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OpenAI's Hee Jin Cho: Turn your side project into a full-time role · Pre-Sales Pathways

• Chris: I would love to hear in your words a bit about what your role involves. Heejin: Technically a solutions Engineer, but I have a special remit in the sense that I work with our International Expansion team to help launch offices in other countries. Chris: How did you take it from a side project into a formalised role? Heejin: I didn't start out by saying, I'm gonna go launch Korea, right? Find a small problem and align it with your skill set. I had the drive to like keep doing it is what led to the side project becoming this rotation. Chris: A lot of people will be listening to this and they'll say, "I want to do something different to the standard SE role" But it's not all rosy, right? Heejin: It is very, very hard to have your baby called ugly, which will happen a thousand times over. I have personally learned to not be precious about anything I build. Chris: A trap I imagine people could fall into is they suddenly just end up doing two jobs. Heejin: Be very, very honest with yourself and with your manager, whoever is sponsoring you, on scope, what it means to succeed, and be very honest about what you need to take off. Chris: He Jin, great to see you. Thanks for joining us on the show today. Heejin: Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris. Chris: Yeah, no worries. Hey, I have to admit I actually felt bit awkward after our conversation that I was not more clued up on OpenAI's dev day announcements. So I I dug into them and first of all, dots look incredible. I'm I'm really intrigued by that. I'm actually a Chromebook user as well, so they would like particularly appeal to me. And then I heard Heejin: Mm-hmm. Chris: that that is just one of twenty major announcements that came out, or or at least were announced all on on that day. So I was like blown away by the the pace of Change open AI. It must be amazing. Heejin: Yeah, it's it's really something when you're in the thick of it and you get to try it out obviously and just deprocess that happens l leading up to these launches. It's it's quite something. It's not it's like literally watching a rocket ship being built every single day. Chris: I can imagine. Well, one of the conversations of the theme today is about turning a side project into a role. And so I thought maybe a good starting point would be you actually just explaining a bit about your current role because as I understand it's quite different from the the standard SE role as it were. There's some overlap. But yeah, I would love to hear in your words a bit about what your role involves. Heejin: Yeah, absolutely. So my current role is Technically a solutions Engineer, but I have a special remit in the sense that I work with our International Expansion team to help launch offices in other countries. So I had the great privilege of launching first in Korea, Australia, India, and most recently Brazil. So it's A little bit of traditional SE work where you need that curiosity, you need that technical discipline, and you want to be able to explain concepts to customers. But I think the stakes are a little bit different in the sense that you are really looking to launch in a country, and part of that means landing really significant logos, what we call national treasures, working with the government, working with policymakers. helping out with events that are the face of open AI. So it's a very it's a really fun and very exciting role that's a little bit beyond the scope but of what I think traditional SCEs are are used to doing, what I was used to doing obviously, before I started this role. Chris: Yeah. And you mentioned quite a few countries or markets that you've helped launch. So just to help help the audience understand roughly how long have you been in this this this role? Heejin: Yeah, so to clarify, this is a rotation. so I started this role in June of twenty twenty-five and it it got extended to the end of this year. And a lot of that is because once you launch a country, you want to make sure that you're building the local team, leveling them up to make sure that they have the resources and they feel comfortable doing what they what they're doing, representing open AI and in that. country in that locale. So it's been yeah, it's been really fun. Chris: Amazing. I would love if we could take maybe w one country, like if we took Korea as an example, could you sort of bring to life for the audience maybe, you know, one of the activities that you were involved in that goes sort of above and beyond the standard S C role? Heejin: Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to these launches, it's actually quite interesting because there is obviously the standard customer work that we we do when we work with these marquee customers, but that also has to be bookended by country specific work. and one of the examples is when we were doing these meetings, we call them sprints for Korea. I noticed there was a running trend of Korean conglomerates as well as the government expounding on the need for Hosted models or local inference. Now, obviously, we don't offer that at OpenAI. And but we were at the cusp of launching our open source models and we wanted to prove that that could actually meet the stringent requirements. So having identified like kind of this need for sovereign AI, we actually thought if we could pr if we could show that our open source model could be fine-tuned to address the sovereign needs. That could be a great starting point and credibility with the conglomerates and the agencies that we're talking