Latest / The Environment in Canada Podcast / "I'm going to do it anyway because it's right" - Pauline Thornham on the virtue of stubbornness AND updates.

Transcript

"I'm going to do it anyway because it's right" - Pauline Thornham on the virtue of stubbornness AND updates. · The Environment in Canada Podcast

• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of the Environment in Canada Podcast.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: A podcast for the Environment in Canada by Sierra Club Canada.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Conor Christ, Director of Communications of Sierra Club Canada, and I'm not your host today.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have an interview for you with Pauline Polly Thornham, a longtime volunteer of Sierra Club Canada, an environmental advocate in Brampton, Ontario.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: The interview is hosted by Sierra Club Canada board member, Andrea Miller.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Before we get into their chat, though, a few key updates.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, in the wake of the wildfires in British Columbia, the Red Cross is fundraising in response, and there will be a link in the description for the podcast to that effort.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you are aware of any local mutual aid efforts happening anywhere in Canada in relation to the wildfires happening right now, please do not hesitate to write into us and let us know as well.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to link as well in the description to our guide on how to deal with wildfire smoke and to our previous podcasts on wildfire response in case they are of use to you wherever you are.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: On the same note, you might remember from our previous podcast episodes on Rojava, Friend of the Pod, James Stout.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: James will have a new podcast series that is coming out soon called quote unquote Natural Causes on Wildfires starting on the 17th of August.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And just returned from reporting on a Spokane fire in the US.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you are interested in helping with the indigenous community response to the Spokane fire, James recommends the Spokane Tribal Network and has a couple of other links you can visit as well.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: See the description again for those.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: We have two new take action items linked in the description, via which you can send a message to the Prime Minister and other relevant leaders on issues related to the extraction and burning of oil and gas.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, a key contributor to wildfires.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, you can take action to stand in solidarity with Greenland against unauthorized US oil and gas drilling.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Canadian corporations are facilitating oil exploration and drilling by a US firm in Greenland without approval by Greenland's government.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: The Canadian government must not allow Canadian corporations and Canadian ports to play a role in helping the US and US corporations force oil exploration and drilling onto Greenland.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: But to quote The Guardian, a Greenland energy representative, that's the Trump-linked oil firm, has said a vessel carrying its 300 shipping containers of drill and equipment is set to sail from Canada on the 12th of September 2026, and that is sailing from the port of Valleyfield in Quebec.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Take action at the link in the description on that issue by sending a message.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: For a second take action item, as the National Observer reports, Crown Corporation Export Development Canada provided between 100 and 200 million in project financing for the gas-fired plant that will power U.S.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Corporation, Meta's data center in Sturgeon County, Alberta.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is not an isolated incident but part of a wider federal government approach to build up gas plants for AI data centers so as to create demand for gas to benefit U.S.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: owned and aligned oil and gas interests who want more demand for their product.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: In the midst of yet another horrific wildfire season, the federal government made multiple cuts to our capacity to address wildfires, including nearly half the jobs at the NERV Center for managing wildfires.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Any public or crown corporation financing should be directed towards renewables for people, not gas plants for data centers.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: Send a message to the Prime Minister using the form at the link in the description.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: And wildfires are very much the fault of oil and gas corporations operating in Canada, though those corporations are often US owned.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thirteen oil and gas companies operating or based in Canada on the list of the 88 big carbon polluters called out for a major share of the forested lands lost to wildfires in North America between 1989 and 2021, according to the Energy Mix.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: The oil and gas sector is our biggest polluter, despite being only 7.8% of our GDP.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the direct contribution is only 3.4%.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: They also continue to lie about climate change and stall action.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: Canada has much higher per person emissions than other countries, as well as historical emissions, and per person is how you measure impact and climate progress, not overall emissions.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that is in great part down to oil and gas corporations' contributions.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: Our federal government has, again, not only gutted or cut the policies meant to reduce corporate emissions, but they are using taxpayer dollars to help oil and gas corporations compete with renewables, and they're seeking to use, again, data centers to create markets to burn even more gas domestically.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And again, USO corporations are also aware that every dollar we spend on a marketless pipeline to nowhere, like a West Coast pipeline, is a dollar we don't spend on renewables, which is their competition.