Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / CAN BEE POLLEN SOLVE GIRL-IN-SUITCASE MYSTERY?

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CAN BEE POLLEN SOLVE GIRL-IN-SUITCASE MYSTERY? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: A man out cutting grass comes upon a gruesome discovery
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Speaker 2: a little girl in a suitcase.
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Speaker 3: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation
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Speaker 2: and Serious XM one eleven.
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Speaker 3: Listen to our friends at kat RK.
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Speaker 4: A man cutting grass here in this pasture, off I
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Speaker 4: forty five found a container. Inside were baby clothes, pampers,
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Speaker 4: and the remains of a little girl just left out
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Speaker 4: in the middle of nowhere.
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Speaker 5: You know when you open a container that the skull
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Speaker 5: was definitely identifiable, the jawbone was.
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Speaker 6: In plain sight, and if not, I am and so
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Speaker 6: that's when.
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Speaker 5: Your heart thanks You think, oh mercy, we went.
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Speaker 6: In or here.
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Speaker 4: Investigators believe someone from out of town left that little
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Speaker 4: girl's body here in Madisonville, and her remains have been
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Speaker 4: hidden in that desolate pasture for more than six months.
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Speaker 7: I think the big city came to the country.
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Speaker 4: On a Tuesday evening here in this small town of Madisonville.
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Speaker 4: What five the local barbecue restaurant is packed.
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Speaker 6: I mean, everybody knows everybody.
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Speaker 4: Everyone at dinner talking about the mystery baby.
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Speaker 7: It's pretty much on everybody's tongue.
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Speaker 6: Today and we don't have these cases very often.
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Speaker 4: The shocking discovery made over the weekend.
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Speaker 7: But finding a child is his heartbreaking.
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Speaker 2: With Men All Star Panel two, pick apart what we
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Speaker 2: know right now the remains of a little girl believed
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Speaker 2: to be between two and six years old, stuffed in
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Speaker 2: a suitcase, found by a stranger out cutting the grass. First,
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Speaker 2: let's go to investigative reporter with KAGS News A thinker,
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Speaker 2: William Johnson.
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Speaker 3: William, thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: Tell us about the discovery of this girl in a suitcase.
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Speaker 8: The body was found on September seventeenth, and from what
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Speaker 8: I can understand, the little girl was somewhere between two
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Speaker 8: to six years old. They really didn't make that definitive,
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Speaker 8: but she had dark brown hair and she was somewhere
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Speaker 8: from the Southwest region.
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Speaker 2: Joining me right now, Daphne Young, National Chief Communications Officer
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Speaker 2: with Child Help at Childhelp dot Org. Daphney, thank you
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Speaker 2: for being with us. I know you see this type
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Speaker 2: of scenario every day, but I want to try to
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Speaker 2: analyze what we know right now. We know the little
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Speaker 2: girl is folded over inside of a suitcase. We know
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Speaker 2: that this happened around Madisonville, Texas. We also know that
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Speaker 2: it was out in a pasture off a major highway,
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Speaker 2: and I find that significant. First of all, Daphnie, let's
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Speaker 2: talk about the fact that this little girl we believe
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Speaker 2: as five years old, but could be anywhere between two
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Speaker 2: and six in a suitcase off a major highway. Let's
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Speaker 2: talk about the conditions under which the little girl is found.
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Speaker 2: And I have to solve this mystery. What do you
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Speaker 2: make of the fact that she's so near a major highway.
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Speaker 9: And that tells us that there's a highly likelihood that
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Speaker 9: she was pitched out of a vehicle like trash. She
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Speaker 9: may have been transported over a long area, she was
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Speaker 9: wrapped up and concealed. That tells me, obviously that there's
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Speaker 9: a great deal that whomever was involved put into trying
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Speaker 9: to hide this little child's identity, trying to wrap her up,
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Speaker 9: and then trying to dispose of her and get rid
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Speaker 9: of her in this past year, so someone wanted to
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Speaker 9: not only conceal the body, but also wanted to potentially
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Speaker 9: hide where they were from. And throwing this little tiny
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Speaker 9: child in a suitcase and throwing her out of a
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Speaker 9: moving car on a highway would allow them to get
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Speaker 9: right back on that major thoroughfare and get to their
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Speaker 9: next location or even return home.
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Speaker 2: Let's talk about Madisonville, Texas, because Daphnie Young just touched
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Speaker 2: a nerve. Who would put this child, a five year
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Speaker 2: old little girl in a suitcase and leave her out
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Speaker 2: in a pasture to decompose. First of all, Madisonville is
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Speaker 2: in the county seat of Madison County. The population is
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Speaker 2: only about five thousand people. That greatly reduces the number
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Speaker 2: of potential suspects. Straight out to IRV Miller joining me.
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Speaker 2: Renowned defense attorney with the Miller Firm. He also is
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Speaker 2: legal advisor to The Good Wife and The Good Fight
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Speaker 2: my CBS, and you can often find him on WBBM TV.
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Speaker 3: IRV Miller, thank you for joining us.
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Speaker 2: The fact that there's a population of five thousand people,
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Speaker 2: that's a significant factor in the investigation.
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Speaker 10: I think you have to add on a lot more
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Speaker 10: people to that because you have to add down all
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Speaker 10: the people that may be driving down the highway. It
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Speaker 10: could have just stopped, pulled over and took the suitcase
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Speaker 10: and dumped it on the side.
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Speaker 2: Well absolutely, I mean you and I were talking earlier
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Speaker 2: about the Shasta and Dylan Grownee case in Cordelaine, Idaho,
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Speaker 2: which is if you look down on it from above,
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Speaker 2: which I have, is completely green. You can't even see
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Speaker 2: the home where Shasta and Dylan were kidnapped where they
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Speaker 2: were kidnapped, because the part was driving by on it
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Speaker 2: very busy interstate and happened to look through and see
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Speaker 2: Shasta in the above ground pool.
