Latest / Future Christian / Pastoral Health, Leading Change, and Building Connection: Martha & Loren highlight season 15

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Pastoral Health, Leading Change, and Building Connection: Martha & Loren highlight season 15 · Future Christian

0:05
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:23
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now, here's your host, Loren Richmond Junior.
0:32
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond
0:35
Junior, and today I'm pleased to be joined by
0:38
my guest host, co host Martha Tatarnic. So
0:41
thank you so much for being here. Welcome.
0:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thanks, Loren. It's great to be here. All season
0:46
long, I listen to these conversations that you're having
0:49
on future Christian, and I just want to jump in
0:52
and, you know, continue the conversation. So
0:55
this is hopefully our listeners feel that way, too, and
0:58
this is our opportunity to do that. Keep the conversation
1:01
rolling.
1:02
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, we have a special episode,
1:05
an exciting episode planned here. We're going to try something
1:07
new, and I think it'll be a great for a
1:10
conversation for our listeners to kind of get a review of what
1:13
the season was. And then here's some
1:16
highlights. So we're going to play some clips from
1:18
episodes and then kind of just share about
1:21
our thoughts and, you know, especially
1:23
Martha's going to share. She was not the one primary in the
1:26
driver's seat for most of these. Share some thoughts and
1:29
responses and just kind of review and overview
1:32
here. And, uh, as I'm talking, my dog is like,
1:35
shoving her head in my lap. One,
1:39
uh, such is the life of recording at home. So there's kind
1:42
of three broad points here from my season.
1:45
And I think, really, this is. Tends to be,
1:48
uh, what a lot of my focused conversations
1:51
are. And I think, martha, you tend to have a lot here
1:54
of overlap here, too. But, uh, three broad points we'll be
1:57
talking about today is pastoral health,
1:59
individualization versus connection, and then
2:02
leading change. So we're going to start off
2:05
with an interview I did at,
2:08
um, the reminder renew conference at
2:11
my seminary, Phillips seminary in Tulsa, Oklahoma, back
2:14
in January. And this is with Reverend Kenzie
2:16
Tate. She's a licensed counselor and
2:19
has a new program called Restore Clergy, where she's
2:22
working especially with clergy, to help clergy do
2:25
better. So she's talking here just about, uh, some of
2:27
the stuff that clergy have to deal with and how it can
2:30
affect, uh, their
2:32
ministry. So here we go. Let
2:35
me, let, uh, me get it going.
2:38
>> Kinsie Tate: And especially if you're in a place of burnout, it's like that's what you're
2:41
living in. And so you can feel
2:43
hypocritical you can feel like, how do
2:46
I talk about a loving God when it's like, what am
2:49
this? This sucks.
2:50
>> Loren: Yeah.
2:51
>> Kinsie Tate: Like, I don't. I mean, this person in the pew
2:53
reminds me of my dad, who used to yell at me, and I
2:56
am all kinds of triggered, and I have no interest in being
2:59
compassionate to them. Like, that's. That is
3:01
fundamentally a human thing response.
3:04
Um, and I think what's hard for clergy is
3:07
we are expected to transcend that and to be able
3:10
to
3:13
speak of God's loving kindness. And it's like, I'm not
3:15
feeling it at all, and it's really hard to speak
3:18
about it.
3:20
>> Loren: So I especially want to hear from you,
3:23
Martha, on this, because I know you've been in a position where
3:26
you've worked with a lot of younger leaders, and
3:29
you've. You've been in positions because you
3:32
didn't officially become, like, a middle judgment leader, but you were up
3:35
for such a role. Right.
3:37
So I just want to hear your thoughts on how,
3:40
like, clergy, their own stuff, can
3:43
often be a, uh, challenge in ministry.
3:47
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I listened to this clip, and I just
3:50
think I can't
3:52
imagine that the, uh,
3:55
relatability isn't felt, like, right
3:57
across the north american church, like, no
4:00
matter what kind of congregation you're
4:03
serving in, because it's such a
4:06
theme in the conversations that we have on
4:09
future Christian. It's such a theme across
4:12
the conversations that I
4:15
have with colleagues. Um, it
4:18
is so easy to
4:21
get into this job because you
4:24
care about healing,
4:28
but, like, we
4:31
do it as wounded healers, right? Like,
4:33
we do it as people who
4:36
bring our own needs and
4:39
baggage. And, um,
4:41
we're negotiating a lot of
4:44
really challenging,
4:48
um, aspects of the landscape that are not
4:51
unrelated to the other categories that
4:54
we shape our conversations into around
4:56
navigating change, um,
5:00
you know, how we cope
5:02
in an increasingly secular world.
5:05
Um, so I think it's so
5:08
easy for, uh, if we
5:11
don't kind of have those support systems in
5:14
place and those honest conversations taking
5:16
place, then it is so
5:19
easy to just have all of
5:22
our baggage drive the bus, you know?
5:25
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, I like the way you said that. I
5:28
mean, I don't like it, but I like it. That's a good way of saying it. Let
5:31
her drag our baggage drive the bus.
5:33
What's the guy like? Yeah, go ahead.
5:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: We're gonna have the baggage, right? We just don't want it to be
5:38
in charge. Right.
5:44
>> Loren: Oh, man. Yeah. What? So, like, a word?
5:47
What is a word of advice? Maybe that's been helpful
5:50
for you. Or you've given pastors when
5:53
thinking about your own stuff.
5:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I think the thing that I keep coming
5:58
back to, and I think is very much
6:01
my motivation for being part of this
6:03
podcast, is that I think we just
6:06
have to open up the conversation and
6:09
stop acting as if we have to
6:11
figure this out alone. Yeah, I've
6:14
done a few, like, speaking engagements lately, and I
6:17
have said to groups of clergy, like,
6:20
the problem with clergy burnout is not going to be solved
6:23
by getting a hobby and taking your day off.
6:26
Like, we need to have a
6:29
broader sense of how, like,
6:32
we're working collectively
6:35
to, you know, address
6:38
systemic change, um,
6:41
and to minimize the degree to which people feel
6:44
like it's all on their shoulders.
