Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / Orpheus Heyward | Family With Differences | BP2 Season 2 Episode 18
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Orpheus Heyward, welcome to the Better Preaching Podcast. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Good to be here, my friend. Excited to be in conversation. Dr. Frank Weller: As am I. Hey, we met through our mutual friends at the Solomon Foundation. And then you came to campus in 2023 as our commencement speaker. And by Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: the way, people are still talking about that message. So Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Wow. Wow. Dr. Frank Weller: do me a favor, just tell our listeners about the church you serve and how God is using you in this season. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah, I served the Renaissance Church of Christ and I've been there since two thousand three. I got there as the assisting minister and I became the minister in two thousand seven. I transitioned with a gentleman named Wesley Brown. And from there the church I gave leadership to the church in a in in a difficult time that we're coming through not a not a crisis or anything, but just a time of had some plans, but the plans fell through and and the church had some a period of time of being dismayed and we just really tried to use the gospel of Jesus Christ to rebuild and encourage the church. And we experienced exponential growth and before long the church was was packed and we didn't have seats, didn't have parking and all of the great things and that led to a building project which transitioned us from West End Church of Christ to Renaissance Church of Christ, which is what it's called now. have wonderful leaders that I work with, and these men are quite visionary themselves and just have a really wonderful working relationship. But Renaissance, I consider it a contemporary church that is biblically grounded. So we try to remain true to scripture while being creative in methodology. And so that's our story and I love Renaissance. Been there now, I think it's almost twenty years. so I think it's eighteen years. I've been the minister 18. so it's been Dr. Frank Weller: And you came from New York, right? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: that's correct. I grew up in New York. was baptized in New York City under my uncle Cornelius Heyward and he was the one who taught me the gospel and and got my feet grounded and mentored me and all of the great things. until of course I became mentored by the the great doctor WF Washington. Dr. Frank Weller: So I've been told that in New York everybody's from New York and in Atlanta nobody's from Atlanta. So Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Right, right. Dr. Frank Weller: I don't know how true that is, but what's what what have you noticed that's different between your time, you know, growing up in New York and now Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Mm. Dr. Frank Weller: serving in Atlanta? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: You know what's interesting? And it in New York, it's very fast paced. it's it's a lot of movement, a lot of transit, meaning while many people drive, transit is very easy in terms of getting on the train, the bus. That's the normal way in which I traveled growing up. And Atlanta is only different in that its transit is not as robust as New York's. But Atlanta's just as fast. The traffic is equivalent. So I feel very at home Dr. Frank Weller: man, the traffic. Oof. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: in Atlanta and that the traffic is just the same. but different parts of Atlanta actually resemble New York in a lot of ways. and so you know I live in in Buckhead right now and it's it's I can walk everywhere just like in New York City. You can walk everywhere. And so I think there's a lot of equivalency. I promise you, most of the population in Atlanta is from New York. That's how it feels. It's just everybody came from New York and just migrated to Atlanta. Dr. Frank Weller: I've been on the Marta Orpheus and I it for a midwestern guy like me, that feels like big city. I don't know for a New Yorker like Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Right, right. Dr. Frank Weller: you, it's probably small time, but Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah, I get that. Completely get that. Dr. Frank Weller: Tell me how you came to be a part of the restoration movement. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: so once again, through Cornelius Heyward, my uncle, he really gave me my start into the restoration movement, of course, within the fabric of churches of Christ. I would say as time progressed, there was always great ambiguity and and difference with Churches of Christ and independent Christian church that I did not fully understand until much later. But it was kind of normality in that time that there was no real mixing or there was no real overlap between the two, that we were distinct groups, even though we came from the same root, we we kept a degree of separation. through time and study, I began to fight for a more unified perspective that if we all accept the same gospel and we all believe in the same sovereign Jesus, we can at least admit we're family and we can be family with difference. but we don't need to ignore that we are family. And so I've become a voice of of a voice crying in the wilderness, fighting for that, relative to African American Churches of Christ and independent Christian church. And you know, my thing has been we're one body. We've accepted the same gospel, but we do have differences that we can talk through and dialogue through. And I think conversation is how you get to a good space. And so that's how I kind of got involved. Solomon Foundation played a big part in that. because of course they were instrumental in funding our building, and through conversation with them, it was like, wow, these are not just lenders, they're actually brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, predicated on their acceptance of the gospel and things of that nature. So the more we talked, the more I realized we were actually one body with difference. And so that's how I became more acquainted with the restoration movement and the independent Christian church. Dr. Frank Weller: And and you know, you've really opened my eyes to the movement within the movement. So one of the Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: relationships I've come to value is my friendship with Jerry Harris, the publisher of Christian Standard. I know Jerry's a friend of yours too. Jerry Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: yes, yes, absolutely. Dr. Frank Weller: Jerry was on campus here at GLCC a few years back and he talked about the rich heritage of of black churches of Christ. It was a fascinating conversation on so Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Right. Dr. Frank Weller: many levels. Orpheus, who are some of the preachers in black churches of Christ that have had an impact on the movement and on you? