Latest / The Kulturecast / Iceman (2017) — "Pitamei, Pitamos."

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Iceman (2017) — "Pitamei, Pitamos." · The Kulturecast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Weird way.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: All right, Finally, hello everyone, and welcome to the Culture Cast.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: I'm your host, Chris Dashu, and I'm joined by my
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: two good friends all the way from the world of academia.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: He's your friend of mine, doctor David Pearl Mutter from
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Texas Tech University.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Hello again, it's Chris and all the.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: Way from the West Coast. He's the coastal elite of
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: your dreams, your friend and mine, the host of Richard
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Hadam's paranormal Bookshelf Richard had him.
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: Well, here's the part where I usually quote a line
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: from the movie. But I don't know what the hell
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: these people are talking about.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I don't speak ration folk. On this episode of the
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Culture Cast, we are talking about a film that has
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: no discernible well, it has dialogue, but not dialogue that
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: you would understand because there's no translation for the dialogue.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: We're talking about twenty seventeen's Iceman. So the film is
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: directed and written by Felix rand Now it stars Jurgen
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: Vogel as the titular Iceman. No, not Richard Kuklinski. We're
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: talking about Otzi the Mummy, found in the early nineties
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: in the Oatzel Alps, which I believe is in Switzerland
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: or I guess it's the Austria Italy Italian border more specifically.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: And he is the oldest known European mummy, and this
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: film is the story, the fictionalized story of his life.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know how true or real it is, because
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: again they're making suppositions and ideas based off of a
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: corpse and the damage to the corpse that has been
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: found in the years since he was found. So it
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: is a revenge film set against the backdrop of the
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Neolithic period in Europe. And we follow Oatsy as he well,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: I guess he's not called Oatsie in the film. He's
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: key Lab And so he is getting revenge on other
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Neolithic clans who have come in and taken a religious
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: artifact from his clan, killed his wife and family, and
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: his only surviving part of his clan anymore is a
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: is a young baby, which he has now taken Cub.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: I guess what is that the Japanese film with Lion
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: and Cub I think is what it's called. I'm probably
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: misquoting it, but it's a wolf and cub excuse me,
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: and it's you know, it's a similar story where we
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: have an older man with a baby on his back
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: looking for for the people that killed his clan, and
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: it's a revenge story across the Alps. I don't know
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: what else to say because there's no dialogue. It's Richard.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask you first, because doctor Perlmutter picked the film.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: What did you think of Iceman from twenty seventeen?
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: I keep in my mind, I keep calling it ice wish.
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: It really is a revenge story, you know, Okay, there
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: is a lot to say. I have a lot of feelings,
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: but and I don't I don't want to just vomit
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: out all of it. I, you know, would like it
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: to be part of an intelligent conversation because David told
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: me he's a professor, and you know, kids are gonna
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: be listening. I don't want to go. I gotta make
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: it look like I got thought in my head. So
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: I'll start slow and say that the conceit of the
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: artistic conceit of the movie is not new. In my
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: day was called Quest for Fire. But it is interesting.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: It is a obviously one hundred percent imagined story about
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: an incident that you know, or a series of incidents
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: that may have occurred over five thousand years ago. And
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: part of the gimmick is that this is a story
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: that we will consume visually.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: Now.
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: I had the displeasure of going to USC film school
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: where an academic gun was placed to my head and
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: I was told to make five short films no sink sound,
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: meaning a story must be told visually. So that is
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: one of the That is one of the things this
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: movie is hanging it's hat on, if you will. It's
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: its ability or not to tell a compelling story completely visually,
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: which which means we're leaning hard on visual storytelling. Did
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: it do that? Okay? And in what way? I'm gonna
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: say that I was not blown away by this movie.
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: I was not blown away by its ability to live
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: up to the artistic standard it's set for itself. And
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: I was not blown away by the story I decided
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: to tell. And we can get into details.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Later, Doctor Pearl Mutter, I pose the same question to you, sir.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: I'm approaching this movie with a couple of questions, and
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: I think it answered them more successfully that I think
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: Richard is describing for him. Partly, I was fascinated by
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: the original story we just quickly, a corpse was found
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: in the Alps, and I think it was finally determined
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: that it was in the border of Austria. And literally
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: this is like the most famous celebrity in the history
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: of Austria. This is sort of cult of Atsei in
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: Austria today because he's considered like the first Austrian. I
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: was born about one hundred and fifty two hundred miles
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: away from where this is. And we're going to talk
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: a little bit about later about the idea of mountains
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: and verticality in Central European culture. So part of it
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: is the cultural lens watching this, and then the historical lens.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: So this body was found, and at first the people
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: had found it, and then the police thought, oh, this
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: is like a recently dead climber who was lost or something,
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: or even a crime like they was talking about like
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: this is a true crime case. It is a true
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: crime praise, as we'll talk about at the moment, and
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: it is a fascinating to crime prase. We actually know
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: quite a lot about this person. In fact, we know
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: more about this person than any human being who ever lived.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: Until you start getting into you said, mummy, I mean,
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: this was not a purposeful burial. But this is like
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: somebody who was frozen in the ice. I mean, a
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: lot out of a science fiction story.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: And I guess closing what a natural mummy as opposed.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: To yeah, a natural mummy, yeah.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Processional mummy.
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: Let me just have a couple of details here because
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: I think it sets the for what the movie had
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: to work with, right, Because first we've got this missed right,
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: Like they discovered he's fifty three hundred years old and
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: incredibly well preserved. His clothing, most of it is well preserved,
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: and I'm going to talk about that a second. His toolkit. Now,
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: this era is often called sort of a liminal or
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: like between era, because you have the very beginnings in
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Mesopotamia of like agricultural civilization. You definitely have elsewhere agriculture.
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: The people in this area were sort of in between
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: hunting and gathering in agriculture. And it's really important to
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: know these are not some savages out of a nineteen
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: thirties movie. I just want to give you just this
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: a quick list. Okay, on him was found a bear
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: skin cap, a hide coat, what was probably a cape,
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: goat leggings, sheep woincloth, calfskin, built pouch tools, a copper axe, shoes.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: He had a half finished bow, which is an interesting
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: murder true crime clue because he probably had a real
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: another one that he'd lost and he was desperately trying
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: to create a new one. And then he had a
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: deer hide, quiver, lint, dagger, birch bar containers, a backpack
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: frame that's really interesting. You didn't think back people back
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: then had frames for their backpack like modern backpackers today.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: He had a stone disc which was probably part of
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: the belt. He had medicinal herbs which have been shown
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: as like they actually help in like reducing pain and
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: things like that. He had tinder in his belt pouch.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: He had a full like stones and things for like
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: a different other things. The point was that like this
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: guy had like all I think was about sixty separate items,
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: all of which were made at a very high level
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: of crafts personship, right, So you think he was part
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: of a community. He didn't make them all by itself.
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: So we've got this clues that he was living in
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: a village, he was integrated into a community. This is
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: a community of people who were fantastically skilled at what
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: they do, and he at first they thought, well, he
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: just wandered up there and he died. But the ubo
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: thing like he was constructing on that's interesting. And then
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: an arrowhead, an arrowhead is found in his shoulder that
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: severed an artery that probably he'd probably died of bleeding out.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is the forensic files, you know, fifty
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: three hundred years BC. And then now there's been some
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: discussion over the years. One of the early reports said
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: that he had the blood of four other people on him.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: That's sort of been debated. I don't think that's for certain,
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: but he was murdered. Somebody killed him for some reason.