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Speaker 3: It was not a local. It was a very small.
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Speaker 2: Area, rural, but it was near that thoroughfare, just like
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Speaker 2: this or of Miller, And.
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Speaker 10: I don't think that's by chance. So if I had
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Speaker 10: to make a guess, my guess would be instad a local.
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Speaker 10: If somebody driving down the highway and looking for some
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Speaker 10: nice deserted spot to dumped the suitcase off and continueing
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Speaker 10: their journey, that would be how I would look at
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Speaker 10: this one.
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Speaker 3: I mean.
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Speaker 2: And another thing, Madisonville is about four and a half
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Speaker 2: square miles. It's not big. It's not big at all.
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Speaker 2: So everybody in Madisonville knows everybody else. You'd have to
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Speaker 2: know that a little five year old girl had suddenly
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Speaker 2: gone missing, at least from school or pre k. Guys,
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Speaker 2: we're talking about a five year old little girl. We
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Speaker 2: believe she's five, stuffed in a suitcase and thrown out
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Speaker 2: into a pasture. William Johnson, joining US kags she was
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Speaker 2: a suitcase thrown or was it buried?
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Speaker 8: From what we understand, it seems like it was thrown,
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Speaker 8: and so that's what made this story just really interesting,
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Speaker 8: at least from a journalist perspective, because you don't often
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Speaker 8: come across a story at least admitting person's cases. You're
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Speaker 8: usually looking for someone actually who has gone missing. You
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Speaker 8: rarely find a case where you find or remain to
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Speaker 8: someone and you just don't know how to respond after that,
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Speaker 8: and from there it just becomes about picking up pieces
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Speaker 8: and puzzling it all together.
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Speaker 2: Guys, we also know that Madisonville, Texas, is about one
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Speaker 2: hundred miles north of Houston. Would someone drive all the
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Speaker 2: way from Houston to dump this suitcase with a little
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Speaker 2: girl in it? I mean to you, Doctor Carla Manley,
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Speaker 2: joining US, clinical psychologist and author of Date Smart, Transform
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Speaker 2: your relationships and love fearlessly, doctor Carla. In my experience
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Speaker 2: of investigating and prosecuting homicides, very often you find a
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Speaker 2: killer disposed of a body, disposed of evidence, commit any
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Speaker 2: in the faarious activity in a location with which they
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Speaker 2: are comfortable. For instance, Scott Peterson, he didn't drive five
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Speaker 2: hours away to dunt Lacy's body. He went to his
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Speaker 2: fishing hole and that is where he dun't Lacey and
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Speaker 2: his unborn son Connor. He was familiar with it. He
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Speaker 2: felt comfortable there, he knew his way around. Let's think, Okay,
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Speaker 2: here's another example. We all remember the case of Vanessa
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Speaker 2: Vanessa Gain, the beautiful young soldier at Fort Hood, right
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Speaker 2: there in Texas. Where did her killer dispose of her?
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Speaker 2: Where he was familiar with the area? Not too far
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Speaker 2: from Fort Hood? He dismembered her and tried to burn
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Speaker 2: her body and hide her body in a place with
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Speaker 2: which he was familiar. I mean, you know, think about it,
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Speaker 2: doctor Carla. If you want to get rid of evidence,
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Speaker 2: where do you go Somewhere you think is obscure. So
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Speaker 2: while this person, we keep thinking the killer, the person
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Speaker 2: that disposed of this little girl's body, could have been
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Speaker 2: from anywhere. That person knew about madisonvill Texas. So they've
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Speaker 2: got to have some connection with it.
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Speaker 11: Absolutely, it could be that because we are certain creatures
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Speaker 11: of habit and we do tend to when we're familiar
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Speaker 11: with our environment, you tend to think it's safer, more secure,
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Speaker 11: and it's more accessible. If it were a passerby somebody
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Speaker 11: traveling through. That indicates a different scenario altogether, where somebody
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Speaker 11: may have just been they've killed their daughter, killed the child,
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Speaker 11: was on a journey and disposed of it like trash
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Speaker 11: as they went on to their next destiny.
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Speaker 9: Could be either.
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Speaker 2: Case, or it could be a complete stranger that took
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Speaker 2: her and raped her and threw her there, although there
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Speaker 2: would have been a missing person's report, like William Johnson
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Speaker 2: Kags pointed out, and there.
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Speaker 9: Wasn't one absolutely in either case.
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Speaker 12: It's chilling and heartbreaking.
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Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: Guys, for those of you just joining us, a guy
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Speaker 2: cutting the grass finds a horrible makes a horrible discovery.
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Speaker 3: Out in the middle of a pasture.
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Speaker 2: He finds a suitcase with a dead little girl inside.
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Speaker 2: You know, another danger right there, And I'm going to
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Speaker 2: go back to Earth Miller on this very quickly. We'll
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Speaker 2: never forget that. Mister Ray Kronk found the remains of Killy,
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Speaker 2: the daughter of top Mom Casey Anthony, bagged up and
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Speaker 2: thrown out in a swampy area about ten houses down
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Speaker 2: from the Anthony home. He came under suspicion because he
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Speaker 2: found the body. He called multiple times to police to
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Speaker 2: come look at what he had found, and then he
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Speaker 2: came under suspicion. He was there by the way, rightfully,
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Speaker 2: that was part of his job, that he was in
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Speaker 2: that location and he happened to see this bag. And
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Speaker 2: then of course he became a target. Everyone suggesting he
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Speaker 2: was the killer. And that was a line of suggestion
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Speaker 2: by the defense at the trial. So this guy out
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Speaker 2: cutting his grass, he has to be on the ready
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Speaker 2: earth miller before he get explained.
