Latest / Red Couch Theology / How Do You Forgive Someone Who’s Still Hurting You?

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How Do You Forgive Someone Who’s Still Hurting You? · Red Couch Theology

• 0:00
  Hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of
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  the Red Couch Theology podcast, when this week we talked about
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  theology the entire time. I apologize for the long
• 0:10
  episode, but this topic touched a chord with many of you.
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  How in the world can you go about forgiving someone who's
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  been a perpetrator ongoing? How can you continue to live
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  with them? How can you possibly forgive
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  them? Isn't that even moral, immoral
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  and justifying their behavior? All of these kinds of tensions
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  we deal with in this episode. And we talked about the
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  difference between reconciliation and forgiveness.
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  I can't even describe everything we talked about, so let's dive
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  in and see where it goes. And we're live.
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  On that note. We were just about to have this
• 0:50
  big heated debate and I was like, why don't we go live and
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  have the heated debate on the show?
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  Was it heated? I don't know.
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  No, we weren't. We're in the realms of
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  forgiveness. How do I get you to look less
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  tan? I look like a ghost.
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  You can't. All right, I'm going to untan
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  Alex for a second. You.
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  Can't untan me, I'm the tannest. This is such a weird way even
• 1:22
  for us to start a podcast. I'm just like.
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  It doesn't matter how now. See, that at least looks like
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  you look more tan, but it's not like it's not like obnoxious
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  where you're almost like not even English anymore.
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  You know Walton. 'S like Middle Eastern.
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  Tan well. And don't wear sunscreen.
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  Everything. No, we that's not what we're
• 1:44
  here to talk about. Let's go.
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  What are we here to talk about? Oh yeah, we don't want to go
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  down the train wreck of my 1 great conspiracy theory, which
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  is that sunscreen is bad for you.
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  Oh man, that's that's publicly streamed now?
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  Well, I don't even care. What's funny is that'll probably
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  have more hate mail than any of the theological things we say.
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  Is sunscreen bad? Yeah, it's like so polarizing.
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  Totally is so we are talking about forgiveness and and if you
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  are upset about me not wearing sunscreen, then I ask you
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  forgiveness. Maybe you should give it anyway.
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  We don't even we don't even know again.
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  So last week I talked about anger or the week before we
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  started with anger. We've got like a a three-week
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  series flow processing hard relationships, maybe painful
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  moments, trauma in the past. Yeah, maybe not enough time to
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  process that. I mean, it's going to take a lot
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  more work. Yeah, that's the sense I got is
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  like is so far I'm like, Oh my goodness.
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  The three weeks that Alex planned out for the series feel
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  like genius, except for I feel like each topic in the three is
• 3:03
  are genius in their in their progression and they're all
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  those things. But it's almost like you need
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  six weeks on topic, 1-6 weeks on topic, two six weeks on topic 3
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  because the emotional charge is way bigger than three weeks can
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  handle. Yeah, as as I put this in, I was
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  like 3 weeks, I felt like this is going to throw a grenade into
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  the summer and I just. Yeah, the light hearted.
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  You were teasing me about the light hearted topic of the cross
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  the previous week and then you go into forgiveness and anger.
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  So, so, so, so I like that we started with anger.
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  I I think that if you think about the whole process as a
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  conversation around reconciliation, which is where
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  we'll get to at the end, which is where I would argue we're
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  called as followers of Jesus. Which is why I think that you're
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  the way you set up the series is so genius because it was almost
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  like prerequisites to reconciliation, which is
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  actually the most difficult phase.
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  It's most difficult phase and and you can't you specifically
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  can't do reconciliation without forgiveness.
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  And and and. I think it's hard to do
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  forgiveness without dealing with anger.
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  Like like. I think that they become
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  prerequisites. This is me, I'm just sucking up
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  to you to see if I can heal the wounds that I caused you on.
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  Oh. Well, we don't even have.
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  I can't even talk about that yet.
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  I still have a few more days to process.
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  So, you know, I, I don't even have to make a decision.
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  You gave me a week to figure out forgiveness and I've only had a
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  few days. So, you know, we'll get there.
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  I, I was, I was on vacation. I was on, I was on vacation
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  giving these pictures sent to me.
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  I was like, wow, like, how could someone do that to me?
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  Wow. If you don't know what you're
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  talking about, I I put a photo of Alex up in a Broncos jersey
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  and then told him he looked holier in a Broncos journey.
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  Still runs deep, still runs deep.
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  So anger began with with, you know, we, we actually began with
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  getting comfortable with saying, saying what we feel.
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  I I I love the way Walter Brueggemann talks about
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  imprecatory psalms. And it begins with this idea of
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  something inside of us. As Christians might say, I
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  shouldn't feel this way, but what if you feel this way?
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  And I think there's been language in churches, in sermons
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  I've heard, maybe even sermons I've given over the years that
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  have skipped the anger step that have suggested that you can
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  actually get to honest forgiveness without expressing
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  those deep emotions. Now, now maybe sometimes you
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  can, maybe some people get there, but but I think you at
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  least need to throw out the option and and use the language
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  given to us in the scriptures, which is really like no say what
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  you feel like God can handle what you feel.
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  And then eventually give it to him.
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah. So without that, the if you
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  don't go through the process of plumbing the depths of your own
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  emotional pain, then if you offer forgiveness, it's
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  actually, it's not even forgiveness of the entire
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  personal problem. You're, you're, I'd say it's
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  actually a secret throwing it under the rug and pretending
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  like it's not there, which never goes well for anyone.
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  So until you go through that first phase and really grapple
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  with the gravity of your own pain, then your forgiveness is
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  only partial at best, right? Yeah, so, so, so.
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  I think even Step 1 takes courage because the moment you
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  hand over responsibility for justice to someone else, you've
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  really lost control. Now.
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  Now the level to which you actually have control, we could
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  get into that, but but you're, you're entering into this
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  process, saying God, instead of me deciding what happens to them
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  and perhaps even acting on it, I'm going to allow you to
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  decide. There's something beautiful
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  about the element of control. I think we'll get to this again
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  this week when we talk about reconciliation, but it reminds
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  me of of the movie version of a book we both enjoy and I've read
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  many times. You've you've certainly read
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  more or two times, which is The Count of Monte Cristo.
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  Yes, once a story about forgiveness that that has become
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  over a couple of centuries actually one of the go to
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  stories for revenge for how you process anger.
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  It was actually written at the same time as Les Miserables.
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  Yeah. Which is actually a story of
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  forgiveness like. One's more about revenge, the
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  other one's more about. Forgiveness and in in one of the
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  film versions, there's this moment where something like
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  something like we're talking about here is offered and and
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  Edmund Dantes says to Mercedes the the fiance that he lost all
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  those years ago. If you ever loved me, don't rob
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  me of my hate. It's all I have.
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  He he he expresses this sense of like, this is the thing I'm
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  hanging on to. This is the thing that's keeping
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  me sane, being able to have this feeling of hate.
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  Yeah. And he's like those that have
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  hurt me. And what's wild is he's, like,
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  wildly successful financially, wildly influential.
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  Yeah. And the engine inside of all
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  that success is hate. Is hate, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  That's how it. That's how it's a.
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  Highly productive engine in the soul.
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  Yeah. And so I think when I talked
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  about anger a couple of years ago, I I shared a story that
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  came back to my mind, which was, I found out a piece of
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  information. The context doesn't necessarily
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  matter. It was connected to some kind of
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  work thing and it it, it hit me. It came to me on a Sunday and
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  then that Sunday evening I was driving students down to to
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  Tennessee from Michigan. We used to do this senior sneak
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  trip where we'd meet at the church at midnight and we'd just
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  drive and usually I would nap for a little while on Sunday
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  afternoon into early evening. I'd get some stuff together.
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  I'd go meet them at the church and we'd go so I could do most
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  of the driving. Yeah.
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  And I'd, I'd found this thing out on Sunday morning.
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  I'd had it lurking with me on Sunday afternoon and then on
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  Sunday night, driving down to Tennessee, I just spent like 8
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  hours with my hands gripping the wheel, like almost twisting the
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  steering wheel to bits, just imagining all the things I was
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  going to say, all the ways that I was going to let loose my
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  anger on this situation. Just allowing it to begin to
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  tear my soul apart and feeling it's like, like it's, it's
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  toxicity, but it's also it's joy.
