Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Interview with Amanda Winther and Matt Swartz on living remotely, taking to the winds, and doing good as they go.

Transcript

Interview with Amanda Winther and Matt Swartz on living remotely, taking to the winds, and doing good as they go. · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and I am here with two
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: wonderful human beings. I am here with Amanda Winter and
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Matt Swartz. And Matt is our senior editor for Expedition Portal,
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and it is so great to have both of you
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: on the podcast today. Thanks for being here.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having us.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: It's exciting to be here too.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. There are some fun things for us to
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: talk about today because you two lived on the road
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: full time for about three years and you've also traveled extensively.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: I also want to talk about your paragliding passion, and
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: we'll talk a little bit about photography and leave no
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Trace and some of the other things that you guys
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: have learned as travelers. So before we get started, this
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: episode is made possible in part by red Arc Electronics,
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Australia's premier manufacturer of electric vehicle breake controllers in vehicle
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: dual battery chargers, vehicle management systems, gauges and monitors. I
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: have personally used red Arc products for three crossings of Australia,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: including the full length of the Canning Stock route and
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: all the way to the tip of Tasmania and back.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This included using their electronic brake controllers or a crossing
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: of the Great Australian Byte and their Manager thirty system
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: for multiple crossings of Oceania. For more information, visit Redarchelectronics
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: dot com. Matt and I would like to do a
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: quick call out to Nakota and Sonia Staples from Staples
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: in Tents and Black People off Road. We started working
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: with them. They've been helping us with our testing parameters
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: for the Overland Journal tests. They both work in the
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: technical yields the scientific fields, so they've been very helpful
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: for us to start to create some repeatability and testing
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: standards around our equipment. They also have a very cool
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Instagram and YouTube channel as well. You can find them
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: on YouTube as Staples Intents and on Instagram as Staples
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Intents and as Black People off Road. So just a
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: quick call out to amazing folks and Matt's rock and
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: the shirt right now. Very cool. And then I also
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: just got a really thoughtful gift from my friends at
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: the ex Overland so that is Clay and Rochelle Croft.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: They just sent me a very cool ten year anniversary Walmart.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: It's just awesome talks about all of their adventures around
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: the world. So we are big fans of what Clay
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: and Rochelle do with their family and their team. Very
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: high quality, authentic content with a lot of consideration around
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: just being good humans when they travel as well. So
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: thanks Clay and Rochelle for sending that really thoughtful gift
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: over to us. We're excited to see what you guys
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: do in twenty twenty one. Let's get started with some questions.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: The thing that always comes to mind for folks is
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: how do you make a living on the road? And
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: I think that would be a really interesting thing to
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: talk about, Amanda, kind of share what it is that
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: you do and how you're able to do that from
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: the road and make a living while you travel.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: Sure, so little bit of a journey to get where
• 3:01
  Speaker 4: I am today. But I currently am a copywriter. I
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: help sustainable minded brands who are also usually planet obsessed,
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: tell their sustainability stories.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: I use their words.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: Usually it's a lot of digital copy, so websites, email,
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: other types of online copy, and I help them speak
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: to consumers who care about these kinds of things, who
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: care about the planet, and who care about sustainability.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it's very cool to see the brands that
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: you work with. And you had quite some time with
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: YouTube before you hit the road. How many years did
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: you work with YouTube?
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I was, I met and I both kind
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: of met, and we can get into that later. But
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: in both of us were in California, and so I
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: was at YouTube for about three years as well. I
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: was on the marketing team there, and so I did
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: learn a lot about consumer marketing and email marketing and
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: how YouTube works. But it's also been a little while
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: and YouTube has grown, and it's been cool to see
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: those projects developed since I've been there.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Well, you've already been so helpful for us trying to
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: learn how learned the youtubees. So we thank you, Amanda
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: for all of your advice. It really means a lot.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: So when you hit the road, what did you see
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: that changed noticeably about how you work? What kind of
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: little hacks did you learn that helped you be effective
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: and focus while you were had that beautiful view right
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: out the vehicle's window.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Right, it's really hard and to be fully transparent, we
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: were not working full time in the way that you
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: might work full time sitting at an office. A big
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: motivation behind us going on the road was to be
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: able to control our time more and be flexible with
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: the way that we did work. And so yeah, I
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: wouldn't say we were working forty hours a week like
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: that was not part of what we wanted for our adventure.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: But there are definitely tools you can use to make
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: it a little easier to work from the road, and I've.
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: Learned over the last couple of years.
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: First off, obviously internet is a huge struggle and issue
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: that you're going to want to think about going on
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: the road. Service, the deeper you get the service obviously
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: isn't out there right now, at least I think there
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: are some possibilities coming in the future around that, but
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: right now it's not there. So you have to prioritize
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: where you're going to be. If you have meetings, especially
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: meetings on video, you need really good connection and so
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: that's a consideration to take. It's probably a good idea
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: to make sure that you're in a town before well
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: before the meeting, yes, well.
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: Before the meeting, to make sure things are working well.
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: And as things start to open up again, one of
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: our go tos used to be libraries libraries tend to
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: have really really good internet and are free, so you
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: can go there and use it, but that can also
• 5:19
  Speaker 4: be hard if you need to talk a lot. Just
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: be like planning around that is probably one of the
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: biggest concerns you'll have going on the road. Even if
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: you have tools like multiple different ways to access cell service,
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: you're still going to have to think about that.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: So I'd say that's the first one that comes to
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: mind for me.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: It was interesting even here in Prescott, right downtown, very
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: close to where you guys are right now and where
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: my home is. There, it's got a coffee shop inside
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: the inside the library, and they actually have these little
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: cubicles that you can work in. It makes it very
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: efficient to do that. I noticed that a lot of
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: people that travel full time, they tend to have like
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: a gym membership that's available, like a Planet Fitness or
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: something like that, So you can get access to a shower,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: and you can get access to a regul or workout routine.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: And then maybe you're right, maybe it's the library solution
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: that can oftentimes get you that better connectivity.
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, coffee shops are obviously a go to too,
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: but it's just the connectivity can really really widely vary. Yes,
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: libraries sometimes you can also book like private rooms, and
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: so that's a good thing to I don't know if
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: there's like a good way to find that other than
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: just searching the town you're in, but they sometimes have
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: little private rooms you can.
• 6:23
  Speaker 5: Book like conference rooms and stuff like that. It's pretty
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: interesting though right now because obviously with COVID nomads digital nomads,
• 6:29
  Speaker 5: people who are traveling in work remotely don't necessarily have
• 6:32
  Speaker 5: the same access that they had previously to those resources.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: So and again full transparency.
• 6:37
  Speaker 5: You know. Right now, we've been renting a room in Denver.
• 6:40
  Speaker 5: We've been living with Amanda's sister, Shannon, who's been a wonderful,
• 6:44
  Speaker 5: wonderful person to live with. We've had some more stability,
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: which has helped us kind of get to the point
• 6:49
  Speaker 5: that we're at now. And Amanda talked about it before.
• 6:51
  Speaker 5: When you ask you know we were working I would
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: say much more part time. And we first got on
• 6:55
  Speaker 5: the road and that was because we really wanted to
• 6:58
  Speaker 5: kind of get back to some of our passions and
• 7:00
  Speaker 5: getting on the road was a way to cut our
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: overheads that we didn't have to work as much we
• 7:04
  Speaker 5: could play a little bit more.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, kind of touching on some of those hacks too.
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think having structure is still really important,
• 7:09
  Speaker 5: you know, especially for being productive. So sometimes like picking
• 7:14
  Speaker 5: a portion of the day that you're going to work,
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: that can be helpful for accomplishing things on the road, because,
• 7:19
  Speaker 5: as you mentioned, you always have that temptation of what's
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: just outside the window or outside of the door of
• 7:24
  Speaker 5: your vehicle. And often for people that go on the
• 7:27
  Speaker 5: road full time, you do it to be in beautiful places. Sure,
• 7:30
  Speaker 5: so you know, when you're boon docking in Sedona and
• 7:32
  Speaker 5: you're looking at the Red Rock Canyon right outside, can
• 7:35
  Speaker 5: sometimes be difficult to find the motivation to sit down
• 7:37
  Speaker 5: in front of your computer for four hours and knock
• 7:39
  Speaker 5: out a bunch of work.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess after a while it starts to
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: make more sense. I mean, I find that even I
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: was riding a motorcycle solo up through South America, and
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: at first I was trying to work a little bit
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: every day and that just did not work well. So
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: I found if I booked a hotel that I knew
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: had reliable internet, or if I was going to a
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: city that would have a good hotel with reliable internet,
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: then I would just stop for an entire day and
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: maybe work sixteen hours that day. So I'm in a
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: hotel room, which is just like any other hotel room
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: in the world, and I'm not distracted by the historical
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: places or these beautiful roads or the beach or whatever else,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: and I just would lock myself down, get a bunch
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: of work done, and then get back into travel mode.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: And for me, that really helped. I don't find that
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I do well with parsing out the days like that.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: Other than just basic email communication and text communication. I
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: can keep that up, but I do find that I
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: need to stop and get out of traveler mode, my
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: head wrapped around the fact that I'm just in this
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: cubicle in a sense, and get that work done. Has
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: that worked for you guys, where you'd stop the camper
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: and then kind of focus on that, or how did
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: you deal with that even working part time?
