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Celebrity and Influencer Brands · Divine Skintervention

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Angela.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Hi Ramon.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: How are we?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: Doing just Divine today.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: Divine.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Divine's Contravention.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're at what four episodes?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Something like that.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know in what order these are coming out.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're all over the place.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like there's so much to talk about every time.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: So.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: There is.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: And speaking of talk about and current events, I feel like in the beauty space, we've had a lot of brands launch very recently, like back to back to back to back.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: At this point in time in the last month, it's been Leaked Labs, Real, which is the Lipstick Lesbians brand.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Real Actives, which is Alex Earl's brand.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're about to see the launch uh, what's it called?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Grow Good.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Grow Good.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Grow Good Party B.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, like we've been doing this for a minute.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen a lot of brands launch.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen a lot of brands exit, shut down.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what are your thoughts on brands like these launching, especially with having such public figures behind them?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's it's very difficult to take stock of like what's gonna stick around and what doesn't.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like on an earlier episode, we talked about okay, the celebs who launch these brands quite often they have some sort of industry operator that's working with them, and their level of involvement can vary.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the common thread here is that people who have a big audience, you know, you can only monetize them so much until you reach the point of selling them something directly.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think this is especially true with people who are on social media.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: So, somebody like the Lipstick Lesbians or Alex Earl.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: You can make a lot of money in brand deals, but eventually I think you're gonna want to stop doing that.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna want to retire, and at a certain point, why not own the company and make a big exit?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of people are inspired by uh what's happened with Hailey Bieber and all of that, because theoretically, it's like she could sit on her ass for the rest of her life after these five years or whatever that she has to do with Road.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that yeah, you reach kind of a limit of what you could make via social media.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um so this is the next step.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: Versus somebody like Cardi B.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um she's famous in a different right, uh, just being, you know, a musician, a media personality.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: I know music doesn't pay as much as it used to, but she really is somebody who I think has a lot of uh yeah, like a big fan base and a lot of goodwill towards her, so it kind of makes sense in a different way for me.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Do you feel that?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: My thing is, to your point, people see what happened to Rhode and they're like, I want that, I can have that.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: But realistically, I'm also thinking like, okay, you could, but what are the chances of you being able to match even a fraction of that success of what you're launching wasn't necessary, wasn't innovative, wasn't interesting, wasn't worth the interest to have the potential to grow that far.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking, so for example, Grow Good, Real Actives, Leaf Labs.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: There are very different business models and very different concepts.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, talking about Alex Earle with Real Actives, her whole deal was she was on Accutane twice.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: She's known for talking about her acne journey.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: She launches an acne-focused line.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And looking at it, the ingredient stories are interesting, but it's nothing we haven't seen before necessarily.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about this earlier.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's a mandelic acid serum.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: There is an LHA.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: LHA is like a derivative of BHA's.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: There is willow bark extract, there's a ceramide complex, but there's nothing necessarily innovative to this that we haven't seen before.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the price point, and the price point is very like mastige.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not interesting, but it's Alex Earl, and Alex Earl is like the pinnacle of white girl on social media.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like she did the she was just at the Super Bowl with Bad Bunny.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: She was on, she was performing with him.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Then you have Grow Good, which Girl Good is really interesting to me.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's the one I'm most hyped about.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I love Cardi.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think she's a personality, I think she's very, very smart.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And with that, the approach to Girl Good is the price point is really, really good, for lack of a better word.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's most of the price points are between$10 to$15.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: We were talking about this earlier, too.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's all based off of breakage and hair damage.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, as a dermatologist, that's something that I actually like, even though I haven't looked at the science behind it yet.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: But there are so many products out there that are targeted at people that are struggling with hair loss, like actual alopecia without saying it.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And there's like little to no science behind it, versus from what I've seen, these products are supposed to focus on anti-breakage, which is a totally different thing.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I think something that's really appropriate for like cosmetic hair products to focus on.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I agree.