Latest / Math Therapy / Math anxiety, vulnerability, and the secrets to building student confidence w/ Amy Johnston

Transcript

Math anxiety, vulnerability, and the secrets to building student confidence w/ Amy Johnston · Math Therapy

• 0:02
  Amy Johnston: vulnerability is a superpower.
• 0:04
  Amy Johnston: when you weave in your own personal experience to a teaching moment, it can connect and it can deepen.
• 0:13
  Amy Johnston: to be able to soften people's bodies, have a laugh, bring some levity to the moment, actually allows them to learn better.
• 0:23
  Amy Johnston: Math is fundamental to the universe, so everyone has it in you.
• 0:29
  Amy Johnston: use it as an entry point to understand yourself more.
• 0:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guys, oh my God, hello, and welcome to Math Therapy.
• 0:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Welcome to all of our new listeners.
• 0:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm so glad you found this podcast, and so glad you're here.
• 0:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's why this week I'm doing two things.
• 0:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: First, I'm beyond excited for you to hear this week's interview, which was very, very special for me.
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Second, I'm doing another giveaway for the new TI Evo during this episode.
• 0:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: But this time there's a fun little twist.
• 1:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, before I tell you about it, I've got to explain why this episode is so special.
• 1:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're going to hear from one of my best friends, and one of the most incredible therapists I know, Amy Johnston.
• 1:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: As you guys know, I have long been a believer that as educators, we are healers.
• 1:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And in order to heal to the best of our abilities, it helps to learn from other healers in their own trade.
• 1:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, my book and this podcast are called Math Therapy, like therapy.
• 1:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And as we learn, we only grow stronger in being able to heal math trauma and help all students build healthier relationships with math.
• 1:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Amy and I explore how negative early math experiences shape identity and persist into adulthood, and we get into the nuts and bolts of exactly how it happens, and more importantly, what to do about it.
• 1:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Amy is insightful, genuine, and pragmatic, and drops practical strategies for both students and teachers struggling with their own math anxiety inside and outside of the classroom.
• 1:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you're gonna be able to use these strategies right now, even though it's summer, to become a stronger teacher in the fall.
• 2:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're gonna walk away from this episode with a perspective shift and at least one thing that changes the way you see yourself or your students.
• 2:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: And most of all, guys, you're going to walk away feeling more hopeful, I promise.
• 2:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now, for the reason I know at least a few of you are here, don't lie, it's totally fine, I see you, this episode is sponsored by Texas Instruments, which means we are doing another giveaway.
• 2:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so in case you missed it, which, like, I don't know how you could have because the internet is blowing up with this news, TI just dropped their newest calculator, the TI-84 Evo, and people are going gaga goo goo bananas for it.
• 2:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, we're talking Taylor Swift ticket pre-sale level cray, and I am here for it.
• 2:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, there are many reasons to be obsessed, but one of the things people are drooling over is the streamlined keypad, which features, wait for it, a dedicated fraction key.
• 2:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you know, you know.
• 2:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: You heard me, no more shift this or second function that.
• 2:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's all there in its own key.
• 2:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, to celebrate, we are giving away an Oh My Math box, which includes a brand-new TI-84 Evo with a four-year online calculator license, a getting started guide, a calendar, and an absolutely adorable plushie calculator keychain in a mystery color.
• 3:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now for the twist.
• 3:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do you win this epic Oh My Math box?
• 3:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: At some point during my interview with Amy, I'm going to share a code with you, and to enter the giveaway, all you have to do is text the podcast using the link in your app.
• 3:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 3:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's a link that says text us.
• 3:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Use that link, text me the code, and I'll randomly pick a winner by June 26th.
• 3:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And just like that, the new TI-84 Evo is yours.
• 3:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, are we clear?
• 3:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are we ready?
• 3:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are we pumped?
• 3:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know I am, so let's get this show on the road.
• 3:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Amy, welcome to the podcast.
• 3:46
  Amy Johnston: Thank you.
• 3:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Amy is one of my absolute best friends, and my free therapist.
• 3:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because she is...
• 3:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: well, I've asked her to be my therapist a million times, but it is apparently not, you can't be-
• 3:55
  Amy Johnston: 'Cause I wanted to be your friend.
• 3:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right, exactly.
• 3:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you can't therapize your friends for money.
• 4:00
  Amy Johnston: Yes.
• 4:00
  Amy Johnston: Okay.
• 4:01
  Amy Johnston: Correct.
• 4:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: But because I talk to Amy so much about my own trauma and my own problems, I really wanted to have you on, to talk about math trauma in the very skilled way that I hear you help me every day.
• 4:16
  Amy Johnston: Okay.
• 4:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I know I was gonna say how new is the term math trauma, but it's not'cause you hear me talk about it all the time.
• 4:22
  Amy Johnston: I remember when I first met you and checked out your Instagram and saw you, campaigning on the street about it.
• 4:28
  Amy Johnston: I- I was like,"Whoa.
• 4:29
  Amy Johnston: Who's this girl?" And I thought it was wonderful.
• 4:33
  Amy Johnston: And it, I mean, like so many people, even just when I tell them about you, it brought me to my own experiences, so
• 4:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God.
• 4:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell us about your own experiences.
• 4:43
  Amy Johnston: it was just one of, like f- French and math I struggled.
• 4:47
  Amy Johnston: I had to take applied and that all, like, in high school, and that created its own challenge.
• 4:54
  Amy Johnston: Like, I just felt really ashamed of that.
• 4:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 4:58
  Amy Johnston: And I was definitely a drifter.
• 5:03
  Amy Johnston: I couldn't stay in the moment.
• 5:05
  Amy Johnston: The thing that stands out the most is my teacher from high school, his wife had him on a diet.
• 5:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 5:14
  Amy Johnston: And he would give us extra points if we went and got him a Krispy Kreme.
• 5:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my G- What are you saying?
• 5:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Amy, what?
• 5:22
  Amy Johnston: But he was actually so wonderful.
• 5:24
  Amy Johnston: So, like, this created, like, this, like, hilarious dynamic.
• 5:27
  Amy Johnston: And then also, he was very kind.
• 5:29
  Amy Johnston: He would allow us to take the test home on the weekend and do it again, and anything that we got right we would get half the points more.
• 5:39
  Amy Johnston: So-
• 5:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God, he was really ahead of his time
• 5:41
  Amy Johnston: I really took advantage of that.
• 5:42
  Amy Johnston: And, um, He was incredibly open about the fact that, like, it's stressful for people.
• 5:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 5:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: First of all, I'm curious how many Krispy Kremes he would get, like, on a period.
• 5:53
  Amy Johnston: I mean, definitely one from me almost every day.
• 5:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God.
• 5:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like, his d- his, was his wife like,"How is your diet not fucking working?""Like, you're gaining so much weight."
• 6:01
  Amy Johnston: I'm sure.
• 6:02
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 6:03
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 6:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that's, the math is not mathing on that.
• 6:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, I'm...
• 6:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, I wanna back up because I, when he let you take those tests home-
• 6:12
  Amy Johnston: Yeah
• 6:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: did you cheat?
• 6:13
  Amy Johnston: No.
• 6:14
  Amy Johnston: No.