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Speaker 10: Oh, no question about it. And if I could throw
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Speaker 10: out one other example for you that's typical over the years,
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Speaker 10: and that's people dumping bodies and rivers and hoping the
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Speaker 10: current of the river will take the body far away
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Speaker 10: from where the body was placed in the river so
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Speaker 10: its aids in their escape. And obviously the person finds
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Speaker 10: the body is the first suspect and that has to
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Speaker 10: be checked out. And I'm sure that's the very first
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Speaker 10: thing that the local authorities did to see if there
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Speaker 10: was any connection. Probably put the guy in a polyagraa.
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Speaker 10: It took DNA samples, questioned him to try to clear
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Speaker 10: them or to try to continue on with the investigation
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Speaker 10: considering him as a suspect.
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Speaker 2: Can you imagine the shot This guy in George probably
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Speaker 2: still has nightmares about it, finding this suitcase, opening it
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Speaker 2: up and finding a little girl folded over inside. Guys,
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Speaker 2: take a listen to our cut five our forends at
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Speaker 2: KP n.
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Speaker 3: X and that's you to say.
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Speaker 13: The little girl's remains had been there for a few
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Speaker 13: months before being discovered. They're not hoping new composite sketches
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Speaker 13: will help identify her. In this pasture just onf I
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Speaker 13: forty five near Madisonville, Texas, is where they found her.
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Speaker 13: The skeletel remains of a little girl, her pink dress
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Speaker 13: and blankets, all dumped on the side of the road
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Speaker 13: like trash.
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Speaker 14: She has found in touching garbage bag that has been
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Speaker 14: placed inside of it.
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Speaker 13: At Virtue Case, Ashley Rodriguez is a forensic case manager
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Speaker 13: for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
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Speaker 14: There were people who the end of the little girl. I
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Speaker 14: just heard about this little.
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Speaker 3: Girl and they made very well.
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Speaker 14: They'll be wondering what happened to her.
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Speaker 15: Little girl.
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Speaker 2: You know, I find every every bit of information is
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Speaker 2: the clue joining me right now. Dorian Bond, very well
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Speaker 2: known private detective, owner of Bond Investigations, also in Texas.
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Speaker 2: You can find them at Bond Investigations dot com. Dorian,
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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. I find it probative.
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Speaker 2: It proves something to me that this little girl was
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Speaker 2: wrapped in several garbage bags, then put into a suitcase,
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Speaker 2: and then of course thrown out in the middle of
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Speaker 2: this pasture number one, the garbage bags are a great
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Speaker 2: purveyor of fingerprints.
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Speaker 3: They really can hold a print.
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Speaker 2: That's been my experience getting prints off garbage bags, and
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Speaker 2: it tells me something else. If you'll remember, Killy Anthony
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Speaker 2: was wrapped up in garbage bags but also disposed of
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Speaker 2: with her favorite blanket. This little girl had on a
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Speaker 2: dipe and a little pink dress and was wrapped up
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Speaker 2: in garbage bags and then put into the suitcase.
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Speaker 3: What does that tell you?
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Speaker 16: That tells me that it's probably a person that has
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Speaker 16: never done this before.
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Speaker 17: They don't understand forensics, They don't understand exactly how the
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Speaker 17: police work.
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Speaker 2: To doctor Tim Gallagher joining us renow met examiner for
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Speaker 2: the State of Florida, lecturer University Florida Medical School and
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Speaker 2: forensic Medicine founder and host on the International Forensic Medicine
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Speaker 2: Death Investigation Conference. Doctor Gallagher, it's a real honor to
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Speaker 2: have you with us today. What are what would be
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Speaker 2: your procedures at the Medical Examiner's office when you get
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Speaker 2: this suitcase inside you see garbage bags inside that it's
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Speaker 2: a little girl.
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Speaker 18: This is a very good question, and it does happen
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Speaker 18: more than is reported generally. When we get something like that,
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Speaker 18: we bring in the entire suitcase with everything intact, and
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Speaker 18: we go through it layer by layer, meaning that we
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Speaker 18: remove the lid. Before we remove the lid, we try
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Speaker 18: to find a trace evidence. We may look for fingerprints,
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Speaker 18: for mail, for hair samples of plant samples, et cetera.
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Speaker 18: On the outside of the suitcase. And then as we
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Speaker 18: open it, as we go through the layer and layer
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Speaker 18: of garbage bags, you know, we are saving everything and
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Speaker 18: we are submitting all of that for DNA evidence, for
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Speaker 18: trace evidence, fingerprint evidence, and it's a very slow procedure
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Speaker 18: and it's a very careful and exactly one because we
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Speaker 18: don't want to lose anything, we don't want to contaminate anything.
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Speaker 18: So so after we are done with the surrounding garbage
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Speaker 18: bags or plastic or anything like that. Then it's time
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Speaker 18: to examine the exterior of the body and see if
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Speaker 18: there are any injuries, if there are any types of
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Speaker 18: devices on the body, and then we'll do the internal
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Speaker 18: examination to find out the exact cause of death.
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Speaker 3: Well, that was a lot of information, Dottie Gallagher.
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Speaker 2: We know that the bag was a black fabric roller board,
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Speaker 2: like so many of us carry, not the hard type luggage,
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Speaker 2: but flexible. Again, that is a fantastic surface to get
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Speaker 2: fiber evidence, hair evidence, touch DNA. Doctor Tim Gallagher, medical
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Speaker 2: examiner joining us out of Florida. How do you go
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Speaker 2: about preserving a roller board suitcase kind of looks like
17:28
Speaker 2: a backpack on wheels, you know, with the expandable handle
17:35
Speaker 2: that you can pull it through the airport. That's what
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Speaker 2: it looks like. How do you go about preserving that evidence?
17:41
Speaker 2: And then to Dorian Bond and Arthan Miller, how can
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Speaker 2: we also track the make and model so to speak
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Speaker 2: of the suitcase.
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Speaker 3: But first to you, doctor Gallagher.
