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Negotiation … and Betrayal! · Pick Up and Deliver

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  Welcome to Pick Up and Deliver, the podcast where I pick up my microphone as I step out
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  the door and deliver an episode to you while I walk the dog.
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  I'm Brendan Riley.
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  Welcome morning listeners.
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  It's a lovely day here in suburban Chicago.
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  The sun is out.
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  The cicadas are buzzing angrily.
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  Hopefully they're not going to dive bomb me too much today, but if they do as always
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  I'll put it in as an outtake at the end of the episode.
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  I actually didn't have one last time, which was relatively nice.
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  Rare, but nice.
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  So I played A Handful of Stars recently.
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  I'll talk about that on a board game espresso episode as my dusty game.
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  But there was a moment of intense betrayal maybe or at least surprise and it made me want
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  to talk a little bit about games where people negotiate and how those games function,
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  what kinds of things you can expect and what I enjoy about them and don't enjoy about
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  them.
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  So as I was thinking about it, obviously there are lots of different kinds of negotiation
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  games in some ways an auction game might be considered a negotiation game in some ways.
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  There are games where you literally are negotiating where you do business deals.
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  Hey, I'll sell you this for that.
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  Think of like Catan where you might have a thing that you want and the other person has
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  the thing that they want and so you negotiate a deal.
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  Actually that strikes me as the third kind of negotiation game that I did not say.
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  So we're going to, oh no I didn't.
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  I did.
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  It's here.
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  So what I wanted to do is talk about like I have three different kinds of negotiation games
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  and I want to talk a little bit about how those games work, what they're like and again
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  the things I like or dislike about them.
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  So let's start with economic negotiation games.
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  So I mentioned Catan already.
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  Catan of course has a built-in set of economic negotiation needs.
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  They need the specific set of resources to do things and you get those by trading resources.
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  There's one dive bomb already.
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  You get those by trading resources with one another and often you're trying to figure
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  out at what rate you want to trade them so that everybody can get a good deal or get what
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  they want.
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  This is a useful way to approach the question of examples of this other than Catan are
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  games where you might be selling resources to one another trying to get resources.
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  And perhaps the my favorite of those is sidereal confluence.
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  sidereal confluence is a large player count game.
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  It's really fun with like six or more and in that game you are trading things with other
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  people.
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  The premise is there's a bunch of aliens you've come together to have a trading conference
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  and the whole game is built around the idea of trading things.
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  The game works, each society has things they need and things they make and often they don't
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  need what they make.
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  This makes sense of course.
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  And so what you're trying to do is build up systems where you make things that other people
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  want so they'll give you the things that you want and then you have to get into place scoring
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  objectives that allow you to get points.
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  So the game is if you've ever played Furnace or something like that where you have a lot
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  of conversion cards where you'll turn one iron into two steel or something those are what
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  the engines are like.
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  What the machines are like in Sidereal Confluence.
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  Everybody's got these different machines that convert resources into different resources.
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  And the whole gimmick is that everybody's got slightly different sets of these machines
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  and machines that do slightly different things.
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  And so you negotiate with one another to get what you need.
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  And so this really clever bit where you research technology and you get it for the round
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  that you created it and then everybody else gets it the next round.
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  And you get points for being the one who found that technology and shared it with everyone.
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  You don't get to choose not to share it.
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  So the fun thing about Sidereal Confluence in particular, other negotiation gives in general,
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  is the idea that you're going to make deals with people.
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  You're going to make plans that involve a variety of different kinds of exchanges, economic
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  is the one thing you hear.
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  Now the big difference in something like Sidereal Confluence over other games like Catan would
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  be that in Sidereal Confluence any deals you make are binding.
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  If both people agree to the deal, you have to do it.
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  And the game does have in the rules a system for if somehow you make a deal and then you
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  are literally unable to make the follow through.
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  But the way the game is designed, that's not supposed to happen.
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  And you definitely can't actively choose to do that.
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  You definitely can't choose to not honor a deal that you made if it's possible to honor.
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  So if you say, "Hey, if you give me three white cubes this round, I'll give you three black
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  cubes next round."
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  Then next round you say, "No, I'm not going to give you those cubes."
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  You can't do that.
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  Sideereal Confluence very specifically does not allow deception or sabotage or betrayal in
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  the trading part.
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  In fact, at all, there is no way to sabotage or betray somebody.
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  You could just out negotiate them.
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  A game like Catan doesn't really have rules that allow for long term trades.
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  It doesn't really have a thing where like, if you give me two stone now, I'll give you
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  the next three wood that I get.
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  I don't know if those are allowed in Catan or if I haven't looked at Catan's rules to
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  see like, "Does it let you choose not to follow through on your deal?"
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  But I generally, I think economic games, particularly, I like sideereal confluence because it does
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  have the economic negotiation that I find interesting, but it also has very specifically
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  rules that does not allow for deception, which I like.
