Latest / In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch / Eylon Levy

Transcript

Eylon Levy · In These Times with Rabbi Ammi Hirsch

0:01
I'm Rabbi Ami Hirsch of the Stephen Wise Free Synagogue in New York and
0:05
you're listening to In These Times.
0:11
Watching Israel's war with Hamas unfold from his living room, Eylon Levy was
0:15
surprised by the government's ineptitude in the international media, so he
0:20
decided to volunteer his expertise.
0:23
On day three of the war, I said, I have a background in
0:27
media, so I'm going to do media.
0:28
I set up a pile of books in my living room, put the laptop on top, and I
0:31
tweeted, I'm a former advisor to the president, and I give media interviews.
0:35
Within a week, Eylon, who just that summer had been protesting the government in
0:39
the streets of Tel Aviv, found himself working as an official spokesperson
0:43
for the Prime Minister's office.
0:46
In this podcast, he describes his time in government.
0:50
While militarily, Israel is succeeding dramatically and turned around the
0:54
colossal failures of October 7.
0:57
In the information war, Israel and her supporters in the Diaspora are struggling.
1:02
Israel has simply abandoned the information battlefield.
1:05
It's not fighting it.
1:06
Now, again as a private citizen, Eylon is refusing to cede
1:10
ground to Israel's enemies.
1:13
That's why he started the Israeli Citizen Spokesperson's Office to
1:16
make the case for Israel abroad.
1:18
And to explain to Israelis why they need to take the information war seriously.
1:31
Eylon, thank you for coming on today, and welcome to In These
1:35
Times.
1:36
Hello,, Rav Ami, it's good to be here.
1:39
met, but, uh, I've met you online and in various, uh, media outlets for a
1:43
long, long time and admire your work.
1:46
Thank you.
1:46
We haven't had the pleasure, but we'll have to fix it.
1:49
I'll be in Israel, uh, in a few months.
1:52
Perfect.
1:52
You'll have to come on my podcast as well.
1:54
I will do for sure.
1:55
So tell us about your own background.
1:57
You are now a co founder of the Israeli Citizen Spokesperson's Office.
2:04
That is a completely private initiative.
2:07
It's not connected to any formal establishment or governmental office.
2:12
And that's after Working, I think, for about six months in
2:16
the prime minister's office.
2:18
So tell us, how did you get to the prime minister's office?
2:21
What led to your departure from the prime minister's office and to
2:24
your commitment to establish this completely private initiative?
2:29
You want the long answer or the short answer?
2:33
Listen, I want our listeners to understand enough of what you've gone
2:38
through so that they draw conclusions.
2:40
So
2:41
so make yourself a cup of tea and buckle up.
2:43
Here's the story.
2:44
Um, when this war started, I was a private citizen.
2:47
I had previously worked as a TV news anchor.
2:51
I worked with President Holtzog for the first two years of his
2:54
presidency as foreign media advisor.
2:56
But I was taking a break over the summer of 2023.
3:00
summer in which, like most of Tel Aviv, I participated regularly in
3:05
the protests against the government.
3:07
On Kaplan Street, in Tel Aviv, every Matzei Shabbos.
3:10
And if you had told me when I was there holding up a protest sign that
3:15
I would find myself within a year as a government spokesman and then a former
3:19
government spokesman, I would have asked you, when are the elections happening?
3:22
It would have been
3:25
because the protests were essentially anti government
3:27
protests over the judicial reform,
3:30
Over the judicial reform, over the presence of, uh, Ben Gurion Smodrich
3:34
in the military, over what the ultra orthodox parties were doing to our
3:38
country and its liberal character.
3:40
Huge protests against this government.
3:42
you consider yourself a liberal?
3:44
Do you define yourself in those categories?
3:47
Liberal means something a little bit different in the United
3:49
States, but yeah, absolutely.
3:51
I see myself as part of liberal Israeli society.
3:54
It would have been unthinkable.
3:56
But then the unthinkable happened.
3:57
We woke up at 6.
3:58
30 in the morning on October 7th to find that we had been invaded by terrorists,
4:03
by death squads sent in to massacre and kidnap everyone they could find.
4:07
And Israeli society kicked into action, and there was just a total
4:10
mobilization of the home front, everyone doing whatever they could.
4:13
People were organizing civilian kitchens to make food for soldiers
4:17
and driving down to take people to bases and help evacuated families.
4:22
Everyone just wanted to help.
4:23
And on day three of the war, I said, I have a background in media.
4:28
So I'm going to do media.
4:29
I set up a pile of books in my living room, put the laptop on top, uh,
4:33
took a bottle of protein powder, barely been to the gym since the
4:36
war started, put a lamp on top.
4:38
And I a former advisor to the president.
4:40
And I give media interviews.
4:40
I did that for day three, four, five of the war.
4:46
And then on day five, I got a phone call from a well known publisher in
4:51
Israel, Rotem Sela, who runs the Sela Meir publishing house, that recently
4:57
published Netanyahu's autobiography.
4:59
And he said, Eylon, the prime minister's office doesn't have
5:02
a foreign media department.
5:05
I'm setting one up.
5:06
I'm building a team of civilian volunteers and we're going to give
5:11
backup to the Prime Minister's office in dealing with foreign media.
5:14
Do you want to be involved?
5:16
said, doing what?
5:18
said, what can you do?
5:20
I said, I've been giving interviews for the last two days from my living room.
5:22
He said, do you want to do that from the Prime Minister's office?
5:25
I said, Rotim, you know, I was at the protest against
5:26
the Prime Minister last week.
5:28
He said, I know.
5:28
I don't care.
5:29
I said, good.
5:30
I know.
5:30
I don't care either because we're in a fight for our lives now.
5:33
On the Friday after the war started, I went to the Curia and saw Ambassador
5:38
Mark Regev, who had come back from retirement to give TV interviews.
5:43
He was the ambassador to the UK.
5:46
Ambassador is London and previously Netanyahu's spokesman.
5:49
He said, Eylon, I'm so happy to see you.
5:50
We're drowning in requests for interviews.