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  It's like sense of like. If I say it this way, it's going
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  to be so satisfying. So good.
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  And that's that's the the thing that you lose when you give up
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  anger, when you hand the justice to God.
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  The step you talked about this week is a step beyond that.
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  Yeah. Because then in forgiveness,
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  it's more than just not getting even right.
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  It's it's. It's actually starting to turn
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  the corner to where I'm no longer angry, but I actually
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  have this almost longing that not only that I would forgive
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  them that Eve, but that even God would forgive.
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  Them. Yeah, yeah.
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  I wondered if the the language is something like in in anger
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  and how we talked about anger. We're really saying something
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  like I'm angry and you should be too to God.
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  And then in forgiveness, we're always almost saying like I'm
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  going to forgive them and you should too.
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  Like there's almost some switch towards now.
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  We talked about this briefly the other day.
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  At this point, they don't need to know anything's going on.
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  Like just you, Phase one. Yeah, they don't even.
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  Yeah, Phase 1 and 2. They may not have a clue that
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  you're ruminating or anything. They might, but they might not.
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  It's actually this coming week where Alex will solve all of the
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  problems. So please come this.
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  I'm excited because it's this this coming week.
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  Reconciliation, out of all of the weeks, feels the most
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  daunting. Yes, I said that Jessica and I
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  were just talking about this just now.
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  I said I feel like it's the big ask.
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  It's it's. And it's got risk involved.
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  It's like reconciliation can be dangerous, yeah.
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  Yeah, yeah. And and I've processed all of
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  the the the the elements of that and I'm still not sure what to
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  say about it. Well, you know, part of like
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  what people don't a lot of people don't know is I changed a
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  huge chunk of my message on Sunday morning.
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  And partly because I realized that the some of the things I
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  was saying was going to start building to the things that you
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  were going to probably probably need to say this coming week.
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  And it was so terrifying to me that I had to add a bunch of
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  slides to caveat some stuff and hopefully diffuse more of it
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  into your week rather than mine. I love.
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  It absolutely as you should. I finished my outline this
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  morning and send it off to to be printed for like a a a Sunday
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  morning. Handout thing, yeah.
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  And I'm still not sure I can say any of it.
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  So that's where we are on Thursday morning.
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  Just light hearted summer series.
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  We've got some questions to get to, but we do.
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  So I I dropped off with anger. You have some choices.
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  Your choice one is to to get even.
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  The choice 2 is to stuff it deep inside.
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  This is all assuming you've taken Jesus seriously when he
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  says do not be angry. So, so you're trying to deal
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  with anger in some ways rather than just keeping on being
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  angry. You can get even, you know,
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  pretend you're not angry. Both of which have their
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  downsides, as we saw. Yeah, which we talked about when
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  I when I was summering it up was like, I've tried that doesn't
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  work. It just leaks out and everyone
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  now everyone's damaged, even the person, people that don't get
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  harmed. Yeah.
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  And and then the third option is to give it to God.
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  Where did you pick up from there?
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  Now you're going to remember the more planning for this week.
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  Yeah. So the passage I was assigned, I
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  think in hindsight, I didn't ever like when you assign that
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  passage, I open up, it's pretty short.
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  And really even the larger, there's like three or three
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  verses or something. The larger context is not even
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  the main point of it. It's just this, this cry of
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  Jesus on the cross. Father, forgive them for they
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  know not what they're doing. And I've never read it in the
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  context of how you assigned it to me in a forgiveness series.
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  And it was just like, it hit me like a ton of bricks at what
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  Jesus was doing and what he was actually forgiving.
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  And then as as I started studying it more, starting to
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  realize that Luke has a consistent pattern of appealing
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  to ignorance when he talks about sin, and that in the book of
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  Luke and in the book of Acts, and that Jesus then on the cross
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  appeals to ignorance in his in the context of forgiveness.
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  And then Stephen, as he's getting martyred, says almost
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  the exact same line Jesus says and appeals to this ignorance
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  kind of concept. This line of Jesus is only in
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  Luke. Yeah, and then when Peter in the
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  book of Acts is retelling the story, he says, I know you guys
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  were ignorant and your leadership was ignorant.
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  And so then I felt like, what was?
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  So then I was like, so how does Jesus get the the gall to pray
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  this outlandish prayer in in the midst of being stabbed in the
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  back by friends, which we talked about in the sermon?
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  Like I went through and tried to help people understand the the
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  personal crimes that had been committed to Jesus prior to him
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  saying this just seemingly ludicrous thing.
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  And what he does is he go, he's he has this ability to look past
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  his own personal pain and suffering and the wounds that
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  have been done to him and see the foolishness and the
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  brokenness of the ones who've wounded him, which then is like
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  a seed that allows him to then say, you know what?
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  They have no idea. They have no idea what the pain
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  is. So, so this is the the beautiful
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  perspective Jesus brings what we're going to talk when we
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  start John about the opening of John.
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  You know, Jesus is the the what's the logos, the word, the
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  reason, the whatever the behind the.
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  World the logic, yeah. He was with God, he was God and
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  so he has this perspective of, oh, this isn't what they were
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  made for. This is how they were made and
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  this isn't who they really are, which we don't have.
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  We're relying on his perspective because we often times when
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  people have brought former to us, have only seen and can only
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  know them for what they are. So so Jesus when he prays, has
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  this sense of like none of this isn't who they really are.
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  We're having to trust him. I think a little bit on.
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  Yeah. And actually that's where that's
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  a lot of what happened on Sunday morning is I realized that
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  Jesus's statement on the cross is the justification for you
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  forgiving someone. Yeah.
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  Oh, absolutely. And so because if you've been
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  harmed, you don't even know how bad it is.
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  And I that even as I say that you might be sitting listening
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  this episode thinking, yeah, I do.
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  I felt I've lived with this pain for 40 years of so and so did
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  this or said that or they harmed me or they abused me or
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  whatever. And I know how bad it is.
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  But do you really like it is so bad that it's, it's wounded you
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  for all those years and you know of your experience of the pain,
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  but then you don't know necessarily consciously the, the
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  subconscious pain that you you that you've experienced where
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  you may someone who looks like the person that harmed you, They
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  trigger you subconsciously and you just have an angst towards
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  them. Or they have similar personality
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  traits and you just can't get along with them.
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  Like psychological, emotional and physical pain are so big
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  that you can only acknowledge your personal experience of it,
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  their conscious experience of pain, but even you're not fully
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  aware of how bad it is what they did to you.
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  And they aren't because they even if they were trying to
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  damage you, they may not have a clue that you're still harmed 40
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  years later. And even if that's what their
• 19:28
  goal was, they may not realize that then the pain you caused
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  them is causing you to show up differently for your kids and
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  for your spouse and for your community.
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  And so in other words, that passing comments that your dad
• 19:45
  or mom said of like, man, what are you going to ever start
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  being fit again and stuff? And you're like wounded.
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  You feel not beautiful or whatever it may be.
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  And then that's haunted you for your whole life.
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  And then you said something similar to your kid.
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  So that person's harm has now gone spilled into multiple
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  generations, as fleeting as a comment about your weight might
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  be. They have no idea how how heavy
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  this is. And then so that so the reason
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  forgiveness is possible is still because of the cross.
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  And that that, like you just said, Jesus has this ability to
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  to zoom out all the way, see what every single human could
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  have, should have, would have been if it wasn't for the
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  brokenness, if it wasn't for the systems and powers and
• 20:32
  principalities at play. If it wasn't for all that, he
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  sees what could have been and knows all the pain of
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  generational things that led to them harming you and Jesus.
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  In in emotionally healthy spirituality, actually
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  emotionally healthy relationships.
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  I think it is maybe they don't do it in in the spirituality
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  one, which plug we're starting emotionally healthy spirituality
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  in in the fall. Just going to be just a gift, I
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  think to the church. But they they do a lot of work
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  around genograms. Oh, they do.
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  They Yeah, Yeah. So you really like tracking back
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  into like, what do I see in my parents?
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  What about my grandparents? What about my great
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  grandparents? And where do, like, lines
• 21:17
  converge? Addictive personalities pass
• 21:20
  from one generation to the next? Like the cost of addiction runs
• 21:25
  into the next generation, the cost of anger, of brokenness, of
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  crimes of all these things seem to to run and don't just
• 21:34
  disappear without our processing them.