to. So with that decision, the team and I worked with internally as well as with external partners who are really keen on helping us out to create basically a fine-tuning cookbook to really tailor these open source models to the Korean context. And, you know, if you think about the typical LLM model, it's trained on, you know. all the world's data, but it tends to be pretty Anglocentric. So there was there was concern that you know, rightfully so, that it wasn't really adm adhering to kind of like the Korean preference or the Korean linguistics as well as some of the specifics that are native to the Korean language. So we actually showcased that with this fine-tuned model, you could actually do two things. One, address that need for both the locality But also address the need for, you know, our customers and agencies to host it in their infrastructure if that's what they wanted to do. And then I think one of the really exciting and humbling things about working at OpenAI is that you have the opportunity to work with some incredible partners, incredible external companies. So one of the companies that we worked with was a Korean chipmaker who actually ran this fine-tuned model in their in their infrastructure to validate that this is something that actually could be done and could go into production if the if if if that's what they wanted to do. Chris: Amazing. So if I understand correctly, you are still working with customers and in this case you're working with multiple Korean customers, but then you spot a trend that runs across those. And then really you're part of this really strategic project or initiative to work out, you know, how can we accelerate value within the market based on that common theme that you're seeing? It sounds like, you know, really cross functional work. You're working with product, you're working with external partners as well. Heejin: Yeah, yeah. And that's really the the really the fun part. It's also challenging, right? 'Cause you can't as much as I co as as much as I wish I could, I wish I could address every need of every customer, but it's just not possible. And you know, it's it's sometimes okay, what can we do to still earn the trust and show that we're capable? And I think that's you know, that's a key ingredient. I think all SCs kind of have that drive and that's not very that's not like something that only I have. I think that's very common to a lot of SEs. Chris: Yeah. And a project like that, presumably, you know, it takes a lot of time and effort and coordination and research working with those different teams. You're doing that alongside some level of deal work. You know, c is there any way you could give the audience a sense of like roughly how much your time is spent on those projects and initiatives and things outside of what we would consider the standard SE role? Heejin: Yeah, it's a good question. it is very different, country to country, this different day to day. I think initially when I was working when you're when I was launching the country, you know, the deal work was the country work because we were working with these very named, you know, large companies. And it so it took up a lot of it it took up a you know, kind of like ninety percent of my work was SC, traditional SC work. And I think what what ended up happening is as we started hiring and as we started kind of leveling up the people who are local. some of that shifted towards, okay, now instead of DSC work, what are what are some of the projects that are strategic that for for this country that HQ may not have insight into? Because HQ is an SF and they may not understand kind of like the niche needs of the Korean market that could be considered niche to to HQ, but it are are actually quite necessary to for us to succeed in the market. So I think When that when that kind of happened, I think the fluctu it fluctuated a little bit between like, you know, I was doing a lot of deal work, but I was actually s trying to spot what I could what I could like surface to HQ for some of the strategic initiatives. I can't really give you a like a specific breakdown because again, it kind of depends on the customer, it kind of depends on the country and it's all it almost depends on the day. But I I would say there is kind of an ebb and flow in terms of how much customer work I do and how much project work that I do that's a direct offshoot of speaking to these customers or spotting certain currents that I think would be should be surface to HQ. Chris: Yeah. And you alluded to the fact that, you know, as these markets mature, you start hiring people and onboarding people within the markets. Am I right in thinking some of your work is also helping onboard those new team members and establishing processes? 'Cause you you would be a an old timer by open AI standards, right? In these markets in particular, you're the first person there often. Is that a big part of the role? Heejin: It is a big part of the role. It's quite possibly one of the more humbling parts of the role because I think you know, having been a US employee for OpenAI, I I had all the support I needed. I could reach out to people and then you know doing being that person for these new countries is like, I am that person. I I there's a lot more stakes and I have to be very mindful in terms of how I help up level the new hires. Or even like in in terms of how we do deals together. So it is it is is a very enjoyable aspect of the role, but it's also quite humbling in the sense that I'm like, I have to you know, double, you know, check my eyes, dot my eyes and cross my T's twice, measure multiple times and cut once. So it's yes, it is a big