Latest / The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast / Episode 215. Understanding Refrigeration System Controls with Larry Herman of Redline Control Design

Transcript

Episode 215. Understanding Refrigeration System Controls with Larry Herman of Redline Control Design · The Refrigeration Mentor Podcast

• 0:00
  Trevor: This conversation is going to be with a friend of mine, Larry Herman, who is the president of Redline Control Design. And we've met at a few different industry events. I've heard him on a few different podcasts and he is a control.
• 0:01
  experts. He's been doing this for decades, and we're going to dive into a little bit about his journey, as well as dive into some control tips for you as a technician in the field, and as well as designers, because this is very, very important. This is key to our refrigeration industry. We know controls have been growing over the last decade, and it only has ramped up over the last five years immensely, and it's only going to get even more and more into controls as we get predictive maintenance, AI coming in.
• 0:02
  Larry, welcome to the Refrigeration Minter podcast. How you doing? Very good, Trevor, thank you for having me. Oh, thank you for joining. So we, like I said, we met at a few different industry events. Always see you just growing your knowledge, sharing your knowledge with others. But first of all, let's dive into a little bit about your control, history, and your journey.
• 0:03
  I know you started back in decades ago learning about controls, , owning your own businesses and stuff with controls, and continuing to evolve and share knowledge with. with people. So yeah, decades, I think is an understatement,
• 0:04
  but,
• 0:05
  Larry: This all started very quickly when I was in high school and just started to take a boat tech class in refrigeration and air conditioning.
• 0:06
  Wow.
• 0:07
  Larry: And found out that although I understood it all and enjoy doing all the different facets of work I got it. You know, a job in the industry so I could work all summer and go to college in the winter. The best part of it for me was controls. I always liked turning things on and off. And nobody else knew how to do it.
• 0:08
  So whenever I was on the job, it was like, here kid, go wire this up. You know, figure out how to make it work. And of course, I'm there with wire and relays and timers trying to make this stuff work. And then when the computer revolution started around 1980 I got a job with a company called Margo Controls.
• 0:09
  And I was valued because of my refrigeration knowledge and having the first Apple IIe sitting on my desk was able to communicate with these systems that they called energy management systems. And that gave me a leg up on people because I could look at the screen and understand the numbers. There were guys who could manipulate the computer, but they didn't understand what they were looking at.
• 0:10
  So I had it from both ends and my knowledge in the company just grew from there. We actually as a consultant for various supermarkets after I learned how these controls worked I went into my own business as a consultant and the customers I had kind of forced me to become a contractor because they said, Hey, we don't know anybody else who can install this stuff.
• 0:11
  So you have to do it. And so I grew into a contractor. Doing controls and then branched out into all different low voltage because it was like, well, while you're pulling the control wires, can you pull our camera cables? Can you pull our fire alarm? Can you do all this? So we became full service and I got involved in a whole thing.
• 0:12
  That business was the L. P. Herman Company and we closed that company around, it was in business for almost 35 years.
• 0:13
  Blows
• 0:14
  Larry: that in 2016 and decided to go back into consulting. Just kind of done with being a contractor anymore. So now it's me out there, as you said providing help and knowledge and you know, of course, charging a little bit so I can pay the mortgage.
• 0:15
  But you know, helping the new guys and learning myself because it's a dynamic industry. Learning about CO2 systems and the control challenges that that presents. It's just been a lot of fun and I'm still doing it. I'm still enjoying it. No plans on retiring
• 0:16
  Trevor: It's just it's fun Yeah, no.
• 0:17
  And what's great about refrigeration industry, you can continue with new careers, even though you've been doing controls for that long, but it's still a new career, even with CO2, because it's just a totally different animal now compared to say 20 years ago, 10 years ago, the way the controls were doing.
• 0:18
  And one good thing you have been in refrigeration all the time. So you've seen the evolution of it. Going from way back to the first relay starting and first temperature probes to now where full automated systems with co2 Because there's pressure and temperature transducers all over the place before we dive into a lot of that What are you seeing out there?
• 0:19
  Because you're doing you're working with a lot of contractors and users all around North America now, what are you starting to see or what do you see on the control size in the aspect of the knowledge? That technicians need to know and where they're really at at this point, because you're trying to help fill that gap.
• 0:20
  A lot of times I know that. So where do you see our industry right now in North America?
• 0:21
  Larry: Well, I see the kind of a bit of a dichotomy. If you will, because for four years in the very beginning, the controls are very complicated because they weren't very powerful. So you had to work with them as they presented themselves to you, kind of like PLCs, almost writing your own code to get it to work.