6:47
So, like, I
6:50
think the message of this podcast is, like, it's not all
6:53
on your shoulders. Like, we have a lot of collective wisdom,
6:56
and we need to be continuing
6:59
to bring that to the fore and
7:02
draw from that.
7:02
>> Loren: Well, yeah. Yeah, that's good. So,
7:05
again, that's episode. I meant to get back and
7:08
pull the episode numbers. This is early on in season 15. I
7:11
can't remember this specific episode, but Kinsey
7:14
Tate. Look for that past episode. Next
7:17
one I'm going to play here is just a couple episodes ago with
7:19
Jonathan Foster. Jonathan, uh, Foster is a
7:22
former Nazarene pastor who's
7:25
actually, as I understand it, kicked out
7:28
of the denomination, uh, for his
7:31
inclusive views on LGBTQ folks.
7:34
So the interesting one of the things we talked about
7:37
here amongst some new movements
7:40
he's helping lead for clergy is
7:42
just this dynamic of what happens
7:45
is clergy can so often be the
7:48
primary caregiver in a community, and
7:51
especially with our employment being kind of that community that
7:54
we can often find ourselves without a home
7:56
or a place for receiving care ourselves.
7:59
Let's, uh, listen to this club here.
8:02
>> Ted Smith: We're caregivers. And then
8:05
to be pushed out, you know,
8:08
kicked out in my case, officially and lots of other places
8:11
unofficially, it is a. It's a mind
8:13
trip. We're also a lot.
8:16
Lots of us are. Kind of like, when you're clergy,
8:19
you play, like, a meaning making role in
8:22
your community. So when bad things happen, you
8:25
help people make meaning.
8:26
>> Loren: Right?
8:26
>> Ted Smith: But what's crazy is when bad
8:29
things happen, like, if it's bad enough, like, uh, for
8:32
example, in my situation, my entire meaning making
8:35
system, you know, just kind of fell
8:38
apart right now, I was trying to create meaning in the
8:40
middle of chaos, right? And the poor people who had
8:43
to come to my church, I mean, I say poor people,
8:46
some of them were really, really great. And uh,
8:49
learned a lot. Um, that's a whole interesting
8:52
dynamic, too. And I think a lot of meaning making
8:55
clergy types, counselor chaplain types are in
8:58
that position, their lives personally.
9:02
>> Loren: So, for added context here, I think. I
9:05
can't speak for certain here, but I know this to be true.
9:08
He lost his daughter tragically ten years ago,
9:11
so I think that's part of what he's speaking about. But again,
9:14
when you're the primary caregiver, to use that
9:17
language, it can be real tough. And,
9:20
Martha, um, I don't know about you, uh, how have you,
9:24
when you're leading in ministry,
9:27
what has been, like, your experience
9:30
when your family, personally, whatever, is
9:33
experiencing great tragedy? Like, I've
9:36
had times where I felt like I've been supported very well by a
9:38
congregation, other times not.
9:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I've been now in
9:45
my congregation for ten years, and,
9:49
um, our family has
9:52
had a lot of ups and downs in those ten years, and I
9:55
give thanks to God that the church
9:57
has really been the church for me
10:00
in the best possible ways. I
10:03
realize that's not everybody's story,
10:06
um, but. But it is
10:09
mine. And I, you know, I count that
10:12
as one of the tremendous blessings
10:15
of my ministry. I mean, it also
10:17
helps that I'm in a congregation
10:20
with more than one clergy person, so
10:23
there's is more of a sharing
10:26
of the load. Um, I think that
10:29
it can sometimes be a lot harder for
10:32
clergy who are in
10:34
congregations where,
10:37
um, you know, they feel for one
10:40
reason or another that it does all rest on
10:42
them. Um, I found
10:45
this whole episode to be
10:47
extremely compelling and
10:50
heartbreaking, um, because,
10:53
again, like, relatability that I do
10:56
have lots of friends and colleagues who
10:59
feel sort of discarded
11:02
by the church, by the institutional
11:04
church. And what a tremendous, uh,
11:08
thing he's doing in creating this
11:11
open table network where there's
11:14
kind of this safety net for.
11:18
For m. Making sure that
11:21
there is church, for people who are leading the
11:24
church and who sometimes,
11:26
um, have the war
11:29
wounds, uh, to go along
11:32
with navigating change
11:34
and managing people's anxiety
11:38
and being the ones to make meaning
11:40
when everything falls apart.
11:43
>> Loren: Let me ask you this, too, and I don't
11:46
know about the judicatory structure
11:48
of Anglicanism or
11:51
Episcopalianism in the states, for
11:53
instance, but, like, I know in my denomination, the
11:56
christian church decides Christ. And I think
11:59
there's, like, I'm thinking of, like, the UCC.
12:03
Other mainline denominations have similar
12:06
judicatory structures. Like, but especially in
12:09
my context, where it's like there is a, uh,
12:12
middle judiciary leader, and sometimes,
12:14
depending on the region, there's more or less.
12:17
But the person who a pastor might look
12:20
to be like their primary support is
12:23
also in some ways, their boss.
12:26
And again, depending on,
12:29
um, regional
12:32
autonomy and what have you, structure that
12:35
can be more or less official. But
12:38
how. How have you seen that navigated in the challenges
12:41
of such.
12:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I. I mean, all of those things
12:46
kind of get looped into the mix,
12:49
right? Because, uh, in
12:52
the anglican church,
12:54
uh, ah, like, my boss is my
12:57
bishop, um, but
12:59
also the bishop is supposed to be the pastor to the
13:02
pastor. So there is that inherent
13:05
conflict. And,
13:07
um, you know, there are kind
13:10
of a variety of ways in which the
13:13
church tries to navigate that. But,
13:16
um,
13:19
again, there's lots of people who,
13:22
um, sort of end up in
13:25
the crossfires of that
13:27
conflict. I'm not specifically referring
13:30
to my diocese. I'm just saying, like,
13:33
that can be a thing, right. Uh, and
13:36
I'm sure you see it in your denomination as
13:39
well, that you can't
13:42
necessarily say that
13:45
you're in need or you're in trouble,
13:48
uh, to your boss,
13:51
or maybe you feel you can't.