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know Javon, Javon Ford, he did a really good ingredient breakdown.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's all based off of a specific polymer or film former.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that's present in all of the SKUs thus far with the brand.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: But again, it's really accessible and I think it's a really fun brand.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And just in that, I'm like, okay, I I see this existing and I see this doing well, especially with a personality like Cardi behind it.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: That being said, compared to real activists, I don't not that I'm aware of, there's not like a Durham or a professional really behind the brand.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: They have a germ consultant.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: They do.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, whenever I say something critical about people's fave, they get angry at me, but I gotta be real with you.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: Everything that I learned about Alex Earl ever has been against my will, or should I say, incidental.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: She's not somebody that I really follow.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I do know that she really publicly documented her journey with acne and taking acutine and all of that, which I think doing that in public is a great thing, just because that medication, especially, has so much unwarranted stigma around it.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: So to see somebody who's a public figure like that talk about it so openly and about how it helped her and what the process was like, I think is a net positive.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: However, um, going into the acne space, which uh I feel like uh whatever comes out disappoints me again and again and again because we're not coming at it from you know a new perspective.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're basically saying, hey, I'm putting out products that are using all of the same ingredients and the same approach of everything that failed me to the point where I had to go to the derm and get Accutane.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: But here, let me sell this to you.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't seem genuine to me.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, not that I'm saying it's a bad business move.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: People associate her skin story with acne, but at the same time, you know, BHA, mandelic acid, which I don't know, aestheticians, you could yell at me up and down, but like argue amongst each other because there's just not as good data there.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's an AHA, yeah.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it could help some, especially with dispigmentation, and it's gentler than using like AHA, but it's not entering the poor.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: So and Centella.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Korean inspired, Korean inspired.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, I don't know.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: I I'll try the products if they happen to come across my desk or if I get them in PR, but like, I don't know.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think that brands need to take a different approach when it comes to acne products and encourage people to go to their doctor and get prescriptions and provide products that are gonna work well alongside that and support it, rather than saying, hey, we have the answer for you, and it's you know the same crap that you could get at the drugstore for the last 40-50 years.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: The ordinary.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that that you could you could buy those actives at the ordinary prices.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean it's not bad products.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Fundamentally, you're both saying that it's not a bad product, it's just something that is not revolutionary.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so I do not aspire to be a white girl.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: A white girl.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um nor do I.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not an aspirational, she's not aspirational to me.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: But then again, on the other hand, you have a Cardi B, which I'm like, ugh, love everything about her.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about doing something different, going a very different route and a new perspective, leaked labs.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: This has been all over my social media because they basically tried to be like, you know what, we're gonna be hyper innovative.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: We're giving you something you ain't never seen before, and they gave you the flexi powder pigment things, which objectively, a lot of the professionals I follow have been very neutral about, but then a lot of the their followers, a lot of just general consumers, have been pissed about because they're like, Why am I paying to do your market research?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Also, this is incredibly I'm not this is not my words, this is the consumer's words.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: This is incredibly unsanitary.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, they really try to do something different.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like I've said, it's like that meme, uh, yeah, let's let's criticize the girl who took a risk and did something different.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, honestly, uh, you know, full disclosure, I've met the lipstick lesbians like once or twice.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: They were perfectly nice to me.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that this isn't on its face a bad idea.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a very difficult puzzle to solve because I mean, you're trying to sell people an experience more than anything with this.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: They're saying, hey, if the products are a success, we'll put them into production.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And if you say you hate them, then we're not.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: So really, I think what they're trying to do here is to sell to people who are their audience who are interested in product development and like kind of giving them a look behind the scenes.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: I think where the difficulty comes in here is that you're actually also selling a product.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: So you kind of don't want to break this illusion that the customer is there with you behind the scenes, but at the same time, you have to assure people that like this is something that's safe.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: That I'm sure they've done stability testing, they've probably done microtesting, they've probably done all of those things, but it's like you can't lean on that too much because then it breaks the illusion that people are in on this journey with you.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like we are leaking this to you, it's very like behind the scenes, like shh, yeah.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I mean, also uh people are talking about the packaging, which I I get it, you know.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you may not put this thing into production and it needs special packaging that you can't just buy stock packaging for because the the uh texture of it is so different, I don't think people realize like custom packaging to make molds for it costs like$70,000,$80,000 or something like that.