Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Grimm Reality by Simon Bucher-Jones & Kelly Hale (featuring Darren Brewer)

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Grimm Reality by Simon Bucher-Jones & Kelly Hale (featuring Darren Brewer) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:02
On the other side of the nebula, on a little planet so like Earth
0:05
as to make Fitz feel briefly that it might be Earth, the
0:09
Doctor took a huge lungful of air as if he could breathe in
0:12
the world. Marvelous.
0:15
He pronounced overhead a Rook like bird cord.
0:19
In response, Fitz shaded his eyes, watching the black shapes
0:25
streak across the blue sky for a moment before gazing back at the
0:28
TARDIS nestled among a dry and dusty group of spindly trees.
0:33
Maybe while the chameleon circuit didn't actually work, it
0:37
still managed to look somehow subtly not out of place.
0:41
As if the police might be expected to have a public call
0:44
box in every minor woodland, but this fabulous ship, gateway to
0:49
time and space, cast a familiar spell over it's faded blue
0:52
paintwork still amazed him. It never looked like anything
0:57
else, but it didn't stand out either.
0:59
Just an ancient artifact in an old spinny, caught in the early
1:03
shadows of a chilly afternoon. Overhead, the sun was just a
1:08
shade past the zenith. The hill they had landed on was
1:12
tufted with clumps of coarse grass and sloped gently down
1:16
towards a broad expanse of shimmering green.
1:19
He could make out the grey brown haze of a forest several miles
1:23
away, and to his right, a smear, a glistening thread that might
1:27
be a river. He turned his gaze to the doctor
1:30
again, who was wearing an expression that had become
1:33
something of a defining fixture. Puzzlement.
1:39
That look of half recognition, half distress, as if he'd been
1:43
here before but could not, would never be sure.
1:47
He caught fits his eye and grinned.
1:50
Bracing, isn't it? Fitz nodded, clenching his teeth
1:54
and wrapping his arms around himself against a sudden gush of
1:57
icy air. You know?
2:00
Angie said A trifle smugly. Within the forms of a heavy
2:03
black coat. There are instruments in the
2:06
TARDIS that happily offer information on the climate
2:08
conditions outside. Fitz looked down at his grey
2:12
flannel shirt, black jeans and scruffy boots.
2:16
He'd been asleep when they landed and had dressed in a
2:18
hurry, prompted by the Doctor's enthusiastic announcement we'd
2:23
landed somewhere. It was the same announcement he
2:27
made nearly every time, same surprise and excitement.
2:31
It was starting to get on Fitz's nerves again.
2:36
Between Angie's tailored elegance and Fitz's thrown on
2:39
Drab stood the Doctor, whose only concession to the weather
2:42
was probably not a concession at all.
2:45
A long coat with a Cape attached and has split up the back.
2:48
The kind of coat you saw cowpokes wearing in films.
2:51
Where there was a lot of dust blowing around Texas.
2:54
The reddish brown colour was only a shade darker than he
2:57
imagined the dust of Texas would be.
3:00
It wasn't buttoned of course, and beneath it the Doctor's
3:03
white shirt ballooned out as the wind gusted through it.
3:08
By the Doctor's movements it was clear they were in for a brisk
3:10
March, and although this might have to serve to warm fits up,
3:14
the steely colour of the clouds rolling in made him think
3:17
otherwise. Hold up a second.
3:20
He called. I need an overcoat.
3:23
He turned back to the cops where the TARDIS was parked and found
3:27
himself blinking at a forest. A big forest, stretching away in
3:32
a curve over the hill and possibly forever beyond it.
3:36
Trees so close together he could barely glimpse the faint
3:39
illusion of the ship within. From behind him, Angie
3:43
whispered. Oh my God.
3:47
The doctor whistled softly, a long, slow note that was muted
3:51
and swallowed up by the sudden and ominous vegetation.
3:58
Interesting. Hamster Book club.
4:11
The Doctor Who Novel Review Podcast with Joe Ford and Darren
4:15
Brewer. Grim Reality by Simon Bucha
4:30
Jones and Kelly Hale. Welcome back to the Hamster Book
4:38
Club. My name is Joe Ford and it is my
4:42
privilege and pleasure today to introduce a new book club bar to
4:47
our growing army of book club. Mr. Darren Brewer.
4:52
How are you doing today, Darren? I'm good.
4:54
Thank you, Joe. How are you?
4:57
It's a Monday, I've got the day off, and I'm talking to you
4:59
about Doctor Who book. Absolutely marvelous.
5:03
The sun is shining, all is good. Not here it's not, and I'm in
5:06
Eastbourne on the sunshine. And whereabouts are you new?
5:09
Haven. Oh, you're just up the road.
5:11
Hang on, New Haven. Isn't that not just adjacent to
5:15
that twirly, whirly river of the war games?
5:19
Yeah, I mean, it's in between us.
5:22
Well, I'm not going to say anything to that.
5:27
Darren, can I ask you a question, please, about Doctor
5:30
Who books? Well, what is your Doctor Who
5:35
book journey? What was the 1st Doctor Who book
5:37
you read? And then sort of where did you
5:39
go from there? Well, my Doctor Who book journey
5:43
and my Who journey are pretty much one in the same because I
5:46
only came to the show when it came back with Chris Eccleston.
5:49
I was, I was aware of Doctor Who obviously, but my mum wasn't
5:53
interested. My dad watched it when he was
5:55
growing up but I had no entry into it.
5:57
And even when it came back I was aware of it but it had no in
6:01
interest. I didn't really.
6:03
And then I happened to catch End of the World, the second
6:06
episode. Oh, this is quite good.
6:08
But then I was lucky because the Sun was doing a free DVD from
6:13
each of the classic doctors and I managed to get some of those
6:16
and I saw Earth Shock and I went, well this is good, I want
6:20
to see more of this. And then it went from that and
6:22
then I started, I was in Snoopers Paradise and they'd got
6:25
the targets of Terror of the Zygons and the Horns and Nine
6:29
Men. So I picked those up and went,
6:32
oh, these are good, because again, there were stories I
6:34
hadn't seen. But then a friend of mine said
6:38
that he'd got the 8th Doctor books and that he could do me
6:42
sort of a pirate copy on my Kindle, and it was all of them.
6:45
So I started reading the 8 Doctors.
6:49
But of course I could follow it. But not a lot made sense to me
6:52
because I hadn't seen the majority.
6:54
But it's all got great, right? I enjoyed Vampire Science and
6:58
the Body Snatchers and then I hit the next three War of the
7:01
Daleks. Is it casal and alien bodies?
7:06
That's right. There's one very popular book
7:08
there and two very unpopular books there.
7:11
And I got through to, I seem to remember War of the Daleks and
7:16
Casal. So Alien Bodies was alright, but
7:19
I sort of, I just got through them, I didn't go out and I sort
7:22
of reached that point ago. Do I really want to read all the
7:26
others if they're all going to be this sort of Yeah.
7:31
So I just put it away. And then the next book I
7:33
remember reading and loving was Sharda Douglas Adams, which I
7:38
read in one sitting and I loved it.
7:40
And then I just dipped in occasionally here and then.
7:43
And then a friend of mine was getting rid of some 8th Doctor
7:46
novels, but they weren't linked ones and I thought they'd all
7:50
just be separate stories. So I picked, I bought them off
7:55
and then went, these are like in parts of story arcs and things
7:58
like that. So I tried reading them and I
8:01
couldn't get into them because I had no context.
8:03
I didn't know Fitz, Angie, Compassion, things like that.
8:07
So that kind of put me off reading them because I couldn't
8:11
get involved in them. I read some of the missing
8:13
adventures, so I read Empire of Glass, Sorcerer's Apprentice,
8:17
which were good. Then Twilights of the Gods and
8:21
Invasion of Cat. Is it Invasion of Cat people?