13:53
>> Loren: Right? Yeah, uh, I'd have a
13:56
whole lot to say there, but thankfully, we don't have the time.
14:01
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Maybe, uh, an episode for another
14:04
day.
14:04
>> Loren: Yeah, maybe an episode for another day. So one of
14:07
the other trends or themes of that episode
14:10
was of Jonathan Foster was, again, like this.
14:13
This new kind of credentialing,
14:16
um, ministry, I don't know what
14:18
organization, institution for clergy. So I
14:21
think it really. And one of the things I asked him about was this kind of,
14:24
like, this move societally, we are
14:27
towards, like, affinity groups, um, people
14:30
who really agree with us and separating from those who
14:33
don't. And that gets into another,
14:35
broader theme from this season, which is, I'm titling
14:38
individualization versus connection. And
14:41
so I want to play. I have a couple clips here from Ted
14:44
Smith. Um, so I want to play
14:47
this first one. I think this one is kind of shorter, but let's, uh,
14:50
listen in here.
14:53
>> Ted Smith: This individualization that we have, it carves people out
14:56
of communities. It leaves them on their own
14:59
without any kind of story to orient their lives, and
15:02
then it charges them with building, all on their own,
15:05
an authentic self. Well, I wonder
15:08
why anxiety is so widespread. Like, that's
15:11
just. It's a terrible kind of condition
15:13
that a lot of people are in right now. Right?
15:16
And I think if what theological
15:19
education is designed to do is to
15:22
say, hey, you need. We're going to give you professional credentials to
15:25
go lead these crumbling voluntary associations. Well, people
15:28
aren't interested in that, like, just like what you're saying.
15:31
>> Loren: Right.
15:31
>> Ted Smith: But what they. But if theological education
15:34
says, hey, I
15:37
see this enormous challenge
15:40
that the world has given you, that you have to put a life
15:43
before God together and you have to figure out
15:46
all you know what and there's actually learning
15:49
through the centuries that can help you do that. Um,
15:52
well, that's a different purpose for theological education.
15:56
>> Loren: So obviously, um, a
15:59
lot in that episode. I do recommend that
16:02
episode. Recommend his book, too.
16:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: I really recommend that episode. It was excellent.
16:06
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm looking at episode 172 for
16:10
context here. Um,
16:12
but one of the things he references, I'd said
16:15
prior to that clip, this thing
16:18
that I think a lot of younger clergy are
16:21
just, we're not willing to hold up an institution and basically
16:24
be crushed by the institution, but
16:27
then be like that. Individualization, I think there is this kind
16:29
of societal push to just be
16:32
this unique individual self, and that
16:35
gets exhausting. Um,
16:38
so talk about, I mean,
16:41
this dynamic, especially for churches
16:44
and seminaries, but in our context,
16:47
we primarily deal with churches, is like,
16:50
how does a church, like, support the individual but also, like,
16:53
not perpetuate this message? Like, you need, like, your
16:56
whole identity and purpose needs to be in, like, forming
16:59
your unique self identity. Like, you can. You
17:02
can be okay. Like, being part of
17:05
the body of Christ. Uh, I don't know if that makes sense, but.
17:08
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, it totally doesn't. You know, I don't
17:11
know who this is ascribed to, but it really
17:14
comes back to, uh, the,
17:17
like, are we as a church giving good
17:19
advice or are we giving good news?
17:22
Because I think it's, like, so easy
17:25
to slip into,
17:27
um, having people show up and
17:30
be like, okay, well, you've got to
17:33
be on board with social justice and you've got to give and you've got
17:36
to serve and you've got to do this and you've got to do that. And,
17:39
like, if we don't, then the world's going to fall apart. And,
17:41
like, all of those things might be
17:44
true and might be, like,
17:47
important components to discipleship,
17:50
but
17:53
we're there primarily to proclaim
17:56
the nearness of the
17:59
kingdom of God. Like, we're there to proclaim
18:01
like, it's already happening. Like, God is
18:04
right here and, like,
18:06
transforming the world and recreating the world in
18:09
our midst. And, like, um.
18:12
And God's at work in you, too. And like,
18:15
that's, like,
18:18
that's the.
18:22
The message that I
18:25
think our world is desperate to hear. Like, you're right.
18:28
Maybe our world is not desperate to hold up crumbling
18:30
institutions, but our world is
18:33
desperate to come back
18:36
to the relationship for which they're
18:39
created.
18:41
>> Loren: I'll, uh, give a shout out here to
18:43
my, uh, fellow doc, pastor, and
18:46
podcaster, and technically a producer here.
18:49
Dennis Sanders has an episode on his
18:52
podcast, church in Maine, with an interview with Anthony Robinson,
18:55
the UCC pastor. And I can't remember
18:58
if they reference it in this podcast
19:01
or in one of the blogs that
19:05
Dennis shared in the show. Notes from that spot of the
19:07
conversation. But Anthony Robinson says
19:10
something about, like,
19:14
many times folks are coming to church with, like, a 30
19:16
pound bag and they're
19:20
being, like, handed another 30 pound bag and be
19:22
like, hey, go out and, like, live the good news.
19:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
19:27
>> Loren: You know, like, they're coming way down with, like, 30 pounds, and then,
19:30
like, we have them another 30 pound bag
19:33
of m. You know, things that are true. Like,
19:36
obviously, like, there are a lot of problems in this world that
19:39
I think we need to address and
19:41
talk about, whether it be racism or.
19:44
Or, um, LGBT
19:47
or the violence in the Middle
19:50
east. Like, these are all important issues, but, like, how do we frame
19:53
that in a way where people are
19:55
experiencing life and good news?
19:58
Right?
20:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Ah. Like, grace and
20:02
transformation and hope and,
20:05
like. And a lifting of burdens.
20:07
Like, this is a place where you can come and,
20:11
like, we can gather in prayer for
20:14
the troubled places, and
20:16
collectively, we can discern our
20:19
response. And, um.
20:23
Yeah, like, we're not just. We're not just
20:26
lonely people trying to
20:28
navigate a really rough
20:31
world.
20:32
>> Loren: Yeah. Let me play one more clip here, just from Ted
20:35
Smith. This is a short one.
