Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Enneagram Five: From Head Knowledge to Heart Connection | Sherri Hughes-Gragg

Transcript

Enneagram Five: From Head Knowledge to Heart Connection | Sherri Hughes-Gragg · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a five-wing six.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but it felt like to me, it was a little bit disconcerting because it felt like someone had peeled my skin back and was looking inside me.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I felt so seen.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: It helped me really see my blind spots, you know, appreciate my strengths, but also be aware, oh, that is what I do when I'm in stress.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I can be hurtful that way.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like it can be beautiful and it can be a strength, or I can be hurtful.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: That it's a tool for me to humbly go before God and be honest about myself.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Learning to study scripture through the culture and history in which it was written was a deep moment of healing for me in my own journey.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Knowing God in truth has revolutionized my existence.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think being known by God for me is taking what I'm learning about him and letting that do its good work in me so that I learn to rest my heart in him.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for real life.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Sherry, I am so thrilled to invite you into this month all about the Enneagram Five.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: We've mapped out the Fives landscape from their depth and perception to their fear of depletion and tendencies to withdraw.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we've named a lot about it, but I want to always in the kind of that last conversation of the month for each type, go even deeper in the spiritual depth, like wisdom for the type, formation for the type, and invite people who've done the work, but who are also teaching and guiding the work.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: And Sherry, you really fit that bill.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for saying yes.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't take that lightly and really excited to have you here.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: I always love talking to you.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just an honor for me to be back.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for letting me do that.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it was also really good for me to pause and think about these things again, like in detail, because it'd been a minute and it's always helps me understand a lot about myself and about God as I do.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's easy as a teacher and a writer and speaker to just keep doing the work and not always to pause, like, why do I do this?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: And why's why does it manifest in this way and my process?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to talk a little bit about that.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: I want to say, and we'll go ahead and link it as some of our past conversations.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: One fives are hard to get on the podcast.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've established this detail.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's me.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I never say no to a podcast, but my fives in my world, I love them, but they will definitely say no to a podcast.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: But we've chatted before because of your Advent book, which to this day, I get a lot of Advent books.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: I aspire to maybe someday write something along those lines.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe Christmas tide would be more my jam, but your book still is so beautiful.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I know we're not at Christmas yet, but I just got to give a little shout out to the Advent book that you wrote because it is a masterpiece in my mind.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, thank you.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I have great news.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's being re-released this November by uh HarperCollins Acquired Day Spring, and they're re-releasing it, repackaging it, and it will now be the promised Christ.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so uh, you know, I have two books written in the same style.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm so sure you remember that.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: The other one was re-released last November as the Compassionate Christ, and that's about the ministry of Jesus.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the Advent book is now being re-released as the Promised Christ.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been very joyful for me, and I'm so grateful for the opportunity.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it's excellent and moving with what I would call breath prayers.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's very it invites you into the story, the the lived feeling and movement and wondering that can sometimes just read very flat when it's been become wrote or what we just have done for the last 40 years or more.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And you bring the the players and the story to life in a really beautiful way.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I just gotta keep sharing it because I'm so excited.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm it's very well deserved that it's getting repackaged and reshared because yes, I will gladly be like, yeah, read this one.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I just want the new updated version.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have them yet, or I would send you one uh yeah, I've written a lot of books at this point, but those are my two book babies.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: Those were the two of my crazy little concepts that formulated in my head that began my whole journey as an author.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the compassionate Christ, which was arms open wide.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was such a novice and completely unknown and managed just by the miraculous grace of God, have that published by Thomas Nelson.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was completely insane to for that to happen.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I still feel that way about it.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it just feels like pure grace.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Just pure grace.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I do.