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  Yeah, and I could tell even a personal story about that.
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  That's that I'm dealing with right now.
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  Just it. I've noticed that when I get
• 21:49
  grumpy, I'll notice that I'm grumpy.
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  I might even tell my family, I'm sorry, I'm really tired and
• 21:56
  grumpy today. But it wasn't until this year
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  that if that I was able to look under the hood a little bit
• 22:03
  further. And if I've got any sort of like
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  if a big bill hits the mail, I've noticed that a lot of my
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  grumpiness, not all of it, is when I'm feeling slightly tense
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  about finances. And then you look a little bit
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  further under the hood and you realize, you know who and
• 22:27
  everyone's story is different. But for me, may maybe it's
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  partially. I grew up as a missionary kid
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  with very little and my, our entire well-being was based upon
• 22:38
  the donations of, of people. I had hand me downs, everything.
• 22:45
  And, and so I had this low grade even from the, my very infancy,
• 22:51
  this low grade anxiety about provision and care and all of
• 22:55
  this stuff. So I could just say, try not to
• 23:00
  be grumpy. Or I can go deeper, deeper back
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  into my past and, or maybe even when my parents and their
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  relationship with money and their past and realize and start
• 23:11
  to learn and undo some of the fear because it's not fair to my
• 23:16
  family. So I'm actually seeing a
• 23:18
  counselor that just helping me process what's the fear that
• 23:23
  what rises up into you that causes you to be really short
• 23:27
  with your kids about cleaning their rooms, not related to
• 23:31
  their rooms, but it's actually because you got that big medical
• 23:34
  bill that showed up yesterday. How weird are humans that were
• 23:39
  that damaged by the world and the systems and the structures?
• 23:43
  So that's the genogram idea is that like there's generational
• 23:47
  brokenness that leads to humans showing up in healthy ways and
• 23:50
  unhealthy ways. And the only way to deal with
• 23:53
  the final behavior is actually to go backwards.
• 23:57
  And So what Jesus does in the cross is he's able to see
• 23:59
  through all of the pain, his own personal stuff, and eventually
• 24:05
  get to the place where he's like, father, forgive them for
• 24:08
  they have no idea the gravity of what they're doing to me.
• 24:12
  Yes. And they don't have any idea the
• 24:17
  engine of brokenness that's behind them that's causing them
• 24:20
  to do the same thing. But they don't know either.
• 24:25
  And so I had this progression, you know, I had this one, one
• 24:33
  slide that sort of shows the progression of what a journey of
• 24:40
  this stage of the forgiveness part might look like.
• 24:45
  So it, it starts with centering, centering in our pain.
• 24:49
  That's includes week one of your sermon series 2.
• 24:53
  And then eventually it starts to see through Jesus's eyes, not
• 24:57
  even our eyes, because we can't, we can't ever know the layers.
• 25:02
  We start to see that Jesus at least knows the layers.
• 25:06
  We see through his. And then once we've gotten
• 25:09
  through that journey, we might just maybe, just maybe, just
• 25:12
  maybe be able to stomach and have this thing that swells up
• 25:16
  in US and join Jesus in his mercy.
• 25:19
  So that was sort of the progression.
• 25:21
  So one of the the interesting things to me and and this nudges
• 25:24
  towards, I think some of the questions that you you said
• 25:27
  you've got. I think there's there's a way
• 25:33
  Scripture, the gospels, especially when it comes to
• 25:38
  crucifixion, a very they're they're very unimaginative.
• 25:44
  They're very just direct. Jesus said this, Jesus was
• 25:50
  crucified, Jesus was beaten. It's it's very matter of fact.
• 25:56
  And some of that's around like sensibilities around how you
• 25:59
  talked about that kind of thing. And you know, the, the horror of
• 26:02
  the cross as a, as a curse from a Jewish perspective hanging on
• 26:06
  a tree as dishonouring as the shame on display.
• 26:10
  Like we have got pictures of it that tend to reduce it down a
• 26:15
  little bit, but but it was a mixture of pain and shame and
• 26:21
  intensified suffering. Yeah.
• 26:26
  Mel Gibson's version of of The Passion of the Passion of the
• 26:29
  Christ which. Tries to break some of that.
• 26:32
  Which I, I think goes over the top with some of it in some
• 26:36
  ways. But I remember this scene in in
• 26:41
  that version distinctly. And, and Mel Gibson as a
• 26:45
  director does a couple of interesting things.
• 26:47
  Like in that scene one, he's the one that swings the hammer.
• 26:53
  When you see the hammer landing on the nails, that's his hand.
• 26:57
  In the shop. You don't see him, you just see
• 26:59
  his hand because he wanted to acknowledge his personal
• 27:03
  responsibility. His own culpability like.
• 27:05
  He's he's involved in that as we all are, like we're all like
• 27:11
  responsible for all, all the reason that that Jesus takes
• 27:15
  that step and and he has Jesus say those lines as, as, as the
• 27:22
  nails are being hammered into his wrists.
• 27:25
  And and so it's broken up with like gasps and with like the
• 27:32
  sense that the cries of pain. It's not.
• 27:36
  It's not just a. Disciple, Father, forgive them.
• 27:39
  They have no idea. It's not it's, it's a human
• 27:43
  being saying those words in the midst of intense pain.
• 27:47
  So I think sometimes we're able to reduce Jesus forgiveness down
• 27:51
  to, well, of course he could do that.
• 27:55
  Yeah. But then you Fast forward to
• 27:56
  Stephen. Yeah.
• 27:57
  And. But but even even for Jesus, in
• 27:59
  that moment, before we even get to Stephen, I think there's this
• 28:02
  the extreme pain that's been inflicted on you in that moment
• 28:07
  while still choosing a pathway of forgiveness.
• 28:10
  Yeah. And, and I think so much of that
• 28:14
  comes down to our struggle. If we're honest, all of us
• 28:17
  struggle to hold well, Jesus, humanity and his his divinity.
• 28:25
  We tend to go one way or the other.
• 28:28
  And so if in our mind we we start to move towards work.
• 28:32
  Yeah, that was easy for him. Well, that that's actually not
• 28:36
  what being human is. I think he does a really good
• 28:40
  job of exemplifying the cost of saying that and the decision of
• 28:45
  saying it in the midst of of pain and.
• 28:47
  And Steven then replicates that and does it in the same way
• 28:52
  forgiveness is, is is hard. And, and I don't know if you
• 28:56
  touched on this and Sunday, I also feel like I think that
• 29:00
  scripture is somewhat comfortable with the selfish
• 29:05
  nature of forgiveness. I think it's a little
• 29:08
  comfortable with you forgiving for you as much as the other
• 29:13
  Which. Brings us to the question from
• 29:14
  the last week. Yeah, that actually a question
• 29:18
  that came in for your first week Serie sermon.
• 29:23
  Just by way of summary, we we did our best without you to to
• 29:26
  engage it last episode, but the question, so I'll do my best to
• 29:31
  summarize. This is like really well written
• 29:33
  question that was almost a page long that it addressed multiple
• 29:37
  rebuttals and all of these different things.
• 29:39
  But someone wrote in this question, that is, when you boil
• 29:44
  it down, cited a a theology professor who wrote a book
• 29:51
  called Unpacking Forgiveness, I believe is what it was.
• 29:55
  Who makes the case in the book that you shouldn't forgive?
• 29:59
  Unless you're asked. Unless you're asked and that it,
• 30:02
  if you do, it's immoral in some way, shape or form.
• 30:06
  There's a bunch of caveats in the question in and of itself,
• 30:08
  and I'm assuming in the book itself.
• 30:10
  Also, there's even more and what we said on last week's episode
• 30:15
  that I felt like maybe they were conflating and forgiveness and
• 30:19
  reconciliation a little bit, and that was how we addressed it.
• 30:25
  But you're starting to touch on some of the similar stuff at the
• 30:30
  end of the question I wonder I unfortunately I checked it off
• 30:33
  so it'd take me a second to find it.
• 30:35
  At the end of the question it sort of says that it's not real
• 30:41
  forgiveness if it doesn't lead towards reconciliation.