8:24
And they were very much yeah, no, But yeah.
8:30
So then again, it's just I've started.
8:32
And again, it's thanks to Hamster that I've been growing
8:35
my book collection properly instead of getting back into
8:37
them. Oh.
8:38
I'm so sorry about that. You know they're not cheap.
8:41
Some of these books you. Know luckily I've been quite
8:44
lucky and I've managed to find cheap ones here.
8:45
And then I got a brand new copy of pretty much of Lords of the
8:49
Storm, The missing adventure. Oh wow, what cheap?
8:52
When I was in Bristol, 299 in Oxfam.
8:55
Barking man about. Sometimes it's in cherish
8:57
condition. It looks like it's never been
8:59
wrecked. I don't know what they've got.
9:00
I mean, you mentioned Snoopers Paradise there, which is
9:03
obviously a shop in Brighton that's close to both of us.
9:06
And it's a goldmine of Doctor Who merchandise, isn't it?
9:09
Like there's there's entire cabinets and target books there
9:13
and annuals and it's like a treasure trove, isn't it?
9:16
I bought menagra from there after hearing you talk about it
9:19
and it's just, I've no, I've got it.
9:20
I've seen it in there and meant to go back and gone about it but
9:23
went back to. That's on my to read list.
9:25
I mean I think Snoopers Paradise know what they've got because
9:28
they made me pay £14.00 for The Ghost of N Space, which is a a
9:33
terrible book if I'm honest, but they knew, they knew it was
9:36
rare. I've got a copy of that and I'm
9:39
waiting to read it and I partly want to read it.
9:42
I'm looking forward to reading it to see if it's as bad as
9:45
everyone says. I mean, I'm covering that in a
9:48
couple of weeks, and I did actually sneakily rather enjoy
9:52
it. But, you know, you're on that
9:53
sort of so bad. It's good level, Yeah.
9:56
Sort of time lash sort of level, you know?
9:58
Wow. So hang on.
10:00
See, I thought you'd come in via the classic series.
10:02
I had no idea you'd come in via the.
10:04
News I I as I say, I had no no one around me that watched or no
10:10
reason to get into it and it just sort of passed me by and
10:12
then, as I say, explored the lot then have you?
10:14
Since got back and. It was literally, as I say, I
10:17
got, I sort of carried on with the new series when they
10:20
started, but from Earth Shot I saw that and then obviously
10:24
there was a catalogue in the sleeve and I've got Mark of the
10:27
Rani and other classics and then went from there and obviously
10:32
sort of dipped in and out of the books as well.
10:35
But now, again, thanks to Hamster, I've got a massive pile
10:38
of books and more on the way. Again, I can only apologise for
10:42
that, but. Because I listened to all the
10:44
top tens you did and heard everyone.
10:45
I've got to read that. So I've got Adventurous of
10:47
Henrietta St. which I managed to get for £6.
10:50
Do you have a strong magnifying glass to read that one?
10:54
The. Font is very small.
10:57
Mad Dogs. An Englishman eater of Wasps.
11:00
I'm going to try what? And get through the English way
11:03
of death. Oh.
11:04
Have you started then? No, it's on its way.
11:07
But I've tried reading it before and I just get halfway through
11:10
and I just go I can't finish this, which that's.
11:12
A popular. I struggle with that one as
11:15
well. Because it's Gareth Robertson
11:18
and I love 4th Doctrine Ramana and I thought I'm going to love
11:21
this book, but there's just something about it.
11:23
Each time I get sort of halfway through and go no.
11:25
So hopefully this time round. Sometimes you have to divorce
11:31
who the writer is. Oh absolutely.
11:33
Otherwise I would never pick up another Gareth Roberts books
11:36
again. And annoyingly, I really like
11:38
his work. Well, I, I tried reading it
11:40
before we found out what he was really like.
11:42
And even then I just, there was just something about it.
11:45
So hopefully third time's the chart.
11:48
Yeah, although did you say Sharda was one that you were?
11:50
Because obviously he did a novelisation.
11:52
Of that which I love. You remember that end of chapter
11:55
where the Doctor has been going on about Gallifrey and swearing
11:58
and then something dreadful happens and there's just a load
12:00
of symbols of the Doctor swearing?
12:03
I was reading out on a train. I burst out laughing.
12:05
Same here. People must thought I was very
12:07
eccentric, you know. Are you like a, are you a strong
12:11
reader then? Like, do you read a lot of
12:12
books? Yeah.
12:14
Outside. Of Doctor Who, then.
12:16
Yeah, so again, I work my way through the rivers of London by
12:20
Ben Aranovic, which I loved. And then obviously I thought I
12:24
read Remembrance. And then of course I thought,
12:26
oh, he's written 2 new adventures.
12:27
And then I've heard about transit and I've gone.
12:29
I don't know if I want to read that or not.
12:31
It's a rite of passage, Darren. All right, You've got to do it
12:33
at some point. But yeah, Neil Game and I've
12:37
been working my way through the Terry Pratchett books, but also
12:39
Agatha Christie. I'll read pretty much anything
12:42
and everything. Oh my.
12:43
God. OK, this is always a question to
12:45
ask person. What's your favorite Agatha
12:47
Christie? It would probably be and then
12:51
the one known. Oh, that's a banger, isn't it?
12:55
Mine's Roger Ackroyd. It was just the first one I read
12:59
with that twist at the end. So audacious that I I don't
13:02
think I've read a Christie since where I've been as shocked by
13:06
the twist ending. Yeah.
13:09
And that's what I had with And then There Were none.
13:11
Sort of the twist of it and sort of everything is revealed.
13:14
It's revealed. OK, I like that.
13:17
OK, so then with grim reality that we're covering today by
13:22
Simon Butcher Jones and Kelly Hale.
13:24
Simon Butcher Jones, who has written a couple of books before
13:27
this, Taking a Planet Five and one of the new adventures, the
13:31
death of our, one of which was quite unpopular and another
13:36
which was reasonably well, well received.
13:40
And Kelly Hale hasn't written any before.
13:42
How did you approach this then? If if you don't really
13:45
understand the arcs or the characters and all of that.
13:48
Was there a bit of trepidation approaching this?
13:51
There was a bit of trepidation because I, because I know it's
13:53
one of the later books I didn't know, are there going to be lots
13:56
of references to something that's happened or sort of am I
14:00
going to be able to follow it? But I did actually manage to
14:02
follow it and I through talking to you I managed to get a rough
14:05
impression of Fitz and Angie and Doctor and things to be able to
14:09
to follow it. Well, then, my first question
14:13
about the book is, do you like fairy tales?
14:16
Do you like Grimm's Tales? I do.
14:18
I do like the fairy tales and that was again one of the
14:21
appeals because I liked the idea, especially after like the
14:24
mind robber and stuff like that. Going into the fiction and the
14:27
fairy tale, I was really looking forward to seeing what they did
14:30
with it and how they approached it.
14:31
It's. It's see, I approach this with a
14:36
bit of nervousness and I have read this before, but a long
14:38
time ago because I'm not that big on fairy tales and grooms
14:43
and fables and things like that. I find it all a bit wishy washy.
14:47
I sort of like, if it's science fiction, I like it to be
14:51
something that sort of makes sense and has a sense of logic
14:54
to it. And I find with those Grimm's
14:56
tales, there's always a moral at the end of it, but they sort of
14:59
make up the rules as they go along with.
15:00
Yeah, I'd be like a Sleep of Moffett scripts, you know?
15:03
Yeah. Just decides what it's doing as
15:05
it goes. But the idea of a planet that is
15:09
absolutely built out of the rules of fairy tales, I thought
15:14
this this could be quite interesting.