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: The the writing journey for every author is so unique, but for those who are partnering with the Holy Spirit, part of the uniqueness is the beauty of how God hands them the words, I believe, but then also what it looks like in the sharing and the distributing and what we learn along the way, which is never easy or straightforward.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: But here we are.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: We just said yes.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so good.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm excited about it.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I I do want to talk in depth about your experience with being in Enneagram Five, some of your discoveries.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just start there.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh your type, but then how it's been useful in the writing and teaching that you've done over the years.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think it was one of the funny things for me about discovering the Enneagram is that I think fives kind of like to hide, just like you said, they didn't want to come on your podcast, you know.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so what was so fascinating to me is I had begun attending an Anglican church and I had just the most precious priest there, and he was the one, and he was also a five.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And one day he looked at me and said, I think you're a five, and I think you should learn about the Enneagram.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so I took the test and found out I was a five-winged five-winged six, and immediately educated myself about the Enneagram because I'm a five-winged six.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but it felt like to me, it was a little bit disconcerting because it felt like someone had peeled my skin back and was looking inside me.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I felt so seen and was able to, as I read through the various strengths and dangers, I was like, oh wow, that's me.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: I do that.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, just recently uh I'm I moved as well, and I have really worked on my property and someone, an a neighbor complained about something and it hurt my feelings.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: And my my my first instinct was I'm moving out in the country and I want a long gravel driveway with a gate at the end and I'm never coming out.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like that was that was immediately where I went in that moment of stress.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Hide, run away.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's just been such a humbling journey for me.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I loved that it helped me really see my blind spots, you know, appreciate my strengths, but also be aware, oh, that is what I do when I'm in stress.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I can be hurtful that way.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like it can be beautiful and it can be a strength, or I can be hurtful in those moments when it's not healthy.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so I love that about it, that it's a tool for me to humbly go before God and be honest about myself.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: In uh in just a couple of weeks, I'm hosting any the whole hearted Enneagram Summit again, and it's gonna be very focused on the spiritual formation because the vision here is that our starting point doesn't have to be our step point.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: But when we have language about where we're beginning and we can orient ourselves on the map called life, we can head a better direction, be aware, like you said, those moments where we're hurtful, unintentionally, very often, very unconsciously, so often.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh but a matter of having the language and the awareness is so powerful and such a gift to our relationships.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's kind of in that too, because I think your work, your writing, especially when it comes to bringing out the word of God, it kind of demonstrates and shows off the gift that a five has to offer the world, where you'd approach scripture from a cultural history and geo geographic standpoint, not just in the text of what we're able to observe.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, just talk to us a little bit about that and kind of your methodology that maybe you didn't, maybe you just did um because that's who you are, but now you see the details of it and the uniqueness of it compared to what else is available.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can't remember who said this, but someone said we should write the books we need to read, you know?
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and so for me, I learning to study scripture through the culture and history in which it was written was a deep moment of healing for me in my own journey.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't and is it okay for me to go into that a little bit?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh please, yes.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: So um I grew up in a faith environment where it was really easy to get things wrong.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: There were a lot of ways to fall short, is what I would say.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so um punishment could be harsh and judgment swift.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it was really hard for me because I was a sensitive, quiet child.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of times I wouldn't even be trying to do anything wrong and suddenly find myself harshly condemned and harshly punished.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when that element had an when it had an element of public shaming to it, that was even more painful for me.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so over time, you know, this concept of trying so hard and being punished and feeling like I was never enough, no matter what.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: It not only created a lot of despair in my life as a young teenager, especially, but it really warped my view of God.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I reached a place I couldn't separate who he was from everything that I had experienced every moment of my life, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, everything in between.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't separate that out.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I lived in a lot of fear of God even as an adult.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Then and and felt like no matter what I did, I wasn't enough.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so when God in his mercy, because he knows that's the path I had to take is here first.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: I had to take that path, I had to understand something else.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so he brought me to studying scripture through the Middle Eastern cultural lens.