20:36
Um, it kind of fits on
20:39
this trend of, again, individualization. This is
20:42
him m talking about, this movement
20:45
towards expressive or affinity group, so to
20:48
speak, in denominational life.
20:53
>> Ted Smith: Um, but the challenge now is with these new, more expressive
20:56
denominations, it's harder
20:58
for them to want the other ones to continue to exist.
21:03
They would like for them just to disappear and to find any kind
21:06
of common cause, uh, starts to feel
21:08
really, really problematic.
21:10
>> Loren: So, short clip there, obviously. But
21:13
I can't remember if that's what we're talking about. What we're talking about
21:16
exactly. But certainly what comes to mind hearing that is
21:19
this recent GMC,
21:21
UMC, uh, division that's happened,
21:24
you know, globally, the United Methodist Church
21:27
and the global Methodist church. And again, I'll give
21:30
a shout to my. To Dennis Sanders here.
21:33
He talks about in
21:36
the past, there was this
21:38
willingness to kind of say, like, if, for instance,
21:41
he exemplifies, like, a church that might have gone
21:44
through, uh, a tense vote about
21:47
whether to become, in our context, open, affirming,
21:50
inclusive of lgbt persons. And often
21:52
the language was like, we've got some healing to do after that
21:55
vote would happen. Now, it seems like. And I think this is what
21:58
Ted is alluding to, is like, there's this, like,
22:01
hey, you know, you're the people who voted against us.
22:04
We're leaving you behind, and we hope you
22:07
fail. And I don't want to speak too strongly here, but
22:10
it does seem like there is this idea that,
22:12
like,
22:15
from the. And again, I want to speak
22:18
firmly that I fully support. And I'm
22:21
grateful that folks who are LGBTQ, uh,
22:24
identifying, like, they get to live into their full
22:27
giftings that God has given them. But,
22:30
uh, also, I'm with
22:32
Ted here, assuming I'm interpreting him correctly,
22:36
what do we do with this? Like, this splintering, where it's just
22:39
almost like we want the other side to fail, if that
22:42
makes sense.
22:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, we've certainly
22:47
seen that splintering in
22:50
any number of our mainline
22:52
denominations, uh, over the
22:54
past 2030
22:57
years.
22:58
Um,
23:03
I don't know what the answer is,
23:05
because it feels like
23:10
in order to
23:13
embrace the church
23:16
that I believe God is calling us to
23:19
be, like, we do have to
23:22
take, uh, uh, stance on these things, and
23:25
it's hard to see in
23:28
how we do that without
23:31
there being a vote that ends
23:33
up with. Now, I know in our indigenous
23:36
circles or indigenous anglican
23:39
circles, there's a much different
23:41
way of coming to decision making.
23:44
Um, I think
23:47
that there's something to pay attention to there in
23:50
terms of, like,
23:54
maybe bringing it to a vote on the floor of
23:56
synod is
23:59
not the way forward.
24:02
Um, but, yeah,
24:05
I don't. Like. What do you think? What do you think
24:08
we do other than
24:11
what the alternative is not to take a
24:14
stand? Right.
24:15
>> Loren: I think this is where I'm going to lean on Dennis. Uh,
24:18
what I've read from Dennis Sanders here and what I've heard from him, m. Is just
24:21
this. I think it has to be like,
24:24
because I would agree with you, I think there are times where
24:27
you have to say, hey, this is what I believe.
24:30
Um, so
24:33
I think that to use the family systems term,
24:36
self differentiation is important. But
24:39
again, this is where I want to lean into family systems
24:42
theory. There has to be a balance of, uh,
24:45
emotional connection and self
24:47
differentiation.
24:49
I've had Jack Chitama in the past, and he says something like, I think,
24:52
like, you know, going fully
24:55
after self differentiation is kind of like a narcissistic
24:58
behavior, and then obviously, like, you know, just completely
25:01
caving in to, you know,
25:04
emotional connection at all times, you know, that's not a
25:07
healthy, uh, object either. So
25:10
to go back to what Dennis Sinner says is like
25:13
seeking healing, um, and
25:15
that's far easier said than done. So I want to acknowledge
25:18
that. Um, but I just wonder, like,
25:22
how different things would be and maybe they
25:25
wouldn't be. Um,
25:28
but is it possible to go into
25:31
such divisive trends
25:34
with an attitude toward healing or seeking
25:37
healing and, uh, striving to
25:40
maintain? This is something that Jonathan and
25:43
I talked about in that episode with Jonathan and Foster this
25:46
tension between two things of self
25:48
differentiation and emotional connection,
25:51
trying to live in that tension, that balance.
25:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I mean,
25:59
at the risk of sounding trite,
26:04
I would hope that ultimately
26:07
being able to trust in the reconciling power of
26:09
God does allow us to have
26:12
really challenging discussions that
26:15
feel like,
26:17
are wounding.
26:20
Um, but
26:24
that there
26:27
you look at a lot of the things that christians have fought
26:30
about over the
26:33
centuries, and, um,
26:36
they, they do come to feel like,
26:39
like small potatoes.
26:43
There is a healing, uh, that does
26:46
take place over the course of time that I have
26:48
to believe God's hand is in.
26:51
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. I like that, that's hopeful. I appreciate
26:53
that you bringing that perspective. Let's move on
26:56
here. Since we're still
26:59
great clips here, I got to share. Um, so I want to set,
27:02
uh, early on in January. Again, this was actually recorded
27:05
prior to, but, uh, um, doctor Scott Thomas
27:08
spoke at the remind and renew conference at Phillips
27:11
Seminary. So I kind of spoke to him about his
27:13
work and he shared about
27:16
just kind of the challenges. This is more,
27:19
practically speaking, individualism versus connection,
27:22
how to connect with virtual audiences and bring them into the
27:25
wider life of the church.
27:26
>> Ted Smith: Here,
27:29
they're willing to allow for talking, head
27:31
spectators participation,
27:35
but that's not a robust congregational
27:38
life. Uh, so I
27:40
think where congregations, and this includes the
27:43
megachurches as well,
27:46
our challenge now is how
27:49
do we deliver all those other aspects
27:52
of congregational life to a virtual
27:55
audience so that it's a robust
27:57
expression of Christianity and community
28:01
and not just, you know, I'm
28:03
watching televangelists, you
28:06
know, who are less good
28:08
televangelists.
