Latest / Loons: embrace, understand and ignore the internet with Carmen Vicente and Danielle Gibson / Loons: investigating the Canadian business and media ecosystem with Sarah Bartnicka of Milk Bag

Transcript

Loons: investigating the Canadian business and media ecosystem with Sarah Bartnicka of Milk Bag · Loons: embrace, understand and ignore the internet with Carmen Vicente and Danielle Gibson

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Danielle.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Carmen.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: And this is Loons.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: We are two old hags discussing the internet, trying to decide which parts of the modern internet we want to embrace, understand, or ignore.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: And today we have a very special guest, Sarah Bartonica, editor of Milkbag.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for joining us.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thrilled to be here.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: We have a lot to discuss.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have a lot to get into.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I would love, honestly, to start off.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We know about each other.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know about us a little bit.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: But why don't you tell us and the audience just a little bit more?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: You have you have the power newsletter of Canada.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can you g give us a little more color to that?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's really kind.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Milba, it's a new project, and I think that I started it just because I wanted to create something that I felt was missing from the media ecosystem, more specifically, the business media ecosystem, which is where I kind of reside.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just been like a passion project that's kind of turning into this, you know, that very quickly became a real thing because I it it seemed like there was a real gap for it.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, like I want it to be a go-to destination for, you know, young professionals.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: I want it to be like a good source of information for people that are looking to understand how to show up better in their professional and personal lives.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: And like all of this, it's it's still so early.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's still a work in progress.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: But it's I thank you for saying that.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's gotten some really great momentum, and I'm really excited about what's to come.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Now, forgive me for saying this, but you're young and hot.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Why are you focusing on like businesses of Canada?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's a lot you could be doing online.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd love to know what you think I could be doing online.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Honestly, like we were talking about this.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it is, I think it's often very hard for people to understand what their per what their own personal brand is.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about personal brands a lot.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, understand other people's.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: But like when I look at you when you walk in, I mean, I think it's great, great to focus on business in Canada.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: I need to learn a lot about business in Canada because I'm like, what the hell is going on?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you could do anything.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: I could see you, I could you could be fashion, you could be like out on the town, having a drink.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, it could be anything, but you're choosing to focus instead on something that's a little heavier, something that's a little more, there's a lot more to it.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, your lay woman does not really understand what's going on.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you chose to do.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: I just love it.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: I love it so much.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like it it came back to the first internship, the first like real internship that I have was um on the media relations desk at Bemo Capital Markets.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: And like it was ever since then, it was such a, it wasn't an easy internship to get, but at the time, everyone was vying for like the PR lifestyle.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was like the era of like, and everything was unpaid and it was super cutthroat.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I I got this job at the bank, and it was it like since the beginning, it's been very, I've I've been super into business.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think um the the the way in which maybe you're talking about it, which I think many people understand it as, it's like super stuffy and like buttoned up.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's always been so fun to tackle these stuffy topics with like this conversational and like really fun lens.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I've always really loved the outlets that have like done that.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like the first newsletter that I fell in love with was called The Hustle.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if your listeners would know it, but it's like that was, and I freelanced for them, I like begged them.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: That was like one of my first newsletter jobs was to work there.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I always loved looking at this world.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Cause like at the end of the day, it's like everything that we like everything that we do every single day, all the decisions that we make from like what we wear to like where we're eating out or or whatever, like you can you can always apply this like business lens to it, which I think is really fascinating.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, if I can be like if I can, I think I'm I think I embody like what this young professional kind of is now.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe they have this great job and they're crushing it at that, but like they also want to know like how to dress and like what's a good place to go out to eat.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like I'm trying to, I think I feel like in a way, like I hope to to to somewhat embody like what the reader also kind of cares about.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, like I've never uh I feel deeply uncool.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: And like I've never, like I'm not like a cool person.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand fashion, I don't understand like music or feel like I just I've never business.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: I get business, and so that's what I focus on.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I think if you think you're cool, it's probably a lit litmus test that things aren't so good for you.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I can you take us through like the Sarah like ecosystem?
