Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Is Australia’s Social Media Ban Working? Anika Wells on What Comes Next

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Is Australia’s Social Media Ban Working? Anika Wells on What Comes Next · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to the Happy Families podcast. December 10
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: last year, Australia did something that no country has ever
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: done before. They took on the tech giants. From December
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: 10 last year, under-16s were banned from social media, or
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: perhaps the better way to say it is, legislation was
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: introduced to keep social media giants away from our under-16s.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I was all for it. I made a lot of
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: noise on the podcast about it. I was fortunate enough
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: to be invited to Kirribilli House with the Prime Minister
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: and Communications Minister, Annika Wells. I'm still actually all for it.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: But nine, 10 months on, eSafety's own research says more
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: than eight in 10 kids are still using these platforms
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: and over half were never even asked their age. And
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: now the government wants to go further with a digital
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  Speaker 1: duty of care, which is going to cover AI. It's
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: going to cover games, chatbots, search, everything else that kids touch.
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  Speaker 1: So today I'm really fortunate to have a conversation with
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  Speaker 1: the Minister of Communications, Annika Wells. And I'm going to
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: ask her the obvious question. is this working and what's
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: coming next? And will it be any different? Stay with us.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: The Minister for Communications, Annika Wells, is next on the
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  Speaker 1: Happy Families podcast. Hello, this is the Happy Families podcast,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, where you get real parenting
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: solutions every single day. Now and then on the pod,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: we get to talk to some high-profile guests. Sometimes they're
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: running tech companies. Other times they're introducing products that can
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: help us to make our families function better today. It's
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  Speaker 1: the Federal Minister for Communications and Minister for Sport, Annika Wells.
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  Speaker 1: Annika Wells is the local member for Lily in Brisbane's north.
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  Speaker 1: She's raising a young family and on December 10 last year,
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  Speaker 1: Minister Wells ushered in Australia's world-leading and sometimes copied social
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  Speaker 1: media minimum age law, which as you now know, requires
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  Speaker 1: social media companies to restrict access to their platforms for
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  Speaker 1: our children under the age of 16. More than 20
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  Speaker 1: countries around the world are following Australia's lead. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I think it's fantastic. It's incredible, and it shows, I think,
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  Speaker 1: legitimate leadership on one of the biggest challenges facing parents globally.
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  Speaker 1: The next big step for Australia's online safety laws is
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  Speaker 1: the introduction of a digital duty of care. which goes
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: beyond social media to ensure that platforms, all platforms, are
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  Speaker 1: protecting kids from harm, whether it's gaming or messaging platforms, apps, AI,
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  Speaker 1: other digital devices, and so on. Minister Wells, what a
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  Speaker 1: privilege to have you on the podcast. Thank you for
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: joining me today.
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  Speaker 2: Good to be with you.
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  Speaker 1: I want to say upfront that I'm a supporter of
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: the legislation from last December. I back the law publicly.
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  Speaker 1: I still do. But I want to talk to you
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  Speaker 1: about the numbers. eSafety's own report in July, the three-month report,
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  Speaker 1: found use of age-restricted platforms had fallen from 86% to 81%.
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  Speaker 1: It was just a 5% drop in that period. More
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  Speaker 1: than half of children said that they were never even
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: asked for an age check. There are three or four
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  Speaker 1: other studies that have already been published that indicate pretty
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  Speaker 1: miserable results. I don't know how else to say it.
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  Speaker 1: They're just not good results. Your own regulator, the who
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: were not doing what they were supposed to do at
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  Speaker 1: a systematic level and said that it would decide on
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: enforcement by the middle of the year. It's now, what
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: is it, early October. What's happened here? How would you
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: rate this outcome?
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  Speaker 2: I think this has always been about cultural change and
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  Speaker 2: we know that will take time. I completely agree with
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: you that we would all like to see compliance be
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: a lot better than it is. That's why the eSafety
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  Speaker 2: Commissioner has begun investigations. But unfortunately for all of us
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: who are desperate to see our kids less addicted to
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  Speaker 2: their screen time and to social media platforms than they
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: currently are, This isn't a case of issuing a speeding
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  Speaker 2: fine on the spot and there being an immediate consequence.