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that's that is a tooling cost that you pay before you make any packages at all.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: So to make that kind of investment for something that you may discontinue, I think is you know hard to deal with.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: So uh also you don't know what kind of uh batch size they're working in.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: So you people are complaining about the price, about the packaging, and it's like maybe you're trying to keep the cost down by using the stock packaging that can hold everything really cheaply, but you know, at the same time, people are saying it's so expensive, but maybe you're making it in small batches.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And for those of you who don't know, cosmetics or literally anything else, you have a minimum order quantity, and the less you order over that minimum, the more you pay per unit.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I I just think it it's it's a hard egg to crack in a way.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Fundamentally, I think part of it is they built this brand around them as this machine as a lipstick lesbian.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: So this specific launch just felt somewhat disconnected.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: But also with that, we see a lot of celebrands launch products that just aren't necessary.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like the criticism for them in this moment is actually very substantial, but I think it's because they are so forward-facing on social media and there was always that connection with their audience in the first place.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that itself is not helping their situation.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the founder of Mented Cosmetics did a really good video talking about, like, yes, this was an innovative concept in that it wasn't on the market, but realistically, what consumer need was a satisfying?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the other thing to kind of address.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I need this if in an eyeshadow or press palette I have the same exact pigment?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what need do I have for this?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think uh she made a very valid point in that video too, where she said, Yeah, I did one product where a manufacturer brought me an innovation and we made a product out of it, and I had to discontinue it because people weren't asking for it as excited as I was about it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, I think it's a really hard needle to thread.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of shocked me though is the amount of criticism that they got for it.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: It some of it was vicious, and I think potentially not deserved, just because I don't think a lot of these creators got the point.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think the point was to give you the best eyeshadow ever.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: It was to give you something to play with a little bit more and a different way to look at makeup, even though, yeah, it's not filling a gap.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: What happened to having fun?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: What happened to like enjoying something or really trying something that's not like you know, out of this world innovative, but it's just fun.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's a different texture, a different vehicle.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people were really going at them.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if it's just that people were specifically waiting for their downfall.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think about like me launching my line, and honestly, it seems like a lot of people didn't want to spend the amount of money, couldn't afford it, but uh the the only uh uh criticism that we've really got was on price point by people who couldn't afford it, or um yeah, the just people who didn't like the aesthetic of the clothes.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I didn't have to face anything like like what they got, um, including from people that they sent PR to, which you almost never see.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: I feel that most people who receive things like that in PR, it's like if they don't like it, they don't talk about it.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: Not not that that's what I do, it's like I will tell you when I get like a shit shit product, but uh I don't know why my mind just goes to it's like, oh, is it because they're women that they're getting more?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if, and you know, talking about Girl Good and Real Actives, it is a major, major creator or celebrity, and there's a lot of backing.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can't speak for Girl Good, I don't know who's behind that besides Cardi, but I think for real actives, I was reading a Women's Word Daily article about it.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Alex did it with a dermatologist, and she has VC backing for it.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like when you have that, and allegedly according to the story, allegedly, she had fully fleshed out the concept of this brand, a few iterations of product launches, like she had thought this out.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a machine behind it, and with Grow Good, I have to imagine the same similar concept.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a very fleshed out idea with leaked labs.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know who's behind that with the girls.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it really is just it could have been similar to with you and Soleil, like you have this idea, you have this passion project, and you developed it, bootstrapped it, like you did it on your own.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And with them again, they built this brand, this this platform around this idea, this concept, and this image.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, it's just like the launch was a little bit disconnected, but I think because of how they built everything with their followers, that might have led to just an easier avenue for the criticism, but also it being a less refined idea, potentially.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and also I think people aren't used to receiving something that that's that like early on, that's that unpolished in a way.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you and I we get lab samples all the time, so it's like it's stock packaging, it's it doesn't necessarily look pretty.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Usually it's just like a white tube with a sticker on it.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: On our end, the only thing it has to pass is essentially something we call like accelerated stability.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is this formula gonna stay stable if I put it in an oven at 40 degrees Celsius for a month to three months?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's the extent of the testing of the products that we develop and get on our end.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: So then there's so many levels of testing beyond that for the consumer's version of the product.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And even then for what we get, it's like a less refined version.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's in sample packaging, it's not a nice, pretty product.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And now consumers are seeing that.