5:52
I want you to watch a few of my interviews and from tomorrow you're on your own.
5:56
I said, in what capacity, he paused, put his finger and thumb on his chin and said,
6:04
an Israeli government spokesman, let's go with that, that's your title, good luck.
6:08
And so it was the following day that I went on TV in a suit and
6:11
tie, never having met the Prime Minister, whom I still have not met.
6:16
Not having spoken to a single government minister, but speaking from the defense
6:20
ministry in Tel Aviv with a sign behind me that said prime minister's office going
6:24
on international television to make the case for Israel during this war, because
6:28
we understood only three things matter.
6:30
Hamas has to go down, the hostages have to go home and Hezbollah has to go away.
6:33
Those three things remain absolutely true.
6:36
And so without any process of due diligence or vetting, or proper briefing.
6:43
was part of the civilian mobilization that just put politics aside on October
6:48
7th and said, we don't have time right now for Jewish wars and infighting.
6:53
We are under attack and we have to win this war because otherwise
6:57
we're in deep, deep trouble.
6:58
Uh, and that's the surreal story of how a former anti government protester.
7:03
In a week, became a spokesman for the government.
7:07
not how things should work in a normal country.
7:09
It was the best and worst of Israel.
7:12
Okay, so you, you spend how many months doing that?
7:16
Around five and a half.
7:18
And did you decide, uh, you had enough or, uh, did others decide that for you?
7:23
No, I got pushed out.
7:25
I was forced to resign.
7:26
Who pushed you out?
7:27
I, uh, there's some rumors that the prime minister's wife pushed you out.
7:31
The UK foreign secretary pushed you out or in, or lobbied for you to leave.
7:36
In, I think it was January, Israeli media reported that the prime
7:40
minister's wife wanted to have me removed from my position because she
7:44
discovered that I'd been protesting against the government before the war.
7:48
I've never spoken to the prime minister's wife, but I have.
7:52
put it diplomatically, no reason to think those reports were false.
7:57
After I got back from the United States at the beginning of March, I
8:02
was informed that I'd been suspended.
8:06
And the official reason was that the British Foreign Office had inquired
8:12
why I was being critical of the Foreign Secretary, David Cameron, on Twitter.
8:18
The Foreign Secretary had said that Israel needs to do more to let in aid.
8:23
And I had replied that there are no capacity restrictions at the
8:27
Israeli crossings, and if they send more trucks, we'll let them in.
8:31
The British clearly didn't like a lowly government spokesman having
8:35
the chutzpah to respond to the Foreign Secretary on Twitter.
8:39
but anyway, that was the, that was the excuse for which I was suspended.
8:43
But then it became very clear to me that that really wasn't the full
8:46
story because three weeks later, I still wasn't able to get a meeting
8:51
with anyone at the Prime Minister's office to try to talk things over.
8:55
Uh, officials in the Prime Minister's office started briefing against me
8:59
to the media, and I saw on TV the headline that a decision had been made.
9:04
To, uh, fire me.
9:06
And so I was essentially left with no choice.
9:08
I was put in a position where they didn't want to fire me because it would have
9:11
been extremely unpopular domestically.
9:14
They couldn't bring me back.
9:17
I was forced to resign and said that I was resigning a way that we would
9:23
continue to fight this from civil society.
9:27
And I'll say one thing actually about this experience that I haven't
9:29
spoken about publicly before the way that the prime minister's office.
9:37
handled my departure in what was essentially a political hijab, okay, did
9:43
immense damage to the state of Israel because the headlines that were generated
9:51
led people to believe that I had been forced out because I must have lied.
9:58
to the foreign secretary about humanitarian aid in Gaza.
10:03
No official explanation was ever given.
10:07
Israel didn't use the opportunity to reply to the British and
10:10
say, thank you very much for the opportunity to clarify our position.
10:15
There are no restrictions on how much aid can go into Gaza.
10:18
Him is how much has gone in.
10:20
Here's how you can send more, you know, thank you for giving
10:23
us an opportunity to clarify.
10:25
We'll give him a slap on the wrist.
10:26
Maybe he shouldn't be tweeting at world leaders, but nothing to see here.
10:29
Let's move on.
10:30
They hung me out to dry.
10:32
And they hung me out to dry in a way that generated headlines that
10:35
did damage to the state of Israel.
10:38
Can I ask you about that, uh, humanitarian aid?
10:40
Yeah.
10:41
It's still a matter of high controversy, uh, and every day we're hearing
10:45
not only from, uh, media, but from government spokespeople that not
10:49
enough aid is getting into Gaza.
10:51
What's the real picture?
10:53
At any given moment, there are hundreds of trucks worth of
10:56
aid piling up at Kerem Shalom.
10:58
After Israel has processed them, inspected them, let them into Gaza.
11:02
But the UN hasn't been picking up.
11:04
The problem has never been getting aid into Gaza.
11:08
It's getting it around Gaza.
11:11
And that's because it's a war zone, and Hamas is hijacking aid,
11:14
siphoning some for itself, and selling the rest on the black market.
11:18
So why are they, why is Israel constantly being blamed for not providing enough aid?
11:23
I mean, just look at the numbers.
11:25
Over a million tons of aid have entered Gaza since Hamas started this
11:29
war, on board over 53, 000 trucks.
11:33
Israel has in fact added crossings since the beginning of the war.
11:38
Not only Kerem Shalom, but also New gates in the north, airdrops,
11:44
and an access route by sea.
11:47
Israel has repeatedly told allies, send as much aid as you want, we will let it in.
11:52
But look who they're getting their information from.
11:54
From all the NGOs have never really condemned Hamas.
12:00
Never held it accountable.
12:02
it's because they agree with the Palestinian narrative.
12:05
And the Palestinian cause.
12:07
And they themselves are part of this information war against Israel.
12:12
I must tell you, Eylona, it's a matter of deep frustration here in the West,
12:16
uh, because, you know, the impression is Israelis are not letting in enough
12:21
aid, and that's being extended then into an argument that they want to starve
12:25
the population and so on and so forth.