15:16
Yeah. Same here.
15:17
I thought this is going to be quite interesting.
15:19
How are they? And I do like the darker fairy
15:22
tales and sort of the darker stories with sort of how you get
15:25
to the lesson at the end. There's a brilliant one I can't
15:28
remember, but it basically it's talking about a box found in the
15:32
woods and it and the box opened and inside and it says the end
15:35
and you never find out. So I like that sort of mystery.
15:40
But hang on, backtrack our box that just says the end and
15:45
that's the end of the story. Well, they open the box and they
15:48
never tell you what was in the box or what the people found in
15:51
the box. The story just ends.
15:53
I would be incandescent with rage at that end.
15:57
Are you telling me I've read this bloody story and you're not
15:59
giving me an ending? Well, how?
16:04
How did you think they did then with the planet Albert?
16:09
Because really what what occurs here is the Doctor, Fitz and
16:12
Angie and it is a complete standalone.
16:14
There's nothing like happening. They just land, don't they?
16:17
And then go their separate ways. The Doctor, Fitz and Angie all
16:22
sort of have a different fairy tale each that they go through.
16:27
How did you think the two authors here, How do you think
16:31
they structured the world and those particular stories?
16:34
I liked how they structured those three.
16:37
I wasn't so keen on the whole for Whim Science and the other
16:42
storyline of it. I wish they'd just kept to the
16:45
fairy tales and the three characters on the alien world.
16:49
I am in total agreement with you on that.
16:52
It's so weird, isn't it? Like I I, when you mash up
16:56
genres like that. So the fairy tales and the
16:58
science fiction, like you, they should sort of be integrated,
17:02
shouldn't they? But what happens in this book is
17:05
you've got the fairy tales in one scene, and then it's just
17:07
science fiction in another scene.
17:09
I found there were bits of it where they were writing.
17:12
It was like they were writing the fairy tales.
17:14
And then they went, oh, Christ, we've got this to put in there,
17:16
we'd better go back to it. Oh, yeah.
17:18
And then this happened on the spaceship.
17:20
Got away with it. Well, I was sort of trying to
17:23
figure out what that was all about.
17:24
As far as I could tell, there's a white hole, isn't there, that
17:28
orbits this planet, the planet Albert, and something spits out
17:33
of the white hole and lands on Albert and Christina.
17:39
Is that the name of the captain? Yes.
17:41
Lady. Not Lady Christina.
17:43
Sorry. That's the new series.
17:44
We'll call it Lady Christina. She then decides, right, we're
17:47
going to go down onto the planet and find out what's been spat
17:51
out of the white hole, because this could be valuable.
17:53
Yeah. But there's also a couple of
17:56
races in orbit as well. With them abenakan of women of
18:01
women looking for a cure for some illness that's affecting
18:04
their race or something. And OK, tell me if I'm wrong,
18:08
because I really was focusing mostly on the fairy tales.
18:11
One of those races is sentient hippopotami.
18:15
Yes, and one of those races is sentient insects.
18:19
Yes, that is correct. And the insects are the ones
18:22
that have this deadly plague. Yes.
18:24
And the hippopotamuses, well, they're just hippopotamuses.
18:27
Yeah, OK. Yeah, that's about it.
18:29
It isn't. Obvious, but that's sort of all
18:32
that happens with that plot, isn't it?
18:34
It's like, yeah, they sort of come down onto the planet, but
18:40
the the, the science fiction plot there and the grim reality
18:44
plot, they don't really. Come together.
18:48
I think I got the feeling it was very much a case of this is
18:52
Doctor Who. We've got to put some sci-fi in
18:54
there somewhere. There's got to be alien races.
18:58
Whereas if it was just a bit like the Mind Robert where the
19:01
Doctor Fitz and Andy are just in this on this fairy tale plant,
19:05
it would have worked better because the sci-fi stuff felt a
19:07
bit shoehorned in there. This Doctor Who has got to be
19:10
there. When it comes to the Doctor,
19:14
Fitz and Angie then, so you've got bits, who's essentially,
19:19
well, he starts off doing Goldilocks, doesn't he?
19:21
There's a cottage in the woods, so he does that story.
19:24
Angie's basically doing Cinderella.
19:27
It stuck with the the three hideous sisters and the doctor,
19:31
I figured was doing Jack and the Beanstalk because he climbs up a
19:34
massive. So should we take those one at a
19:36
time and see what we can dig out?
19:38
Because I thought all three of those were.
19:40
Really fun. Yeah, they were.
19:43
I wasn't so keen on the individual fairy tale written
19:47
passages that crop up every now and then.
19:51
I just figured they were, they were trying to sort of
19:53
narratively have fun with it, but they're kind of already
19:57
having fun with the regulars, yes.
19:59
Absolutely I. Mean, I mean, I do have one
20:02
massive issue with the right hand side of this, but I'll I'll
20:05
come to that later on. Well, look, where do you want to
20:08
start? The Doctor, Fitz or Angie?
20:11
We'll start with the Doctor. OK.
20:14
Or, or you mean Doctor Noel, don't.
20:16
You. Oh yes, Doctor Noel, the Doctor.
20:17
Is in Darren the Doctor is in OK, I don't know about you, but
20:23
I thought the characterization of the doctrine, this was great.
20:26
Like super energetic fun. Absolutely.
20:29
That doctor from the TV movie that.
20:32
Bound absolutely. That was the only I've read a
20:36
couple of books, but now the TV movie and sort of his appearance
20:40
and I hadn't didn't really know Paul Mcgann's Doctor, but I
20:44
could tell it was him, if that makes sense.
20:46
And it was a great character as a characterization.
20:50
I mean, I always, it was just fun.
20:52
And he was throwing himself in there and sort of getting swept
20:56
up in there. When you get the doctor right,
20:59
that's like half the battle with these, yeah.
21:01
Sometimes. Sometimes they just don't get
21:04
the character right. Yeah, but he's he's he's really
21:06
fun. And like I figured he figures
21:09
out this world quite quickly and, and how to sort of go along
21:13
with he figures out that it's like a world of bargains, isn't
21:16
it? That if you say that you're
21:18
going to do something on this world, the morality of it means
21:23
you've got to do it. Yeah.
21:24
Yeah, because I do like the moments where he realizes that
21:28
sort of he's got to do something.
21:31
Or he gets told sort of, you're going to do this, but it's not
21:34
going to work. Or he's the giant, the
21:36
housekeeper in the giant's house, and he sort of says,
21:39
you've already forgotten me once.
21:41
And he promises that sort of. I won't, but he knows.
21:46
I mean, he gets furious at one point, doesn't he?
21:48
Where I think Fitz and Andrew just go, well, let's just go
21:51
back to the TARDIS. And he goes, you don't
21:53
understand. That's not how this world works.
21:56
I made a promise to it is the the the the maid.
21:59
I think that works in a giant's place, isn't it?
22:01
I promised that I would help her and I've got to help her.
22:05
Which I really like that because it it felt like the doctor.
22:10
I mean, I mean, we're in total panto territory because halfway
22:14
through the book he does climb up a Beanstalk, doesn't he?
22:17
Into a giant's house, and in a spectacular moment, he's put
22:23
inside the giant's mouth and almost eaten.
22:28
Yes. Absurd, isn't it?
22:31
But I love it. Yeah, but it was brilliant and
22:33
you you could picture it. I could picture it being done on
22:37
TV and it would be a great episode.
22:40
What's so funny, that is when he goes, Oh my God, you've got
22:43
terrible teeth, you know, and suddenly he's appointed the
22:47
giant's orthodontist, doesn't he?