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_02: So you have milk bag, is that like I want to know how like what are the pieces and how do they fit together and where where do you spend, you know, the majority of your hours in a week sort of thing?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think the goal is to get it to be like first and foremost, like the newsletter.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's such a shock when you go out and you do this yourself, and all of a sudden, like at my last job, it's like we I was totally responsible for editorial.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't responsible for making sure that I was getting paid and that you know what I mean.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: All the admin, all the payroll, all the taxes, like everything that had to do with that too.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was like such a fun thing to just be able to show up and get paid and like focus on the work in front of you.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so now it's been a crazy experience having to manage all of it.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know if I found the right balance for it, but I'm working towards making sure that like most of my time is like just in editorial, like it has to be, like it's not a good use.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I love doing the other stuff.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: I'm only one human girl, and so I can't do everything.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think day to day it needs to be more focused on the editorial.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but a lot of my attention right now like has been focused on getting the right partners to like make sure that this thing can live on.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's this it's this huge tension because it's so necessary to kind of be out there and doing like the business side of things too.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: But then at the end of the day, it like compromises the time that you have um for the actual creative output.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's still something that I'm trying to figure out.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it is a newsletter which you publish on Substack.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: Why Substack?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Why not beehive?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: Why not beehive?
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: The Beehive team is gonna be so mad if they see this.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I I find that the um I like the Beehive team a lot.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know them.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: She's considering an offer.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've met them, they've emailed me.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I find the um, I find the the the user experience of Substack really great.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that Substack has gotten so much momentum south of the border in terms of the, you know, I mean, everyone's kind of on Substack.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I have always I really like the founders.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I I like what they're trying to build, and and I just feel like they've built a great little platform.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like it was a really easy home for me.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've worked at a newsletter and I don't think many people realize like how complicated it is to like manage a list, manage payments, like manage um like any types of like promotional campaigns that you want to do like within these other platforms, the design aspect too, you're often kind of piecing together um different like software to make all the those things happen.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's really complicated.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's essential if you're like a huge media organization and like you need those custom builds.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're just like one person who's sitting in front of a computer, like Substack is is great.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I yeah, it's the best platform I know that's out there.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's not perfect, but it's pretty good.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna just be devil's advocate.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Don't hate me for you on beehive.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm actually asking, it sort of ties into my first potentially, you know, rude question, but of but of like, I look at you and I think you're great on camera.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why would you why a newsletter instead of short form video, instead of a podcast, instead of like other types of me, other mediums, I guess.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, Daniel, we're we're getting there.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we'll no, we will get there.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I love doing that.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think that um, and I think you'll both relate to this as well too.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think um, and I think we'll get into like all of this too.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like my origins are like in like hosting and like broadcast, and like that was something that I loved.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So what were you what were your origins?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: To do origins, like I would say as like a young kid, like I was um my like in high school, like we had this really sophisticated, like the morning announcements were made.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was I I went to in Ottawa, and and it was the the program there was was really, really cutthroat.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in terms of like it just was like not cutthroat, sorry, but it was a huge effort.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was worth two credits.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: You worked every day after school, you were each responsible for like a day, and you would like produce like morning announcements as you would like a news broadcast.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And then all throughout university, I didn't have the awareness to like actually go to journalism school.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: I just didn't even think to do that or to like work at the school newspaper.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I worked at Rogers TV and I was an on-air host there.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, amazing! And so that was like my volunteer gig through because everyone like works at Rogers for free, or I don't know if they still do, but they did back that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Calling you out Rogers for some reason.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I loved it though.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was really, really fun.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like a volunteer host and did a lot of like PA stuff, flora directing.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I loved that.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I got here, I tried to kind of do the same thing.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it was like super, it was super competitive, and it was and I kind of ended up just going through a different lane.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's it's all kind of ended up in a place where I'm okay with that.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: You're still into it.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: You're still like you're not gonna turn down if someone said we want you to be the financial analyst for whatever exists.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think I'm qualified for that.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that video is like it's so important.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm what I'm struggling with is is and where but where I also see the biggest opportunity is like I think that I'm I'm so optimistic about because our our news ecosystem and our information ecosystem in Canada is like so like broken at the moment, right too.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't have a good path to get like the best information.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Love the most amount of people.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: The most amount of people.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I think that doing more on video, on social, having like a digital first publication is is essential.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and but the thing is about that is that like it's I'm really interested in concepts that feel pretty, you know, a little bit higher production.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, even something like like this, like this is awesome.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I you know what it means.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: With our bowl of balls.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this bowl of balls is really important to us.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that making sure that you can um execute against that quality, like that's been the thing that's kind of holding it back a little bit, but it will move towards that, and I think it's important.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: I you just sort of touched on this.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I am Canadian.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're all Canadian here.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the thing about our show.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're some crazy loons.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my passport.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I pretty good.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: You passed.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: My school in Ottawa is pretty Canadian.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I was gone for a long time.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So my a lot of my formative years, I was in the States and I moved back in 2020.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I I will very readily admit that I don't really understand a lot about the Canadian media ecosystem or the Canadian business world.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to me, and tell I've seen this online, I've heard this mentioned, you must have heard this.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like for Canadian media, it's like three companies in a trench coat, yeah, is what it sounds like.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Three industry is three companies that are true.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: That is true.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: More and more side dance.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: But so so who is there, who are the power players?