part of it. It's also very humbling and I kind of feel like I I love it. And I hope everyone who h was hired or who I mentored are like, okay. They're they're great, by the way. So Chris: Amazing. Yeah, I d I definitely relate to that as well in that I've I've worked for American tech companies and there's definitely, you know, an an overall company culture, but then you tend to have a company c culture within regions like EMIA and then even within like offices or sub regions like the UK or Ireland. So it's it's really interesting, I imagine. I've I've mostly been part of the UK or the EMIA one, but for you having established a few of these offices, it must be quite cool to you know, be a part of that culture starting and witnessing those different cultures within the company. Heejin: It's really fun. Chris: Cool. So we've got a good sense of what your role looks like and quite different to the standard sort of solutions engineering role. We'd love to dig into how all this actually came about because it wasn't a role that you applied for when you first joined OpenAI, right? You joined in more of a standard role. So Heejin: Mm. Chris: talk us through the origin of like how this role came about. Heejin: Absolutely. So I was a standard SC, as you mentioned. I was working with American customers. I took I took time off. I took vacation to go to Korea because that's where I'm from. And the funny story is like all my friends are married with kids, so they don't want to spend time with me. They're like, I can't come out at like six o'clock on a Friday. So what I I was so bored that I reached out to that I reached out to work and said, I'm here. I might as well talk to customers. I don't like Korean, you know, Korean customers really enjoy FaceTime. And at that point we didn't have a Korean office or anyone Chris: Okay. Heejin: or or even I th or an entity. So I was like, I'll I'll just go talk to customers. so I started doing that. And then when I came back, not I think maybe like a week after I came back, I think the word got out that I I spoke Korean and I had done this. So somebody asked me if I could hop on a call with a very like a huge tech company in Korea and asked if we could just kind of like untangle some of the things that they were doing to our US account team. And that's really kind of where it snowballed. And then what I didn't realize at that point was there was this international team that was in charge of expanding into new markets and doing some of the activities that I mentioned earlier. So I think it just kind of got fr went from there to really Catching the eye of that team, and yeah, the rest is history. Chris: Yeah. And so y it sounds like well, it started with a holiday, but then after a holiday it turned into a side project, as it were. And then this more formalised team that's sort of doing this stuff i in a more formal capacity on a day to day basis got wind of it. Where did it go from there then? How did you take it from a side project into a formalised role? Or what was there a a formalised process? Talk us through what that looked like. Heejin: Yeah, there was a formalized process. I I did have to interview for the actual role to be on rotation and it was really like a standard interview, job interview. and I would say it it was really interesting and very exciting in the sense that I re I I actually had done this a similar thing for Korea and Australia while while I was at Slack. So it wasn't really like the motion and the travel wasn't what was was wasn't surprising. And I think we decided that okay, we're gonna start with you know, a six month rotation that ended up being a year rotation. Now it's a little bit longer than that. So it's yeah, there w there was a formal process that that happened when we they realized there was a need to open in Korea. because back then we Korea had the second highest usage of Chat GPT plus outside in in the world. not per capita, not per, you know. not for like paid users, just h h highest number of paid users for ChatGPT plus in the world and RIP to Sora, our video generation model, but it was number one in Sora usage in the world at that time. So there was Chris: wow. Heejin: yeah, so we had op OpenAI had definitely identified a need to really address that growing market. So it was really serendipitous in terms of both having done what I was doing, having done what I was doing as a side project. but also having that role open up because there was a need for it. Chris: Yeah, I I I think that's where a lot of these really interesting roles take off or are most successful because I I for one, you know, when I think back to my time at Slack, I worked on so many side projects that were to me really important. I found them really Heejin: Mm. Chris: interesting and they just didn't go anywhere. But then when you would occasionally do one that was really sort of I think of it as a Venn diagram of like the overlap between what you're interested in or what you're doing and what's important to the company. suddenly it was like not it was nothing to do with the quality of my work improving. It was just much more aligned to what was important to the company at that point in time. Then it just had way more impact and I was able to move into a more formalised role similar to this. So I think having that, like you said, the serendipity or or sort of proactively going after what are the things that are important to the business is really key in making these roles successful. Heejin: Yeah. I mean, Chris, I can't r I can't remember a side project you did that wasn't useful. So I I think you're kind of selling yourself short there. No, all all the things you did. I think I and I burn I really believe in this, but I think I don't think there's such I don't think there's any useless side projects. You know, I I think there's things that you do that may be filling the white space that may not get unrecognized. But I think as long as you learn something from it, And you are doing something because you believe there is a need, I don't see I don't there's no bad side project, in my opinion. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And and interestingly, Andrew Nikolich, who you'll you'll know we both work with, Heejin: Yeah, mm-hmm. Chris: on on his episode was chatting about this demo automation tool that he built that really originated from he described it as scratching an itch he had. He found this process in front of him really frustrating and he didn't really look that much to what the company was prioritizing at that point in time. It's just like if this is so painful for me, then other people must be feeling that. So sometimes that is one of the best ways to find the the most impactful work. Heejin: thousand percent. Chris: So you actually already mentioned the fact that you have done something similar at Slack and at Salesforce. I'm curious, is there a common thread beyond the opening intern international offices? Has it always been that or is it there something to do with the sort of nature of the work that that you enjoy and that has been common across those companies? Heejin: It it's a good question. I so I I didn't really think of what I was doing when I helped out with Korea or you know, when I was helping out with Australia when I was at Slack. I I kinda did it because it actually the Slack Korea help, exact same thing. I was on PTO, I was bored and then I reached out and said, Do you have any Slack customers that need a Korean speaker? So I went to go see those customers. And then, you know, people found out that I could speak Korean and they asked me to help hire in Korea. And again, same thing, same motion. for ANZ, yeah, I I think I actually it's funny you mentioned Andrew because I think when Andrew went on our pat leave, I came in to help out because we just didn't have enough people. but I think what I kind of realized is I really enjoy situations where there's no answer. Like no one's ever talked to these customers in Korea or we have these customers in ANZ that you know we have, you know, we've had we've done great or can't work for, but because they're s they're so thinly stretched, there's just not a way of continuing that motion, then we want to make sure to keep it warm, for example. so yeah, I I I can't say, and I'm not the kind of person who's like, I am this kind of person and I enjoy doing X, Y, and Z. I think it was more like there is a need. I'm interested, I'm available, I'm gonna go do it. so that's that was definitely what I the meant the mentality at Slack. What I didn't realize is how much that would teach me in Chris: Mm-hmm. Heejin: terms in terms of like not only working with different cultures and different you know you know, different languages and different markets, but it also helped me think of, okay, what is it that how can we impact a product in a way that's not that is very specific to this locale versus what we are building for in in in as in SF. Because if you're a PLG like Slack, product like growth company like Slack, you're you're building based on not only the needs, but the needs are actually coming from largely coming from, you know, Ang Anglo speaking countries. So I think that's what I thought that really found in fun is okay, this is great. And in spite of the fact that Slack was such an American product, it took off in Korea because people loved it. Yeah. People were having a great time, but they were also feeling kind of need for a more closer relationship with HQ because they had questions about the product that just couldn't be addressed by our our support teams, and just needed a local team. So there's yeah. Ambiguity I think is kind of fun. Chris: Yeah. I I think A lot of people will be listening to this and they'll say, I like ambiguity. I'm working on this side project that I like. "I want to do something different to the standard SE role" something that will give me an opportunity to to grow and have a bigger impact. But it's not all rosy, right? Like there are downsides to doing this type of role or risks that you need to mitigate. I'd love to hear in your experience, now having done it, at a couple of different companies, what is what are some of the things people should watch out for as they look to convert a side project into a role. Heejin: I would say if you are the kind of person who takes great great pride in your work, and I think we all do because we're SEs, I It is very, very hard to have your baby called ugly, which will happen a thousand times over. So I I have personally learned to not be precious about anything I build. which is why I think like there are no bad side projects. I if I could enumerate the amount of things I built at OpenAI for these launches, for these customers. that went nowhere. I I think this podcast would be like three hours long. So I won't do that. But I think along the way, I was just like, yeah, okay, I I built this with my mindset, with my thoughts, with what I thought was right. And and obviously with the help with codex, but it's really not what the customer needs. So I I so I think a tough pill to swallow is throwing away really good work. You know, like I I think the there's the concept of creating these mandalas, these beautiful sand drawings that take people that take these artists or or I think they're monks, technically, like