrophe,
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: as he's saying,
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: it's a good catastrophe.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good thing.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's a good Friday that leads to Easter and our death and our suffering.
• 50:02
  Our death is a good death in faith and through the spirit
• 50:06
  because it leads to eternal life.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we join him in that as well.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: he talks about it as this sudden turn from bad to good,
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's important to note this,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: that this is coming from an author,
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: a philologist,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: a professor who had been through trench warfare.
• 50:29
  He had seen the worst sort of environment that humans could
• 50:33
  possibly see in the First World War.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: And when Tolkien is writing this,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: he's not,
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: writing out of any sort of Pollyanna-ish version of hope.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: Actually,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: whether,
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_00: who's to say what his,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: orthodoxy was,
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: but he's writing out of this sense that this is...
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: this is the gospel.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: And he even says that later on in that same essay,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: that the resurrection is the eucatastrophe of the birth of Christ.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's the eucatastrophe of the incarnation, I think he says.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: And how there's this moment where everything seems lost,
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: and yet actually it turns out to be good.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: And in fact, that's the ultimate hope.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been going through
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: an apologetics class with the folks at my church here,
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: and we keep going back to that verse,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: 1 Peter 3.15,
• 51:25
  that part of apologetics is giving a reasoned defense for the
• 51:30
  hope that is in us.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I've often thought about what that word hope means,
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_00: and it could be vague,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_00: it could be this amorphous thing,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: but actually hope is just the certainty,
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: even despite all the evidence to the contrary,
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: that
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: there is going to be a sudden turn from bad to good.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: To even push the Tolkien quoting even further,
• 51:53
  that soon there's going to come a day where we are all in a
• 51:56
  world that is green
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: under a swift sunrise.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not to be super melodramatic,
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: but that's what heaven,
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: being in the presence of God,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: is going to
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: going to be like for those who are called according to his purpose.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what a great hope that is.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: What a great certainty that is.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that what is really,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: I keep using that phrase,
• 52:23
  what has been impressed upon me is how pastoral that is for
• 52:28
  individuals who come to
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: church,
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: who are working nine to fives,
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: who are dealing with all kinds of
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: Crazy schedules and burdens and things that we don't even know.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: They're carrying them.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's weighing on them.
• 52:44
  Heaven and the hope of heaven can have a...
• 52:49
  Maybe even you can speak to that,
• 52:50
  Jordan.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like, what does the hope of heaven, how can that...
• 52:54
  be tangibly and pastorally connected to everyday life when when
• 53:01
  people are just
• 53:02
  like i just gotta get through my day i just gotta i just gotta
• 53:05
  get through my week
• 53:05
  man like i'm i'm working this job and i'm taking my kids here
• 53:09
  and there and yon and
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: what is the hope of evan how does that inform and impact everyday life
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I think it does.
• 53:19
  The last chapter in my book is Living for Eternity for Today,
• 53:23
  and I kind of referenced that.
• 53:26
  But it's the idea from the end of 1 Corinthians 15 that I think
• 53:32
  is so helpful in
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: in my opinion,
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: 1 Corinthians 15 is like the best chapter in the Bible.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: Some people might say, well, Romans 8 or something, but...
• 53:43
  I would argue all day long 1 Corinthians 15 is the greatest
• 53:46
  chapter in the Bible.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: But the very...
• 53:51
  the very last verse in 1 Corinthians 15 after he speaks about
• 53:55
  the mystery and the
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: victory and the death is swallowed up in victory.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, death, where is your victory?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, death, where is your sting?
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_02: We have victory through Lord Jesus Christ.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: This is like, wow.
• 54:06
  He ends on this resurrection of the body and death has no power
• 54:10
  and we are victorious.
• 54:12
  And then he says,
• 54:13
  just in his lovingly pastoral way into what you were just
• 54:17
  asking,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: He says, therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: Don't give up.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: Don't lose ground just because you have an extraordinary hope.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: But be immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I love this phrase.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: Knowing that in the Lord, your labor is not in vain.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: Your work, your labor is not in vain.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_02: It isn't wasted.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: You are not just rearranging deck furniture on the Titanic.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_02: There is something that is really of value, the little things in life.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I end with that.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: There's even a quote there.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_02: I won't read the whole quote, but this is a better quote.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: talks about it,
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: but this says,
• 55:06
  God does not waste your time or efforts given as an offering
• 55:09
  for his kingdom.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: He will redeem everything done in his name and for his glory.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: So raise your children and take out the trash to the glory of God,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: because the kingdom of heaven is coming to earth now and forevermore.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_02: Mow your grass and drive to work to God's glory,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_02: because the kingdom of heaven is coming to earth now and forevermore.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: Love your neighbor to the glory of God,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: for the kingdom of heaven is coming to earth now and forevermore.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: I try to keep repeating that.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: And to him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: 2 Peter 3, 18.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: But that idea of like,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: even the little stuff,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_02: taking out the trash and mowing our lawns and planting our garden and
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 55:49
  these kinds of things that God will restore and redeem all that
• 55:52
  is good and make it
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: worthwhile because your labor and your work is not wasted.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: It is not in vain.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you have a glorious hope,
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_02: but that informs your reason to try right now to keep going,
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: to be immovable and steadfast because you know what is to come.