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I began to realize when I applied the culture and history to the Bible to the moments that I had been reading through my Western, modern cultural lens, and that had been taught to me at times through that lens, that God was far more compassionate and kinder than I ever imagined.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: It was literally like putting, you know how when you were a kid, you had one of those books and you could put a different color film over the picture and you would see different things.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it was like.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so as I realized that and it was so healing to me, I wanted to share that with other people.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: And as I began to read scripture, and you know, we just get the bare the basics, don't we?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: And those stories.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we fill them in our imagination as best as we can with what we know.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: But when you start learning what was actually there, it changes what you're reading.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And as I began to realize, oh, God isn't out to get me.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: He's so much kinder and more compassionate than I ever imagined.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to share that with other people.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, what if I write the stories?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: What if I try to take them to the moments that I'm now seeing in my head?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so that was how that journey happened for me.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Therefore, the compassionate Christ, and it's so true, Sherry.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I I think again and again as I continue to study the word of God and exegete with what capacity I have or tools available, it matters so much that we understand the culture and the history.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because to your point, even a lot of times the traditions toward women and how the view of women and how the tradition has been carried out is so anti-biblical when we understand how woman God was and Jesus was, that alone can be revolutionary for a lot of traditions.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Scandalously so at his time.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, at times Jesus really was the way he elevated the cause of women.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember sitting and reading Kenneth Bailey's book, Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, and I got to the section of women, and I remember first of all writing, he sees us as equal in every way.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that was so different than everything I had that had shaped my life.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: I was so blown away, I got up and I just paced around.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: I remember I was on a deck and I just had to get up and walk it off.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I and so, yes, it's been so restorative and healing.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: And really, Amy, it saved my life because I was given to such despair at times, you know, especially as a young adult and as a teenager, and knowing God in truth has revolutionized my existence.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I will be forever grateful.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And if I have a way to share that with people, I will do it because one of the things I learned is that I'm not alone.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of people out there who are afraid God is out to get them.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so if I can share the truth, that is absolutely not the case, he is for you, you know, then that's definitely what I want to do.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the truth that God is love and he can never separate himself from that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I think that if we as a body of Christ, no matter what tradition, but we as partners in that going, how can we extend that love?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: How can we invite people to that love?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's gonna change things in the long run.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so it is.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I've loved how you have definitely been able to use that gifting, that insight, your own process into the stories that you share and the writing of that.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: What's just tell me a little bit more about even the invitation to linger?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because for a lot of us, lingering in the word of God or in the study or in scripture, it's counterintuitive.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's not natural.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's maybe a little bit more natural for you, but tell us a little bit of that growth for you and your invitation for those of us who maybe aren't pausing to consider or take a little bit more to prepare and observe and study.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know I just needed time to process.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: The truths were so big for me and so different than you know, I was a pastor's child.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was in so much church.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I started being confronted with these big, loving, outrageously lavishly kind and compassionate truths, I would just have to stop and sit in it for a while.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned to pray, you know, it's it's really it's about humility is the way forward because I learned to pray like a child.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, God help me understand this.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Holy Spirit, help me understand this.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, heal me, heal me of the wounds that are getting in the way, heal me of my flawed way of thinking and believing from before.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just I would love to say, if I can, I would like to offer the possibility that it's okay to not fill in the blanks in a Bible study.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's okay to not read a lot.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you are reading through the Psalms and a verse lifts off the page for you, that's your invitation to stop and sit with that verse, that God is speaking in that moment.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the beauty in the admonition to talk about it as you get up and as you lie down and as you walk along the way, that it should be sort of like breathing, you know, and that's what it means to be in relationship and to make space for God to speak to us, is what I believe.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've enjoyed hearing from different personalities who are Bible teachers because one, we study the Bible study uniquely, or we study the word of God uniquely and have our unique processes.