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can you give us Sarah's view of like what if I was talking to someone who just moved to Canada and you were like, here's what you need to know about the Canadian media ecosystem or the Canadian business world.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Here are three things that you should know.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And are there independent players that are like competing with the big guns, or does that not in terms of media?
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's an interesting time right now.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the the biggest and I think most important characteristics of Canadian media right at this moment is that um we have one of the highest percentages of uh foreign news consumption in the world.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's surprising because of our proximity to the US.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think after us is like Ireland, and that's because of their proximity to the UK.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I and so a lot of our news environment is influenced um because of that, and a lot of the stress on the system right now is because there's like this, um, there's this turf war going on between, you know, the Globe and Mail, the Toronto Star, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, everyone's kind of moving in on Canada.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um they see New York Times, their their biggest subscription base outside of the United States is in Canada.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's a market that a lot of these global players are very interested in.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um The Economist, I've I mean, I like I'm I'm not trying to like be performative with this, but like I I read, I read The Economist all the time.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Their coverage of Canada has increased significantly.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: You notice it every month, right?
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's going up.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I would say that's like the defining characteristic of Canadian media right now.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: It is it is it is put a lot of stress on the system as well, too.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and another characteristic of the Canadian media ecosystem at the moment is the online news act and um something that all the big media players across the world are feeling, which is just the shifting in ad dollars from traditional advertising and media publications to the tech platforms and the like bleeding of resources that has like come from that, and everyone's kind of trying to just kind of you know figure it out and and hold it together amongst that.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say that those are like the two defining characteristics of Canadian media right now.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and yeah, of course, a defining characteristic of Canadian business generally is that it's incredibly not competitive in every single facet of the economy.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you were to explain uh Canada to to somebody, I think that's actually really unique if you're you're talking to someone around the world.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and yeah, I but in terms of your question about different players in media, um, I do think that there are some really exciting, you know, startups.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Canada Land is one, The Logic is one, like you, they're backed by the Financial Times now.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you do have players that are that are coming up because it really was like the Globe and Mail, National Post, the Toronto Star, even though that's a Toronto publication, it's like some of the widest circulation just by nature of us being in one of the biggest North American cities uh on a population basis.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so you do have these upstarts that are, you know, that have been doing a great job and I think now are doing very well and are now kind of leading the charge in terms of this like digital first era of of news consumption.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I could talk about Canadian media all day, but if I had to like give a crash course to to somebody or at least start a conversation, that's where I'd start.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: So Canada Land and the Logic, would you say those are those are the new upstart media companies?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are there any other independent people like you that you see out there?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like just sort of solo, solopreneurs who are like I don't know, in in perhaps other con like types, like in fashion, in food.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are you meeting these people?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I was in your shoes, I'd be like, who else is doing something similar so I can have a friend like to talk about all of this?
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's not that many, um, there's not that many journal like journalists, right?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that this is where the conversation gets really interesting because it's like, are you a journalist?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Are you a creator?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: What defines both of those things?
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you kind of flip-flop between the the two.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: And when are you an influencer?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a journalist.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're just but it depends, right?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: You go to these um events sometimes, like the badge that you're given.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was just in San Francisco for an event and you're you're on this and it says media and creators.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not in the media lounge anymore, I'm in the media and creator lounge.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so you go to um a lot of these uh briefings or events, especially on a global scale, and you're there's increasingly more um influencer creators because if you think about it right too, like you have, you know, one person from the Wall Street Journal, and then you have one huge influencer, and their reach is the same, which is wild, right?