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, no, I mean, if they had sent that to me as a lab sample, I would have been like, this is a lab sample.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I wouldn't have thought anything of it.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Have you gotten, I mean, from like main like major brands, like early samples of product, and it's still in the sample packaging?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but it's it's the final itself.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we get it all the time where it's like, even for Desi Skin, they just launched an eye cream.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I got the sample of the eye cream like months ago, and it was in a little dinky package pump or plastic pump.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: But that's kind of like that's that's the behind the scenes, and so it's just funny, I guess, you know.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, as a consumer, as you're paying a pretty penny to Angela's point.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a low MOQ product, they're really doing it in a not so high quantity manufacturing, so it's gonna cost a lot of money.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: They are indie, it's gonna cost a lot of money.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think they got a lot of backing behind them, it's gonna cost a lot of money.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, to your point, they're women, they're queer women.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: We don't see a lot of queer women founded brands like that.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I think people just don't get the concept, is the thing.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't I don't think the concept was we're gonna serve you, you know, the best eyeshadow that you've ever tried.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: We're filling a gap.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but And Heike, I don't expect that from them.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Real talk, to me, they're not like they're not a makeup by Mario.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: They're not a Patrick Todd, they're not they are not a Pat McGrath.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna be so honest, like not that I follow their content religiously, but I also was not ex I didn't know what to expect.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: This doesn't shock me, and I wasn't expecting a super deluxe, super high-end, super luxurious concept either.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I wasn't expecting this concept either.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't think anybody well, uh probably people have thought of something like that before, like testing out a limited run of something or something like that, but yeah.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I hate to keep saying it, but I think like people just don't get it, is the thing.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, but I mean I feel like I get the concept, but not that I'm so into makeup, but also like I don't know.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: What I don't get what I don't get apparently is Alex Earl.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Again, to be very transparent, I did drag the brand the minute I saw what it was.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just in the context of it's not interesting, it's not new.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's a white girl influencer being plastered as the face of a brand.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not like she's I don't I don't watch her.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know how in-depth knowledge, I don't know how much in-depth knowledge she has about skincare, ingredients, actives, all that.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like what was the point of this?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's like point of view 2.0.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, what was the point of this?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: And what was the point of point of view?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what was the point of view for the for the brand?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I backtracked this in the context of you know what, she got young followers who probably do deal with acne.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think my biggest problem right now, kind of reflecting and being mindful, is I wish the price point was lower so that her younger fans probably could access it a little bit easier.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: But if not, they got the ordinary.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: I have so many thoughts right now.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: So, speaking of young followers, did you see there was this brand that launched at Sephora or Ulta, I forget what it's called, but it's the 13, 14-year-old influencer.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's two kid brands at Sephora.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was looking at this yesterday because I was trying to do a list of like sunscreens, and one of them launched like a very objectively bad sunscreen formulation.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I was like, common theme here.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: People mention these influencers, especially like the young ones.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea who they are.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: I've gone to events and they'll be like, I don't know.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: Bianca Fitzgerald is here, and I'm like, who the f is that?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: 13 year old legend, Bianca Fitzgerald.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and then, you know, I look it up, and it's like they have 50 million followers, and I'm like, I could not know.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there's two of them.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think the one you're thinking of is called Sincerely Yours.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the one where they did the influencer behind it, which again, who is this girl and what skincare knowledge does they have to be launching a brand?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I heard it's the parents who have been monetizing her likeness since she was a kid.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: We don't like that.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: We don't like that.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: But sh that was the brand where when it launched, they did an event at like Mall of America or whatever.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: Packed.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like all these little like teeny boppers were up in that mall.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was packed.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so like the interest for the girl is there, but is the interest there for the brand A and also B?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: I get the whole thing there was a push for these brands when the kids were up in Sephora, like testing and touching everything, but like can they afford this brand in the first place regardless?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, their parents could buy it for them, but like do they need that?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Is that a good idea?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, who gets to make a brand is really the question, and I think it's people with the following.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And audacity.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: And audacity.