• 30:45
  And so the the self help make myself feel better about myself
• 30:55
  kind of forgiveness isn't real Biblical forgiveness is what
• 30:58
  part of this book was saying and you're actually saying that may
• 31:02
  the Bible seems to hint at quite the opposite that it's quite
• 31:06
  comfortable with the the self, the freedom that is forgiveness.
• 31:13
  So so so my reason for thinking that is 1 specific passage it
• 31:20
  was. It was one I nearly assigned,
• 31:22
  but I wanted to had it in the back of my mind wanting to do a
• 31:26
  parable series at some point. And it's a parable.
• 31:29
  So and the the parable is the unforgiving servant.
• 31:35
  And, and in that story Jesus tells, and again, Jesus tells
• 31:38
  these provocative stories. He throws them up there and you
• 31:42
  have to do the deep work. But he imagines A servant that
• 31:46
  we generally take to mean, you know, a human being.
• 31:51
  And the servant has a master that we tend to take to be God
• 31:56
  and has a huge debt and goes to the master.
• 31:59
  And the master says I forgive it.
• 32:01
  Yeah, I almost jumped to that text as we and I just say I know
• 32:05
  I was, I was the topic. Yep.
• 32:09
  And and and and so the servant goes away free, forgiven, and
• 32:15
  then encounter someone who owes him a debt and demands the
• 32:19
  payment in full and and refuses forgiveness.
• 32:27
  The language is set around bookkeeping like it doesn't use
• 32:32
  the precisely those terms that we would use today, but to A, to
• 32:35
  A, to a 1st century person, they would understand like opening
• 32:39
  the books. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:42
  It seems like the result of the parable is this.
• 32:47
  This is the ending that I've come to as a conclusion for it
• 32:50
  when I've used it before. You are either a person who
• 32:54
  plays by the bookkeeping system or you're not.
• 32:59
  And you're the one that chooses if you want to keep books.
• 33:04
  Well, God's gonna is going to keep books.
• 33:07
  And if you are happy to surrender the bookkeeping, then
• 33:12
  God's happy to surrender it too. So so that that's what I mean
• 33:16
  when it. Also ties into the end of the
• 33:17
  Lord's Prayer, sure. Absolutely, Yeah.
• 33:19
  Yeah. So that that that's where I
• 33:21
  start to feel that actually Scripture is OK with a pragmatic
• 33:26
  sense of I choose forgiveness because I want forgiveness shown
• 33:32
  to me, not not in an earning sense, but in a that came first.
• 33:37
  It takes seriously what Jesus says about forgive as we, as as
• 33:42
  you have been forgiven. It takes seriously Jesus
• 33:44
  parables now again like that. That doesn't even get to all the
• 33:50
  emotional processing that has to come there.
• 33:53
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 33:54
  But but I do, I do feel like at least on the surface, Scripture
• 34:00
  recognizes that maybe, maybe choosing forgiveness is a
• 34:03
  pragmatic measure as well. Yeah.
• 34:07
  Yeah. And I think that there's some
• 34:09
  interesting that probably way too long for this conversation,
• 34:12
  some theological like hair splitting that we could do
• 34:17
  around some of that. But.
• 34:20
  Yeah. And and what I would say in that
• 34:22
  story is both people ask for forgiveness.
• 34:25
  So maybe, maybe that's the caveat.
• 34:27
  Like the the the first servant goes to the master and says he
• 34:31
  actually doesn't ask for forgiveness.
• 34:32
  Does he actually ask give me time to repay the debt?
• 34:35
  Yeah, I'll pay it all back. But he does at least show an
• 34:38
  inclination to restore the relationship, as does the other
• 34:43
  servant in the in the follow up conversation.
• 34:46
  So there is at least a recognition of debt.
• 34:50
  Yeah. So here's the interesting piece
• 34:52
  of that that that does the the theological hair splitting
• 34:56
  conversation that starts which again, I don't know if we have
• 34:59
  time for and this other. Question Why do we not have time
• 35:02
  for theological hair splitting? Oh.
• 35:04
  Man, well, we just have another question.
• 35:06
  That's a doozy. Is the idea that it that hints
• 35:12
  at that forgiveness is could sound like a don't worry about
• 35:20
  it, yeah. Totally.
• 35:23
  Not an actual justice will be done.
• 35:26
  And I said pretty unequivocally on Sunday, part of the reason
• 35:30
  why Jesus can also get away with saying, Father, forgive them for
• 35:34
  they know not what they're doing is that in, in the cross in and
• 35:37
  of itself, justice is served against all of the evil in the,
• 35:42
  in the destruction of the world. And so justice will be done.
• 35:46
  And I even I, I said part of the reason we can forgive is because
• 35:51
  we know that there will be no injustice when all of the books
• 35:56
  are like the cross actually has a way of dealing with injustice
• 36:01
  fully and finally without just sweeping it under the rug and
• 36:04
  saying, don't worry about it anymore.
• 36:06
  And so that's where it gets theologically hair splitting,
• 36:09
  because you start to get into theories of atonement.
• 36:11
  You start to have to like, say, well, what happens to the cross?
• 36:14
  And like, is it justice or is a God saying yeah, don't worry
• 36:17
  about it anymore? And if you're still at a point
• 36:19
  where you want to actively see that justice at work upon the
• 36:23
  person themselves, well, not. And not just at the cross.
• 36:26
  Yeah. But either way, the question is,
• 36:29
  does the cross actually execute justice against the person that
• 36:33
  harmed you? Yes.
• 36:35
  Even if they end up in heaven. Quote UN quote like.
• 36:37
  As it does for us. Yes, exactly.
• 36:40
  And so the, the I think that that's the weird, the hair
• 36:43
  splitting part that leads us into a whole conversation about
• 36:47
  multiple theories of atonement, the various models, how some of
• 36:50
  them are heavier on justice. Some of them feel like the cross
• 36:54
  is almost in necessary because it's just a means to get to
• 36:57
  resurrection. On and on and on it goes.
• 37:02
  Now that we've thrown that bombshell into the conversation
• 37:05
  and then not addressing it, I don't know.
• 37:09
  But yeah, just another piece of evidence that we don't actually
• 37:11
  know what we're doing. Or could or and could never even
• 37:16
  Plumb the depths of some of these things on a show like
• 37:18
  this. But.
• 37:19
  So yeah, we have another question.
• 37:21
  We do. You ready for it?
• 37:23
  I more or less. OK, you want to read it?
• 37:26
  I sure, yeah. So this is one of the things I
• 37:32
  noticed is some of the things I said on Sunday were really hard
• 37:37
  to hear for some folks who are, have been harmed and are are
• 37:46
  continually being harmed in some way, shape or form.
• 37:50
  And, and it was a lot of it was centered around this idea of
• 37:53
  appealing towards to ignorance as a, as a justification for
• 37:57
  forgiveness. Hey guys, I have a question
• 38:01
  about Aaron's sermon on anger and forgiveness from this week.
• 38:04
  Do you How do you forgive someone such as a family member
• 38:08
  who continues to be cruel, bully and manipulate?
• 38:11
  In other words, those who hurtful hurt, whose hurtful
• 38:14
  actions are not only in the past but ongoing?
• 38:18
  I love the idea of seeing beyond our wounds to seeing the person.
• 38:23
  But how can one continue to be in a relate in relation with
• 38:28
  another person who persists in this way?
• 38:31
  Perhaps this question is about the relationship of boundaries
• 38:35
  and for then more than forgiveness.
• 38:37
  Aaron spoke about how persons causing harm does not know what
• 38:41
  they're doing and at the end of the message he acknowledged that
• 38:44
  there are people who do know what they're doing, but then
• 38:48
  also stood by a statement and and said they still don't know
• 38:53
  what they're doing. I'm paraphrasing.
• 38:55
  I'm having a hard time with that idea specifically, which I've
• 38:59
  heard from a couple different people.
• 39:01
  Some of them felt like there was a freedom in that idea and some
• 39:04
  of them felt like I don't even know if I can believe you.
• 39:08
  And I get that. There are definitely people who
• 39:10
  know what they are doing and absolutely know the ripple
• 39:14
  effects that they are the of the harm that they will cause and
• 39:18
  enjoy it. Can you guys say more?
• 39:22
  How can forgiveness of such a person ever be more than
• 39:25
  condoning their actions? One last question, if God is
• 39:28
  concerned with justice, then what does justice look like for
• 39:33
  more run-of-the-mill person causing harm?
