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The Curse of Cassandra · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and what kind of
0:07
Speaker 1: stuff I never told you are protection by? I heard you,
0:18
Speaker 1: and today we are talking about a Greek mythological figure, Cassandra,
0:25
Speaker 1: who's had a huge impact and it continues to resonate
0:29
Speaker 1: to this day. I know we've talked about this before, Samantha,
0:33
Speaker 1: but were you Did you ever get into Greek mythology?
0:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, so all of the encyclopedias or like Britannicas or
0:41
Speaker 2: any of those, especially our children would have great myths
0:44
Speaker 2: as like one of them, and I would read through
0:46
Speaker 2: all of those. I was very fascinated with Greek myths,
0:50
Speaker 2: Roman myths, which kind of had a whole tie into it.
0:52
Speaker 2: So yes, I may have forgotten though quite a bit
0:56
Speaker 2: of it though, But when you remind me like, oh.
0:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you know about Cassandra?
1:01
Speaker 2: I did not. I did not until I came into
1:05
Speaker 2: you and said my partner said this phrase, and I
1:08
Speaker 2: just stared at him and I was like, who's Cassandra?
1:11
Speaker 2: And he said do you not know about this saying?
1:13
Speaker 2: And I was like no, And.
1:17
Speaker 1: I immediately was like here's Ally.
1:20
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.
1:22
Speaker 1: Yes. So this is a topic that is inspired by
1:28
Speaker 1: Samantha's partner who then asked me and then I was like, yes,
1:32
Speaker 1: let's do it. You can see I would say relevant
1:36
Speaker 1: past episodes are why didn't you believe her? That I
1:40
Speaker 1: did with Friend of the show and at that time
1:45
Speaker 1: to post and at current moment host over on the
1:49
Speaker 1: other podcast, I do save her and it was all
1:52
Speaker 1: about yeah, why it was tying in the kind of
1:54
Speaker 1: the politics of not believing women with this history that
1:59
Speaker 1: we see in media. Also you can see the episode
2:02
Speaker 1: we did, a book club episode we did on the
2:04
Speaker 1: book Circe related all right, So yes, I, through your partner,
2:14
Speaker 1: have learned that I guess this is coming back this
2:18
Speaker 1: idea of I don't want to be a Cassandra or
2:20
Speaker 1: I'm tired of being a Cassandra. This isn't new, but
2:24
Speaker 1: it's having any resurgence, and we will talk about that
2:29
Speaker 1: and why I think it is at the end. But yes,
2:34
Speaker 1: I was big into Greek mythology as well. But I
2:40
Speaker 1: also have told this story of many times watched the
2:45
Speaker 1: Scream movies when I was far too young to be
2:48
Speaker 1: watching them, and the second Scream movie when Sydney goes
2:54
Speaker 1: to college, she is an actress and she is in
2:58
Speaker 1: this play where she plays Sondra Yes, and she has
3:03
Speaker 1: this whole scary scene where she foresees the fall of
3:08
Speaker 1: Troy and there's lollble, lights are going wild and everybody's
3:12
Speaker 1: wearing masks, and then of course she sees ghost Face
3:14
Speaker 1: in there, you know. But she's saying, like, no one
3:17
Speaker 1: believes me. I'm seeing all these horrible things and no
3:20
Speaker 1: one believes me, And so of course I had to
3:22
Speaker 1: look it up. I had to learn this Cassandra. So
3:27
Speaker 1: that's the first time I remember learning about her. She
3:33
Speaker 1: the play Cassandra is also the play the last play
3:38
Speaker 1: that happens in the Last of US two in the
3:41
Speaker 1: video game before everything shut down. In the show, it's
3:47
Speaker 1: Sick Habit, which is a made up band in the universe,
3:50
Speaker 1: but in the game it is the play Cassandra is
3:54
Speaker 1: what is on their Kind of Theater home based Marquee.
3:58
Speaker 1: Then just this year, Taylor No It's twenty thirty five.
4:02
Speaker 1: Just in twenty twenty four, Taylor Swift released the song
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Speaker 1: Cassandra and I was going to read some lyrics. You're
4:09
Speaker 1: gonna get some song lyrics.
4:11
Speaker 2: In here, excited. I'm not going to sing.
4:13
Speaker 1: I'm not going to sing. This song has been stuck
4:15
Speaker 1: in my head though, since I've been doing this research.
4:19
Speaker 1: So when the first stones thrown, they're screaming, and the
4:22
Speaker 1: street there's a raging riot. When it's burned, the they're shrieking.
4:26
Speaker 1: When the truth comes out, it's quiet. So they killed
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Speaker 1: Cassandra first because she feared the worst and tried to
4:31
Speaker 1: tell the town. So they set my life in flames.