• 0:22
  So it was very complicated. Then the manufacturers as computers got more sophisticated and they were able to package the strategies, package the. applications or tasks or whatever you want to call them, whatever. the different manufacturers call them, so that you had more canned programming, which made it a whole lot easier.
• 0:23
  And the industry went that way for quite a while. And then with the advent of variable speed and all kinds of other things CO2, they're required more sophisticated programs again. So it got tougher again. So the basics are still there, but You know, it's with the new controllers the Site Supervisor E3 and the Danfoss 880.
• 0:24
  And I know something about but not as much about microthermo. There's a lot you can do now. So, to set up a basic system is not that complicated. But to get it to do what you really need it to do, when you start dealing with different refrigeration strategies, different building strategies, You know operating pressurized buildings, compensating for CO2 levels and humidity levels, and all that it takes more than just a CAN programming.
• 0:25
  You've, you've got to understand calculations and flexible combiners and all kinds of other things in order to make the system do what you want it to do. To get back to your question, for the new guys, It's really understanding the basics of the controls, and the basics of controls are about as simple as the basics of refrigeration.
• 0:26
  I mean refrigeration, it's, you know, you're evaporating, you're transferring, you're condensing, you know and you've got cooling and heating. It's just a cycle. And the same with controls. You have an input, you have a computer that compares that input to a set point, and then it operates a relay.
• 0:27
  Yeah. And that's really all there is to it. And when you start thinking about it in those terms, and every electronic system is the same. I found out that fire alarm systems are the same. They work the same way. Security systems are the same. You have inputs, you have control set points, and then you have outputs.
• 0:28
  Fire alarm, the output is the horn strobes. So when you get in that mentality, it certainly makes it a lot easier. And actually I find troubleshooting EMS stuff, unless it's, you know, there are some really sophisticated problems when you start getting intermittent network errors and nonsense like that.
• 0:29
  But for the most part. Most of the problems are that the mechanical equipment isn't working, and if you cycle the relay to try and turn it on and off, and the relay works but the device doesn't turn on and off, then you know it's somewhere else down the line, electrical or mechanical or otherwise. If you cycle the relay and it works perfectly, then you know it's somewhere in a computer system.
• 0:30
  Chances are it's not the program. because they don't change unless somebody's been fat figuring the keyboard. Usually what happens it's a sensor that's gone out of calibration or a transducer.
• 0:31
  Trevor: So what do you think is cause this is a big struggle. Even when I started out in the industry, I struggled with electrical.
• 0:32
  I struggle with controls. What do you think the big thing is for technicians who really struggle with controls and even electrical? To be a matter of fact, because well, I train thousands of technicians and a lot of them say in the, you know, in the questionnaire that I send them I have difficulty with electrical, I have a difficulty with controls and this is kind of what I need help with.
• 0:33
  What do you, why do you think that it, that is? Why do you, do they feel that they're better on the mechanical side versus the electrical side? Because you just walked through the basics of it. What are some of the things that you're seeing out there in the struggle? And I think
• 0:34
  Larry: you know this very well, too.
• 0:35
  I think it comes down to the basics of troubleshooting. And we should almost offer a course, Troubleshooting 101, which is how to look at a problem that is occurring and use the knowledge you know to dive into it and try and work towards what you don't know. Electrical circuitry, the basics of it is about as simple as it could get.
• 0:36
  And I tell this guy to guys all the time. Most guys know how to wire a light bulb and that might be the basic of a lot of jokes But it's true. Most guys know how to wire a light bulb, you know You take your hot you bring it to your switch you go to your light bulb you come back on your neutral You know and goes back to the circuit breaker.
• 0:37
  That's it. That's a circuit. Well, that's also a circuit in controls except that your 120 volts is not going through a light switch. It's going through a relay And it's not turning on a light bulb, it's pulling in a coil and coming back again. And that's the whole circuit. And that's one of the beauties of electronic controls is that you don't have a lot of interlocks and you don't have a lot of safeties, except of course in the compressors, that are in the way of your controls.
• 0:38
  Your controls are pretty direct. You're pulling in a relay and something's happening. The interlocks and the safeties and all the strategies are within the computer itself. So in that aspect, troubleshooting, it becomes a lot easier because it's is if you pull in a relay, is it working or isn't it? So I think I think sometimes people try and look at a problem and have the answer jump in their head And it just doesn't work that way You got to start with what you know and work to what you don't know and troubleshooting circuit is not that hard If you put your meter across the hot and the neutral and you got 120 volts Then you go to The common input to the relay, and if you have 120 volts there, which you should, between the hot and the neutral, you're good.