days to create these beautiful pieces of work and they all wipe it away. I I would have that mindset that it's it's like, don't be precious about it. Chris: That sounds so stressful. Heejin: Yeah, yeah. And and it's and honestly it's it's fine. I think I that was a tough pill to swallow when I first started. now I'm just like, okay, I'll I'll start over. That's fine. And the second thing I would say is more tactical, more practical, it's it's a lot. It's time zones are a lot, travel's a lot, so it's it's not you know, they take very good care of me, obviously, but if you if you value family time or if you value being with your your your children or your with your partner, it's probably not something that's gonna be it's it's probably not gonna be that rewarding because, you know, you're like you're you're traveling ninety percent of the time. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And you had mentioned, you know, you're still doing some of the SC work alongside these projects and that's often how these things will start, right? People will be doing the standard role and they work on these side projects. Have you got any advice for people how like the the trap, A trap I imagine people could fall into is they suddenly just end up doing two jobs. or like way more work. Is there well yeah, what are your thoughts on that and how to mitigate that? Heejin: Yeah, I would say just Be very, very honest about with yourself and with your manager, whoever is sponsoring you, on scope, what it means to succeed, and be very honest about what you need to take off. And I think you need to have a very clear line of communication in terms of your workload, your sanity, your health. But also just being very honest, like saying, hey, I think this work is strategic enough that I need to take X, Y, and Z off. It could be, you know, maybe I can't answer a security questionnaire, or maybe I can't, you know, help configure EKM because you're helping out with an actual with with a government like sponsor their AI initiative. I would be very, very honest about that. I would have also I started creating a tracker of what I was doing. for that week and what I took off and I was just sending that to my manager and saying, here's what's happening. And I think that's really it's really important because I think the I think like SEs as a when they start out and even as you kind of are a little bit more tenured, you want to do everything. Because I think SCs are by nature people who want to who want the best for their customers, who are I hate to say this. I think a lot of us are people pleasers. I certainly am. So I wanted to do everything and it just it's just not tenable and it's not good for it's definitely not good for you. It's definitely not good for your job and it's definitely not good for your customer. Chris: Yeah, yeah. That definitely resonates with me. I remember when I first moved into an overlay role, I was so used to the pattern of deal cycles, working with customers, that then suddenly you've got this blank slate and you're working on projects that, you know, in some cases you're defining. I remember this lingering sense of guilt, thinking like, Am I work am I working? Is what I'm doing working? Should I be with customers? Should I d should I be doing all the customer stuff and this? And it does take some adjustment to quite different type of work or nature of work or schedule of work. Heejin: trust me, when I don't talk to customers I I always feel like, What am I doing? Chris: Yeah. That's one of the things actually that I think is nice about your role because I do feel like the moment you step away from front lines and being customer facing, you do, you know, almost immediately start to feel that muscle wear away and you've you become Heejin: Mm. Chris: conscious of am I detached from the field and the reality of what customers are using the product for, objections that customers are bringing up and that sort of thing. Heejin: Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's you just it's it's like anything. You have to train that muscle to like take things off. especially like like you know, when we were both D S E's at at SLAC, I think we had to be very conscious of what we were taking on and what we weren't taking on. Chris: Yeah. So I'd like to move to some quick fire questions, although don't feel the need to to rush them, but these are sort of a standard set of questions. And Heejin: Okay. Yeah? Chris: I'm gonna start with I'd love to know what you feel has been the most meaningful move in your career. It could be between companies or within companies to a particular role. Heejin: Yeah, I'll I'll I'll leave two things. One is leaving Slack because you know, I've been at Slack forever. I went through the direct public offering, I went to I went through the acquisition and I was in a very comfortable spot, but I think I needed something to really challenge me. I wanted to do something very different. So when this role came about, the open AI S C role came about, I had I think at that point I knew what ChatGPT was, and I'll be very honest about this. I I knew what ChatGPT was, but I I wasn't by no means an AI expert in yeah, in in twenty twenty four. And I I just l I had to embrace the ambiguity. I had to start from the beginning, and I just realized that actually learning is fun. And I I said this once to or you know, Karishma back back at Slack. I I think there is this in innate feeling for me that I really enjoy feeling stupid. you know, for for a little bit, not not all the time. I really like I really enjoy feeling kind of dumb and ha feeling like I need to be taught things. and