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: So I just wanted to set up that this is
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: like the great historical mystery in Central Europe. Like you
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: can stop somebody on the street in Austria and the
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: tyroleum northern part of Italy and Switzerland and like, oh
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: it's see, oh yeah, you know, here's my theory of us.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: So it is sort of like a famous case in
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: the United States, like you know, John Benet Ramsey or
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: mor Murray or something like that that somebody has done
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: a movie on. It's that level of interest and excitement.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, to your point and I
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: think also to Richard's point, I think for me it
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: gets it gets to what makes this story interesting because
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: to concoct a narrative age and again this, I would say, Richard,
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: you probably agree to concoct a narrative around this because
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: this is I mean again, there is a murder at
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: the center of this. But I don't know any more
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: than anybody else if this is how it happened or
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: to what extent. And I almost feel like, yes, I
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: appreciate the artistic integrity one is holding oneself to by
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: saying we're going to do it in this language. It's
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: going to be based in the reality of the language.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: We're going to have the quest for fire style, removal
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: of dialogue. So it's just the story being told in
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: very broad strokes, because when you have a story like
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: this without dialogue, that's how you have to tell it.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: And that's the only kinds of stories you could really tell.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: If you are trying to tell a dialogue heavy story
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: without dialogue, you can't. It's well, yes, it hard. This
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: has to be done in broad strokes, and it just
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: has to be well.
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: I wish it had been done in broader strokes. When
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: first you established they have language, but now, because of
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: the conceit that you've placed upon yourself, it makes no
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: sense to have them use that language, when in fact,
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: if they have language, they would be using it far
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: more than what we saw. There are long stretches of
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: people sitting in silence with each other, which would no
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: more happen with them than it would happen with us.
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: Because they're not going to subtitle it. They don't want
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: to alienate the audience. And suddenly the trick is revealed
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: and the artifice of the conceit is revealed. If you
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: don't want to have dialogue, that's fine, But I would say,
• 11:46
  Speaker 4: why not strive for displaying a far greater range of
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: human interaction than what we get. How many smiles did
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: you count in this movie? Was their laughter? It implies
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: them that not only were these people basically savages. And
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: you know, if we saw a movie today that followed
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: the exact same storyline, we would go this is the
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: lowest form of what we are as human beings, just
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: murdering for the sake of the last murder, which begets
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: the next murder. I would have been fascinated to see
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: how they were able to convey and illustrate far more
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: subtle and complex human emotions, which I think you can
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: do and reveal more about an ancient civilization than what
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: we would have justice. I watched this movie and I
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: feel like, yep, they are a bunch of murdering jerks,
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: and I'm not sure beyond the fact that they had religion,
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: I don't know how much more I was getting. I
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: really would have loved to come away from this feeling
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: that I knew a range of characters and was and
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: was also able to discern their characters in opposition to
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: each other in particularly in particularized way, the way you
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: do when you watch a movie, rather than dust, well
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: there is a woman, okay, when she got attacked. There's
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: a child, and well he got murdered. There's some guys
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: that are killing each other. That seemed to be what
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: I was getting from the movie, and that's that's a
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: perfectly legitimate way to tell a story about a society
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: in the past. Feels like a lost opportunity.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: And I actually, I you know, that's the thing to
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: doctor Pearlmutter's point, like this is such a big case
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: and such a point of importance, I think, especially for
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: understanding that society and having a better understanding of that world.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: And you know, Richard, I know you have your own
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: podcast where you talk about you know, parapsychology and paranormal
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: history and stuff like that. Like these cases are important.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: These things are important because we don't get the opportunity,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: like with what doctor pearl Mutter said, to have all
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: these things on one person at once. Most of the
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: time something like this is like we find this thing
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: in the ground, or we find this here, but we're
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: not finding all these things on one person to paint
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: a better broader picture of who they are. And the
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: movie almost rejects all of that, which is unfortunate.
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: Well, well, what's funny is that is that the background
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: of the case apparently is known to a particular geographical area.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: And I think a large part of the audience for
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: this movie came in with a lot more information that
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: I came in with, and and may have picked up
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: on things based on a general knowledge of the case
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: and hearing about it in the local media that they
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: were able to They were able to glean a lot more.
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: You know, there were more easter eggs for them that
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: were paying off than there were for me. But but hey,
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: you know, it's twenty seventeen. Everyone's got access to see
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: this movie, and and you're you're telling a story for
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: a broad audience, and if they wanted you know, again,
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: you you're you're setting up the game board yourself. So
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: if the game board is, here's what we found, and
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: so our story is now based on these items, sort
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: of an Apollo thirteen. You know, here's what's on the table.
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: Let's see if we can put it together into a narrative,
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: which again may be exactly what they're doing, and for
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: a particularized audience, they may be scoring big. But for me,
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: coming to a blind I didn't have any of that,
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: and so I'm just watching what they're giving me.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: Richard, You've raised a really interesting point which I'd love
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: to have you talk to one of my classes about.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Is that I watch movies for many different reasons, but
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: I certainly enjoy reading and watching cultural content sometimes to
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: take me somewhere where I've never been. I probably am
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: not going to go and learn about the lives of
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: people that I can't experience directly, right, So, like I
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: appreciate watching there's a wonderful Indian television series called Puanchayat
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: which is set in an Indian village, a small village,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: and it's the politics and the personalities and the loves
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: and you know, the revenge fantasies of these people in
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: this Indian village. And it's fascinating story to me because
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: on the one hand, like they'll they'll speak in I
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: believe it is Hindi, the language there, but they'll have
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: a lot of englishisms and they'll talk about somebody studying
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: for their MBA. I mean, obviously it's an international context
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: as well as a local context. But I appreciate that
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: they didn't overly translate everything because they were nervous that
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Americans were watching and had to explain that. They didn't
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: ever stop and say, well, for our American viewers, let
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: me just explain why I'm drinking from a gorge here,
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: you know, in India, you know, I mean, and I
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: know that's not what you're saying, but I guess I'm
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: more willing for it to be to lose some of
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: the understanding in sacrifice to the cultural specific that that
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: makes me see another culture. And I just want to
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: add one other example and then I'll I'll stop being
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: a professor and going off on tangents. But so I
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: did grow up not far from there, and we recently
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: went through the Winter Olympics. And you may have noticed
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: that besides the us A, that most of the people
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: who do well in the Winter Olympics are winter countries,
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: right like Norway does well. Switzerland. It's I mean, this
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: is this is the big thing for Switzerland every four years,
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: just is to participate and win in the Winter Olympics.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: There's not a lot the Swiss you know, American football
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: team or soccer team does not typically win the FIFA
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: Cup or something like like that. So the winter sports
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: are the pride of Switzerland. And like a lot of kids,
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: I was ski taught to ski by by taught the
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: ski by the way meant your parents gave you to
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: a guy who was actually ninety nine percent at the time.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: It was somebody who had been on the Swiss Olympic team.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: That's what they did after they retired, right, And this
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: guy had actually been on the Swiss Olympic team, and
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: his method of teaching children to ski was take them
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: to the top of what I thought was a mountain.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: I mean they thought it was a hill, but I
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: thought it was a mountain, and said, okay, get to
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: the bottom. I will meet you there. And what's funny
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: is i've met I mean, I still have in contact
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: with Austrian, South German, Swiss, French Alp friends, and they said,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: that's still the way they teach kids the ski and
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: there is no bunny slope. There's only the slope with
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: the black flag and the skull and cross bones for
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: children there. So but this comes from and Richard, We're
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: going to get all filmed schoolly here. So I'm sorry
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: to to you know if you have any bad memories
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: of that. But like you know, one of the contestinal
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: American things in the world of film is the western right,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: Like that's when people think of like American film, what
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: is an American film? Oh, Western and maybe twenties gangster movies,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: but the western right, well in Europe, for us it
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: was the mountain film. In fact, that's a that's a
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: genre of film, the mountain film. Whereas Americans thought about
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: conquering horizontally, like you know, we will conquer the West
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: and go brave dangers in the West and that proves
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: our manhood. I swear to you that. And again I've
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: talked to people just recently that I have to that's
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: still part of the idea of the mountain must be conquered,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: because the mountains in your backyard, right, but it's still
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: twenty thousand feet ten thousand feet. It's dangerous and uh,
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: I mean there's even today for example, you know the
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: Edelweis flower, a beautiful little flower. It only grows at
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: a certain point at the height of the tree line, right,
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: And like it is still a tradition. You want to
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: get married, did you climb together edelvice to give to
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: your beloved to prove you're a man? Right? I trust me.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: At this point I've been told, like people at twenty
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: three that this is still a thing. Okay, so the
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: conquest of a mountain was the big deal, right, as
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: in like going west and like making it to California,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: and the wagon train was for there. So again there
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: is that, and you're absolutely right. Maybe it should have
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: been stated somehow. I personally like this, a word I
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: don't often use, like like or dislike that. I think
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: I appreciated this film and I felt it was more
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: successful and it could very well be because these twin
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: cultural lenses of the history and then the culture that
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: I was part of when I was a youth, it
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: seemed to resonate more with me, and maybe it didn't
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: succeed and that third part of making that accessible and
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: interesting to people who are outside of that culture. So
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: maybe we're both right. I hope.