22:48
Isn't he? And you get the whole section
22:50
about him treating the the giant's teeth and Lancing
22:56
Lancing ulcers and things. You've got a lot of doctor that
22:58
can improvise, right? Absolutely.
23:01
Let your doctor know. Well, you've got to follow it up
23:03
exactly. Well, all right, so the so the
23:07
doctors involved in in Jack and the Beanstalk territory.
23:11
What about Angie? Now, I'll tell you now, Angie is
23:16
my personal favorite Doctor Who book companion.
23:21
That is not a popular opinion because she's sort of like Tegan
23:25
of the books. She's a bit grumpy and bossy but
23:28
like super capable and intelligent and I just like the
23:33
fact that she's. He.
23:35
Sort of will roll her sleeves up and go, right, come on, we're
23:37
going to get on with this, you know, and unfortunately, she's
23:41
stuck in this subservient role with these free wicked sisters.
23:45
What did you think about all of that?
23:47
I loved it because again, she she sort of questions making the
23:52
deal, makes the deal and then goes, what have I done?
23:54
And again, it's that balance of I'm used to be or I get
23:58
dependent on I'm used to being powerful.
24:00
I'm used to one being touched and now I'm here and I've got to
24:03
use my wits. But also like when she's
24:06
competing against Christine and the sort of I know I don't want
24:10
to win, but I want to win, I'm not losing.
24:14
She becomes a bit of a bitch and I say, yeah, she gets a bit
24:18
personal at times, doesn't she? But it was so well written, I
24:22
just again, got a really good impression of who she is, and I
24:26
just love that set those sections.
24:28
There was one moment where they said to her like, are you a
24:31
Princess in your world? And she goes, well I did have a
24:35
maid come in twice a week, so I think.
24:39
Don't you know who I am? And again, when she when she's
24:43
talking, when the giant that sort of falls in love with her.
24:47
And look, this isn't going to happen.
24:49
You're not You're not wishing for the following things.
24:53
Yeah, I can't remember. I remember because she obviously
24:57
she has this sort of, let's call it a bitch off with Christina as
25:01
to who's the fairest lady in the land.
25:04
And whoever wins essentially gets to marry the Prince.
25:07
Is that right? So one of them is who can carry
25:11
the most books. And in a very funny moment,
25:14
they're both carrying like hundreds of books to the point
25:17
where the books fall over at the same time and.
25:19
Make up? Yeah.
25:20
And they form an arch It's crazy.
25:24
What were the other ones? Was there a poetry?
25:25
There's one as well. There's the poetry competition,
25:28
which involves Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.
25:30
She gets, I think she gets Christina to sing it or recite
25:34
it as it is. And then Angie uses the same
25:37
words but the the thesaurus words so that it sounds grander.
25:43
And that works because when she was introduced in her first
25:46
story, her boyfriend, like, was a massive science fiction fan.
25:48
And I think she says, doesn't she in this?
25:51
Oh yeah, he told me this ridiculous version of Twinkle
25:54
Twinkle Little Star. So that it sounds brand.
25:57
And then there's I think it's a beauty.
26:00
They've got to talk to the blind guy and seduce him.
26:05
And then his wife turned someone, his wife turned up, or
26:09
someone. Yeah, I mean, I can't even
26:14
remember how that ended that one.
26:17
I I again, I think, is it that? He had to just feel them.
26:21
Or do they have to describe describe how they were?
26:25
They have to describe how they were and basically seduce him.
26:28
And then this other woman turns up and he bears.
26:30
He goes, I'm going and he just sort of leaves them to it.
26:34
And like, this alone, Yeah. So that's three.
26:37
That's three very fun ideas, those three tests.
26:40
Yeah. And this does show like, 1 of
26:42
this book's problems is I feel like the two writers had so many
26:45
ideas, and they're just going to throw them all in.
26:49
And there's enough ideas in those fairy tale sections
26:53
without all the other stuff. Yeah, that, that's what I found.
26:56
It reminded me a bit of a sort of Fish Chipnall episode on TV
27:00
or some Steven Muffett where I've got all these ideas, but I
27:03
have no idea what I'm going to do with them or how we're going
27:06
to wrap it up. And there's bits in it where the
27:09
scenes cut and you go one missed something.
27:14
Frequently you talk about Chipnall now, or this book or
27:16
both? Both.
27:17
Yeah. Fair.
27:18
That's fair. Well, then you've got Fitz, who
27:24
is easily the most popular book command of this range.
27:28
Yeah, Doctor Brooks, who has found himself wearing this
27:34
dreadful. Fur on his.
27:37
Back, which has a bit of A twist about it, doesn't.
27:42
It yes, which again, I, I, I loved Fitz again.
27:46
He's quickly become a favorite of mine, even just sort of from
27:50
that book because it was so well written.
27:54
You can sort of see the sarcasm and the humor there.
27:57
And again, he gets swept along and then left sort of beaten by
28:01
a house and all these other things that happened.
28:04
But he had. He always sort of stays in
28:06
character and he doesn't swear, but I think he uses fairy tale
28:10
words sort of as a replacement. Yeah.
28:13
He's. Not allowed to on this world is.
28:16
He yes, that's it. And again and again they made me
28:21
laugh and I really enjoyed reading those.
28:24
I think he's I love the Doctor, but his was probably my favorite
28:28
separate story to follow because of how well he was written.
28:32
They always put fits through hell, right?
28:35
He's stuck in the wake of these two ghastly Princess, isn't he?
28:38
They treated him very badly indeed.
28:42
And then we find out later on in the book that the wolf skin on
28:47
his back is, yeah, the third. Prince yes, but in chance that
28:52
was a good. I did like that.
28:54
Yeah, you. See you come in.
28:55
No. No, Did I?
28:58
Because they they throw it on the fire, don't they?
29:00
And then he sort of comes to life because Fitz tries to save
29:04
it. Yeah, I I really like that.
29:08
Would would you say that through reading about those 3 characters
29:14
in this book, the regulars that you would want to explore more?
29:18
Or. Have you sort of come out of
29:20
this game? Well, that's enough of those 3.
29:22
No, I, I want to know more because before this I tried
29:25
reading Hope de Montage and the Face Eaters.
29:33
And again, because they're sort of dotted around, I didn't
29:37
really know who the characters were.
29:39
So now that I know, and now that especially I've read this, I've
29:42
got a better idea. So I definitely want to read
29:45
more and sort of see what happens to them.
29:48
Interestingly, I did AI did a 8th Doctor book The Crooked
29:52
World which is Doctor Who visits Looney Tunes.
29:55
They were some quirky. Quirky stuff at this point in
29:57
the range and which is good, you know, they should sort of be
30:00
pushing the envelope. But the three people that read
30:03
that book, none of them had read about the Doctor Fitz and Angie
30:08
before. And they came away like, oh,
30:10
this is wasn't a great introductory story for them
30:13
because you're expected to know a lot about them before you read
30:17
the book. I think this is quite a good.
30:21
Yeah, definitely. And as I say, it made me want to
30:25
know more and it made me want to read sort of where they join, I
30:29
don't know, sort of are they companions that you do have
30:32
their first adventure story or is it a bit like Mel where they
30:35
just she just is there? With so Fitz has been with the
30:39
range now through two previous female companions.
30:43
So he's done about 25 books already before this and she's
30:48
only been in about 10 at this point, but she's sort of really
30:52
rolling at this point. But yeah, absolutely is there.
30:56
They're first books. Neither one of them are the
30:58
best, I'd say, of the range. But companion introduction books
31:03
aren't always the best, are they?
31:04
No. I mean, from the from the very
31:08
start when they land and you know that that massive forest
31:11
suddenly pops into existence and they can't get to the TARDIS.
