Latest / Pathological Positivity / Film, Family, Faith – with Anna and Kent Thalman – Episode #680
Transcript
- This is Live On Purpose Radio, episode 680, film Family Faith with Anna and Kent Tallman. Now is the only time to create and live the life you love. I'm doctor Paul Jenkins, the positivity psychologist. My job is to connect you to powerful positive psychology principles that immediately upgrade your relationships, business, and mental health. Are you ready? Let's jump in. Hello. Welcome back to Live On Purpose Radio. This is doctor Paul the shrink who expands your life with another episode of Live On Purpose Radio. Joining me on the mic today are a husband and wife writer director team whose powerful films explore real life challenges like grief, loss, resilience. We're going to have a fun conversation today as we talk about what happens when storytelling becomes a tool for healing, connection, and purpose. Welcome to Live on Purpose Radio, Kent and Anna. Hello, my friend.... For having us. Hey. I've been looking forward to this conversation. As you know, a few months ago, I got an invitation from you, Anna, to attend a screening of your film, Ride in Paradise. And I was thrilled to attend that. And this is the first feature length film that I've seen that you guys have created. Mhmm. And it really touched me. It really moved me on a lot of levels. And I'll talk about maybe what some of those touch points were today. But I'd love to first invite the two of you to share a little bit about your story and why you even do this, because I think it's a lot of work. I don't know. Maybe it's easy, but I don't think it's very easy to produce a film. Talk to me a little bit about, the backstory here and why you do what you do. Yeah. With, with Ride in Paradise, it all started with a few misguided AI prompts that just turned into a movie. And, and it was, yeah, it was a piece of cake. It was an accident, actually. Yeah. It turned out really nice. So, anyway, that's all a joke. Sorry. It's a poor sense of humor. But, the, yeah. I mean, like, do you... I I guess, backstory. Are you looking for backstory on, like, ride in paradise or just us in general? I think you in general. I I know a little bit of the backstory behind ride in paradise. Mhmm. But, there's some... You were making films before ride in paradise. Yeah. And and there's something about that, and it's interesting to me that we've got a married couple here. You guys... I mean, there's a whole set of dynamics we could talk about about working with your spouse. Yeah. But just just a little bit of the backstory of why you do what you do. Anna? I mean, is that you, Anna? You get to take that one. I get to take this one, I guess. I I mean, I think that both of us have always been interested in the arts if we go way back. You know? I I wanted to be a writer when I was eight years old, and then I wanted to be, like, a visual artist and then took a journalism class, and I got to interview people. And I really enjoyed connecting with people in that way where I could ask them personal questions that I normally wouldn't, which is maybe some of the documentary side for me. I know that Kent also, from a very young age, was making movies with his friends and doing a book report on Spielberg and really, really, really bad movies. I mean, like, this is the Sure. The days of high school. Oh. Evite bad, but you just cut and shoot and shoot and cut. And the medium, like Anna said, was this this beautiful, like... To me, it felt like the, like, apex of culture. Like, this mix of, like, all, like, composition and light and photography and even painting and and Choreography. Like, any kind of ship. You know? Like... And Yes. Music. I love music, and and it's just everything and drama and storytelling. And so, yeah, it's like this unbelievable thing, and it's almost overwhelming. But I think that was something we connected on when we met Mhmm. Among many other things. And, and now we have this dysfunctional thing that we're just trying to do all the things at the same time together all the time, and it's it's, it's required a remarkable amount of fluidity and, just being really, like, you know, like, when we got engaged, it was, well, we'll homeschool, like, you know, a million kids, and we'll make films together. And we'll... I don't know. We had this completely, like, logistically We wanted feasible vision. These things, and we didn't know how they all fit together. But Some some of those things have had to, like, dust and change. And so that's... It's been it's been quite interesting. But I think, ultimately, it's just a very powerful medium. Like Kent said, it incorporates so many different art forms. It's such a group effort. A lot of art is kind of Right. Painter alone in their room or an... Even a music artist could kind of do a lot of it on their own. But film is not that way. You have to collaborate with a huge team of people on one vision, and that's part of why I love it. And then there's the audience experience and that participation and dialogue. So I just love that medium and its power for good or evil, but, you know, it is a a powerful tool, and I think we both felt called to it. And we've figured out... I mean, I won't say we figured it out, but we're figuring it out Yeah. How to navigate it with fail. Yeah. The, the power of storytelling