• 6:14
  Amy Johnston: I really wanted to learn, and I also really cared about- my marks.
• 6:19
  Amy Johnston: I went to an arts school.
• 6:19
  Amy Johnston: You had to keep a certain mark to stay in the arts program.
• 6:22
  Amy Johnston: Oh.
• 6:22
  Amy Johnston: So it was, like, high stakes for everyone, the, all my peers.
• 6:26
  Amy Johnston: Um-
• 6:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: What was the mark you needed to keep?
• 6:28
  Amy Johnston: I think a 70.
• 6:29
  Amy Johnston: Okay.
• 6:29
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 6:30
  Amy Johnston: And I mean, I distinctly remember being in my own space at home being able to make more sense of things.
• 6:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is so fascinating because that was 20 years ago?
• 6:45
  Amy Johnston: Yeah, it would've been, like, 2003, two.
• 6:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which is so wild because we were so not doing that then, and it's interesting now.
• 6:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I know you probably aren't familiar with all the things happening in math education, but one of the practices that I'm really trying to encourage and that other educators are trying to encourage is this idea of giving alternate forms of assessment because we, there was a recogni- a recognition that in a classroom setting, in a timed test- you are not performing- Yeah at, you know, you're not performing the way you could be performing.
• 7:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally.
• 7:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 7:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like- Yeah it's like your working memory is often hijacked.
• 7:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, your amygdala is like, wah, whatever.
• 7:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like- Yeah right?
• 7:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause that pressure, um, takes over.
• 7:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's really cool that he was doing that.
• 7:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's also, I kinda want everyone to hear this because sometimes we're like,"Oh, if we give students the chance to retake a test or to take something home or whatever, they're gonna cheat," right?
• 7:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 7:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're gonna j- And it's really nice to just hear from you that you're like,"No." Like, I...
• 7:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, not every student is just trying to, you know, walk their way into a good mark.
• 7:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 7:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Students at the core, like my friend Jamie Mitchell always says, we need to assume positive intent, right?
• 7:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, students want to learn.
• 7:56
  Amy Johnston: I love this.
• 7:57
  Amy Johnston: This is, uh, I'll have to think more on my experience of that.
• 8:01
  Amy Johnston: It, when you were talking it made me think math teachers especially in high school,'cause that's when it kind of gets a little bit more focused, right?
• 8:08
  Amy Johnston: Mm.
• 8:09
  Amy Johnston: I think of them, other than this man, I can't remember his name right now, but I think of them as, like, very archetypically, like their identity seemed quite serious.
• 8:19
  Amy Johnston: Mm.
• 8:19
  Amy Johnston: And I think something about that also would set me off.
• 8:23
  Amy Johnston: I felt intimidated by all of them except for him.
• 8:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wow.
• 8:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 8:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And again, like, I think educators need to hear that.
• 8:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 8:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 8:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: That it's like, it's, I mean, who knows, it, like, hindsight is not always 20/20, but it is in some respects.
• 8:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like, Yeah, I mean, like, I remember all of my teachers being, like, 100 years old.
• 8:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 8:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you know what I mean?
• 8:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 8:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that kinda thing, where it's just like...
• 8:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause you're seeing them in relationship to you, right?
• 8:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: At, at that time.
• 8:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like, whether they are serious or not whether they consider themselves serious or not, there is this whole vibe that precedes the math teacher that I think we ha- as educators have to be aware of.
• 8:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 8:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 8:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's, like, up to us to soften that.
• 9:00
  Amy Johnston: That's interesting.
• 9:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, I wanna kinda go back to you being, like, being in applied in and of itself- set up an entire narrative.
• 9:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Question: Did you choose to go into applied or were you put in there?
• 9:11
  Amy Johnston: I chose.
• 9:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, you chose So you chose to go into applied, and you were saying that that in and of itself created a story in your mind.
• 9:19
  Amy Johnston: Definitely.
• 9:21
  Amy Johnston: Well, you know, hopefully this has changed a little bit, but I think it just made me feel like I was less intelligent- because especially what math and science, I'll say, like is kind of seen as or was seen as.
• 9:32
  Amy Johnston: So that is something-
• 9:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: What were they seen as?
• 9:36
  Amy Johnston: I think probably, the classes that You really needed to have, like, a keen brain, or, like, it was valued more, or, it was harder.
• 9:45
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 9:46
  Amy Johnston: And I thrived in, in arts and, and writing and, and things like that.
• 9:51
  Amy Johnston: And I mean, I went into social work at a time that it was unusual to be an 18-year-old in a social work program.
• 9:58
  Amy Johnston: Um, so it took me probably a decade after school to really appreciate, like, my form of intelligence.
• 10:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: My God, I'm just sitting with this of, like, I say this all the time of it is those, the math courses especially that we associate with intelligence.
• 10:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, even though it's bullshit.
• 10:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, we just, like, made it up.
• 10:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, why- Yeah like, I personally think, like, writing an English essay is the hardest thing on the planet.
• 10:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: But, like, we call it...
• 10:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's, like, part of the arts.
• 10:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, do you know what I mean?
• 10:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: We take it less seriously.
• 10:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's, like, somehow seen as, like, easier'cause it's more subjective.
• 10:33
  Amy Johnston: And, like, we are so focused on calling the people who excel in mathematics the smart ones that even if you're, like, a very gifted writer or artist, right?
• 10:41
  Amy Johnston: Like, how hard is it to, like, create art?
• 10:43
  Amy Johnston: Like, anyways, this idea of hardness and difficulty is interesting.
• 10:48
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 10:49
  Amy Johnston: Well, it, it, as you're saying that, made me think of, like, it trickled into the, my experience with music theory too because it, it was, like, kind of this combination of, like, I suck at all that, and it just I think what you said earlier about, like, the overwhelm, the new, new way of, I guess, approaching this with kids really makes sense.
• 11:12
  Amy Johnston: Like, something about the pressure just made me go offline in my mind.
• 11:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you st- do you still consider yourself someone who's, like, anxious around math now?
• 11:23
  Amy Johnston: yes.
• 11:23
  Amy Johnston: I think-
• 11:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you run your own business.
• 11:25
  Amy Johnston: Yes, I run my own business.
• 11:27
  Amy Johnston: I will say, like, to me, there's a little bit of an intersection of money.
• 11:33
  Amy Johnston: Like, uh, so I think I've noticed, like, tax season is a str- has been historically a stressor for me.
• 11:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone stop right now and go listen to the episode I released a few weeks ago called...
• 11:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: why smart people still feel out of control and what to do about it.
• 11:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just, I...
• 11:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: all I'm gonna say is go- where I literally start the episode having a full mentee be around tax season.
• 11:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 11:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I have an actual meltdown.
• 12:00
  Amy Johnston: Love it.
• 12:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: So this is the perfect...
• 12:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, keep going, though.
• 12:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: So,'cause this is really important, what you're saying.
• 12:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 12:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tax season all of a sudden triggers money, and money is related to numbers, which is related to math.
• 12:11
  Amy Johnston: Yep.
• 12:12
  Amy Johnston: Well, and I think this- People.