31:15
I just thought it was super fun that you see the dynamics
31:19
immediately. The doctor's going, we're always
31:21
in this marvellous, you know, a forest has popped out of
31:24
nowhere. Fix is going oh for God's sake.
31:26
I'm cold, I'm hungry. And and she's rolling her
31:29
sleeves up going, come on, we're going to chop down the wood and
31:32
get back to the TARDIS. Yeah, You know, it's a fun
31:35
dynamic. I think it is.
31:37
And it really does work well because I think, well, certainly
31:41
in this book, I find they're each well balanced enough.
31:44
It's not sort of anyone's particularly sidelined out three
31:48
of them. Plus, I always think it's a good
31:51
idea, like a good Doctor Who story generally starts with all
31:55
the regulars together, split them all up, let them all have
31:58
their own story and a bit of agency, and then bring them
32:01
together again towards the climax.
32:03
And this book does that brilliantly.
32:04
Yes, absolutely. What about the original
32:10
characters in this then? They felt very 2D, very flat,
32:15
and to be perfectly honest, I didn't care when they lived or
32:18
died. I mean, the only one I really
32:22
was I really cared about was Christina, and that's only just
32:27
because they just gave her a lot of time.
32:29
You know, she's in a lot of scenes.
32:31
But again, one of the problems I found both with is it Alex
32:36
that's the other person that works with when they're sort of
32:40
with what happens to them. I again, have I missed
32:43
something? Have they when did they get
32:45
turned into a a fox and a cat and it's just sort of I missed
32:49
something. I.
32:51
Don't even remember that happening so I definitely miss
32:53
that. Yeah, I was just sort of, I had
32:56
to go back a couple of pages and go human there.
32:59
Now, have pages fallen out of this?
33:02
I think the trouble is they're not.
33:03
They're not very nice though, are they as well?
33:05
No. And I don't I.
33:07
Don't think every every character has to be nice, but
33:10
they're sort of a bit selfish and self-centered.
33:13
Yeah, and I guess that's the whole point of in fairy tales,
33:16
if you're selfish and self-centered, you're going to
33:18
get your comeuppance and something's going to happen to
33:19
you. Like when Alex is trying to
33:22
dispose of the TARDIS key and it turns up in the Fission Benz.
33:26
I love that, yeah, I love the fact that he threw that key away
33:30
and then there's like 5 different ways the key turns up,
33:32
isn't it? But again, the the last time it
33:35
sort of says you're going to get the key to the doctor, and then
33:38
when he does, he's a fox and it's just like, what the hell.
33:43
What happens, you know? I guess it's sort of the
33:46
Metro's. On Albert Darren.
33:48
Absolutely. Albert's up for anything.
33:52
What? So?
33:53
OK, hang on, Albert. The planet.
33:56
Yeah. It's a malleable planet, isn't
33:58
it? It's a planet that can be
33:59
shaped. Yes.
34:01
And I did write down what happened, but I now it
34:07
absolutely eludes me. Is it is it something to do with
34:10
the white hole that means it is now shaped by fairy tales?
34:14
I, I think it's because these boxes come through all these,
34:17
this energy comes through and that starts to affect the planet
34:22
and that starts to shape things. But then I wasn't quite sure
34:25
because I see Angie at the beginning, he's reading this
34:28
fairy tale book. So I don't know if it's the case
34:31
of she's reading this book, the sentient boxes pick up on that
34:35
and then it all goes from that. I mean, I I did love the
34:40
bookends of her, yes, the storybook and then closing the
34:44
storybook. But then I was thinking, OK, so
34:46
did all this just happen in her head then?
34:48
That's that's what led me to is this the story that's happening
34:54
inside that book? Is this happening in Angie's
34:57
heads? It felt a bit confused, but at
35:00
the same time it didn't bother me that much because I liked how
35:04
they were written. When you've got as many set
35:08
pieces in a book as this has, yeah, and they're as fun as they
35:11
are, I can sort of just go with the ride.
35:14
Yeah, absolutely. Rather than like, and I was
35:19
really struggling with like the the science fiction bits that
35:23
the William. William, Yeah.
35:24
Is that how you say it? That that's how I read it and
35:26
that's how I I think of. It an AB abanak.
35:30
The Abanak. Bloody science fiction names.
35:34
Yeah, Wait till you explore the new adventures more, all right?
35:37
You have a lot more of that going.
35:38
On God, for better and for worse.
35:41
They have one race where it's just all punctuation marks.
35:46
Because. In your head you're going, Oh
35:48
well, how the fuck do I say that?
35:52
This was written by two people, Simon Butcher Jones and Kelly
35:56
Hale. I think you can tell.
36:00
And that was my big complaint with how this was written.
36:03
I can tell when Simon Butcher Jones is writing and when Kelly
36:06
Hale is writing because some scenes were written with the
36:11
smoothest prose I've read in a long time and they skipped
36:14
along, and other scenes, and it was mostly the science fiction
36:17
ones were there was one page that was a paragraph, a whole
36:22
page. Yeah, I I noticed that as well.
36:26
You could very much tell sort of the two different writing styles
36:30
and it was very stop start, whereas it should just flow
36:33
through. And again, as I say this, sorry
36:38
here I'm. Well, I was going to say, do you
36:39
imagine then one of them took the fairy tale stuff, One of
36:43
them took the science fiction stuff.
36:45
I, I, I, I wasn't too sure as I was reading it, but I, I know
36:50
that the fairy tale stuff, it just skipped by, whereas the
36:53
science fiction stuff, it was just these enormous passages.
36:58
That was my impression that one of them had gone I'll do the
37:01
sci-fi stuff and you do the fairy tale stuff.
37:04
And I, I sort of got the impression maybe because of
37:07
Simon's other writings, because you've gone, I'll do the sci-fi
37:09
because I've done that before. You can do the fairy tale
37:11
because that's not as important and it sort of it could be
37:14
anything. Weird enough, I completely agree
37:18
actually. I've read Simon Butcher Jones's
37:20
Death of Art and there are extremely long passages in that
37:23
as well, and it's very dense science fiction and it's a bit
37:27
confusing. And I just thought that the
37:29
passages from Andrew's point of view were so convincing.
37:34
I thought a woman, a woman has. Written this?
37:36
Absolutely, yeah. You know, only a woman that's
37:38
been slighted by another woman has written this.
37:41
Because the other thing I thought also maybe Kelly has a
37:45
thing for Paul Mcgahn because there was a lot of and she
37:47
slapped his ass and sort of she peed.
37:50
Oh, there's someone with, there's someone with crush on
37:53
Paul Mcgahn's gone. I can't do it in person, but in
37:55
this book I can slap his ass and I can have a snog or a grog or a
37:59
dance, whatever with him. There was a wonderful bit it
38:02
wasn't there where he's taken the old woman across the river
38:06
and that she describes his hair as romantic flowing locks.
38:11
And I thought, oh, yeah, that's Kelly, all right.
38:14
Or Simon Butcher Jones in a particularly horny moment,
38:17
maybe. Who knows?
38:18
Well, yes, we're not casting aspersions on I of you, we
38:21
promise. But yeah, in a way, the.
38:24
Have you ever read any of the Kate Orman and Jonathan Blum
38:27
books? No.
38:29
So it's vampire science seeing. On vampire science, I've.
38:33
Read and there's the I just can't tell they they are I mean
38:37
they're a couple John Blum and Kate Orman, but there's they're
38:41
writing style we're so In Sync in.
38:44
That book, you wouldn't have known it was two people writing
38:46
it. Whereas sometimes it's obvious.
38:49
Yes, yes. I was going, oh, OK, we've
38:53
switched writers again. Oh God, strap yourself in.