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: To think about.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's something that only started to click for me um recently.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but in terms of people that are in this space, there's not a ton.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, everyone that is doing it.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I do know there are people that are a little bit more uh, you know, traditional, have taken uh a step away from traditional news and have taken kind of their their talents online.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: Rachel Gilmore Gilmore is a big one, she's on Substack, she primarily does video.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I kind of I have you know, people that I more see as like my peers would be like Amber Canwar, who hosts the pine who hosts the podcast called In the Money, and John Ehrlichman, uh, who hosts Ticker Takes, and they are both uh ex BNN anchors that have now kind of shifted towards um markets-driven business coverage, and they're doing an exceptional job.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: They're both like crushing it, and their content is amazing.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: They have been doing this for years, they are broadcast journalists, and they are so dialed in in what they know and their sources and everything too.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it really is like an outstanding product that both of them are coming up with.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And are they focused on Canadian business as well or everything?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Canadian business, Canadian business, Canadian like markets, markets coverage too.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: So they have like made um, yeah, like that that coverage that you kind of would think about when you think of BNN, and they've just kind of made it more uh accessible for for people like through their own platforms.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's still not a ton of people.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of um independent journalists in the political space.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: There's obviously a ton of lifestyle people.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: I can't even I can't even name like one or two because I don't even there's so many.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but in my in my world, um, there's a there's a few.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but it's funny, one of the biggest creators in Canada, and I need to check my phone on this, but Reuters puts out a really interesting report every single year where they survey like the digital news landscape, not just not just in Canada, but around the world.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, who are the most um, you know, cited uh news figures, something like that, in Canada?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, this is maybe a couple years ago, and it was like Donald Trump, and it was like Justin Trudeau, and then it was like all Americans is all you need to know.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was like Elon Musk, and it was like who's more in the online conversation?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think his name is JJ McCullough McCullough, like the YouTuber.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen that name.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think something like I might be saying it wrong.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: He's one of the biggest, but like to have that weight in like this global survey, and this is a YouTube creator that kind of talks about like he makes like uh, you know, fun videos about what's happening in Canada.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: He does like, you know, more like informed kind of explainers and things like that too.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not super familiar with this content, um, but uh when I saw him, I I perused.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: But there's not that many, and in many ways, it makes the conversation really difficult because I think that the market in the US is way more developed.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you were working in it.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so you would know, but it's so here I think pe a lot of people are still figuring out like, what are you?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: What is a Substack?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm having a lot of those conversations, but I I hope if there are like a few of us, you know, navigating what that looks like, I think that it can kind of, you know, we can bring everyone along for the ride, which is my hope.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, no, I feel like I always have this like creator lens that I'm seeing things from, not so much a journalist lens, but I I feel like right now it seems like there's a lot of legacy media outlets that are like, oh, like creators are so influential.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: There are like YouTubers who probably have more influence than Elon Musk and that sort of thing.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe not Elon Musk, but like But they're outlets.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and and I think they're sort of it feels like they're kind of like um like waking up to it right now, where they're like, okay, we need to get in on this.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And like obviously there's like, you know, journalists at the New York Times that now are having to produce video content, which I was a New York Times journalist, I may be kind of miffed about that.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um and like CNN, I think just hired Kyla Scanlon as I mean, I'm talking about American figures, but I think that there's like clearly a move for legacy media outlets.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: It feels to me like definitely in the last like two years, legacy media outlets have been like, okay, we need to actually think about creators as like legitimate uh um like facets of of our reporting.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm kind of wondering, like, we talk about personal brands a lot.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, do you feel now like an expectation, or maybe it's like a negative or positive thing to be like uh suddenly kind of like everywhere all at once because that's how you like you can't just survive in in terms of print, like it has to also be like you're on video, you're you're everywhere on social media.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: You've got someone like me being like, You're young and hot, why are you on video?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: Danielle's screaming at you about being hot, you know.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is a creator?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: And like, what is like I guess if you wanted to find like a journalist by someone who like went to journalism school, like I guess sure.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's like that, but then so I don't know, like when you and then there's like people that haven't gone to journalism school that are like exceptional analysts and contributors and like would be incredible to have at in any one of these newsrooms.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that it hasn't moved quickly enough, right?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Especially in Canada.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a shame, right?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: Too.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a I think it's a good thing because this is where the market is going.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, uh the reason why a lot of people like me are doing what we're doing is because we don't see a place for ourselves in the way that things are working in these newsrooms because we're aware of it and our our friends work there and like we we like we know what's going on, and it's it's you know, it it's out of it's out of like necessity almost to get like, okay, well, I'm I'm not gonna do it here, so I'm just gonna do it myself too.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: But with that, um, it would be better if this was happening within a newsroom because then you have the resources that can contribute to the really good storytelling, right?