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  There are certain times that I, the big thing for me is I want everyone to be on the same
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  page when it comes to negotiation and I feel like deception in an economic game violates
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  that in some ways because it becomes hard to know when you're negotiating good faith
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  and when not, which is, you know, for some games that's part of the way it is.
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  So that's economic negotiation games.
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  I think I've said the good and the bad.
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  I don't, I'm trying to think if there are economic negotiation games I actively don't like.
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  I can't think of any, but I honestly haven't played that many other than sideereal confluence
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  and Catan.
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  I'm having trouble thinking of any that I've played.
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  I'm sure there are some where you're, "Hey, I'll give you this, I mean, monopoly obviously
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  is one where you can trade properties with people."
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  So that's another one where weighing value is a key, a key part of the game.
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  And then we have two other kinds of negotiation.
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  One of the ones I will suggest or offer is, or the next one I'll offer, our game's where
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  betrayal is not part of the game, but negotiation and ally building are.
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  In particular, I'm thinking of the game Rex or as it was originally published in, is now
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  available Dune.
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  So the original Dune game has a goal of getting a certain amount of, I don't, each faction
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  has a slightly different way that they win the game, but the game does allow for people
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  to ally.
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  And if you ally, you have to have a sort of different thing to do to win the game and it's
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  harder.
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  You also get benefits from each other based on trading these ally or cooperation cards.
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  Now, one of the things I like about that game is that there is a specific time in the
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  game when you can make these deals.
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  The game doesn't allow, it doesn't say like you can just declare yourself an ally of somebody
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  that says, to be an ally, you have to in this round at this time do this thing.
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  And then you are allies, you trade ally tokens.
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  And then you are allies until at the very earliest, the next time we have one of those phases,
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  in which case you could choose to stop being allies.
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  The reason I like that is that betrayal is not really part of a thing, although you could
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  in that second phase stop being allies, ally with somebody else and then win the game or
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  something that does allow for it.
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  But there is a specific time when that could happen and the other players have equal opportunity
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  to do that.
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  So again, there is a level of deception at play, but the deception comes on even terms in
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  the game.
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  As I think about it, I am not sure that I know of another game other than Rex/Dune that
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  has the arranged ally rules like that, like the ones in Rex/Dune.
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  There probably are some, but I'm not sure that I know what they are.
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  And then we get to the third kind of negotiation and betrayal game.
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  And this is area control games that allow, that don't disallow negotiation.
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  And I guess like you couldn't really disallow negotiation.
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  I think about this, is I think about like an area control games.
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  I don't know that you can really disallow players from teaming up, from working together,
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  from talking to one another.
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  And you know, different players will approach this process in different ways, that an area
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  control game because so much of it is about figuring out where you can gain the most control,
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  figuring out how to outwit the other players militarily rather than economically, although
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  economically sometimes it's part of it, means that sometimes it will be in your benefit
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  to work with another player against another stronger player.
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  And when that happens, you know, allyships will form.
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  But unlike side-early or confluence or even Rex/Dune, if the game doesn't legislate that,
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  then part of gameplay becomes observing and exploring what other game players are doing
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  and figuring out the best way to navigate that space, aware that the game doesn't require
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  you to maintain any kind of truthfulness in what you're saying.
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  And in fact, the game kind of encourages you not to.
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  The biggest classic of this genre of course is Diplomacy.
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  Diplomacy is a very long, I haven't played it actually.
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  Diplomacy is a very long political and military game set in the 1900s in Europe.
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  And the idea is that you are competing states trying to establish dominance in Europe.
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  That is the whole goal of the game.
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  The game does not allow for a win condition in which people work together.
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  It does not allow for peace among... I'm assuming this all.
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  I actually haven't played diplomacy.
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  Maybe there is a peace among everyone or an alliance win option, but I kind of doubt it.
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  You know, a similar but less hobby game approach would be something like risk.
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  The game risk has a similar, you are competing countries from around the world and the goal is to
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  dominate the whole world. You can't decide, no I'm not going to try to dominate the world.
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  I mean you can, but you won't. The game won't end.
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  Either you'll get a stale mate or you will lose.
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  You can't win without attacking in Risk.
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  I'm not sure how diplomacy works, but I assume it's the same.
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  The game of Thrones is a sort of fantasy version of this same model where you have competing
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  states, royal powers, and a set number of objectives slash control points.
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  And you win if you control a certain number of them when the game is the game in Game of Thrones,
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  there's a time limit too. So if you get to I think seven rounds and somebody doesn't control
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  however many castles you need to win, it depends on player count.
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  Then the person who controls the most castles win and then there's a couple of tiebreakers.
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  So you can determine who the winner is on time.