Mhmm. Is incredible. I'm a professional speaker, and, obviously, as we share stories on the stage, that's what really drives home a point. In fact, there's a saying in the industry that facts tell, stories sell. And it's because it moves people's emotion. And it's our emotions that have us showing up in a particular way. And this medium that you have chosen, I agree. It's one of the more... Most powerful ways to convey a story. It's almost like you can take the audience and the mind of anyone in your audience and bring them along into the story Yeah. So that they're experiencing it. And in fact, there's a a part of our brain that doesn't know the difference between reality and imagination. Mhmm. And you can literally transport someone into a story as if they were experiencing it themselves. Yeah. And I felt that way as I watched your ride in paradise. And to get really nerdy, I mean, like, in film theory, we talk about mirror neurons and this idea that when you watch someone, you know, film is auditory and visual. But if you watch someone eating an ice cream cone on film, that's, you know, lighting up parts of your brain that experience taste and temperature and, you know, all these other senses as well as we watch it. Right. Yeah. It's kind of a whole body experience. I can totally geek out on the psychology behind this. But I think as you're listening to this episode, dear listener, you might be really relating with, oh, yeah. I have seen movies where I was transported into a whole other reality. And and we experienced that. It's really kind of a form of, we talk about hypnosis, you know, as if it's some kind of woo woo mystical thing. But it's just exactly what we're talking about here. That your mirror neurons, your empathy for other humans, It... Every... All of that comes into play as you experience this story. Now I I wanna use that to transition a little bit because I've worked with a lot of people over the years where this theme becomes reality. And the theme is your mess becomes your message. And you're you're gonna relate to this a little bit. And maybe we can we can look at this particular film that you made, Ride in Paradise, as an example of that, because you're bringing your professional skills, what what you referred to, Anna, as your calling. Okay. Okay. All of that comes together and combines with a painful life experience that you had. And then that mess becomes your message and has now touched so many lives. Can we talk about that for just a minute? Yes. Let's transition into that particular project and as much or as little as you'd like to share about your personal journey that made that project so meaningful to you? Yeah. I I wanna start answering that question by by, you know, just what you just said. Your mess becomes your message. Something that we we find a lot in film, especially nowadays, is that people kinda co opted either to sell something or to, which which isn't always nefarious. It's just it's just a use. But then, or or they use it to kind of try and convert someone into a certain worldview. And while we are people of of deep faith and we have our own worldviews, and and those and those worldviews, you know, part of it's like we have no effort. We don't need to put any effort into explaining those in our films because Right. We just we just believe that artists will make what they are if they're being honest. And so, like, that's just gonna come through. Right. So when I think about this idea of, like, your mess becomes your message, I almost think of it as, your mess becomes... Our mess hopefully becomes our ministry. And, I I don't necessarily mean that in evangelical way. I just mean that in, like, you know, Jesus talks about, going about and doing good. And and we had a professor in school who said that... Who observed that they felt that documentary film had a unique capacity to, fulfill that charge. And and, so with this particular documentary, I feel like this was an opportunity for us to connect with other human beings and go through a healing experience. So for me, Right in Paradise, more than other things I've made, really just felt like a gift. It was like the fact that it came together, the fact that this subject came into my life, and then I... We introduced, you know, Anna and Brad to each other. And then and then it was like this... Well, what if this was a documentary and Anna was very... But what's the story? And I said, I don't really know, but I feel it coming. You know? Like, it's... There's a subject. We don't have a story, but we have a subject. And then the money came and the... Just things kept moving forward and the momentum came. And and that experience was so powerfully healing for us. And we hope that when you're sitting and watching it and feeling your way through that film, that that's what happens for the audience, you know, that that just extends to people in a in a healing way. So Well... And it's... For those who are not familiar with the story Right. Which most of your audience probably isn't. Yes. I was hoping you'd go there, Anna. Yeah. To give us a little synopsis of what we're talking about. I mean... And it's funny because, you know, you and I met shortly after this had just happened. So Doctor. Paul Jenkins and I met at a business conference and I had just... I almost missed the conference because I had just