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Too an issue that we're having right now is that you have a lot of really great creators that are, you know, trained journalists that are doing their best to um deliver great information, but um people make mistakes, they don't have the resources or like the fact checking that is is necessary to like make sure that like everything that's going out is like absolutely perfect.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then some people also don't care because.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because the platforms are built to um, you know, it's not built to disseminate the best information.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's they're made to disseminate um the most emotional.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean too?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I see it all the time on Instagram where like I read, I start my day reading every single English speaking news source, like basically that exists, right?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that's a lot dozens and dozens, if not like under a hundred, but like every single thing I'm scanning.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of these stories, when they pop up on my feed, you're just like, that's not what happened, right?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and so, but it's it's it's so far gone and it's a headline and it's like a quick thing quote.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: Where how are how do you like getting your news?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: How are you like what what programs are you using?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you use an app or do you I'm on the homepage of every single news site?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not even that big on newsletters.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I follow into individual contributors that wouldn't have uh that wouldn't be on like the homepage of the Globe of Mail.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I wouldn't follow the newsletter of a news organization because uh the stuff goes on the website uh much quicker, and so I can get it quicker.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just on the home pages of all the news sites.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I get a lot of prints.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: People beyond the paywall.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: I have a lot of print that's like coming to my door um all the time.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: And uh print.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we have a lot of print.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've influenced our neighbors.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's funny, we get like a lot of newspapers, and now we're noticing that like the building is now starting to get a lot of newspapers since too.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: So like everyone's like kind of being like, no, like I'd like a Sunday paper to go with my coffee.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's yeah, it's print.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: It is like actual home pages of like all the news sites that I follow and love and podcasts as well, too.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then sometimes like I dabble just like in the algorithm um because that's where you're gonna find a lot of the um local kind of like you know, like a story, like no one's writing about, you know, certain openings that a lot of people are talking about, and that's where you're gonna get that context, which is some which is which is content that I love to put in the newsletter.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so it's a lot of it is on social media as well, because it like has to be because I'm ultimately the value of subscribing to my newsletter is that you're not gonna get this story in any of the outlets.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have to do a bit of digging, and that's like social, that's like actually having conversations with people and that's like bopping around town and seeing what's happening.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And how are you getting, are you sliding into DMs?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like how are you getting all the time.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: I like am so unhinged.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like I am sliding into DMs, I am texting people, I am emailing people through their websites, I'm tracking down their friends.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I yeah, I'm constantly You're a reporter.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: DM you're a true journalist, like actually doing research.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like creators and journalists have this like interesting handshake now.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I was talking to, uh I forget her name, somebody who who um works in like the American uh American journalism.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I was saying, like, something I notice, I have like two friends who also create content, and I defin we don't think of ourselves as journalists, but like some of it is like you know, tech reporting or kind of like news.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: And every time we have a video that goes like pretty viral, yeah, I'll get a call from a couple journalists.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like when I made a video about um Alex Earl, not not really about her, but about like what I thought was happening around her.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: I talked to people from the New York Times, I talked to people from NBC News, and it's interesting because I feel like there is this like kind of handshake where like when when there's signals that the journalists can see in social media, they'll be like, hey, let's chat about that.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: But then also us as creators are then taking like citations from them to be like, well, this is real because you talked about it in a story.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we're we're gonna use that in our content.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like an interesting kind of like I don't know, ecosystem that we're we're both like um like it feels it feels uh beneficial, but I I also wonder sometimes like when a video blows up, I'm like, oh, I'll probably get an email from a journalist at some point.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, totally.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: And what you're producing informs what they do and like what they produce informs like what you do.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then you have definitely um people on both ends that like take it too far the other way.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it's like it's it's that is so tough, and like the you know, the fight for coverage and stories too.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: But it is like this great ecosystem.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think that um my perspective on that just from like an organization standpoint is that ultimately like you need to show up to your question about doing everything all at once.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you are, you know, the New York Times, it's like on them to make sure that they are, you know, ever and they are everywhere.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like just so you are not, you know, losing out to like, oh, you do a print story and then there's somebody else talking about it.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, you want to own that whole, you know, funnel, like let's call it, of like content um at every single aspect and be like repurposing it in the ways that like and you need to own all of that.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's where you see like a bit of like a breakdown is when maybe newsrooms haven't moved so quickly and then online creators are talking about it, and then you don't really own the messaging and things get lost and and all of that too.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: But I think if everyone's acting in good faith and and you have um then there's like this beautiful kind of dance that happens in this relationship that can kind of emerge um and ultimately like that that relationship just makes like everyone better off.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that there are so many people not acting in good faith.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like do you worry about that?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Is that someone could subscribe to your newsletter and say, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a a news, a Canadian business news creator, and I'm and using your newsletter as potentially as a source.