• 56:08
  And that is how you can actually endure whatever today may come
• 56:12
  your way,
• 56:13
  you know.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's such a good word, Jordan.
• 56:15
  And it's such a good reminder of indeed the hope we have,
• 56:19
  even in the little things.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: It brings my mind all the way back to the book of Ecclesiastes,
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: which again,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_00: for listeners,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: I just did a show on that.
• 56:29
  That was the previous episode talking about Ecclesiastes and
• 56:34
  all of the rich themes
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: with a friend of mine who wrote a book about Ecclesiastes.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I think about that
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: those moments throughout that book where the preacher,
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: probably Solomon,
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: he talks about eat,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: drink,
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: and be merry.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's not some sort of nihilistic view of the end.
• 56:52
  Actually,
• 56:52
  it's kind of what you're getting at because of the hope of
• 56:55
  heaven.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_00: Go have a dinner party to the glory of God.
• 56:59
  Go invite your friends and neighbors over for steak or whatever
• 57:03
  you want to eat together.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's what he's getting at.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's those moments
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Those little things,
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: that's kind of where those are some,
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: other philosophers,
• 57:14
  theologians talk about those are the thin places where heaven
• 57:17
  kind of meets earth,
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't think about them that way, but that's what's happening.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the preacher is trying to insinuate.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: Because no, like he all throughout Ecclesiastes, he talks about that.
• 57:30
  Like we can't we can't escape our times and we can't control
• 57:36
  the things that are beyond our can.
• 57:38
  So go and invite your friends and neighbors over and eat dinner
• 57:42
  together and just
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_00: have a conversation.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: And thinking about that,
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: man,
• 57:48
  what a joyous calling God has given us here on earth as we are
• 57:53
  called to live for
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: his glory on here.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, our labor is not in vain.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: What a great reminder.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: there's a quote in the book I found somewhere where it says,
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: if there's no laughter in heaven,
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: if there's no laughing in heaven,
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: then I don't want to go there.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: Mark Twain who said that,
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: because that certainly sounds like something that Mark Twain would say.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: It was actually Martin Luther who said that.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: There is a real sense that sometimes in the Christian world,
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: we tend to think the more pious we are,
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_02: the more...
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: dry and dead and serious we are about everything.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: the more boring we can make the Bible,
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: the more theologically sound we are,
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: and the less we laugh and the more joy we,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_02: do not experience in this life.
• 58:39
  And I say even,
• 58:41
  you know,
• 58:41
  the Christian life is not meant to be eked out in stoic
• 58:44
  drudgery.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, why is it that we have had that?
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: And even we think the Puritans were like that too.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: We read the Puritans, we're like, yeah, they were just such boars and
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: they like,
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: they wear belt buckles on their head or is that,
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_02: that's the pilgrims.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Anyways,
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: but like,
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: they,
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: they like,
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_02: they,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: there's this real sense of this stoic pietistic,
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: drudgery of life that the less you smile,
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: the more Christian you are.
• 59:11
  And,
• 59:12
  uh,
• 59:12
  and I think that is a,
• 59:13
  an unfortunate way that maybe the,
• 59:15
  the world has seen that.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is there any attractiveness to Jesus and the hope that you have,
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: like you said,
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: is to give,
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_02: to give an answer.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_02: with gentleness and respect to the hope that,
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: that you have,
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 59:28
  like do people even ask and do they even want to be a Christian
• 59:33
  or because they see
• 59:34
  your life or are you just like dragging your feet through life
• 59:37
  all day long?
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just trying to get out of this place, you know, all the time.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's all that people get from the vibe of your life, you know?
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: that's a sad way to live.
• 59:47
  And I know I've struggled with that too because I tend to have
• 59:50
  more of a melancholy
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: personality and I tend to be more serious about things in those ways.