that's really where I think that happened. And opening I and I I feel that every single day. Trust me, I I'm like I have imposter syndrome every single day. I learn new things every single day. So it's it's a great place for me. That was not a rapid fire answer, but I I will yeah. Chris: Yeah. No, it's it's exactly what no, it's perfect. It's exactly what I'm looking for. And yeah, I think that like discomfort is a good good, you know, indicator that you're growing, right? That you're you're you're learning new things. Heejin: Yes, yes. And I I really enjoy it. I I like feeling like I I can learn things from other people. Chris: One of the things that is common across a lot of these AI native companies and in particular, you know, popularized by the labs, are these really sort of general titles like member of technical staff or or GTM Heejin: Yeah. Yep. Chris: and I I'd love to know how that felt moving from a from a title like distinguished solutions engineer. And then you mentioned it was very humbling and you had to learn new things, but like did that feel weird as well? Heejin: No, i if anything it felt right because like I'm just a member of Go to Market. Okay, great. Like no one's gonna expect anything of me. versus like a distinguished SC role. No, I I think it's I I personally think it's it's great. I know that you know, again with ambiguity and I think titles are one of the markers of individuals who prefer non ambiguous or very distinct roles. But I I I don't care. I don't really care about the title as long as I am able to do the work that I truly enjoy, which is what I'm what I'm doing. And it when when the title's ambiguous, you kind of get to craft certain roles, which is really important when it comes to cross-functional work. If you are, I think if you are a distinguished so-and-so, it it just gives the impression that you are this person who is doing very specific SC things. I think by being called member of Go to Market, They kinda don't know what to expect. So you show up with a persona or you show up with an agenda that's appropriate for that time. So I actually really like the fact that labs have no distinct titles. Chris: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Me too. I think it's been a refreshing change. I I always encourage people don't get attached to a title. You know, really look at the description of the work because the SE role, for instance, looks very different at a lot of AI native Heejin: Mm-hmm. Chris: companies to what it does at a traditional SaaS company. Some people are just sort of applying for that role because it's what they've done before is the title they've carried before, but actually not really thinking, is that the nature of the work that I want to do? Heejin: thousand percent. And there's nothing wrong with caring about the title. It's just nah it's just not me. Chris: Yeah. I would love to hear, Eugene, an example of a failure that you've had in your career and and what it taught you. Heejin: my god, where do I start? it's gonna be longer than the st stuff I built. I think a failure I've had is I tend to kind of overbuild, over-engineer stuff, and it's not really what is needed for that moment. there's no nothing wrong with having a very detailed, very customized demo, but it's not always a happy path. And I think What it has taught me is whatever story you're crafting around it has to be malleable and flexible enough that if you're overbuilding something or if you're underbuilding something, it has to survive that demo. and I think the other thing is I I mean this look, I've had so many career failures. So like again, that could be a separate episode, but we're we're not here for that. I think the other thing is just be very like being very being Humble is like huge, especially in labs, especially in these companies where everyone everyone knows more than I do. and I I it's not that it was a failure, but I think I had the pitfall of thinking, okay, I can do this really well, and realizing actually it doesn't mean that applies to an AI company versus somewhere like a SaaS, traditional SaaS company where the answers are always there. The answers are your product can do X, Y, and Z and here's the established ROI. Whereas when it comes to some of these labs, it's it's that's a little that's again very it's ambiguous and we're still trying to come up with ROI and measurable value. So yeah, like take it I I would say, yeah, having a sense like be always be humble. Like I think that's yeah, that's I think that's good advice for anyone, but especially in this in this in this industry. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. And I think everyone has probably had that person that they've worked with where they always bang on about, this is how we did it at my previous company and I imagine Heejin: Yeah. Yep. Chris: that's probably, you know, even even worse or like goes down even worse at one of the labs 'cause like you said, the nature of the work is just so different. Heejin: It's very dangerous. Don't do that. Chris: So speaking of being at the labs, and I don't need you to go into the the specifics, but you've Heejin: Mm-hmm. Chris: sort of seen what the SE role looks like in established tech companies. We didn't really go into your career history, but you've worked at, you know, the likes of SAP. So really, you know, traditional, you've seen a lot of different sales motions. I'd love to get a sense for, you know, looking forward, how do you think what what do you think is the most significant way that AI is going to impact the the SE role? Heejin: I think the good thing is the AI will make RFPs, security questionnaires a lot