• 39:36
  Aaron spoke about these huge like nation state crimes and all
• 39:42
  this stuff. So there's a couple questions in
• 39:45
  here. Let's see if I can narrow it
• 39:47
  down to. There's a good question.
• 39:49
  There's some good. Very good questions.
• 39:53
  And I've had multiple conversations very much in the
• 39:56
  same line, so I'll maybe work backwards.
• 40:01
  What about the light quest? Light ones?
• 40:03
  I I had a conversation on Monday with someone who said, well,
• 40:08
  what about like, really stupid little harms, Like, you know,
• 40:13
  you look fat in that dress. Yeah.
• 40:15
  You know, this was the sort of hypothetical scenario that we I
• 40:19
  had a conversation about. And is, does that really require
• 40:24
  justice? Can't you just be like, how
• 40:26
  don't like they they come to you, They say, I'm really sorry
• 40:29
  and you say don't worry about it.
• 40:31
  And my statement, what my my theory on that is, I don't know
• 40:37
  if this is fully true or I don't know why I'd have to do more
• 40:40
  thinking on it, but I think that even that statement does more
• 40:44
  harm than what you're forgiving them for psychologically,
• 40:49
  subconsciously and emotionally. If if you think you're not
• 40:53
  beautiful and then someone else says something about your
• 40:55
  appearance or someone looks at you funny, you go back to that
• 40:59
  statement. You already forgave the person
• 41:01
  you you too are reconciled. You're good as client, happy as
• 41:04
  clams whatever, moving on in relationship.
• 41:07
  And yet the thing they said to you in a in a moment of
• 41:10
  stupidity or let it slide or whatever through their lips,
• 41:14
  it's still shaping the way you see yourself, the way you see
• 41:18
  other people look at you. And and so you're not even
• 41:21
  forgiving all of their crime. Whoever came up with the phrase
• 41:25
  sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt
• 41:28
  me was a moron. A total moron.
• 41:31
  Words might be like sticks and stones can break bones, but like
• 41:36
  words can like wreck worlds and generational worlds.
• 41:41
  So even the most how like stupid, ignorant I, I, I almost
• 41:45
  told the story on Sunday about my, my relationship with my
• 41:49
  daughter and how I just put my foot in my mouth and I had no
• 41:55
  idea that I caused the harm. So a brief version of that is
• 41:59
  that she took her freshman year of high school off of choir and
• 42:05
  the school had a policy that if you wanted to be an Advanced
• 42:08
  Placement choir, you had to. No freshman gets into it.
• 42:12
  You have to do the first level choir before you're allowed to
• 42:15
  do second level choir. She did.
• 42:17
  First semester she skipped it and then she regretted it.
• 42:20
  And then she had to go through the Crucible of going through
• 42:24
  low level choir before she could get to the higher choir.
• 42:27
  And so then she was one of the few sophomore in the low level
• 42:31
  choir. And so I went to her concert and
• 42:34
  she'd been talking all semester long.
• 42:36
  I like, it's not a very good choir.
• 42:38
  It's not a very good choir, not a very good choir.
• 42:40
  And like she's joking about it constantly with me.
• 42:43
  I went to her first choir concert and I was like, oh, I
• 42:46
  loved this song. I love this song.
• 42:47
  I talked a bunch about the Advanced Placement choir and
• 42:51
  then I made and I said, oh, I love the song you guys did this
• 42:54
  way, this way, some positive comments.
• 42:56
  And then I said, oh, there was that one person in your choir
• 42:59
  that was like singing at the top of their lungs, almost like not
• 43:01
  trying to blend it all. And we, I, I kind of chuckled
• 43:05
  about it. Now.
• 43:05
  She'd been teasing her choir all semester.
• 43:10
  That comment about she was a part of something, something
• 43:13
  that was less from her me professional musician dad
• 43:17
  wrecked her and she was so hurt that and she didn't.
• 43:23
  She had no control of the thing I critiqued and she was so hurt
• 43:29
  and I didn't know. She didn't tell me.
• 43:31
  It wasn't until later that my wife told me how hurtful it was
• 43:34
  and when I was like, Oh my goodness.
• 43:36
  When I. And so back to your light.
• 43:40
  Like, talk about ignorant harm. It still was a huge problem.
• 43:47
  It damaged her relationship with her dad and I didn't even know
• 43:50
  about it. When I used to teach students
• 43:53
  when I was a youth pastor on the power of words and things that
• 43:57
  you said, I did this illustration where I would have
• 44:02
  one of them come up and they'd have a sledgehammer and like a
• 44:07
  clay, a big clay pot that I bought from like Home Depot or
• 44:10
  something. And they were just allowed to
• 44:12
  just like hammer the, the, the pot as hard as they could just
• 44:17
  just give it one just great like shot.
• 44:20
  And this thing would just shatter into pieces and, and,
• 44:24
  and then I'd say to them, OK, now you have 10 seconds to put
• 44:27
  it back together. And they'd scramble around for
• 44:31
  like their 10 seconds just desperately trying to collect as
• 44:34
  many pieces as it could. And of course, didn't get close
• 44:37
  to like, I mean, it couldn't. I mean, it was just.
• 44:39
  It couldn't even collect all the pieces.
• 44:41
  Yeah. And and it and it was just to
• 44:43
  them an illustration of like the one thing, the one moment can
• 44:47
  actually take a lifetime to pull back together.
• 44:50
  Yeah, even just a slip of the tongue.
• 44:52
  Yeah, me trying to like join my daughter in in sort of fun
• 44:56
  bantering conversation turned into a deep wound so.
• 45:00
  I I think that like that, that's actually where Jesus goes in
• 45:04
  that Matthew 5 passage. The words he, it's really
• 45:07
  interesting, like the, the things that he, he talks about
• 45:10
  being angry. He talks about using a word like
• 45:13
  Raqqa, like stupid, and then another word that's like more
• 45:17
  moral, like, you know, you're morally like unacceptable.
• 45:23
  There's not most of the scholarship on it would say
• 45:25
  there's not really a graduation on the words of of they they're
• 45:30
  all treated pretty much the same.
• 45:31
  But there is a graduation on the punishments and it actually it,
• 45:36
  it seems Jesus is trying to say, and any of these could be the
• 45:39
  result of the contempt behind those words that kind of
• 45:43
  judgment. So so I so I think yes, to say
• 45:48
  to say, I would never want to diminish the things that are
• 45:52
  said. I think that the emotion or
• 45:55
  response is totally justified. Yeah.
• 45:58
  So I think the the justice thing for even run-of-the-mill harms.
• 46:06
  Jesus suggests it could be extreme.
• 46:08
  Well, I think Jesus does, and I think that it's not, it is still
• 46:13
  a matter of justice. Yeah.
• 46:16
  It's not something you can that you, you can, you can just say,
• 46:20
  you know what, I know you didn't mean to, which is what my dad or
• 46:23
  did. I went to her.
• 46:24
  I said, you know what? I'm sorry.
• 46:25
  She said, you know what, dad, I know you love me and I know that
• 46:29
  that's that's why I didn't tell you is like, I know you didn't
• 46:32
  mean to and all and all this stuff.
• 46:34
  And I was like, OK, great. But I was, I, I was devastated
• 46:40
  that I'd even accidentally done it.
• 46:42
  So even though I had the forgiveness thing, it's still
• 46:44
  big, even the run-of-the-mill stuff.
• 46:46
  So that's the end question. The first question was a little
• 46:50
  bit more about this ongoing how do you forgive and still remain
• 46:55
  in relationship with with someone who's ongoingly causing
• 46:59
  harm? And I think you should come this
• 47:02
  coming Sunday to talk about reconciliation, not forgiveness,
• 47:06
  because I think that that's actually where the rubber meets
• 47:09
  the road is you're asking more, how do I stay in relationship
• 47:16
  with an ongoing perpetrator of harm?
• 47:18
  That's a little bit more of a reconciliation issue.
• 47:21
  Than. Just a forgiveness issue, No,
• 47:23
  Forgiveness is always a part of reconciliation, but
• 47:28
  reconciliation isn't always a part of forgiveness.
• 47:32
  I, I think, I think it, I think, yes, I agree.