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Speaker 18: Well, that's going to be very important to do. The
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Speaker 18: first thing is to remember to transport it, you know,
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Speaker 18: without contaminating any of the things on the outside. So
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Speaker 18: the person who's doing the examination would have to be
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Speaker 18: in a hazmat suit or a very protective suit. And
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Speaker 18: then the other thing is it has to be taken
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Speaker 18: to a special drying room where a lot of the moisture,
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Speaker 18: you know, is removed from it. And then from there
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Speaker 18: you can start processing. You can start going over looking
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Speaker 18: for as we were talking about before, a touch, DNA evidence,
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Speaker 18: fingerprints and other trace evidence there. So the important thing
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Speaker 18: is not to contaminate it and to get it dried
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Speaker 18: and into a state where they can start doing the examination.
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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a very elaborate process, you know. I want
18:39
Speaker 2: to talk about how that suitcase itself can be traced
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Speaker 2: or of Miller joining us attorney with the Miller Firm
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Speaker 2: and legal analyst RV. I said, make and model like
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Speaker 2: I would about a car, but everything from duct tape
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Speaker 2: to garbage bags. Two suitcases can be traced to a manufacturer,
19:05
Speaker 2: where it was sold, part of the not just where
19:09
Speaker 2: it was sold, what store, but what part of the
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Speaker 2: country in which it was sold.
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Speaker 3: A lot can be learned from that suitcase. I hope
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Speaker 3: they're doing it.
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Speaker 10: I think it depends on the type of suitcase it is.
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Speaker 10: Is it the one that's in general distribution throughout the country.
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Speaker 10: Is it something that perhaps is sold by Amazon, which
19:26
Speaker 10: could go to anywhere in the country. They're looking for
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Speaker 10: that point of sale, event of where the potential retail
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Speaker 10: store was that could have sold this suitcase to somebody
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Speaker 10: that could have put it into the hands of the
19:40
Speaker 10: person that eventually used it to transport this child in.
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Speaker 3: What about a Dorian bond.
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Speaker 16: Yeah, tracking of that suitcase, like you said, is going
19:47
Speaker 16: to be very important a lot. I've kind of done
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Speaker 16: this before once when some items have been included in
19:53
Speaker 16: evidence and contacting the manufacturer, they see who they distributed to.
19:59
Speaker 16: When it contributed to a Walmart, you can narrow it
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Speaker 16: down by the styles, sometimes the colors, and if it's
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Speaker 16: a small store, it's a local regional store, that's that's
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Speaker 16: the best that you can track it down to. Then
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Speaker 16: you can see where then you can track the sales
20:17
Speaker 16: who purchased them. They have a suspect, Let's say the
20:20
Speaker 16: suspect is a truck driver or something like that, they
20:23
Speaker 16: would go to that truck driver's log to see if
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Speaker 16: he was in that certain area when that certain suitcase
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Speaker 16: was purchased.
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Speaker 2: In the midst of all this a very unusual clue Amarges.
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Speaker 3: Take a listen to our cut eleven kp n X.
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Speaker 19: The skeletal remains of a little girl, her pink dress
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Speaker 19: and blankets, all found dumped in a pasture on the
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Speaker 19: side of a Texas highway.
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Speaker 20: Most likely the person responsible for placing the remains of
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Speaker 20: the young child on the side of the road are
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Speaker 20: they're not from our area.
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Speaker 19: Chuck Lieger with the Amber her Oldert network has been
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Speaker 19: digging into the case.
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Speaker 21: Pallen analysis has indicated at least a tie to the
21:06
Speaker 21: southwestern United States, particularly the southeastern part of Arizona, or
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Speaker 21: the northern or northern Mexico.
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Speaker 19: He says, someone in that area knows something.
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Speaker 2: Guys pollen emerging as a clue to the name of
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Speaker 2: this little girl. That unidentified baby, Jane Doe, stuffed in
21:29
Speaker 2: a suitcase and found in a very small town, Madisonville, Texas.
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Speaker 2: Take a listen now to our friend Mike Gonzalez.
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Speaker 22: While she was found in Texas, a closer look at
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Speaker 22: the pollen grains on both her remains and the suitcase
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Speaker 22: suggest she was from somewhere in the southwest United States
21:47
Speaker 22: or just below that region. It's even more likely she
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Speaker 22: was from southeast Arizona. DNA test show.
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Speaker 5: She could have been Caucasian out in the world, and
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Speaker 5: we want to go back figuring out.
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Speaker 6: This case, Who this is and why do this happen?
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Speaker 22: How this happen, leaving us with more clues than answers
22:06
Speaker 22: as investigators continue to try and figure out who this
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Speaker 22: little girl is too.
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Speaker 2: Daphnie Young joining US national Chief Communications officer at Childhelp
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Speaker 2: dot Org. Daphne, I'm seen cases cracked on even more
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Speaker 2: unusual clues than this, But don't you agree that, for instance,
22:30
Speaker 2: soil samples found on a child's shoes, on bugs even.
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Speaker 3: Found on their body.
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Speaker 2: And the extent of maturation of those insects, much like
22:44
Speaker 2: pollen twigs, foliage found at the scene, in the suitcase,
22:50
Speaker 2: in the trash bag, on the child, are emerging as
22:54
Speaker 2: very very solid clues.
22:56
Speaker 3: Daphne.
22:57
Speaker 9: Absolutely, nature is on the side of the victim in
23:00
Speaker 9: this case, because that is evidence that can be imperceptible
23:04
Speaker 9: to the human eye. Most people don't even think about it.
23:07
Speaker 9: We heard earlier that this is not an experienced criminal.
23:10
Speaker 9: Pollen grains can get into clothing, bags, shoes, under fingernails.
23:15
Speaker 9: At ASU, I checked into it and researchers are doing
23:18
Speaker 9: geo computation to identify.
23:21
Speaker 2: The hold hold on geo computation explain, So that's where
23:26
Speaker 2: they try to identify the footprints of the pollen.
23:30
Speaker 9: There's apparently a mathematical model where you could determine where
23:34
Speaker 9: a certain plant blooms, its regional bearings, all of this.