12:26
And what you're telling us, and you have direct information on this,
12:30
what you're telling us is Israel is letting in as much aid as the
12:34
international community wants to send in.
12:36
And, uh, And
12:38
Yes,
12:39
it is just so deeply frustrating to have the different
12:42
impression going on in the West.
12:44
but it's not getting shifted around inside Gaza.
12:47
That's the problem.
12:48
Okay?
12:50
UNRWA is a Hamas front.
12:52
It's allowed Hamas to steal aid, siphon it off, hasn't said anything about it.
12:58
So Israel tried other ways.
12:59
It tried to activate the Gazan private sector.
13:03
Until it found out how much Hamas was stealing by taking commission from it.
13:09
There's talk now maybe of allowing in private military
13:12
contractors to distribute the aid.
13:15
Aid is rotting in the sun because the UN isn't picking it up and
13:18
it's always easier to blame Israel than to take responsibility for
13:23
not doing their job properly.
13:25
Israel approved the UN bringing in dozens more trucks into Gaza.
13:31
They didn't order the trucks.
13:32
You to do the distribution inside Gaza.
13:35
They're struggling to distribute the aid and they're blaming it on Israel instead.
13:40
Look, the fact we're talking about aid going in through Israel's crossings
13:44
is itself absurd because Israel's obligations under international law are
13:49
to facilitate the provision of aid by third parties as long as Hamas isn't
13:53
hijacking it and it is hijacking it.
13:55
Feeding Gaza is not Israel's responsibility.
13:58
There is also a border crossing with Egypt, which decided to shut it.
14:02
And so it's incredibly frustrating that people will blame Israel rather
14:05
than the terrorist organization that is hijacking aid, selling it
14:09
at a premium to people inside Gaza.
14:12
One of the big problems has been criminal gangs.
14:15
Looting the trucks sometimes to get the cigarettes that
14:17
have been smuggled inside them.
14:20
By the way, I think the UN published a report a while ago explaining that
14:24
one of the obstacles to delivering aid is the breakdown of law and order.
14:29
What that means, you know, between the lines, is that the Hamas regime is no
14:33
longer providing protection that there is looting of trucks and an effective
14:39
solution hasn't been found for that.
14:41
So instead, as always, it's easier to scapegoat Israel.
14:44
Uh, even though Israel lets in as much aid as the international community
14:48
sends, if it gets to the crossings doesn't have contraband on it, let in.
15:01
Let me ask you, um, what's, what's your general sense of
15:07
the mood nowadays in Israel?
15:10
The mood is anxious in Israel.
15:12
Israel is not a country that's built for long wars.
15:15
And we've been in this crisis for a year now.
15:18
a bit like COVID.
15:19
Uh, everyone thought it would be over in a few weeks and it's become our reality.
15:24
And what began as a.
15:27
Hamas attack on Israel, the barbaric October 7th massacre, the taking of
15:32
250 hostages, become a regional war in which Israel is fighting for its
15:38
life against the Iranian regime and its proxy armies on seven fronts.
15:43
People around the world don't realize that on any given day we can
15:46
have incoming rocket attacks from four or five different directions.
15:51
This morning, I jumped out of bed because of a Hezbollah missile attack
15:56
on Tel Aviv that sent millions of people running into their shelters.
16:00
We have drone attacks from the Houthis in Yemen.
16:03
Every day, the security forces are thwarting terror attacks
16:09
from the West Bank, Gaza.
16:10
Of course, Hamas is still fighting and holding onto hostages.
16:14
Attacks from the Iranian militias in Syria, Iraq.
16:17
And so what the Iranian regime is trying to do is, is wage a war of
16:21
attrition that is trying to grind down the people in this country and make
16:25
ordinary life here impossible because they're playing a very long game.
16:29
Israeli society is strong, it's resilient, but, but there's also
16:33
a sort of a steely weariness about still being stuck in this situation.
16:38
On the other hand, a lot of strength and defiance.
16:40
because Israelis understand what's at stake in this war and that we really
16:44
do have national interests and a strong sense of collective purpose.
16:49
Uh, and that we really are fighting for something important, but, um,
16:52
you know, of course the whole world wants this problem to go away.
16:55
And so do we, but we understand that the problems won't go away until
16:57
the threats go away and we don't want to have to deal with them.
17:01
But, um, But we're having to do it.
17:03
So mindfully alone that prophecy is always risky, especially about the future.
17:09
Do you have a sense, do you want to take a, uh, leap and give us your
17:14
sense of what is likely to unfold over the next three, six, nine months?
17:18
Look, Israel's achievements against the Iranian axis have been Uh,
17:24
the Hamas terror regime is no longer an organized military.
17:29
It doesn't have an ability to fire missiles at will at Israel.
17:34
We thought that by this point in the war, we'd have buildings falling
17:37
down in Tel Aviv from Hezbollah in Lebanon, and it isn't happening as a
17:40
result of decapitating their entire leadership, getting terrorists off
17:44
the battlefield, targeting their facilities with incredible precision.
17:49
Israel has significantly degraded terrorist threats on its borders.
17:54
And the question now is what happens with that?
17:56
Okay, when Hamas and Hezbollah are on their knees, Is the world going
18:01
to help them back up to their feet?
18:03
is there an understanding that in order to preserve peace and prosperity
18:07
in the Middle East, those Israeli military achievements need to be
18:11
codified, permanent, otherwise we're going to end up in the same cycle.
18:16
If Sinua's successor takes power in Gaza, Hezbollah is allowed to creep up
18:22
back to Israel's northern border because UN peacekeepers continue to do nothing.
18:28
clock will only start ticking towards the next round.
18:31
We are increasingly finding ourselves in direct collision with the Iranian
18:35
regime, which is behind all these proxy armies surrounding Israel.
18:39
And again, it's a question about how the rest of the world is going to act
18:43
if the rest of the world is serious about containing Iranian aggression.
18:49
we will see the Iranian empire continue to be rolled back.