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Speaker 1: I regret to say, do you believe me now? And
4:38
Speaker 1: then there's also an Abba song. There's actually several songs,
4:41
Speaker 1: but these are the two that I know. Yes, So
4:45
Speaker 1: here's some some quotes from the Abba song, pity Cassandra
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Speaker 1: that no one believed you, But then again, you were
4:52
Speaker 1: lost from the start. Now we must suffer and sell
4:55
Speaker 1: our secrets, bargain, playing smart, aching in our hearts. Sorry, Cassandra,
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Speaker 1: I misunderstand now. The last day is dawning. Some of
5:02
Speaker 1: us wanted, but none of us would listen to the
5:04
Speaker 1: words of warning. But on the darkest of nights, nobody
5:08
Speaker 1: knew how to fight, and we were caught in our sleep. Son,
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Speaker 1: I mean, if you don't know the story of Cassandra,
5:15
Speaker 1: I feel like you're probably getting a vibe here already, right, Yes,
5:20
Speaker 1: I would also say just this theme is relevant in
5:23
Speaker 1: horror movies, Like eighty percent horror movies has something that
5:27
Speaker 1: goes along these lines. Also, this brought back a memory
5:32
Speaker 1: for me. One of my best friends, uh we in
5:38
Speaker 1: eighth grade, we tried to sneak into the R rated
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Speaker 1: film Troy.
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Speaker 2: And none of all films that one ge.
5:49
Speaker 1: Was wearing a middle school track shirt. And so the
5:54
Speaker 1: person selling the tickets was like, no, no, no, no,
5:58
Speaker 1: no no. And so then we said mean girls and
6:02
Speaker 1: bought tickets for that, and then we went to go
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Speaker 1: watch Troy. But you know, looking back, I'm like, wow,
6:08
Speaker 1: but my whole life I could have diverged, but I
6:13
Speaker 1: looked it up. I haven't seen that movie since then.
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Speaker 1: Cassandra is not in it. Yes, yes, But with all
6:20
Speaker 1: of this this clear impact that Cassandra has had on
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Speaker 1: media on me, let's talk about the history and the myth.
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Speaker 1: So in Greek mythology, Cassandra was an intelligent, brave, mortal
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Speaker 1: princess of the ancient, powerful, wealthy city state of Troy,
6:41
Speaker 1: which was located in what is now Turkey, which is
6:44
Speaker 1: a real city by the way, you can look it up,
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Speaker 1: and was the process of Apollo who gifted her with
6:50
Speaker 1: the ability to accurately and precisely predict the future. She
6:55
Speaker 1: features heavily and several tragedies, including essuelas Agamemnon, which shelves
7:01
Speaker 1: into her prophecies and the events leading to the fall
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Speaker 1: of Troy and her death, Euripides The Trojan Women, which
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Speaker 1: highlighted the pain and suffering of Trojan women after Troy's
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Speaker 1: fall and the injustice done to Cassandra specifically, and then
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Speaker 1: Virgil's I Need, which described the fall of Troy, fate
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Speaker 1: and Cassandra's role and all of it. She's been in
7:21
Speaker 1: a lot of other things from that time, but those
7:23
Speaker 1: were the three big ones. She was the daughter of
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Speaker 1: the last king and Queen of Troy, King Priam and
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Speaker 1: Queen Hecuba. Stepping aside a bit. Priam's father angered the
7:36
Speaker 1: gods by not repaying them for building the wall around
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Speaker 1: Troy and other things, so they killed him and the
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Speaker 1: rest of his family, leaving only Priam alive. Priam went
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Speaker 1: on to have a boatload of children, perhaps up to
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Speaker 1: one hundred, including Cassandra. Like he was like, my whole
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Speaker 1: family died, I'm going to have this huge family and
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Speaker 1: hopefully someone will make it out. He also fathered Prince Paris,
8:02
Speaker 1: who set off the Trojan War by running away with
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Speaker 1: or kidnapping Helen. Depending on what you read and how
8:10
Speaker 1: you interpret it, t Yeah, yes, the wife of the
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Speaker 1: king of Sparta. So he basically, oh gosh, this is
8:21
Speaker 1: such a complicated family story to tell, but he all right,
8:29
Speaker 1: let me step back. I'll get to that a second.
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Speaker 1: Depending on what you read, Cassandra desperately tried to stop Paris,
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Speaker 1: like begging him, please do not go to Sparta, do
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Speaker 1: not have any contact with Helen, and definitely do not
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Speaker 1: bring her back to Troy. In some versions, she even
8:46
Speaker 1: requested he be killed as an infant because she knew
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Speaker 1: his actions would lead to the downfall of Troy. Of course,
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Speaker 1: he didn't listen to her, and everything she foresaw came
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Speaker 1: to fruition. His abduction, slash elopement of Helen to Troy
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Speaker 1: led to the Spartans laying siege on the city. The
9:09
Speaker 1: Trojans held off the Spartans for nine years, but the
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Speaker 1: whole area around them was kind of getting decimated and
9:15
Speaker 1: they were taking in prisoners, and then they set up
9:19
Speaker 1: this trap that led to the final blow and the
9:22
Speaker 1: fall of Troy. Hector was another of Cassandra's siblings, the
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Speaker 1: most skilled warrior in Troy until Achilles killed him. This
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Speaker 1: is one of those episodes where I'm like, I just
9:34
Speaker 1: don't have time to explain the history and who everyone is.