23:37
Speaker 9: So we're located in Arizona where there is potential that
23:42
Speaker 9: this pollen comes from. This is Wiaer Country, Tombstone, Bisbee,
23:47
Speaker 9: the remote Churikawa Mountains. There's a huge moving into Mexico.
23:52
Speaker 9: There's a huge sloth of space in southeast Arizona. But
23:56
Speaker 9: it is fascinating that this information can be a clue
24:00
Speaker 9: on the side of this little child to say she
24:02
Speaker 9: was here, someone has to know her.
24:05
Speaker 2: To you, doctor Tim Gallagher, how does it work? You
24:08
Speaker 2: find paulen on, what the clothing, the hair, and then
24:11
Speaker 2: how do you match that pollen to somewhere else here
24:14
Speaker 2: we're thinking parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico, but most
24:19
Speaker 2: likely the bottom right hand area of Arizona on the
24:23
Speaker 2: New Mexico border. That's where we're thinking Arizona. How do
24:28
Speaker 2: you do that and how do you as a medical
24:31
Speaker 2: examiner say, oh, there's pollen, I'm going to collect it.
24:34
Speaker 18: Well, if the person was laying outside for any length
24:38
Speaker 18: of time, pollin will naturally settle on them, you know.
24:42
Speaker 18: So if you were able to determine this person was
24:44
Speaker 18: outside for any length of time, you would certainly collect
24:46
Speaker 18: for pollen. Now, how pollen works is that each specific
24:51
Speaker 18: plant has its own specific pollen. It's it's as though
24:55
Speaker 18: it's the fingerprint of the plant. So no to pollen.
25:01
Speaker 18: No two pieces of pollen are the same from different
25:04
Speaker 18: types of plants. So so horticulturists have catalogued each and
25:09
Speaker 18: every type of pollen that they're aware of. So you
25:12
Speaker 18: would look at the pollen under the microscope and you
25:15
Speaker 18: would see the structure of that pollen, and then you
25:18
Speaker 18: would reference it through the horticultural atlas and find out,
25:23
Speaker 18: you know, what plant this is from, and then determine
25:26
Speaker 18: what part of the country that plant is native in,
25:28
Speaker 18: and then you will be able to determine the area
25:32
Speaker 18: of search, as these people apparently did the southwest part
25:35
Speaker 18: of the United States. So just based on the type
25:39
Speaker 18: of pollend, the microscopic structure of it, and then referencing
25:43
Speaker 18: it against the catalog that will give you the approximate
25:46
Speaker 18: location for the native area where that pollen may have
25:49
Speaker 18: came from.
25:50
Speaker 3: And how do you collect it off the clothing of
25:53
Speaker 3: the air.
25:54
Speaker 18: There are several ways you can do that. You can
25:55
Speaker 18: use an adhesive based of plastic, or you can use
25:59
Speaker 18: a vacuum type system. Either one of them is just
26:03
Speaker 18: as effective. They are just several different ways. I was
26:07
Speaker 18: involved in one case where a honeybee was actually in
26:12
Speaker 18: the person's clothing and we were able to get the
26:15
Speaker 18: pollen from the legs of the honey bee in that
26:18
Speaker 18: particular case, So you'd be surprised. You have to go
26:22
Speaker 18: in with an open mind. You can find it, as
26:24
Speaker 18: the other person said, anywhere anywhere on the body.
26:27
Speaker 3: That is amazing to me.
26:29
Speaker 2: And I don't understand how you can collect it with
26:31
Speaker 2: an adhesive such as tape or that a vacuum without
26:37
Speaker 2: destroying it.
26:38
Speaker 3: Doctor.
26:39
Speaker 18: Well, pollen is released into the atmosphere by the plant
26:43
Speaker 18: and it could travel several miles and bump over several things.
26:46
Speaker 18: The structures are of the pollen, the microscopic individual pollen
26:50
Speaker 18: grains are almost indestructible. I mean, there's not really a
26:54
Speaker 18: whole lot you can do to them outside of burn them,
26:57
Speaker 18: that would destroy them. So they are very very robust
27:01
Speaker 18: and very easy to collect.
27:03
Speaker 2: I think if it as like baby powder, I mean,
27:06
Speaker 2: is it that substantial or is it even more fine
27:09
Speaker 2: than baby powder?
27:10
Speaker 18: Well, generally you find them in clumps, you know, so
27:14
Speaker 18: they would either be a very brilliant green color or
27:17
Speaker 18: a very bright yellow color, so that helps. Then of
27:20
Speaker 18: course you would go over the clothing with a very
27:23
Speaker 18: high powered not microscope but sometimes a magnifying glass and
27:29
Speaker 18: with high lighting, different types of lighting and that will
27:32
Speaker 18: illuminate you know, different types of material one of those
27:34
Speaker 18: materials being pollen.
27:35
Speaker 3: What light would that be that illuminates pollen?
27:38
Speaker 18: There are different wavelengths of light that you can use,
27:42
Speaker 18: and of course each pollen will have a slightly different wavelength.
27:46
Speaker 18: But we have machines that go through a series of
27:48
Speaker 18: wavelengths and one of them, it will definitely hit on
27:52
Speaker 18: one of them that will reflect back a positivity for
27:57
Speaker 18: pollen Dotga Gallagher.
27:59
Speaker 2: That is amazing and your depth of knowledge, I mean,
28:06
Speaker 2: that's amazing to me. We now know that a DNA
28:11
Speaker 2: profile has been done for the little girl. Take a
28:15
Speaker 2: listen to our cut seven our forensic KPN x Well.
28:18
Speaker 13: Her remains were dumped in Texas, paulland found on her
28:21
Speaker 13: belongings point to her being from somewhere further west.
28:25
Speaker 14: You would either from Arizona or spend some time in
28:28
Speaker 14: Arizona prior to her death.
28:30
Speaker 13: Well, it's still unclear what led to the little girl's death.