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: I mean, certainly, I think, especially with creative work, it
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: can be easier to allow yourself that time to kind
• 8:53
  Speaker 5: of get in the groove and then stick with it.
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: And so, so like you're saying, I remember we talked
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: about this, you know, I think sometimes it is to
• 9:00
  Speaker 5: just set aside days or blocks of days. You know,
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: maybe say to yourself, well, I'm traveling full time, so
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: I have the flexibility to take whatever days off I want.
• 9:08
  Speaker 5: So I'm going to work for the next two days
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: while the weather's a little mediocre, Sure, get a bunch
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: of stuff done, and then once the weather gets nice,
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: then I'm going to go and take a couple of
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: days off. And you have that fluidity in your schedule,
• 9:19
  Speaker 5: and that's part of the beauty of working this way.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It is maintaining the flexibility listening to ourselves too, right,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I'm definitely a work until one am kind of person.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: If I force myself to get up early, I'm already
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: not happy about that program. So it affects my creativity
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: and I have trouble focusing, and I think that I
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: personally do better sprinting creatively. So if I'm engaged in
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: a topic, or if I'm even writing a big article
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: for Overland Journal, I may do twelve hours a day
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: for five or six days in a row and then
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: take some time off to recoup and get back that
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: kind of recharge, that creative juice. So then there are
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: you read about other writers like Stephen King and other
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: writers that will just they'll sit down, they have a
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: block of time, they close the door, and they do
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: that every day, and it is very much formulaic for them.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: And my mind doesn't work that way. I'm not sure
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: how my mind works, actually, but it doesn't work that
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: way for sure.
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: I think it's a combination of both for me too,
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: Like there are deadlines that really exist, and even if
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: I'm not feeling creative that day, i still need to
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: sit down and get a messy first draft out there
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: and have it to edit later. It's definitely something I
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: do and have learned. And I think, especially now that
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: we've gotten into paragliding, a lot of times you can
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: paraglide in the morning and then work like in the
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: afternoon or evening or sure so if it's better for
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: an evening flight. And so I've been able to find
• 10:38
  Speaker 4: ways where I'm like, if I get this to this point,
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: like I'll be able to paraglideither today or.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I'm going flying I'm sore in this afternoon exactly. Well,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: that's a good segue. I think we should talk about
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: the paragliding thing for a little bit so that is
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: a relatively recent passion for you too. What inspired you
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: to jump off a perfectly good mountain and trust the
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: thermals and a a wing to your life?
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: Well, I mean it has so many things these days
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: do It comes back to our time traveling full time
• 11:06
  Speaker 5: on the road.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: So this was what what year was this, twenty eighteen,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: twenty eighteen?
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: I care seventeen or eighteen.
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: It was the first year. What was the first year
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: we did the Vanlife gathering? It was twenty eighteen, right,
• 11:18
  Speaker 5: I think?
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: So?
• 11:20
  Speaker 5: Okay, So we were in Jackson, Wyoming and we were
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: running a van Life meetup with some friends of ours
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: who run a social account called van Life Diaries, which
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: it's got a fairly large following. And Amanda was like,
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: we're traveling full time, we should get involved with the
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: community more, we should run an event. So we actually
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: hosted an event in Wyoming, or excuse me, it was
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: in Idaho, but just on the other side of the Titans.
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: One of the couples that came to our event were
• 11:46
  Speaker 5: paragliding instructors and tandem paragliding pilots. They basically made us
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: an offer we couldn't refuse to go and fly at
• 11:52
  Speaker 5: Jackson at the ski Hill. Yeah, we said we've got
• 11:55
  Speaker 5: to do it because it's a fairly expensive thing to do.
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: So we went.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: We took them up on it.
• 11:59
  Speaker 5: We got a great deal and we flew off of
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: the scheme Mountain. I mean we landed and I remember
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: being like, I need to learn how to do this.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: So when you when you flew that first time, you
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: were tandemed up with this other pilot.
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, both of us were.
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: So we flew at the same time, but had like
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: we were attached to another pilot, so we didn't do
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: any of the piloting.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: We're just riding and enjoying the view.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of like skydiving.
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: They don't just like say go for it.
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: You know, this is like these sports are high consequences
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: if you do something wrong. So so you basically, yes,
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: you go with someone who's qualified, who knows what they're
• 12:32
  Speaker 5: doing training.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: You have to read the instructions. Is that what you're saying.
• 12:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, it's a fairly unforgiving sport if you miss something.
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: So yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean, you know, it
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: was incredible. It's not the adrenaline fueled experience that maybe
• 12:46
  Speaker 5: some people might think it would be, or at least
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: it wasn't for me. You know, I found it very relaxing.
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: It's it feels slow. It's not you're not, you know,
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: free falling. You're gradually running off a slope and then
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: you're in the air and it's just about side and
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: you're going maybe twenty to thirty miles an hour and
• 13:03
  Speaker 5: you've got this like breeze on your face and I mean,
• 13:05
  Speaker 5: you're flying.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: That's incredible.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just wild.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: So and is that the high point of it for you, Amanda,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: like that sense of flying or what is it that
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: you find makes you want to go do it again?
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Jump off another mountain?
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: Well, like Matt was saying, I think when I did
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: the tandem, oh had I had done a tandem skydive
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: as well, and that is very adrenaline fuels.
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: It's like, holy rap, I'm jumping out of a plane
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: and like you're going very fast.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: I've not done that yet.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, if you do both, you'll see. At least
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: for me, it was a very different experience. I didn't
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: land and say like I want to go learn that tomorrow, but.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: With here, I'm glad. I survived. I'm never doing that again.
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I was like, oh my gosh, that
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: was crazy, because you get I think the adeneraline rush
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: of skydiving, even tandem, is just crazy, and that was
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: not the same for a pair of glutting, but it
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: was similar to Matt, I felt like it was relaxing,
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: which then I learned being a pilot that is definitely
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: not the case all the time.
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: And it's not relaxing as a pilot yourself, but just
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: the speed of it.
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: Being able to fly above places, fly above a peak
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: and look around and look down and see animals or
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: a view that you can't see any other way. I
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: mean you could see it in a small aircraft, but
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: having the wind literally on your face. It's just being
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: immersed in nature in a very different way. But also
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: that isn't as adrenaline pact as skydiving. A lot of
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: people do both, do skydiving and paragliding, but for me,
• 14:20
  Speaker 4: paragliding only.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I wonder how much I mean I think about for
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: myself that I try to look for these activities that
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: are a little more analog, where you can't use your
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: phone to read email or to check tech messages, or
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: you know, hopefully not getting on Instagram or whatever. But
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: it seems like when you're trying to fly a paraglider
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: that you're not distracted by those things. You're probably not
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: even thinking about them at all. Has that been your experience,
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: It's like an escape, that mental disconnect from the digital world,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: your digital lives that you live as creatives too.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think especially it depends on your
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: skill level, so and the conditions, which we're still both
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: very new and learning, and the conditions can get really
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: really extreme. That's a big part is learning how to
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: read weather and learn about the environment in a deeper
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: way than I've ever had a chance to learn. But
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: I think I'm just focusing on what I'm doing in
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: that moment very very much. Can you get into a
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: flow state and based what you're doing off feeling or
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: there are some small instruments you used, so potentially based
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: off of signals from the instruments, but basically like, am
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: I entering wind that's lifting me up?
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: Where's that wind coming from? How do I enter into that?
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: How does it feel on my hands as I'm piloting
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: this piece of nylon?
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it's you know, it's one of those,
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: like any more complex activity that you can learn to do.
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: When you initially start doing it, just a fairly simple
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: task can occupy a very big part of your brain's
• 15:42
  Speaker 5: ability to comprehend what's going on and to make decisions
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: that are smart or logical, and paragliding is very much
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: like that, you know, Like at our point where we're
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: less than a year in, it's a very big part
• 15:53
  Speaker 5: of our ability just to fly the glider safely away
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: from the hill, fly through the air safely, and land safely.