given birth to our fourth child and he passed away a few hours later and it was via emergency c section. And so I wasn't supposed to be lifting things. I had to have people help me with my bags, but I'd managed to still make it to the conference. I think it was like within a week after that experience. And we had just come off of making our first feature film, The Loved and Lost, which is now released and available, on a lot of platforms. But at the time, you know, we were wrapping up the shooting on that, but we hadn't edited it together yet. And we were still kind of recovering from how difficult that first film was to make and then going through the loss of a child. And I think Kent and I both were not sure if if we even wanted to keep making films, because it was so hard on our family the first time. And then we experienced this loss right after. But I think the documentary was extremely healing. It was a way to turn what we had experienced into something beautiful, honestly. Like, I'm so proud of what it's become, and I'm so grateful that it exists. But we we received a teddy bear from a man named Brad who rides motorcycles and gives teddy bears to people who've lost children. And we were like... About nine months after After we lost we had lost our fourth, child. And what was unique about it was that the package was clearly handwritten, and it was like, okay. This is actually from a human. Like, this doesn't feel like it was from, like, some nonprofit organization or some big thing or, like, the hospital sent us things that were like, oh, condolences. And it was like, okay. That's that's nice. We're in the system. You know? It was like, this is like a random person who somehow... And we didn't know him. We didn't have had... Anne had zero mutual friends with him on social media. Like, it was just bizarre. We couldn't figure out how he knew our names and what had happened to us and, like, sent us this thing. But he had seen a post from Anna on Facebook somehow, and he sent it to us, this teddy bear, and he sent a note about our son, Seth. And he sent a little book that he had written because he's been doing this for quite some time just about some experiences that he had had along the way. And, I just sat down, and I read the book almost in one straight shot and just felt this immediate connection with this person. And that's kind of what kicked us all off was, like, why does he do this? And so his story was in the book a little bit, but we just felt like there's It's something that we could dig into and and him, it's what he does to cope with his own loss. And you see that unfold in the in the documentary kind of his story, how he came to do what he does and why that helps him. And I think that that's kind of the beauty of this. Like, what's your teddy bear? What is your thing that you do that helps you heal and also helps other people? And we interviewed a number of subjects who've gone through horrific tragic losses, of their own in many ways larger scale than ours, but, all of them seem to gravitate towards that need to use that to do good. So that making your mess your message is like, you know, evident in all the characters subjects. They're not really characters, but subjects of the documentary that with time, they find a way to kind of give back and help others, through that experience. You know, as you're sharing this, I'm I'm recalling my own experiences with it. And I think part of the power... And you were touching on this a little bit. This this is our story with your details. Mhmm. Or with the details of the real people, you you switch the word from character to subject that we can just say these are humans whose stories are real. And this is... These are shared human experiences with the particular details of certain individuals. And I think that's the powerful message that I got from Ride in Paradise. I didn't know anything about Brad or what he was doing. I remembered that you had lost a child, and I remember how I felt for you. I'd just barely met you. Yeah. And and I was like, you know, because my human heart and empathy and the children that I've raised and now the grandchildren that are part of my life and, understanding what it feels like to have to have grief or sorrow, but also understanding that there is some healing element. And as we share that with each other, it becomes a more universal experience. It's it's like, okay. I'm not alone in this. And it it was kind of fun in the documentary to see this community, this strange community that just popped out of nowhere because Brad was following his heartfelt calling to reach out to families who had lost a child by giving them a teddy bear. And usually, he delivers it on his motorcycle. I think you got it delivered by, you know, UPS or something. Yeah. Yeah. The exception. You may have been a little out of range of his motorcycle. Yeah. Well... And that's funny because he also... Brad is this person who, like all of us, experiences this constant way... Constant waves of self doubt where it's like, this doesn't make any difference. This doesn't even matter. And like like I said, like, Brad isn't, like, doing 500,000 of these a year. Like No. Because he can't. Because he's one person. And so that's the point of the documentary is, like, we aren't trying to make this into a movement of teddy bear deliveries