easier. my god. And I think that's just I think when we when I started working at Slack, just the amount of time, the amount of hours we spent on security questionnaires is comical, right? And like we don't yeah. so I think a lot of the friction laden necessary but painful work I think will become a lot easier. So that's that I think that's great. I think what's really interesting is as SCs, the role of the SC will be less focused on the technical value proof. I mean that will obviously exist, but I think a lot of it will also be focused on kind of detecting the blockers as well as human relationships that is really deciding the next step. And I think we all do this to a certain extent, but I think traditionally the role of an SC has been, you are, I I mean, if if I'm I I'm maybe exaggerating a little bit, but you know, we're sometimes referred to as technical salespeople. but I think the role of the SC will be amplified and even like expand a little bit in the sense that if for AI to be successful in our customers, it's not simply about the initial win, right? It's not about the demo the executive briefing and assign PO order. It's really about adoption. So as yeah, so as SCs, I think we have we'll have the unique responsibility of not only doing some of that work, but also really monitoring it for success after it's been adopted and ensuring that it actually gets deployed and taking that back to you know, your taking back to the company and saying, here's what we notice is happening, here's what we notice is working well, working not well. So I think in some ways the role of the SC and I think what we traditionally like to call customer success will be a little more a little more blurred. That's not to say like we're coming for their job. So I think it's more like in the role of an SC will be very you know, I think it will be very important to really monitor for signs of success and put that back into the motions for future future customers and future cycles. Chris: Yeah, yeah, makes sense. And I definitely think, I mean, you already saw a bit of that with the shift to consumption based pricing, even in non AI companies, right? There's th th the vendor has more skin in the game to make sure things are successful post sales. And so, you know, having a single person accountable both pre sales and post sales, or at least being a bit more involved in post sales to make Heejin: Mm-hmm. Chris: sure that what was promised or talked about is is sort of lived up to, I think, is a welcome change. Heejin: Yeah, the days of just I've done the demo. Bye, is it's gone. Chris: Yeah. And is there a piece of advice you already mentioned around the importance of of being humble, particularly in these AI native companies, but is there a another piece of advice that you would perhaps give to to anyone listening to the show? Heejin: yeah, I I I would say a couple things. so I think what's really interesting is when it comes to taking side projects and making it something that you want to work on, I start small. I I you know, I didn't start out by saying, I'm gonna go launch Korea, right? Find a small problem and align it with your skill set. for me, like I I'll be very honest, my skill set was speaking Korean and And knowing how to translate OpenAI's narrative to Koreans. And I think just kind of building on that because I have I had the drive to like keep doing it is what led to the side project becoming this rotation. so so I would say start small, align with your manager, make sure they it is that that work is being recognized or it's it's being at least it's on it's on know it's on the record as something that you are doing even if it's not in your job description. So definitely do that. I think the other thing that we kind of forget, especially in the days of AI, is critical human thinking, I think is more important than ever. And I would say practice saying what you know, what you want to present, what you're and you know, challenge your assumptions. Kind of like When when I was in college, we used to do this where we had these precepts where our TA would ask us, why did you come to that conclusion? And what led Chris: Mm-hmm. Heejin: to what what what proof do you have that that is a conclusion you came to? I would I I it's and it's not to say do that in front of your customers, but I think think about that. Think about how if you're going to a customer and you have a hypothesis of how what you're selling or what you're proposing is going to change their business, can well how can you support it. Hug. What assumptions are you making that need to be challenged? And I think, you know, the whole idea behind this isn't to really negate AI. If anything, I think AI is a great sounding board when it comes to challenging these assumptions. But I think having that critical thinking skills and going into a meeting, going into an opportunity with your your your thought and your assumptions and your hypothesis is thoroughly challenged by your human your human brain as well as your AI brain, I think is is important. And I I try to do this a lot. I actually read more now than ever. I read a lot of like paper books than I used to. I could just ask Chat GPT about it, but I like like to like think about it. So I think it's something that we should all try to do a little bit more. Yeah. Chris: Yeah. I love that. I always felt like our colleagues in value consulting or value engineering did a really good job of that because they're almost always Heejin: Absolutely. Chris: walking into a conversation where everything they say is gonna get interrogated. And so they Heejin: Exactly. Yeah. Chris: just build that muscle of needing