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: And the longer you do it, you know, you start
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: to see pilots who are capable of doing much more
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: than just flying, and it's really incredible to see. And
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: I think, you know, that's one of the most interesting
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: things about this sport. Doing a tandem flight, you have
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: no concept of what's going on. It feels so laid back,
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: it feels so fun and relaxing. The second you're the
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: pilot and there's no one else to make sure you
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: get to the ground safely, it changes. And I mean
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: it's not I don't want to use the word scary,
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: but it's very real. You know, you're you're very acutely
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: aware of the potential consequences of a good or bad decision. Sure,
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: and so right now we're still at that point where
• 16:33
  Speaker 5: we're very much just totally focused on the flight. You know.
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: I've tried to take my camera up a few times
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: around my neck, and I've managed to take a couple
• 16:40
  Speaker 5: of photos, but I always find myself coming back and saying,
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm just gonna like leave these extra things behind.
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: I need to focus on the flying. Yeah, I'm not
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: quite there yet, you know. I am at a point
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: where I want to focus on learning to fly really
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: well and have it be a little bit more intuitive,
• 16:56
  Speaker 5: so that I can start focusing on some of the
• 16:57
  Speaker 5: more complexity, some of the other complexity of the sport,
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: like staying up for longer periods of time, or flying
• 17:03
  Speaker 5: away from the hill that I start on and going
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: somewhere else. You know, it's like you basically have to
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: understand all the complexities of piloting and aircraft.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not just steering your glider.
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: It's understanding the weather and how that progresses over the
• 17:14
  Speaker 5: course of the day. It's understanding and identifying what direction
• 17:17
  Speaker 5: the wind is going, you know, relation to where you're going.
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: Because those are two different things. I mean, it can
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: get very complex.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: And you mentioned that some advanced pilots will even travel
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: hundreds of kilometers, you know, in their journeys, and yeah,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: I mean flights just in the past couple of days.
• 17:34
  Speaker 5: I think it was a pilot back in Boulder Seater, right,
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: who's also a pretty pretty well known climber. He just
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: set the record for that particular site. He flew over
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: one hundred miles from the site east in Colorado.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: So yeah, in one go, he doesn't land, he's just
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: up there that whole time, flying and catching thermals and
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: staying up and I think it was it was definitely
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: over six hours.
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think his flight was close to seven hours.
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: But I'm I mean pilots, I mean people fly five
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: hundred kilometers plus in different parts of the world. Yeah,
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: it's kind of progression of the sport to the upper levels.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: The pilots that are the best in the sport, they
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: do incredible things. I mean they go in they'll fly
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: over wilderness areas, they'll fly over places where you don't
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: really have the option of landing. Sure, things don't go right,
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: and it's just crazy to think about you know, because again,
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: I'm we're so focused on just taking off and landing
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: safely sure that it's like the idea of flying one
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: hundred miles and being in the air for seven hours
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: is just like it's almost, you know, incomprehensible at this point,
• 18:32
  Speaker 5: but it's something to strive for. I mean, the idea
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: of being able to fly one hundred miles without any
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: kind of power is really that's incredible. Yeah, it's pretty wild.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: You both recently did a trip to Turkey talk about
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: and it was that both of your first time in Turkey. Yes,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: that was so talk a little bit about your experience
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: in the country and like maybe the high point of
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: your your flights there.
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: When you were asking that question earlier about getting on
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: your phone, I'd say, that's the one place where I've
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: consistently been able to do that, and that's just because
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: the conditions there when we were flying were very smooth
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: compared to some of the conditions that you deal with
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: in mountains or even in the desert. I know that
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: conditions there can be rougher, but when we were there,
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: it was basically thirty minutes of flying around with you
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: could oftentimes take your hands off of the Introls.
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: It was that smooth.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: And so that's like one of the few times that
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: Matt had a camera. I took my phone out and
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: actually took photos. I always fly with my phone, but
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: like I almost never touch it. And you're flying over
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: the Mediterranean and you can literally I'll just talk about
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: one of my favorite moments. There was a morning flight
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: with Matt. As we're coming into is about thirty minute flight. Again,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: you're about five thousand feet over the Mediterranean when you're
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: coming in and as we're coming into land, there's a
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: pirate chip there that I guess goes on little cruises.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: We didn't end up doing the cruise, but it started playing.
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: And landed on the pirate ship I.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: Wish, but I did do a very close flyby while
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: I was playing Pirates of the Caribbean theme song and yes, yes,
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: and I totally was like, this is the coolest moment ever.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: And then did you land on the beach?
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: Landed right on the beach right next to it.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: That's so good. And there somebody that is there waiting
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: with like a minut you look for here or something.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are there are bars on the beach.
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: There you can literally land, put your wing in a
• 20:05
  Speaker 5: pile and go and get a cocktail.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. How fun is that?
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: I mean it was a blast, and it was a
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: really interesting trip. I mean we went there specifically to
• 20:15
  Speaker 5: take what's called an SIV course, which has like a
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: French meaning, it's like situation in vol right. Yes, Basically,
• 20:23
  Speaker 5: basically you're simulating things that could go wrong with your
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: glider while you're flying, with instruction and learning how to
• 20:29
  Speaker 5: correct those things in flight. Very cool and so Eludinese,
• 20:32
  Speaker 5: which is where we went, is a great place to
• 20:34
  Speaker 5: practice that because, as Amanda mentioned, you you get a
• 20:38
  Speaker 5: ton of terrain clearance. So you you drive up this
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: insane road with these taxi drivers that go so fast,
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: I mean they do not care if you're getting nauseated.
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: They're getting to the top of this road in twenty
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: five minutes. And then you fly off this mountain and
• 20:50
  Speaker 5: you're the summit is I think just over six thousand
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: feet above sea level and you're you're landing at the ocean.
• 20:55
  Speaker 5: So you're getting six thousand feet of terrain clearance, which
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: is there's not many places where you can get that,
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: and with parag lighting, actually the more terine clearance you
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: have theoretically the safer you are, you know, the thing
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: that's going to hurt you is the ground.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: So the further you are from the ground.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: The sudden stop right right.
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So you fly out over the water and then
• 21:12
  Speaker 5: you do these maneuvers, you practice them, and so we
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: were grabbing the lines on our paragliders and yanking them
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: down and causing the winged collapse and then you fall
• 21:19
  Speaker 5: out of the sky and then you learn what to
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: do to correct that.
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: Gotcha, Yeah, and you're over the water.
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: In case you do have to throw your back your reserve.
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: So we do fly every like almost every pilot flies
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: with one to two sometimes EB three.
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: We fly with one backup.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: Parachute that if anything were to go wrong in your glider,
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: you can't control it anymore.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: It's not flying over your head. You throw your backup reserve.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, So.
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: We neither of us did, but people who are on
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: that same course did end up throwing the reserve and
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: ending up in the water. A Ludinese is one of
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: the places that people go to do that, and there
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: are boats there to.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: Pick you up.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: It's as far as like practicing those skills it's one
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: of the best places to do that.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: I've always had on my bucket list to be in
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: a helicopter when it does in the auto rotation plan
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: they oh boy, because just to me, when I first
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: heard that that was how they do that and that
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: was possible, it literally was mine at some point in
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: my life, I would love to hop in with a
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: great pilot and actually experience turning off the engine of
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: a helicopter. And it is just incredible to me that
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: that works. But I would love to experience that. I mean,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: it seems worth the risk to see that happen, just
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: because helicopters are amazing, but yeah, to experience that kind
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: of thing.
• 22:24
  Speaker 5: They seem terrifying to Yeah, yeah, I get sick.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, they do move around more than you'd think. Yeah,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: it depends on the conditions, like.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: Anything, right, Yeah, And Eludines is also one of the
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: places where pilots go to train acro air gletting, which
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: is a whole different thing, but basically they're there to
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: do tricks over the water so you can watch people
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: do crazy things. They do infinity loops and all kinds
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: of we'll send you some videos.
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: They have these very specialized wings for this that are
• 22:50
  Speaker 5: they're much more reactive to inputs to the controls. But yeah,
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: I mean you literally you're flying around doing whatever you're doing.
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: They're practicing your SIV maneuvers, just having a nice light.
• 23:00
  Speaker 5: We see people literally doing like head over heels, like
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: tumbling for minutes, or helicopter rotation where they're basically descending
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: vertically and just spinning around.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's pretty wild the things you see people
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: doing there.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: And what did you as for a travel location? What
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: were some of your high points from Turkey.
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: We didn't do a whole lot of traveling around in
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: the country while we were there.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we had plans.