because that's... That doesn't make any sense. What we are trying to do is make it a movement of of, hopefully, like, empathy, love, and goodwill. Right? If that doesn't sound like, you know, a Christmas message or something. But, like, this but this, like, this feeling that, like, it's as much... And it's, I mean, sometimes inspirational stories, I think, leave us walking away from, like, the theater kind of going, wow. That makes me feel really good knowing there's people that do good stuff like that. And, you know, that was kinda inspirational. But, like, is that really what the word inspirational means? Like, I would hope that this one actually leaves you feeling, like, empowered because the, the original title for the doc, which I think is good that we retitled it, but one of the original titles that we played with was, called, ordinary. We were calling call the movie ordinary, and that was kind of our guiding sort of stake in the story was this idea of, like, we don't wanna sensationalize this at all. Like, it's not sensational. If we make it seem sensational, then people feel like Brad's a sensational person, and I'm not a sensational person, so I can't do anything sensational. You know? But, like, but Brad's actually this remarkably ordinary human being who has, like, a mortgage and a family and a job and a whatever, and he does this thing that almost anyone could do. On the side. If you have a... If you have... You don't have a motorcycle... It's my motorcycle's license. You could do it on a bicycle or in a van or whatever. It's not that big of a deal. Right? Like... And yet there's something so unique about it. It's so Brad, and it's so individual to him, and he ministers and reaches people and touches people's lives so individually, so slowly, so small Lee. You know? Like, it's so ordinary. And so I I really hope that that is more inspirational to me because I look at and go, I could fit that into my schedule. I could fit that into my bandwidth even with a million kids and this, you know, stressful career and everything else. Like, well, if I'm walking by someone, like, what what are the things I could do? I'm not gonna deliver teddy bears, but what is my teddy bear? What is that thing? And for us, the doc, you know, because we're filmmakers. And I can share that story with everyone for the rest of my life. Documentary. And that's our way of, you know, turning something terrible into something healing and good for others and ourselves. Yes. And your mess becomes your message. Mhmm. Brad was doing the same thing. He followed some nudge inside of... I think of these as nudges, right, where we get a little whisper in our ear or in our heart that says, maybe I should do this. And then there's a second nudge that says, no. They're probably gonna be bothered by. They're too busy or whatever. I've been... Just this year, you guys, I've been trying to get better at following nudges. And he felt a nudge. Even though you're outside of his motorcycle range, he's like, it's... I gotta send him a teddy bear. And he can't send a teddy bear to everyone who's lost a child, but for whatever reason, he felt this nudge. You received that, and now now you're taking your human life value, your experience, your skill set to do your version of a teddy bear. And I don't know how many people your film has reached after this episode airs. Hopefully, it's a few more. In fact, I wanna get to that before we wrap up our conversation today because I know you've got a website for your production company. Mhmm. And if I remember correctly, it's invisiblemansion.com. Did I get that right? Yes. You did. And and I know you can watch trailers there and see... You know, connect to the movies that you've already done, Loved and Lost, right in paradise. You've got another one coming out called Our Father, which I'm excited to see as well. I love the work that you guys are doing. What... I I also wanted to mention this, though, too. Because not only are you doing what you do, you're helping other filmmakers to do what they do. You know, I've... I I share a a basic Christian faith system that that I think you guys do as well. And I remember when Jesus said, feed my sheep. It sounded to me like, feed my shepherds. And as you guys are now empowering through what you've learned and going through the difficulties of managing film production with raising little kids and and staying in your faith. You're now helping other filmmakers to do the same thing, creating new possibilities. And what's gonna come from the films that they make, you know, that you can't even... You can't make all the films. Right. Right? Anyway, I'm hitting on a lot of points, you guys, but I just want people to be aware of what you're doing, how they can connect with you. Is there any of those elements that you want to, comment more about or elaborate on that I just mentioned? Yeah. I do appreciate that. I think it fits perfectly with what we're talking about, like your mess becoming your message. The nonprofit arm of our production company is called Film and Family, or, actually, it's it's technically the Film and Family Foundation. And that is where we have a podcast and we help other filmmakers who are trying to enter this industry and be able to participate as filmmakers without sacrificing everything that the industry typically, easily asks people