• 12:15
  Amy Johnston: I feel like my own leaning towards taking on, let's say, sitting in my discomfort as I'm doing my taxes on my own and really trying to do it without my partner's support or anyone's support, like, it does feel like there's an element of gender as well, that I can only speak to on a personal level, has been, like, my own motivator.
• 12:39
  Amy Johnston: Um, I don't wanna be a woman, an adult woman, who can't take care of that stuff for herself.
• 12:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 12:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, so it's, like, you don't probably even know this, but this is what so much of my research is on.
• 12:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 12:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's, everything you experience is completely validated by research.
• 12:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 12:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just so you know.
• 12:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Beautiful.
• 12:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 12:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: It feels good, right?
• 12:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 12:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: To, like, know that.
• 13:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that's, like, I think that's why it's important to, like, talk about this stuff, because we feel so isolated, like it's, like, some whole weird thing that we can't explain, but it's like this is all validated by research.
• 13:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's a very gendered nature to women feeling this sense of out of control-ness- related to finances, that when we dig down, is often related to a math trauma that took place.
• 13:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's often related to feeling less than in a classroom.
• 13:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: By the way, I went to do a school visit, uh, last week.
• 13:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I went to go visit schools and check out, like, the math therapy vibes in their classrooms, because a lot of these teachers had done math therapy book studies, so they were using the strategies in their classrooms.
• 13:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Went to an AP calculus class, so that is, like, a, you know, students elect to be in those classes.
• 13:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you don't have to take calculus to graduate high school.
• 13:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: There was two girls in the class.
• 13:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: There was two girls and 18 boys.
• 13:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: So even to this day- the gendered nature of math ability persists.
• 13:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: It is not e- there, there's so much research that shows it is not because women or girls are less capable of math.
• 14:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: They self-select out of math when it is no longer necessary because there's a million messages that tell them they don't belong in that classroom.
• 14:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like yeah, I just wanna say, this is such a, such a thing.
• 14:17
  Amy Johnston: It's bringing me to a lot of places in my mind.
• 14:19
  Amy Johnston: It's really-
• 14:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, like where?
• 14:21
  Amy Johnston: I think it's just, like, I- I really, like a big part of my work and self-exploration is, is looking back to those moments.
• 14:31
  Amy Johnston: I think actually this conversation's helping me realize that that teacher had a really softening effect on me.
• 14:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's his name?
• 14:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't remember.
• 14:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: We should find him.
• 14:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wonder if he still teaches there.
• 14:40
  Amy Johnston: Maybe he does.
• 14:41
  Amy Johnston: He was a lovely man.
• 14:42
  Amy Johnston: Um, he was funny and, and light-hearted, and he didn't take himself that seriously, but he was brilliant.
• 14:49
  Amy Johnston: Um, so e- even just thinking about his expression of masculinity, let's say- was really playful.
• 14:54
  Amy Johnston: but yeah, I'm th- it's making me emotional as you're talking, so I know that this is like, I would like to do some exploring of my own history.
• 15:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God.
• 15:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 15:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I love when someone sets me up for a perfect segue, and you've just done it.
• 15:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like this is gonna Wait, wait till you guys see how skilled this is.
• 15:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we're talking about the gendered nature of math here, and what we can also talk about is any time I go to a math conference, especially if I'm in a session, an elementary session, math conferences are mostly attended by elementary educators.
• 15:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not like there aren't high school teachers there.
• 15:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Of course there are.
• 15:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's principals, there's high school teachers, there's coaches.
• 15:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: They are largely elementary.
• 15:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I would say a math conference is 80% women.
• 15:36
  Amy Johnston: That's interesting.
• 15:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 15:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Most of the teachers that are in the room are women because most elementary teachers are women.
• 15:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 15:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: We can probably find a stat on this.
• 15:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Dave, fact-check this for me.
• 15:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: I see.
• 15:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 15:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't even need a fact-check.
• 15:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I know this is true, but I'd like to know what the actual numbers are.
• 15:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 15:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: But most most elementary school teachers are women, but all elementary teachers have to teach math.
• 15:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Now, you don't know this, and maybe some of our listeners don't if you're not an educator, to be an elementary teacher you do not need any math university courses.
• 16:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: To be a high school math teacher, you do need to have taken math at the college university level.
• 16:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay?
• 16:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's not like there aren't women who are high school math teachers, there are, but think about it this way.
• 16:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: All elementary teachers have to teach math.
• 16:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Zero of them need to have taken math post-secondary and 80% of them are women.
• 16:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what we now have now, and then given our conversation, we know that it is very likely to have an experience around math trauma, which we're gonna unpack in a second, to have an experience around math trauma at some point in school or when you're younger.
• 16:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: So now we have these classroom teachers, these elementary teachers, 80% of whom are women, with- anxiety around math that probably in s- in many ways there's a gendered component to it.
• 16:54
  Amy Johnston: Right.
• 16:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they're having to every day get up in front of their classroom and teach math, this subject that they do not feel 100% confident with.
• 17:01
  Amy Johnston: Wow.
• 17:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 17:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: And this is something I did an episode with Heidi Sabnani a couple weeks ago literally about this, called Anxious About Math?
• 17:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: You Might Be the Best Person to Teach It, and we talk about teacher math anxiety.
• 17:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: It is one of the biggest, one of the, the biggest issues in math education, and one of the least talked about issues in math education.
• 17:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm really excited- that we're gonna talk about this now.
• 17:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because we are working really, really hard to prevent math anxiety or to mitigate math anxiety on a student level, but these poor teachers with their own math anxiety are the ones tasked with doing it.
• 17:34
  Amy Johnston: This is amazing.
• 17:35
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 17:35
  Amy Johnston: This is actually helping me understand your work in a really cool way.
• 17:39
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 17:39
  Amy Johnston: I mean-
• 17:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which I love this is all about me at the end of the day.
• 17:43
  Amy Johnston: Well, it's- It's phenomenal.
• 17:43
  Amy Johnston: Okay, so, okay, so maybe I'll take that.
• 17:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, so I wanna really now spend some time talking about how we help teachers, how we help these adults who, because you are, I mean, you don't teach math, but I mean, l- well, now that we're digging through your past history, it's like there could be someone just like you who had this exact experience.
• 18:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, let's imagine it was you who had this experience of, like, in high school, like, you're in applied math, you have this great teacher, but you've already now developed this story about yourself that you're less intelligent than everyone else'cause you have to take applied math.
• 18:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 18:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now you're in an elementary classroom teaching math to these kids, and A, maybe you're not 100% confident with the material, and B, you're petrified that you're like,"Fuck, I don't wanna make these kids anxious about math." Yeah.
• 18:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: So what, how do we help these teachers?
• 18:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you know, what would be like, let's imagine you had a patient, like you had a client or, what do we call them?
• 18:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Clients.
• 18:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, you had a client that was like,"Oh, man, I'm really struggling.
• 18:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know?
• 18:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I really wanna make sure I do the best job for these kids, but I'm anxious around math.
• 18:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know how to get over my own math anxiety- but I also don't wanna traumatize these kids." Like, where, where would we start?
• 18:50
  Amy Johnston: This feels like it ties into something that I support almost every client with, which is to see the moments in your present day that kind of, like, rhyme with your past or is like a, some form of, like, a traumatic recreation, which it sounds like it would be for a lot of these teachers that have to teach something that was overwhelming for themselves, is, like, that's actually a moment of opportunity.