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: And for that matter, every dollar we spend on that marketless pipeline is a dollar we don't spend on wildfire response.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we're talking about tens of billions of dollars on that pipeline.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to imagine just for a second how much of a benefit that could be, not just for renewable energy, but wildfire response in Canada.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: If we spend that money on that rather than a pipeline that again has no market for its product.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: We have several events coming up that you can attend.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Firstly, in Toronto, we are co-organizing a many versus the money People's Counter Summit on September 12th.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: The Prime Minister is hosting an investment summit in Toronto where he has invited over 100 private investors to browse the sale of public infrastructure like hospitals and airports, housing stock, highways, hydro dams, the defense industry, and critical minerals.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Our major counter-mobilization will highlight whose interests the PM is really serving and build unity in action across movements and organizations at this crucial moment.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: It is being organized by a broad coalition of unions, indigenous movements, migrant justice organizers, healthcare, education, and public service workers, human rights organizations, anti-racist, antifascist organizers, climate justice groups, including Sierra Club Canada Gang, Care Economy activists, and so many more.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Find a link to that in our description of this podcast.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Secondly, in Newfoundland Labrador, we have two upcoming events.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: There will be a rain garden party in St.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: John's on September 19, 2026.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Partners include the Mixed Coast Collective, CMFI, Youth Climate Corps, and Mercy Center.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking for community members who are interested in learning practical green skills, helping improve local stormwater management and connecting with others through hands-on environmental action.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Learn how to one, stop excess water runoff near a home.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: Two, climate adaptation, connecting to plants and gardening.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Three, use green skills for community development and urban planning.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Please complete the form at the link in the description for this podcast.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: No prior experience is required, and it's open to all ages, but children under 18 must be accompanied by an adult.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: We will also be holding a two-day introductory solar training event in Channel Porto Basque from October 3rd to 4th, 2026.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Are you interested in learning about solar energy?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Mix Coast Collective, Sierra Club Canada, and Iron and Earth are hosting a free community information session and intro solar training in Channel Porto Basque.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: This session is designed for beginners and will cover the basics of how solar energy works, different ways it can be used in Porto Basque, and what to consider if you're interested in solar for your home, business, or community.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: There will also be plenty of time to ask questions and connect with solar experts.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: No experience is required, and all are welcome.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Again, find the form for that in the description for this podcast.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And now for that interview with Pauline and Andrea, I do just want to say I really love this interview, and it's always a pleasure to hear from someone who has volunteered and worked with Sierra Called Canada and done so much important work in the process.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think also it really highlights for me all of the day-to-day work our members and supporters are doing that often goes unseen because it's maybe not always the most flashy work.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And how making change is hard and takes dedication and commitment and patience and all these things that often we try to make events fun.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's real value in that.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so many ways of making change that, and I can speak to this myself, you just spend hours working.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, you may not see results for years, or you may not even know if you've succeeded for a very, very long time.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I just really love this interview for I think shining a light on that and again the work that so many of our supporters are doing.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: So nice to see you face to face.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, likewise.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for for inviting me.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is nice.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's our pleasure.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you just won the Brampton Grow Green Legacy Award.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations on that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: How does it feel?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it feels delightful and uh and um I'm honored.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: I it's connection to the community that I've been working in, you know, well, for I've been here for 45 years or so, uh, but I I've been either teaching or uh volunteering uh all of that time.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: So um it's nice to have a uh recognition of the things that I've contributed.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: And uh kind of surprising when when I was nominated for the uh award um the nominator, uh Rosemary Keenan, um listed all of the things, you know, and asked me to list things that I'd participated in.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it, you know, it didn't seem like much at the time that I was um doing it, but it added up to quite a bit.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so that kind of surprised me really.