28:09
>> Loren: Right. So this is, uh, episode
28:11
160, I think. And this really connects with
28:14
your conversation with Michael Graham, which was
28:17
158, I believe, because I remember you had
28:20
a very similar conversation with Michael Graham, where he
28:23
said, like, hey, church should be getting away from
28:26
live streaming because it detracts from the
28:29
gathered community in person.
28:32
Obviously, there's going to be a lot of churches are going to choose to
28:35
stick with live streaming. Um, but
28:38
what do you think about that dynamic? Because, again, there is this kind of,
28:41
like, there's a safe kind of
28:45
aloof. That's not the right word, aloofness. But there's
28:47
this ability, uh, to not
28:50
fully engage or connect, I guess, when you're watching.
28:53
I'd love to do this, like, in person with
28:56
you, Martha. And I found that I've
28:59
been able to do more and more interviews in person and how much
29:02
more I appreciate doing those
29:04
interviews in person where I can. So you're living
29:07
this out, like, right now, obviously, as, uh, a local
29:10
parish pastor, and you're talking to other pastors about
29:13
this. What do you think about this dynamic of trying to get people
29:16
moved into physical community?
29:20
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I tell you, I think about it a lot, because,
29:23
like, I am very compelled
29:26
by. By what these people are
29:29
saying. Um, you know, Ryan Panzer has a
29:32
lot to say about the holy and the hybrid.
29:35
Like, and, um. I know we're
29:38
gonna talk about Jake, him,
29:41
his name. Um, like,
29:44
yeah. There is an
29:46
incarnational, embodied aspect
29:49
to our faith that can't be short
29:52
changed. And at the same time, like,
29:55
live streaming, online ministry
29:58
is so baked into the life of our
30:00
church anyway, um, and has been
30:03
from way before the pandemic. So, like,
30:08
I just can't, um. I can't
30:10
imagine, like,
30:14
ejecting it from the life of our community because it,
30:17
uh, is experienced as a lifeline for so many
30:19
people who can't come to church or who are
30:22
isolated for one reason or another. Is it
30:25
also a way in which people kind of
30:28
bop around in church shop rather than become part
30:31
of the community? It is.
30:33
Um, so. But at the same
30:36
time, I'm always surprised by
30:39
the. When I connect
30:42
with people who only connect online,
30:45
I'm surprised by their experience of it
30:48
and then how that kind of feeds their
30:51
embodied living. So
30:54
I. I guess I
30:57
ultimately trust in
31:00
the power of the Holy Spirit to do something
31:03
with our circumstances that are sometimes
31:06
less than ideal. And I think that we have to be
31:09
taking seriously that continual
31:12
calling to the life of community,
31:15
um, rather than
31:17
consumerism. Like, I think we have to be clear about that. But
31:20
for me and our community,
31:23
anyway, it is here to stay.
31:26
>> Loren: Well, let's jump right into that J. Kim
31:28
club you referenced. You use the word consumerism.
31:31
He talks about the dangers of seeing church as a product. So let's
31:34
listen to that real quick.
31:37
>> Jay Kim: What we are unintentionally doing
31:40
is teaching people and telling
31:43
people, hey, you know what the church is. The church
31:45
is just a christian product to be
31:48
consumed. It's just good christian
31:51
content to be consumed. And listen, I am not
31:54
against good christian content. This podcast is
31:57
good christian content.
31:59
>> Loren: I paid you to say that there.
32:01
>> Jay Kim: So I'm not against that. But you
32:04
and I both would agree this podcast is not the
32:06
church. This podcast is not. Now, you and
32:09
I, as brothers in the family of God,
32:12
we make up a part of the church, global,
32:15
you know, universal. But the
32:18
podcast itself is not the church.
32:20
>> Loren: So some almost hot takes there, right? And that's episode
32:23
162 there. But
32:26
yes, you were just talking about
32:28
consumerism, and
32:31
Jay Kim talks, right, about
32:34
this tendency, and I think we do it as pastors, is to try to
32:37
create a good product.
32:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that's exactly what I wanted to say,
32:42
is, like, this leads me right back to
32:45
where we started in this podcast around clergy
32:48
health.
32:49
>> Loren: Good point.
32:49
>> Martha Tatarnic: I think that, uh, we are
32:51
absolutely, like,
32:54
we are formed as pastors to
32:57
be content creators. We're formed as pastors to
33:00
be entrepreneurs in some way, to
33:03
kind of be competitors
33:06
for increasingly scarce resources, which are the
33:09
people who are interested in organized religion. Right?
33:12
Like, and
33:16
so, like, I, uh, think what Jay
33:18
Kim is saying absolutely speaks
33:21
to the heart of, like,
33:24
what we need to keep coming back to
33:26
as christians in today's
33:29
society. We need to resist,
33:33
um, that message that we're
33:36
entrepreneurs competing for scarce
33:38
resources. We need to resist the idea
33:41
that we're content, uh, creators
33:44
producing a great christian product,
33:46
um, because
33:50
the temptations are
33:52
everywhere to buy into that
33:55
idea. And, like, the rewards for
33:58
being a successful Christmas tree
34:00
product feel pretty interesting.
34:02
>> Loren: Uh, yeah, they do.
34:06
Well, I'm thinking back to something you said just
34:09
moments ago about, you know, trusting God to bring
34:12
reconciliation similarly. Right. So much of this
34:15
work, and I'll give a shout out
34:18
here to my favorite Andrew root, who writes a
34:21
lot about this, too, is just trusting
34:24
God. Um, so thanks for. Thank
34:26
you just for mentioning that again. It's so
34:29
easy to get into this. Like, what do I have to do to fix it?
34:32
Right?
34:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. What do I have to do? Yeah.
34:37
Honestly, like, almost every clip that we've listened to so
34:40
far today makes me think of something Andrew Root has said.
34:44
Uh, because, like, it's.
34:47
I think about that all the time. Like, we're focused on the wrong
34:50
problem. We're focused on trying to get people to come
34:53
to church, and we should be focused on how we
34:56
communicate the living God to a world that
34:58
has been taught to be individual, secular
35:01
people.