• 47:36
  I think one of the things we'll wrestle with on on Sunday is
• 47:40
  whether reconciliation is possible when one side can't
• 47:46
  admit the wrong done. Yeah.
• 47:50
  You know, actually one of the the interesting stories I was
• 47:53
  reading this week was in South Africa with some of the the
• 47:58
  reconciliation process there after 1994.
• 48:01
  Yeah. And.
• 48:04
  Don't give too much away. Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm teasing.
• 48:06
  By the way, we're like, we're like in a war zone for you.
• 48:10
  There's like Wasps crying over our heads non-stop.
• 48:13
  Playing with dangers. Yeah, sorry.
• 48:15
  So, so, so one of the things that was required for
• 48:19
  reconciliation was public confession.
• 48:21
  Yeah. So you could be forgiven for the
• 48:23
  most heinous crimes. Yeah, and you didn't even have
• 48:26
  to feel remorse. You just had to say what you
• 48:28
  did. What you'd done?
• 48:30
  One of the most controversial parts of that whole thing,
• 48:33
  right? Yeah, and and and.
• 48:35
  But it had to be public. The victims were invited and it
• 48:39
  was recorded and televised nationally.
• 48:43
  And if you didn't confess and were found out later, well then.
• 48:47
  No forgiveness. Yeah, so, so it's just
• 48:49
  fascinating like that. That for some people has been
• 48:52
  like a a requirement. Again goes back to the tension
• 48:55
  between do you have to forgive if the other person doesn't
• 49:01
  doesn't ask the the the conversation there.
• 49:04
  Is it even moral? Yeah.
• 49:05
  The conversation there that that really I think is, is, is is a
• 49:10
  theological conundrum, is if we're expected to forgive
• 49:15
  without the other person asking, does God expect something of us
• 49:20
  that he doesn't expect of himself if God's forgiveness
• 49:25
  requires. Repentance.
• 49:27
  Repentance. Confession.
• 49:29
  Which is where? Go back to last week's question.
• 49:31
  That's exactly what this theologian says does.
• 49:34
  Does does it require Yeah, is is he now saying to us do something
• 49:39
  I don't do again like. That literally that exact line
• 49:43
  was in the question. And so and I still think that's
• 49:47
  conflating reconciliation and forgiveness.
• 49:50
  Potentially. I because clearly because of the
• 49:53
  text I preached Sunday, Jesus has a some measure of
• 49:57
  forgiveness that doesn't have quote UN quote salvific power.
• 50:02
  This the forgiveness Jesus offers on the cross doesn't mean
• 50:06
  necessarily like universal restoration of human
• 50:10
  relationship with God. He just says.
• 50:13
  As does Steven and and Stevens doesn't either.
• 50:15
  No. But they but.
• 50:17
  What? But they forgive anyway, which
• 50:19
  means there is a kind of forgiveness that not only
• 50:22
  doesn't justify the harm and doesn't have any relationship
• 50:28
  restoring power other than I'm willing to, yeah.
• 50:32
  Yeah, I forgive them. You should do.
• 50:34
  So like I said, it still goes back to a more of a conversation
• 50:39
  around reconciliation. So maybe salvation as we
• 50:43
  classically think of it, salvation is actually when
• 50:46
  restoration or in the the Greek concept of justification or when
• 50:53
  that happens is when there's restoration, when there's
• 50:56
  admission of brokenness, admission of finitude, admission
• 51:00
  of faults, and then mixed with the forgiveness that was already
• 51:05
  extended by Jesus at the cross. So that's my best attempt at
• 51:10
  that first part of the question. I I think that if you're in an
• 51:14
  ongoing relationship with someone who is actively harming,
• 51:18
  detrimental, painful, there's, there's other things going on,
• 51:24
  but what you're asking is actually more how can I be in
• 51:28
  continue relationship which demands reconciliation stuff.
• 51:32
  I would say if you are in a toxic relationship like that, I
• 51:36
  also am comfortable with saying sometimes the line is drawn and
• 51:44
  you say until you're willing to do dot dot dot then I'm breaking
• 51:50
  off contact. Absolutely I.
• 51:52
  I I think. That and that can still be from
• 51:54
  a place of forgiveness. Totally.
• 51:56
  Yeah, Yeah, yeah. I, I think, I think I'm always
• 52:01
  intrigued by our sense of obligation to keep the the
• 52:07
  channel open and make forgiveness harder than our
• 52:14
  willingness to, to break off the communication with the potential
• 52:18
  that forgiveness is easier. And I understand why.
• 52:21
  Yeah, yeah. That's.
• 52:22
  A great We want relationships to continue.
• 52:24
  We want to be hopeful people or their family members in this
• 52:27
  question like they we we want we want to stay connected to people
• 52:33
  with the hope that the thing could turn around.
• 52:35
  But in actual fact, when we do that, we make forgiveness a much
• 52:38
  more difficult thing again. Yeah, like forgiveness is a
• 52:42
  prerequisite to everything being awesome.
• 52:44
  Yeah, like that's actually reconciliation is that is so.
• 52:50
  And what you're saying is actually maybe you remove
• 52:53
  yourself and your your family from the situation and forgive
• 52:56
  them. But again.
• 52:57
  But don't talk to them until other things are.
• 53:00
  Again, complex like what if it's a parent who's sick?
• 53:02
  What if it's someone who's distant to you or child that's.
• 53:07
  Dependent on you or whatever. Dependent on you physically, you
• 53:12
  know what were we're doing the best we can to cover every
• 53:16
  situation. But I, I think my big
• 53:21
  encouragement would actually be to make it a continual matter of
• 53:26
  prayer and actually to, to begin with the anger element and then
• 53:32
  in forgiveness to be comfortable saying to God right now, I'm
• 53:36
  not, I don't want to forgive and I don't even know how to
• 53:39
  forgive, but I am willing to ask you to help me move to
• 53:43
  forgiveness. One, one of the things that we,
• 53:45
  we forget in this is that we're not doing this by ourselves.
• 53:50
  We're doing this with, in companionship with God.
• 53:56
  Stephen can only do what he does because he has this moment where
• 53:59
  he looks up and he sees the father waiting for him.
• 54:05
  He, he's in the midst of a relationship with God that's so
• 54:09
  close. The, the, the, the, the, the
• 54:13
  physical experience feels distant to him in comparison to
• 54:16
  that, that spiritual relationship.
• 54:18
  So, so I think if you're trying to process forgiveness and that
• 54:23
  hasn't been a conversation between you and God, and I don't
• 54:26
  know from the question, you know, it could be a regular
• 54:29
  conversation, but but make it 1 and recognize that that might
• 54:34
  take time. Like the God God isn't in a
• 54:38
  rush. And there's a huge difference
• 54:40
  between actively pursuing the possibility of forgiveness with
• 54:45
  God in prayer and and simply refusing it.
• 54:50
  Yeah, and I so so like there's this weird tension about being a
• 54:55
  follower of Jesus that I think you're trying to like
• 54:57
  articulate, which is that for sort of like pastorally.
• 55:03
  And I think Jesus would say like potentially, depending on the
• 55:08
  situation, if you are in danger, get out, protect yourself,
• 55:13
  protect your kids, protect your family.
• 55:15
  The. Person might have to go to jail.
• 55:16
  They might have to go to jail. Like Jesus forgives David and
• 55:20
  his entire family is wrecked forever.
• 55:23
  Like forgiveness does not mean there aren't ramifications.
• 55:26
  Ramifications can even be massive jail, never talk to the
• 55:31
  person again, and still forgiveness is still possible in
• 55:34
  spite of all of those ramifications.
• 55:36
  So please hear us there. There are some scenarios where
• 55:42
  because of the work of God in your heart, I think that the
• 55:46
  Spirit can invite someone to stay in certain levels of of
• 55:51
  heavy relationship and empower them by his spirit to have a
• 55:58
  similar heart that he has like Jesus is getting killed and he
• 56:03
  stays in relationship. He he pursues relationship with
• 56:07
  his murderers. And then we see examples of some
• 56:11
  Saints, because of the work of spirit in their life, actually
• 56:16
  going to places where there's their physical selves are in in
• 56:19
  potentially going to be harmed and by God's grace, they they
• 56:24
  find it in themselves to say, you know, I sign up to
• 56:27
  demonstrate the love of God, even at the risk of my own self.