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: But it brings me to another point, which is something that I think about often.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you brought up Mario and Mama Pat and people like this.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's like just because you're a good makeup artist, I don't think that that means that you know how to make good makeup.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: Just because you're a dermatologist doesn't mean you know how to make good products.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: People hate when I say this.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: Road is a psyop.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: Follow me.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Haley started working on this with her two co-founders who are like industry people.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: This is something that we've talked about here before, but like a lot of celebrities launch with somebody behind the scenes who's like a business mind or who has worked in cosmetics before.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: But as they're working on this, she's posting more about beauty.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: She's posting more about her skincare.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there are publicists feeding beauty editors stories about the nails, the blueberry milk nails, whatever.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: And she started getting in touch with like skincare and beauty influencers ahead of time and befriending them.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Which, for those of you out in the skincare community who think that she just thought you were cool and became friendly with you for that, it was it was a transaction to know that you would be positive about the product when it came out.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: But all of this groundwork was laid before the brand came out, so that by the time that it launched, we already associated her with, you know, glazed donut skin, which by the way, she's not the originator of that term.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think she claims to be, but people attribute it to her.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was already synonymous with she was a beauty girl, she was a trendsetter, she was this, that, and the third.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: So when I say it's a psy-op, it's it's smart business because it worked.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: It really worked.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it was, I think, a masterclass in advertising and marketing your product in this day and age.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, let's not neglect the fact that she is a Nepo baby with a lot of financial means and privilege behind her as well, to have the connections and ability to launch the brand, get the right people behind her, and have the machine behind her to really build from the ground up all these months in advance.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, absolutely, and I think that's what people don't get about Nepo babies is like they're always saying, like, well, people like that work hard, they work for what they have.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: I hate when like celebrities are like, Well, you know, my kids, Tom Hanks said that acting was his family business, and that's why his sons have success.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Have you seen Chet Hayes?
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, no, but the point being, it's like, okay, yeah, if she wasn't part of that famous family, she never would have become a model, probably.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, sorry, that was more of like, is she a model?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: She was.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: A good one.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then, yeah, had that not happened, she wouldn't have been an influencer, she wouldn't have been married to the man that she's married to, and like that doesn't change the fact that she was smart in the way that she monetized that.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: But all that I'm saying is once she got to that point, I think that there was a lot of groundwork put into it that a lot of celebrities don't do.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think part of that is because a lot of them do come into a concept, a brand when it's already fully formed and they're just looking for somebody to be the face of it.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: So very superficial.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean This is when I say at least at the end of the day, white girl situation aside, I think Road is very smart marketing-wise.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where it's like master classes should be held, really.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Again, looking at the psyop of what road is, because I think it was done really well.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: As much as I don't like a lot of the things it stands for in this regard, it's so smart.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: And that's another thing where the products are not revolutionary.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're not bad though.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're not bad, but it's it's again not anything that you can't get anywhere else or for cheaper, or you know, peptide lip.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: There are other brands doing it.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: Five other brands just launched the same thing, so I think the sleeper hit of that brand for me is the moisturizer that they launched with.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's very nice, but the glazing fluid or the other one?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: The other one, the moisturizer.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: Not the barrier, it's like the glazing, the peptide cream or whatever.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: They launched with a three-step.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, the moisturizer is the winner for me.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: That serum I could take or leave.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I don't think that that brand is there to be revolutionary.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it is good marketing.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: So for somebody like Alex Earl, yeah.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Did did they lay all the groundwork?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the most interesting marketing things that they did that I saw written about was um the brand page actually started on TikTok as like a generic username.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So for those of you who don't know TikTok, you can actually just open it up and start posting without making an account, and it assigns you a username.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it'll be user and then a string of numbers.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: So they either opened an account with a generic username or just made that their username, username, whatever.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, they changed it because it became WTF is Alex Doing.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, after that.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: So um, yeah, it was content featuring Alex Earl.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was like hinting at the brand, but you didn't really know what it was about, and they created buzz that way.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that was interesting.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Again, strategy.