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: To travel a little bit more widely, but there was
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: some State Department stuff that came up while we were there,
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: and like all of the US embassies were closed within
• 23:29
  Speaker 5: the country because of some safety concerns. Would that have materialized,
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: we don't know, but you know, we figured we can
• 23:35
  Speaker 5: always go back, so we ended up just sticking around
• 23:38
  Speaker 5: in a Ludinese That particular location as a place to
• 23:41
  Speaker 5: travel to was great. It's a pretty touristy destination, though
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: there are a lot of British tourists there a lot
• 23:47
  Speaker 5: of German tourists there. Yeah, I mean as a place
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: to go, it was great. We were able to walk
• 23:52
  Speaker 5: from our accommodations down to the beach.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: It felt super safe. Everyone was really friendly.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my experience there in Turkey. I met
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: met so just wonderful people. In a place called TRAbs On,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: we needed to get some service done to this little
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Suzuki jimney. We were driving across Central Asia and pulled
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: in there. We actually saw a Defender one ten with
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: an Expedition exchange sticker on the back of it. And
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: I just walked into the little shop and said, hey,
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: I'd like to get this stuff done to my car,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: and they were immediately, whatever you need. It took care
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: of us. We had food with them, and it was
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: just truly wonderful. And Constanople was the same way and
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: all spending time along the Caspian and without a doubt
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: for me, it was a very safe and super enjoyable
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: country to spend time in.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think, especially like Matt said, the
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: other concern. Part of the concern was that travel Advisory.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: I also had a huge project deadline that I was
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: working on.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: And that came up while we were there.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: I basically signed this project that was like dream client
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: while we were there, and I couldn't say no, So
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: I was navigating.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: That striking the balance.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that was one of the biggest challenges is because
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: the time difference getting meetings with my client. I would
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: be really late at night there and I just needed.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: To not have to make that decision.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: Sure, watching Matt go fly, that was one of the times
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: where it was like hard to stay in the hotel.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: Room, but.
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: Definitely a rewarding project. In the end. I'm really glad
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: we did it, so we're looking forward to going back.
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: The food was that's amazing.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Their coffee is amazing, amazing.
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: All the locals there were were excellent and just super nice,
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: down to earth, and it was really fun kind of
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: venturing out from a Lutanese because it's this little kind
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: of bubble of tourist activity and pretty much the only
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: Turkish people there at the shop owners sure, and then
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: if you drive out a little bit, you know, you
• 25:32
  Speaker 5: find more of the locals, and it was so fun
• 25:35
  Speaker 5: to go to some of the restaurants within a bit
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: of a radius and they're they were like surprised to
• 25:39
  Speaker 5: see tourists showing up to sit down and eat, but
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: they were all just so nice and like Amanda said,
• 25:43
  Speaker 5: I mean, the food was fantastic.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Food is really good there.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: We loved it.
• 25:47
  Speaker 5: I mean that's generally one of my favorite parts about traveling,
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: is no doubt that food.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt.
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah it was great.
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: I mean we ended up still there for about three weeks,
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: so it was a great trip and affordable, amazing food.
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: Definitely would go back, go if you can have a chance.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: I think I think that food is such an anchoring
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: part of any travel experience because I've heard this, I've
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: not studied it myself, but they say that olfactory memories
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: are the strongest memories that we have. So if we
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: can associate a beautiful travel experience with a great meal
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: and all of the smells and the smell of the
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: coffee and the spices and everything else, it seems like
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to me that it helps kind of embed that memory.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: I remember being in Marrakesh and having this It was
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: actually camel that was stewed with peaches and cinnamon and cardamom,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: and like it is still I remember it all of
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: the details, like where I was sitting in the room
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: and the way that they were laying down because you
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: were kind of laying on these couches. It's amazing how
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: those food memories really reinforce the experience of what you're doing.
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: I don't know that study what I would agree with
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: it because I definitely have similar experiences, like a smell
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: can bring you back somewhere, and that food was really
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: good bring me back.
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: Also a great way to break the ice, which I'm
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: socially aware of. It's that thing that you can come
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: to that's like devoid of politics or differences.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: And yeah, breaking bread.
• 27:05
  Speaker 5: I was going to say, you know, when you can
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: appreciate the food of a culture and they see that, like,
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: that's just a win for everyone right there, and a
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: good way to it certainly is.
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: And a special thanks to this week's supporting sponsor ARB.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: The latest episode of AARB Experiences stars land cruiser aficionado
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: and my good friend Kurt Williams. The Baja one thousand
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: competitor has been a few places and seen a few things.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: His travels span Siberia, Greenland, and the Americas all the
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: way down to Ushwaya, as well as several crossings of Australia.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Kurt says of his adventures, anything can happen out there.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Just one part not doing its job can ruin a
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: whole trip. Investments in quality components payback exponentially. You can
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: watch Kurt's full story at arbusa dot com. So to
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: pivot a little bit with you, Matt primarily focusing a
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: lot of your editorial around the campers and trailers and
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: just general camping and of vehicles fitted with campers. When
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: we talk about looking to purchase a camper or a trailer,
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: what are some of the things that you could advise
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: the listener that you consider to be like the top
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: things to look for in a camper. Help people run
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: down that process of should I get a trailer or
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: should I get a truck based camper or should I
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: get an RV? Essentially we call them expedition campers, but
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: walk people through like some of the things that you
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: think are important in your research.
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: And this is a topic that you can get really
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: deep into. I think one thing that is hard to
• 28:32
  Speaker 5: get around is you have to kind of live it
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: to figure out exactly what you need.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: You know, you can have an idea.
• 28:37
  Speaker 5: For instance, Amanda and I bought our RV that we
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: lived in for almost three years. It was a classic
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: in nineteen sixty four. It was We picked it for
• 28:46
  Speaker 5: a few reasons, you know. One, it just had tons
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: of character. It was like super cool, super cool, and
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: we just fell in love with the way it looked.
• 28:53
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: The size was appealing. It was eighteen feet long.
• 28:56
  Speaker 5: You know, that's smaller than some of the longer extended
• 28:58
  Speaker 5: sprinters and transits things like that. So we wanted something
• 29:01
  Speaker 5: that was maneuverable, that could get around. You know. Ultimately,
• 29:04
  Speaker 5: for us picking a classic vehicle, it was a great
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: experience and we really enjoyed it.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: But it was a little slow.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Driver fatigue was like through the roof, you know. Doing
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: two hundred miles in a day was like, man, that
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: was a lot of work an expedition.
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: Yeah, seriously, you know so I think, but I'm kind
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: of getting ahead of myself on that. You know, I
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: think you have to come back to basically starting your
• 29:24
  Speaker 5: your search for your vehicle or your system with you know,
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: what is your intended use for it, you know, and
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: you have to be really honest with yourself about that.
• 29:32
  Speaker 5: Like I think there are a lot of people that
• 29:34
  Speaker 5: want to go out and buy that crazy expedition vehicle,
• 29:36
  Speaker 5: you know, because why not, Like, if you can afford it,
• 29:38
  Speaker 5: they're so cool, Like, yeah, I would love to get
• 29:40
  Speaker 5: an earth Romer, but like, am I going to use
• 29:42
  Speaker 5: that to its full potential?
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Probably not.
• 29:44
  Speaker 5: You know the reality of my life right now is
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm working a fair amount and I want
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: to travel, but I don't need that kind of capability.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: So what are you compromising to buy that? The cost
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: of an earth Roamer new now is about a half
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: a million dollars. Ye, you could travel full time for
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: ten years.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: On that money, probably longer, yeah.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: If you for sure. In fact, a good friend of mine,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Stefano Melgratti, who wrote around the world on a two
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: point fifty yamaha. His daily expenses were twenty eight dollars
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: a day, So do that math. Yeah, you're pretty much
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: traveling for the rest of your life totally on that
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: kind of on that kind of money and seeing all
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: of the world. So I think I think maybe you
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: made the best point there of if you can afford it,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: which means if it makes no other impact to your travels,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: if you've made no other compromises, if you were able
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: to travel for as long as you wish and it
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: includes an earth Romer, then that's awesome because you're going
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: to be super comfy, right Yeah.
• 30:43
  Speaker 5: And honestly that's kind of an extreme example, right, But
• 30:46
  Speaker 5: I think the point I'm making is, you know, you
• 30:49
  Speaker 5: have to be again, you have to be realistic about.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Your use case.
• 30:51
  Speaker 5: So for us, the RV was great, but we found
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: that what it lacked was capability. You know, we could
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: take it on dirt, but we couldn't really take it
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: everywhere we wanted to go that we're paragliding, we're finding
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: that we need to tackle some slightly more technical dirt
• 31:04
  Speaker 5: roads to get to some of these launches, places that.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: The RV just couldn't go. So we're leaning more towards
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: a truck.
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: So I think you have to start by saying where
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: do I want to go at this vehicle and can
• 31:13
  Speaker 5: it get there? So that's a great place to start.