• 19:18
  Amy Johnston: It's like a really- like, sacred moment.
• 19:21
  Amy Johnston: So I would encourage framing entering into, like, that semester or that school year as, like, something deeper is going to happen that year because of the challenge.
• 19:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, I love this.
• 19:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love what you just said about a sacred moment.
• 19:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So right away we're reframing this moment.
• 19:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell me if I've gotten this right.
• 19:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Instead of being like,"Oh, fuck, here I go again-"
• 19:43
  Amy Johnston: Yeah
• 19:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: "The stressful thing I'm just gonna try to get through," instead your energy around it is,"Okay, here I go." Yeah.
• 19:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: "I'm entering a p- a sacred moment of potential healing."
• 19:53
  Amy Johnston: Yes, because I'm hearing there's two things available.
• 19:57
  Amy Johnston: There's their personal journey that's gonna be activated, and there's their opportunity to be a change maker for the kids.
• 20:05
  Amy Johnston: So- I think when it comes to, let's say, interacting with your students, I mean, there's...
• 20:12
  Amy Johnston: This is something that, I think can be really valuable for, for all e- elements of life.
• 20:18
  Amy Johnston: But, like, when you weave in your own personal experience to a teaching moment, it can connect and it can deepen.
• 20:27
  Amy Johnston: So I would suggest, like, maybe saying the quiet part out loud.
• 20:32
  Amy Johnston: Like, right away from f- first day of class or throughout to name your own experience of it being challenging for you, whatever it is, right?
• 20:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: What could that look like?
• 20:43
  Amy Johnston: I th- I mean, it could look like my Krispy Kreme story.
• 20:46
  Amy Johnston: Like, what's a real anecdote?
• 20:48
  Amy Johnston: And you could even try and, like, playfully think beforehand, like,"What was my own personal challenge?" And, like, don't make it too, much.
• 20:57
  Amy Johnston: It could just be, like, that same little callback comes throughout the semester.
• 21:01
  Amy Johnston: but if that...
• 21:02
  Amy Johnston: Again, I think that there's probably...
• 21:03
  Amy Johnston: Like, I would...
• 21:04
  Amy Johnston: If I was supporting a teacher, I would bring it into, like, what's going on for them as they enter into that lesson, and what are they noticing, let's say, like, on a body or thought level.
• 21:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, guys, I am so sorry to pause this amazing convo, but I have a very good reason because I am here with your top secret code for the TIO My Math Box giveaway.
• 21:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, the code is ILoveFractions.
• 21:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: All you have to do is click the link that says Send Us a Text in the show notes of whatever app you're listening to this episode in.
• 21:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Send the words ILoveFractions, and you'll be automatically entered into our giveaway.
• 21:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, let's get back to the ep.
• 21:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: First of all, I love this because I talk about this all the time, the idea of vulnerability as a superpower as a leader.
• 21:52
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 21:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: And as a teacher you are a leader.
• 21:54
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 21:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, and I think a lot of teachers have been taught that, like, they need to pretend that they feel, like, amazing about math and they can't possibly speak of their anxiety'cause it's gonna, like, be contagious or something.
• 22:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: And that causes its own pressure of, like, now not only are you, like, stressed about this thing, but you've gotta pretend you're not stressed.
• 22:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Which we all know how that goes, right?
• 22:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that doesn't feel good.
• 22:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, let's back off of, like, a teacher being like,"Okay, when I go into the classroom, like, I'm just so petrified I'm gonna make a mistake on the board, or a student's gonna ask me a question I don't know an answer to, and I start, like, freaking out."
• 22:28
  Amy Johnston: Well, okay, so, you know, a strategy, like, just- You could think of it as, like, you're narrating that moment.
• 22:37
  Amy Johnston: Like, let's say if that moment was muted, and it was in a scene in a movie, and a narrator was speaking over top, like, what would the narrator say about the teacher's experience to help the audience understand?
• 22:50
  Amy Johnston: And then just, like, bring that out of yourself and tell your students.
• 22:53
  Amy Johnston: Pause yourself, say like,"Wow, I'm really noticing I'm stressed right now.
• 22:57
  Amy Johnston: This is reminding me of my past," or,"Hey, does anyone notice, like, this is...
• 23:01
  Amy Johnston: I'm fumbling here." And that could be, like, actually the more powerful moment of the, of the lesson for the kids and for themselves.
• 23:12
  Amy Johnston: what do you think of this?
• 23:13
  Amy Johnston: I'm obsessed.
• 23:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm...
• 23:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: What I'm thinking is I'm so pissed we're not, like, I can't post this clip on Instagram'cause we don't have any video.
• 23:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I'm also like, this actually sounds like such a fun rom-com strategy.
• 23:25
  Amy Johnston: I love narration.
• 23:26
  Amy Johnston: I think I do it for me.
• 23:27
  Amy Johnston: Like, when I feel distressed, like even yesterday I was driving to come visit you.
• 23:32
  Amy Johnston: I wasn't in my own car.
• 23:33
  Amy Johnston: It was, like, a little bit much for me to be, like, h- all this kind of shenanigans that happened on my day.
• 23:39
  Amy Johnston: And I was like,"Oh, I feel uncomfortable." And so I just started, like, if this was being narrated, it would be, like, it would refer to, like, my challenging week.
• 23:48
  Amy Johnston: It would, like, maybe call back to, like, what I've been going through this year.
• 23:52
  Amy Johnston: it ma- you could even say, like, what previous scenes of your life, if it was a movie, would need to be, like, flashed and shown for the viewer to understand the moment you're in.
• 24:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I am obsessed with this.
• 24:04
  Amy Johnston: How how have we not woven this into our own personal therapy?
• 24:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know.
• 24:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like...
• 24:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: 'Cause I'm, like, right now thinking about a lot of situations- where I'm like,"Oh my God, I should..." Like, our music industry stuff, it would be so great to be like,"Okay, this moment is triggering you with this band.
• 24:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Flashback to this scene when we got totally screwed up." Like, first of all, it's making it a lot more fun.
• 24:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 24:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I'm seeing it as a comic strip.
• 24:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you know what I mean?
• 24:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, where you could, like, cut and paste scenes.
• 24:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: What I'm also honestly, Amy, thinking is this would be such a cool activity to do with students.
• 24:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Totally.
• 24:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, make a comic strip that led up to the current way you feel in math class right now.
• 24:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love that.
• 24:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, this is so fun.
• 24:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But because this is about te- the teacher, and I wanna stick with the teacher'cause they don't get the attention, I really like this idea of pausing, creating that little comic strip just to, first of all, get some perspective.
• 24:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because I think a lot of teachers are also like,"What the fuck is wrong with me?" Like,"Why can't I just get it together and teach this lesson?" And it's like, well, hold on.
• 24:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you were gonna narrate this moment like, the viewer would be like,"Of course, this isn't about getting it together.
• 25:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, all of these things have led up to this moment.
• 25:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: This moment isn't in isolation." And what I also love the most, the most, the most is the idea of then narrating it to the student to contextualize the experience because not only are you helping, are you humanizing the moment for the student, who probably feels the fucking same way but you're also taking the pressure off of you to be perfect.