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah, so probably the individual that's most known regarding the restoration movement, or most maybe revered if I can use that term, would be Marshall Kebel. Marshall Kebel was a very much a strong proponent of the gospel of Christ. We absolutely celebrate his ministry in as much as he's baptized a plethora of people with very simplistic preaching. It was the we call it the profanity of simplicity. He was profound, but he was simple. And he is certainly a strong proponent of of what we would consider New Testament Christianity. From him, you have several men that were very much called the Keble Boys. And the Keble Boys were those who attended Nashville Christian Institute and and those outside that traveled with Marshall Kebel. This is where you get men like Fred Gray, you get men like W.F. Washington, who was my mentor. and you have men like you have others such as I forget all of their names in that era, but you have Fred Gray, you had I believe Dr. Ev Dr. Jack Evans may have been one who traveled with Marshall Keeble on some level. Dr. RC Wells, at least I know they went to Natural Christian Institute. I know they attended the school. And then again, he had those who actually traveled with him. So I know travel partners were Fred Gray, it would also be WF Washington and several others. so those men became very much great leaders in the black churches of Christ, African American churches of Christ. on another side of the fence out of that movement would be like GP Bowser. didn't come from Marshall Keeble, but we had a different school of thought, but Marshall excuse me, GP Bowser was a great proponent and led to the establishment of Southwestern Christian College, which is our historical black college. under the guidance now of Irving, Dr. Irving Seamster. And we find that men like Aaron Hogan, who was a very powerful voice within the African American church. Of course, he's past now, but he was of dominant influence among black preachers and many others. I'm naming just a few, but these men were really dominant names of that period of time and have influenced black churches of Christ for, as far as I'm concerned, for many years to come. Dr. Frank Weller: I love that you can you can trace your spiritual ancestry, one generation removed from from Marshall Keeble. That's pretty special. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's incredible. And I I credit my mentor for that. Dr. WF Washington is considered one of the they call him the Prince of Preachers and he's just an incredible voice, an incredible orator, an incredible debater, and he has been a dominant influence. Dr. Frank Weller: Fred Gray was actually in Lansing a couple of years ago for our Martin Luther King celebration. And he Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Okay. Dr. Frank Weller: he's widely respected well beyond the Churches of Christ for Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: yeah. Sure. Dr. Frank Weller: his work within the civil rights movement. And what a tr Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: yes. Dr. Frank Weller: what a tremendous individual. And and I think that w we often often overlook the impact of churches of Christ preachers on the civil rights movement. We just don't know about it. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Fred Gray is as you know, was an incredible lawyer in the civil rights movement. extr extremely educated. We had the opportunity a few years back to honor him at the at Lipscomb University. And it was a really proud celebration of his legacy, his impact, and we had a wonderful time, just celebrating all of the accomplishments that he has had within the fabric of his his legacy and so He's a tremendous super humble. I mean, he's incredibly humble. And if you didn't know who he was, he wouldn't tell you. You know, he's just an incredible guy. Dr. Frank Weller: Orpheus, tell us more about your calling. Was it sudden? Was there s is there a specific moment you can point to or was it something that that occurred over time? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: I think when when we speak about the calling on my personal life, I would say I became aware of my desire to become a preacher when I was about eight years old. I wrote a poem, as my mother still has it, saying I want to be an angel of the Lord. And and saying I wanna be an angel of the Lord. It was about three or four, as you can imagine eight years old, so it wasn't very oratorically. sound, but it was just the notion I want to tell people about you and your ways. And it was a very short thing. And my mother saved it. So I would say at eight years old I became aware of my desire to be a proclaimer on behalf of God. And it the next time it really became a reality for me was in nineteen ninety six when I was baptized into Christ Jesus, not long thereafter I expressed to my uncle that I wanted to be a preacher. And I began my journey at Sunset School Sens Sunset Bible Institute, I think is what it was called at the time, and they had satellite schools and things of that nature. And I would spend six hours studying every day. And and so I would say I became aware at eight and then I fully stepped into that calling in nineteen ninety-nine. Yeah, nineteen ninety nine I think I fully stepped into it. Dr. Frank Weller: Orpheus, you really see preaching as a calling and not a career, don't you? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That is absolutely right. I had to be reminded of that. You know, as you progress in this profession, you can very well see it as a career, as a ladder to climb. and God has a way over time of reminding you that this is a calling and not a career. And so I I believe those are two distinct things. I think the calling suggests that you accept and fulfill the assignment God gives. In a career. is more self-centered. You thinking about how you can elevate within a particular a particular str a particular journey. And so I believe there are times when preachers we can begin to view it as a career and forget that it is dominantly a calling. Dr. Frank Weller: I think though that all of us who I mean we talk it we we call it soul winning, right? We we want to win. And and Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Mm. Right. Dr. Frank Weller: there's, you know, we we we want to I don't know, I think I think a lot of preachers are are competitive, you know, Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: and and so you know, we want to win, we want to grow a church, we we have ambitions. I think those are holy ambitions, Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: but that we're we're treading a fine line, aren't we, between being faithful to a calling and And boy, I I don't know how to I don't necessarily know how to describe it. Not up not being upwardly mobile or ambitious, but at the same time, I mean we we want it we want to elevate and so that's that's something we wrestle with. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah, absolutely. I think there is a very real proclivity of humanity that you want to climb in whatever field you're in. You you want to climb, you want to be great, you want to build legacy, you wanna build reputation. And that happens within church. You want to build a very powerful church, a church that is progressive, a church that is forward moving. And in those moments we can find ourselves losing the focus that this is an assignment to saturate the world with the gospel of Christ Jesus, to plant seeds wherever we possibly can. And I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to be effective. I just think your motive has to be very clear that whatever effectiveness you're attempting to cultivate, it needs to be for the ultimate purpose of kingdom expansion. And so I think it comes to motive in in many ways. Dr. Frank Weller: I think that's why it's so important that we have people in our lives that we're in community, folks who are gonna hold us accountable to make sure that we're approaching Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: our our ministry with the right motive. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That is absolutely right. Yeah. You need voices in your ear to remind you to be sober. That's important. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah. As you've become more familiar with your Stone Campbell cousins, what if anything has surprised you about the places where we are really aligned in faith and practice? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: I love that question. fundamentally, where we have been aligned in many ways, and I I'm very careful about trying to speak f and bucket everybody, because you can't speak for everyone, but the independent Christian church to which is to which I have had contact, I have found incredible alignment regarding the preaching and teaching of the gospel, the process by which one is saved. I have found alignment in regards to convictions regarding moral ethics, convictions regarding the second coming, convictions regarding a great many things that I think we are we find alignment. And so I'm very careful that to be one body does not mean we have to agree on every conceivable subject or every conceivable theological position. I think we can find oneness. On what's core to Christianity, and yet work through the various areas where we may have some divergence. But I have found great alignment with a strong ethic toward the gospel, salvation, the importance of the Lord's Supper, and things of that nature. I have been very surprised that, wow, that how little did I know regarding the places where there were in fact some agreements. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, and I've often said that if I were to move to a a community where there wasn't an independent Christian church, or maybe even if there was, I would have very little trepidation or concern about worshiping with a traditional Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: church of Christ because there is just such consistent alignment. And I think one of the challenges is because the the division between the disciples of Christ denomination and independent Christian churches took place relatively late in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: That's right. Mm-hmm. Dr. Frank Weller: There have been so many in the from the earlier schism that just don't really see the the the differentiation. And and it's significant. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: It is. And I try to constantly make that clear is that the disciples of Christ is a different entity, to which I am not referring to them when I think about those who remain orthodox in the restoration movement. The independent Christian church I think has held to some very strong cores that I think allow us to be aligned and allow us to have really great conversation. And so I'm glad you made that distinction because that that is important. Dr. Frank Weller: Having said that, I've noticed that every time, every time someone in quote unquote our branch of the movement has reached across the aisle to pursue unity with like-minded brothers and sisters, that effort has cost them. And I and I I know you've Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: my goodness. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: been attacked for your ecumenicity. What what's given you the strength to press on in in the face of some of those those attacks? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: well, one is of course, not to be cliche, but I think God has been a strength here. I know he's been my strength here. But number two, conviction. most who know me know that I believe very har very holistically in textual fidelity. I believe that you allow the text to form your theology and that you handle scripture in a way where you can be respectful of God's intent. And because I have such conviction there, scripture is my authority and never the endorsement of a brotherhood or the endorsement of people or the endorsement of preachers. my goal is let God be the authority and let the text speak, and you form your conclusions based on that. And so for me, my strength has been God first and foremost, but also the conviction that scripture has allowed me to experience. through an expositional approach. And so whenever you said it correctly, when you start reaching across the aisle, you become a target because we have formed a mentality of exclusivism. And exclusivism is very dangerous because it borders a cultic mentality. And Dr. Frank Weller: Mm-hmm. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: if we're not careful, we're more in love with believing we're the only ones, as opposed to celebrating oneness in Christ Jesus predicated on the gospel. And so I think within Churches of Christ, we've developed an exclusivistic mentality that has suggested that only those within our lines of fellowship can be constituted Christians. And I think that mentality is just wrong. And so I have been attacked in many ways, but in other ways, God has expanded my stage because I've reached across the aisles and because I'm trying to build bridges, the Lord has been very gracious. in how he has positioned me. So I definitely have experienced my share of a plethora to this day. To this day it's been difficult. Dr. Frank Weller: And you're you're really part of a a a lineage of brothers from the restoration move from the a cappella churches that going all the way, Rick Ashley comes to mind, Max Luceto, but even all the way back to Carl Ketcher's side, Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: men who've who've really tried to pursue unity within within the two branches of the restoration movement. And boy, Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Mm. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: I applaud you for that. I think that's an important work and and we need to both be about it. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Thank you so much. Yeah, Rick Atchley is a good friend. And I've received quite I was groomed to attack men like Rick Atchley. And and the my upbringing was very much in regards to viewing men like him as liberal. But through conversation and getting to know him, I have found that he is a tremendous mind. his attempt toward unity and his passion for uniting the streams, I was very much appreciative. And and much of his work I agree with and we're friends to this day. So I'm I'm grateful for his work and who he is. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, I'm glad to know that. I'm gonna I'm gonna lean on you to to put the finger on him for the Better Preaching Podcast. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah, there we go. Dr. Frank Weller: let's imagine for a minute that I put you in the classroom to teach a course titled Lessons in Preaching from a Church of Christ Brother. What Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: are some topics you'd emphasize to your students? Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: If I was going to do it from a church church of Christ lens, I think topics that would be important, and I know this may be sound a bit redundant, but salvation. a strong Christology. I think in churches of Christ we've maintained a very strong Christology relative to the sovereignty of Jesus, the incarnation of Jesus, his divinity. what has what he accomplishes in the death, burial, and resurrection, and responding by faith, culminating in repentance and baptism for the remission of sins. Those those would be like important subjects from a Church of Christ lens. and core things like the importance of the second coming and and how we prepare for the second coming. so eschatology would be. Another important subject. If I was preaching from a Church of Christ Lens, worship would be an important subject matter. that the first century church gathered as a community of people to engage in praising God through song and celebrating the meal of the Lord's Supper as we celebrate that his death accomplished salvation, giving and prayer and the place of preaching within the assembly experience. Those would be topics. That are important to churches of Christ, and I think rightfully so. and so if if I was trying to teach from that lens, those would be some great subjects. Salvation, worship, eschatology, things of that nature would be the divinity of Jesus, those would be major subject matters for. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, the the authority of scripture. i everything Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: The authority of scripture for sure. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: you're saying would align really closely, certainly with what we teach here at Great Lakes Christian College and and within Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Mm. Dr. Frank Weller: the broader independent Christian churches and churches of Christ. And I think that's why people are waking up to the fact that there is just such alignment, that we're brothers in Christ. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Absolutely. The authority of scripture is a very strong ethic within churches of Christ. while there is some disagreement on how we apply that authority and how we are interpreting that authority, I absolutely love that the heritage of churches of Christ have allowed me to gain a very strong perspective on the authority of scripture and doctrinal fidelity. I think those are great ethics. We may not agree on every single conceivable thing. But those are some strong ethics that I think anybody should hold to as it relates to. Dr. Frank Weller: I agree. Yeah, and while we can while w there is some disagreement on how we apply a hermeneutic to the text, I think there's wide agreement on all scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness. so Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Yes, yes. That is absolutely right. Dr. Frank Weller: well, I am just delighted that we got to spend this time together. It's hard to believe that we've burned through a half an hour already. I know I yeah, yeah. Dr. Orpheus J. Heyward: Wow. Dr. Frank Weller: We're out of time. But hey, I want to thank you, Dr. Heyward. I want to thank our sponsor, Great Lakes Christian College. Orpheus is going to be back for another episode next week, and you won't want to miss it. We're going to go deeper into the topic of preaching and learn more about Dr. Heyward's commitment to exegetical depth. So do me a favor and subscribe to the Better Preaching Podcast wherever you get your podcast. Like us and rate us. Follow us on social media and check out the website at betterpreaching.org. Thanks for listening to. And supporting the Better Preaching podcast, finally join us next time for another insightful conversation because better preaching makes a bigger impact.