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was reported in milk bag, blah, blah, blah.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then essentially just like reper because this is what happens for a lot of news creators, yeah, is they're just aggregating or repurposing uh information or research or stories that journalists have put a lot of work into.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Does that is that a concern or all?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Or you're like, eh, if it happens, it's fine.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like my newsletter is like pretty, like it also relies on like aggregated um content as well, too, which I think is okay as long as you um, as long as you can be like a top of funnel and as long as you're accurately crediting the source.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: I always if it's like a if it's a specific writer that has broken a story, like I always will try to like name the writer.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: If I can tell no, this was like a scoop by this writer, like I will mention them my name.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I will link back to them.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of some of the uh it just it happened, it hasn't really happened yet.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I'm big enough.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that it will happen.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've had stories stolen like from pitches, and I mean, not I I feel like everyone has a story like that, and uh it's it's kind of um it's kind of like a a shame.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: And there's like a lot of things that happen uh very publicly where people will be like, oh, you know, I pitched this or I wrote about this or I posted about this, and then this outlet like ran with it, and like you can't really prove, and like ideas are just so um, you know, you can't prove the origin of an idea, and like a lot of us have the same ideas, and so it's tricky in that sense too.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: But no, I don't, I I don't really worry about it because I I myself um, you know, rely on what is you know happening in the ecosystem.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: What I would be more concerned about if I was like a if I was like a big newsroom um and I was seeing that we were getting like that all of our you know coverage was getting like repurposed in a way that we didn't have control over, that would then become an issue and then um you yeah, you would have to fix that.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not something that that I worry about right now.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, mostly because like the the the stories here and there that like I've seen like pop up on social media that like after you write about them, like sometimes people credit you, which is great, sometimes they don't, and that's a little bit annoying, but it's just like everything's so fleeting, and there hasn't been an instance that's like really pissed me off.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, good.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say good.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you're on work for your job.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: You're you have to be.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: It is through is a digital first, obviously, entity.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: Are you online for fun as well?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: You were saying you're a little analog.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not like super online.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm trying to be less online.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we're gonna do a rundown of the platforms.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Are you on Instagram?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Are you on TikTok?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Are you on X?
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm on TikTok.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not like on TikTok.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't have use TikTok.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've like posted maybe like a couple videos.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like not really on, I really don't use it.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you are on LinkedIn.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: Are you aware that you're sitting with a top voice on LinkedIn?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I am honored to be sitting with a top voice on LinkedIn.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: What are you posting on LinkedIn?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I think I'm like, oh, people, it's so funny.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I sometimes, I don't know how to feel about this, but sometimes I don't know if this happens to you ever, Carmen, but like, do you ever like run into someone on the street and they're like, oh, like I've been seeing a lot of your LinkedIn ads.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, I want to die.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because it is, it's like everything that LinkedIn is.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you post like actual like insights and analysis that I think is really important.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: Thought leadership is what we mean to say.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thought leadership is what Carmen is posting.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: The rest of us are just like, it's so like kindergarten.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, look at this thing I did.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's you just have to kind of do that because otherwise no one like knows the work that you're doing.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Or like bragging, which is like so strange.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's what kind of LinkedIn is too.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I do use it for for that.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for when you when you do something work-wise, you just kind of have to do a little pat on the back.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: You have to, you have to give yourself a little pat on the back via LinkedIn, yeah.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, especially when you're in work for yourself, you are a solopreneur, if I may call you that.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: You like you have to kind of be okay with your own.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of the game.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's part of the game.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Here's who I am, here's what I do.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like here's what I've done.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: Look how exciting this is.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, it is sort of part of it if you want to, if you want to grow and sh and you have to be your own sort of PR person.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not doing that, I will say, like, if if you're deciding, I don't believe that you have to post on LinkedIn, I don't think you have to post on Instagram at all.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you better have a really strong network like in your real life to be able to not do that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Ideally, you can kind of, you know, teeter both and and and and do that.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I think that like, yeah, like you kind of have to be, it's so competitive now.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's all that it is too, is just like you just have to like let the world know, like this is what I do, this is how I work.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's like that opens you up to opportunities.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that you know, I I don't think my LinkedIn presence is not something that I've ever really consciously thought about.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in hindsight, I think it is a pretty good example, you know, for people because it's like who want to kind of build their, you know, increasingly it's a requirement to build kind of like a personal brand alongside your professional brand, even if you never will in any world, you know, take a brand deal and that's not even the goal.