28:33
Speaker 13: Rodriguez is hoping that polland and pictures are the first
28:36
Speaker 13: steps in unraveling the mystery of who she is and
28:39
Speaker 13: what happened to her.
28:40
Speaker 14: You really want to be able to help to give
28:43
Speaker 14: her her name back and find some vestors for her.
28:46
Speaker 13: The agency does now have a DNA profile for the
28:48
Speaker 13: little girl. It's being run through national databases. If you
28:52
Speaker 13: have any information on who this little girl is, you're
28:54
Speaker 13: asked to call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.
29:10
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
29:13
Speaker 2: Back to Daphne Young, our special guests joining us from
29:17
Speaker 2: She's a national chief Communications officer with Childhelp dot Org
29:22
Speaker 2: who helps thousands and thousands of children every year.
29:28
Speaker 3: It's amazing, Daphne.
29:31
Speaker 2: It sounds to me that just running this child's DNA
29:35
Speaker 2: through the database, that's not going to cut it, because
29:38
Speaker 2: someone in her immediate family would have to have their
29:42
Speaker 2: DNA in the system, like a purp for instance, or
29:45
Speaker 2: a government employee that had to give DNA. An ancestral
29:50
Speaker 2: DNA chart tree must be done to find out who
29:55
Speaker 2: the parents are of this little girl and ancestral Let
30:01
Speaker 2: me give a good example to make sense. Think about
30:04
Speaker 2: the Golden State killer Joseph Dangelo. We had DNA but
30:09
Speaker 2: couldn't find him in the system. So DNA experts built
30:13
Speaker 2: out an ancestral DNA family tree. They had to go
30:18
Speaker 2: all the way back to I think it was the
30:21
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds and follow the great great great great great
30:24
Speaker 2: great great grandfather of connected to this DNA down to
30:28
Speaker 2: the next set, the next set, the next set, and
30:30
Speaker 2: then find out who connected to the most recent DNA
30:34
Speaker 2: was in the area, and that it wasn't like a
30:37
Speaker 2: three year old little boy or a ninety year old woman.
30:40
Speaker 2: Had to be someone that fit with a killer slash rapist.
30:43
Speaker 2: And they got Joseph Dangelo bam, just like that. And
30:47
Speaker 2: you know what he said when he was arrested. Oh wait,
30:49
Speaker 2: well way, I've got a roast in the oven. Yeah,
30:52
Speaker 2: he's convicted. That's building an ancestral family tree.
30:58
Speaker 3: Is that being done?
31:00
Speaker 9: I think It's so important because, as the expert said before,
31:03
Speaker 9: I don't think we're looking for career criminals. The psychology
31:06
Speaker 9: of that child wrapped and the blankets and the personal
31:10
Speaker 9: effects with this little girl seem to indicate this is
31:13
Speaker 9: an intimate caregiver, a parent, somebody who connected to the child.
31:18
Speaker 9: We know from the psychology of abusers that if you
31:22
Speaker 9: are close to someone, even when you've done the most
31:24
Speaker 9: horrific thing to them, you create almost like a makeshift
31:27
Speaker 9: burial or cover their face or eyes. You don't want
31:30
Speaker 9: that little soul looking back at you. And so I
31:33
Speaker 9: definitely think we're looking for someone in the family. And
31:36
Speaker 9: to your point, if that's not a career criminal, then
31:39
Speaker 9: we definitely need to find out who gave birth to
31:42
Speaker 9: this little child and who was connected to this family.
31:45
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and statistics definitely show the most likely per is
31:50
Speaker 2: someone related to or connected to this child. And let's
31:53
Speaker 2: remember wherever the mom and dad are. They haven't reported
31:57
Speaker 2: her missing, are they the per? I mean, we have
32:01
Speaker 2: to look at the harsh facts in addition to the
32:06
Speaker 2: heartbreaking nature of a five year old little girl dead,
32:12
Speaker 2: wrapped in blankets and garbage bags, put in a rollerboard,
32:19
Speaker 2: and thrown out in a pasture. This little child had
32:23
Speaker 2: some sort of an ailment. Take a listen to our
32:28
Speaker 2: cut eight our friends at twelve news.
32:30
Speaker 22: Investigators are releasing a picture of a feeding tube that was.
32:33
Speaker 7: Found on that little girl's body.
32:36
Speaker 22: The skeletal remains of a little girl, her pink dress,
32:39
Speaker 22: and blankets all dumped on the side of the road
32:41
Speaker 22: like trash. Now, this picture of the little girl's feeding
32:45
Speaker 22: tube is being released publicly for the first time as
32:48
Speaker 22: investigators in Texas try to figure out the girl's death.
32:51
Speaker 22: Madison Sheriff Travis Neely was at the scene.
32:54
Speaker 6: It was a weekend. I think it was a Saturday.
32:58
Speaker 6: I was at home doing odds and.
33:00
Speaker 2: Ends at home doing odds and ends when the sheriff
33:04
Speaker 2: Sheriff Neelie is called out to this pasture. Significantly, this
33:09
Speaker 2: child had a feeding tube. The most vulnerable and helpless,
33:17
Speaker 2: a little taught five year old girl with a feeding tube.
33:22
Speaker 2: Now did.
33:25
Speaker 3: Take a listen to more from our friends at twelve News.
33:28
Speaker 22: The call came in about skeletal remains in a pasture
33:31
Speaker 22: off a highway on Interstate forty five between Dallas and Houston.
33:35
Speaker 22: Experts say the girl who was between the ages of
33:38
Speaker 22: two and six, likely suffered from a condition called micronathia,
33:42
Speaker 22: affecting her ability to eat on her own and she
33:45
Speaker 22: needed lifelong medical attention. Forensic artists from the National Center
33:49
Speaker 22: for Missing and Exploited Children used a CT scan of
33:52
Speaker 22: the girl's skull, so you create these images of what
33:55
Speaker 22: she may have looked like to help jog someone's memory.