18:53
If we see pressure on Israel to allow Hamas, Hezbollah and the Iranian regime
18:58
to regroup, rearm and plot the next October 7th massacre, then we're going
19:02
to be in a, in a negative trajectory.
19:05
It's not just a question about how Israel is going to act, how
19:08
its enemies are going to act.
19:09
It's about how our allies, how the rest of the world is going to act, uh, and whether
19:13
they're going to put pressure on Israel to return to the reality of October 6th.
19:19
take serious action to correct the mistakes that led to October 7th.
19:24
And that, that's at most a 50 50 proposition.
19:28
The international allies have never demonstrated the kind of commitment
19:34
in collaboration with Israel that would prevent, for example,
19:38
Hezbollah from returning to the border or Hamas reconstituting.
19:41
Maybe the events of the last year have stiffened the spine of some
19:45
of Israel's Western alliances.
19:48
And by the way, disagree with me if, if you want.
19:51
But.
19:52
You, you foresee a possibility, at least, that in the summer of 2025, we might
19:57
be more or less in the same situation, this war of attrition, a hot war,
20:01
ballistic missiles flying above Israel.
20:04
Is that right?
20:05
I certainly hope not.
20:08
has an interest in bringing this war to a speedy conclusion, but
20:12
not a speedy conclusion that starts the clock ticking to the next war.
20:17
It will want to continue destroying and degrading Hezbollah's infrastructure
20:22
so that hopefully by next summer, either there is a peacekeeping force
20:27
with teeth, that will keep Hezbollah away from the border, or it will
20:31
have lost the ability to keep firing.
20:33
And I think the defense minister said that Hezbollah is already down to
20:36
about a third of its pre war missile stockpile, which is fantastic news.
20:42
But there are new threats.
20:43
The threat of drones, for example, uh, something new in this war, sending
20:48
people running into bomb shelters.
20:49
Sometimes they crash through.
20:51
Recently, we had the biggest mass casualty event.
20:53
Since October 7th from a Hezbollah suicide drone from Lebanon.
20:57
And Israel's enemies have an interest in keeping up a war of attrition, you know.
21:01
One missile every morning that sends the whole country
21:04
running into the bomb shelters.
21:07
global policy makers who want to bring us to genuine peace and prosperity
21:13
need to take responsibility for how we got here in the first place.
21:16
Israel is certainly learning lessons.
21:18
that we cannot afford to allow monstrous terrorist armies to grow up on our
21:23
borders and then hope that they can be deterred because when they can't you
21:28
end up with the October 7th massacre and tens of thousands of people displaced.
21:35
we're in this situation in Lebanon because the UN failed.
21:40
The UN failed.
21:41
International diplomacy failed.
21:43
The Security Council failed.
21:45
The UK failed.
21:46
The US failed.
21:47
France failed.
21:48
The organ responsible for overseeing UN peacekeepers sat by as those
21:55
peacekeepers allowed Hezbollah to build military fortifications
21:59
right next to UNIFIL positions.
22:01
Why is Israel having to act so close to UNIFIL positions?
22:04
Because that's where Hezbollah deliberately put
22:06
its military infrastructure and they did nothing about it.
22:09
I think they need to take responsibility for that and understand that Israel is now
22:12
basically cleaning up the world's mess.
22:15
You think there's a chance they will take responsibility for
22:18
this after this painful year?
22:20
It'll be a year and a half by, uh, next summer that something will change.
22:25
I mean, you know, the U.
22:26
N.
22:26
is not particularly friendly to Israel.
22:28
The U.
22:29
K.
22:29
government, the place where you came from, is not particularly friendly to Israel.
22:33
No, I don't think it will change from a position of genuine introspection.
22:37
If it does change, it will be from a recognition of the raw
22:40
power dynamics on the ground.
22:41
Namely, Israel has the upper hand in Lebanon, and if you want Israel's
22:45
military offensive against Hezbollah to stop, well, then Israel has certain
22:49
demands, as Morag Gravid reported in Axios, on the terms on which the war.
22:55
Is to end, you know, leaders obviously have an interest in appealing to
22:58
international diplomacy and international security architecture, and then passing
23:03
the buck off to the next leader.
23:05
But we're still going to be here.
23:07
So Israel is in a position to insist that Unifil have a stronger mandate,
23:13
more enforcement mechanisms, and hope that that will be taken seriously within
23:17
Lebanon as well, that they will be fed up with their country having been
23:20
turned into an Iranian forward base.
23:22
And we're hearing some of those voices in Lebanon and with Hezbollah seriously
23:26
degraded, know, there's a chance that they may, may act to take their country back.
23:31
Hmm.
23:32
You've been interacting with Western media now since October 7th.
23:38
Do you want to characterize the level of your frustration?
23:43
The international media can be extremely frustrating.
23:47
sometimes we will often see coverage where nothing Israel does.
23:53
Is ever right journalists who will spin whatever Israel does against it, right?
23:58
And the famous interview with Kay Burley from November last year, where
24:03
she asked me whether the fact that we were willing to release three prisoners
24:07
for every one hostage meant we attach less value to Palestinian lives that
24:11
went viral in Israel and around the world because it resonated with people
24:15
who feel that sometimes it doesn't matter what we do or what we say,
24:17
the world will always be against us.
24:19
I'm actually not from the people who we should just be complaining about the media
24:24
all the time and saying it's not fair.
24:25
I think Israel has to take a share of the blame and the responsibility,
24:29
which is that, um, Israel has simply abandoned the information battlefield.
24:34
It's not fighting it.
24:36
This is a complaint that I've been hearing for decades.
24:40
First of all, is it true?
24:41
I mean, you seem to suggest that there's some significant truth in that.
24:46
And why is that the case?
24:48
I mean, you know, we like to talk.
24:50
We're a very talkative people.
24:51
We're very rational people.
24:53
We like to communicate.
24:55
Why is, uh, I don't even know if we call it Hasbara anymore.
24:58
I don't know what we call it, but I've been hearing these complaints for decades.
25:02
Look, if you're asking me about this government, it's not like everything
25:05
else is functioning and this is the only public service that isn't working.