9:38
Speaker 1: I feel like people know Achilles, at least they know
9:40
Speaker 1: Achilles heel, but that's kind of a big that's kind
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Speaker 1: of a big deal, and this all kind of happened
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Speaker 1: after Hector killed achilles friend and possible lover, Patrick Collis.
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Speaker 1: Achilles was so infuriated and full of vengeance after that
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Speaker 1: that he slays Hector, drags his body around behind his
10:02
Speaker 1: chariot in front of the walls of Troy, refusing to
10:05
Speaker 1: return him to a failing for a proper burial as
10:08
Speaker 1: was custom. However, Priam snuck into the Greek camp and
10:13
Speaker 1: convinced Achilles to turn over his son's body, and Paris
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Speaker 1: later kills Achilles. Oh my goodness. Cassandra also has a
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Speaker 1: twin brother, Helenus, who had the power of prophecy too.
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Speaker 1: In some versions, Apollo gave it to him as well,
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Speaker 1: and other versions Cassandra taught him, but people believed him.
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Speaker 1: They did not believe her. He may have got his
10:38
Speaker 1: powers from Polo, but there's a later version where they
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Speaker 1: both got their powers after they were left in Apollo's temple,
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Speaker 1: his babies and a serpent licked their ears clean so
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Speaker 1: that they could hear things more clearly and divine things
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Speaker 1: from nature. Most of the stuff I read said that
10:55
Speaker 1: came much like that was somebody having fun much later
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Speaker 1: after they original were written. But I did want to
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Speaker 1: mention it because it does come up quite a bit.
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Speaker 1: And if you're already like, wait, you're giving several facts
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Speaker 1: that don't align, yes, because these are very old, right,
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Speaker 1: and people had a lot of versions of them.
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Speaker 2: So right, and again like the Roman gods were similar
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Speaker 2: and had different stories but had like again similar that
11:22
Speaker 2: they're same with different ideals, names and places, so like,
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Speaker 2: there's so many things. Because I remember being really confused.
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Speaker 2: I'm like, wait this, I've heard this story before, but
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Speaker 2: it's this and realizing it's switched up, so that, yeah,
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Speaker 2: the narrative is very different.
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Speaker 1: Yes, it's just slightly different enough to be like hmm, okay, okay,
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Speaker 1: but that let us get back to the generally told version,
11:47
Speaker 1: because this is Greek mythology. Unfortunately, for Cassandra, she was
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Speaker 1: very beautiful, perhaps the most beautiful of Priam's numerous daughters,
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Speaker 1: which in summer countings, is why Apollo gave her the
12:01
Speaker 1: gift in the first place. At the time, such a
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Speaker 1: gift would have been highly revered because you know, it's
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Speaker 1: the time of ancient Greece. There's a lot of stuff
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Speaker 1: that wasn't understood. You have these guides. If you had
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Speaker 1: the power of prophecy and could see what was coming,
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Speaker 1: that would be a really valuable thing. She rejected sooner
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Speaker 1: after suitor incruding Apollo who made these advances towards her,
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Speaker 1: and when she rejected those advances, he accepted completely gracefully. Nope,
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Speaker 1: just kidding. He tried to take back the gift, but
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Speaker 1: discovered that gods can't take back gifts like that. It
12:41
Speaker 1: was like a little contract like no no returns. So
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Speaker 1: instead he cursed her so no one would believe her prophecies.
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Speaker 1: It's a real, real class act. Yeah, so emotional. Yep,
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Speaker 1: her gift then becomes a curse if you don't know again,
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Speaker 1: Apollo is the son of Zeus, the king of the gods,
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Speaker 1: and he is the god of white poetry and music
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Speaker 1: and prophecy. A bunch of other stuff, but those main things.
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Speaker 1: Some recountings detail how Cassandra considered Apollo's romantic advances at first,
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Speaker 1: like she was sort of thinking about it and maybe
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Speaker 1: even encouraged them, but ultimately decided they were better off
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Speaker 1: not being together romantically. And some other versions she agreed
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Speaker 1: to pursue romance with him in order to get the gift,
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Speaker 1: but then fact out I would say, in any case
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Speaker 1: he's dead.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah.
13:43
Speaker 1: I agree, And I mean if you just sit and
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Speaker 1: think about how terrible this is like to know what's
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Speaker 1: coming and have no one believe you. It was a
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Speaker 1: really brutal curse, and it worked. No one believed Cassandra's
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Speaker 1: vision of the future, ones that she knew were true.