33:58
Speaker 2: A CAT scan on this child's head to create a composite.
34:04
Speaker 2: I have personally commandeered composites of unidentified murder victims. We
34:13
Speaker 2: did not have use of a cat scan. That is amazing,
34:18
Speaker 2: but now we know this little girl found with a
34:21
Speaker 2: feeding tube. I want to circle back Dorian Bond orv.
34:26
Speaker 2: Miller with the idea of whether a feeding tube or
34:30
Speaker 2: medical paraphernalia can be tracked with some sort of for
34:34
Speaker 2: lack of a better phrase, a then number on it,
34:38
Speaker 2: like on a pacemaker or an AFIB device. They have
34:43
Speaker 2: numbers on them and you can track to whom that
34:47
Speaker 2: particular device was given. But I want to find out
34:50
Speaker 2: about micro nathia. What is that, doctor Gallagher.
34:55
Speaker 18: Micro Nazia is a developmental delay in the formation of
34:59
Speaker 18: the job. So generally it's a very very small jaw
35:03
Speaker 18: maybe incapable of chewing, but typically what causes it is
35:09
Speaker 18: sometimes it's an injury to that area, you know, at
35:12
Speaker 18: a very young age, or there are some genetic diseases
35:16
Speaker 18: that have micronathia or poorly developed jaw you know, as
35:21
Speaker 18: part of their genetic makeup. It could be a genetic problem,
35:25
Speaker 18: much like down syndrome is a genetic problem. There are
35:29
Speaker 18: certain other diseases and conditions that have that feature to
35:35
Speaker 18: the micronathia. It could also mean that instead of an
35:40
Speaker 18: injury or developmental problem, the child could have been exposed
35:44
Speaker 18: to a toxin at a very early age, or even
35:47
Speaker 18: a caustic agent such as dreno bleach, something in that area,
35:52
Speaker 18: you know, that would cause that poorly developed jaw you know,
35:56
Speaker 18: to express itself.
35:57
Speaker 3: Micro Nafia is that you're saying, doctor Gallagher.
36:01
Speaker 18: Right, yeah, micro nathia micro meaning small nathia meaning jaw,
36:05
Speaker 18: So basically small jaw, but it's because of a developmental
36:09
Speaker 18: problem with it. That is what this child is experiencing
36:14
Speaker 18: and most likely why they needed the gastric tube or
36:16
Speaker 18: G tube or feeding tube.
36:18
Speaker 3: Well, it seems to me.
36:19
Speaker 2: If her ailment is simply a malformed lower jaw. Couldn't
36:25
Speaker 2: that be fixed with kids? Try to surgery?
36:29
Speaker 18: Well, it could be a one of it could be
36:34
Speaker 18: one of the problems she has in a larger genetic
36:37
Speaker 18: problem that she has in a larger genetic disease. There
36:40
Speaker 18: are certain diseases called Pataus syndrome or Edward syndrome that
36:45
Speaker 18: there's many, many other problems they have, including the jaw.
36:49
Speaker 18: So just fixing the jaw isn't necessarily going to fix
36:52
Speaker 18: the problem. So reconstructing the jaw, no, not at somebody
36:57
Speaker 18: who's that age, because they're still growing, you know, So
37:00
Speaker 18: it would be surgery upon surgery upon surgery, you know,
37:02
Speaker 18: as they get older, you know, into their teenage years,
37:05
Speaker 18: into their adult years. So it would be it would
37:08
Speaker 18: be serial surgeries to get that corrected in the right way.
37:13
Speaker 2: What more do we know about the evidence as it
37:16
Speaker 2: relates to this tiny girl's microme, Nafia take a listen
37:20
Speaker 2: to our friends Katie or k.
37:22
Speaker 4: Forensic testing shows the girl was between the ages of
37:25
Speaker 4: two and five, her body underdeveloped, and she suffered from
37:29
Speaker 4: a serious medical condition.
37:31
Speaker 5: Inside of the bones and the container was a pig tube,
37:36
Speaker 5: which is a medical tube that is inserted medically through
37:40
Speaker 5: the ribs for feeding in the stomach, feed liquids with.
37:43
Speaker 4: The SERB says that feeding tube is the biggest lead
37:46
Speaker 4: right now.
37:47
Speaker 3: The stock number was still on it.
37:49
Speaker 4: Investigators tracked down the company who made it to see
37:52
Speaker 4: what hospital it was sent to. Hopefully hospital records will
37:56
Speaker 4: reveal who the little girl was and who left her here.
38:00
Speaker 3: I find it.
38:00
Speaker 2: Really hard to believe Dafney Young, that we've got the age,
38:05
Speaker 2: an approximate age, a rollerboard, her clothing, a blanket, and
38:10
Speaker 2: a feeding tube that was sorted through her ribs with
38:14
Speaker 2: a stock number audit and we can't identify this child.
38:18
Speaker 9: It's a downright bizarre because she was in a healthcare
38:21
Speaker 9: system for a spell. Doctors, nurses, text pop who clean
38:25
Speaker 9: the rooms. She had a very visual disability that would
38:28
Speaker 9: have been made her easy to remember. She was tiny
38:32
Speaker 9: and to describe such a petite little girl. She may
38:35
Speaker 9: have had issues of failure to thrive that medical professionals
38:38
Speaker 9: would be paying attention to because the body may be smaller,
38:42
Speaker 9: she may be even older but had trouble eating and
38:45
Speaker 9: the nutrition piece of this may have been difficult. And
38:48
Speaker 9: also we know that children with disabilities are four times
38:51
Speaker 9: more likely to be abused, and thirty three percent of
38:54
Speaker 9: those have medical conditions. So often folks working in hospitals
38:59
Speaker 9: have been properly are also being very careful about assuring
39:03
Speaker 9: the bonding with an infant that has special needs during
39:07
Speaker 9: those early pregnancy times where they're just trying to make
39:11
Speaker 9: sure that things are cop aesthetic with the mother and
39:14
Speaker 9: the father and the child in these circumstances. So it
39:16
Speaker 9: felt like there should have been so many eyes. And
39:19
Speaker 9: I'm just wondering why no one is coming forward or.