25:10
It's part of a basket of misplaced national priorities.
25:14
But my, my question to you is maybe, maybe you disagree with
25:17
this, but I've been hearing about the lack of what used to be called
25:21
Hasbara information for decades now.
25:25
So if it's true, there seems to be something structural in the framework
25:29
of Israel's relationship with, uh, the international media or with the
25:33
international community that deprioritizes this part of the, It's a national
25:38
defense effort on the part of the Israeli government or the Israeli people.
25:44
Israel had a public diplomacy ministry and it shut down a week into the war
25:48
because there was a war, not despite the war, because there was a war.
25:51
They decided this is something that we don't need.
25:53
It's a travesty.
25:55
I think Israelis have come used to thinking
26:00
Uh, the whole world hates us.
26:01
They're all anti Semites.
26:02
It doesn't matter what we say.
26:04
There's no point even trying to win this battle because we're
26:06
outnumbered and there are 130 Muslims for every one Jew in the world.
26:11
So what's the point in even trying to fight this battle?
26:13
And I think it's a terrible mistake.
26:15
The impression that I took from my six months or so in the prime
26:20
minister's office was that when you talk, there is a receptive ear.
26:24
And people are willing to listen and you can't expect people to be more pro
26:27
Israel than the information they're getting and you can't expect the
26:30
information they're getting to be pro Israel if Israel isn't providing it.
26:33
So when you back to back interviews and, uh, and treat it as an
26:39
information war and be there and go on the offensive and provide timely
26:43
information and do proper crisis management, you can make a difference.
26:48
if you decide we're not even going to fight this battle you're not going to.
26:54
at the beginning of this war, Israel put together this, you know, response out of
27:00
nothing deal with international media.
27:03
But since then, it's all unraveled.
27:05
part of what I'm doing, I wear two hats now.
27:09
In English, making the case for Israel around the world.
27:13
In Hebrew, I make the case for the world.
27:16
I try to convince Israelis why it is important to take this seriously.
27:21
And that we still have friends, we still have allies.
27:24
But they don't understand why we're not speaking up for ourselves.
27:27
Can you, in a nutshell, tell us why you think it's so important to do?
27:31
And after all, you said there's a, at least a strong argument on the
27:38
part of people who have authority and influence in the Israeli decision
27:41
making process that it's not important.
27:43
Why do you think it is important?
27:45
What's at stake?
27:45
Thank you.
27:46
This is why the information war is critical.
27:49
Israel's enemies want to destroy us.
27:51
They think it will be easier to destroy us if they convince the world
27:54
that Israel deserves to be destroyed.
27:56
So you have a big campaign accusing Israel of genocide, apartheid, starvation, being
28:02
a white settler, supremacist, fascist, blah, blah, blah, blah, committing
28:06
every war crime under the sun, in order to convince good, ordinary people.
28:11
In the US, the UK, Germany, that Israel is as bad as Nazi Germany.
28:16
don't negotiate with Nazi Germany.
28:18
You don't fly to Nazi Germany.
28:20
You don't do business with Nazi Germany.
28:21
Nazis are meant to be destroyed.
28:24
And anyone who supports the Nazis should be jailed or purged from society.
28:30
That is what they are trying to do.
28:32
want to ensure that the next time they attack Israel, whether it's suicide
28:36
bombings or drones or ballistic missiles, Our allies will stand
28:41
back and say the Jews had it coming.
28:44
They deserved it because their country didn't deserve
28:47
to exist in the first place.
28:48
So why should we step in to save them?
28:50
Why should we help defend them from ballistic missile attacks?
28:54
Why should we even sell them weapons?
28:56
They want to attack israel and to attack israel.
29:01
They want to leave it defenseless That's why the information war matters for israel
29:07
It's difficult enough to fight a war on seven fronts without fighting against
29:11
the whole world at the same time We are a small country We are outnumbered.
29:15
We are vastly out resourced.
29:17
We need the material, moral and diplomatic support of our allies in
29:22
order to fight for our existence.
29:24
But I'll say something else about why the information war matters and why
29:28
we have set up the Israeli citizen spokesperson's office to continue
29:32
this fight from civil society.
29:35
It's not just about Israel having the weapons and the support that it needs to
29:41
fight against enemies on seven fronts.
29:44
Where it's really existential.
29:49
Because antisemitism throughout history, with the exception of
29:52
the Nazis, gave the Jews an out.
29:56
There was a conditional acceptance.
29:58
you convert, if you say this catechism will accept you,
30:03
turn your backs on your people.
30:05
There is a movement now around the world that is going to Jews and
30:08
saying we have nothing against Jews.
30:09
We have something against Israel.
30:11
if you keep your heads down, or even better, join us and attack
30:15
Israel, we'll accept your Jewish institutions and schools and synagogues.
30:20
Just be against Israel.
30:22
And it puts Jewish societies and communities in a trap.
30:25
And I know that you've spoken so powerfully about how the reform community
30:29
in the United States is experiencing it.
30:31
And you've come under a lot of attack, particularly from young Jewish radicals
30:35
on that issue, who take that trap, who take that conditional get out.
30:40
And we think that in order to fight against anti Semitism, in order to
30:43
fight against the movement that is trying to squeeze Jews out of society
30:49
in the West, need to tackle ad rut.
30:53
the increasingly deranged lies that are fueling that antisemitism.
30:57
We want to empower diaspora Jews through the content that we produce at the
31:01
citizen spokesperson's office stand up for Israel and shut down the lies of
31:08
thinking that the way they need to deal with this pressure is to turn their backs
31:13
on Israel, because it's going to continue chasing them and they won't be left safe.
31:17
So how do you think we're doing in this information war, both before October
31:21
7th, but especially since October 7th?
31:24
We've regressed.
31:26
At the beginning of this war, Israel built some international media response, okay?
31:33
Together with Ambassador Mark Bregev, Tal Heinrich, Avi Hyman,
31:36
the other spokespeople of the PMO.
31:39
did about a thousand TV interviews in the space of the first six months of the war.
31:44
Peter Lerner and Jonathan Conricus did another thousand from the IDF.