35:02
>> Loren: I have, for listeners, I think
35:05
that's back in season 14, my last episode with Andrew Ruby, you can
35:08
check that out. Um, let's shift here, because you use the
35:11
word fix, and I'm thinking about. So much
35:14
of this involves leading change. So much of
35:17
this work involves leading change in our churches. And
35:20
this was from. Oh, I forgot to look it up.
35:22
Um, Doug Poe.
35:25
It's right before the Ted Smith, uh,
35:27
episode. So this is a conversation with Doug Poe, who co
35:30
wrote sustaining while disrupting, which is, again, a
35:33
book I highly recommend. Let's see if I can find it here.
35:36
But he talks about the dangers of a quick fix. And let's
35:39
listen in here.
35:42
>> Doug Powe: These are not quick fixes.
35:45
And that's the piece that I'm trying to get to.
35:48
You're not going to wake up tomorrow and
35:50
say, um, um, this
35:53
is. Now I'm putting aside. I'm going to do this. I mean, these
35:56
things take place over a
35:59
long period of time where people say,
36:02
you know what? I do see
36:05
this differently and realize
36:07
that this probably was not as
36:10
critical as we thought it was before.
36:13
Um, so going
36:16
to your question, like I said, I don't
36:19
think we should undermine anyone's convictions, but I do
36:22
think that over time, many of these
36:25
things do change for individuals. I
36:28
mean, you have individuals today who.
36:31
>> Loren: I cut that off there a little short. But the context of the
36:34
conversation is, he's talking about the section in their book,
36:38
which, uh, is about, um, change. And he
36:40
uses the example of Peter and
36:43
Cornelius and Peter literally setting
36:45
aside some convictions, you know, again, I don't
36:48
eat whatever. I don't remember. Right.
36:51
But, you know, I don't eat,
36:53
um, certain things.
36:57
Uh, but I think the thing we.
37:00
And maybe I should say me, because I know I'm terrible at this,
37:04
is this idea. Like,
37:07
I know there needs to be change
37:10
and that sometimes people need to set things aside,
37:12
but I'm like, I want to happen right away
37:16
and expecting that
37:19
quick fix. Um, and I know part of that's
37:22
cultural. In our current cultural
37:24
context, I know part of that is just frankly, like,
37:28
realistically, like, right when we see, like, the
37:30
financials going down and decline,
37:33
declining attendance, we think, like, something needs to happen immediately.
37:36
But what do you think? What if. What have
37:38
been your experience?
37:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I think that it's hard to be a
37:44
couple of decades into ministry
37:47
and believe in quick fixes
37:49
anymore. Like, I think.
37:52
>> Loren: Is that like a young clergy from.
37:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, like, I.
37:59
I think it's just like,
38:02
uh, an institution wanting to survive
38:05
problem. Because, like, we do,
38:08
we do keep getting, like, the magic
38:10
bullet answers. Like, they keep
38:13
being floated across our
38:16
desks, right? Like, we gather for,
38:20
like, professional development,
38:23
and it's like, okay, here's the,
38:26
here's the way to do it. Like, you just need
38:29
x, y, and z, and it's all going to be all right. You
38:32
just need, like, this package. You
38:35
just need this language. You just need this kind of worship. You
38:37
just need, um. And
38:43
none of it really seems to be
38:45
particularly moving the dial in
38:48
if we're looking at the dial being
38:51
reversing.
38:52
>> Loren: Um.
38:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: Decline of religion, like, of
38:57
how many people want to be part of institutional
38:59
religion. Um, so
39:02
I think the antidote to
39:05
quick fixes is
39:08
to be really clear
39:11
about discernment
39:14
and, like, where
39:17
God is leading us in this time for
39:20
these people.
39:22
>> Loren: Boy, I had to write that down, that an institution
39:24
wanted to survive problem, because that's good.
39:27
That's good. And, um, boy, is it. Is that
39:30
truth. Holy smokes.
39:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: It's true. It's true. And I get
39:34
it. I love this
39:37
church. We both do, right? That's why we're doing
39:40
this. Like, we. We love the church.
39:42
Yeah, yeah.
39:44
>> Loren: Let's play here. Um, this
39:47
comes from Tessa Pinkstaff, who was a co author
39:50
on the book. Or is it
39:52
leading? Um, I'm trying to find the book title. I
39:55
can't find it.
39:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: It's just out this week.
39:58
>> Loren: It's just before, uh, will be the Brian McLaren
40:01
episode. So. And then. So it's two episodes back from this.
40:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: How to lead faithful innovation.
40:06
>> Loren: Yeah, or the book is leading faithful innovation. Thank you. That
40:09
reminds.
40:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
40:10
>> Loren: Um, but she talks about,
40:13
I asked her the question, like, how do you. There are gonna be times where
40:16
folks are just not gonna play ball, to use the
40:19
sports metaphor. And how do you deal with
40:22
folks who are just. Just convinced that
40:25
their job is to not move, to not
40:28
play along, to just be, uh, a stick in the mud? So
40:31
let me play that conversation. Uh.
40:35
>> Tessa Pinkstaff: Yeah, we allude to this a little bit
40:38
in the book, and it was part of the process that we had when we
40:41
were working with the congregations. But some of what we
40:44
proposed was finding the core leaders
40:47
that are in your congregation who are ready for this
40:50
kind of work. We had guiding teams
40:52
that. That the congregations assembled. And that was,
40:56
it was sort of a ripple effect. It starts with the core group that's
40:59
ready. And then as that work is
41:01
flourishing, as the word gets out, as people start talking about
41:04
this sort of has a grassroots ripple where other people
41:07
see, oh, there's something happening here. The movement of the
41:10
spirit is going on here. People are excited. Change is taking
41:13
place, and it's in some ways. That's the basics of
41:16
discipleship. People see that something interesting is happening in
41:19
this pocket of the church, and others want to get involved, and it
41:22
just grows from there. There will be people. I want
41:25
to acknowledge that, and we acknowledge this in the book. There will be people
41:27
for whom this journey is too difficult. And. And
41:30
there's sort of a blessing of, we see you. We
41:33
know that this isn't what you need. We're going to keep moving.