• 0:39
  Now you go to the output side of the relay. You still have 120 volts. If you do, the relay's closed. If you don't, the relay's open, no matter what the computer says. Maybe the contacts are blown, maybe a fuse is blown on the board. But you just keep working your way through that, working from what, you know, to what you don't know,
• 0:40
  Trevor: and you'll find it.
• 0:41
  Yeah. And that, and that's the thing. I think we overcomplicated a lot of people like electrical can be hard, but if you're been doing refrigeration for a few years electrical should be pretty easy for you in the sense that there's wiring diagrams in the cases. There's wire dies for the coils.
• 0:42
  There's wiring diagrams at the racks a lot of times, except for the one that's old. Retro and have been renovated seven times and all the wires are black and they're pulled everywhere, but newer systems that the manufacturers do a pretty good job at labeling everything today and having the proper documentation.
• 0:43
  Is there a mistake sometimes from the menu for sure, but this is our job as technicians to go through it. And every time I teach electrical and controls, it's the sequence of the process. So sequence of operation, where do you start? Well, you got power coming into the building. Okay. So you got that 5 75, that four 80 whatever, two 30 volts coming into the building.
• 0:44
  And then you go from there. Well do we got P main power? Then we got power in that system. Does it go through the breaker? Does it go through the refuses? Does it get to that transformer and then follow it Just like a refrigeration circuit? You gotta follow the power. The power. And I always say, 'cause I, I didn't know how to do electrical troubleshoot.
• 0:45
  I was going to ground all the time, but that's just. The safety is their potential there. You know what I mean? Especially if you're doing 208 volts, that's going to mess you right up like, Oh, I got 112. What's going on here? And I think it's I think there's not enough people sharing the electrical knowledge because maybe they don't really know and they're not confident on sharing it like the The guys that have the eight to 10 or 15 years in there, and I really believe if more people spend time looking at wiring diagrams and reading wiring diagrams and actually going to systems that work, put their, their meters on the, the working system, their knowledge will fast track so much quicker.
• 0:46
  What are your thoughts on that, on troubleshooting electrical?
• 0:47
  Larry: Yeah. Well, the industry has certainly gotten a lot better because everything is online now. So, it's so much easier to find the wiring diagrams. and the like. I think it's important that guys familiarize themselves with and understand a ladder wiring diagram and understand how that works.
• 0:48
  Because quite honestly, that's exactly the way you troubleshoot a system. If you have a ladder, you're going from your hot or plus 24 volts or whatever voltage you're dealing with. You're going through the circuitry and you're winding up at the common or the neutral or whatever it is. So once again, if you go between hot and common and you have power, then you move to your next junction point in the wiring as shown by the ladder diagram.
• 0:49
  Then you move to the next point, maybe it's the relay, then you move to another, and you just keep moving across until you find what doesn't work. The laddering diagram, wiring diagram, makes it really simple. And like I said, it's almost like wiring a lightbulb. You go from the hot, straight across to the light switch, which is your contact.
• 0:50
  To the light bulb to the common and anybody can troubleshoot that system. Sometimes like I said, people like to look at a system and a problem and hope that the answer pops into their head and it doesn't work that way. One of the things I used to do years and years ago when I was doing residential air conditioning, which is where I, you know, part of where I started was somebody would say, you know, I have a problem with my air conditioner.
• 0:51
  I said, what the, they said, it's hot. It's not working well. Yeah, of course. Any noises, anything? No, it just doesn't work. Alright, first thing I would do is go to the thermostat. I would go anywhere else but the thermostat. I walk in, I take the little switch on that thermostat and throw the fan from auto to on.
• 0:52
  And if that fan came on, that told me a lot. Just that. First of all, I know that the heater's got power. I know that the fan runs, so I'm looking for another problem. So now the next place I'm going to do is I'm going to go outside to the unit, and I'm going to see if I have power out there, and see if I have a 24 volt signal out to the contactor.
• 0:53
  But I just divided the problem in half. If I throw it and the fan doesn't turn on, the first place I'm going is to the heater downstairs to see if that has power, and see what's happening there. To me, that's the way to troubleshoot. a problem, you divide in half and you just keep dividing until you get to the answer.
• 0:54
  So you try and eliminate, which is one of the reasons I came right back to, you're dealing with an energy management system, you energize the output relay. The unit turns on, then you know most likely the problem is somewhere in the You know, with on the computer side, a sensor or something like that. If the unit doesn't turn on, you know, it's on the electromechanical side.
• 0:55
  And then you have to figure out what's going on there.