to be able to explain exactly, you know, okay, you don't agree with the number. Well here here's my maths. Like which part don't you agree with? And it's almost like we need to be thinking like that much more broadly. Heejin: Yeah, I mean assume everything you're gonna say is be called out on or be challenged or somebody is gonna tell you that's bullshit. I I that's some that's like a exercise I I try to do before every customer meeting. I wouldn't say it's like the best thing for your mental health, but it's yeah. But it's it's Yes, it is. Yeah. Chris: But it's good for objection handling, that's the important thing. Okay. And a lot of people will look at your role and already think that is the dream role, but I'm I I always find it interesting to ask people if you weren't doing the role that you're doing today at OpenAI, what would your dream role look like? Heejin: okay. So I'll tell you the work appropriate answer, then I'll tell you like my like personal answer. so the work appropriate answer I think isn't too far from what I'm currently doing. I I think what I want to do is, you know, build cool demos, have tell it on stage and you know, lie like liaise with, you know, executives to ensure that we are bringing AI to their to their needs and meeting that we're where you need us. and I think Part of the reason I really enjoy my role. There's a men, there's many reasons, obviously, is you can the the narratives are astounding. Like the way that you can transform a like a thousand like a 600-year-old mining business using our models, it's it's just unheard of. And I think that's but that's a double-edged sword, right? Because the the negative of that is we have no proof point. But the positive is that. It's really really interesting, right? How how how many jobs can you say, like we're solving a problem that hasn't been thought of before? Or we're solving a problem that has been around for centuries. So I think continuing to do that do that is definitely something I would love to love to do. Again, I know we're talking about not being obsessed with titles. I don't know what that job would be called, but so lots of building Chris: And it's Heejin: yeah. Chris: one thing, sorry to interrupt there, but you mentioned around the the demo in particular as a sort of format there. I find that interesting because there's a sort of live topic in the industry around, you know, particularly these consumption based companies and a and AI native companies. People want to pilot it, they want to put users in, like they want to see more proof before they commit. Heejin: Mm-hmm. Chris: And does that mean the death of the demo? But I've heard this in f quite a few conversations now that actually the demo is still alive and kicking and really that skill of being able to do the storytelling and inspire customers and get them excited about the future state. The demo is still a super important part of that. Heejin: Yeah, I completely agree. I think yeah, I think demos I think Eric Eric Glick probably said it, but I think demos are probably more important than ever. Cause Chris: Mm-hmm. Heejin: I so again, personal opinion, but I think a bad demo is a generic demo. Like yes, there are times we're gonna have to do a generic Chat GT one on one demo, or a generic AI demo. But a good demo is one where a customer has tried something and is challenging you to Build something that is that they couldn't solve with a POC or in a pilot. And then you come out and say, actually, this is how we would approach that problem. So I think demos are gonna change. again, not not you know, not shitting on the Harbor Cruise demos. We still need those, but I think the nature of the demos are going to be much more informed by customers who are using it on a day to day basis, which I think is a a lot more exciting than here's what we think of your industry kind of demos. Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree there. And sorry I cut you off. I definitely wanna hear Heejin: No, no, no. Chris: the the non work answer as well. Heejin: yeah, so the non work answer, yeah. I think if I if I wasn't working, I would make memes all day long. Chris: Any particular theme or Heejin: Just just like random memes. I I love I don't know if you if you are if you heard of this raccoon in Seattle. Like it has like a short spine, but it it's called Chris: Okay. Heejin: the raccoon's called Jimothy. So there's all these like memes about Jimothy the raccoon. I I I just like I just like weird stuff. and I don't know. I I think it's because I have outside of work, I don't have much of a personality, so I try to make up for my sense of humor with memes. yeah, and I love the You know, like the traditional like this is a very old one, for those of you who are like much younger, but there's w the meme of Homer hiding Homer Simpson hiding into the bushes. Chris: yep. Heejin: yeah. So I I don't know. I think if I could just do that full time, that would maybe like if I wasn't working, that's probably what I would do. Chris: Hijin, I think anyone who listens to this episode would disagree that you don't have a personality. I think that's come through very strongly. And yeah, I'll be watching your LinkedIn to see if Meme Creator is the the next role that you take on. But Heejin: That is yeah. Chris: Huijin, it it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for for taking the time and sharing your insights. I've learned so much, it's been a an amazing conversation. Heejin: Yeah, thank you for having me, Chris. I've been a big fan of yours since Slack, so this is a huge honor for me. Chris: Likewise. All the best. Thanks, Eugene. Heejin: Thank you.