• 25:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 25:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: So it's like, now you and the students are all on the same page.
• 25:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you can be like,"Okay, guys, yeah, I'm fumbling because, oh my God, let me tell you guys this story about this teacher and how I was put into applied," and other students will be like,"Oh my God, I feel the same way."
• 25:35
  Amy Johnston: Love this, and I think this is where your work is so powerful to that field because I think what we can know is, like, to be able to soften people's bodies, have a laugh, like bring some levity to the moment, actually allows them to learn better.
• 25:57
  Amy Johnston: So it, and it's not like the f- I don't know, you can tell me if I'm understanding this, but it's not like the field of math needs to, like, really buckle down on the practicalities.
• 26:06
  Amy Johnston: Like that's, you got that.
• 26:08
  Amy Johnston: That's, you know, that's set.
• 26:10
  Amy Johnston: But what needs to happen to, like, bring it to more people is to humanize it and so it's like almost like this paradigm shift of, like, that is, let's front-load the lesson with that to make sure every lesson has that so that the rest can kind of flow.
• 26:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can w- how do we get you in a school today?
• 26:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, get into a school.
• 26:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, we should, like, go on tour together.
• 26:33
  Amy Johnston: Good, totally.
• 26:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: How much fun would we have?
• 26:35
  Amy Johnston: Love this moment for us.
• 26:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, because, like, we could even just...
• 26:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so anyway, so let's get back to- So we're narrating the experience.
• 26:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Strategy number one-narrate.
• 26:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Narrate, be vulnerable, front-load with a narration.
• 26:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Bring, you know, like make your experience visible for the audience.
• 26:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 26:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Great.
• 26:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: What else can we do?
• 26:55
  Amy Johnston: I mean, as we're talking about this, I feel like we're kind of toggling between m- the teachers are landing a little deeper in my heart because it's like probably they're always getting suggestions on how to improve, but what I'm hearing is actually they're going through a moment of their own activation.
• 27:15
  Amy Johnston: So I'm just like, I, you know, I think something that came to mind that feels like it's more for the students is to...
• 27:23
  Amy Johnston: This came up actually when I used to work with medical doctors, and it was, like, this idea of, naming directly that the doctor, because of the system we're in, the doctor has to be the gatekeeper to some of your health journey.
• 27:35
  Amy Johnston: They need to sign off on things et cetera.
• 27:37
  Amy Johnston: This was particularly when I was supporting people that, for gender confirmation surgery.
• 27:41
  Amy Johnston: It's like here we are in this system that exists this way.
• 27:44
  Amy Johnston: I have knowledge that, and I need to say yes to the things in order for you to feel like you can move on and and have the things in your life.
• 27:51
  Amy Johnston: So in math it's like in order for you to feel like you...
• 27:55
  Amy Johnston: 'Cause math is so woven into, like, our personhood, you, for me and my taxes, it's like it's a thing you need.
• 28:01
  Amy Johnston: I think just naming the word gatekeeper, maybe deconstructing that for younger kids, but, like, I know that this is, I'm the person now that is having to give you this information.
• 28:14
  Amy Johnston: But, like, hopefully em- empowering kids to learn it in other ways.
• 28:18
  Amy Johnston: Is this making sense?
• 28:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: W- this is, like, so deep.
• 28:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I'm really...
• 28:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've just said so many things that I'm like,"Oh my God." Like, I think you've touched on, like, 30 things I wanna talk about.
• 28:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I really do wanna...
• 28:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wanna dig a bit deeper into this gatekeeper idea.
• 28:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you...
• 28:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Tell me if I'm understanding.
• 28:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you saying that, like, it is useful for the educator, like, the, the comparison to the doctor is, like, the educator has to be the one to be like,"I'm signing off on the fact that you passed." Like, that you know this concept.
• 28:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Also them being like they also had a gatekeeper, many gatekeepers in their life who had to sign off.
• 28:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like the reason that teacher might not feel competent or confident is because they didn't get the sign-off they needed from somebody in their lives, but now they're playing this role for somebody else.
• 29:05
  Amy Johnston: Right.
• 29:06
  Amy Johnston: And just, again, it's like shine a flashlight on that and name it.
• 29:10
  Amy Johnston: Of course, we have to continue'cause we're all in this system.
• 29:14
  Amy Johnston: So y- the teacher does need to give you the pass or fail, but if the teacher can acknowledge...
• 29:19
  Amy Johnston: Like, I do this sometimes with my clients where it's like, you know, I think it can be really destructive for people to not think that a therapist or a doctor has their own challenges.
• 29:28
  Amy Johnston: So I'm not gonna spend the time sharing that, but I might say and name, like,"Here in this moment, there's, like, a, a power difference.
• 29:37
  Amy Johnston: But this isn't the only place where you can explore this part of your identity." And, you know, like, use this.
• 29:43
  Amy Johnston: You're in the driver's seat of your life.
• 29:46
  Amy Johnston: You...
• 29:46
  Amy Johnston: If I didn't have that teacher that gave me that opportunity to do my tests at home, I might have an even more challenging time sitting down with my taxes now.
• 29:55
  Amy Johnston: But, like, thankfully, I had a gatekeeper in that grade 11 or whatever it was that softened the experience.
• 30:02
  Amy Johnston: So I think, yeah, I don't know, like, I feel like I'm going a little bit meta with this,
• 30:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: but- I love it though Because I do, I do see the connection.
• 30:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: I actually think, in a way, it's like, uh, like re-parenting almost in a way.
• 30:16
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 30:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 30:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, for the teacher to be like,"Okay, I didn't have this-but I acknowledge that it played a role in how I feel about math." Right.
• 30:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can now play this role in my students' lives of being like"Yeah, fine.
• 30:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, we are in this system." And I talk about this all the time, of how hard it is to do this work within the confines of the system,'cause you do have to pass-fail the t- You have to give them a grade.
• 30:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have to whatever.
• 30:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But there are these windows and these moments, just like you had with Krispy Kreme teacher, I guess we're just calling him that- um, where it's like he softened it a bit.
• 30:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 30:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you still remember that, and I think this is so important for teachers to hear, is like y- your students are going to remember these moments.
• 30:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 30:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like it could always be worse, and you're going to make it better, even if it's not the ultimate, you know, maybe they don't all get 100%, and they don't all get As, but they're still gonna remember these little moments.
• 31:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 31:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's going to soften the trauma, it's gonna soften the anxiety, it's going to be a potentially corrective experience.
• 31:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: So to get up in front of students and be like,"Hey, guys, I get that this can be kind of rough." Like, you know what I mean?
• 31:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, yes, like, there are grades, there are assessments, there are things you have to learn, but I see you.
• 31:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Mm.
• 31:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: And this is part of the work I do too, of being like, what opportunities can you find to show students, and yourself as the teacher, that you are doing math in so many empowered ways that you have an, a unique take on?
• 31:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 31:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, math does not just exist in the classroom.
• 31:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not just in the textbook.
• 31:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's ju- not just on the paper.
• 31:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: So when we can acknowledge that for our students and in ourselves, it can just be empowering and release the holds of that gatekeeping, I think, a bit.