• 31:15
  Speaker 5: Budget is a huge thing too. I mean you pointed
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: it out, and honestly, that was a big part of
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: our decision too. You know, we looked at our living
• 31:21
  Speaker 5: expenses at the time and we kind of did the
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: math and said, well, if we buy this vehicle for
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: X number of dollars, like how many months of paying
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: rent or paying a mortgage do we have to go
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: before makes sense?
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: And so that's kind of where we're at now. It's
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: like that is a consideration.
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: You know, if you have an income that is relatively stable,
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: you can kind of say, here's what I can spend
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: in any given month, and you know, maybe buying that
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: newer truck actually makes sense because if you're not paying rent,
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: maybe you're actually paying less for the new truck that
• 31:48
  Speaker 5: gets you where you need to go or the new
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: camper van.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: You know, and most people that are paying rent are
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: also paying a car payment on top of it, So
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: if you can combine them in just to one, then
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: maybe your overall expenses or even lower.
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah, but I'm maybe also making the assumption that you're
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: traveling full time, and you know that's that's also not
• 32:05
  Speaker 5: everyone's reality. You know, a lot of people are going
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: to want to get an adventure vehicle that they can
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: use on weekends, that they can take for a week
• 32:10
  Speaker 5: at a time, but you know, they're still going to
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: maybe have a house or a place that they come
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: back to, and so you know, you can go simpler
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: if that's the case. I think if you get anything
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: used and you're looking at a camper or trailer, you
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: have to start by looking at the roof. That's like
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: the most important thing I've learned. That's one of the
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: kind of weak spots in any camper or trailer. So
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: get up on a ladder and look at the roof
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: before you say like, oh, yeah, this looks great because
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: the inside.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Maybe maybe run a hose over it for a while
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: and see if it leads totally yeah, I mean, I'm smart.
• 32:38
  Speaker 5: That was kind of the weak spot in our R
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: and V, and we did some work to mitigate issues.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: But it was an old vehicle.
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: It had been in pretty decent storage, but it had
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: rust and it leaked at first, and we had to
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: do a bunch of work on the roof, which is
• 32:51
  Speaker 5: not easy work.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Sure, when you look at trailers, you've been using more
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: of the trailers and featuring more of the trailers. What
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: are some of the things that you like to recommend
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: around a trailer purchase.
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: I think with any vehicle, I think kind of that
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: kiss keep it simple, stupid. I think the simpler you
• 33:08
  Speaker 5: can go with systems, the better off you are because
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: it's less it's less stuff to break.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: You know, I would always advocate.
• 33:14
  Speaker 5: For going simpler than more complex with your systems, and
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: that's just you know, learning from a you know experience.
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: We in our camper, we had, like we installed an
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: on demand hot water heater and that was great until
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: we were in Moab and the temperature plunged when a
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: cold front came through, and you know, our system broke
• 33:29
  Speaker 5: because the water froze and the pipes burst, so and
• 33:32
  Speaker 5: that's not a super easy thing to fix on the spot.
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: It was really we had to shut off our water
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: and we had no access to our water tanks for
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: a couple of days until we got it squared away.
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: So I think to your question, you know, what should
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: a trailer have. You know, a functional cooking system is great.
• 33:46
  Speaker 5: I really like having a sleeping area that is not
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: a convertible sleeping area that's just like a colldicated bed,
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: something you don't have to set up every day, you know,
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: is really nice. The same goes for a working space
• 33:58
  Speaker 5: if you intend to work when you're on the road.
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: And I think that's you know, that's another thing you
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: have to address when you're looking at what you want
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: to get again, what am I going to use this
• 34:06
  Speaker 5: vehicle for if you're trying to have a job on
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: the road. We found that it's really a lot easier
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: to be productive and to get quality work done if
• 34:13
  Speaker 5: you have a dedicated working space. Sure, so that means
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: not having to put away your kitchen so that you
• 34:18
  Speaker 5: can use your kitchen counter as a desk.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: You know, we did that and you can get by.
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: But I think it's a lot easier if you have
• 34:24
  Speaker 5: a dedicated place to get that work done.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know, what are your thoughts, Yeah, what are
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: you in thoughts?
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that's totally right.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: I had to flash back to that same moment in
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: Moab when our hit eighteen degrees at night and we
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: didn't I had never experienced that, had no idea to
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: like drain water or anything in our pipes exploded and
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: so we actually, I don't remember exactly what we did,
• 34:42
  Speaker 4: but we couldn't replace that for a while because we
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: had to get it delivered. There was nowhere to buy
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: that exact system. I think we were able to just
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: rout it without using the heating, but a whole it
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: took like over a month to get that actual heating
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: element in our outdoor shower fixed, sure, so definitely agree
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: with that there. I think one of the biggest considerations
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: we're working on the road oftentimes would end up working
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: in the bed. We initially when we first built out,
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: like we really did the interior entirely of our campra van,
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: which we didn't talk about but have photos and show
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: them to you. But we had a table and originally
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: we actually had the same size as the original table
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: and it was like a fold out table, but it
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: ended up just.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Not working for the space.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: It broke and we never replaced it because it took
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: up so much space, so we didn't end up having.
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: An actual table to sit at.
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: And oftentimes we would sit on our arb fridge, so
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: our little our fridge made a good seating area. So
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: I would often either work from like the fridge or
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: the bed, and it would be hard to do that,
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: like it's too comfy or you just don't really have
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: the work mindset. So one of our priorities for what
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: we're looking for next is to have a place that
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: is separate that we can work in so we can
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: get into that mindset and have it like physically separated,
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: even though it's a small space to have like a
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: physically separate place where now I'm in work mode, now
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: I'm in sleep relax mode, and keeping those separate.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: We're seeing that more and more. Airstream just launched their
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: kind of like nomad, you know, professional nod trailer. It's
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: basically got a workstation built into what's the name of
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: that model, that's the.
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: Flying Cloud thirty line I just wrote about it. So yeah,
• 36:08
  Speaker 5: they did basically an office version of that.
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:11
  Speaker 5: I think the timing was great for them because so
• 36:14
  Speaker 5: more people are finding out that they can work remotely.
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: It turns out, right they didn't have to go into
• 36:18
  Speaker 5: an office all this time. But yeah, it's clever. It's
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: got a nice little desk kind of nook in the
• 36:22
  Speaker 5: corner with an office chair, and it's kind of optimized
• 36:25
  Speaker 5: for getting work done, and I think that's super clever.
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: I was just kind of racking my brain for stuff
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: that's important, because I think you know a lot of
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: people who haven't lived on the road yet they really
• 36:34
  Speaker 5: want to know what's important. I think one thing that
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: I didn't mention yet is having that ability to be
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: truly off grid, you know, to be able to dry camp.
• 36:42
  Speaker 5: So that would mean like a fairly robust power system
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: and enough fresh water. Yeah, And I think that's super
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: important these days because with just how popular traveling is getting,
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: and especially during the whole pandemic thing, all of the
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: national forests and national parks are seeing a lot more use.
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: So it may be difficult to find shore power hookup
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: or a water hookup. So having that ability to be
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: totally self sufficient and go and find a BLM spot,
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: I think if you're thinking about getting a trailer or a camper,
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: you know, don't neglect your capacity to stay off grid
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: for a few days, because it might be hard to
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: find a camping spot if you haven't booked it out,
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: you know, yea months in advance. That's what we're seeing.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: I know a lot of people said that they'll go
• 37:21
  Speaker 5: to a national park and there's just nothing. Now it's
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: it's booked out four or five months in advance.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: And that's so much of the spirit of overland travel anyways,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: is to get remote, to find those really beautiful distant locations.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: On the trailer subject. One of the things that I've
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: found through the years is if you don't if you
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: can't retreat inside the trailer, the use case for it,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: in my mind goes down considerably. It doesn't mean that
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: there aren't use cases for trailers with tents on top
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: of them. A good example of that would be a
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: family of four and a four runner. Then those kind
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: of fold out tent style trailers do make sense. But
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: if it's a couple and or a single individual, then
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: why not dedicate the trailer towards that retreat where you
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: can open up a door or hatch and awl inside
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: it to a dedicated bed. And I'm seeing more and
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: more trailers, even some that are very small and very capable,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: like for example, we just had that sniper trailer show
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: up right, which has got a full sized bed that
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: falls down. It also lifts up, and you can have
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: a full size kitchen seating area to work inside the trailer,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: but you're totally protected on the inside of it from
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: the conditions, and you can add a heater and everything else.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: To me, that makes sense because now you're towing something
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: that's like a very small off road capable home, Whereas
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: if the trailer just has the same roof tent that
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: you could put on top of your vehicle, why not
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: just put the roof down on top of your vehicle
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: and save all of that expense and wait, backing up
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: a trailer is always a consideration too, So yeah.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I'm inclined to agree with you.