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Speaker 1: People speculated that she'd lost her mind and may have
14:08
Speaker 1: even imprisoned her at one point. Still, she kept trying
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Speaker 1: to convince people of the truth of her prophecies, and
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Speaker 1: this was particularly painful when it did come to some
14:19
Speaker 1: of these huge tragedies that she foresaw that could have
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Speaker 1: been prevented if people believed her. And yes, one of
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Speaker 1: the most disastrous cases was when she foresaw the destruction
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Speaker 1: of Troy. She foresaw the Trojan Horse, but no one
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Speaker 1: believed her, and Troy fell, along with a lot of
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Speaker 1: her family. And I mean when it fell, almost everybody
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Speaker 1: was slaughtered. Hardly anybody escaped. She tried desperately to stop
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Speaker 1: the Trojans from allowing this giant wooden horse within their walls,
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Speaker 1: knowing it was full of Spartan soldiers, the best of
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Speaker 1: their soldiers, but no one listened. She took an axe
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Speaker 1: to the horse. The Trojans, who believed it was a
15:01
Speaker 1: gift of surrender from the Spartans and a sign of
15:04
Speaker 1: their victory, stopped her. But again she was right and
15:09
Speaker 1: Troy was destroyed. Things did not get better after that
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Speaker 1: for Cassandra. She knew the destruction was coming, so she
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Speaker 1: took shelter in Athena's temple, clinging to the statue of
15:21
Speaker 1: Athena for protection, but was discovered by Spartan soldiers. Of
15:26
Speaker 1: the people who found her was this soldier named Ajax
15:28
Speaker 1: the Lesser, who was second only to Achilles and his
15:33
Speaker 1: abilities as a soldier. He dragged her from the altar
15:36
Speaker 1: and viciously raped her oh why yeah in some versions,
15:41
Speaker 1: in front of her father before they killed him. Athena
15:47
Speaker 1: later enlisted the help of Poseidon got at the sea
15:49
Speaker 1: for revenge on Cassandra's path because she was taking shelter
15:54
Speaker 1: under Athena's protection, and he violated that. And Poseidon sank
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Speaker 1: a good portion of the Greek fleet and killed Ajax
16:02
Speaker 1: especially Ajax survived the sinking. He was clinging to a rock,
16:06
Speaker 1: and Persuiden was like nope and threw the trident at
16:09
Speaker 1: the rock and killed him. This is part of the
16:12
Speaker 1: story told in the Odyssey, by the way rough Sea's part.
16:17
Speaker 1: Ajax's abduction of Cassandra is featured in a lot of
16:20
Speaker 1: art art uh So. The Greek king Agamemnon, who was
16:28
Speaker 1: the victor in the Trojan War, took her as a concubine,
16:31
Speaker 1: eventually giving birth. She gave birth to twins from him.
16:36
Speaker 1: When she tried to warn him that they would die
16:38
Speaker 1: if they returned to Greece, that they would be murdered,
16:42
Speaker 1: he didn't believe her, and the prophecy came true. Agamemnon's
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Speaker 1: wife Clytemnestra and her lover Aegis. This killed them both
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Speaker 1: and the twins. Clytemnestra was angry that Agamemnon had sacrificed
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Speaker 1: their daughter to the gods, and that he had taken
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Speaker 1: Cassandra as a concubine, which I feel was not on her,
17:05
Speaker 1: but okay. Depictions of her either showcase her beauty or
17:12
Speaker 1: her absolute despair, because that is where her story ends.
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Speaker 1: Some even show her ripping her hair out because no
17:19
Speaker 1: one believes what she has to say. And I would
17:23
Speaker 1: also like to know how much of this as men
17:26
Speaker 1: or men the gods wanting to possess a beautiful young woman,
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Speaker 1: Apollo mad at being rejected by a beautiful woman, Paris
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Speaker 1: starts a war by kidnapping Slash running off with Helen
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Speaker 1: the most beautiful mortal Woman, which was a prize he
17:39
Speaker 1: chose from the gods. That was the part I didn't
17:41
Speaker 1: get into earlier. But he had this whole thing where
17:44
Speaker 1: he could have chosen three prizes, and the one he
17:46
Speaker 1: chose was I want to be with the most beautiful woman.
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Speaker 1: Agamemnon enslaves Cassandra. Helenus goes on to be king. Meanwhile,
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Speaker 1: Cassandra's story did resonate with many, and it is one
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Speaker 1: of the most memorable. The tragedy of someone who warns
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Speaker 1: us of future danger, who is ignored, who is silenced
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Speaker 1: until it is too late is unfortunately one that many
18:27
Speaker 1: can relate to or have seen, raising your voice, ringing
18:31
Speaker 1: that warning bell, trying to protect the ones you love,
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Speaker 1: knowing what is coming, and not being able to do
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Speaker 1: anything to stop it. Like it's just a really visceral,
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Speaker 1: terrifying feeling, and I can see it would make you
18:44
Speaker 1: feel like ripping out your hair and feel like you're
18:46
Speaker 1: losing your minds, which brings us to the Cassandra complex.
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Speaker 1: So nowadays there is something called the Cassandra complex, our
18:56
Speaker 1: Cassandra syndrome, or Cassandra phenomenon which describe situations or valid
19:02
Speaker 1: warnings were dismissed and ignored. French philosopher Gaston Bechlar was
19:08
Speaker 1: the first to use the term in nineteen forty nine.
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Speaker 1: Over time, it has been used in all kinds of contexts, politics, business,
19:15
Speaker 1: and even things like climate change, where despite substantial evidence,
19:19
Speaker 1: warnings are ignored. This is also true in areas where
19:23
Speaker 1: economists predict recessions are people in tech raise questions about tech,
19:28
Speaker 1: and then are accused of holding everyone back, like preventing progress.