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  Speaker 2: The eSafety Commissioner has to take some of the world's richest,
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  Speaker 2: most resourced and sophisticated companies to the Australian Federal Court
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  Speaker 2: and ask the judge to adjudicate against them. So, to
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  Speaker 2: do that, We've just given her some more powers through
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  Speaker 2: the parliament in order for her to have more information
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  Speaker 2: gathering and get the documents that she needs to take
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  Speaker 2: these companies to court and hold them accountable. Because like
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  Speaker 2: you say, they've been taking the mickey. This isn't a
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  Speaker 2: question for parents to be regulating their children according to
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  Speaker 2: Australian law. This is for big tech to abide by
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  Speaker 2: Australian law and they could be doing an awful lot
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  Speaker 2: better than they are.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so I think what happens with parents... in 2026
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  Speaker 1: is that there's just technology fatigue, social media fatigue. Kids
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  Speaker 1: are relentless. They've got so much energy. The platforms are
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  Speaker 1: so compelling. They're so, I mean, they're just, they're so desirable.
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  Speaker 1: I'm a 50 year old man with a PhD in
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  Speaker 1: psychology who teaches people about this stuff. And I've actually
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  Speaker 1: had to, I'm just not on the platforms. I've got
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  Speaker 1: my team that look after some stuff for me and
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  Speaker 1: they put it out there for me, but I don't
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  Speaker 1: have personal accounts on any of these platforms because they
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  Speaker 1: have completely owned me in the past. And I know
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  Speaker 1: this stuff. So, The kids are struggling. Parents are a
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  Speaker 1: little bit over it. We had the big excitement last year,
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  Speaker 1: and appropriately so, around the new legislation. And it's gone global.
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  Speaker 1: But this new digital duty of care, you've given us
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  Speaker 1: the guts of it, but can you slow it down
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  Speaker 1: and talk about what it really means? If I'm a
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  Speaker 1: parent listening to this conversation, I'm looking for answers to
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  Speaker 1: help me with the tech dramas of my life, what
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  Speaker 1: does this legislation really mean?
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  Speaker 2: As a parent, we don't expect you to police what
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  Speaker 2: your kids are doing 24 hours a day. It's impossible.
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  Speaker 2: And neither you nor your children, like you say, Justin,
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  Speaker 2: cannot fight the addictive nature of social media. That's why
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  Speaker 2: your government is taking up this fight for parents. We
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  Speaker 2: want you to be able to say this is the
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  Speaker 2: law and you can point to the law to try
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: and address these daily fights that people are having in
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  Speaker 2: their home. And that's why The social media minimum wage,
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  Speaker 2: when it first came in, wasn't actually an idea that
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: came out of government. It was an idea that came
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  Speaker 2: out of a group of parents who'd lost their children
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  Speaker 2: because of the harm they'd experienced on social media. And
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  Speaker 2: they were backed by 120,000 Australians who signed a petition
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  Speaker 2: asking for more help. The digital duty of care is
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  Speaker 2: the next step in that journey, which is, I would say,
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  Speaker 2: this is an industry that has arisen, has been pretty unregulated.
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  Speaker 2: You know, President Macron calls it the wild, wild west.
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  Speaker 2: This is about introducing some basic safety standards to an
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  Speaker 2: industry that hasn't had any. But we do expect basic
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  Speaker 2: safety standards when it comes to cars or food or toys.
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  Speaker 2: So if you walk down the aisle of Big W, Kmart,
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  Speaker 2: name your preferred store, and you've got stuffed toys or
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  Speaker 2: electronic toys on your left, and then you've got iPads
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  Speaker 2: and phones on your right, it is reasonable for you
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  Speaker 2: as a parent to expect all of those devices that
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  Speaker 2: are being sold to your children to have basic safety standards.
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  Speaker 2: And that's what the Digital Duty of Care does. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So the draft covers all online platforms, including the social
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  Speaker 1: media platforms, the AI chatbots, including Claude from Anthropic, ChatGPT.
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  Speaker 1: What I'd like to know is, does it include the
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  Speaker 1: places that the kids actually are, like Roblox and Discord
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  Speaker 1: and group chats, or an AI companion that gets developed
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  Speaker 1: and launched next month? Like who decides what's in the
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  Speaker 1: scope and how fast can that list change? Because the
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  Speaker 1: December 10 legislation only included a small number of major
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  Speaker 1: tech platforms.