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  But other area control games will have different ways of measuring victory,
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  but often come down to that same thing. And this is,
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  I actually want to inspire this conversation is a handful of stars, which I played recently,
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  as I said. I dusted it off. I played it before. In a handful of stars,
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  you are a one of a number of alien races that is trying to spread out through the galaxy
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  and other alien races are also moving through the galaxy. There are
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  points available for colonies, outposts, and your homeworld. And then there are some limited
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  number of technologies that have points in them as well. So there is a way to sort of strive for
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  a culture victory, but the game doesn't really make all that many points available for it. So it'd
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  be really hard to achieve a cultural victory, I think, because there just aren't that many points
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  for it. You would need to have some level of control of a big chunk of the board to win. Because
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  you have the points at the end of the game, you don't get the points in the middle of the game. So
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  having a colony in the middle of the game doesn't actually get you anything toward winning,
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  except it gets you more resources. And then at the end of the game, you can,
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  you get points for that colony. But if you lose the colony in the second last turn,
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  that colony didn't give you any points at all. So this is one of the challenges of the game is,
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  the end state is the only thing that matters. And because the end state is the only thing that matters,
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  it reminds me a lot of Game of Thrones. Except that in Game of Thrones, the way the game is set up,
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  it's a reminiscent of diplomas, so the idea that you would be working with other people
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  and talking to them is forefront. In a handful of stars, it's certainly possible. The game doesn't
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  say anything about making alliances or making deals with people, but the game also doesn't
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  facilitate that in any way. Anything that people say to one another is just part of gameplay.
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  And this is the place actually where I find this kind of game where there is a value to diplomatic
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  interaction, even when the game doesn't legislate that action, to be the most fraught in terms of
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  my experience. Because often, the kind of interaction that the game promotes through its mechanisms
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  isn't a very nice interpersonal action. Diplomacy, Game of Thrones, these are both games that are
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  sort of legendary for the moment that someone betrays someone else. Because if you believe that
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  you're in alliance with someone and then they betray you, that is a real twist. And if you aren't
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  expecting to be betrayed, it's an even bigger twist. And it can be a pretty bad, it can be a pretty
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  big feel bad moment. Now, some people enjoy that kind of moment in a game. They remember it
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  positively. Other people, it is a legitimate feel bad moment. That's there's a reason that they
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  when they're talking about, there's a reason when they talk about diplomacy that they talk about
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  it ruining friendships. Because it is a game where you make deals with people, you talk secretly with
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  people, in diplomacy you take people in your confidence, you make notes. There's a whole element to
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  working together. And then at some point somebody springs a betrayal on somebody else. And that's part
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  of how the game works. Game of Thrones is the same way. People work together to establish what they're
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  doing. And often, there's a betrayal element as well. So what has regularly happened to me,
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  and this happened in both Game of Thrones and the recent Game of the Handful of Stars is I presume
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  during the game that any deals made are provisional and likely to be betrayed at some point.
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  You know, if somebody says, "Hey, let's work together on this." I think, great, we will stand together
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  as long as it suits us both. And I'll expect at some point that you'll turn on me. So I never
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  like fully opened myself up for attack in that kind of game because the smart move in that situation,
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  at some point you have to turn on your collaborator, particularly if they are the weakest
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  opponent that you have facing you because the game does not allow you to win with another person.
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  But this is where the really interesting slippage between the magic circle of the game and the
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  real world of like feelings is interesting and sort of can be upsetting is that people experience
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  real feelings of betrayal in playing the fictitious game. And depending on how dramatically they
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  feel, those feelings resonate beyond the game itself or really push toward dramatic experience.
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  Now, again, if everybody is on the same page, that's great. I never go into a game of Game of Thrones
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  expecting not to be betrayed. And so when a betrayal happens, if I didn't see it coming, I might feel
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  mad for a little and then I would feel like really impressed by the maneuvering my opponent did.
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  And I assume that everyone else is playing the game in the same way until they're not.
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  And I just, I find that really interesting and also not my favorite experience.
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  Because I really like to play to win and in a game where you're competing to win, if I feel
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  upset outside of the game because of the actions in the game, even if they're my own doing.
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  I've used this example a number of times in the game, "Dead of Winter." There was one time I won as
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  the portrayer because I waited for the optimal moment where it looked like we were all going to succeed
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  and then I stuck the knife in every way, it was back and won the game. And I hated every minute of it.
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  Like I didn't find it fun. And frankly, from the looks of everybody else around the table,
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  they didn't find it fun either. And this is like, this is a really interesting part about
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  competitive games generally, but particularly competitive games that involve an active portrayal
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  is that losing isn't fun inherently, but you can play a game and have fun even if you lost.
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  So I'm always thinking about what is it that makes it so you don't have fun when you lose
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  in the gameplay experience. And if you're the person who causes someone else to not have fun
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  because they lost, how does that fit into the gameplay experience? Well, that was a long walk
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  for a short conversation about negotiation games. Thanks for joining me on my walk today. If you have
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  comments on this, head over to Board Game Geek, you'll 3269, and share your thoughts about negotiation games.
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  If you have anything else to share, head over there as well, or send me an email,
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  BrendanRateloxGames.com, or send me a direct message on Board Game Geek. "Wombat 929" is my
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  username there. Well, that's about it for me. Thanks for joining me on my walk today. I hope your
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  next walk is as pleasant as mine was. Bye-bye.
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  [out take beep] Ugh ... Ugh ... cicadas all around me [out take beep]