• 31:45
  Amy Johnston: I love it.
• 31:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love Okay.
• 31:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love it.
• 31:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: So now we have a teacher at the front of the room.
• 31:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're doing the narration.
• 31:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: They're like,"Okay, this is sick.
• 31:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like, you know, my vulnerability is actually helping me, like, enter this moment a little more safely." They're reliving their own gatekeeping experiences- and redoing it for their students.
• 32:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now one of the m- one of the things that can help teachers feel less anxious, and help all of us feel less anxious, is knowledge, right?
• 32:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Knowledge is power.
• 32:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: And they're like,"Oh, man." There's a lot of teachers who are like,"Fuck." Like,"This, every time I get to this fractions lesson," or they have this opportunity to teach another grade, and they're like,"No, I ca- I can't.
• 32:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't.
• 32:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've gotta stick with this grade." And now they're thinking,"I don't know.
• 32:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe I do wanna learn some of this content that always, like, made, gave me the ick.
• 32:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I wanna, like-" And there are lots of incredible educators out there doing the work of reteaching mathematics in a more empowered way.
• 32:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do we get them to take that opportunity, even though they're like,"Oh, the last thing I wanna do is learn more math.
• 32:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm scared I'm not gonna learn it"?
• 32:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like- Yeah how do we step into that?
• 32:41
  Amy Johnston: This is, again, I think touching on something that I, personally, I feel like it would be, like, my biggest thing, I w- if I had, like, a microphone to the whole world, I would try to-
• 32:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: You do, kind of, right now, actually.
• 32:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what the internet is for.
• 32:56
  Amy Johnston: Like, I think challenge is the moment of opportunity.
• 32:59
  Amy Johnston: Challenge is sacred.
• 33:00
  Amy Johnston: So I, I'm thinking about this family that, and several families that I've supported, but one in particular where we talked about how the mom really faced a lot more intergenerational trauma than her daughters.
• 33:13
  Amy Johnston: So if you think of, like, the teacher, and the, you know, who were those teachers' teachers, you're, you had it worse in a way.
• 33:21
  Amy Johnston: Like, s- this was not being talked about.
• 33:23
  Amy Johnston: And so part of what I'm thinking in this moment is, like, this analogy of, like, a snowball rolling down a hill, and the teacher is, like, stopping it so that the next generation doesn't get blown over by the avalanche.
• 33:38
  Amy Johnston: That pressure in your body of holding it back, like, holding back the history, like,"I'm gonna kind of digest this moment rather than recycle it and have it happen to the younger people" is, like, s- so brave and truly, like, how we evolve as a collective.
• 33:56
  Amy Johnston: So I think it's part of, like, it, it's a person by person, if we can actually see these moments where we're triggered as, again, the moment of opportunity to digest what wasn't before us digested.
• 34:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, the snowball has sent me.
• 34:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's the moment.
• 34:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're right.
• 34:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're holding up the ball rolling down the hill, and I just, I really love this framing.
• 34:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just wanna pause.
• 34:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, this is the quote,"The challenge is the opportunity." It is a sacred opportunity for a corrective experience.
• 34:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 34:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And also, I'm just like, how, you know, we have spent so much work trying to impart that message down onto students of being like,"Productive struggle.
• 34:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, the struggle is the thing.
• 34:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, it's process." Like, but you just The way you said that the challenge, it's not that that's the good thing or it's a learning moment, it's the opportunity.
• 34:47
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 34:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And for teachers, it's the opportunity to stop that snowball rolling down the hill.
• 34:51
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 34:52
  Amy Johnston: And it's And, and by doing that, you are evolving your own personal life, which I think is, like, so important for teachers bec- I mean, you know this way more than me, but, like, that's a form of deconstructing this, like, the devaluing of that role is, like, for us to even be naming this right now and saying, like,"This is a massive service that you're doing, and it's not just for the kids and for society.
• 35:20
  Amy Johnston: It's also It's making me think of I'm on a big Carl Jung kick, you know?
• 35:24
  Amy Johnston: But I'm learning about he, he believed that the first half of life is in the external world.
• 35:31
  Amy Johnston: So the kids are in their external world part of their life, and it's about tending to that so they can have these ex- these experiences that then they, after 40, they go inward with it.
• 35:42
  Amy Johnston: So the teachers are having a, their inward experience in the classroom.
• 35:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: What?
• 35:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, what?
• 35:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Say more about this.
• 35:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like-
• 35:48
  Amy Johnston: It's like the content from their past is being activated in that moment.
• 35:53
  Amy Johnston: So I think, like, this, this summary is kind of the same recycled statement here of just, like, when you're triggered in the classroom because as a kid you had your own stress, seeing that as, like, a log on the fire internally to burn something that, like, is about your own life path.
• 36:12
  Amy Johnston: Like, if every person had their own personal mythology, trying to understand, like, what math and your own history...
• 36:19
  Amy Johnston: Let's say you're, like, you went into teaching because you really love music, but, oh, no, here I go, have to go into this math class for this semester.
• 36:26
  Amy Johnston: Like, what was it about your...
• 36:28
  Amy Johnston: What was happening in your childhood around the time when your particular math anxiety or trauma started?
• 36:35
  Amy Johnston: And so, like, perhaps pa- at the end of the math class that day, taking a moment to think of, like, how is this transforming my inner experience?
• 36:44
  Amy Johnston: Does it make sense?
• 36:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: It totally does.
• 36:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's, it's, it's deep but it makes sense, right?
• 36:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's Okay, so again, let me try to- Let's see if I understand it, actually.
• 36:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: To me, it's like creating a more holistic thread.
• 36:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Instead of looking at a math experience in isolation, to look at a math experience a- as part of your personhood.
• 37:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm hearing you kind of be like you're in the math class now, present day- and things are coming up.
• 37:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Things are maybe being triggered.
• 37:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're having some things come up.
• 37:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're maybe repairing them in the moment.
• 37:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're maybe being vulnerable with your students.
• 37:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: And to take a minute to be like,"Back when I was 10 years old and having this math experience that gave me the ick, what else was going on for me as a human being?
• 37:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was making new friends.
• 37:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was at a new school.
• 37:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: My parents were fighting at home.
• 37:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I was, like, insecure about, like, I don't know, my new bangs or whatever." And now, like, just to be like that, that math experience in grade two was a piece of an entire person, and now looking at the person I am now, how does this new math experience tie in?
• 37:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, now I'm confused.
• 37:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I right?
• 37:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: Kinda?
• 37:50
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 37:51
  Amy Johnston: I think if we could boil it down to like-
• 37:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, let's boil it down.
• 37:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I went off.
• 37:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I lost myself.
• 37:55
  Amy Johnston: I, I took us there.
• 37:56
  Amy Johnston: But, like, I'm seeing, like, I'm trying to think of, like, a teacher and, and how much they have on their plate, and probably it's a big ask to make this a meaningful moment.
• 38:09
  Amy Johnston: But if it is intersecting with your own wounding, to carve any kind of moment that feels like it's stepping inside of yourself rather than having it be only living in the external world.
• 38:27
  Amy Johnston: The kids are in their external.