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  Speaker 2: That's right. There was 10. This is much broader. And
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  Speaker 2: by design, it is broader to capture online services because
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  Speaker 2: like you say, It changes week to week, let alone
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  Speaker 2: month to month with what might be new and kids
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  Speaker 2: might want to jump on. So, it does capture social media.
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  Speaker 2: It does capture online games. It does capture AI chatbots.
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  Speaker 2: And it will mean that all of those platforms must
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  Speaker 2: protect under 18s from harmful content. And we've set out
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  Speaker 2: five of those specifically in the exposure draft or six technically.
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  Speaker 2: The six are content that promotes or encourages eating disorders
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  Speaker 2: and content that promotes misogynistic content, hostile ideas about women
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  Speaker 2: and gender equality, pornography, content that glorifies crime or dangerous stunts,
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  Speaker 2: and content that causes serious distress, including abuse and bullying. So,
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  Speaker 2: under 18s will also be protected from those things, but
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  Speaker 2: also the design features that I'm sure are has been
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  Speaker 2: a constant discussion topic here. Things like the endless scroll,
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  Speaker 2: the toxic popularity meters that keep kids up late losing sleep.
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  Speaker 2: We want these platforms to embed safety by design some
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  Speaker 2: of them have had 15 years to do it of
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  Speaker 2: their own accord they haven't so now we're going to
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  Speaker 2: legislate that they must.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah so i think any reasonable parent worried about
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  Speaker 1: their children would say bring it on like the sooner
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  Speaker 1: the better as as most parents did when it came
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  Speaker 1: to the social media legislation as well So today, I'm
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  Speaker 1: really fortunate to have a conversation with the Minister for Communications,
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  Speaker 1: Annika Wells. I do want to ask you one more
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  Speaker 1: really important question. In March of this year, the Labor
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  Speaker 1: government at a federal level brought in age verification for pornography.
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  Speaker 1: This is the other massive challenge that parents are struggling with,
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  Speaker 1: especially parents, well, not just of young men. Young men
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  Speaker 1: are the most affected, but the carryover into the lives
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  Speaker 1: of girls is enormous as well. So clicking a button
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  Speaker 1: that says, I'm 18 or older, is no longer enough.
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  Speaker 1: It used to work and now obviously kids can't get
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  Speaker 1: in just by clicking that button. Obviously I was a
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  Speaker 1: massive supporter of this legislation, But from what I can
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  Speaker 1: make out, here's what actually happened. ALO, which owns Pornhub,
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  Speaker 1: they own RedTube, they own YouPorn, they didn't verify anyone.
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  Speaker 1: They just switched off explicit content for Australia and put
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  Speaker 1: up a banner saying that it wasn't accepting any new
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  Speaker 1: registrations here and put some fairly safe content on their
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  Speaker 1: site for Australians. And initially I thought, oh, that's fantastic.
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  Speaker 1: It's not here. And then VPN downloads went through the roof.
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  Speaker 1: So sensor tower data showed that VPN downloads went from
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  Speaker 1: the 40th most downloaded to the seventh most downloaded on
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  Speaker 1: the free iPhone charts in a matter of days. And
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  Speaker 1: there were a whole bunch of others as well. There was,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, NordVPN and ProtonVPN all jumped into the
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  Speaker 1: top 10 or the top 20. So the biggest, most regulated,
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  Speaker 1: most reachable player left the market. And the kids who
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  Speaker 1: want pornography have, learned to either A, use a VPN,
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  Speaker 1: or B, go to sites that nobody's ever heard of
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  Speaker 1: and nobody's policing. And so my question is, how is
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  Speaker 1: this a better outcome for a 13-year-old boy than what
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  Speaker 1: we had before?
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  Speaker 2: Well, what happened in March was the industry crows coming
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  Speaker 2: into force. And like you say, some companies chose to
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  Speaker 2: leave the Australian market rather than abide by Australian law.
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  Speaker 2: And like you say, the outcome that we want is...
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  Speaker 2: for no children to be accessing illegal or seriously harmful
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  Speaker 2: content online and for adults to be able to access
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  Speaker 2: what is legal but not to be offered things that
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  Speaker 2: are illegal. And there's a big, wide internet out there,
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  Speaker 2: like you say, lots of ways to subvert it. We
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: are measuring this in a number of different ways. There's
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  Speaker 2: obviously the compliance statistics that you've talked about and that
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  Speaker 2: I freely admit we would all like to see higher
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  Speaker 2: than they are, but that isn't on parents and kids
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  Speaker 2: failing to abide by law. That is big tech choosing
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: to take the risk and not abide by Australian law.