to sacrifice, you know, so you can maintain your values and your family and your personal life, and that stability, and that part of who you are and even put that into what you make. So that that came out of basically what I wish I'd had when we made our first feature film, you know, and all the struggles we face trying to do that with the family and the things we didn't learn at film school. And I don't know that they're necessarily being taught anywhere else that I can find because, you know, it's it's challenging and those who figure it out kind of want to, like, keep that to themselves and maybe not have everybody know how you do it or how you navigate it. I'm not sure. And it also just changes. It's... This is a rapidly changing industry. And so we're... What we're trying to do is find the... Suppose upon which a career can be built, which is so difficult, especially in the arts, especially in an art form as expensive as filmmaking. But the, but we believe it's possible. You know, I I personally really miss... Anna talks about this preservation of values, and I think that's so important. And I think that sometimes people... We get onto that once again, like like, you need to preserve your value so that you can make movies that convince other people to live your values. And I'm like, that's not really... Once again, like, one of our mantras is, like, filmmaking is suited well for connection, but not for conversion. Like, my job isn't to make anyone, like, change the way they think necessarily, but I hope that it helps unify us as human beings. And in that way, that is sort of a change. Right? Like, it changes me to to feel unified to someone who looks totally different from my... The way I do, whether that's physically or their lifestyle or their culture, their language or whatever. And suddenly I go, yeah. But I felt all those things. Like, you talked about empathy. It's like I feel totally bonded to that human being. And then all of a sudden, like, I've broadened my heart. You know? But but how do we make those films if film itself has become a religion? You know? Like, if that's the god we worship, which I think is what's happened in our industry a lot. Mhmm. Then we just get movies about movies, and we get movies about fame, and we get movies about abusing money and fame and being rock stars. I mean, there's so many rock star movies now. And I'm just kinda like... But, like, that actually is kinda hard for me to relate to. Like, I I can connect with some of those movies. Some of them are well done. Some of them are great. You know? But, like, like, how many do we need? You know? It's it's like... And so it's it's tricky. I guess the point being, if we can help people understand that, there's a great story about, a director I do like named Jeff Nichols. He was making his first movie, and he said, I'm gonna make a... He told his dad. He said, I'm gonna make a movie about two feuding families. Like, it's like a turns into, like, a mob movie about two feuding Italian families in New York or whatever. It's like, you know, we've heard of those. And his dad said, why don't you make a a movie instead of a place... Instead of making a movie about a place you don't know very much about that everybody knows a lot about, why don't you make a movie about a place you know a lot about that nobody else knows anything about? And so he changed his first film to two two feuding families in, like, Arkansas. It's, like, the South, and it's, like, just super normal, but yet, like, the drama becomes very heightened. And and he made that movie for, like, $50, and it just... That has cemented his sort of voice in this sort of southern perspective. But he, you know, he's told sci fi movies in Texas, and he's told, you know, historical films in other parts of the South. And he's such an interesting filmmaker. But this idea of, like, why would you abandon those values that make you so unique? You know, like George Miller was a doctor, and he's made an excellent film called Lorenzo's Oil. Not only he could have made He could have made that movie. Of who he is and his understanding of the medical field. Or, I mean, Terrence Malick is, like, philosopher, and he does these very philosophical kinds of films that are very unique to him. And you've got Chris Nolan who's, like, loves math, you know, and he does these scientific mathematical sort of stories. And Yeah. Whether you like those movies or not, like, there's a... There's something valuable inside a person that, like, we wanna try and help people preserve it so that they're not just, like, I don't know, setting everything that makes them them aside so that they can participate in this industry when in reality, like, that's what we need. So... And that's kind of what the title of our production company alludes to, Invisible Mansion Pictures. When I was a teenager, I went and toured the Warner Brothers studio lot. I think it was Warner Brothers. I was out in California with my parents, and they had this whole street of buildings, beautiful looking buildings, but they were all facades. So on the outside, it looks like this whole street full of glittering peep... I don't know. The structures, I guess, is what I'm looking for. But then you open the door and it's just completely empty behind that facade. With an inside. Yeah. And I think a lot of the film