38:55
I actually think if it had just been Kelly and it had just been
38:58
the fairy tale fantasy side, it would have been a better book.
39:03
One of the one of the strengths of the 8th Doctor books is that
39:10
they brought in more women to not not, I mean, it wasn't like
39:14
pro feminism, you know, there's still only about 5 or 6 women
39:17
right for that range. But you had Jacqueline Rayner
39:20
coming in, Kate Orman was doing them, Lloyd Rose did a couple,
39:24
obviously Kelly Hale here, Max L Halladay.
39:27
The problem I have with the New Adventures is they're all men
39:30
apart from Kate Orman. And so they're very or sort of
39:34
laddish. Yeah, yeah, that, that's what
39:37
I've gathered from what I've heard, there's sort of a lot of
39:40
sex and violence. A lot of people, again maybe
39:42
like Simon getting their fan or Kelly getting their fantasies
39:45
out there. I.
39:47
Mean why not right, you're writing a book, you may as.
39:49
Well, absolutely get away like I know in the new adventures ace
39:54
in the sort of the the leather. I mean, if you like that sort of
39:59
thing, good luck to you because you're going to get a lot of it.
40:01
All right. Big guns and a leather costume.
40:03
Yeah, mind you. OK, well, this doesn't intrigue
40:05
me to ask you then. Darren, if you was writing ABBC
40:08
8th Doctor book, what fantasies would you put down on the page?
40:14
That is a very good and for legal purposes it's being
40:19
recorded. I shall keep those to myself.
40:22
That's very wise, you. Know spoilers?
40:24
Yeah, I mean, I'd have Fitz and the Doctor head into the TARDIS,
40:27
you know, Andrew, you, they were the fairy tale.
40:29
You just, you just stay. There, Alex.
40:32
Come with us, Alex. Seen coming up for me in Mad
40:35
Dogs where Fitz and the Doctor naked and that's right.
40:41
Yes, and Angie and and Paul Mars describes vividly how Andrew is
40:46
trying very hard not to look and fails.
40:51
Yeah, it's very funny. Question is, which does she
40:53
prefer? Well, quite well.
40:56
You'll have to read it and find. Out who?
40:57
Who would you write? Who would you rather see out of
40:59
the two of them? What?
41:01
Fitzer. The Doctor?
41:02
Oh, I don't know. You see, because I imagine
41:05
Fitzer's played by Matt D'Angelo because he played him in Big
41:07
Finish and he's very pretty. But then, of course, Paul
41:11
McGann. It's a tricky one.
41:13
Well, what about you? I'd probably go for Paul McGann
41:17
because he was pretty when he started but he has aged well as
41:20
well. So, well, did you see, did you
41:23
go and see him on stage? No, I I wanted to, but I missed
41:27
out on that it. Was incredible.
41:29
Do you know? I mean, he was incredible, yeah.
41:31
He didn't need the script in front of him.
41:33
No, he just had it. He he'd naturally.
41:36
I get the impression he's naturally the Doctor, if that
41:39
makes sense. Did you get a sense of Paul
41:41
McGann in this book? It took a little bit to get
41:45
going, but again, because I've not read much of his stuff, but
41:49
as it went on, I definitely got a clear picture and I could
41:52
pitch to him as the Doctor and him saying these things, whereas
41:56
other books I've registered, well, I can't imagine that
41:59
Doctor would speak like that or that companion would talk in
42:02
that way. But this, as it went on, I
42:04
definitely got sort of an idea I could pitch to Mcgann's Doctor.
42:10
One of the things I really like about the 8th Doctor at this
42:14
point, because this is the point where spoilers, you probably
42:19
know this already, Gallifrey has been destroyed and the Doctor
42:22
has lost his memories. So he's basically a brand new
42:25
man from the middle of the books.
42:27
And he's a bit more dangerous as a result.
42:31
And he has a few moments in this where he's suddenly violent and,
42:35
yeah, angry, you know, in a way. That yeah, I got the impression
42:40
from those moments, a bit like the 11th and 12th Doctor, it's
42:43
that anger that he's lived a long time.
42:46
He's been through things whether he obviously he knows them or
42:49
not, but they're there in the back of his memory.
42:51
So then when people do start, then oh, well, we'll just go
42:53
back to the TARDIS and leave it. He goes, no, I've made a
42:56
promise, I'm going to put this right or I'm going to see this
42:59
through. And I really like that side to
43:01
the Doctor. What I, I mean, I did like the
43:05
sci-fi BLOB, but what I did like about how they wrapped it up was
43:08
the Doctor uses the the wishes that you're granted, Yes, as a
43:14
result of the Grimm's fairy tales to wish that the William
43:18
were cured. Yeah.
43:20
And I thought that was very neat.
43:21
Yes, because again, I was getting a bit concerned again in
43:25
the coming back, sort of the Chipman stuff was the books
43:28
rolling along and you sort of look at what's left and you
43:30
have, well, there's not a lot of pages left to wrap this up.
43:34
Please tell me it's not going to be and it will.
43:36
They all live happily ever after the end.
43:38
But the ending really works that they condensed a lot into a
43:42
short amount, but it all works and it all fits in there.
43:46
Because sort of as you head towards the climax, the planet
43:50
itself is sort of reacting. Yeah, because they're being
43:54
ripped. Apart you get descriptions of
43:57
like great Ruby towers because. The abenak and trying to and
44:00
sort of they're trying to pull stuff off of the planet and try
44:04
and RIP it apart to make it and make some money and the planets
44:07
reaction. I thought there was a comet.
44:10
I saw a kind of strong commentary on greed there.
44:13
You know, of of course these people have found this glorious,
44:16
wonderful, magical planet and they're trying to tear it apart
44:20
for what it's worth. Absolutely, Len.
44:23
I suppose things don't change the universe over.
44:26
Do they? No, but again, that's why it
44:30
didn't need to be alien rated. It could have been humans trying
44:33
to. Again, it could have been if it
44:37
was humans on the planet that were sort of trying to use the
44:40
fairy tales for their own greed and things that could have done
44:45
the same thing as the whole wind stuff.
44:48
Do you remember the IMC from Colony in Space?
44:51
The mine in. Corporate.
44:52
It could have been that, couldn't it?
44:53
It could. Have been absolutely.
44:55
Yeah, that would have been perfect for.
44:56
But again, at least there's continuity there.
44:59
Europe. But these are just sort of
45:00
random people that have just turned up and 2D characters of
45:03
I'm going to be greedy. And it's like you said, with so
45:08
much happening on this planet, do we really then need a race of
45:11
hippopotamuses, a race of insects?
45:13
It's like, you know, we know you've got ideas, guys, but
45:16
just, you know, Terrence Dicks would have gone right.
45:19
Three big ideas. That's all you're getting.
45:22
I will explore them. Well, you know, but.
45:25
Then I also wonder if maybe Simon sort of, oh, I wanted to
45:28
write the fantasy, so I'm going to write some sci-fi and I'll
45:31
just hippos, insects, Baldu. No one's going to be paying
45:36
attention to this bit of it. No one's going to be reading my
45:39
bits. Yeah.
45:41
Yeah. No, that's that's a strong
45:43
possibility. Yeah.
45:43
Yeah. Why should Kelly have all the
45:45
fun? Yeah, of course we could put
45:48
this episode out and then one of them will contact us and say,
45:50
excuse me, I wrote the fact that.
45:52
Yeah, so sorry. Yeah, Simon.
45:56
Simon will get in touch and go. Excuse me, I was the one with
45:58
the theme for Paul Mcgahn. And why not?
46:03
There was. I do think as well, the ending
46:05
was really uplifting. Everyone's having a dance and
46:09
there's AI wrote down a quote here where the Doctor goes.