19:33
Speaker 1: When it comes to psychology, it isn't a formal diagnosis,
19:36
Speaker 1: but it is often used to describe someone who feels
19:40
Speaker 1: an impending sense of doom and can do nothing to
19:44
Speaker 1: change it, and no one's listening to them. It is
19:47
Speaker 1: an isolating, frightening, frustrating feeling, and just not a good feeling.
19:52
Speaker 2: I've seen it being used in context to like no
19:56
Speaker 2: typical people trying to talk about their partners if they
19:59
Speaker 2: are not if they have neurodivergent diagnosis but it's not
20:02
Speaker 2: been diagnosed yet, and no one believes the sentence. They
20:06
Speaker 2: call that Cassandra syndrome, Like, wait, you're dignosing them from
20:10
Speaker 2: noticing other diagnoses. I don't understand, which is an interesting concept.
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Speaker 1: It is, and it relates to my next point. Eh.
20:20
Speaker 1: On a more personal level, you may have seen this
20:24
Speaker 1: kind of thrown around when you're warning a friend about
20:27
Speaker 1: a toxic relationship and they don't listen to you. Or
20:31
Speaker 1: as a parent, you might get warnings about your child
20:33
Speaker 1: that you dismiss because it's uncomfortable ignoring medical advice or
20:38
Speaker 1: early symptoms of something. It could be like way more
20:42
Speaker 1: complicated than that, obviously, because the medical field we get
20:46
Speaker 1: misdiagnoses all the time, but that kind of idea, these
20:50
Speaker 1: are still instances that could be labeled or fall under
20:54
Speaker 1: the Cassandra complex. There are a lot of reasons people
20:58
Speaker 1: ignore warnings with evidence, a lot of evidence even to
21:03
Speaker 1: back them up, bias, not trusting sources, doubting the credibility
21:08
Speaker 1: of sources, group think, social pressure, just don't want to
21:13
Speaker 1: deal with it, vibe and not thinking about the future,
21:17
Speaker 1: and dismissing someone who is marginalized, which Cassandra. She would
21:25
Speaker 1: have been more privileged as a pretty princess, but she
21:29
Speaker 1: would have been marginalized at the time. There's also something
21:34
Speaker 1: called the Apollo archetype, which is sort of the antithesis
21:38
Speaker 1: that basically entails someone who is all about being reasonable.
21:42
Speaker 1: So in this case, sort of like Helenus is making
21:47
Speaker 1: these prophecies, but they're like he's reasonable, though Cassandra does
21:51
Speaker 1: it like, oh, that's a hysterical woman that cannot be
21:57
Speaker 1: And she did get a lot of she got a
22:01
Speaker 1: lot of that kind of flack of she is a
22:04
Speaker 1: woman who's got doo any emotions. We need to keep
22:07
Speaker 1: her behind closed doors and we don't need to keep
22:11
Speaker 1: her quiet. Uh huh. But she really she to her credit,
22:17
Speaker 1: and the real tragedy of it is she never stopped trying.
22:19
Speaker 1: She never stopped trying to prevent these things and to
22:25
Speaker 1: warn people. It's just a shame that she had to
22:30
Speaker 1: go through all of that and she knew, like, can
22:33
Speaker 1: you imagine seeing your death coming and knowing like, oh
22:36
Speaker 1: my god, why won't they just listen? Right right? The
22:41
Speaker 1: death of your family. There is also another rabbit hole
22:47
Speaker 1: you can go down if you would like, you can.
22:49
Speaker 1: It's called real life Cassandra's. So, for instance, there are
22:56
Speaker 1: diplomats who tried to stop war. There's several cases of that,
23:00
Speaker 1: economists who tried to stop the sessions. Officials who tried
23:04
Speaker 1: to warn about COVID.
23:06
Speaker 2: Nobody listened, and they're still demonized.
23:09
Speaker 1: Yes, sorry, oh my gosh, I'm just trying to tell
23:15
Speaker 1: you what's happening.
23:17
Speaker 2: This is what's happening. Can you do today? Is liberal
23:21
Speaker 2: agenda to make us wear masks? Are right?
23:28
Speaker 1: What a power? Also, somebody who just leaves like a
23:33
Speaker 1: big wooden horse outside, open it outside.
23:38
Speaker 2: Also like what is it like? Why would you like
23:41
Speaker 2: this so much? That's a wooden horse, sir, Yeah, it's
23:44
Speaker 2: not like it's marble.
23:46
Speaker 1: We don't need to bring it in, leave it out.
23:49
Speaker 1: There was no need, no need at all. Then, you know.
23:54
Speaker 1: Also historically we do have hysteria, which was the thing,
24:00
Speaker 1: hysterical emotional woman that we don't believe. It was a
24:03
Speaker 1: thing in the sense that people thought that's what was
24:05
Speaker 1: going on or it's not really what was going on.
