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How John Lennox is Making Stephen Bartlett Rethink Jesus || SLP657 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: If I was born in, I don't know, Afghanistan, the probability says I'd probably be Muslim.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I I take that.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: So God gave you an advantage in this context because he put you to be born in a place where you were likely to be Christian.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: They talk for an hour and a half, but I want to identify two moments that were the most significant, I think, in actually reaching Stephen.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: For moment number two, we have to go right to the end of the debate.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: One of the most compelling arguments for uh God that you've presented is not actually necessarily anything you've written in your books, or not necessarily anything you've said.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: It is it is actually These two moments actually engage different parts of the human person.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think they were effective, not because so much they engage the mind, but because they engage the conscience and the heart.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: We will see what these two different moments are in a second, but my name's Glenn Scrivener from Speak Like.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: We like to see all things through the lens of Jesus.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: If you like trying on some Jesus spectacles at least for a little bit, why don't you subscribe to the channel to hear more about a Jesus-centered vision for God, the world, and you?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get into it.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Professor John Lennox is the number one Christianity expert.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I thought actually Wes Huff was the number one Christianity expert according to the diary of a CEO, but apparently Wes is happy to be the number two, number one Christianity expert.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_03: And the undisputed number one, number one Christianity expert in the world is John Lennox, Professor Emeritus of Mathematics at Oxford University, multiple PhDs.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: He goes on to the diary of a CEO, one of the biggest podcasts in the world.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Stephen Bartlett has had his new atheist phase and is now reconsidering faith again.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: And Stephen wants to talk to the number one Christianity expert in the world, John Lennox.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get into this first moment that I've identified.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: But one of the stats that used to get me when I went through that new atheist movement was that globally, 91% of adults simply adopt and keep the religion they were raised in.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: And if a person is born into a Hindi or Muslim household, there is a 99% statistical probability they will remain in that faith.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Only 1% switch out.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then the argument, I think it came from Dawkins or someone else, was that is it fair that there's this birth lottery determining who ends up believing what, or theoretically getting into hell or heaven?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because if I was born in, I don't know, Afghanistan, the probability says I'd probably be Muslim.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I I take that.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: So God gave you an advantage in this context because he he he allowed you to be born his in his all-knowing, all all uh understanding way, put you to be born in a place where you were likely to be Christian.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds to me as if he gave the same advantage to you.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: So the question is, what do we do with that privilege?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I know that there are hard problems round the edge here.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: There are really hard problems.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Not only where you're born and what you believe.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: This was the argument that Peter Singer advanced to me in a debate.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know whether you've heard about it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Peter Singer, you know, the Princeton ethicist, who really was one of the new atheists, but not quite.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: Very famous for his views on dealing with the unborn and all the rest.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we had a debate in Australia, and I started as I always do by being upfront about my background.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: And he, when he got the chance to speak, he said, Well, there goes my best objection to religion.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: People always stay in the religion which they're brought up, you see.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: When I next got a chance to speak, I said, Peter, I told the audience about my Christian background, but you said nothing about yours.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now tell me, were your parents atheists?
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: He said, they were.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I said, then you remained in the faith in which you were brought up.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, but he said it isn't a faith.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Peter, I was I was convinced that you believed it.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it brought the house down, of course.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: This the cyberspace went mad.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the point was made repeatedly all over the internet.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Here's one of the world's top philosophers.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't understand that his atheism is a belief system.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: That was the beginning of John Lennox's answer.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: Now, if you want to hear the sorts of things that I say uh when this issue comes up, I mean, you you don't really want my opinion.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: I am the 563rd, 345th number one Christianity expert.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: But if you want to hear what I think about these kinds of issues, I did a video about seven months ago called Divine Hiddenness is a Real Problem.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: And there I talk about the geographical spread of every other religion in the world and how Christianity is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of an international spread.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: And the fact that at the heart of the Christian answer is not that we know who goes up and down, but that we know who the judge is.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_03: The judge who is Jesus who put himself in the dock to give himself the harshest judgment so that no one need ever know that judgment.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: I get into all of that and more in my video Divine Hiddenness is a Real Problem.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I would have said, but it wouldn't have been as good as what John Lennox did, because what did John Lennox do?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't actually aim at the intellect in his answer.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: Did you notice the thing that he did?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: He aimed at the conscience.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: Let's see it again.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: If I was born in, I don't know, Afghanistan, the probability says I'd probably be Muslim.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I I take that.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: So God gave you an advantage in this context because he put you to be born in a place where you were likely to be Christian.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: It sounds to me as if he gave the same advantage to you.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So the question is, what do we do with that privilege?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_03: It was quite a chastening answer, actually, from John Lennox, delivered in the most wonderful grandfatherly tone.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: And John Lennox is absolutely right.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: What are we going to do with what we do know?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: We can get caught up in all kinds of speculation for what about those who don't know very much?