31:48
None of that exists anymore.
31:52
And it's a crying shame, because the lies against Israel are
31:56
going unchallenged in the media.
31:58
What I say here on Israeli TV.
32:01
Is how is it possible that every day a spokesperson for UNRWA or UNICEF goes on
32:06
the BBC, CNN to talk about The situation in Gaza from their perspective, and no
32:12
one from Israel is picking up the phone and saying, we demand a right of response.
32:16
We also want to be interviewed.
32:19
There is strategic territory that we're abandoning, unfortunately.
32:24
the fight is being led by individuals within civil society who are simply
32:29
taking up the mantle themselves.
32:31
Here at the citizen spokesperson's office.
32:34
we're trying to coordinate interviews all around the world on the night of
32:36
the ballistic missile attack from Iran.
32:39
We placed 30 interviews in the global media.
32:43
But also from other private citizens.
32:44
And, and really within Israel, the only functioning element of the information
32:50
apparatus the IDF Spokesperson's Unit, which, you know, for various bits of
32:56
criticism that I'll have is actually doing a very good job fighting a war
33:01
that no other army has to do because no other war is so intensely scrutinized
33:06
that they're required to account for the velocity of every single bullet
33:10
and the million different events happening on seven different fronts.
33:13
It's happening from the IDF.
33:14
It's not happening from the rest of official Israel.
33:17
So, my question for you, Eylon, is, uh, you, you mentioned, uh, two dramatic
33:22
interests that Israel has in terms of, uh, waging this information war.
33:26
One is public opinion in the West that affects policies of our allies.
33:31
And secondly, on Western Jews, of course, the biggest population is American Jews.
33:38
And you said we've regressed.
33:39
Just have you noted a regression?
33:41
In those achievements, in the, in the solidity of the support of Israel's
33:46
international allies, as well as Western and American Jews, as a result of the
33:52
regression of the information war.
33:55
Well, of course our allies support has regressed since very early on in the war.
33:59
Israel has been continuing to fight by withstanding immense pressure
34:03
from allies who said not to go into Rafah, turn the other cheek to attacks
34:08
coming from Hezbollah and wrap this up with some sort of diplomatic accord
34:13
that would leave Hezbollah in place.
34:14
Israel has had to resist that pressure in order to continue fighting.
34:20
that, we've seen an incredible, what I call the great diaspora awakening.
34:25
of October 7th Jews.
34:27
Those who weren't especially connected to Israel before the war, all were
34:32
and have redoubled their efforts who suddenly received, um, punch in the gut
34:35
and I'm sure that from your own pulpit you've seen people wearing Magin Davids
34:40
who didn't before, lighting Shabbos candles who didn't before, maybe even
34:43
putting up a mezuzah who hadn't before.
34:45
I think there's an increasing understanding in the diaspora
34:48
about is happening, why it matters and why they need to speak up
34:52
and use their voices as well.
34:55
intensify, especially what is happening on campuses, The temptation to go
35:02
all in with, with the big bad wolf, those who are offering the conditional
35:06
acceptance becomes greater and greater.
35:09
if Israel isn't telling its story and setting the record straight, it becomes
35:14
more difficult for people to oppose that.
35:17
One of the most insidious things about the modern antisemitism is the gaslighting.
35:22
the attempt to make people doubt their own sanity, their own
35:25
humanity, their own decency, they're doing a very good job about that.
35:30
But, um, you know, maybe this is a question that I'll ask you when you come
35:33
on State of a Nation here in Tel Aviv.
35:36
How, how you're seeing that from your own end, whether you're seeing people
35:40
intensifying their commitments to Israel, or being squeezed out by that pressure.
35:45
So, so you've got a bit of time to think of an answer now.
35:48
I'll give you a heads up, we're seeing both as you yourself indicated, but I'll
35:53
be happy to talk about that further.
35:54
Excited to talk to you about it.
35:57
Two quick questions before you have to go.
35:59
You studied both at Oxford and Cambridge.
36:02
You're British.
36:04
Have you been back to Oxbridge?
36:05
And how do you assess the atmosphere on campus?
36:11
Not since the beginning of the war, the situation on campus is extremely
36:15
problematic, this is the formative experience of people who are going
36:20
to be in five years, Senior advisor to politicians in 10, members of
36:27
parliament in 15, and, you know, the prime minister in 20 years.
36:32
Um, and Israel is being up axiomatically as being on the wrong side, as being an
36:39
oppressor, as something that you can't even open up a discussion about it.
36:42
And everywhere I go around the world, I make a point of speaking to students
36:46
to understand what's happening and how they're fighting back against this
36:49
to try to set the record straight.
36:51
And it's so critical that they use their voices.
36:53
I visited Harvard just a few weeks ago, and the inimitable Dara Horne, Author
36:59
of People Love Dead Jews, the excellent point that sometimes People are just
37:06
waiting for someone to speak up and use their voice and that person may
37:11
be you you don't know Who in that room secretly agrees with you and is just
37:16
waiting for someone say it that speaks the importance of Jewish students using
37:22
their voices to speak up for Israel and Jewish communities So that that Israel
37:25
doesn't get As this evil genocidal regime that the lies that are being told about
37:33
Israel don't become the baseline of people's common knowledge about Israel.
37:37
But we clearly have a problem of deep intellectual rot in elite institutions.
37:43
I think it's partly to do with the fact that Israel just doesn't fit into.
37:48
Anyone's mental models or paradigms and so they try to shoehorn it into
37:52
the narrative They have about the world about oppressor oppress and
37:55
they put israel on the wrong side of that And i'm glad that we're seeing
38:00
real pressure against them in the u.
38:02
s The wave of title six lawsuits against universities Donors who are
38:08
pulling their funding, it's not enough.
38:11
We need jewish students to be building on campus and explaining how the pro
38:16
palestinian movement is disruptive, harmful, advocating for forces that
38:25
go against the most deeply held values of the mainstream student society,
38:31
and not let the bullies on campus rule the schoolyard, essentially.