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: But she is a huge machine on TikTok.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: She's this massive presence, and even so, I think masterclasses should be held on like what her strategy was to really grow and gain the like really devout audience that she has.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: But so much so that a random page pops up and it's her face, and people are like, let me follow this other page.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, here she is now.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: My one thing with this is the brand is called Real Actives, Real R-E-A-L-E, which is makes up the letters of Alex Earl, real.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, the SEO on that has to be horrible.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: You also need to find something that okay, when you're trying to name a brand, which was like over a year process for me, you have to find something that's not already trademarked, that also tells you about the brand, and in this case is gonna tell you about the founder, but at the same time, um, a lot of uh business people will tell you that your name should not be in the name of the product line.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, how do you walk that line?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you're our unless you're Rihanna herself, where Fenty is such a powerful iconic name that it can exist without you and still have that semblance of what it is.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like sorry, in like 10-15 years, is Alex Earl still gonna have that level of fame?
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, it'd make sense not to name the brand directly after her.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, especially if she wants to eventually sell it and right off into the sunset.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think an interesting fold in this is like, okay, we're talking about Alex Earl, we're talking about the lipstick lesbians, and then we also brought up Michaela and P.O.V.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people were I think rightfully confused when POV came out and it was skincare and not makeup, because they were like, She's not a skincare girl, she's a makeup girl, why not a makeup line?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what people don't realize is that when most of your money comes from brand deals, you can't cannibalize that.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: So for Michaela, if most of her brand deals are coming from makeup, she can't launch a makeup product and become a competitor because then she's gonna lose that stream of income mostly.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure some brands would still work with her, but you know, once you compete with them, it doesn't make sense anymore.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why, most likely, in my opinion, she launched skincare.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think with the lipstick lesbians, of course, they're gonna launch something that's kind of like off the wall and very different from what's out there, because then they're probably not gonna lose sponsors over that.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, nobody's making anything that competes with the product that they put out there, I don't think.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's like totally different.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and like I said, they're selling you the experience, not really the product.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Versus somebody like Alex Earl, I don't know what her advertiser mix is.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: I know she was, yeah, she was in a Super Bowl ad and all this stuff.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's like losing skincare deals probably isn't as big of an issue for her because when you're that level of influencer, you have all this other stuff that you could work on.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I don't know, maybe it makes sense.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: Even though, like I said, the product line doesn't make sense to me.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: So and that's where it's how sustainable are these influencer brands where they're just launching redundant white noise products on the market where it's like we didn't need this.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: Going back to POV, Michaela does talk a little bit about skin to some regard.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think she does have like some skin concerns or skin issues she deals with.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And she has sold out specific skin skews just by meshing them on her page organically.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, it's like a these are, in my opinion, they come across as very like white labeled.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna go to a manufacturer in Korea and just POV label on it, that's my product.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's nothing really revolutionary to the concept where again, why was it necessary?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting seeing this era, this current era.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I consider them like newer influencers launching the brands.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I look at at least one or two generations before them and the brands that they've launched.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like Jackie Aina is a really interesting example.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Where Jackie Ina, to me, she was complexion, she was base, she was she was skin as well.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: She launched candles.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: And Forever Mood, I don't love the scent stories.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm being very objective, but I think it was so interesting to go this different direction when, like, if you watch Jackie Aina, you know lifestyle for her has actually been a very core asset of her content.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she has her like, what is it, lavishly Jackie page where she looked like shows interior direct uh decorating and like all these different things in her house.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's where like forever mood fits for me.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Who else?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Desi Perkins, she has Desi skin.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, I don't know anything about Desi Perkins.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I know Jackie's content, but like again, that's somebody who was known in the beginning for like makeup, skincare, and all that, and then she launched candles.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean different, totally different.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like you don't lose sponsors.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you were to launch a product line that was not skin, what would it be?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: The three routes I would go shoes, specifically like loafers, men's underwear.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh, oh.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_01: I am very specific about men's underwear and wanting to do it in very specific style and a certain class level.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like especially for gay men's underwear, it gets so tacky so quick.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Andrew Christian.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: R.I.P.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: to that brand for good reason.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then the third would be I don't know.