• 0:56
  Trevor: I teach a lot of technicians to start drawing these diagrams. Cause you don't always get a ladder diagram from a manufacturer. And it, cause sometimes it looks like a spaghetti mess. But what, what I try to get to do is exactly what you say is draw it out.
• 0:57
  So you can look at it better, you know, just that one little circuit and start in one place because you could have like eight pages for that one electrical circuit, you know what, especially in refrigeration, there's a lot. That's why guys get overwhelmed and they just. Put their hands on because I did it.
• 0:58
  I just stopped. I was like, this is too overwhelming. I can't do anything about it. But if you take it step by step, okay, where's that main coming in the main power? You look at the voltage and then what page does it go to next? Then you go to that page and then you call it print them off. I tell them like print a bunch of them off so you can draw on them.
• 0:59
  Okay, the power goes here. Take your meter out and go across it. Just like you're saying go in there and see if it actually has that 208 voltage or 120 volts or 24 volts. It doesn't matter. But I really believe it's us putting the work and I feel a lot of technicians feel like all they're doing is putting fires out and they're not spending any time to grow not spending enough time to grow their knowledge, either during the work hours or outside the work hours.
• 1:00
  I highly. I teach a lot of people outside the work hours to start reading these wiring diagrams and learning electrical, because that's the biggest fear for a lot of technicians. Like what happens if there's an electrical issue? I don't know where, where to start, you know, but like you said, there's a process.
• 1:01
  You start, you start at where the power comes in, you go to the switch, you go to the light bulb, and then you go back to the neutral or the common, right? There is always a process.
• 1:02
  Larry: Well, Trevor, I, I think that's why you have found your calling because I think that's a fabulous idea is to draw out a diagram.
• 1:03
  Cause anytime you do it yourself, it just builds your knowledge rather than staring at something. It's like when you're in class, if you just listen, you'll learn some. If you take notes and write it down, you'll learn a lot more.
• 1:04
  Trevor: Yeah. So, so you've been doing this for a long time. You worked on a lot of EMS system.
• 1:05
  What are some of the projects you're working on now? Because CO2, once again, we had conversation about CO2 that is starting to grow. EMS is getting big now. So. Predictive maintenance, preventative maintenance, all this energy management where we're, they're, they're load shedding. They're seeing how much energy that refrigeration system is there.
• 1:06
  What are some of the projects you're working on right now?
• 1:07
  Larry: I'm working with a mechanical contractor in New York called Tomco and we are doing a complete CO2 changeover.
• 1:08
  So the entire store is being swapped to CO2 while it's running. Awesome. That's super cool. So that involved that involved a lot. It involves a lot, I should say, because the the Company that's contracting the workout has the prints. And we looked at the prints and that's part of what I do is to understand the prints.
• 1:09
  Partially that's where company name came from to redline prints, to work on controls and to design systems. So so
• 1:10
  Trevor: let's talk about that. So how is that? Sorry, let's talk about that on how the retrofits go, because this is a, this is a big market. You know, take it in a store that's been 20 years old.
• 1:11
  Now we got to update it. This is a big thing for controls because sometimes that control was still the original control from 20 years ago. And now you got to go up to a new E3, Dan Foss, MicroThorough, RDM, Corel, whatever it is. Let's talk about a little bit of that process for others out there who may like technicians who have to do this, may not have done it before.
• 1:12
  What is your process when you get into a project like that?
• 1:13
  Larry: Well that's exactly what we're doing right now is First thing is that everything in the store is going to change. There's nothing that's going to remain in that store, except for it happened to be an old Danfoss 255 system, and they're upgrading to an 880A, which means that fortunately all the HVAC is compatible, and it's a matter of just flipping the controller and redoing the updating the programming, and so at least the building side is taken care of.
• 1:14
  On the refrigeration side like I said, everything is going. So there's all new copper by, you know, run to everything. Every single case is going to change to a CO2 compatible case. Every evaporator coil in the walk ins is going to change. And it's a matter of having the architect and the contractors being able to stage it all.
• 1:15
  The biggest thing that we run into is that the store is going to have to, the cases are going to have to get shuffled, some of them are coming out with temporary self contained cases going in, so that we can put enough systems in to be able to start the CO2 rack. And you know, basically getting you know 75 or 100 linear feet of cases on the medium temp side.
• 1:16
  And similar on the low temp side, so we can fire the system up, and then start swinging over the rest of the store as we go. Now for those who don't know, CO2 has to be electronic control. So every CO2 case has a case controller. So, that's the next challenge, is to make sure that the network sequencing is correct.