38:37
In some of your, um, debates and polemics in the media and on television, you
38:43
debated with a man named Mehdi Hassan, who I think the exposure was many
38:50
millions of people who saw that on YouTube and various other platforms.
38:54
How was that experience and what did you learn from that?
38:58
It was about as pleasant as root canal surgery without an
39:01
anesthetic, but sometimes a surgical intervention is necessary.
39:04
Look, I really didn't want to do this debate.
39:07
I almost had to be bullied into it.
39:09
And what convinced me to do it was that I've spent the best part
39:14
of the last year telling Jewish students, you are not just Gen Z.
39:18
You aren't Gen Zionist.
39:20
Being a Zionist means standing up to the bullies.
39:23
And when I had an opportunity to take on a bully, I said, if I don't take
39:28
this opportunity, if I chicken out of it, I can't look myself in the mirror.
39:32
I wanted to put on record the case for Israel's conduct in this
39:37
war that's been forced on us.
39:38
But more importantly, to inspire students to stand up and say, if guys
39:45
my age can fight Hamas, they Terrorists on the battlefield in Gaza, and I
39:49
can face Hamas' leading propagandist on the debate stage in New York.
39:53
You can take on the Hamas FALs on your campus.
39:56
You've got this.
39:57
This is on you.
39:58
This is on us.
39:58
It's on the young generation.
40:00
Um, it, it was unpleasant because, because he's a bully, because his
40:04
approach to debating is to challenge your character, your integrity.
40:09
Call me a sociopath.
40:11
He wrote a book on how to win a debate, right?
40:13
in the book, I didn't, I didn't read it.
40:15
I mean, I had to win nearly every argument because, because Douglas Murray and
40:18
Natasha Hausdorff tore him to pieces, uh, but it, but it's based on not actually
40:24
engaging with the difficult questions.
40:26
And I hope that people who listen carefully to the debate, he will, you
40:28
know, gish, gallop and throw out a million accusations more than you can
40:31
possibly respond to, but never actually engages with the core of the question.
40:35
Okay.
40:36
You say that, uh, 7th doesn't justify Israel's actions.
40:40
Okay.
40:41
What does October 7th justify?
40:42
What would you have had us do?
40:44
And if his response is, well, all you could have done is gone in and
40:46
arrest Sinwar, then it shows that he just doesn't have any serious
40:49
answers and doesn't want to engage.
40:51
I mean, motion itself was problematic, okay?
40:55
Even before we talk about the audience and the moderator.
40:58
I wanted to have a debate about whether Hamas should surrender.
41:01
I wanted to have a debate about whether we should defund UNRWA.
41:04
I don't know whether he vetoed the motions or OpenToDebate vetoed the motions.
41:08
This was the motion there was, but it meant that it was asymmetric.
41:13
Because I had something I had to defend, he had nothing he had to defend.
41:16
He could at any point say, well, you know, Hamas shouldn't have done that.
41:21
as if it was, you know, a mistake.
41:22
They had a bad day.
41:24
But didn't have to provide any It's a very productive, constructive
41:27
feedback on what Israel should have done given that situation.
41:31
He could simply appeal emotions and throw a lot of mud around.
41:37
but again, I, I ended that debate with a feeling of a slight missed opportunity
41:42
I had several zingers and arguments that I wanted to make and didn't quite land.
41:46
But I really hope if there's one thing that the debate achieved,
41:50
it's to inspire Jewish students.
41:54
To stand up and be counted and say even if they're going to shame you
41:58
on social media I mean, you just you know search for the debate on youtube
42:02
and most of them are people making videos saying, you know Mehdi hassan
42:05
humiliates or rips apart or whatever.
42:07
I come and get me.
42:07
There's nothing you can say I care about it.
42:10
And if I can help jewish students develop the same skin,
42:14
um, Dayenu, I've done my job.
42:18
So my last question to you, and it's related to your answer just now.
42:22
Do you have a message for American Jews?
42:26
Our messages are the messages we put out through the Israeli
42:28
Citizen Spokesperson's Office.
42:30
We are building this non profit in order to support you.
42:34
In order to empower you, because we know there are so many of you.
42:39
want to speak up for Israel and feel you don't have the information,
42:42
you don't have the words.
42:44
So we're producing content that we hope will give you the words
42:48
and information and the soundbites to feel empowered to speak up.
42:52
the connection between Israel and the diaspora is so important between the
42:56
Jewish diaspora and the Jewish state.
42:59
The enemy is trying to divide and rule us.
43:01
When people play this game of saying, you know, there's Israel
43:06
and there are Jews and they're different and don't conflate them.
43:09
Maybe some of them think they're being nice and good, but what
43:12
they're saying is there are good Jews and there are bad Jews.
43:15
Good Jews keep their heads down or protest Israel.
43:18
Bad Jews are the ones who speak up for their cousins and neighbors who
43:22
are under attack on seven fronts.
43:25
And there is a lot of pressure on people to simply take the
43:28
out and keep their heads down.
43:30
And we're saying, no, you have to be bad Jews, quote, unquote.
43:33
You have to speak up for your brothers and sisters who are under attack.
43:37
Because real lives are at stake.
43:40
And because we cannot allow our enemies to pick us off by dividing and ruling us.
43:45
And if you want to fight against antisemitism, I'm sorry, it's not enough
43:50
to organize another protest against hate.
43:54
You need to tackle the lies that are fueling.
43:58
the hatred of Israel, and then fueling the hatred of anyone
44:02
who is associated with Israel.
44:05
You cannot allow the lies that are being told about Israel to go
44:09
unchecked, to go unchallenged, and hope that it will pass you over
44:13
just because you're in the diaspora.
44:15
So we hope that this vehicle that we're building will be useful in
44:18
empowering Diaspora Jews to find their own voices and please follow
44:24
us on all social media platforms.
44:26
And we're open to all and any unsolicited advice and feedback on on how we
44:30
can make this more useful for you.
44:32
Well, with that happy note, I want to thank you, Eylon Levy, for giving us this
44:37
time, but for your immense efforts and talents on behalf of the Jewish people.