46:13
What I've discovered on this planet is even more wonderful.
46:16
It's that I love what I do and I want to go everywhere and see
46:19
everything that I love. That's the gift I take with me.
46:22
I just thought that was such a lovely.
46:24
The idea sort of what would you wish for and the doctors?
46:26
I wouldn't wish for anything because I've got what I need.
46:29
I've got what I need here. The trouble is right is he
46:33
spends 100 years on Earth. Yeah, when he's amnesiac, trying
46:37
to figure out who he is, he hasn't got the TARDIS or
46:39
anything, that he gets the TARDIS back at the end of that
46:42
run of books. And this is sort of the opening
46:45
steps into him going back out into the universe.
46:48
And this is the point where you have two or three books on the
46:51
run where it's like, yes, the universe is wonderful.
46:53
Let's explore all of this. He reaches this conclusion at
46:56
the end, and then guess what happens?
46:59
Things get very dark indeed. No, no, no.
47:01
But. But suddenly, you know, there's
47:04
a new arc in place. There's a new super villain,
47:07
whole universes are being destroyed, and it's like, give
47:10
him a break for God's, yeah. Like that's what I know, and I
47:13
know, like you guys have said it about the new adventures, just
47:17
let the doctor be happy. People don't have to be
47:19
miserable and suffering the whole time.
47:22
But it does mean that moments like this, books like Grim
47:25
Reality and Mad Dogs and Englishmen, which you've still
47:28
got to read, are great because they're those points where
47:31
things are just sort of calm and he's having a.
47:33
Great time, it's just a fun adventure.
47:37
I think that is a that is a problem in Doctor Who in
47:40
general, is that I know there's great drama in making people
47:45
suffer. Sometimes I'm just like, oh man,
47:48
just cut him a break, you know? But the other good thing as well
47:52
is with books like this and Mad Dogs and things that you can
47:54
just go into them, read them. You don't need to have read 15
47:58
other books to enjoy this one. Although you know, it sounds
48:03
like you are going to read those 15 hour.
48:05
Books anyway. Absolutely, I'm very much
48:08
looking forward to reading them. But it is nice to, especially
48:11
when because it is hard to get a complete collection of the 8th
48:14
doctors without selling a kidney and remortgage in your house.
48:18
So it is nice to have those books you can dip into and enjoy
48:22
while trying to get the others together.
48:26
Can I ask you like, what's what's your preference?
48:28
Because this is obviously a, a sort of sidestep Doctor Who
48:32
adventure, IE it's not set in the future, it's not set in the
48:37
past, it's not set on Earth. It's it's, it's a very, like you
48:41
said, mind robber, very quirky. Do you like those sort of
48:45
stories? Do you think they can do those
48:46
sort of stories very often or just one offs?
48:49
I like the one offs. I like the sort of, I prefer the
48:53
sort of the gritty. I like the stories where there
48:56
is a chat, a decision to make or you do see the consequences of
49:01
the actions and things. But I do like these odd little
49:05
the fairy tale, the fantasy ones again that show the strangeness
49:09
of the universe and the wondering just of there's still
49:12
things out there. But I've definitely run like a
49:16
historical or something with a good story rather than lots of
49:21
explosions for the sake of it. I have heard the complaint that
49:25
there's too many of these quirky sidesteps at this point in the
49:28
8th Doctor books. I don't listen to that at all,
49:32
though, because I think if these books, if you ever write in
49:35
these books, don't just write traditional Doctor Who's
49:37
stories. Yeah, literally, you've got
49:40
that. The whole of human imagination.
49:42
Yeah, absolutely. Use it.
49:44
You. Know yeah definitely and that's
49:46
what Doctor Who especially as like some of the TV episodes and
49:51
it's always the same humans go into space this happened then
49:55
this happens conclusion but actually use your imagination
49:59
use different time periods and like so it doesn't always have
50:02
to be aliens involved. No, although in the case of this
50:08
book it does, unfortunately. I, I there was something else I
50:14
wanted to ask you about, and that is the three characters
50:19
that the Doctor, Fitz and Angie, but they're basically they're,
50:23
they're companions in this because for the Doctor, it's
50:28
inex, isn't it? Yes.
50:30
What is he, a dwarf? A troll.
50:32
Yeah, a gnome. A gnome.
50:34
That's it. Sorry and glass.
50:39
But if it's obviously it's, it's the wolf skin.
50:41
Yeah. Isn't it?
50:42
And the the other Prince. And for Angie, it's.
50:46
It's the ogre or the troll that helps her with the sewing, which
50:51
she loves to make. The dresses, yeah.
50:54
And I thought all those 3 original characters worked
50:56
because they were used sparingly.
50:58
Yeah, because they all were aiding them at various points in
51:03
the books. I, I I really liked all three of
51:06
those characters. Yeah, they they worked well
51:08
because, as you say, they were just you.
51:09
They were you sparingly short, but you didn't need their entire
51:13
back story to know who they were.
51:16
Inex is just sort of this headed this dwarf in a glass crystal
51:20
ball or something like that. He gets released, he helps the
51:23
doc that you don't need to know how we ended up in there how
51:25
long he's been in there or even like the wolf so he's got his
51:30
wolf skin. It helps him out.
51:31
Then you find out who is. But you don't need the back
51:33
story of how this all happened. That's.
51:36
That's not what how fairy stories work, right?
51:38
These greatest tales, you don't get a load of exposition about
51:41
these characters. They usually fulfil a function
51:44
in the story and that's. It, yeah, absolutely.
51:47
And I do think at times with the whole of Doctor Who, sometimes
51:51
less is more and you don't. And again, I love Steven Moffett
51:55
stories and things, but sometimes they were so
51:57
complicated and so, well, actually if you'd just done a
52:00
little bit less, this would have been smoother and better.
52:05
I often think, and not just with Steven Moffett, with Rusty Davis
52:08
and Chris Chipnall as well, is that they just needed someone to
52:11
say that's too much. That's what I found, especially
52:15
with Russell coming back, it's very much felt like I've come
52:20
back, I can do whatever I want and no one's going to say no to
52:23
me and it's not a way for the best.
52:26
What you've got here with Grim Reality is Justin Richards, who
52:30
is currently like, the creative editor of The Range, and
52:34
Jacqueline Rayner, who is a brilliant editor of books.
52:38
And I don't think they said to Kelly Hale and Simon Butcher
52:43
Jones too much. Just claw it back a bit.
52:47
Just just keep it. Just remember what you're
52:50
writing. Because I was taking a lot of
52:52
notes whilst reading this, but if I hadn't like half of this
52:56
stuff I wouldn't remember because it's just too much to
52:58
carry, you know? Yeah.
53:00
And like I said to you, I I read it and I was writing a few
53:03
notes, but I did have to go back and sort of skin read it and
53:06
flick through it and just write more down because as you say,
53:09
there is of a lot going on, a lot to remember and take in and
53:13
all the different character names and things.
53:16
My, my challenge to you is to read Mad Dogs and Englishmen at
53:20
some point in the near future, because that is, what, 1-2 books
53:25
after this? Yeah.
53:27
Very quirky. I mean, you've seen the cover,
53:29
right? Yes.
53:30
Yes. An enormous pink poodle smoking
53:33
the cigarillo. And it has the Doctor, Fitz and
53:35
Angie scattered in three different stories.
53:38
Again. But I promise you that's written
53:41
by Paul Marsh, who is a highly skilled writer of books.
53:45
You'll get to the end of that without taking a single note and
53:48
you won't forget any part or any plot.
53:51
So there is a skill to it I think.
53:52
Yeah, absolutely. And that's how it should be.
53:55
You shouldn't have to write a whole essay just to remember the
53:58
the points and be able to discuss it.