industry feels that way where it's like all glittering and gold, but really these people who are making high level movies are often struggling in basic things of their health and their relationships and their getting divorces and their families are falling apart and their personal lives are falling apart. And that's and that's not to criticize anyone who's experienced those things. No. But it's happening on such a wide scale that it's become evident that there's a culture in that industry that is, sort of... It just makes it harder than it needs to be. It's kind of rare to find, you know, people who are succeeding, and they do exist, but people who are succeeding, internally on a personal level while also succeeding in the industry. And so I think for me, like the Invisible Mansion is like, what's inside of you? You know, what's behind that door? Is it just a facade? Or is there actually, you know, something meaningful and deep inside of your personal life? And only you know that, you know? But when I coach filmmakers, we talk a lot about, like, how how are you doing in all these different areas of your life and how you do one thing, how you do everything and kind of a holistic approach. Yeah. It's it's healing the attitudes towards life that so quickly lead us to say, well, I'm gonna abandon x, y, and z essential things for x, y, and z. Them on the altar of film. Unessential things. And, like, film is an unessential thing. Like, we have to acknowledge that as we do it. Like, it can be wonderful, but, like, it is... Art is... It's nonessential. And so that's... I think we can't make art about anything important unless we recognize that. We have to put it in its place. Yes. And so... Anyway. So there's there's some interesting things there. Something else I brought up that I wanna comment on. We're giving you a big long answer to talking about. Free to shut in if we can stop us. Is a, is a phrase that one of my favorite people who's also a filmmaker of great renown said, Hayao Miyazaki talked about in his director statement for a movie called Kiki's Delivery Service. He talked about something they were observing in the eighties in Japan, which was this, like, growing workforce of of young women because there's inequality that was growing back then. Right? That women women were finding more opportunities in the workplace. And he said, well, they're starting to find, economic stability. There's there's there's, you know, there's no more, like, lack of opportunity. And as that started to shift, he said, but we're still seeing people, you know, now they're still, like, living with parents or living... Hopping apartments or switching jobs like crazy. And he said, what's become evident is that, like, temporal stability does not equate to a lack of spiritual poverty. And and so for him, what Kiki's Delivery Service was all about was exploring a young woman who was using something that was deep inside her, which were these witch's powers. Right? This, is sort of sweet, benign witch powers that are just sweet and fun, and she can fly in a broom so she makes a delivery service out of it. And she's able to provide for herself that way. And then suddenly, that sort of spiritual power that she has, is gone, and she can't do it anymore. And so that movie explores this idea of, like, where does it come from? Why does it come? Why does it go? And, like, what does it cost? You know? It's been just that phrase, spiritual poverty. So interesting. Yeah. And so that's kind of what Anne was mentioning, this invisible mansion pictures, this this, spiritual prosperity. Mental, emotional... Yeah. Like, in, you know, all these invisible ways. Maybe more valuable than valuable. Right. Than the fame that we that we so often want. Or maybe if not fame. Yeah. Riches. Well, I think it's easy to get sucked into that, you know, and in the industry, you know, it's even become almost cliche. Oh, that person's a movie star. Right? It's like this symbol of you've got it made, but it's... It can be so superficial if it doesn't have the substance behind it. You know, behind the facade, what's there? And that's something that I've really appreciated about your work and just you as humans is that there is substance there. It's driven by by meaning and values. And we could talk all day about that, I'm sure. Once again, everyone, as you're listening to this, this is Anna and Kent Talman, spelled with a t h, and you can find them at the invisiblemansion.com. Seriously, go check out their work. Amazing things that are happening there. And if if you're like me and you probably are because you're listening to this podcast, you will be touched by some of the things that you encounter there, and it will turn on some lights about what you can do. Follow those nudges. And whether it's in filmmaking or whatever else that you're doing. Anna and Ken, I think you're just fabulous examples of many of the principles that we talk about here, and I so much appreciate you're joining us here today at Live On Purpose Radio. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you so much, Kent. So much for having us. I really enjoyed. We just appreciate, your your thoughtful questions and and everything you're doing as well. You guys, you've heard it. It's time to apply it. Let's go live on purpose. 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