• 38:50
  Speaker 5: I think, you know, a trailer that doesn't provide sleeping quarters,
• 38:53
  Speaker 5: I'm not going to say it's useless.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: There's you know, there's a prettcess change yet, right, there's.
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: A person that that's perfect for, you know, and there
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: are instances where that's totally fine, like nice summer, you know,
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: adventure where the weather's perfect, you know, like that slide
• 39:06
  Speaker 5: out outdoor kitchen and rooftop tent.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: That's fine, and that's maybe even better, right.
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: You know, it's like it's hard to keep a trailer
• 39:12
  Speaker 5: cool in the summer, yeh, off grid. But yeah, I mean,
• 39:14
  Speaker 5: I think one of the biggest advantages to a trailer
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: or a camper is having that kind of bulletproof living quarters.
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: Like we've been in the RV when it's just dumping
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: rain or snow and you are so thankful that you're
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: not in a tent. Yeah I know, sale, Yeah, I know.
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: Some of these tents are like they're pretty weather proof.
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: I've heard from people who have been in crazy weather
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: with them and they say like, yeah, I stayed dry
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: but being within some sort of rigid shell.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it seems like the cost of the trailer
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: with a soft tent on top of it are usually
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: very close to the cost of like a tear drop
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: where you have hard sides and a hard roof and
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: a door that you open and it has a fan
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: on the inside and it pulls in you know, fresh air,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: and just seems like that from my perspective that looking
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: at a trailer, it should be something you can retreat
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: in se of as opposed to kind of live on
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: top of or around, which at that point, why not
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: just put the tent on top of the car and
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: save a bunch of money.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think you're kind of right on it.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's of course it's my opinion, which
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: doesn't mean anything, but in my experience that's been something
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: to look out for, is what's the advantage of the trailer.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: What can it do that the car can't? Sure and
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: if you can go inside it, or maybe like the
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Sniper where you're sitting, you know, at a dinet and
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: you can work, or like the Airstream or any of
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: those other quality teardrop style trailers. For sure, the.
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: Cool thing too, is one of the biggest advantages with
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: any trailers that you can detach it from the vehicle. Yeah,
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: haying a whole lot of extra for a super off
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: road capable trailer. You know, you have to decide if
• 40:41
  Speaker 5: that's the right call for you. For me, I would
• 40:43
  Speaker 5: rather pay for a trailer that I could get inside of,
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: like you were saying, versus one that I can haul
• 40:48
  Speaker 5: way into the back country, because it's like I can
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: just park the trailer somewhere reasonable.
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: He tached the truck and then still go.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: Out go do a day trip up into the mountains.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Well that's me.
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: You know, maybe there's someone that really just like getting
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: way back there with the trailer, or is that's the
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: thing they want to do and that's what you want
• 41:02
  Speaker 5: to do, then get that super high clearance one.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Yeah. One of the things that we love
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: to ask on this show is favorite books that you
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: would recommend to our listeners. I have learned so many
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: great books from podcasts that I listened to that many
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: of them have been very transformative for me. So, Amanda,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: what would you say is your top couple books that
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: you would recommend to friends?
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's such a hard question.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: I'll just talk about one that I found, like at
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: a really good time as far as this kind of
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: transition for me in my life and as the alchemist.
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: You probably have heard this one before.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: It feels a little cliche, to be honest, but it
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: found me right when I needed it. And yeah, we
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: can talk now about living in the camper for three years,
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: but when we were actually making that decision, it was
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: a big decision for me and like one of the
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: craziest and most life changing things I'd ever done. I
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: grew up in a town where like the expected path
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: was that you would go to college and then get
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: a job, probably as a lawyer or a doctor, or
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: maybe get a PhD, like a very high performing path,
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: and I allwed that path for a long time.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: I grew up, I went to an Ivy League school.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: I ended up in Silicon Valley working in tech, which
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: that's not a doctor but now it's kind of up
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: there at this point, and I found myself just not fulfilled.
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: It wasn't the path that was for me, and I
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: was questioning that a lot, and every time I'd bring that.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: Up, people would ask me, why what you're leaving YouTube?
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: Are you crazy?
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: And that book just made me feel like, yeah, I
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: mean there are different pathswor different people, and this is
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: my journey. Just remember being like settled. It helped me
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: feel accepting of what the path I was taking at
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: the time. So that's one of the ones all put
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: out there.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing how much energy we can spend trying
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: to accomplish things that we don't really want for people
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: that we don't really like. It's amazing how much energy
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: we lose in that pursuit.
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: Right, So, yeah, Amanda, she had this great idea, which
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: maybe I'm like giving the idea away, but it's this
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: art idea of you know, asking people to consider who's
• 42:53
  Speaker 5: dream they're building. Yeah, and I think it really lays
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: at like the tech scene in San Francisco specific. You know,
• 43:00
  Speaker 5: you've got people who are giving sixty seventy eighty hours
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: of their life a week to building an app so
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: that someone else can put a lot of money in
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: their pocket. And sometimes these things aren't really they're not
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: really services or products that are doing much good in
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: the world. You know, they're elevating the quality of life
• 43:16
  Speaker 5: for people who are already privileged. So I don't know
• 43:19
  Speaker 5: when she told me that, like that has stuck with me.
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: I think about that all the time. Any other books
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: come to mind, Amanda.
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: That's the top one for now. I'll let you know
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: if I.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Think, okay, awesome, we can add it to the show
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: notes for sure. How about you, Matt, I.
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: Would just say anything by Edward Abbey, specifically Desert Solitaire.
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: I mean that's like kind of his classic work that
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: probably a fair number of people here familiar with. But
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: you know, if you're new to the outdoors, playing in
• 43:43
  Speaker 5: the outdoors, adventuring, that's just a really great one. It's
• 43:46
  Speaker 5: about his time as a park service employee. It's just
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: the way he writes is really vivid. His descriptions. Some
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: of his other stuff is just really fascinating too. He
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: was like a very big critic of expansion for the
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: sake of expansion. And yeah, Monkey Wrench Gang is another
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: one by him that I absolutely love. That one's a
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: little bit it's interesting because it's fictitious, but it's got
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: a lot of elements of sure nonfiction in it. You know,
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: I think that that had something to do with the
• 44:12
  Speaker 5: Earth First movement.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just he's a fascinating writer, and just his
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: take on things.
• 44:16
  Speaker 5: He's really not afraid to say what he thinks, which
• 44:18
  Speaker 5: you know, sometimes I find myself reading him and I
• 44:22
  Speaker 5: like him, but I read stuff that he says, I'm like, man,
• 44:25
  Speaker 5: you know, if he was still around, it's the way
• 44:27
  Speaker 5: he speaks sometimes is not so pecy. Yeah, he's definitely
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: you know, as a human you know, has things that
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: I can take issue with. But I think overall, his
• 44:35
  Speaker 5: ideas about the importance of preserving wilderness, of preserving wild
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: places is something that we really need and we should
• 44:41
  Speaker 5: really be paying attention to. And he's just when I
• 44:43
  Speaker 5: read his work, it gets me fired up, you know.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: It's and he loved doing what we love to do.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: He was an overlander for sure. I mean his travels
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: in well maybe that's how you ended like being drawn
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: to southern Arizona right or to Arizona in general. That
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: was his I was his playground. And if you drive
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: along the El Camino del Diablo, there are many places
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: that he talks about in organ Pipe and all of that.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: And one of the stories about Edward Abbey that I
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: found so fascinating was he passes away and all of
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: his buddies steal his body like this they had all
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: planned it, including him, ahead of time, and they steal
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: his body and they take him out in the desert
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: and bury him in an undisclosed location, Like you could
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: not pull that off anymore, but they somehow are at
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: that perfect moment in history that they could still steal
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: a body, bury it in the middle of nowhere and
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: get away with it. None of his buddies ever gave
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: up the location. There's ideas about where he's at. So
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: maybe maybe that's the next trip for you. We'll get
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: a vehicle lined up and you go walk in the
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: footsteps of Edward Abbey.
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: I picture him like laughing in his grave, just like
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: you're never going to fail me. He's probably somewhere very obscure.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope. So that's the thing that's fascinating about it.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 45:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that that story is awesome. I mean, it's just
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: like speaks to who he was. And one other book
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: that I'll mention that I think is a worthwhile one
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: to read if you like him and if maybe read
• 46:09
  Speaker 5: some of his material. But it's a book called Postcards
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: from ed And it's actually a collection of some of
• 46:14
  Speaker 5: his personal correspondence with friends and family members, and also
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: a bunch of his responses to editorial and magazines and newspapers.