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's like having people know what you're doing and at work and is is super important if you want just like options and opportunities and because you when you're alone in an individual, you don't have like an all hands to say, Hey, I did this, I did this this month.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good way to look at it.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: LinkedIn is the all hands of the internet.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: If I had that validation from like a manager, a hundred percent, you can just like leave it to that too, but you don't.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, I like that.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we do something on loons where we talk about on the internet things that we are embracing, understanding, and ignoring in 2026 and and in recent internet times.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna go through now, and you can weigh in as you please about some things that Carm and I were embracing, understanding, ignoring.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: I can start if you'd like.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, something that I'm embracing lately is a show called Old Takes.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you have seen this.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's hosted by someone named Mark Ruckman.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And he's got a great look.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a great look.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: He just, the show is called Old Takes, and he looks like the show Old Takes.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking we talk so much about personal brands and understanding what your personal brand is.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think this man is brilliant.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: He basically goes through new things that uh people feel are new phenomenons.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say remote work.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he breaks down or or public shaming.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he breaks down why these things- Old as time.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: These things are it's all cyclical.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing under the sun is new.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: And he gives great examples.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's great sort of b-roll footage or or uh stock footage, things being used to sort of demonstrate what he's talking about.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I just love whenever people kind of lose their minds about like, oh, this means it's the end of the world.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the people are dancing on TikTok.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's the end of the world.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening to youth?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it might be.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think to myself, this has all happened before, and it will all happen again.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he does a great job showing that.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I recommend checking it out.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm embracing this show.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's awesome.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um I would say, as an embrace right now, I've been thinking a lot about uh, I mean, Kyla Scanlon talks about this with the little treat economy.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I feel like maybe this is on on topic for business.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I support little treats.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know what they do to the economy, but uh I'm all for buying an expensive matcha.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um even if you're like, should I be am I the demographic who should be buying this?
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I'm I feel like little treats are I'm giving them the embrace.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: The only, they're kind of the only economy.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: The only economy I want to be a part of.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: I feel everything else is unaffordable.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but yeah, any thoughts?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: I uh uh as for something that I'm embracing.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um give me one moment to think about this.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe we can't.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: Agree or disagree, little treats.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think we I don't know if I want to be recorded saying this.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've taken little treats a bit too far.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: No, oh it's too hot, too hot for the.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, sorry.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Here's my take actually about little treats is that I think that we've actually graduated from the little treat economy.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think really quickly the little treats are becoming like a$2,000 dress from the row.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: And like I think that like I want I actually think that people are applying the little treat mentality to big treats.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I totally understand, and it is justifiable that like people are feeling like they can't buy a house and so they want to buy a matcha, and that is such a rational way to think about things.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_01: However, I am seeing the same type of thinking being applied to like insane purchases.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: I deserve this.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, YOLO, do you deserve this?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do we need my handbag that costs that much?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they are using the same type of, they're like, well, no, like screw it, the world's ending like this.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think we've taken it a bit too far.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then at that point, I think we're it's it's an interesting economic story because it's like then it it kind of puts into you know full view, you're kind of just like, okay, well, I I know that we feel like we're things are out of control and prices are out of control too.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: But then at some point it starts to feel like everyone's feeling like they need to be living like a Kardashian.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then at what point is it a little bit our fault?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's something that comes up in conversations with my friends that I'm very nervous to have recorded, but I think that there's something to it.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: Sarah says personal responsibility.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Personal responsibility responsibility.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: Little treats are great.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's just when they become medium to big sized treats.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we need to relax a little bit and like you know, contribute to your RSP and like just it's okay.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Which is what we have in Canada.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for being here, Sarah.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: We so appreciate it.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think we have to wrap.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: We're out of time.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it's because we were having just so much fun.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: We really appreciate it.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: Plug, tell people where to read www.milkbag.ca, very Canadian.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can find the newsletter and subscribe.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope that people enjoy reading it.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Sarah.