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: Well, it is funny, you know, it does bring me
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: back a film school, and there were so many films,
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: and that was probably one of the most ontologically challenging
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: aspects of film school, was was getting out of the
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: notion of film as entertainment because we had to watch
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: movies from other cultures and in other styles where it
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: took a two hour lecture. It's like, I can't just
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: show you this movie. That'd be like again, that'd be like,
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: you know, taking to the top of the mountain and saying,
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: I'll meet you at the bottom. I'm gonna have to
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: explain to you how the Japanese thought about visual storytelling
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: and what their culture was and what Kasawa was thinking.
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: And we had to pack a bag to go on
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: that journey, and even then we felt stranded half the time,
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: but at least we had it, and I did become
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: very grateful for those lectures preparing me for Rooda was
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: about to see, because then by the end of the semester,
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: I was like wow. And of course that was my
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: experience in college, both in literature and in film, was
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: really learning how to meet that artist more than halfway,
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: and really bringing so much of myself to artistic encounter.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: And I'm sure if I had studied art history, it
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: would have been the same with a painting that was
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: forty years ago. And I've spent the last forty years
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: toiling in this other area, which is not being the
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: recipient but rather in America, being being the provider and
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: and the the the the sort of responsibility that I
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: feel about how it is I'm going to engage my
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: audience and the first thing and and and so and
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: and unfortunately, and it's so great that that we're sort
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: of coming out of from these two separate angles, because
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: I'm looking at it going what would my responsibility be
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: if I was making this movie? And I and I
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: and again, I sort of get back to that that
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: point of if I'm going to take you to a
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: culture I know you're very unfamiliar with, then the first
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: thing I want to do is is see in how
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: many different ways I can catch you catching yourself going, oh,
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: my god, they're just like us. I was expecting to
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: really be at sea, and five minutes in, that's my uncle,
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: that's my grandma, that's my brother, that's my wife. Human
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: beings are human beings, ah, which I think is probably
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: a lot of what gets you through that Indian show,
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: because I think that's always it's like, you go, you
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: see Shakespeare, and the most the most gratifying performances are
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: the ones that make you go, hey, I know I
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: must be smarter than I thought. I get Shakespeare because
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: I got every single minute of that three and a
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: half hour play. But that's because the actors and the
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: director and the props and costume and set design were
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: all designed to make you go. You think you you
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: think you're gonna be bored. You think this has nothing
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: to do with you, but it does. Shakespeare is We're
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: gonna show you tonight. People are people are people. The
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: people that I saw in this movie, I wanted to
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: engage with more, and I want and I wanted to
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: feel more like, oh fuck, that's me up there, and
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: I would do the same damn thing. And I don't
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: know if I felt that way, and I'm not sure
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: from any character's point of view, because there certainly was
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: not a character going no, no, do not pick up
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: the cudgel against your neighbor. It's like theodoric of Ror.
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: Wait a second, what if we don't kill each other
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: all the time?
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Nah? And that, I think for me is the thing
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: that's a little unfair about the movie. Is that to
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: your point, Richard, and well to both of your points,
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: I give myself over to a movie willingly pretty much
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: every time I watch it because I feel like that's
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: what the filmmaker would prefer. And as I've as I've
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: gotten older, I choose to view things up ahead of
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: time about the movie less and less because I'd like
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: to actually just go into it completely, you know, a
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: la prima just blind, And so I wanted this to
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: be more than just a and I'm again it's not
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: an issue that it's a revenge. It's just I wanted
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: it to be more than that. In a way because
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: to your point, Richard, I do actually have an interest
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: in this time in history, and as someone who enjoys
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: history and cultural culture, and especially like cultural history or
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: anthropological history, I would have preferred to have more of
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: a understanding doesn't need dialogue of the world and see
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: the world kind of work for a minute before all
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: of a sudden we have people being you know, raped
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: and murdered. I mean it's pretty graphic stuff too, you know,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: that's the and you know, I appreciate that in a
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: way because I think the director has made the choice
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: to not stray away or look away from the violence.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: And I mean the violence of people being hit upside
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: the head with rocks on sticks is not pleasant. It's
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: rather grotesque.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: It just looks painful, and that's part of it. I'm like,
• 26:00
  Speaker 4: oh god, they're outdoors and everything's dirty, eating each other.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: To death with rocks, Like you know, his wife just
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: gets like stabbed in the chest with a giant stick, essentially,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Like it's it's pretty grotesque stuff.
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: What I would give for a well appointed hotel lobby
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: with a bar right it up?
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Now, you know, Like that's the thing if if I
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: want to be transported to this world, and again I'm
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: not not aware that this world is not one that
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: if I could, you know, if you could live in
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: any time other than this one, this would not be
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: at the top of my list. This would be this
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: would be like avoid with all avoid, with all choices,
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: anything but this because it's not somewhere that I would
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: have any interest in participating in the daily life of
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: going and pooping in a bucket effectively and covering it up,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: you know, a dirt bucket and covering it up with
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: my own hands. Like I don't like camping that much,
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: so I don't want to live in that world permanently.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: But again, like there there are time and places where
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I would go back to and live, this is just
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: not one of them. So I kind of wish there
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: was more of that table setting because they kind of
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: just start mashing the action figures together very quickly, and
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: for me, you kind of lose what I was hoping for,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: which was to better understand the world that Oatsie lives
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: in and understand why these things are happening, because to
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Richard's point and to your point, Doctor pearl Mutter, this
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: is not a world of savages, but they're really portraying
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: it like one, and I think that kind of takes
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: the piss out of the movie because they're not savages,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: and they're really not giving them the opportunity to show
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: us that. They're pretty much cutting them off with the
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: kneecaps immediately.