24:08
Speaker 1: And then presently things like not believing women when it
24:11
Speaker 1: comes to health or anything or anything, right, which brings
24:16
Speaker 1: me to the next one, hashtag me too. Yeah, that
24:19
Speaker 1: was another example where for so long women have been saying,
24:24
Speaker 1: you know, hey, this is a real problem, and then
24:28
Speaker 1: when it finally unleashes online becomes this big movement, it's
24:35
Speaker 1: a witch hunt. It's all these women who are trying
24:39
Speaker 1: to like punish men.
24:42
Speaker 2: Can't be nice or we're gonna be told that we're
24:44
Speaker 2: being harassing. Sir, we know what nice is. This is
24:47
Speaker 2: not it?
24:48
Speaker 1: No, no, it's not. And do you think this is fun?
24:51
Speaker 1: Like this is a miserable, painful experience.
24:55
Speaker 2: Right, The fact that mostly women are being ostracized and
24:59
Speaker 2: fired or being pushed out because they have been harassed
25:02
Speaker 2: and actually wanted to stop it.
25:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and we have, unfortunately, I mean, in some
25:10
Speaker 1: ways fortunately, I guess, but in a lot of ways unfortunately,
25:12
Speaker 1: we have some pretty high profile sexual assault plus a
25:16
Speaker 1: lot of other thing cases going on right now in
25:18
Speaker 1: the US.
25:19
Speaker 2: I mean, people like pe did it just got Yeah,
25:24
Speaker 2: And a.
25:25
Speaker 1: Lot of the discourse around it is like look at
25:27
Speaker 1: these women, right, but uh kind of another example of
25:33
Speaker 1: that is whistleblers. I would say, who will say, you know,
25:38
Speaker 1: this is a this is a real problem and are
25:42
Speaker 1: just completely often completely ignored, are silenced. And this is
25:50
Speaker 1: a bigger issue than for this episode, but it is
25:54
Speaker 1: really related this whole idea of like dismantling expertise when
25:58
Speaker 1: it's inconvenient. So when your expertise is saying I can
26:02
Speaker 1: go about living my life, I love that. That's great.
26:06
Speaker 1: I don't have to make any changes. But when it's
26:08
Speaker 1: saying this is a real problem you need we all
26:11
Speaker 1: need to make a change, then it's oh, who do
26:15
Speaker 1: you think you are? What do you really know?
26:17
Speaker 2: Right? Choosing much change doesn't exist? What are you talking about?
26:22
Speaker 2: Big corporations? Love me, They're not polluting the world if
26:26
Speaker 2: only you would recycle?
26:28
Speaker 1: Right, it snowed last year, can't.
26:32
Speaker 2: Be it's so cold now for a day? Yes?
26:39
Speaker 1: Oh, but I mean that's also it's frustrating in terms
26:44
Speaker 1: of the skills, like having these skills are this knowledge
26:49
Speaker 1: and seeing these consequences of ignoring these experiences, especially of
26:56
Speaker 1: marginalized people. It's not that no one and can't understand,
27:02
Speaker 1: because some people paint it as like I read an
27:04
Speaker 1: article about Cassandra that was wondering if maybe we've painted
27:10
Speaker 1: Cassandras into too much of a like no one can
27:12
Speaker 1: be on their level. But it's not that because they're
27:16
Speaker 1: kind of they're breaking it down for you. That's like
27:18
Speaker 1: their goals to get you to understand.
27:21
Speaker 2: Right.
27:22
Speaker 1: But people just a lot of people, for one reason
27:26
Speaker 1: or another don't listen or don't want to listen. And
27:34
Speaker 1: that's been a long that's that's an old idea that
27:37
Speaker 1: why do we tear down people who have knowledge? We've
27:40
Speaker 1: done that forever and then it's sort of a shoot
27:45
Speaker 1: the messenger type thing of blaming experts when their predictions
27:48
Speaker 1: come true. Right, And some people were even talking about,
27:54
Speaker 1: you know, why would you want to be a Cassandra
27:56
Speaker 1: in this case because keeping your mouth shut would be
27:59
Speaker 1: better because you'd be punished for being a Cassandra. Right, Yeah,
28:04
Speaker 1: all killed or killed m yep. And a lot of Cassandra's,
28:11
Speaker 1: especially women in marginalized folks, have been buriased but that
28:16
Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of reasons why I
28:18
Speaker 1: think it's resonating now. I think that marginalized folks feel
28:24
Speaker 1: that they've been sounding alarmed for years and years and
28:26
Speaker 1: years and years, and this burden of truth and this
28:36
Speaker 1: kind of dealing with this whole people being annoyed. I
28:41
Speaker 1: think kind of a backlash about do I and stuff
28:45
Speaker 1: might be an example of this, but being annoyed, like
28:48
Speaker 1: you're bringing too much attention to this thing. It's not
28:51
Speaker 1: that big of a deal, but it is and it
28:53
Speaker 1: has been. And then there's this sort of other idea
28:58
Speaker 1: of people getting really angry. Do we not know this
29:00
Speaker 1: when people did know this? Yeah, they've been saying it.
29:04
Speaker 2: Right, we've been saying the fact that they're going after
29:07
Speaker 2: trans people and just because you're not trans doesn't mean
29:09
Speaker 2: it's not going to fall on you. The same thing
29:12
Speaker 2: as they're going after the black community, and just because
29:14
Speaker 2: you're not black doesn't mean they're not coming after you next.