41:36
We still care about you. It's an important thing to do, but it
41:39
is. You have to acknowledge that not everyone's going
41:42
to be able to do this, and God will take care of the people that
41:45
we have to sort of leave by the wayside as we keep
41:48
moving forward.
41:49
>> Loren: So that seems pretty
41:52
strong. Right. And I don't think
41:55
she means that negatively, leaving by the wayside.
41:57
But what has been your experience? What have
42:00
you. What have you advised pastors when
42:03
clearly there's. Sometimes there's people in a congregation
42:06
who just are not willing to grow and change and
42:09
respond to the spirit's promptings?
42:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. I think that there were kind of two key
42:16
things for me when I first came to the church
42:19
I'm currently serving, and I was
42:22
a 35 year old woman. I was
42:25
the first female rector, like, the
42:27
first lead priest that they had had that was a
42:30
woman, and everybody felt like
42:33
there's too much changing all at once. There was a lot of
42:36
pushback, and there were kind of two things that happened that
42:39
were extremely helpful. The one was, um, um,
42:42
you know, somebody just saying basically what Tessa said,
42:45
like, menace. Like, put most of your
42:48
energy toward the people who.
42:51
Who want to get on board with this. And lo and behold, there
42:54
are lots of people who want to get on board with this, and
42:56
so really, like, nurture their faith and,
42:59
like, build them up. And it's so
43:02
easy, you know, as a teacher, to
43:05
put all of your energy into
43:08
managing the kids who are a problem, and. And the kids
43:10
who are, like, there to learn get nothing,
43:14
right. So, like, so direct
43:16
directing of energy. I totally get what Tess is
43:19
saying. But then the other piece
43:22
I was going to visit, this elderly woman in the
43:25
congregation, and her son, God
43:28
bless him, reached out to me before I went and said,
43:31
look, before you go to see my mom, I'm just going to give you a
43:34
piece of advice. Like, she doesn't like
43:37
you. Like, she. She
43:40
thinks that women shouldn't be priests, and, like, she thinks that
43:43
you're changing too many things, he said, like, you're gonna
43:46
be tempted to try to talk her out of how she
43:48
feels, but just listen to her. Like,
43:51
don't try to. Don't try to convince her otherwise. Like,
43:54
just say, yeah, I really hear you, and, like,
43:57
like, validate. Right? Um, and
43:59
therapy language. Validate. I ended up
44:02
having, like, the best relationship with this woman,
44:05
and if he hadn't have emailed me, I would have gone
44:08
and try to, like. Because in my mind, it's just
44:11
like, clear in my mind what we need to do and why this
44:14
is, like, the right way forward. And if she can
44:17
see things as clearly as I see them, of course she's going to
44:20
get on board. Well, she wasn't going to get on board because
44:23
I'm convincing, but she actually did get
44:26
on board because I listened to her.
44:28
>> Loren: Well, there's a lesson there.
44:30
>> Martha Tatarnic: It was huge. It was really huge.
44:33
Yeah.
44:33
>> Loren: I'm thinking again about, um, I'm trying to
44:36
write this down. She got on board because you
44:39
listened. Um, I'm
44:42
thinking again about my guy, Jack Tatama, who I love to listen
44:45
to, talks about family systems theory. He tells a story about
44:48
when he was at a church. Uh,
44:51
he brought a change to their Christmas Eve service,
44:54
and he kind of put it out there.
44:57
We're going to do something different for Christmas Eve this year.
45:00
People threw a fit, one woman in particular, through a
45:02
fit. So he went over there, rather than
45:05
trying to defend what he was going to do, he just listened to her. And
45:08
it turned out her daughter, I think it was, had
45:11
tragically passed away. So
45:14
it wasn't so much about the Christmas Eve service
45:17
and the structure of that service.
45:20
It was. She had so much emotional
45:23
baggage, so much emotional pain
45:25
around that time of year, uh, that another
45:28
change just felt like too much. And her being listened
45:31
to really change things.
45:34
So thank you for sharing that.
45:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, thank you. I think, um,
45:40
that's sort of the other piece in all of this is that
45:43
it's probably mostly not about you.
45:46
It's almost mostly not about you.
45:49
>> Loren: That goes back to our Kenzie Tate clip.
45:52
Right? Like, we all got our stuff and
45:54
it's. It's not about us, but we
45:57
also process it like, it's about us.
46:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
46:01
>> Loren: Um, pastors, check out Kenzie Tate. Uh, I'll tell her she
46:04
owes me for this, but
46:07
she's doing good stuff there. Let's do two more
46:10
here. Um, so this
46:12
is
46:17
the last one here.
46:19
Um, this actually comes
46:22
from your winter
46:24
season, and this is too good of a clip not to
46:27
play. So obviously
46:30
leadership is a tricky thing and let's just
46:33
play this. This is from Martha's interview over the
46:36
winter. I can't remember which number this is, but this is around the 100.
46:39
5155 episode number
46:42
with justice. Excuse me, Justin Lewis. Anthony,
46:45
is that right? And he talks about,
46:48
you know, he's, he's against the model of leadership.
46:51
And we might feel differently, or at least,
46:54
um, critiques some elements. But he does have some intriguing
46:57
points to play here. And this one especially
47:01
speaks to it. Let's listen in.
47:04
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony: Interesting side question. Why don't they have leadership studies in
47:07
Germany? Because do you know what the german word for
47:10
leader is?
47:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Fuhrer.
47:12
>> Loren: There you go.
47:12
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony: Uh, it's really hard to have leadership studies when the
47:15
model of leadership is the Fuhrer.
47:17
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh my gosh.
47:18
>> Justin Lewis-Anthony: Hitler wasn't the first Fuhrer. There were people who were constantly
47:21
looking for the Fuhrer. Um, like the
47:24
english look for King Arthur. And Bonhoeffer would
47:27
have been the perfect candidate for it. I mean, he was tall, he was good looking,
47:30
he was blonde, he was, ah, charismatic.
47:33
He was musical. Um, he played Bach.