• 46:22
  Speaker 5: He is just so sharp with his responses.
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: But that is like.
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Responding to the original haters of the haters of his day.
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, I mean he's like he doesn't hold anything back,
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: and it's just it's really awesome.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta pick who you mince words with. I
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: think Edward Hay is quite the sword. Yeah with the
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: pen right, so.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: And I mean it's like just pretty brilliant guy too.
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, he usually has an answer for anything
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: that has to do with the outdoors and conservation and wilderness.
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: He has something or a few things to say about it.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great and which I think is a nice
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: segue into you two have both spent some time becase
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: coming certified with Leave No Trace. You are both Leave
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: No Trace instructors, and you've spent energy around that oz,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: which I think is so important today more than ever
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: because of the amount of people that are in the
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: back country, and as overlanders, we not only have the
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: responsibility for how we use the vehicle, which is typically
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: going to align with tread lightly, but we also have
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: the responsibility of being backcountry campers as well, and hikers,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: and with native lands and with aboriginal sites as well.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: We have a lot of responsibility as overlanders because we
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: see all of those things, that we touch all those
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: things in some way. So let's maybe talk for a
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: few minutes about with the explosion of overlanding and the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: number of people that are getting into the back country,
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: what are some things that we can do as overlanders
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: to reduce our impact to these beautiful places that we
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: love and want to come back to.
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think that's such a great question,
• 47:56
  Speaker 4: and there's a lot we can do. There's so much
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: we can do. First off, it's like learning what leave
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: no traces? So you can easily go to the website
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: and look up the seven principles and kind of just
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: get an introductory level of what leave no traces. And
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: it's a framework, so it's not going to give you
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: the answer, the number one answer all the time. It's
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: a framework to think about how you're what your impact
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: is on these spaces, and how perhaps you can leave
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: less of an impact.
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: That's the whole framework. I think.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: The first principle, for example, is plan ahead and prepare.
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: In the context of things. This is an important one
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: for overlanding because we want that balance of like freedom
• 48:28
  Speaker 4: and being able to find a new place and explore
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: an adventure. But oftentimes if places are crowded, there might
• 48:33
  Speaker 4: not be camp sites that are established that are available,
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: and if you don't know, find out how many sites
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: there are, or potentially have a backup in mind of
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: where you can go if this first site or second
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: site or third site doesn't work out, then you might
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: be thinking it's okay to kind of create a new
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: site or go off road exactly go off road here.
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: And that's definitely one of the things that we're seeing
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: happening right now where more people are getting outside, which
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: is incredible, but just not knowing the capacity of the
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: places that we're going to. When there is a limited capacity,
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: there are a limited number of vehicles that can fit
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: there or humans that can be there.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: So I think that's a great place to start.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's an excellent place to start.
• 49:10
  Speaker 5: I think dispose of waste properly, which is another one
• 49:12
  Speaker 5: of the principles, is awesome and I think it's almost
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: even more applicable to the overlanding community. We have this
• 49:18
  Speaker 5: amazing resource which is our vehicle. Right, Like, when you're
• 49:22
  Speaker 5: on foot, your capacity to carry trash out, to leave
• 49:25
  Speaker 5: things better than you found it is somewhat limited. But
• 49:28
  Speaker 5: when you have a vehicle, you just have so much
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: more capacity. So that can start with not leaving your
• 49:34
  Speaker 5: own trash behind, and it can expand to removing trash
• 49:38
  Speaker 5: that other people leave behind. And I think within that
• 49:40
  Speaker 5: category something that maybe is squeamish for some people to
• 49:44
  Speaker 5: talk about, but you know, using the bathroom in the
• 49:46
  Speaker 5: back country, I think all Overlanders should get themselves some
• 49:50
  Speaker 5: sort of a portable toilet solution that can carry on
• 49:53
  Speaker 5: their rig. You almost there's almost no excuse to be
• 49:55
  Speaker 5: digging a hole in the back country and pooping in it. Now,
• 49:58
  Speaker 5: that is how Leave No Trace would educate us to
• 50:02
  Speaker 5: you know, dispose of human waste properly. And again it's
• 50:05
  Speaker 5: a framework, so I'm not saying this is the only way.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like if you're on a motorcycle, that's not feasible
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: or it's much more difficult.
• 50:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there are wag bags, you know, like
• 50:14
  Speaker 5: there are solutions, it's more difficult, and you know, I
• 50:17
  Speaker 5: think it comes also back to plan ahead and prepare.
• 50:20
  Speaker 5: It depends on the environment you're in. You know, some
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: environments are are more capable to deal with human waste
• 50:25
  Speaker 5: than other ones. So like here in Arizona and in
• 50:28
  Speaker 5: the Mountain West, the High Desert, it's not an environment
• 50:31
  Speaker 5: that is that really deals well with human waste. It's
• 50:34
  Speaker 5: it's very dry out here, and so things don't decompose
• 50:37
  Speaker 5: very quickly, you know. So I think like a five
• 50:40
  Speaker 5: gallon bucket with compact you know, trash compactor bags and
• 50:43
  Speaker 5: a seat that snaps on and a little bit of
• 50:45
  Speaker 5: a something to add to the bag to keep.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Things, yeah, manageable.
• 50:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, is a really easy thing to do.
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: It'll save you time digging holes in the back country.
• 50:53
  Speaker 5: And then you just you know, you wrap all that up,
• 50:55
  Speaker 5: you take it out.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: With you and you leave.
• 50:59
  Speaker 5: On the spirit you have to go inside your rig,
• 51:02
  Speaker 5: you know, put it up on your roofrack whatever. But
• 51:04
  Speaker 5: you know, it's it doesn't take a lot to do
• 51:07
  Speaker 5: that and can really help some of these places. I mean,
• 51:09
  Speaker 5: like the Moab area sees so many people and if
• 51:12
  Speaker 5: you think about every person that's visiting and having to
• 51:15
  Speaker 5: dig a hole once or twice a day, I mean,
• 51:17
  Speaker 5: it's like where does that all go?
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, A little pro tip for those that are listening.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: If you take that wag bag and you stick it
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: in like an Ammo can on the roof rack and
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: it sits out in the sun in Arizona for a
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: couple of days, make sure you again plan ahead.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: Maybe not the roof rack. Don't listen.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: No, no, no. I think that there are times where
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: the roof rack works, but in my experience there was
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: times that it didn't work. But these are all good
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: things to talk about. And I one of the things
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: that I really like about leave no trace and tread lightly.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: These are a political organizations. They're not saying that this
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: is left or right or whatever. It's just we all
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: grew up with the idea of let's leave these places
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: better than we found them. That is. It's that simple.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: It's it's just the extension of the golden rule, like
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: be a good human, Like let's we're going to these
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: beautiful places. Don't you want your grandchildren to see them
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: just as beautiful as you do? And I think that
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: that's the whole framework of them is this is not
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: a political thing. It's not even an environmentalist thing. It's
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: just something very practical of let's leave these pretty spots
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: that we may want to come back to in ten years,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: Let's leave them better when we leave. And I think
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: that your idea around the trash is such a great one.
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: We've talked about that before on the podcast. Is just
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: have a good sized trash bag with you. Not only
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: pack up all your own trash, but find any trash
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: that you can in the campsite. You know, there's been
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: very well documented studies that if you can make the
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: place look clean, it will stay clean longer. Even someone
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: who is less inclined to do that. When they come
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: to a clean campsite, they are much less likely to
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: leave trash behind, Whereas if they come to the campsite
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: and it's trashed, they are going to be far more
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: inclined to just throw that La Croix can out into
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: the pile of all the other ones. Whereas if we
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: can clean up the campsite, we're giving it a better
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: chance the next time a group shows up. Speaking of groups,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: and this is kind of the last thing that I
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: want to include on this because I do think that
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: this topic needs to be covered in more detail. But
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I'm seeing in our communities
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: is larger and larger groups of overland travelers. Most of
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: these campsites in the back country can handle two, three,
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: on rare occasions, four or five vehicles. If you're traveling
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: in a group of fifteen people, just ask yourself, why
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: would I do that when the backcountry is not set
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: up to handle that size of a group. Now, if
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: you do a lot of planning in ahead of time,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: and you know that I can get from this big
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: group site to this next giant group site, or I'm
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: going to camp on the Plaia where it could handle
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: a group of one hundred, then that makes a lot
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: more sense. But I think when we're seeing groups of
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: twenty go across the Mojave Road and shoving a bunch
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: of trucks into small campsites, they get slowly and incrementally
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: larger terrain gets damaged, and then they get shut down.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: The Forest Service or the BLM will just come in
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: and put it this campsite's closed because it's now a.
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: Trash heat So yeah, totally, and that's really unfortunate for
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: all of us.