• 56:32
  I don't think you should make that decision lightly.
• 56:34
  In fact, I don't even know if you should make that decision to
• 56:37
  stay in a harmful relationship without some serious counsel and
• 56:42
  wisdom from a counselor or even a law official.
• 56:47
  I don't know what it is, But maybe, just maybe they're like,
• 56:49
  who knows? Like, I can't make that.
• 56:51
  I think that's to Alex's point. You have to do this in
• 56:54
  relationship with Jesus. But I don't think Jesus would
• 56:57
  condemn you for leaving. And if he invites you into it,
• 57:01
  maybe there's some sort of measure of intensity that he's
• 57:05
  inviting you to struggle through in order to demonstrate the love
• 57:09
  of God. Yeah.
• 57:10
  I I think. I mean, I don't even know if I
• 57:13
  like what I just said. Yeah, I and I get that.
• 57:15
  I get the attention because because, you know, our goal is
• 57:18
  for people to be safe, protected.
• 57:24
  It's one of the questions I've always wrestled with, like the
• 57:26
  tension between my wanting everyone to be safe and Jesus,
• 57:30
  wanting them to be alive. And that isn't always the same
• 57:33
  thing. I, I, I'm going to say one
• 57:40
  thing. That's another teaser for
• 57:41
  Sunday. Sunday's going to be good.
• 57:44
  Yeah, yeah. My suspicion is forgiveness and
• 57:49
  reconciliation are always unfair, but they don't have to
• 57:54
  be unwise. Like like.
• 57:57
  Between humans. Yes, yeah, I, I think, I think
• 58:00
  it's always unfair. I think you're, you're, you're
• 58:05
  you're giving up. Oh man, we're already almost at
• 58:10
  an hour. You can't be saying statements
• 58:12
  like that. I want to ask questions.
• 58:14
  I have so many questions. So I think next week, I think
• 58:17
  grace is categorically unfair and and forgiveness is grace.
• 58:23
  Depending on what atonement is. No, no, I still think it's
• 58:27
  unfair in terms of the interpersonal relationship.
• 58:30
  It's unfair. It's it's, it's been willing to
• 58:32
  bring in a third party that theoretically could make it
• 58:37
  fair. That's what I mean.
• 58:39
  I feel that's why I said at the end of my message that apart
• 58:45
  from the cross, forgiveness may be unwise, even immoral.
• 58:50
  And then I paused there and I said, without Jesus, I do not
• 58:55
  recommend forgiveness. Maybe.
• 58:59
  And I left it there. And I don't even know how I feel
• 59:01
  about that. But through the cross it's
• 59:04
  possible because justice and mercy meet.
• 59:09
  So anyway I. Still think it's?
• 59:11
  Unfair. Yeah, yeah.
• 59:12
  I mean like, but I I think it's unfair.
• 59:16
  So so let me let me if. Justice is actually fully served
• 59:20
  and in in eternity we all look back on all of the pain and
• 59:23
  we're like Jesus dealt with it all.
• 59:25
  Which, which you don't see in this like, like, I think what
• 59:28
  the reason I say it like that isn't, isn't really about
• 59:30
  whether it's in the end unfair on a cosmic level or an
• 59:38
  interpersonal level. I I really say on a pastoral
• 59:42
  level of if you're going into forgiveness, hoping one day
• 59:45
  forgiving feels fair. Yeah, it will never feel fair.
• 59:49
  Agreed. You know, it will never feel
• 59:51
  like this is equal. We can call it quits.
• 59:55
  That's what we see on a interpersonal level, and A and
• 59:59
  and and A and a macro level. Nations never feel fair.
• 1:00:05
  Like you still can't go to Ireland and talk about the
• 1:00:09
  relationship between monarchy and Republic, the relationship
• 1:00:13
  between North and South, the relationship between Catholicism
• 1:00:17
  and Protestantism and and have it feel fair.
• 1:00:21
  You still can't go to Rwanda and have it feel fair.
• 1:00:25
  You still can't go to South Africa and have it feel fair.
• 1:00:28
  You still can't talk about civil rights and have it feel fair in
• 1:00:31
  the end. It always feels like someone at
• 1:00:34
  some point is saying I'm choosing for this not to feel
• 1:00:36
  fair. Yes, I I do think that there is
• 1:00:39
  like it's from an emotional standpoint that every act of
• 1:00:43
  genuine forgiveness is deciding to absorb wrong upon yourself.
• 1:00:50
  Now in the like, again, very metaphysical field, theoretical
• 1:00:55
  level of like theology, I do think that maybe there's like at
• 1:01:01
  least I hope so, because this is kind of what I preached on
• 1:01:02
  something. There is a a place where you're
• 1:01:06
  saying part of the reason I can let go of justice is because I
• 1:01:11
  think that Jesus will ultimately weigh the scales correctly and
• 1:01:15
  make all things right. Yes, which is, which is actually
• 1:01:20
  the definition of that word in Greek that like the
• 1:01:24
  justification language around salvation.
• 1:01:27
  It's less. It's more about him setting the
• 1:01:30
  world a right, weighing all the scales, all of the players, and
• 1:01:36
  at the end all the chips fall and he's like dealt with it.
• 1:01:41
  That's what some of the things happen.
• 1:01:46
  Again I my push back is a little bit as I feel some of the
• 1:01:49
  teaching is like and the chips never fall.
• 1:01:52
  Even in eternity. Well, I think that's what it is
• 1:01:55
  to not live by the books. Not live by the books.
• 1:01:59
  I mean, that's the. That's I know, which is why I
• 1:02:01
  called it out when you said that I think I think that the
• 1:02:06
  statement I the hint I was making this in my message was
• 1:02:09
  that Jesus does still live by the books and he absorbs all of
• 1:02:14
  the debt upon himself. Therefore, books cleared.
• 1:02:18
  See. What I'm saying, so this is
• 1:02:20
  where atonement theory becomes such a more like emotionally
• 1:02:24
  charged issue. Like let's talk about atonement
• 1:02:27
  series. Feels like who cares until you
• 1:02:30
  get into the very weeds and the splitting of hairs.
• 1:02:33
  You're like, no, this actually really, really matters.
• 1:02:36
  Does Jesus ever sweep any harm under the rug and say don't
• 1:02:40
  worry about it? Or does he actually come like
• 1:02:45
  pay properly for every wound that's ever been done in human
• 1:02:50
  history? And I tend to think with a a
• 1:02:55
  list of different theories of atonement, I think he pays for
• 1:02:58
  it all ultimately. And that we will look back in,
• 1:03:02
  in, in history past and say, I am fully, 100% satisfied with
• 1:03:08
  the with how Jesus dealt with the way I was harmed and with
• 1:03:12
  how Jesus dealt with how I harmed others.
• 1:03:14
  Man, we got to pick up that argument next week.
• 1:03:16
  We didn't even get. To the rest of the question.
• 1:03:18
  Oh, we didn't. Well, we shouldn't.
• 1:03:20
  Do that real quick. I think we did, but we didn't do
• 1:03:22
  it in the context of the question.
• 1:03:24
  The the third question in this was about the whole ignorance
• 1:03:30
  thing. What they do know.
• 1:03:31
  Yeah, they did know. The statement is Aaron spoke
• 1:03:35
  about this thing, a message. He acknowledged that there are
• 1:03:38
  people who do not know what they're doing, but they also
• 1:03:40
  don't know what they're doing. I'm paraphrasing.
• 1:03:43
  I I'm having a hard time with this.
• 1:03:45
  There's definitely people who know what they're doing it
• 1:03:48
  absolutely know the ripple effects.
• 1:03:49
  They like, like they're trying to do generational harm, I guess
• 1:03:52
  maybe and they enjoy it. Can you can you guys say more?
• 1:03:57
  How can forgiveness of such a person ever be not be condoning
• 1:04:01
  them? And I think what I was saying
• 1:04:03
  before is they, and after I put up the slide, the slide I put up
• 1:04:09
  on Sunday said this, it said, what if they do know?
• 1:04:21
  Where did I, where did I put the slide?
• 1:04:25
  What if they do know and they were just trying to be mean?