• 1:17
  Because we got a print that the architect drew. That was real nice. The network went from case to case to case. Very pretty, very minimal amount of wiring, but it won't work because we can't follow that pattern because we have cases in the middle of the loop that are supposed to start first. So we're able to discuss that with them get a case installation sequence together and redraw the network so that we can wire the network according to a print that's going to happen.
• 1:18
  Which means that there's probably going to be a little bit more wire and a little bit more jumping back and forth But not a ton if we plan it, right So there's a lot of planning up front that needs to be done It's not just something where you jump in and do it
• 1:19
  Trevor: Yeah You definitely don't want to just try to wing a project like that because that that's where you Cost everybody more money if you want to be profitable on a on a especially a retrofit you guys got to walk through it weeks before and this is like anything doing a gas retrofit doing a A controller upgrade there, you need to have that, that planning and process in place to have a successful outcome because everybody wants to be profitable on this.
• 1:20
  You know, the end users, the contractor, the controls, the technicians, and if you plan it out before it makes your life so much easier. So you get the prints, you do some of the wiring, you do the planning, you get into the networking. What's some of the next steps on a project like that?
• 1:21
  Larry: Basically, it's getting the everything tested and ready to start. With us, a lot of remodels and stores, because they're not changing gas and everything is compatible. A lot of times, you know, it's a overnight swap. They're pulling three, six, sometimes nine cases out and putting new cases in.
• 1:22
  And they start them up and they load them up the next morning and with this kind of changeover that's not going to happen because It will never it will never happen through the entire process because there's too much work that needs to be done in each case to get it to go. So that gives us a little bit of breathing room.
• 1:23
  We can, like I said probably start off the first 10 medium and 10 low temp cases. We're going to have some time to set those cases, have them all piped, have the electronics wired. Has the power turned on and check to make sure everything's working right and then start the rack up put the gas in give them a few days to pull down the temperature and run properly and the rack settle properly and then we can start more of a changeover sequence well where you'll take a lineup of faces out you'll put a lineup of faces in it'll take a few days and start them up and they just keep working.
• 1:24
  So it's definitely a slower process because of the complexity, but that's basically the way it goes and you work your way through it.
• 1:25
  Trevor: No, no, exactly. Right. And the big thing is, is that now you have, if it's a booster system, you got to watch out to the amount of load that you're trying to put on at a time, because if you don't have enough load, that system is not going to work.
• 1:26
  I've seen it time and time again. And I'm sure you've seen it. Like how come this is not starting up? I don't get no load, the low depth just shuts off. And then there's a bunch of issues in there. So there is a process set, especially if you're working with the manufacturer, the end user, the contractors.
• 1:27
  control people, you guys all have to work together as a team. I know it's frustrating sometimes, but with these newer systems, it's not just a quick swap overnight or even over a few nights. There's, there's a lot of planning involved. I like, I like that you said that. So you're doing, doing a lot of that, that, that is super cool.
• 1:28
  What, what are you enjoying about the new control strategies? What are you enjoying about CO2 and CO2 controls versus what we were seeing five, 10 years ago with controls?
• 1:29
  Larry: One of the things I like about CO2 is that it's more critical and because of that it's more specific. Things are locked down.
• 1:30
  Unlike other refrigerators, you just don't have guys coming in and jacking the suction pressures down or raising the head pressures or doing stuff like that. The numbers are the numbers with CO2. And to tell you the truth, I really like that. I like the fact that, Hey, if you change it, it's not going to work.
• 1:31
  So don't change it. Go figure out what's wrong. You know what I'm saying? You got a, you got a 200 pound low temp suction. You got a 400 pound medium temp suction. That's it. You know, you're running your flash tank at 500 or 550 or whatever you are. That's it. There, there it is. And to tell you the truth, it takes a lot of uncertainty out of it.
• 1:32
  And it takes a lot of, you know, you'll walk in and you'll find a regular conventional refrigerator rack. You know, and it's not working right. And you'll find your low temp suction is set down at minus 30 degrees. You know, it's like,
• 1:33
  Trevor: and yeah, on, on a rag, it says 18 or something, you know what I mean, 18 or something.
• 1:34
  And it was like, I've seen that time again.
• 1:35
  Larry: And now it's a real headache because you've got to warm it back up again and stay on top of it to figure out everything else that is wrong that somebody put the bandaid on. And with CO2, it doesn't work that way. You set it up and that's the way it is. And when something fails, you fix it.
• 1:36
  So from that aspect, it's more complicated, but it's more clean cut. Does that make sense?