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  Speaker 2: Those industry codes, again, are remnant of an industry that
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: has not been subject to much regulation over the past decade.
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  Speaker 2: We are making those codes part of the digital care.
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  Speaker 2: We are enshrining those requirements in the law. And some
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  Speaker 2: of those ways you're talking about kids using VPNs, that
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  Speaker 2: is one data point that platforms can use to identify
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  Speaker 2: how old someone is. There are a myriad of data
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  Speaker 2: points that you can use that you voluntarily give up
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  Speaker 2: when you go online that gives away how old you are.
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  Speaker 2: That's the age of the people that you interact with online.
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  Speaker 2: That's if you're looking up caravans or grey nomad excursions
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: around the country, or if you're talking about the under-14s
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  Speaker 2: netball final on Saturday. There are a lot more data
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  Speaker 2: points than just VPN usage, but you are right in
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  Speaker 2: that platforms are taking the mickey in allowing these things
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  Speaker 2: to happen. And that's why we want to bring in
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: the digital duty of care where the onus, the responsibility
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  Speaker 2: shifts from being on the shoulders of victims here to
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  Speaker 2: being on the shoulders of big tech who want to
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: make money off Australian customers. Cultural change takes time. I'm
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: of an age where seatbelts were always compulsory growing up,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: but people tell me that there was a moment when
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: seatbelts became compulsory and not everybody on day one agreed
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: with that. And I also... I'm told that the car
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: industry said that that would send them bust, wasn't possible
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: to design, seatbelts would affect the economics of car manufacturing,
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  Speaker 2: all that jazz. Now we have car companies who compete
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: to be the safest car on the market. And whilst
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I know that parents might feel Like this isn't working
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  Speaker 2: as fast as they want. This hasn't panned out the
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: way that we would have liked. This is about cultural
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: change and cultural change takes time. And I always said
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: that the first three years of this was going to
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: be the hardest as we had young people who have
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  Speaker 2: been on social media for years being asked to go
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  Speaker 2: back off it for a year or two years until
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  Speaker 2: they turn 16, whereas there's another whole generation of kids
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  Speaker 2: out there who will now not be on social media
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  Speaker 2: platforms until they turn 16 because they were younger than
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  Speaker 2: these laws coming in. And there are green shoots that,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: like you say, you feel better for being off social media.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: We're tracking this through a long-term study at the Safety
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: Commission and we know through other polls like YouGov that 30%
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: of young Australians are spending more time playing sport now, 27%
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: are reporting better sleep now, online bullying's down 9%, and
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: exposure to inappropriate and violent content has fallen by 18%. So,
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  Speaker 2: there's lots of different ways that this is affecting us.
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  Speaker 2: We're trying to track as many of them as possible.
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  Speaker 2: I want parents to have hope that we will use
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  Speaker 2: every weapon in our arsenal to address some of the
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: most complex policy dilemmas of our time online. And we
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: will hold big tech to account. And unfortunately, it wasn't
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: just a case of writing a fine on day one.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: But even today, because of the laws that we passed
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: in the to those platforms that accountability is coming.
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  Speaker 1: Well, go get them. I want to ask you so
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: many more questions, but time is going to get away
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: from us.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: I'm happy to come back.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: Maybe we need to. It's a really thankless task that
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: you've got. You're up against some.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: An important one.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, some powerhouses globally. But I really appreciate you taking
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: the time to chat with us today, Minister Wells, about
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: the legislation and how it affects our families. Thanks for
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: your time.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: I appreciate everything you do to help parents through one
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: of these really complex challenges that we're all navigating.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Have a good day. You too. Thank you so much.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: That's the Communications Minister, Annika Wells, on the Happy Families podcast.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: We will link to the legislation. We'll link to some
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: articles and some other info to help you to understand
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: everything about what we've discussed in the show notes. If
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: you'd like more info to make your family happier, visit happyfamilies.com.au.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: A big thanks to Justin Rulon from Bridge Media for
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: sound and audio engineering and Mim Hammonds for additional support.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Music