• 34:51
  unknown: Smoothies.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Smoothies?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Smoothies.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: Smoothies.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: I love a smoothie.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I have a smoothie every day.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna get you an Erawan deal.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if I want to endorse a$25 smoothie.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, me neither.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, okay.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: What would you do to men's underwear to make it different?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_02: Take it off.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh! No, a really good example is my favorite underwear brand is called Charlie by MZ.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And because they give really, for lack of better words, really slutty silhouettes.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: They hug and they grip and they lift real good, but they look really high quality, really nice materials.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like they look, they give luxury, and they're not like super expensive.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: I always get them on sale, but they're really nice.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: I would just maybe do different materials, different silhouettes, different cuts.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: I have a few swimsuits from them, and I gotta say, like, yeah, nobody is doing like specifically.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: I have swim trunks from them, but like buying like typical swimsuits like that as a guy, usually it's like they're like the baggy ones that come down to your knee, it's giving like data at the beach with your kids.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no, I want them real tight.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: I want that like half inch inseam, like I want them up here.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, when you have the goods, you want to show them off.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: So exactly.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'd I'd wear them.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: What so we know you you launched soleil, obviously.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: What is what would be your other like non-skincare like endeavors?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean the first tabby boot knockoffs.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_02: No, the first the first thing off the top of my head would be like non-sun protective clothing.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, like more obviously, sole, you could take it from day to night, but we're built for sun protection.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: So the designs are all about that.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: They're all for being out in the daytime, covering up the side.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: I told him to launch a sole thong, and he was like, I don't, I don't see the vision, but I mean walk with me here.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, your nether regions do need sun protection too, but what about the rest of you?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Sunscreen, I guess.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I would probably want to do uh just like general clothing, so like more evening.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, you know what?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna pause Angelo there because I think one thing that we can both be on the same page about is when you're the stature statue, stature, stature that we are, it's so hard to find clothes that fit you really well and that look really nice and that fit.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean I'm five seven, you're five six.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: I got a fat ass for how short I am, and Angelo is chiseled.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like finding clothes that like fit and hug and like uh drape the right way, but when we're so petite is really hard.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_02: So we're actually gonna launch a clothing brand together for short stacked people.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: Baddies for baddies, baddies with fatties, um and tabbies.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that would be good.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's our next endeavor.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: I have thought about doing fragrance because I do love fragrance, but I don't know.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if people would buy it.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if they would they would like what I have to sell them because I'm very into like uh fragrances that like will evoke a memory or a feeling or aren't missing person.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh god, father figure.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh no, but like uh I really like the the Margella like replica fragrances because it's like it's a time and place and it brings you to an experience that you may have had.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think the fleur fragrances are pretty evocative, but like the whole thing about missing person and going back to Michaela, how she sold that shit out, like it smells like someone you love.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: It really just since it's a musk scent, it smells like perfume that is worn in that somebody has had on all day, or it's the feeling of I don't know, like when you were in high school and you got your boyfriend's like sweatshirt or something, and like his fragrance was like left over.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: His man musk.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm talking more about his axe body spray or something.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: His man musk.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: Or that.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um actually, wait, maybe that that would be the first fragrance, man musk.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: Man musk.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: I do, and people look at me crazy when I say this.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: I do have a fragrance that I have that I really like that I say smells like very expensive body odor.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Who was it by?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: Diptyque.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, no, I only say that because I have a friend who she was like, there's a fragrance that smells like, what was it?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: A man's erection?