• 1:37
  Trevor: Yeah, no. And I, I agree with that. One thing is though, don't, don't get. Nah. Larry wrong or myself wrong, there are times when you're on call in the middle of the night that you have to do a bandaid to get through to the night if you got 15 calls holding, but you got to get someone back there to fix the problem, the actual problem because you got other maybe critical stuff that you need to help the other end users out with, but the biggest thing is with it.
• 1:38
  The synthetic stuff. Oh, we'll get back to that. We it's only five pounds lower on the suction now that had been before, but then that leads into another problem, do another problem, another problem where with CO2, you can't like, like, he can't, you can't just drop it because you could run into oil issues.
• 1:39
  You could run into. Low pressure trip off issues. There's lots of other things that are involved. And, and I think that, that is one great thing about CO2 there that you've got to make sure that you're fixing the problem. And I think being safer around. I think that's what I like about CO2. More guys are thinking before they act on systems where we were getting really complacent.
• 1:40
  Even me, I got complacent at all. Okay, well, I'll just turn this off for the night. You know what I mean? You can't just do that in newer systems. So I like that. What are, what are some of the other things? So people can't really just make up numbers and throw things in. What are a few of the other things you're liking about these new systems?
• 1:41
  Larry: Just for me, it's, it's, it's the new knowledge, the new challenge, the new everything. I think it's just, just from a, an aesthetic point of view. I like the fact that everything's down to smaller pipes now, back down to that. Everything's just cleaner.
• 1:42
  Trevor: What are your thoughts on what are your thoughts on trend graphs now troubleshooting using trend graphs?
• 1:43
  Cause that wasn't such a big thing before. Cause there wasn't, it was, but there wasn't as many pressure and temperature probes. What are your thoughts on using trend graphs for troubleshooting newer systems,
• 1:44
  They
• 1:45
  Larry: are valuable. They can, they can spot things so quickly you know, it's, it's and we were always about that with the even with the earlier equipment, because it's like the problem was always, well, it happened last night, you know, but we don't know what it was.
• 1:46
  Well, you know, if you have a system in there and you have enough sensors. There was somebody watching. The system was watching.
• 1:47
  Trevor: And
• 1:48
  Larry: you could figure it out from the graphs. And if you looked at it, you can see trends, like you said. You can see spikes. You can see sensors failing. Slowly. Because, you know, all of a sudden the sensor reading is the same, but the run cycles are higher.
• 1:49
  You know, why is that? You know, or the product is You know, all of a sudden they have an issue with it, but the temperature looks good. Well, you know, maybe it doesn't maybe the sensor is reading off by 10 degrees and your product's actually 10 degrees warmer than it should be things like that. So they're just an invaluable part of the process and understanding that is a help.
• 1:50
  And of course from the computer side of it the fact that the manufacturers allow you to compile different graphs on top of each other. So you can see suction pressure, you can see case temperature, you can see run status. You can see a lot of different things on the same graph. It can help a lot.
• 1:51
  Trevor: Yeah. And I totally agree with that. That's some of the other things I talk about in my programs too, is like I keep telling technicians, get your own login and password. You know, so it's not just everyone using the same password. So you know what you're doing and then you can account for, if you make a change and it's a wrong change, then you can say, okay, I didn't know.
• 1:52
  I thought this was going to help the system and at least it's all can be logged in, in the new systems, like technicians may not know, but any change that is done is in the backend that can't even be deleted on a new one. So every change that is being done. Can be if you go into deep backend, you can find all the changes that ever been done on a controller.
• 1:53
  Can't just go in and delete a change that you made. You just can only change it back. And so these are the things that I kind of, no, I don't know, preach on it, but it's like, be responsible, accountable for your action and refrigeration. It's only going to make you better because you can, I changed, I changed it to try to get through the night and it didn't work.
• 1:54
  So now I'm back here to fix it. And most service managers, most control guys are like, okay, well, thank you. For being honest, we're glad that we can see it here. And now we can make the proper adjustment. This is what we really should have been looking at. This is kind of what you, you may have missed, you know what I mean?
• 1:55
  Or this is the wrong graphs you are looking at. And I think that goes a long way with educating new technicians working on controls because there's so many of them out there right now. And it's overwhelming sometimes, I believe. Yeah,
• 1:56
  Larry: I think too. If they have the opportunity ask their company to borrow a controller and have their have the their You know, lead technician put a program in it so they could take it home and just look.
• 1:57
  I mean, I've got, I've got Dan Foss sitting here and Emerson sitting here. I've got all kinds of stuff and you you, you need that. You need to have a controller in front of your face sometimes without the pressure of, if I don't fix this, it's not going to work. Or I can't stand here in this compressor room all day because I got someplace else to be.