39:22
Speaker 3: Mailer joining us right now.
39:23
Speaker 2: Criminal defense attorney, you've handled a lot of cases, or
39:27
Speaker 2: what happens to parents just get tired of taking care
39:30
Speaker 2: of a sick child and they just kill.
39:32
Speaker 10: It, you know, as a former prosecutor like you and
39:35
Speaker 10: then a criminal defense attorney that I'm doing now, I
39:38
Speaker 10: think it's fair to say that dead is one of
39:41
Speaker 10: the possible causes in this particular case. Don't forget that
39:45
Speaker 10: the cause of death was undetermined by the medical examiner
39:49
Speaker 10: in this case.
39:50
Speaker 6: We don't know that.
39:51
Speaker 10: The child died as a result of foul play or
39:55
Speaker 10: of natural causes. And I have to tell you this
39:57
Speaker 10: thing with the illnes this and the feeding tube tells
40:02
Speaker 10: me one thing that she was not a local child,
40:05
Speaker 10: because I guarantee you that the law enforcement authorities to
40:09
Speaker 10: hospitals then I would say, several hundred miles of this
40:13
Speaker 10: town of Madisonville to see if they had any patient
40:18
Speaker 10: care with these particular things that disease itself and the
40:21
Speaker 10: insertion of a feeding tube. I guarantee you that that
40:25
Speaker 10: was done, and nothing apparently has come up in all
40:27
Speaker 10: these years that would lead them to believe that they
40:31
Speaker 10: were able to find somebody based upon a local ill
40:35
Speaker 10: child that they would now be able to Deathie.
40:37
Speaker 2: Let me throw a legal phrase at e Dorian Bond.
40:40
Speaker 2: Dorian Bond joining us from Bond Investigations dot com. You
40:44
Speaker 2: just heard something Erv Miller say, and here's the legal
40:47
Speaker 2: term natural causes. My rear end. If this child had
40:53
Speaker 2: died of natural causes, don't you know they would have
40:57
Speaker 2: taken her to the hospital to try to save her life,
40:59
Speaker 2: give it her a burial. That's totally a sorry, ur Miller.
41:03
Speaker 2: This child did not die of natural causes. And they thought, oh, oh,
41:08
Speaker 2: that's just like top mom Casey Anthy going oh yeah,
41:10
Speaker 2: Canty drowned in the pool.
41:12
Speaker 3: So what you had your dad or.
41:14
Speaker 2: You put her in a garbage bag and throw in
41:17
Speaker 2: a swamp. That's a lie. This child did not die
41:21
Speaker 2: of natural causes.
41:22
Speaker 16: Yeah, natural causes is kind of uh. You can just
41:27
Speaker 16: add a lot of a lot of things to it
41:29
Speaker 16: in natural causes. If you fell off of a building,
41:31
Speaker 16: it's a natural cause, but of course its force trauma.
41:34
Speaker 16: But it could be natural causes because they had a
41:36
Speaker 16: heart attack when they stand on the edge of a
41:38
Speaker 16: building or something. You never know.
41:39
Speaker 17: So that's I mean, I think once you wrap over,
41:43
Speaker 17: you wrap a child up in a in a garbage bag,
41:45
Speaker 17: put it in the suitcase, and put it in a field,
41:47
Speaker 17: and things like that. We want to understand what happened
41:50
Speaker 17: before it got to that point, and the medical issues
41:54
Speaker 17: and the breathe, the feeding tube, things like that.
41:58
Speaker 16: That's a good place to start an investigate.
42:00
Speaker 2: Oh man, you are so right, Dorian Bond and doctor
42:03
Speaker 2: Carl and Manley. I just think about this little child,
42:08
Speaker 2: this little five year old girl who's already struggling with
42:13
Speaker 2: a malformed jaw in life, she can't eat properly, and
42:18
Speaker 2: now she's dead. Why do parents pick on torture and
42:25
Speaker 2: abuse the child that is disabled.
42:29
Speaker 15: It's such a good question. Now, san This is not
42:32
Speaker 15: meant in any way to say it's appropriate to ever
42:35
Speaker 15: abuse a child. Children who are who have disabilities. Child
42:40
Speaker 15: abuse neglect is reported to be three percent to ten
42:44
Speaker 15: percent higher in that population, and I believe that there
42:48
Speaker 15: are several reasons. One, the child, especially child with disabilities,
42:53
Speaker 15: can't report what's happening. They often are so compromised they
42:57
Speaker 15: can't report it. Second, we often see and abuse children
43:01
Speaker 15: and I worked in juvenile probation for several years. The
43:06
Speaker 15: children are so afraid that even if they are able
43:08
Speaker 15: to explain what's going on, but I'm not afraid of
43:10
Speaker 15: losing that primary caregiver. When we look at the parents,
43:14
Speaker 15: the parents are often so compromised mental health in mental
43:19
Speaker 15: health ways and children who have disabilities. Depending upon the
43:23
Speaker 15: nature of the disabilities, it can be extremely tiring and taxing,
43:27
Speaker 15: and the parents often do not have the resources and
43:30
Speaker 15: the support they need to get stable and in some
43:33
Speaker 15: cases at what they do is to harm the child, react,
43:39
Speaker 15: take their frustration out on the child, and the child
43:43
Speaker 15: ends up dead like this, poor little thing.
43:46
Speaker 2: Doctor carl and Manley. Not what I wanted to hear,
43:48
Speaker 2: but true. If you know or thank you know anything
43:53
Speaker 2: about this poor little girl, please call nine three six
43:58
Speaker 2: three four eight twenty seven fifty five. Repeat nine three six,
44:03
Speaker 2: three four eight twenty seven fifty five.
44:06
Speaker 3: Goodbye friend,