• 38:29
  Amy Johnston: You're gonna use your words and speak and share stories and help them with their behaviors and their learning.
• 38:37
  Amy Johnston: Something is simultaneously happening to the teachers, and that could look like a hand on your heart, or it could look like maybe taking some time to talk to someone who gets it before the semester starts, and that's all it is.
• 38:49
  Amy Johnston: Could be like if you really wanted to have this fuel your personal development, it could be like some kind of ritualized experience pre and post class or pre and post semester.
• 39:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think we have to look at our math experiences not in isolation, but as a part of our growth as human beings.
• 39:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: So whatever happened back then, like using air quotes was a part of our growth as a human being, and now we are in the classroom however many years later.
• 39:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: And to realize that our responsibility is not just, like, at all costs you're just serving the kids.
• 39:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's I mean, I think it's the classic thing about teachers.
• 39:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, as we teach, we say this about just math, the best way to learn something yourself is to teach it to someone else.
• 39:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: And maybe we can translate that to the best way to learn yourself, to- to unlearn and relearn your story of yourself as a mathematician or a doer of math, is to teach that to someone else.
• 39:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: So in a teaching and providing this beautiful experience for students, you're also providing that experience for yourself, and we need to take a moment and honor that.
• 39:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Does that sort of make sense?
• 39:55
  Amy Johnston: Absolutely.
• 39:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think it is that adage of, like, we don't think about it this way, but if we- if a student was like,"What's the best way to relearn this material for an exam?" We'd be like,"Go teach it to someone else." And the best way for you to- to rewrite your story as a learner and- and doer of math is to teach a new story to someone else as well.
• 40:14
  Amy Johnston: Beautiful.
• 40:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And, like, I always say, like, I think we're talking about this in different words but in the same way, like my big thing is celebration.
• 40:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like if you have a single moment where you're like,"Oh, that wasn't so bad," or,"Oh, I did this thing I didn't think," or,"I made a mistake on the board and I didn't have a meltdown," like pop a fucking confetti cannon.
• 40:30
  Amy Johnston: Right.
• 40:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that is a moment like h- like you said, hand on heart.
• 40:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, that's a moment to be like,"Holy shit," like,"look what I just did." Don't just run by that moment.
• 40:41
  Amy Johnston: What's, like, the common thread between the teachers that you meet?
• 40:44
  Amy Johnston: Like, what, uh, picturing them listening to this, like, is there something we've missed?
• 40:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, if you're listening to this right now, I, we want you to text the podcast.
• 40:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 40:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, is there some- so Amy is one of my absolute best friends in the world, so we can have her back on any time.
• 40:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So if you have questions about this, tell us.
• 41:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there something we missed?
• 41:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there something you wanna hear?
• 41:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is there something you'd like to ask her about?
• 41:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Is Like, please text us.
• 41:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can find the link in your show notes.
• 41:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: So do that, And then I will say to you- There's, you know, when I talk about math trauma, which is, is literally defined as a negative experience with math that sticks with you- long after it's over.
• 41:20
  Amy Johnston: Right.
• 41:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 41:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, I like how you said it earlier, like a distressing event that has stuck with you.
• 41:24
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 41:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: There are so many types, right?
• 41:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: That can take shape in the way it did with you, somebody g- get, you know, being in an applied math class.
• 41:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: It can be being bullied, it can be being yelled at, it could be just feeling like you're being compared to everyone in the room.
• 41:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: It could be com- being compared to a friend or a sibling.
• 41:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: It could be an undiagnosed learning difference.
• 41:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: When I talk to teachers,'cause I do this work with teachers, they will cite a lot of these things, right?
• 41:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: They'll say,"Oh, my God," and then,"There was this teacher who made me feel so stupid." A lot of it comes from other teachers, it comes from parents, it comes from the peers.
• 41:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, there are a lot of ways in which you can have a distressing experience in mathematics that sticks with you, especially if that thing is repeated.
• 41:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 41:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, over and over again happens.
• 42:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: and the way that manifests in the classroom is, being really scared and anxious and going, you know, f- going into fight, flight, freeze when you're about to teach a lesson.
• 42:09
  Amy Johnston: Right.
• 42:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Another big way it happens is we have all these beautiful new instructional practices, right?
• 42:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like for example, your Krispy Kreme teacher sending that test home.
• 42:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: We have all of these practices we're trying to encourage now.
• 42:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, giving students multiple way- times to read, write a test, or teaching math in a different way, and a lot of teachers are just too scared to try it because they're like,"But what if...
• 42:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: like, I understand this one way of teaching math.""I'm gonna stick to it, because if I try this other way, it's gonna threaten the entire foundation of which I stand," right?
• 42:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, like-
• 42:38
  Amy Johnston: The, the foundation-
• 42:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Of being like,"I understand this.
• 42:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm too scared to try to teach math in a different way or teach fractions by this different method,'cause what if I don't get it?
• 42:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: What if a student asks a question I don't understand?"
• 42:49
  Amy Johnston: Right.
• 42:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: "At least if I just stick to the script and the way I've been taught to teach it I don't have to feel those feelings." So I think you've touched on this beautiful thing of- the feeling of those feelings- that challenge is the opportunity.
• 43:02
  Amy Johnston: Like, if they fumbled, and if they were able to say, like,"Oops, didn't do that right" or,"I have to, you know, go back to the drawing board on this lesson," that's actually the bigger takeaway.
• 43:15
  Amy Johnston: Could be a bigger takeaway.
• 43:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Could be the bigger takeaway.
• 43:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: And again, I was in a classroom a couple weeks ago that I watched a teacher make a mistake.
• 43:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: We were doing some factoring, and he made a mistake.
• 43:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: We were all, we all saw the mistake, and students were like,"Hold on.
• 43:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Isn't that number supposed to be-7?" And he was like,"What?
• 43:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: What?" And then he clued in and was like,"Oh.
• 43:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my gosh.
• 43:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oops.
• 43:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, it totally was.
• 43:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Good catch."
• 43:33
  Amy Johnston: Nice.
• 43:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I was like,"What a beautiful moment."
• 43:35
  Amy Johnston: Yes.
• 43:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 43:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, in those moments, but again, if you are carrying your own math trauma and you have an insecurity around math, that moment is so threatening,'cause you're like,"They're gonna find out I'm an imposter."
• 43:46
  Amy Johnston: Ugh, it's like an unmasking of, like, so many people in society right now.
• 43:52
  Amy Johnston: That is, the...
• 43:53
  Amy Johnston: I love hearing this.
• 43:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, what, pause.
• 43:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry, you can't just make a statement like that.
• 43:56
  Amy Johnston: Well, it's just like the, it's like this, what you've been talking about around- the vulnerability is a superpower.
• 44:02
  Amy Johnston: And this is so interesting, right?
• 44:03
  Amy Johnston: Like, you can, it lands as c- more confident-
• 44:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: 100%
• 44:08
  Amy Johnston: we were talking about this yesterday.
• 44:09
  Amy Johnston: Lands as more confident when you can name your vulnerability.
• 44:14
  Amy Johnston: Or, like, ooh, like again, narrate or bring out the truth of what's happening in the inner world of like,"Oh, wait.
• 44:20
  Amy Johnston: I didn't, I didn't get this right." That's a way to be a bigger...