• 1:58
  So sometimes having one in your lap at home while you're watching TV And just playing with it, pushing the buttons and see where it takes you can be not only an invaluable experience, but a very comforting experience where you start to, to learn where to go to find the information
• 1:59
  Trevor: you want to find. I think that's huge.
• 2:00
  And any service manager, operation manager, or business owner out there that works in supermarket. This should be something you should be thinking about. Purchasing one that you can share around. People sign it out at the company and they can bring it home and use it. And for the technicians, this is how you learn and grow.
• 2:01
  Yes. Is it on your own time? Yes. You're not getting paid. Yes. But you know what? Your confidence is up there. Will, could you get a pay raise? Yes. Depending on your company, if you can go solve more complex problems, you're going to get paid more money. If you can reduce your troubleshooting time to each other, you're going to make more money.
• 2:02
  So this is just one thing. That will build your skills to get you that next level in your career. And I think that's huge. All the best control guys that I know, they've have it either a controller at their house that they use with it, or they, they have one from the company, just like you said, or at the company and go and play around with it all the time.
• 2:03
  And mostly on their own time. So when they're in the field, they can try different things and they can actually manipulate and see actually what happens in the system. Be like, wow. Okay. This makes a lot more sense. One night. I programmed this into the controller versus this when I did it at home. I love that.
• 2:04
  Well, again,
• 2:05
  Larry: it's something that it's just not going to pop into your head. You know, you're going to look at a new controller if you're a new guy, and it's going to be confusing as anything. I remember when I saw my first E2, I was lost. I'm like, I couldn't find anything to save my life, and it took a while, but now NE2 is so familiar.
• 2:06
  It's like, you know, I know exactly where everything is in my sleep. Somebody can call me on the phone and I can tell them what buttons to push to get there. Five, seven, three. Yeah, exactly. Old question mark. All the question, you know, the E three was the same way when it first came out. I couldn't even find where the IO map was.
• 2:07
  I couldn't see which board was online, you know, and it just took a little while. I think the first thing you gotta do is you gotta look at it. You gotta panic and then say, okay, I got that out the way. I can figure this out. What's the obligation as you work with, if you work with it, it comes to you? You start to learn it.
• 2:08
  And, and, you know, you, like I said, you get your fears out of the way, you start to learn it and now, you know, the it hasn't been out all that long, but you know, like, like the Dan Foss systems that I work with too, you know, the, the E3 feels like a comfortable friend now.
• 2:09
  Trevor: But once again, it's all about playing with it.
• 2:10
  I talked with people who work on RDM. They love that versus anything else. Corel or, you know, micro thermal, like they won't, it's just, you're used to it, but they're all, they all work the same. Just like they get inputs and outputs. They got a, a brain, the PLC. They all doing the same thing, just a little bit different language, a little bit different navigation.
• 2:11
  And it's what you're comfortable with because any controller out there that we talked about, somebody loves that controller versus the other ones. Yeah, exactly.
• 2:12
  Larry: Speaking of troubleshooting, you interested in a really weird thing that happened? Let's, let's hear it. Okay. One of my customers called and said we have a problem.
• 2:13
  They have ECM motors. It's a production bakery and so they have blast chillers and they have variable speed evaporator fans, variable speed condenser fans, fairly sophisticated and we upgraded them to the E3 which they, they love because it was E2 and they called and said we have a problem.
• 2:14
  We have this one freezer that's icing up because the evaporator fan motor won't shut off and defrost. There's something wrong with the board, something wrong with the program. I say, well, I don't think there's anything wrong with the program because it was working right and if nobody touched it, it should be okay.
• 2:15
  So we checked it all out. We went through it. And I think this is where understanding how it's supposed to work and having confidence in your knowledge makes a difference because we got to the point where we started to get down to board level. We knew the program was working right. We could, you know, could watch it happen.
• 2:16
  But the board, the analog board was putting out 10 volts all the time. And so, okay, fine. I'll bypass that point to five volts. Nope. Still putting out 10 volts. I'll bypass it to zero. Nope. Still putting out 10 volts. The fan kept running. So there's got to be something wrong somewhere and we're playing around and I'm like, you know what?
• 2:17
  Let's make sure that everything is isolated. Unplug the analog output jumper from the board and let's check the board again. So we check the board. And because I know, there's no way. I'm watching this happen, and there's no way that all four analog outputs could be bad. There's, so they unplug it, we check it, it's working perfectly.
• 2:18
  We get zero volts when we want zero, we get five volts when we want five, we get ten on all four outputs. So, I'm like, let's check the plug. We check across the plug, band number one, zero volts, which is what we should get, because it's not running. Fan number three, fan number four is your fan. Number two, 10 volts,
• 2:19
  bad ECM motor, backfeeding 10 volts onto the board, blowing out of all four ports.