29:17
Speaker 2: It's kind of the same thing as they're going after
29:19
Speaker 2: immigrant people. At first, it was the Muslim community saying
29:21
Speaker 2: they're trying to protect the you know, from terrorists because
29:25
Speaker 2: we have so many bad players. I'm saying that sarcastically
29:31
Speaker 2: that they use that, and the next like they win
29:35
Speaker 2: the Latino votes, saying that, yeah, those are the bad
29:37
Speaker 2: people for sure. For sure they are or like queer
29:40
Speaker 2: people for bad. And then they're like, oh wait, they're
29:43
Speaker 2: gonna get us too, okay, and the other minorities, including
29:46
Speaker 2: Asian communities, who are like, but we're fine because you know,
29:49
Speaker 2: we're the model minority and they're getting just as many
29:52
Speaker 2: people being deported out. You're like, ah, that was the
29:56
Speaker 2: Cassandra call. You're not listening to when they come for all.
29:59
Speaker 2: They will eventually when they come for one, they're going
30:01
Speaker 2: to come for all, like it's it's happening and no
30:04
Speaker 2: one's listening. Yeah, they really think that they're protected somehow
30:10
Speaker 2: or it doesn't really affect them. That's the other part
30:12
Speaker 2: is that like as where they just not believe them.
30:14
Speaker 2: They just don't believe it's going to affect them personally.
30:18
Speaker 1: That's true. And of course I got to put in
30:30
Speaker 1: another another NERD reference because I just do this. I
30:34
Speaker 1: was thinking about this in another context because I feel
30:37
Speaker 1: like there's this thing I've talked about it before called
30:40
Speaker 1: the Iceman list, which is basically like if you look
30:44
Speaker 1: back at a lot of a lot of eighties movies,
30:48
Speaker 1: the villain kind of maybe they were a jerk but
30:52
Speaker 1: was kind of right, Yeah, but they're they're very painted
30:55
Speaker 1: as villainous. But a lot of times it's like you know,
30:57
Speaker 1: the EPA guy and Ghostbusters saying, you know, hey, this
31:01
Speaker 1: is not this is bad right, or like it's Goose
31:05
Speaker 1: in top gun me, like this is not safe. I
31:07
Speaker 1: guess what happened to Goose? Like there. I think there's
31:11
Speaker 1: also a villainizing of Cassandra's in that way. But I
31:18
Speaker 1: also just have to mention, Okay, there's this character name
31:22
Speaker 1: Fives from Star Wars. Okay, so he he was a
31:27
Speaker 1: Clone and he the Clones all had these chips in
31:32
Speaker 1: their heads and that's how the Jedi were pretty much
31:36
Speaker 1: wiped out because they couldn't sense what was coming in
31:38
Speaker 1: the forest because the Clones didn't sense what was coming
31:40
Speaker 1: in the force because they didn't know they had these
31:41
Speaker 1: chips in their head. Right, But Fives found out about
31:47
Speaker 1: is from the Clone Wars show. Oh okay, yes, but
31:52
Speaker 1: I have a friend who just texted me it was like,
31:54
Speaker 1: I cannot believe you've turned me into this Star Wars person.
31:57
Speaker 1: And now I can't unsee all the parallels in our society.
32:00
Speaker 1: And I was like, I know, But anyway, fives he
32:06
Speaker 1: learns and he figures it out, and no one listens
32:09
Speaker 1: to him, and they think he's like this big conspiracy theorist.
32:13
Speaker 1: But his friends and Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi
32:17
Speaker 1: also as friends, they're like, you know something, something is here.
32:23
Speaker 1: We should he's a friend of ours, even if he's
32:28
Speaker 1: this is a conspiracy theory. Something's clearly wrong, and they
32:31
Speaker 1: try to help him, and then of course the old
32:33
Speaker 1: Emperor Palpatine kills him. But he was he was sounding
32:37
Speaker 1: that alarm and if if he had gotten that message out,
32:40
Speaker 1: things could have gone very differently and probably much better.
32:44
Speaker 1: So that's the peril of not listening to.
32:49
Speaker 2: Right, this is the we live in this peril, you know,
32:53
Speaker 2: we do.
32:54
Speaker 1: We do. Unfortunately, Also, as we've touched on the dangers
32:59
Speaker 1: of being of voice of dissent, I think a lot
33:01
Speaker 1: of people are worried about that, and so that's why
33:03
Speaker 1: Cassandra is resonating how it feels to not be believed
33:09
Speaker 1: is a really miserable feeling, especially if you share something
33:14
Speaker 1: painful or maybe something you never shared so I think
33:17
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons. And having that feeling of
33:22
Speaker 1: knowing what's coming and not being able to do about it,
33:24
Speaker 1: like that helpless feeling that I can't stop this. That
33:30
Speaker 1: just I think all of us are feeling that right now,
33:34
Speaker 1: a lot of us, at least powerful people abusing power,
33:38
Speaker 1: so you know, Apollo doing what he did, especially when
33:42
Speaker 1: someone refuses to fall in line or give them with
33:44
Speaker 1: what they want or feel entitled to because they gave
33:49
Speaker 1: you a gift. AI and disinformation and misinformation I think now,
33:56
Speaker 1: I think we've we've got a lot of like I
33:58
Speaker 1: don't know what even is right right.