• 44:24
  Amy Johnston: And again, like, it does bring me to the patriarchy'cause I'm like, this is deconstructing.
• 44:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 44:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: At the end of the day, it all comes back to it.
• 44:30
  Amy Johnston: It real- it really, really does.
• 44:32
  Amy Johnston: So teachers are amazing.
• 44:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sorry,
• 44:35
  Amy Johnston: can you just finish the patriarchy thought, though?
• 44:37
  Amy Johnston: Well, uh, one of my favorite sayings comes from one of my favorite decks of cards, that is like,"Don't be the coconut, hard on the outside with mushy inside.
• 44:46
  Amy Johnston: Be the avocado, strong at the core and yielding outside." I always wanted to get a c- avocado tattoo.
• 44:53
  Amy Johnston: But-
• 44:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God
• 44:54
  Amy Johnston: so I think of the patriarchy as the h- the avocado.
• 44:57
  Amy Johnston: It's like, what is going on inside of the, like, the mush of it all?
• 45:01
  Amy Johnston: It's like-
• 45:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, no, the patriarchy's the coconut
• 45:03
  Amy Johnston: sorry, the coconut.
• 45:03
  Amy Johnston: Yeah.
• 45:04
  Amy Johnston: The coconut.
• 45:05
  Amy Johnston: And so I don't know.
• 45:07
  Amy Johnston: That's, that's where my mind goes with that.
• 45:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I th- I think that's it.
• 45:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't think anything else needs to be said.
• 45:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think, that's it.
• 45:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Be the avocado.
• 45:14
  Amy Johnston: Be the avocado.
• 45:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Be the fucking avocado.
• 45:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Everyone loves avocado.
• 45:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 45:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's very trendy these days.
• 45:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: Be the avocado.
• 45:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: What a beautiful...
• 45:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I could talk to you forever.
• 45:24
  Amy Johnston: I know.
• 45:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think this is such a, a perfect way to wrap up, and I mean, I am thinking so many things, and I'm really excited for people to hear this.
• 45:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because you've given us some actual strategies teachers can use right now.
• 45:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've given us some strategies that leaders and coaches can use with the teachers they help.
• 45:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, these are really practical.
• 45:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I just, I just think it's gonna be, it...
• 45:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, I just think that's it.
• 45:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: The challenge is the opportunity.
• 45:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: You know, your anxiety and past traumas are, are yielding to a sacred moment that is happening for you right now.
• 45:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I think that reframing of instead of going into it with the energy of avoidance and resistance is the opening of being like,"All right, I'm in.
• 46:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm, I'm surrendering to this sacred moment.
• 46:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's see what opportunity it presents," and that's all you have to do.
• 46:09
  Amy Johnston: Beautiful.
• 46:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Ugh.
• 46:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 46:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: We are wrapping up with the final two questions I ask everyone.
• 46:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 46:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: You've got 30 seconds.
• 46:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's...
• 46:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not a timed test.
• 46:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have as long as you want- but, like, you don't have to...
• 46:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Question number one is if there's one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?
• 46:24
  Amy Johnston: Oh, my.
• 46:25
  Amy Johnston: One thing I could change.
• 46:28
  Amy Johnston: I, I mean, this is probably some- pe- people say this probably a lot, but, like, make it practical.
• 46:34
  Amy Johnston: How the hell will I be using this?
• 46:36
  Amy Johnston: That's why I checked out.
• 46:37
  Amy Johnston: I was like,"This is not my path." But I sit down to do my taxes every year and it stresses me out.
• 46:42
  Amy Johnston: So yes, that.
• 46:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, we could...
• 46:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't know why we're not teaching people how to do their fucking taxes.
• 46:47
  Amy Johnston: Yeah, or save, or, like, what are the, like, co- like, we just renewed our mortgage.
• 46:51
  Amy Johnston: Like, that was a full lesson.
• 46:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I still don't get my mortgage.
• 46:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I- I still don't even know what the fuck's going on.
• 46:54
  Amy Johnston: I know.
• 46:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Fuck.
• 46:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 46:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 46:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love it.
• 46:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Make it practical.
• 46:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right, number two, if someone listened to this whole thing and they were like,"Yeah, I get it.
• 47:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: I get what she's saying.
• 47:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: but I...
• 47:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly, I just think I'm not a math person," what would you say?
• 47:07
  Amy Johnston: Oh, wow.
• 47:08
  Amy Johnston: I would say that math is fundamental to the universe, so everyone has it in you.
• 47:15
  Amy Johnston: And use it as an entry point to understand yourself more.
• 47:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: What a beautiful way to put it.
• 47:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's so nice.
• 47:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love you so much.
• 47:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love you so much.
• 47:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, and that's a wrap.
• 47:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's it.
• 47:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's all she wrote.
• 47:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I...
• 47:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 47:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guys, I really want you to text the podcast.
• 47:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I feel like I'm gonna leave this and I'm gonna have a million things I wish I'd asked.
• 47:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: So we wanna hear from you.
• 47:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: You have Amy...
• 47:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: I was gonna say you have Amy at your beck and call.
• 47:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's actually not true.
• 47:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: Um, but I could probably convince her to be back on the pod.
• 47:43
  Amy Johnston: Definitely.
• 47:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Send us your questions.
• 47:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, is Amy not the most amazing?
• 47:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm sorry, guys, she's my best friend.
• 47:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can't have her.
• 47:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: but you can learn more about the amazing Amy Johnston by heading to the show notes and finding out more.
• 47:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: We've got links in there.
• 47:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: We've got some info about her.
• 48:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: And guys, I just wanna say thank you so much for being here.
• 48:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you for listening past the TI giveaway, which I know a lot of you came here for.
• 48:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I know you probably could not stop listening to this episode because Amy dropped so much knowledge, and I would love to know what your takeaways are.
• 48:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: So feel free to hit that Text Us button again, and let me know what your biggest takeaway from this episode was.
• 48:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did it change your perspective on something?
• 48:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did it give you a little bit of healing?
• 48:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: And did it give you a little impetus to try something new this summer?
• 48:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: All right.
• 48:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Next week, I will be here, same time, same place, same channel.
• 48:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: In the meantime, you can join our Facebook group.
• 48:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're almost at 500 members.
• 48:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just head to Facebook, type in Math Therapy, click Join, and you'll be let in.
• 48:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's an amazing community of people supporting one another.
• 48:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: You can find me on Instagram@themathguru.
• 48:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you should know that this episode was produced by the one and only David Kochberg, and while I was recording the intro and outro, there were construction noises the entire time, so if you can't hear them, that's because David is awesome.
• 49:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I should also tell you that the music you're listening to right now is by our band.
• 49:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: Me and David have a band.
• 49:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's called Goodnight Sunrise, so look us up, stream us.
• 49:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe it's, like, your new summer soundtrack.
• 49:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 49:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: Love you guys.
• 49:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're amazing.
• 49:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're awesome.
• 49:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you for all the work you do.
• 49:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are making a difference, and thank you for listening to this during the summer months.
• 49:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: It just shows how dedicated you are to doing the work because you are a teacher through and through.
• 49:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are a healer through and through, and I just think you're the best.