54:01
Oh boy, wait till you get to the adventurous on Henrietta Street
54:04
then. Oh, right.
54:06
OK then. I am very much looking forward
54:08
to that. One, Do you enjoy reading?
54:10
Reading sort of critical dissertations, Aaron.
54:14
I I can't say they're my first choice of things to read.
54:17
Maybe put that one to the bottom of the pile then?
54:20
Oh, right. OK.
54:21
The whole thing is written in the style of basically a
54:24
historical essay, so so none of it is written as actual prose,
54:31
but it is brilliant. I think you'll have it like this
54:34
particular period of the 8th Doctor books.
54:37
I've made no secret of the fact that it's my favorite period of
54:40
the books ever, just because you've got something as insane
54:44
as this. And then next to that you've got
54:47
the adventurous and registered and then you've got mad dogs and
54:49
then like a few down the line you've got anachrophobia.
54:53
Yeah, that's what I'm looking forward to getting.
54:55
Into have you got that one? Yeah.
54:56
Oh, scary as hell. Find yourself a really sort of
55:01
windy night? Yeah, open up the window a
55:04
crack, put your duvet around you, and then watch people get
55:08
turned into clocks. Yeah, because I've got that.
55:11
I've then got Crooked World History 101, Camera Obscure, and
55:14
Time 0. I'm so jealous you're reading
55:17
all those for the first time. You're.
55:18
Oh. I've got City of the Dead as
55:20
well. Oh, another banger.
55:23
You've got some good times ahead, you know.
55:25
Yes. Yeah.
55:27
Well, do you have any, any other overall force, any notes,
55:31
anything we haven't covered on Grim Reality?
55:35
I think we've pretty much covered everything.
55:37
I think again, it just needed a little bit of tidying because it
55:41
did feel a bit cutting between scenes and it just needed a
55:45
little bit of refining. But overall I enjoyed it.
55:50
I wouldn't say it's the best book I've ever read, but it
55:53
certainly wasn't awful or unreadable.
55:55
It wasn't a slog to read. I think if you can, if you can
56:01
say the quality of a book is did I have a good time, then this
56:06
was a high quality book because I did have a good time with you.
56:09
Absolutely. But I could really feel those
56:13
writing styles fighting each other at times.
56:17
And I don't think that should that that had to be the case.
56:20
No, absolutely. I, I read it and I enjoyed it
56:24
and it didn't feel like a slog to read, but especially the
56:27
sci-fi this, this doesn't need to be here.
56:31
And that sort of took the edge off reading a bit because, as I
56:36
say, it was just disjointed. If Kelly Howe maybe should have
56:40
just been given the opportunity to write her first solo Doctor
56:44
Who book, yeah, we could have dispensed with all of that side,
56:47
you know, technobabble junk. Yeah.
56:48
And just absolutely, yeah. And then I think it would be a
56:52
lot more well received book. Yeah, because at the time it
56:58
went down quite well. But it's in the unfortunate
57:02
position of being surrounded by books because some of the most
57:05
popular city of the dead, adventurous mad dogs like it
57:09
doesn't really have a hope because those are big hitters.
57:14
I think also like the is it the wood woes that sits on top of
57:18
the TARDIS and the Sphinx and things?
57:20
I think there would have been more room to explore them if it
57:23
wasn't for the sci-fi stuff. I think they sort of went right,
57:27
we've got to write 300 and whatever page, but this number
57:30
is for the fancy, this is for the sci-fi, and I think it's
57:33
suffered because of it. What the hell was that thing on
57:37
top of the TARDIS? Did it grow from a tree?
57:40
Yeah, I think it's hold on a tree or something that splits
57:45
open. I mean, it's a great cover.
57:48
I do love the cover of the book. Yeah.
57:50
And again, I was looking at sort of who's this character?
57:52
And it's just sort of, yeah, you know, a man that came from a
57:55
tree and. Sal The.
57:57
TARDIS and that's it. He gave out acorns.
58:00
He. Doesn't really do anything.
58:01
Does. He no, I think he gives and he
58:05
gives Christina the acorns that help with the wishes at towards
58:11
the end. I see.
58:14
More stuff happening, Darren. Jesus Christ.
58:16
I mean, I think my biggest take away from this was, you know, I
58:20
always remember these three regulars as being great
58:23
characters to read about. And it confirmed my belief that
58:28
they're really fun. They're distinct personalities
58:31
in their own right, but together, they work together
58:34
like gangbusters. Yeah.
58:37
I I would agree and as I say I it's made me want to read more
58:41
and re read the other books I've got but also sort of get copies
58:46
of the books I had before and revisit home and the Facey and
58:50
sort of sort of read read things and I understand more about the
58:54
characters. I might enjoy the books more.
58:57
I mean, I don't want to give you an unrealistic expectation of
59:00
these books. There are some dogs.
59:02
Oh yeah, I I'm, I'm fully expecting that.
59:06
Have you read War? Oh yeah, you have read War the
59:08
Darlings, haven't you? Yes.
59:09
Yeah, you survived. Yeah, that was that was one of
59:12
the ones that put the that helped put the nail on the
59:14
coffin to begin my hands. Oh OK, well thank you very much
59:19
for reading Grim Reality because it looks like we both had AI
59:23
mean you was wasn't you travelling.
59:24
I mean these books are great for travelling.
59:26
I. Thought yeah I was reading it to
59:30
when my way to Pandora and on my way back isn't really the
59:33
majority of it. Well, I mean, I don't know if
59:37
there's any conventions coming up soon, but I believe you are
59:41
about 2/3 of your way through the next Doctor Who book that
59:45
we're going to cover all. Right.
59:48
Is that right? World game, yes.
59:51
Dicks, Yes, very much yeah. Nearly finished that.
59:54
How did we even reach the conclusion of of World Game?
59:58
Was it just it was on your shelf?
1:00:00
Yeah, yeah, I, I think I sent a picture of all the books and
1:00:02
basically went, what do you think I should, what do you
1:00:05
think I should read next? Like without without pre empting
1:00:08
that conversation in terms of like writing style.
1:00:11
It's a much easier book to read, isn't it?
1:00:14
Yeah, it's, it's, well, I only started reading it so sort of
1:00:17
Saturday evening and I'm already sort of 3/4 of the way through
1:00:21
it because it's just an easy, yeah, just reading it.
1:00:24
I could picture it going on and you don't need a history degree
1:00:28
to read it, but I could visualize it in my head.
1:00:30
And I think that's good sign of good prose.
1:00:33
I I could follow it and it's just a free fun flowing story.
1:00:38
And even if you haven't read players, you can read this as a
1:00:42
stand alone and enjoy it. And I think, I think it's the
1:00:46
very last Doctor Who book that Terence wrote before stopping.
1:00:52
So will you entice me? I'll pick it up today then.
1:00:56
Yeah, as I say, I, I, I will probably finish it today, but
1:01:00
I've really enjoyed reading it. Well, we will.
1:01:04
We will cover that on our next episode.
1:01:06
Can I ask you where you are online if people want to find
1:01:11
you at the back of listening to this episode?
1:01:14
I'm on Twitter, I think it's who's Ezra.
1:01:18
I'm on Instagram which is Darren B 221 nice Sherlock Holmes
1:01:23
reference and I have joined. Blue sky now.
1:01:26
I am on blue sky and I shall be heading away from winter at some
1:01:30
point. That seems to be the popular
1:01:32
direction, doesn't it? Absolutely.
1:01:34
Yeah, yeah. So I I'm about there it out
1:01:37
there time and space. Well, that just leaves me to say
1:01:41
thank you very much for coming with me to Albert.
1:01:45
Let's just say until next time. Until next time.