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: Okay, well, let's let's talk about that for a second,
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: because I want to understand this. Much of the what
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: we're okay, what we're not seeing is a village attack
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: another village and take the women. You know, yeah, take take.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: Here a second. Richard. I'm sorry to tuirup to you,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: but just on the point of Chris may and both
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: of you made yeah, I would rank the unsuccessful part
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: of this film related back to the reason why I
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: brought up this incredible richness of the material goods that
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: were found with Putsi right, like greater than technically than
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: like King tuts Too. You know, this is the King
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: tuts Too of the Neolithic. I mean there have been
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: burials with like a horse and like golden armor and
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: things like that, but the stuff that was found suggested
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: this incredibly civilized, rich material culture. And yeah, absolutely, and
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: this is something I'd love to get to. The film
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: didn't take its time at the very beginning. If I
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: were the interfering studio head, my notes would be, let's
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: get to know these people, let's understand them a little bit.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: You can take ten minutes, you can take five minutes
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: and show somebody making an axe and somebody making you know,
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: their cape or something like that. Let's understand that these
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: are not just people wandering around naked and dirty killing
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: each other all day long, because I I feel like
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: there was a missing prelude to the exponential violence, right
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: and the revenge fantasy. And I want to just reference
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: one of my favorite film texts, which I don't know
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: whether it was ever offered in film school. I certainly
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: recommended to my students, Chuck Jones. Chuck Jones, the master
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: of the Loony Tunes Mary Warner Brothers cartoons, right, was
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: one of the great directors and producers and writers of
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: the artists of those cartoons. I owe. I owe a
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: lot to him. He wrote a beautiful autobiography, artistic autobiography
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: called Chuck a Muck about his creative process and there
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: and he makes this really great point about how, you know,
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: they were so limited, like they had to be exactly
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: six minutes long, and there were seven thousand topics they
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: couldn't cover, but that helped the art, you know, to
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: be so limited. But he makes this other point, which
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: I've always shared with my students. He said, bugs Bunny
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: is the American hero. He's just sitting there in his
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: hole being minding his own business when somebody comes along,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: a hunter. Somebody comes along and pokes him or tries
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: to take his home, or tries to kill him, and
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: so bugs Bunny looks at that person and says, of course,
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: you realize this means war. And then bugs Bunny gets revenge.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: But he said that was the American story, and they
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: repeated it over and over again. And that was Pearl Harbor,
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: the idea that we were sitting there minding our own
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: business when an enemy comes and provokes us, and okay,
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: we're going to teach you, right, And so I thought
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: it interesting that this Central European movie did use that.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: But there was one implication of culture there. These people
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: are not portrayed as like warriors preparing for war. They
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: don't sit around, you know, shaking their spears up and down,
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: like some nineteen thirties movie you know about Africa South America.
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: But there should have been more establishing their culture and
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: learning more about them. And I do feel that that
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: was saying it would have helped somewhat place these people
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: in time and space. Please go ahead, it.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: It would have. I was gonna say when it was
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: revealed that the object of this massacre was a sacred
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: object or an object of symbolic value. You know, it
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: wasn't something that we immediately understood as well, of course
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: that's a weapon, or that's money, or that's you know,
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: a skin that can be used because winter is coming.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: It is a thing used in a religious ceremony. So
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: that that was interesting and that implied a you know,
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: a particular kind of culture.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: But people can't see this, but Richard just held up
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: the sacred object, the sacred object. Yes, sacred gods before.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they peer, they peer into our they peer into
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: our spaces from lower places, but they are the gods
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: amongst they walk amongst us.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: To me, the uh. Again, the unfortunate thing was was
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: was to not reveal little little bits of recognizable humanity
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: in in in the vast number of characters that we
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: see that go beyond the more basic sort of like
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: you know, I see you, there's a threat? Is there
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: a threat?
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: Is there not?
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: A threat? Friend? Foe? That that to me would have
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: given would have given everything that happens in the movie
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: more immediate weight. It would have drawn me in as
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: a human being, because again, it would have been that
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: moment of me going oh before walking into the theater,
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: I would have expected. I was just going to see
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: a lot of monosyllabic savages, you know, going about rather
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: basic functions. We must eat, we must have sex, we
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: must give birth, we must bury our dead. But and
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: then we must get revenge when the important thing is stolen,
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: and and and I and I found that again. I
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: found that disappointing because I was not I was. My
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: prejudices were reaffirmed. People in the past weren't as human
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: as we are now. There was no humor, there was
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: no complexity of emotion. Uh, there was just you know,
• 33:29
  Speaker 4: Kronk and Donk, almost like in a cartoon strip, holding
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: clubs and bashing each other over the head. And it
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: felt like it did a disservice to me. And the
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: characters in the film.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Confused unga bunga noises being made, I mean, it's you know,
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: it is it is. Doctor Pearlmutter sent me that meme. Uh,
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: you know, confused oga bunga like it's it is. That's
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: it's unfortunate because there's so much more to this than
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: than than that, and there's so much more going on here,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: and there is a you know, it's almost in a
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: way also like trying to be a Western because and
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean again, it has Franco Niro in it.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Who you know, I mean again, When I think of Westerns,
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: especially Westerns have a certain variety from a certain country
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: cough cough Italy cough cough, I think of Franco Nero,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: And so I know that the Pills are trying to
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: be a Western, and I don't. I mean, I get
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: that that's the revenge part of it, but I guess
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: this is such a This is such a more interesting,
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: complex story that could have been told here, and I
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: feel like they just wanted it so badly. They forced
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: the story of the Iceman into this as opposed to
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: the other way around.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: It is filmed in a beautiful setting, but that's not
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: the same thing as visual storytelling. And they have a
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: lot at their disposal, and I've you know, I may
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: not be the brightest bulb, but I had trouble distinguishing
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: characters from each other. That's casting, that's costume, that's makeup,
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: that's hair. I had trouble even locking in on the
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: main character visually. I think you can watch Kursaw was
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: run with the sound off, and because of composition understand
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: when a scene is one of conflict or not. I
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: think you can watch Raiders Lost Arc with the sound
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: off and have a and be able to follow the
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: story simply because of visual construction. I'm not sure I
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: saw a lot of that. I saw action being covered,
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: but I'm not sure I saw it being covered in
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: a way where the actual composition within the frame was
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: helping me understand another level of complexity or or just
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: illuminating what was actually happening there. I think they were.
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: They were depending on the beauty of the background to
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: to to bowl us over, and the beauty of the
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: background did bowl me over. But I think there was
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: a way for me as a viewer. And again because
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: we're coming at something that is it's axually a silent movie.
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, you can watch mernow and and get more
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: of a story and more emotionally involved. And I I
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: mean again, I don't want to keep comparing it to
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: Death Wish, but it was kind of it was kind
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: of Death Wish when when the dust settles.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's two points here. One is both of you
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: have said something that's it's true in the movie, it's
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: not true in history, and it's it is a failure
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: of the movie not to give you the correct impression.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: If you read a lot of the anthropological literature about
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: tribal existence, you know, pre pre what we call, you know,
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: agricultural urban civilizations, you almost wonder like, why did we
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: give that up? Right? Like a lot of anthropologists have
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: talked about like the tribal people who you know, living
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: in natural areas. Of course, there's very few areas that
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: are unaffected by like giant civilizations and croaching on them.
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: But they live a pretty good life, you know. They
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: they have their there's I mean there's stress that they fish,
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: they hunt, you know, they gather nuts and berries. I mean,
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: they actually are pretty healthy. They have no sugars. There's
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: a wonderful book by Jared Diamond, The World Before Yesterday,
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: and he actually makes a list of all these horrible
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: things that our civilization. I'm seeing the cat got.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: This is the most I've ever seen your cat mess
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: with you on a recording, Richard, in ten years of
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: knowing you. This is insanity.
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: I'm so sorry.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: He knows that I'm here, Richard, he knows that I'm here.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: You should tell tell David, Tell David, I can I
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: can cut around this part. Tell David about what I'm
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: talking about.
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: When Chris visited our house almost two years ago, he
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: started calling our cat Fang. I'm like, why I call
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: him fang. He's like, look at him, And for the
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: reston I really looked at my cat's face and I
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: could see his like teeth kind of sticking down over
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: his mouth like a sabertooth tiger. I'm like, is that
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: is that? Okay? We took him to the vet. It
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: was not okay.
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: The cat literally the cat had all these teeth that
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: had to be removed, and the and the veterinarian said,
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: this is not your fault. This is a Jeanette. Certain
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: cats are was born and their teeth are bad. And
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: but she's like, look and she sures and his teeth
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: were like black and she's like, it happened to my
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: cat too, And I'm a veterinarian. It's not your fault.
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: Some cats are just you know, this is how they
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: come out. So we're gonna pull a lot of these
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: teeth so that it doesn't turn into a problem or
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: so anyway, Yeah, so Chris was was essential in saving
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: the life of this cat. And now this cat is
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: trying to speak to Chris.
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: Talented artist and a great person. You are a savior,
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: like you saved the cat god, I mean, really saves.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: The cast is buying you a point. I mean monkey
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: is monkey the official name of the cat. Yeah, okay,
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: Monkey is trying to remind us about ancient Egypt and
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: how we should be talking about cat worshiping. Civilization is
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: the only legitimate civilization. But certainly my cats bring us
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: up at least once a day. But vel be a
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: separate show, right, we can do one on Cleopatra or
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: something like that, bring up cats there, but I'm.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: In, I'm in.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: I'll pause and then just so pause, you'll pause.