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: It is, And I think that if we just if
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: we take a little bit of responsibility as a community,
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: then we can improve the outcomes and the likelihood that
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: we get to continue to access I mean places.
• 54:19
  Speaker 5: That's the thing with anything that takes place in you know,
• 54:21
  Speaker 5: on public lands and the outdoors. I mean, the amount
• 54:23
  Speaker 5: of infrastructure and federal employees that are out there to
• 54:27
  Speaker 5: help manage these sites is so limited, you know, and
• 54:30
  Speaker 5: I think we almost have to just think of ourselves
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: as like a self regulating group. We kind of have
• 54:34
  Speaker 5: to approach it in that way. We have to, we
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: have to take the initiative. You know. It's again, it's
• 54:38
  Speaker 5: not shouldn't be politically motivated. It's not about you know,
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: who you vote for. It's just about this resource that
• 54:44
  Speaker 5: we all love and taking care of it. And if
• 54:46
  Speaker 5: you think about that group of twenty, you know, if
• 54:47
  Speaker 5: they divide up into five groups to camp and if
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: every one of those cars picked up two pieces of trash, like,
• 54:53
  Speaker 5: think about the positive impact it could have. I mean,
• 54:54
  Speaker 5: I know I haven't participated in it, but I like
• 54:57
  Speaker 5: the Gambler five hundred is always like in the back
• 55:00
  Speaker 5: of my mind, just because I think the culture of
• 55:02
  Speaker 5: it seems super interesting. Yeah, for sure, and they do
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: a lot of cleanup work I didn't realize, but it's
• 55:08
  Speaker 5: just really refreshing because I don't always think of like
• 55:10
  Speaker 5: the four wheel drivers or community being a community that's
• 55:13
  Speaker 5: really concerned with that, But that just has totally changed
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: my outlook on that, and it's going. I mean they
• 55:19
  Speaker 5: haul out like I see them hauling out like wrecked
• 55:21
  Speaker 5: cars and boats and just like truck clothes.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the most random stuff.
• 55:25
  Speaker 5: And so that's so cool, So that that could be
• 55:27
  Speaker 5: like a really awesome group of people look to. They
• 55:30
  Speaker 5: organize cleanups everywhere, like throughout the year, it's not just
• 55:33
  Speaker 5: when they're doing the race.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe that's the way to do it. If
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: it's a little bit bigger group or your club has
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: that ten twelve members or whatever that you put some
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: kind of a charter behind your trip of like Okay,
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: we're going to do this to make this place better
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: and we leave it. I think those are all ways
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: for us to take responsibility over our own own activities.
• 55:52
  Speaker 4: So yeah, absolutely, And I think the other thing, just
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: to chime in with this last point is around how
• 55:57
  Speaker 4: we talk about leave not trees. And there's a lot
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: of great resources I'll send people back to leave no trace,
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: so definitely go there for more resources. But yes, dot org, Yeah,
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: I feel like a lot of times when you start
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: learning about these things, you get very passionate about it,
• 56:11
  Speaker 4: which is a great thing. But then you have to
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: remember that not everybody has the same level of education
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: as you do, and they're not at their same leave
• 56:17
  Speaker 4: no trace journey. And so the way that you bring
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: these topics up to others who are out in public lands,
• 56:23
  Speaker 4: there's a lot to learn there about how you communicate
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: with people. And again it's a framework, so there are
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: Matt's suggestion to carry out your human waste is probably
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: something we should all try to That should be our
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: standard that we're reaching towards.
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: But not everybody knows about that.
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: Not every everybody has been taught, not everybody is aware
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: of the science behind things, and just trying to get
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: people where they are. If you did want to have
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: a conversation with someone their resources again on leave no
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: trace about how to approach these things. If things, if
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: your conversation isn't going well, then you know there's only
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: so much you can do, and leading that example is
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: always the best starting point.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: So the best starting point is always us and our
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: own acts. I remember when I was reinvolved with TRED
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: lightly a lot of the training that I got with
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: tred Lightley was how to have those conversations with other
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: foul drivers of like, look, if we keep making all
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: of these new trails, they're going to shut this whole
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: thing down and none of us get to have any fun.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: It's that simple. It's just like that, there's consequences for
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: our behavior, but it's it is a difficult thing to
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: have a conversation about because people can be intimidated by
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: that or offended by that. And the last thing that
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: we want to do is our own version of some
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: very poorly constructed virtue signaling towards some other human I mean,
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: I make mistakes every single day that I'm worthy of
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: being judged for, So the last thing that I want
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: to do is judge others for their own actions when
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: they're not really trying to be bad. But that's the
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: great thing about a platform like this podcast, or like
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: Expedition Portal and Overland Journal and all of the other
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: great organizations that are out there, is that if we
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: can just raise the conversation a little bit of like, hey,
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: let's just try to keep access to these trails, this
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: is where we want to go. Let's keep them open
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: for a little bit longer. So was there awesome points.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: It's both of you. I appreciate you both you both
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: sharing that.
• 58:02
  Speaker 5: So a lot of stuff has come up in like
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: the last couple of years where people are actually using
• 58:06
  Speaker 5: the framework to shame others for trying but not quite
• 58:10
  Speaker 5: hitting maybe the highest mark that others are And that's
• 58:13
  Speaker 5: the last thing we want to do. I mean, we
• 58:14
  Speaker 5: all love the outdoors and we want to encourage people
• 58:16
  Speaker 5: to play out there, and if we give people a
• 58:19
  Speaker 5: hard time for trying, you know, you're going to turn
• 58:22
  Speaker 5: them away. And as a MANA said, everyone's on their
• 58:24
  Speaker 5: own journey. You kind of have to meet people where
• 58:26
  Speaker 5: they're at and maybe offer some education. But you know,
• 58:28
  Speaker 5: we never want to make people feel bad about trying Totally.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: Any form of virtue shaming or signaling like that is
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: always a zero sum game. No one wins. Yeah, the
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: person that's signaling, you can tell that they're signaling, and
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: then they look pathetic, and then the person who's being
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: signaled against now they feel bad about themselves. Everybody has
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: lost in that. So let's make it a positive some
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: game of like start with ourselves, with our own family,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: with our own community, our own club. Try to make
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: things a little better, and believe it or not, it's
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: all going to make a difference, and I think in
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: a very positive way. So you're right, we don't want
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: to start shaming others for trying, Like what a terrible thought,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: but I think that's where the world's come to in
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: some ways.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: It happens a lot.
• 59:07
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know social media and the entry again,
• 59:09
  Speaker 5: and that gives people a platform to say whatever they
• 59:12
  Speaker 5: want almost anonymously. People that you know are having a
• 59:15
  Speaker 5: bad day sometimes they just go on there and they
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: let loose, and you know, it really causes the more
• 59:19
  Speaker 5: a lot more problems than it provides solutions.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: It just shuts down the conversation and then no one's
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: learning anything exactly. We're just talking over each other, right, So,
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: thank you both so much for being on the podcast today.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: I have it's been such a pleasure to get to
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: know you Amanda and your skills. Thank you so much
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: for all of your insights that you've given us around
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: YouTube and the things that you do professionally. Then Matt,
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're just total rock star man. You have
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: just done such an awesome job on Expedition Portal and
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: for those that are listening when you go onto Expedition Portal,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: you'll oftentimes see Matt's name on the bio for the
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: article that you're reading. So this is the guy that's
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: that's making all that great content happen and working closely
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: with the other editors on Expedition Portal to make that
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: content so solid. And Matt also contributes regularly to Overland
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: Journal as well. Where can people find out more about
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: the two of you and your travels and your upcoming journeys.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so the best place to learn about me and
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: my business is Amanda Winter dot com. I also have
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: an Instagram at Amanda dot Winther. I mostly share fund
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: travel stuff on the Instagram, so if you want some
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 4: of that, you can see paragliding photos or a lot
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: of photos that Matt takes that I post because he's
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: a photographer. We also have an Instagram together. It's being
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 4: used as much, but you can see some of our
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: previous travels at Van dot project. So if you want
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: to see the campra van, all of that is captured there.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 5: My personal Instagram account is m dot b dot Sports,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 5: And like Amanda said, I mean I mostly just share photos.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: That's a great account though. Yeah, very stuff, Like your
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: dog is so charming, like it's your duck's name again,
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: Royal Royal. He's great. I love like you had this one,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: like perfectly framed backlit model photo of your puppies. It
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: was such a great photo.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 5: We don't have a human child, but we have that child.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 5: Nothing wrong with for baby's nothing wrong with a baby.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: He's front and center.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, thank you guys again so much for being
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: on the podcast, and we will talk to you all
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: next time.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: Excellent. Thanks Scott, thank you, thank you.