• 2:20
  Trevor: Yeah. And this is process of elimination. This is what you have to do in your troubleshooting. And sometimes it doesn't happen on the first try, you know, so you got to go through it step by step. And the guys were
• 2:21
  Larry: apoplectic, like, we tried everything, we replaced the board, we did it all, and nothing worked.
• 2:22
  Well, it's because that wasn't where the problem was, you had to dissect it, but it was a fun problem to troubleshoot. And I did it with them, I was here in the office, they were out in the field. You know,
• 2:23
  Trevor: I think that's a lot of thing that happens, Larry, too. It's like, sometimes a lot of people jump the gun on changing the board.
• 2:24
  Not saying that you did it this one, cause I've done it too. Okay. Let's change the board to see if it's that, because you need to get them up and running. But I think there's a lot of parts being changed out there on controllers and control boards. And it's, that's not the real problem that's happening.
• 2:25
  And I think it's. Process of elimination in ways which you guys did, but it was good that you came to the understanding of what really happened because that's the thing you found the root cause of the issue where I think a lot of problems get fixed or repaired, but they don't understand what really caused that.
• 2:26
  Do you know what do you know what I mean? Like, and you found the root cause. Yes. You had to change a certain board and maybe you had to change something up that happens, but you found a root cause. It was that back feeding from the motor that was giving the 10 volts. That was jumper to everything.
• 2:27
  What causing all everything to get the 10 volts back to it. And I really think. Finding that root cause is probably the most important thing of anything because you'll learn from that next time, any time. I know for sure right now you or that contract or the end user any time dealing with ECM fan motors that is always consistently running.
• 2:28
  That's going to be one of the first things you guys check now. Am I getting back feet out of that motor? So it's a learning, a learning journey. So that's a great story. That was a great.
• 2:29
  Larry: And the thing was, it was the condenser fan motor that was defective and it was affecting the evaporator fan motor.
• 2:30
  That's why it was icing up into frost.
• 2:31
  Trevor: Yeah. And because once again, that motor still needs to consistently run the, the condenser one, and that's all on the same loop on the electrical loop. Right. So the, So, so that, that comes to, and once again, this takes time to find it and experience. So don't give yourself a hard time as a technician out there.
• 2:32
  If you don't know controls right away or electrical, this does take time. The more you invest in yourself, that those hours outside your work. Playing around with controllers, reading electrical diagrams, reading control manuals is only going to better you and fast track you in this industry. Larry, I love this conversation.
• 2:33
  How can people find out more about you, more about Redline Control Designs, if they want to find out more? Well they
• 2:34
  Larry: i'm on linkedin so you can find me there. If you google our redline control design our website comes up and there's a listing of what we do for people you know, one of the things that I do is provide that expertise that people need and it's something that as a consultant They can use me when they need me and when they don't need me.
• 2:35
  They're not carrying the cost of a high priced employee Awesome. Awesome. It works that way and whether it's for troubleshooting or programming I do work with some energy services company where i'm their lead programmer and I set up all the Applications and then they have other programmers who just make sure everything's working, right?
• 2:36
  Whether it's project management, which i'm doing on these co2 changeovers or even programming and starting up a system . It's you know I'm having a great time you know building my retirement fund, which I don't expect to use. And I just, I just have too much fun doing it.
• 2:37
  It's just love it.
• 2:38
  Trevor: I love it. Okay. Before I let you go, what would be one tip for a new technician getting into controls, getting into electric, into refrigeration industry to really help fast track them or help get them to their next level?
• 2:39
  Larry: On the control side, understand what you're controlling, because that's what got me into this business in the very first place, I understood the refrigeration. I understood what the numbers meant on the screen. And so therefore I was you know, I was able to, to learn the computer side, but I had the understanding and it made me a lot more valuable.
• 2:40
  If you don't understand what you're controlling. Understanding the controller is not going to be of as much value. So know how refrigeration system should work, you know, know how air conditioning should run. And then, you know, you know, you know how to control it. Then you'll learn how to program or, you know, Diagnosed through the control system when it's not doing what you want it to do.
• 2:41
  Trevor: I love that larry Thank you so much for taking the time and if you enjoy this And if you know people in controls share this with them, this is really important You know these little tips that larry shared with us even that story that that is Game changing for some people for sure because I know other people Ran into those issues.
• 2:42
  So please share this with others. I want to thank you larry I want to thank everyone for listening and we'll see you at the next refrigeration mentor podcast. See you later. Thank you Trevor always a pleasure.