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: Pause.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: Oh god, if we're going to get into purgent and
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: perfect and like a cat cat punge or something, then
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: the show. So, in fact, I was telling Chris I
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: wanted to do that movie flow that I thought was.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Which is one with with no I don't know if
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: you've heard of it, Richard, but it's yet another film
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: with no dialogue but that cat.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, so oh yeah. It won the Academy Award
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: for Best Animated Film a couple of years ago. It's
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: it's like a Lithuanian film. It has a cat. It
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: just follows a cat after some sort of catastrophic apocalyptic
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: event in what might be Atlantis. Does that get you
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: interested in a cat?
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Does it have to be?
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah? No, yeah, all right, yeah, I'm still in. I'm
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: still in.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: I feel like one of the Batman supervillain you know,
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: eggs exit. Excellent, let's get to it anyway if I
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: let me get back to on screw train here. So
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: we have a lot of evidence that their lives were
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: not nasty, British and necessarily short. If you got past
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: childhood and giving birth, which were the big killers of
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: people before modern medicine, and thank god for modern medicine, right,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: but if you got past that, people could live very
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: good lives. And they didn't have they didn't have sugar,
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: they refined sugar. They didn't have wars. I mean, they
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: had violence that there's actually there is evidence of violence,
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: like let's see, but they weren't savage by any by
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: by the old term which no anthropologist uses today, savage.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: So the movie didn't didn't get to that, like, they
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: didn't establish that. And and then the other part that
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: both of you said, which it's my personal pet Peeve.
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: And this is something like, I'm an older person and
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: I watched television and they have a there's a movie
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: or a TV show and there's four characters who all
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: look alike, speak alike, you have the same accent, And
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: I'm going like, you know, an old Hollywood producer would go, no, no,
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: there's got to be a large guy and a thin
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: girl and a tall guy. You can't like the Scooby
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: Johnny Norman David. Yeah, you can't have. You know, everybody's
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: from California and twenty four and all, you know, sounds
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: like with the same haircut. So they did make a
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: mistake here. First of all, these people, these people clean
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: clean themselves. These people were I don't think they were.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: They were filthy because I think first of all that
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: was you know, would lead to death. They had medicine.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: I me again, he was found with a medicinal pouch.
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: I would love to see some of that. Yeah, yeah,
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: some rambo, you know, some first blood where he's like
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: using the poultice on a wound or something. That'd be amazing.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, we have so much evidence that these
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: people cared for each other. You know, we find people
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: who they amputated limbs and people lived for years afterwards.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: That I mean, okay, that's pretty good with your copper
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: as right, And that means also people in the community
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: cared about you and loved you, and you know, it
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: would help you out there, So that the movie I
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: think missed in that direction. Absolutely, You're both right.
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: And how surprising and interesting would that be? Because the
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: way I'm reacting to what you're saying right now is
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: is would be great to feel during the movie to go, wait, Anton,
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: could they really do that? I mean, people talk about
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: doing amputations during the Civil War and I barely believe it.
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: And now you're going back five thousand years. But I
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: think that's always the fun part is realizing no, they
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: they had stuff, they knew things, they understood they you know,
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: that's always going to be the most interesting revelation is
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: that they weren't that different. You know, No, they they
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: and and and they had a lot of time and
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: a lot of generations to figure out which plants helped
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: and which ones didn't. End that the you know, they
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: they they were not they were not without uh, you know, resources, and.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: And a lot of that knowledge is lost now. I mean,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: we talk about you know, the Library of Alexandria burning,
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: and you know, like all of the lost knowledge there,
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: but the lost knowledge from being without technology in the
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: terms of the technology we have now to live off
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: of the land or use medicine in its raw herbal
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: or like truly medicinal form is not something that is
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: understood now the way it used to be, and that
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: knowledge is lost because that's not something we rely on.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, these people relied on it
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: because they didn't have the opportunities that we do now.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: But that doesn't diminish, like you said, what that was
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: at the time for them comparative to us. That's a
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: technological marvel and breakthrough that other civilizations may not have
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: been able to have at the time, and others weren't.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And I think it's interesting because this movie just I
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: don't think it ignores it per se. I just don't
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: think in a lot of ways, this movie is concerning
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: itself with telling a story about the Iceman, which is fine.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: I guess I don't really have an issue with it
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: just taking the Oatsy story and turning it into a
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: Western revenge story where we have a guy pursuing another
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: guy across the insert landscape here and what have you.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: I have no problem with that in theory. It's just
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: the trappings of this this time around. For me, they're
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: enough to carry it to the end because it's not
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: two hours, though I would say for myself, I almost
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: would have preferred it be two hours, because that would
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: have allowed there to be a little bit more bill
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: of the world that this film needs to build, because
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: you know, I think about other movies like this one, right,
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: the one that comes to mind that came out, oh,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: you know, only five years later, that I would actually
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: say people would be better off watching if you want
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: to see something that takes the gimmick of this ninety
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: percent of the way there. It doesn't do the shot
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: in the original language kind of conceit, which you know
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: at the time the director thought about doing it and
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: he ended up. Not The Northman from twenty twenty two,
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: the Robert Eggers film, it's very similar to this movie.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: It is a revenge film. That film is more psychedelic
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: because it leans into the Norse mythology of it all.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: This doesn't really lean into that. I think that would
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: have been interesting if this had leaned into a little
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: bit of the kind of what are the cultural trappings
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: of these people and how is that part of this?
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: And we get the idea that again like, oh, this
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: is religiously kind of the religious icon is why this
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: is happening, So there must be some importance. We just
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: never understand what the importance. The Northman I think does
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: what this movie does better, and because it's allowing there
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: to be dialogue, we get a better understanding of who
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: the characters are as opposed to just these are the
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: broad strokes here. And look, if the gimmick had worked better,
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: I don't think I'd be saying some of these things.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: But the gimmick doesn't work very well because you kind
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: of you kind of ignore what makes this story so interesting,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: which is it's not just a bunch of Neanderthals banging
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: one another over the head with a stick. If that's
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: what this was, I would have no interest in any
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: of this ring.
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: You know, Chris, while you were talking, the sound of
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: your voice provided me some time to think about something else.
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: And what I thought of was because I keep going
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: back to these sort of the revenge moves of the seventies.
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: You know, you go back to any era, but it's like,
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: what's novel about a movie like Death Wish or Dirty Harry,
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: is this notion of you know, you you can't do
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: that in this society. You know, we have laws. We
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: have evolved to a place where we live in a
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: sophisticated society of laws and human rights. And what you're doing,
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: Charles Bronson, and what you're doing Dirty Harry is is
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: applying a different, more primitive law that we all feel
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: we have moved beyond. And it's disturbing to us because
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: we all feel those impulses still but we don't act
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: on them anymore. But you're acting on them. And that's
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: what is compelling about those movies is that, oh, this
• 47:39
  Speaker 4: is interesting. You know, there's two different moral codes going here,
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: and one is ancient and one is is that what
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: we think about ourselves as being very sophisticated, and I
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: think and I think it is the inverse argument is
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: what I'm making is that I want the novelty of
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: this movie to be Oh, even back then they had
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: a more sophisticated way that is now surprising to me
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: thinking they had a very remitive way of approaching justice
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: or or you know, morality. But no, it was just
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: as sophisticated and and moral decisions had to be made
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: when these people went about seeking revenge, and not everyone agreed.
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: It felt like in this society, everyone kind of knows
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: what's going down. It's like, yeah, killer be killed. We're
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: gonna you know, we're going to burn down your village,
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: and we can pretty much count on you coming back
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: to burn down my village. And then the kouda grov.