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, we we just have to trust Jesus with stuff we don't know.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: But before we consider what about those people who know very little, John Lennox is absolutely right, putting his finger on the conscience and on the conscience of Stephen and saying, what will you do with what you know?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: And he says that in the context of a heck of a lot of affirmation of Stephen, and and quite rightly so.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: He's saying, Stephen, you appear to be an earnest seeker, and that is good, and keep on pulling at those threads, but you must continue to ask that question, what am I doing with what I do know?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Before I consider what will people do who know less than me, I need to figure out what will I do with all that I know?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant answer.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: Not aimed at the intellect, aimed at the conscience.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that was moment number one that really landed with Stephen.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: For moment number two, we have to go right to the end of the conversation.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: One of the most compelling arguments for uh God that you've presented and your way of seeing the world and being is not actually necessarily anything you've written in your books, or not necessarily anything you've said.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: It is it is actually you.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: And uh you you you have a certain peace and contentment that I uh rarely see in people that I interview, but I often see and I've almost always seen in the Christians that I've interviewed.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And this is an interesting phenomenon for me.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: I interviewed Wesley Huff recently.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know Wesley Huff?
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: He was the same as Wesley's a bright cookie.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he was very much, he gave me the same feeling as you, just like feels like a really happy person.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: Very sort of content-rounded, well, there are many of us.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: But it seems to be a trend that you know a lot of the Christian apologists that I've interviewed have that b anchoring that so many of us are looking for.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: There's a real sense of that.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh I sit in front of many people, and of course they often ask me questions I don't even understand, but uh in life that piece is very important to me.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And also what we started with when I look at you, I see someone who's of infinite value made in the image of God.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so what I say to you or think about you is hugely important to me, and I wish you well.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that brilliant?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: The best argument for Christianity is drumroll you, John Lennox, your character, your integrity, your peace?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting that psychologists often talk about a non-anxious presence.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I know in chaplaincy that's a massive thing that you you need to be if you are a chaplain in the military, if you're a chaplain in a school, a chaplain to a sports team.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there's all sorts of chaos going on.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_03: And what is it like to be a chaplain into that situation, to be a non-anxious presence and to model peace when all around is chaos?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: John Lennox himself is that non-anxious presence.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: His life is his testimony.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: He is a witness.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: And isn't that a fruitful word from the Bible?
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus says in Acts chapter 1, verse 8, you will be my witnesses.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_03: My witnesses.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus doesn't say, try and witness a little bit to your neighbors.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: He doesn't say, try and do a thing called witnessing.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_03: You are a lamp on a stand.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_03: You cannot not shine.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: You can put a bucket over the top of that lamp, but you are a shining light.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: And John Lennox himself is the light.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a compelling light and an attractive light.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think this was the moment in the whole conversation.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_03: And what do you notice about it?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: It had nothing to do with an argument, a chain of reasoning, an anecdote, a story.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't have anything to do with the expertise of John Lennox.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: John Lennox might be a number one Christianity expert.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think he is the number one, number one Christianity expert.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_03: But what is really connecting with Stephen Bartlett has nothing to do with his expertise.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: It has everything to do with his example.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_03: And let me tell you what that means for you.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: If you are not a Christian, I think you should do what Stephen Bartlett is doing, which is surrounding himself with witnesses, surrounding himself with Christians who have that peace, who have that non-anxious presence.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: And he's picking their brains and he's dialoguing with them and he and he wants to kind of sort through the arguments.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: But you know what is really moving the needle for him as regards faith?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's being around such people.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: Paul Vanderclay often says, if you want to believe something, join a bunch of people who believe that thing, and you'll find yourself catching up with their beliefs.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Which, incidentally, is part of the reason why God has chosen for his faith to spread in those familial ways, because it is about communities of faith that slowly move out through the world.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's not about an intellectual knowledge that gets downloaded from on high.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_03: But if you are not a Christian, then do what Stephen Bartlett is doing.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_03: Surround yourself with Christians, the kind of Christians that have that non-anxious presence, that have that peace.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_03: If you are a Christian, be like John Lennox.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: And that might feel to you like, oh no, Glenn's told me to be like John Lennox, but he's the number one Christianity expert in the world.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm number 3,217.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_03: I can't I can't be an expert the way that John Lennox is an expert.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_03: And that's true, but what he was most effective at in this hour and a half, you can do and you are called to do.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: You can do that first thing that John Lennox did, which is speak to Stephen's conscience.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: And you can say to people, where are you at with God?
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: What is it that you believe about God?
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: Which is another way of saying, like, what are you doing with the knowledge that you have?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: You might not be able to speak to the intellect of people the way that John Lennox can.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: I can't either.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: But perhaps we can speak to the conscience the way that John Lennox did.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: And perhaps we can be that witness.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_03: And in being that peaceful, non-anxious presence, we can speak to the heart of people.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: In the words of Sam Chan, the evangelist from Sydney, we can become our friends' unofficial chaplain.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't you appoint yourself as unofficial chaplain to your friends and model that non-anxious presence?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because your peace in the midst of their lives will communicate more than a thousand apologetic arguments.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well, there's one other thing that you can do, whether you're a Christian or not a Christian, you can do 321.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: You can go to 321course.com and you can see life according to Jesus.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe if you're not yet a believer, you can have the glory of Jesus presented to you again.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you might find yourself believing.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: Faith is not something you drum up from within yourself and offer to Jesus.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: Faith is something he pulls out of you when he shows you his glory.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: 321Course.com is a way for him to show you that.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: 321course.com is also a good place for you to go if you're a Christian because you can see the ways that you too might preach to people's consciences, preach to people's hearts.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it's a great tool that you can pass on to your friends.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's totally free.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: We'd love you to do that.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: 321course.com.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_03: That'll do us in this video.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: If you're still with us on the video, this video is definitely worth a like, I would say.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't you share it around the place and subscribe to the channel so that we can see you on the next one?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: God bless.