• 59:56
  And yet I find if we can give people a bright hope for tomorrow
• 59:59
  and not just a
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_02: wishfulness or just,
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_02: it's going to get better,
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: but a real tangible hope for something biblical,
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: scriptural,
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_02: and an anchor for our soul.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: you know, that, that can give us hope for today and joy and happiness.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we can enjoy the Patriots, even losing in the Superbowl.
• 1:00:17
  Like I can enjoy the silliness of watching football with
• 1:00:20
  friends and eating wings
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_02: and enjoying food and going for a bike ride and playing with my kids and,
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: watching a movie that you enjoy with your wife.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: why not?
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: These are not bad things.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: These are things God has given in our blessings.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what we call life.
• 1:00:37
  And we will be doing many of these same things forever in
• 1:00:40
  eternity with an endless
• 1:00:42
  SPEAKER_02: adventure of these kinds of things.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so why not practice for that now?
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously,
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: without worshiping those,
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: we have a tendency to make those into idols and all of those things.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's obviously a real sense there.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: But
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think some of it,
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: we just try to put off so much,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: that we forget what we're here to do in the first place,
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: how to live maybe as a Christian with hope and joy,
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: that the joy of the Lord can be our strength,
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: you might say.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, where can people find your book?
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Where can people, uh, grab a copy for themselves?
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: If you can, you go to hosannarevival.com, you'll find it there.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: It isn't really on Amazon yet.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: They're moving that direction.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: This is a smaller Christian publisher called Hosanna Revival.
• 1:01:28
  They produce really high-quality material,
• 1:01:32
  and working with them has been an absolute joy.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_02: Everything they do is hand-drawn and crafted.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_02: the covers and what they do in the illustrations.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's a hardcover book and they just do a really high quality thing.
• 1:01:48
  And I wanted something that would be like a gift that you put
• 1:01:50
  into someone's hand,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_02: not just a book that's kind of mass produced in a sense.
• 1:01:55
  And so they really take care for the craft of how the material
• 1:02:00
  is being presented to people.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I really value that.
• 1:02:03
  That the book isn't just words on a page,
• 1:02:04
  but a real work of art as well.
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so what they've done tying that together, that's HosannaRevival.com.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that book is out right now.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_02: It just came out last week.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was just released in February.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can get that from them.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also, I have another devotional, but it's an online thing coming out.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: with Hosanna Revival for Holy Week as well.
• 1:02:29
  So leading up to Easter,
• 1:02:31
  you can sign up for my Holy Week devotional called Jesus and
• 1:02:35
  the Tree.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm excited about that.
• 1:02:37
  It kind of looks at a different tree every day of Holy Week
• 1:02:42
  leading up to Easter.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_02: So Palm Sunday is obviously the palm tree, but
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_02: I look at the sycamore tree and the fig tree and the olive tree.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then,
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_02: of course,
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus and the tree being the cross tree,
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: as it's referred to in the New Testament twice.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's a great thing.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you even just want to check that out,
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: sign up for that,
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: you'll receive the devotional in your inbox every day of Holy Week.
• 1:03:06
  And it's a wonderful way you can walk people through thinking
• 1:03:09
  about the elements
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: leading up to Easter to prepare your heart.
• 1:03:12
  So that's Jesus and the Tree on Hosanna Revival and Heaven and
• 1:03:14
  Earth Awakening Hope
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: for Eternity with God on Hosanna Revival as well.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome, Jordan.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, make sure you check out the links.
• 1:03:25
  Hosunnaverivote.com and all the other stuff is going to be in
• 1:03:28
  the notes for this show.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you check that out.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: Grab a copy of Head of an Earth and sign up for that devotional.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: Jordan, it's so good to see you.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad you are here.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I look forward to whenever we can do this again.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for coming on, man.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is a blast.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_02: We'll have to do it again sometime.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully not so far away from 155 to 55.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not so far away.
• 1:03:49
  And maybe next time it'll be after,
• 1:03:52
  you know,
• 1:03:52
  the Patriots win or something.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which should be any day soon, really.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: Any day, right?
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Exciting.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_02: God bless.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: We've been blessed by this episode.
• 1:04:04
  Make sure before you click away,
• 1:04:06
  go check out all of the links in the show notes.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: Grab your copy of Heaven and Earth.
• 1:04:12
  Go support Jordan and this new book that he has just released
• 1:04:15
  through Hosanna Revival.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: And also,
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: if you haven't yet subscribed,
• 1:04:20
  make sure to subscribe to Ministry Minded on Apple Podcasts or
• 1:04:23
  Spotify or wherever
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: you get your podcasts.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for doing that.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate all of your encouragement and support.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: Just thank you always for listening and commenting and subscribing.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: And until then, I'll see you on the next episode.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: Blessings.