• 48:31
  Speaker 4: Of course, at the end is is revenge has the final.
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: Word, yeah, and it is a disservice to those societies. Now,
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: we are always at a disadvantage when there's a people
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: that only have material remains and we don't have any writing.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: And of course that describes most human societies from millions
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: of years ago, our ancestors through today, I mean their
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: entire civilizations where the writing had the Indus River Valley civilization,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: where they had this magnificent civilization. We can't read their writing,
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: we can't understand that. We can only infer from like
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: the material culture, which was very very, very sophisticated. We
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: don't know whether they had law codes, right. We do
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: know that when people settle down in agricultural, urban based civilizations,
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: one of the first things they did was create law code.
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: And those law codes like for example, the Ten Commandments
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: or the codes of Hamurabi, you know, number of other ones.
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: Those seem somewhat bloodthirsty to us through the lens of
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: twenty twenty six, but for the time it was an
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: attempt to limit violent and to say like only the
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: state had control over violence, and like, if you commit violence,
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: the state will step in. It won't be one on
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: one vendetta there. So that in some ways the film
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: is talking about that this is a city a culture
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: that doesn't have these written down, but we don't know
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: whether they might, like we don't know whether they there
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: was an agreement. You know. First of all, the other
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: thing this thing does sort of gets wrong is that
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: in the archaeological evidence, these people were not isolated. You
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: find these incredible examples of like they were using a
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: metal that was dug up a thousand miles away. There
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: were trade networks all over Europe and the Mediterranean, so
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: people going to Spain, you know, there was today Spain,
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: They were going to what is today Denmark and coming
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: traders were coming back. So in some ways this is
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: like a nineteen forties view of pre urban civilization. You
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: know again with the village and people people just being
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: I think I can't get over what you have said before,
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: because it really struck me more. I was thinking about,
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: especially the second time I saw it, is like they
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: could have been cleaned up, they could have trimmed, they're
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: here and they still would have been authentic. Right, the
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: idea that like people back then were all dirty, it'll
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: sort of forty his notion not so keeping up with anthropology.
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: So yeah, and and and the one, the one sort
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: of metaphorical object in the film was this this box
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: that for a long time we don't know what's in it.
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: I mean it is it's the Lost Arc, It's the
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: suitcase from pulp fiction. It's like, what, what is so important?
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: But yeah, yeah, this is this is a prequel to Repo.
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: Man I I'm amazed you're so called film buffs. You
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: don't didn't notice that right away. It's sort of sad, I.
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: Know, it's God, yeah, I think we have now tied
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: it all.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Remember how at the end of this movie where Bruce
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: Willis showed up and it turned out it was actually
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: in the universe that Unbreakable took place in. That was
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: so strange.
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: What What's interesting is that is that once you once
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: you saw what was in the box, it was a
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: it was a reflective surface, it was something it was
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: mirrored that that that could only be seen. I mean
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: when you're watching movies and you know, when your your
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: head's been beaten in by your film. Uh, Professors, it's like, oh, reflection,
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: looking at one's self and considering what you see there?
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: And what and why is this the holy thing? The
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: thing that shows us an image of ourselfs? And what
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: do we learn when we truly see ourselves? So that
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: was interesting and I'm sure if I had to write
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: a paper, that's that's one direction I would have to
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: run toward. What's interesting is that this holy object was
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: then discarded and maybe like the Lost Arc, it was
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: just like too dangerous to be in in in circulation,
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: you know, it's got to be, and so he discards it.
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: You know, there's a there's the the again it's Theodoric
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: of York. There there's an there's an opportunity to truly
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: reflect upon oneself. And do you embrace that or do
• 52:56
  Speaker 4: you reject it? And and and what does that lead to?
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: What is the next what is the next significant event?
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: In the film, after self reflection is disregarded.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: Violence.
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the cycle of violence continues, right.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: Which is which to me it feels black. I know,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: it feels like it's such a bummer for me, Like
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: this's like that's all you wanted to say. It was like,
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: man is terrible, Like you have this opportunity to tell
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: effectively the only story that anyone's ever gonna tell about
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: this character, this real person in any like interesting, bigger
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: budget capacity, and your your takeaway is well, human beings
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: are terrible. Wah wah, Like come on, see it's like
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: those it's like those uh, it's like those magazines that
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: are the checkout saying like see, they're just like us,
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: like yeah, we know, no kidding, we came from them,
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: unless you don't believe that, but you know which, you
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: know wow? Uh Well the ice, the Iceman, the Iceman.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: I think for me, as a character who in the movie,
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: he's times the most interesting thing and the least interesting thing,
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: because I don't think they really ever even let us
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: understand who he is as a character, because that's not
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: the point of this movie, and that should have been
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: the point of this movie, is for us to understand
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: who and what and why he is not how he
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: had it?
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: He die.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: This is a practically an hour long gag, like an
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: hour long punchline. You get to that and this is
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: how we died.
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: You go back to freshman high school, freshman English, and
• 54:26
  Speaker 4: the first thing they tell you is for a character
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: to be a character in a drama, they change. And
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: I used to think that meant they change one hundred
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: and eighty degrees. They've all got to be Ebenezer Scrooge.
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: They start out mean, they end up nice. That's what
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: I thought it meant. But what it really means is
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: just the events in the drama have an impact on
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: the players one way or another. And I don't know,
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: I mean, I'm curious. I'm not sure where our guy Iceman.
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: Weird?
• 55:01
  Speaker 4: What? You know? What? What did he? What did he?
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: What did he learn? How did he change? What? What?
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: These events which are fictionalized, So this is not a documentary.
• 55:11
  Speaker 4: So this was a constructed narrative. We have to then
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: go okay, So a writer said I'm going to tell
• 55:17
  Speaker 4: you a tale, and and so the Esop's fable moral
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: of the story is don't be reflective or religion sucks.
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: What well, how did he change. I don't know what
• 55:29
  Speaker 4: do you guys think?
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Well, he definitely died and frozed and was frozen, that's
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: He changed from a guy to a dead iceman.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: He changed from semi solid to solid more less. Once
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: was man now is ice man? And scene make you
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: very much. I don't know what about you, doctor pearl
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: mutter he of academia, with a much hopefully more serious
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: answer than mine.
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: No, I I I appreciated very much this dialogue, and
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: I don't disagree with anything. I guess. I like a
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: lot of teachers, I like to give points for what
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: is done well as well as making it a case
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: that this was unsuccessful. Again, I don't like Thanks God.
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: God, I wish you were my teacher. I know the
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: same wheresh you had taught all my courses.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: Well, it sounds like you actually had pretty pretty inspirational
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: teachers in many ways. But but, but let's go back
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: to Arasawa, who also happens to be my favorite filmmaker.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: And indeed, if I could use a professor word that
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: chat CBT has stolen from me along with delving. You know,
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: I think I'm poor, poor J J R. J R. R.
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: Tolkien.
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: You know he loved the word delve, and now Ai
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: has stolen that. You can't use delve anymore or am dashes.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: So I my writing has been full of him. I'm
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: going off now. Sorry, I want to go back. I
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: want to go back to five and three hundred years ago,
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: when a man could use an m dash proudly without
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: having be accused of.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: He's communting with the gods.
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: Was a god a filmmaking, and one of his many
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: masterful traits was, Yeah, I think of like his film noir,
• 57:22
  Speaker 3: like High and Low, and you still think of Seven Samurai.
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: It's sort of astonishing by the way that the same
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: person made both movies, right, and yeah, you don't. You
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: could have no subtitles, like oh my gosh, the subtitles
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: are broken, and you would still basically understand a story.
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: But then also what you said, Richard, that the common humanity, right,
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: there's that that the so many beautiful moments in Seven Samurai.