• 39:36
  unknown: Hard penis.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hard penis.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I need to find this expeditiously, and I was very disappointed because I did not give that vibe.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I guess it depends on which one.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you know what, T.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of looking back on opinions on recently launched influencer brands, brand ideas that we would potentially have.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: What is an influencer brand that you think launched and did really, really well?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um that did really well.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we already said road being the psyop that it is, but I don't consider her an influencer though.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's the thing.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a lot of the ones that come to mind for me are like specific celebrities.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like Sacred.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: They did well around that, and I think that part of it was because Beyonce was at arm's length in a way.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and she would pop in when needed, but it's the brand kind of stood on its own too, and really it was interesting.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: Or yeah, I feel like that was handled well and it's pretty well regarded.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: I always go back to the outset, Scarlett Johansson.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Who is that brand?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's again not revolutionary, but the products are all really good and they've had stay power.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think they're in Sephora, so I feel like that was pretty well done.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but eventually it's like you end up with these brands that you can't get out of.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: Not to go back to Pat McGrath and like their troubles, but they had like a very high valuation at one point, and it wouldn't have been smart to get out, but they're still there.
• 41:12
  unknown: Yeah.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: But they've been they've been saved.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_02: For now.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: For now.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, and I think that's that's another thing.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: It seems like that brand was it's really what's inside her mind.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, they I don't think that there's like a whole ton of business prowess being pushed there, or at least there wasn't, in the initial thought behind it.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: They were like, oh, like we're making what she wants to use, which is fascinating.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: And mind you, she's a very technically skilled, talented, brilliant makeup artist, and the whole idea for the brand was these very pigmented shimmers, really, really graphic liners, all these things.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like, unless you have that skill set to replicate her looks, are you getting the same outcome?
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, most people aren't gonna wear that every day.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, they're gonna buy one palette and have it for 10 years or something because that's like your evening, weekend, special event, if you can even do it.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, I don't know, who do you think did well?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: No one.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm thinking I mean, I don't know if I consider her an influencer, but I started watching her on YouTube back in the day, Danessa Myrix.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: I followed her for like over 10 years, and I used to watch her like masterclasses on YouTube and just how she would educate and how she tackled things like complexion and dimension and all these factors.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's how I learned a lot about makeup and complexion and all that.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And seeing the growth, it was very gradual.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: There was not this like quick strategy, this quick boom behind it.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was a very slow growth.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I remember even three, four years ago, she was only on NCAPs at Sephora for a while.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, seeing where she is now, like meeting her a few times and really understanding, like, she is involved, heavily involved in the development, in the formulation, and the packaging.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've seen her at every trade show that the chemists go to.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: She really is there looking at what's new, what's innovative, what is actually practical for my consumer.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think she treads this balance of what Pat McGrath is in terms of like art and very, very editorial, but also bringing it back to very user-friendly, very everyday.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like my husband uses her blurring bomb every day when he does his makeup, or even just does skincare because it's mattifying, it's blurring, it's a very easy product to use.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: And she's the nicest person I've ever met.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: I've met her, yeah, she's really nice.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: She's genuinely so sweet.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I count her as an influencer.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Also, I'm just obsessed with Vanessa.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think one of the interesting things about that case is like that brand is really her baby, and like she's been building it for so long.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: But I also feel like in that time, her profile has risen, and in a way, both the brand and Her as a public figure feed each other in that way.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there are a lot of people who know the product line before they know who she is because it really can speak for itself.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then to your point, there are people who started out watching her on YouTube and then fan the products that way.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's kind of an ideal setup for something that's a little bit more sustainable.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, you want the brand's impact to really be there on its own, and you can like feed off of it too.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: And she's a testament to a hustle, a very slow, steady hustle.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: She has been working her ass off for a long time.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: So seeing her win, it is like as a fan, it's like, ugh, she deserved that for sure.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, do y'all have thoughts on any of this?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm sure you do.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to read some comments about it.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, tell us your thoughts on influencer brands, products, or lounges that you think were really great or really not great, unnecessary, and what influencer do you want to see start a brand?
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_02: And drop us five stars, a thumbs up, subscribe wherever you are watching or listening to this.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: And until next time.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.