44:44
Thank you very much.
44:50
As we are in the midst of an intense, anxious electoral season,
44:54
when passions are so high and the stakes seem so dramatic to us.
44:59
In speaking with Eylon.
45:00
and absorbing his interaction with Israeli politicians, I was reminded of the basic
45:05
reality that Israeli society, the Israeli people, are so much better than their
45:12
government and political representatives.
45:15
It's hard for me to pinpoint why.
45:17
Perhaps it is the electoral system that, for many reasons, inclines towards
45:22
electing mediocre representatives.
45:24
Perhaps, partially at least.
45:27
It is in the nature of politics and politicians.
45:31
I often feel that in America, too, the people are better
45:33
than their representatives.
45:35
Either way, it's frustrating to me.
45:39
There is a fascinating and profound debate in the Talmud on the
45:41
nature of political leadership.
45:44
It is only two sentences long.
45:47
According to one view, as the leader, so the generation.
45:52
According to the other view, as the generation.
45:56
So the leader.
45:58
In other words, one opinion proposes that the character of a
46:02
generation is determined by its leadership from the top down.
46:06
This view asserts that leaders have a critical impact on
46:09
the character of a society.
46:11
Our civilization will be good or bad, moral or immoral, our
46:15
policies will be decent or indecent.
46:18
In large part, as a result of the character and policies
46:21
of those who lead us.
46:23
The other opinion proposes the opposite.
46:26
It is the character of a generation that produces its
46:29
leadership from the bottom up.
46:31
In other words, you will get what you deserve.
46:35
Good leaders are reflections of a good and decent society, and bad leaders are
46:39
the products of a society gone wrong.
46:43
For years now, but especially since October 7, 2023, I have felt
46:48
strongly that Israel deserves better than its political representatives.
46:53
The Israeli people are amazing.
46:55
So many simply dropped everything on October 7th and volunteered any resource
47:00
expertise or skill available to them towards the collective war effort.
47:05
In the past year there are reservists who have served dozens and even hundreds of
47:10
days in the IDF, leaving their families and businesses to defend the country.
47:15
Countless civilians devote much of their day, every day,
47:19
to help in any way they can.
47:21
This is what Alone Levy did.
47:24
In the middle of a war described by many as existential, while the government
47:28
continued down its narrow, cutthroat political ways, bless them, they can't
47:34
help themselves, Eylon decided that if the Prime Minister, or his wife, or who
47:39
knows who, wanted him out, he would simply do what he does best as a volunteer.
47:46
And what an impact he made and continues to make.
47:49
I resonate with what he told us.
47:51
You never know who is listening to you.
47:54
And who is waiting for you to voice your views that gives
47:57
others courage and confidence.
47:59
You never know how your words impact on others.
48:02
I've had that happen to me many times.
48:05
People who approach me sometimes years later and recall in vivid detail
48:10
something I said which I long ago forgot.
48:14
I've spent a lot of time with politicians.
48:16
I am not skeptical or cynical about the political vocation.
48:21
Politics can be, and often is, a noble profession.
48:26
It's about ideas, values, service, and collective responsibility.
48:32
But at all times, we must remember that first and foremost,
48:36
politics is about the pursuit, acquisition, and exercise of power.
48:42
Politicians can spend a lifetime seeking power, and when they have
48:45
it, they are loathe to give it up.
48:49
They develop a keen awareness, almost a sixth sense of threats to their position.
48:55
In the maelstrom of the political struggle, the human interaction
48:59
in politics is fiercer.
49:01
Innate human passions are stirred much more deeply.
49:06
The fights are more ferocious, even if they conform outwardly
49:10
to proper democratic standards.
49:13
There is an acceptable way to stick the knife in someone or
49:16
ruin their professional lives.
49:19
Even if done in a genteel fashion, it's still a form of combat.
49:23
It's still the impulse to devastate and destroy the other guy, although it's
49:28
better than the physical violence that characterized so much of human history.
49:33
The successful leaders in democracies are the ones who master the political process.
49:38
They fight better.
49:39
They're more aggressive, more able to withstand human combat in democratic
49:43
form, and often even have a zeal for it.
49:47
Their passions are more intense, but they learn to master them better.
49:52
The successful ones are the ones who are smarter and more driven.
49:56
They have, in Shakespeare's words, vaulting ambition, which overleaps
50:01
itself and falls on the other.
50:04
Jewish tradition emphasizes, Gadol ha ish, gadol ha yetzir.
50:09
The greater is the person, the greater his impulse for power,
50:13
domination, fame, adulation.
50:17
But let us remember, especially during this election cycle in America, that
50:21
in the end, great political leadership is about the capacity to inspire, to
50:27
awaken the better angels of our nature.
50:31
Exceptional political leaders inspire us to rise above our own self interests
50:35
and consider the interests of others.
50:39
Time after time, history demonstrates that the people will follow true leaders.
50:44
We follow them on the battlefield.
50:46
We follow them in the political arena.
50:49
We follow them in the boardroom, the classroom, the operating room.
50:54
We follow them because of the way they make us feel.
50:58
They make us feel better about ourselves.
50:59
They give us hope.
51:01
They instill confidence.
51:03
They remind us of who we can be, what we can be.
51:07
And how we can be.
51:09
Their motto is always, After me.
51:12
Even if it puts me in harm's way, I am first.
51:15
Follow me.
51:16
And we do.
51:18
We follow these leaders voluntarily.
51:20
Willingly, we cede them authority because we trust them.
51:24
We want to be better.
51:26
We do not want to live preoccupied and absorbed only with our needs.
51:30
We want to make a difference.
51:32
To count for something.
51:34
We want leaders to lift us up from the numbing drudgery of daily life, and to
51:38
awaken us to our fullest possibilities.
51:41
We want leaders who can make us better.
51:44
We want leaders who can help us recapture our prior enthusiasm for
51:47
good and our youthful confidence in ourselves and in others.
51:52
As the generation, so the leader.
51:54
As the leader, so the generation.
51:57
Who are we?
52:03
Until next time, this is In These Times.