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: But there's also the differences in sharing what we're doing.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And for writing, man, writing is a it requires a lot from us.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And for a five, I think there's probably a unique challenge in there to take what you have done in private and in quiet, but then share it publicly.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: I know it's been a process of grace and mercy, but what has made you willing to do that ultimately?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because it it does cost a lot and require a lot to continue to show up alongside the work that you're doing privately.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I remember when my first book, Arms Up and Wide, which was now the compassionate Christ, it was gonna hit shelves and feeling terror pain, terror because it felt I realized that it was like people would see a window into my soul, you know, and at the time I was living with a lot of heartbreak that I had to keep to myself.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so the way my books are structured is the first part is I write the narrative, which are, you know, stories from scripture that I'm bringing in the culture and history of the Bible.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's the knowing part, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of each, there's a prayer.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And those prayers were what I was worried about because the prayers are the reflection of how it made it to my heart.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of them were taken straight from my journals.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so they were little snapshots into that.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it was really difficult for me to be that vulnerable to take, say, here is my deepest heartbreak, and here's what God is saying to me in it, and here I'm going to let you look at that and possibly pass judgment on it if you see to fit to do so.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: That was difficult, but I really so long for anyone who feels like idea, like they're not enough, or that God is out to get them, or he's an angry God.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I want them to be free too.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And if I can share with them what God has given me and that help them along that way, to me, there is no greater meaning.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: To my life than that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I just realized that vulnerability was the the cost of that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: That if God was going to use my pain to try to help others, then I had to be vulnerable with it.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that to me is the big cost, I think.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have to say though, that is I love the overlays of understanding culture and context and and geography and the history and the elements that you draw into the narrative, but the prayers are so just stunning.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: And because they are echoing phrases in our own heart that maybe I would venture sometimes you didn't have words for the reader reading through that.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love liturgy, I love Lectio, I love that participation of following written prayer.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I appreciate that you took that tradition, but gave it such rich language that is vulnerable, but also so real and relatable.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think for maybe someone who comes from different traditions, you give permission to pray in a more honest way or pray with words that it's not that it's that flowery.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they are beautifully written.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: You have a very poetic style, but they're just raw and honest.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that could be a gift to so many.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up hearing things in church about, you know, like if you were struggling or you were doubting that was sinned and and that was condemned.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: I really believe with all of my heart that growth happens in our places of honesty with God.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: He already knows what's in our heart anyway.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not really sure what we're trying to do and hiding it.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, true.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I when I was diagnosed with can, did you know I had cancer?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: I can't remember if you knew that or not.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was diagnosed the day after I signed divorce papers.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I was really angry at God for a hot minute.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I was so grateful that I had the experience of people in my life who had taught me that we are have permission through the Psalms particularly to be as honest as we want to be with God, that He welcomes that honesty.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's that place of honesty where He begins to work the work of healing and shine the light of truth.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I hope people will be brave enough to be honest with God.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's where He does his best work.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really unique, Sherry, that you've been able to take what would maybe instinctually do and approach God with head knowledge.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And instead, through your study and your work, you really identify with being known by God and knowing Him on a more experiential level.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: How has that, or what where do you think that ability has come from?
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or even what distinction would you make for the person who's going, I tend to approach from ahead.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I have a harder time with the experience.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: How could you help our friend listening cross that bridge, if you will?
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think I would say, first of all, that I believe that's what the gift of the stories of scripture.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: That I think that's why that God offers us human beings living out their struggles.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think about the story I wrote, The Wind and the Waves, where they're on the Sea of Galilee and the storm comes up, and what do they say?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh God, Lord, don't you care?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And isn't that what we all want to know?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like when we're overwhelmed and we're terrified and we're sinking, don't you care?