47:36
Like Bach. Um, he was a fantastic tennis
47:39
player. Um, he was really good company. And
47:42
he was morally
47:44
scrupulous. Um, and he
47:47
refused to take on
47:50
the role that, um, people that he could
47:53
have easily taken on.
47:56
To go back to the lord of the Rings metaphor, he refused to take
47:59
the one ring. He was basically Faramir and not Boromir.
48:02
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm not that well versed in, uh,
48:05
Lord of the Rings to remember that little who
48:08
those two people are. But
48:10
what he talks about, what Justin talks about in that clip,
48:13
I think is really compelling because especially,
48:16
I don't know what it's like up in Canada,
48:19
Martha, but we're certainly seeing this dynamic
48:22
in the States, you know, the run up
48:25
here to another election. And so many people
48:28
are really obsessed with, ah, Donald
48:31
Trump and his kind of just authoritative
48:34
leadership. There is so much
48:36
of this
48:39
tension, this appeal, this lust,
48:42
this temptation to become this kind of.
48:46
Because I think that, I don't know, like,
48:49
I think there is some kind of like,
48:51
sinful element, if I can use that word, of humanity, that we kind of
48:54
want this kind of like, tell me everything, I'll follow
48:57
you. When, like,
49:00
right. I think we'd say, like, our, we should follow
49:03
Jesus.
49:06
How do we balance attention as church
49:09
leaders?
49:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like, Justin has some real mic
49:16
drop moments in that interview.
49:18
Um, and like you say, it's
49:21
hard to throw out the whole model of leadership
49:24
because we're
49:26
formed every step of the way to be
49:28
christian leaders. Like, oh,
49:31
this podcast is about christian
49:34
leadership in so many ways, and yet at the
49:37
same time. I think what he's saying fundamentally
49:40
is, like, we have to interrogate
49:43
that tendency. Well, like,
49:46
that Messiah complex, um, that we can wear
49:49
as christian leaders too
49:51
easily and that people can put on us
49:54
as well as, like, you say that, like,
49:57
deep desire to have somebody
50:00
just save us.
50:01
>> Loren: Yes.
50:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right.
50:02
>> Loren: Yes.
50:04
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like, we just. We want somebody to show up
50:07
and save our churches. We want somebody to show up and save
50:10
our country. I mean, that's what the maga
50:12
like, motto speaks to, right?
50:15
Like, is that desire to be saved.
50:18
And thankfully, like, in the church
50:20
anyway, we, um, we do
50:23
have a savior. We. We can forget
50:26
that. So, like, we have to keep.
50:29
We have to keep coming back to it. We have to keep
50:31
repenting, really. Like, we have to keep
50:34
being called back to who the
50:36
actual Messiah is. And,
50:39
like, spoiler alert, it's neither one of us.
50:42
>> Loren: Yeah.
50:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Or anybody else listening to this podcast.
50:46
>> Loren: Yeah, well, this is. Well, this is good stuff. Any
50:49
other thoughts you want to share about, uh, the last season
50:52
here?
50:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: Uh, I mean, I just love that we
50:58
have a chance to do this because I I do
51:01
see how interconnected all of this is.
51:04
I mean, everything that we heard in that last
51:07
clip is certainly not unrelated to
51:10
all of the pieces that we talked about around, you know, that
51:13
consumer model and that kind of
51:15
capitalistic model that we can get locked
51:18
into as churches
51:21
as well. And, um, I
51:24
think just giving an opportunity
51:26
for these really wise
51:29
voices that you keep bringing
51:32
into this podcast to speak,
51:36
um, to one another as well,
51:38
is, like, really important to
51:41
see the unique
51:44
perspectives that each guest is
51:46
bringing, but then also to see those common
51:49
denominators that keep rising to the surface.
51:52
>> Loren: Yeah. Thank you. So why don't we give a teaser here
51:55
for your upcoming summer season?
51:58
Uh, share about some of the interviews and
52:01
conversations you're working on or in some cases,
52:04
already completed.
52:06
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm really
52:09
excited about, uh,
52:12
the conversations that I've had so far. There's
52:15
some really interesting,
52:17
um, conversations about the
52:20
importance of the small
52:23
and the local in the life of the
52:25
church. Um, there
52:28
are, uh,
52:31
there's a conversation with someone
52:34
who doesn't give us those magic bullets,
52:36
but has done some research into,
52:39
uh, some of the common denominators across
52:42
flourishing and mainline churches, which I think
52:45
is of interest to a lot of our
52:49
audience. Um, talked
52:52
to some people here in my
52:55
neck of the woods in Canada, and some people
52:58
across the pond and, uh,
53:01
some people in the states. There's a few
53:04
other conversations around clergy,
53:07
um, burnout and wellness. And
53:09
I am working on, um, securing
53:12
an interview that I'm really excited about,
53:16
uh, with, uh, a particular hero of
53:18
mine. So if any of our audience wants to
53:21
just say a prayer for me that I'm actually able
53:24
to get that, uh, to
53:27
materialize, I would appreciate those prayers, because,
53:30
um, it's a conversation I would just love to share
53:32
with our audience.
53:35
>> Loren: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks so much,
53:37
Martha, for this conversation. Let's just each kind
53:40
of give our. Our shout out here. So
53:43
shameless. Well, honest asks. Let's say this, right,
53:46
honest asks. It really helps to
53:49
support our work here together. If you
53:52
can, um, subscribe, review,
53:55
share this with a friend. Martha, what am I
53:58
forgetting?
54:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, like, those reviews are the number one
54:03
way to help, uh, future
54:05
christian reach more people.
54:08
And, um, we say that not as
54:11
people who are really interested in
54:14
getting the greatest market share, um,
54:17
but as people who really care about the life
54:20
of our church and want this conversation to
54:23
be as, um, wide
54:25
and deep as possible.
54:27
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for adding that.
54:30
Well, again, we always leave folks
54:33
with a word of peace. Samartha. May God's peace
54:36
be with you.
54:38
>> Martha Tatarnic: And may God's peace be with you. Also, uh.
54:42
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
54:45
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
54:47
visit future dash christian.com.
54:51
One more thing before you go. Do us a favor
54:54
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
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feeling especially generous, leave a review.
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It really helps us get the word out to more people about the
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Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
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55:17
and go in peace.