34:02
Speaker 2: There's so many videos I'm even saying that people like wait,
34:06
Speaker 2: this is it? Maybe? Is it? No?
34:11
Speaker 1: No?
34:12
Speaker 2: Yes? And there's it's bad. It's already it's been bad
34:15
Speaker 2: for a while, whether it's just misinformation that's being leaked
34:18
Speaker 2: as fact to this to like having videos of being
34:22
Speaker 2: like is that a real video? What is this cute
34:27
Speaker 2: dog in bear? Is this a thing?
34:31
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have I have an episode
34:36
Speaker 1: coming up where I had to I had to really
34:38
Speaker 1: do some digging like this, really, I just need to
34:41
Speaker 1: make sure that this is okay, okay, all right. Yeah. Also,
34:46
Speaker 1: I think a lot of this story is about fate,
34:52
Speaker 1: so she can't stop these things. And I think for
34:59
Speaker 1: for some people that idea is really frightening because that's
35:04
Speaker 1: that goes back to the whole free will we can
35:06
Speaker 1: change things versus the that's just fate, that's what it is.
35:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if writing this tale is one of
35:15
Speaker 2: those explainers, because it doesn't make sense why women are
35:20
Speaker 2: so distrusted, just like in such a way that this
35:24
Speaker 2: fairy tale is like, maybe this is why because nothing
35:26
Speaker 2: else makes sense. It's a curse because there's no reason.
35:31
Speaker 2: Kind of the same as the Adam and Eve tail.
35:33
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, oh, we have to say this
35:36
Speaker 2: is the reason why they're not trustworthy, or this is
35:38
Speaker 2: the reason it's their fault. And so this kind of
35:40
Speaker 2: aligns to explaining why we don't believe women, not just
35:44
Speaker 2: why we shouldn't, but why we don't because nothing else
35:46
Speaker 2: makes sense.
35:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would say that is a brutal punishment. Yeah,
35:54
Speaker 1: it is a huge like punishing a woman for knowing
35:58
Speaker 1: right what is coming, So that hats off. I mean,
36:05
Speaker 1: that's awful. I didn't get to read the entire article,
36:10
Speaker 1: but there's a piece about Virgil's depiction of Cassandra and
36:15
Speaker 1: how sexist it was, So there's definitely I mean, if
36:20
Speaker 1: it's coming from like ancient times, there's no part of
36:22
Speaker 1: me that it thinks it was probably a healthy depiction
36:28
Speaker 1: of women, right. But it is interesting how as time
36:33
Speaker 1: has moved on, modern interpretations are much more like I
36:39
Speaker 1: don't even know if you knew what you were writing, right, Yeah,
36:45
Speaker 1: and then the final points to end on because it
36:49
Speaker 1: kind of a bummer on some of these, but resistance,
36:52
Speaker 1: I mean, like I said, she she didn't give up
36:55
Speaker 1: even though no one believed her. She kept trying, and
36:58
Speaker 1: her story did stick around and has lasted and has
37:06
Speaker 1: resonated with so many people. And I'm sure you know
37:13
Speaker 1: that's kind of amazing, right because it was a story
37:16
Speaker 1: about a woman coming from that long ago very easily
37:22
Speaker 1: could have been lost, or she would have been the
37:24
Speaker 1: character that got kind of pushed to the side, right,
37:28
Speaker 1: But she really wasn't.
37:30
Speaker 2: Sad she is a metaphor, yeah.
37:35
Speaker 1: And I mean it's a terrible what happened in that
37:38
Speaker 1: story to her is off.
37:40
Speaker 2: I feel like they just always have to add this
37:43
Speaker 2: that one, like why why why? Yeah, it was really beaten,
37:51
Speaker 2: would have been bad enough, kidnapped pretty bad, but no,
37:56
Speaker 2: we have to add one more. I'm okay, everything's fine.
38:00
Speaker 1: Yep. Well, listeners, If you have any thoughts about this,
38:07
Speaker 1: I would definitely love to hear that yes, yes, any
38:12
Speaker 1: other mythological figures we should do, or if you have
38:16
Speaker 1: any examples of real, real world spandras that we should do,
38:20
Speaker 1: please let us know. You can email us at Hello
38:23
Speaker 1: at steffanever told You dot com. You can find us
38:26
Speaker 1: on Blue Sky at Moustil podcast, or on Instagram and
38:28
Speaker 1: TikTok at stuff I Never told You. We're also on
38:31
Speaker 1: YouTube and we have a book you can get where
38:32
Speaker 1: you get your books. Thanks as always to you, a
38:34
Speaker 1: super ducer Christina or Executi producer and a con trooper Joey.
38:37
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff Never
38:40
Speaker 1: Told You should I Heart Radio for more podcast or
38:41
Speaker 1: my heart Radio. You can check out the Heart Radio
38:43
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38:45
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