• 1:04:28
  What if they're just cruel? And I said, I still don't think
• 1:04:31
  they know all of it. Even if they're trying to create
• 1:04:35
  generational scene. And I said it this way on
• 1:04:37
  Sunday, like even if they stayed up for six months creatively
• 1:04:41
  designing the way to harm you and then executed the plan to
• 1:04:46
  the T, they can't know how bad your pain is.
• 1:04:52
  They can't know. They can't experience your pain
• 1:04:57
  the way you experience it. And I don't think that what I'm
• 1:05:01
  doing is lessening what they did.
• 1:05:02
  Actually, I'm saying what they did is worse than they think.
• 1:05:07
  Even if they're trying to be bad, what they did is far.
• 1:05:11
  Your pain is far higher than what they tried to cause you,
• 1:05:17
  and the thing you're forgiving them of is bigger and and more
• 1:05:21
  painful to you than even they intended to create.
• 1:05:25
  So they don't know that part, and they don't know the weird
• 1:05:30
  mishmash of destruction that is their own depravity that's
• 1:05:37
  causing them to want to cause you that pain.
• 1:05:40
  That's what I mean is like 1 human harming another human is a
• 1:05:44
  never an isolated system. It's always bigger and more
• 1:05:50
  generational. Generation, past generation,
• 1:05:53
  future stuff. I don't think that diminishes it
• 1:05:58
  at all. In fact, it's way worse.
• 1:06:00
  Well, I'm trying to remember, did you talk about this from the
• 1:06:03
  the context of the passage is to me interesting in answering this
• 1:06:07
  question. Like the the soldiers that Jesus
• 1:06:10
  says they don't know what they do.
• 1:06:12
  Well, they did. I mean, they absolutely knew
• 1:06:16
  they were swinging a hammer. They.
• 1:06:17
  Absolutely knew. Yep.
• 1:06:19
  And I said that on Sunday, yeah. They were crucifying someone.
• 1:06:21
  And then the religious leaders that led to this death, they
• 1:06:25
  know that they they know that they're trying to get rid of
• 1:06:28
  this religiously to toxic in their opinion personality.
• 1:06:33
  They're trying to protect God's reputation, God's fame, their
• 1:06:37
  power at. The same time they are.
• 1:06:40
  They have no idea they're murdering the creator of the
• 1:06:42
  universe. They don't know the depth of it.
• 1:06:44
  They don't know the ripple effects that led to their fear.
• 1:06:47
  They don't know their the ignorance of how they read the
• 1:06:50
  scriptures that didn't help them understand that this was the
• 1:06:53
  creator of the universe. They don't know.
• 1:06:56
  They don't know the actually in Jesus context, not in any of
• 1:07:00
  ours, but they don't know that this is going to lead to their
• 1:07:04
  potential salvation. Like there is no human harm
• 1:07:08
  committed to another human that could possibly be conscious of
• 1:07:12
  all of the ramifications of it. Yeah, so that's what I meant by
• 1:07:17
  their ignorance. So to get into the specific of
• 1:07:19
  the question, I don't know that to forgive them you have to let
• 1:07:23
  them know that. No.
• 1:07:25
  So I don't, I don't know, you have to give them that sense of
• 1:07:27
  this is OK. And I don't think we could ever,
• 1:07:30
  which is why I'm saying forgiveness.
• 1:07:34
  I was actually calling back to your sermon the previous week.
• 1:07:37
  It's like you're not even creative enough to come up with
• 1:07:41
  a proper punishment. Like you're the scenario you
• 1:07:44
  just told one daughter fighting with the other daughter and they
• 1:07:47
  come tell you all the things they want to do to your their
• 1:07:50
  sibling to cause them pain to to to justify whatever it is they
• 1:07:56
  aren't capable of coming up with the creative enough ideas to
• 1:08:01
  actually account for the issue. So to give justice to God is
• 1:08:06
  actually to say they have no idea what they're doing.
• 1:08:10
  So I'm still going to trust the scepter of justice into God's
• 1:08:13
  hand because he can see all of that and know the the massive
• 1:08:20
  wave of brokenness that led to them to do it.
• 1:08:22
  Know the massive wave of brokenness that what they did
• 1:08:25
  caused beyond it, and weigh it all out.
• 1:08:28
  Figure it all out and figure out how the cross can deal with all
• 1:08:31
  of. It.
• 1:08:33
  So there you go. I get that that's tense, and
• 1:08:36
  even the idea emotionally of allowing your perpetrator the
• 1:08:42
  out of ignorance feels so uncomfortable.
• 1:08:46
  I, I'm not, and that's not what my intention was on Sunday, and
• 1:08:50
  I'm sorry for that, if that's what you think I was trying to
• 1:08:53
  do. I just think, I don't think I'm
• 1:08:55
  giving them an out. I think that their pain, that
• 1:08:58
  the pain that they caused you, is worse than they know and
• 1:09:02
  worse than even you know. So I think one of the things
• 1:09:05
  that that I think I would want people to know pastorally is
• 1:09:10
  that the reason for talking about forgiveness is eventually
• 1:09:18
  the dream of reconciled relationships, but at this point
• 1:09:22
  is actually for the person doing the forgiving.
• 1:09:26
  Like, yes, qualitatively, if you can live a life forgiving, your
• 1:09:35
  life will be better. Like this is like the the whole
• 1:09:38
  like Andy Stanley idea of like it.
• 1:09:42
  It gives you a better life and it makes you better at life.
• 1:09:44
  Like actually practicing forgiveness is good for you, not
• 1:09:48
  easy for you, but but will will make a huge difference in your
• 1:09:53
  life. I think I told the story of my
• 1:09:55
  grandma who really struggled with forgiveness and I just the
• 1:09:58
  physical toll holding that took upon her, talked about myself
• 1:10:04
  nearly ripping the wheel off this Transit van, driving kids
• 1:10:08
  down to, to, to Tennessee. Like just just the toxicity like
• 1:10:13
  to, to, to, to speak that out to God in anger and give it to him
• 1:10:18
  to, to in the end, root for forgiveness for the person who's
• 1:10:23
  doing it. It's like a confessional moment.
• 1:10:27
  It takes all of the yuck out of you and it actually just gets it
• 1:10:30
  out. Yeah, it's, it detoxes you, and
• 1:10:34
  there still may not be reconciliation, but at least it
• 1:10:37
  allows the forgiver to move on with life.
• 1:10:41
  Genuinely. Yeah.
• 1:10:43
  There's a famous and. I think part of the part of the
• 1:10:47
  reason that's true and IA 100% agree with that Alex just said
• 1:10:51
  part of the reason that's true is holding the grudge and not
• 1:10:56
  forgiving will never be satisfying.
• 1:10:58
  No, because because of what I just said earlier, you couldn't
• 1:11:03
  possibly come up with a punishment big enough to make
• 1:11:08
  you feel satisfied. Which is why, interestingly, a
• 1:11:12
  lot of person people who in anger murder someone are not
• 1:11:16
  satisfied by the fact that they murdered them.
• 1:11:19
  Like you could kill your perpetrator and you won't be
• 1:11:23
  satisfied because the crime they committed is bigger than their
• 1:11:27
  life and your life and every life.
• 1:11:31
  So, so to hold on to it is it's like it's, it's too big for a
• 1:11:38
  human to his stomach. This is this legendary Max
• 1:11:41
  Lucado quote that has reverberated round the into
• 1:11:47
  space forever. Forgiveness is unlocking the
• 1:11:49
  door to set someone free and realizing that you were the
• 1:11:53
  prisoner. Yeah.
• 1:11:58
  Like, like it's, it's actually primarily releases you from
• 1:12:01
  something. Yeah, before it releases the
• 1:12:04
  other person from something. Absolutely.
• 1:12:06
  You become a freer soul. And it's a prerequisite to
• 1:12:08
  reconciliation, totally. But it has massive benefits even
• 1:12:13
  if reconciliation isn't possible.
• 1:12:16
  We went an hour and 12 minutes. Sorry, everyone.
• 1:12:21
  I love these really good questions.
• 1:12:24
  These questions are like, yeah, deep, well thought out.
• 1:12:27
  We went an hour and 12 minutes with 0 banter.
• 1:12:30
  We didn't talk nonsense at all. Other than your.
• 1:12:34
  Suntan things. Yeah.
• 1:12:37
  All right. Love you all.
• 1:12:39
  Thanks for tuning in. Bye.