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so I just feel like there's such humanity in scripture and it's just grace from God.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think there is a danger and stopping it knowing about God that you keep it up here.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think the danger, I'll just speak from my own experience, is in the moments, if if I think I have God figured out, then that allows me to slip into pride.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: And pride gives birth to judgment and condemnation, and honestly a forgetfulness of God.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because if I think I have him all figured out and I I've got it locked down and I can tell my neighbor exactly what they need to do with their lives and give them a peace of my mind, what's my need of God then?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And he said we have to come to him like little children.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's what he said, you know, and so I think being known by God for me is taking what I'm learning about him and letting that do its good work in me so that I learn to rest my heart in him.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's the biggest change for me.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Learning to study through the Middle Eastern lens is that I no longer see God as a judgmental God who's ready to strike me down.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think that was what I knew about God, you know.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: But when I began to be known by God, I began to say, oh, he has compassion for me, he has love for me.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Then he becomes the place that I rest my heart in him.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I do feel like a failure, or I stumble and fall, or I feel like I suffer unjust criticism and all the things in my five self want to buy that piece of land out in the country and build that gate at the end of the drive, which I may too, Amy.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: I may still you may, it sounds lovely.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a and now I'm able to go and rest in God like a child with a parent receiving comfort.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because see, I don't believe those things about him anymore.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And when I get that from the world, from other people, whatever, I know that's not how he looks at me.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that is everything.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it means to be known by God.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, so good, Sherry.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: I want to give a chance for you to speak to in a vulnerable way, but you've mentioned two things, both divorce and cancer.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think two of some of our biggest fears as a woman.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the the other piece of this is a lot of times we formulize our faith and we go through the motions going, if I do X, Y, Z, it'll equal the good and happy life.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of where I'm inviting our conversation in the summit and on this podcast is to go.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: We could do XYZ and it equals in tragedy and hardship and persecution in massive disappointment.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: The outcome does not match our expectations.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so you just talked about, I mean, you came to this revelation and intimacy with the Lord.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: You were doing writing, you've been doing work.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: This is not a new thing.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then yet you've been faced with this heartache and hardship and things that we none of us would want to or wish on our worst enemy.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: So just maybe share a little bit more from that place of learning and hanging on to the Lord through it, and and maybe some other aspects of God that you've come to understand in greater measure that we we maybe don't know before we are faced with the with the storms that wreck havoc on our life.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's so interesting to hear you put it that way because I did, you know, I really believed.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I was trying to be good, you know, and I really believed that if I did X, Y, and Z, and if I gave enough and if I sacrificed enough, and if I served enough, and if I forgave enough, and I forgave and I forgave.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I reached that place of what do we call it, uh, that frailty of humanity where it doesn't matter how mean we are to ourselves, there's nothing else we can do.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah, we've reached our limit.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Vinitude, that's the word.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And and the heartbreak of realizing that, okay, now I must tell the truth.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth is not just gonna be mine to bear anymore, it's gonna be a lot of people's to bear, and and it's going to be painful and devastating and crushing.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth means things are gonna fall apart.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: I won't hold them together anymore.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's one thing, you know, and and then to get to the end of that and feel like I wasn't gonna survive it and be looking, oh, I think I'm gonna make it in the very day after I sign papers, be diagnosed with breast cancer.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: There's just no words for that.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: But and I remember saying to God, what about your promises?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've been telling people that you were near to the brokenhearted, and he is, you know.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm telling people that you bring justice to the oppressed.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: What is this?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but the truth is bad things happen down here, Amy.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: This place is broken.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it it doesn't mean that I did anything wrong, although I had some very unkind people imply that that cancer was God's judgment for me for filing for divorce.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: But it um it just means that bad things happen down here.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: This is the world we live in.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: But what I came to that is what I would love to offer anyone who's going through something you never imagined would happen, is that God loves you and he will stay with you in the middle of it.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: He will sit with you in the darkness.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he did.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And he showed up for me and the people in my life when I had no faith.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, my mom, man, she prayed for me.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I would say, Mama, I can't pray anymore.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm too brokenhearted.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: God broke my heart, you know, and I'm too angry and I can't pray.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: My mom prayed for me, and friends believed for me when I couldn't.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: And bit by bit I began to walk it out, and it were some terrifying moments.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: But you wouldn't know it if you looked at that picture of me right before I go back for that double mastect in me, because in that moment I had peace.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I had peace, and God stayed with me, and I think my faith has changed.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's simpler and quieter now, it's less performative by far.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: I just know the truth, which is we are all held by grace, and all of us at any minute could have the ground ripped out from under us, but God is still there, he's there in the free fall.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what I would offer.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: He is there in the free fall.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: So true.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sherry, that was really beautiful.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for going there and just sharing the emotions and tears and that.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that is the conversation ultimately where we can talk about these practices and we talk about the word of God, but really what we're often left grappling with is where is he when things don't go the way I think they should have or could have or hoped for or prayed for.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know just I wish we only went through one valley or one dark night or one vow of depression, I know, or loss and grief.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: There, there are many more in this side of heaven.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say yes and amen.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: That is what I have realized.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: He's there in the free fall, he is there when nothing else is left.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Everything else has forsaken us.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he mends the brokenhearted, he just asks us for the pieces and he does the work of it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in maturity, we go, oh, I was trying to sue for glue at all.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: And he's like, honey, just here.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've got it.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, that's right.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he's with us, you know, and he writes says, Where is God?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's in the rubble.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he's in the rubble.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that that image is of a natural disaster, an earthquake, and people are trapped.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: Where is God?