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: It's about samurai in medieval Japan, who all three of
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: us probably have no connection to culturally or spiritually or
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: you know, or in our line, but each of them
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: becomes a finely etched portrait of a human being that
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: we probably have recognized in our life, or maybe we
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: aspire to be or see a little bit of ourselves
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: in them. And so by the end, when they're facing
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: you know, the final climax of this hurdlingly fantastic plot line,
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: we are cheering them on as if we were one
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: of the villagers there, hoping for their victory and success,
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: right and high and low. I want to just mention
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: high and low in the minute it's a Again. I
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: don't know how many people have seen the movie, but
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: like a rich man's chauffeur's son is kidnapped instead of
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: his son. Okay, I just said the basic plot, and
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: this rich man is set up to be at the
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: beginning of the he's a rich guy. He's living in
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: a big house. You know, while a lot of this
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: post war Japan, a lot of people are poor. He's
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: going to be a jerk, you know, And that's going
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: to be the storyline that like, he's going to be
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: the jerk and his poor chauffeur's son is stolen, he's
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: not going to care about it. And then he does
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: all these really good, kind hearted things and there's a
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: moment where the police officers are going, Wow, that's a
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: wonderful good man. We are going to work so hard
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: to solve this case, even if we were going to before.
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: But like we are, we care right, and you see
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: this again, this common moment of humanity. These are Japanese
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: police officers in the nineteen fifties. Again something not connected.
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: You know, I wrote a book about being a police
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: officer in the media, so I have some connection there.
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: But this movie did establish a couple of times. Well,
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: let me mention one scene I think they did which
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: I appreciated was at the very beginning, a woman is
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: giving birth, and we mentioned that one of the reasons
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: you read like, oh yeah, people back then, you know,
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: they didn't live past age thirty. They did, but the
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: death rate for children and forgiving birth was astronomical. And
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: all you have to do is go to graveyards that
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: go back to like the seventeen hundreds and you can
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: see nine children, you know, under the age of five,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: or three wives under the age of twenty two because
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: the death rate was so high. And they do show
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: the women coming together to help, and there's some tools
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: they're using, and there's some method and things like that.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: So I wanted more of that. That common humanity, and
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: so I think you both have diagnosed in the studio notes.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: What this film should have tried to do is focused
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: on the common venality a little bit more.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: And it's a shame that it doesn't, because there's not
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: going to be another movie like this about this particular
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: character case. However you want to view it, there will
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: be something, and there are other things, because you know,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: I watched one this afternoon after watching the film yesterday
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: about this case, just to understand the actual, real life
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: pieces of information surrounding it, and then the conjecture surrounding
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: how you know, how his death may have come about
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: depending on cultural things at the time. What have you
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: anthropological evidence, which again it felt more informed than this movie,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: and I did not expect the film to feel informative.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, I also didn't expect the
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: film to not honor the fact that it's taking place
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: fifty three hundred years ago. It's like, you can't get
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: ahead of some of that. If all you want to
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: do is tell a story that's essentially lone Wolf and
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: cub but in the oatzel Alps, fine, but then have
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: some dialogue or some or have something more interesting to say.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: Or do, because even Lone Wolf and Cub does more
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: than this. And it's a shame because there's a lot
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: too like about this movie. It's well shots, it looks interesting. Again,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: you don't get to see this kind of conceit done
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: very often. It's still done well enough that it doesn't
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: feel like a complete gimmick and a waste of time,
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: which is also I think a testament to this movie
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: that it doesn't feel completely beyond reproach. It just doesn't
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: get to where it should have gotten. And I think
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: the promise is and the premise were too high and
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: the movie doesn't live up to it. And that's unfortunate
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: because you know, not everybody is back it up a
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: truck to make this kind of movie, and so when
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: you see a movie like this, you're like, oh man,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: still better than it could have been. But I think
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Otzi deserved better.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 4: OZI.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: I'm fascinated, and I'd love to get to professional opinion
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: on the decision to use subtitles or not in other
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: kinds of contexts where the most of the movie might
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: be in English but there's people who are speaking another
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: language at some point. And one of the approaches I
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: take to this is. I remember some of the World
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: War Two movies of the fifties and sixties, maybe seventies too,
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: where occasionally they would cut away to some German officers, right,
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 3: and the German officers are looking at the map, and
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: there's no subtitles, but the German officers are looking at
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: the map, and you hear Normandy and the Americ Connor
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: and you know in Vazjung. And so somebody made a
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: decision that like, yeah, we don't need to translate exactly.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: We don't be to say, look, it seems like the
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: Americans are attacking at Normandy. They just felt it would
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: be overkill and the audience could figure it out. And
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: I sort of like that. I saw a film which
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: I didn't like at all called Hunter Killer, was about
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: a submarine movie, and they had the thing that always
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: bothers me the most is they had Russians in a
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: Russian submarine and they were I think they spoke Russian
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: for the first ten seconds and then they were translated
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: into English, and I thought, God, have the confidence for
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: Russians to speak Russian? Right, don't don't don't be feeling
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: the American audience desperately needs to hear Russians speaking wildly
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: variations of English.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: That's so funny you bring that up, because that was
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: the convention used in The Hunt for Red October. Sean
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 4: Connery's character, the Russian submarine commander was speaking Russian and
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: at a certain point and it's a very I forget
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 4: exactly when it was or what the emotional intent was,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 4: but there's sort of it's like, when we're finally sort
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: of getting to the heart of his character and it's
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 4: early in the film, he begans speaking English and you
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: almost don't notice that this line now has been crossed.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: But it's that same convention. It's it's the it work
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 4: it then.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, that's my question to you people all
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 3: ending with.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 4: British accents no matter where they are.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: Well, okay, so.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 4: Italian characters speak, but the Italian accent.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: Chernobyl was one of the great television shows of all
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: time in my hum mumble opinion on there, and I
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: heard the Chernobyl podcast and the showmaker of Chernobyl talked
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: about that. They originally thought, okay, well it's said in Russia,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: we're going to have people with Russia. We can't have
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: it be in Russian with subtitles for an entire television
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: series just wouldn't work for American audiences or any audiences
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: outside of Russia. But instead we're going to have Russian accents.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: And they finally it didn't work. It sounded like boris
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: bad enough. It did like people were laughing, and so
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 3: they switched. But they wanted consistency, so they got mostly English,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: Irish Scottish actors in a Scars guard, you know, and
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 3: a Scars guard in a pear tree. Right, that's right,
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: and it worked beautiful, just like it worked like fifty
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: years before in the I Claudius TV series, where okay,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: you know, we can't have Italian fifty people with Italian accents.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: They're all going to be British and the high class
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: Romans will speak upper class British and the low class
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: Romans will speak Cognate. It works, It can work, right,
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: But here's my question to you is would there be
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: a situation in a film you were making where you
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 3: would feel confident in not translating what somebody was saying
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: in another language? And what would that be? Or maybe
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: you have spaced that situation. I mean, the Mothman didn't
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: speak English, right, it's not multi lingual flies.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: I think is that what it was?