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_01: He is in the rubble, and I know that to be true.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: I know that to be true.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: As we have two more questions as we wrap up this very lovely conversation, I want to hear your wisdom for the five who has maybe had a stirring about sharing something with others, whether it's a book or offering a small group or just a bigger, vulnerable, more public-facing step of faith.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: How would you encourage her today?
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're on the other side, you said yes, you've been doing it, you've been walking it out.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: What would you encourage, my friend?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, maybe in the next step or just to understand as they give a yes to the Lord.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I believe that we are to be bringing the kingdom of God down to earth.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we're supposed to be doing as we live here.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And God does have something for each of us to do, and that takes courage, you know, and it takes trusting Him.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think one warning is that um there reaches a moment when you have to stop preparing for that, you know, and studying and you're gonna have to pull the trigger, and that it's okay if you feel depleted at the end of that to take your rest, that there's a ri a rhythm.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I've just learned that.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm going to have to be on, then I'm going to have to have quiet time.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, it's part of being honest about how we are made, but that you do have something to give, and that I hope you will, and that you can trust God to meet you on the other side.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: He has enough strength to renew you on the other side.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's a beautiful word of wisdom.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: We're all about rhythms here.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it is when we understand ourselves, we need, we know what we need to like incubate the places that's harder or more upstream for us.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly launching a book, even relaunching.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know for you, you're entering a season where it's going to require more of you.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that you probably have some of that solitude built in and wisdom too.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: For the five who's listening and is interested in taking a step, knowing now, being just reminded my starting point isn't my stuff point.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: What what kind of encouragement in maybe a relationship or with the Lord or scripture?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: What does the next step look like that you would encourage them to take as they want to grow and maturity and formation in Christ ultimately?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think study, of course, which they're going to love anyway, but something that's been really helpful for me as a five is practicing the tradition of Christian meditation.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I mean by that is scripture talks a lot about meditating on God's truth and on the word.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: We live in a society that is not very conducive to quieting the noise.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think fives like we can get really lost in our heads.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I'm speaking for myself.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like I need moments when I can quiet my mind.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it helps me to find a quiet place and to turn off everything else, close my eyes, slow deep breaths.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it usually takes me four or five before things begin to quiet down.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: But once I get to that place and I open my heart up to God and his love, his compassion, his guidance for me, that is there's no peace like that peace.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think I just would love to say that your mind is beautiful and it's good, but you're going to have to tell it to be quiet occasionally so you can sit with your heart, you know, and and your mind won't be wasted.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: God's going to use it, you know.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the way you're made.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's that's fine.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you're going to have to quiet it sometimes so that you can receive from God and hear his still small voice in your life.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way it works for me.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, Sherry.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that's textbook accurate.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Engaging in silence is so vital for the five.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, I just appreciate you giving it your own language and words because a lot of times fives are going, well, I like silence.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but like you said, resting your mind in that silence is so important.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then engaging in what does the Lord have to offer and to receive in that way.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Sherry, this was so good.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Another rich conversation with you is not a surprise, it is a delight and a gift.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I really appreciate you sharing and sharing honestly and vulnerably, giving us that gift and the energy with that.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm excited for what's to come for you, not only in the very well-deserved relaunching some of this work, but I imagine that the Lord has been stirring some other things and messages in your heart and in your mind to be sharing in the years to come.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Amy.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's pure joy.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate you having me.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I will be sure to put all the ways to connect with you in the show notes and to continue to follow up on these re-releases and to engage with your work because it's beautiful.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: You will not regret it.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much, Sherry.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your step point.