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 4: Well, if we're stepping aside from any sort of you know,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: commercial studio, because because that's always part of it is.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 4: You know, it's like, look, if we're distributing this film
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 4: and we know where we're exhibiting it, we we it
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 4: has to be something that people can get without working
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 4: too hard, So that's okay. But setting that aside, my
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 4: answer would be if the drama is is distinct enough,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 4: then for a a portion of time you can have
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: someone speaking a language the you know, the the predominant
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 4: audience does not understand, because it won't matter. They'll they'll
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: understand the intent. You know, if if in The Godfather,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 4: during moments of great I would say moments of great
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 4: violence or great uh romance.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 3: Past sexual restaurant scene would have been ruined if they
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: had you know, subtitles, right.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: I think when when you're dealing with certain emotions that
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: that are that are so so human and shared, which
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: is again acting out in sudden violence or acting on
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: sexual or romantic passion, we get it. And hearing people
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: speak words that back up those feelings can just be
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: really almost a sound effect music. It's like that the
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: you know whatever that sound of saying that word is
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: as someone attacks someone else and that just becomes part
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: of the emotion of the act. Or the more you know,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: ruining love sounds we make, that becomes a sound effect.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: So so those are the situations. But when you're trying
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 4: to get across, you know, plot, information that may be
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: lost but must be understood for the story to succeed,
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 4: you have to subtitle it whatever you have to do
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: to get the audience and to keep them on board
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: and enthrall and moving on to the next thing. That's
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 4: what you do, and what you probably end up doing
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 4: is solve those problems on the page. You don't. You
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: don't write scenes that take up where tons of information
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 4: has to be conveyed because you don't want to do
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 4: that anyway. So you really have to you know, you
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: have saddled yourself with a challenge. Now meet that challenge
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: or don't saddle yourself with it, because these challenges are
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: self imposed.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: And that's where I come in with this, Like the
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: choice in this movie to do this this way was
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: a self imposed challenge. It was a self imposed choice,
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: and I don't disagree with it. I think, you know,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: you know, Robert Eggers, to go back to my example
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: with The Northman, Robert Eggers almost filmed that film like
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: this one, where it was all in the traditional language
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 2: and there was no subtitles, and I think that could
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 2: have worked. And I think it could have worked there
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: because similarly to this movie, it's a very broad film
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: with a lot of broad themes that are about revenge.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: And you know, I mean, it's pretty much as Hamlet,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: but you know whatever I mean, you get the idea,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: like it doesn't necessarily need the dialogue to be understood
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: to get where the filmmaker is going with it. But
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: Edgar's decided to not do that, which as someone who
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: watches and enjoys his films, because he really takes, like
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: we've talked about with other people, a laser like focus
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: to make something that keeps to the gimmick that sells
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: the bit. You know, if you're gonna you're gonna do
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: the bit, you gotta sell the bit. You got to
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: commit to the bit. And Eggers doesn't with the dialogue
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: in that film. He films it where you like, we're
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: like you just mentioned Richard and doctor Pearl Mutter, we
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: have people speaking in English, accents or doing like, you know,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: some sort of Norwegian something of the northern countries in Europe,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: northern European country dialect, like kind of those accents, and
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: it works well enough, but Iceman just doesn't get there.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: And that's because I just don't think it's not worrying
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: itself really with there being any dialogue, because the story
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: that it wants to tell is just a revenge story.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: I think that it's the Iceman character because that's an
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: easy thing for people in Europe to understand, and that's
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: an expectation, like doctor pearl Mutter mentioned, with these mountain
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: movies as opposed to westerns, where we have a mountain
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: movie being made by a German director, Okay, that checks
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: a lot of boxes for certain people in Europe. This
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: is a film not made for an American audience. In
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways, we are three Americans enjoying a
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: film made for European audiences who are expecting a certain
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: kind of film, because, like doctor pearl Mutter said, if
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: you watch a mountain movie made by a European director
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: about a European thing, there might be certain expectations that
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: we do not understand, and maybe we're just not privy
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: to it, but I can't imagine that it's my issues
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: don't stem from that with this movie.
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 4: Well, another thing that movie is like this often do
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 4: and you'd probably want to go back further in human
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 4: history to a point where the language is extremely primitive
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 4: and basic, but you can very quickly teach the audience words,
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 4: and this movie does that a little bit. There are
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 4: there are certain words that we began to recognize, our
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 4: words associated with a person who has just died or
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: or you know, and sort of a benediction. Certain words
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 4: that are used at the beginning that that I thought
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 4: I recognized coming back, you know, at moments of like okay,
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm sort of putting my hand to your
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 4: face and then releasing your soul up into the heavens,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 4: and you can do that, and they could have made
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 4: a bigger point of the box. You know. It's like,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 4: you know, we're you know to Tanka to Tonka to
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 4: Tanka to Tanka. You know, you know, we could have
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 4: we could have locked in and and there is a
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 4: way to do that too, and that engages an audience
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: and you know, never a mistake to help the audience
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 4: feel smart and get involved and go oh, they said
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 4: that word again, and that's the word that means the thing. Okay,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 4: you know they could have done that, and they sort
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 4: they kind of halfway did that.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: I was thinking on your list of when to do it.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: Another situation and for I mean, I'm trying to think
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: of an example is when the main character is suddenly
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 3: immersed among people who are speaking a language the main
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: character does not know, then it would be good not
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: to translate to mimic the confusion of the main character.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, you're kidnapped by Romanian hitman. You want your
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: main character not to understand what they're saying. It's more threatening, right,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: So I wonder, you know, time travel going back to
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: fifty three hundred, than you wouldn't translate until they weren't.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: I guess. I guess the film that did this, and
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: I actually thought it was reasonably effective was Oh, my gosh,
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: Thirteenth Warrior.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: Or oh the one with Antonio Benderis.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Antendo Benderis is the.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: Michael Berry the one based on the Michael Crichton book
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: Eaters of the Dead.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, where he's he's the poet in the
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: court of Baghdad and he goes and he meets this norseman.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 3: Of course norsemen, right, and he doesn't understand anything they're saying,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: but he quietly watches them and sees their what words
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: are repeated around the campfire, and then he learns their
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: language and and and actually I think that's done pretty
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: well in a moment of him being an intelligent person
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: who knows words.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because that becomes part of the drama. That's that
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 4: is what it's about on the face of it. And
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: and now we're drawn into that challenge that that becomes
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 4: the conflict of the scene is how do we achieve communication?
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 4: So that's really interesting. Uh yeah, I've not seen that movie,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 4: but not.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: Probably like it. You'd like it, Richard. It's it's it's
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: a it's a fun little Michael Crichton. Everything Michael crichd
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: was getting adapted into the nineties, So we're gonna start
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: adapting things that maybe didn't need to be adapted into
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: a film movie. It's fine. Antonio Bendaris is playing I believe,
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: a Middle Easterner because he can yeah anyway and get
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: away with anything.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: That guy the Calleia Finn Bagdad, So he's a very
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: sophisticated guy. From a sophisticated civilization, by the way, in
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: that film, and we can leave them on this point,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: it's interesting they make the same mistake that this film
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: makes is the Norse culture is portrayed as primitive in
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: the sense of having no writing whatsoever. In fact, there's
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: a scene there where one of the Norse king says, hey,
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: you know, show me how you draw. I think he says,
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: draw words. What do you mean, oh? Writing? Okay, but
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: you know they did have they did have ruins, and
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: they also had like seven eight hundred years of contact
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: with the bordering civilization, so they it's unlikely that somebody
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: would have not known what writing as. I'm sorry, I
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: have to get that historical little footnote in there. But anyway,
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: thank you gentlemen. I've learned a lot. You both get
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: an A plus on the exam, that's right, so you
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: will be able to graduate and pay off your loans.
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: So I'm very it's all coming back. We have to
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 4: pay these back, thank god, Thank you, professor.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: So on that note, Richard, where can people find you
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: in the things that you were when you're not here
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: with me talking about movies taking place in the Alps.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 4: They can find me on my podcast, Richard Adam's Parent
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: and Normal Bookshelf. Come for the book, stay for the
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 4: over sharing. You can hear it anywhere you listen to podcasts.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 4: Check it out.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: And as for me, you can find me anywhere you
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 2: listen to podcasts as well, primarily podcasting over on iTunes
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: and Spotify would be helpful, like rate and review the
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: culture Cast over there and on Patreon patreon dot com
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: slash culture Cast, where you can kick a couple dollars
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: my way to hear Richard and Mike and I talk
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: about James Bond once a month if that's the thing
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: you're into. If not, you don't have to do anything.
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: So just listen to this for free. I mean it's
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: I'm not gonna stop providing this for free. So yeah, Richard,
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining me. Doctor Perlmutter, thank
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: you so much for picking the movie. And you know,
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: I guess I would say unga bunga, but that's probably
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: less what they were saying, so.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 4: That's a very offensive term.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: No oh, I just lost my Geico Caveman audience really quickly,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: So yeah, come on, come on back for the next
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: episode of Culture Cast.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: Stom