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it was fun, it's been a fun time.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that sounds really satisfying to look at the arc of your of your work.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: When you I I'm wondering about when you first heard that you'd won.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: Was there anything in particular about any memory from all of those years that you have been involved in environmental work that you that you remembered that you were thinking about?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um there were several.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: There was one that kind of stood out to me because it was a little bit different.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um Rosemary and I were asked to uh support somebody who was um objecting to some development that wasn't fair in his area.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so we were talking to a judge uh in a hearing.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I remember sort of doing it off the cuff, I guess, but recommending to the judge and to the other side who were developers, of course, um that they uh change their methods and and start uh building um neighborhoods that were environmentally friendly and maybe like slightly smaller houses instead of the ostentatious ones that they love to build.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, adding things like heat pumps and and other, you know, extra extra insulation and all those things.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, it didn't actually go anywhere at the time, but I I had a feeling that maybe it planted a seed, or I hope that it planted a seed in in their minds and in the judge's mind, because I know that at the time Rosemary said, well, the whole time that you were talking, she was taking notes.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I thought, well, it may not have worked this time, but it might might work at sometime in the future.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and as I said, it was a it was an odd, different kind of um activity from what we normally do.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, it kind of stuck in my mind.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: So for listeners who who don't know Rosemary, who is Rosemary?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: She is the former chair of the um Brampton branch or the Peel branch of Sierra.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: So she was for several years.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I did 15 years.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um I really like what you're saying about planting a seed because we never know when we're planting a seed, right?
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh yeah, I like that the idea that at least I had a chance to speak to power one-on-one kind of thing, which is not a normal I mean it it doesn't happen for everybody.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I just I just appreciated the opportunity, I think.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: So now maybe going back um further, um what in your life first sparked your interest in doing work for the environment?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was raised in um mining town in Gas Bay in the mountains.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: When I first went there at the age of six, the mountains were all covered with uh green uh uh coniferous forest.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: And eight years later when I left uh the coniferous forest was all basically gray sticks on the mountains from the uh sulfur dioxide coming from the smelter in the mine.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I understood sort of, I think I understood pretty well that you know the whole purpose for the town was for that mine and that all the people that lived there were getting their living from it, including my father.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so they sort of see it as a price of doing business kind of thing.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: If you want to have the copper, you've gotta you've gotta mine it, you've got to smelt it and and that's what you do.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I didn't see it quite that way myself, because I could see the d damage it was doing.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the same thing we moved to Naranda in northern Quebec and it had already happened there, so it was pretty bald, you know, bare rocks, a lot like Sudbury, which is more famous.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: They always talk about using Sudbury as a uh substitute for a moonscape kind of thing.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Not anymore, but in the old days.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I could see all of these things as I was growing up because I was in a mining community and I understood both sides of it, but I thought we could do better.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that was where it started, I think.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I also had the uh cottage, my grandfather's cottage that we always went to out for the summer, and and I my whole family loved that, and we all loved the animals and the birds and and the all you know, all the wildlife.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I got that part of it as well, the positive part of it, and then also from the mining, the negative.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and how did you um first get involved with Sierra Club Peel Group?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: Well, while I was teaching full-time, I was too busy to get involved with anything, although I did make um financial contributions to a variety of different groups, um including CRM, I'm pretty sure.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um but when I retired, I knew I wanted to do something involved with environment.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so I did a certificate in environmental conservation online from University of Guelph, which involved six courses, and it just gave me some sort of legitimacy, I guess, a little background.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: And from then I just looked around the community and um Peter Orfanos was the founding uh chairperson, I think, of the Sierra appeal.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I had heard of him as because he was a teacher as well and involved in environmental things, and so I looked him up and and joined Sierra then.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: How long did it take you to do that program?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh a year, two years.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it was yeah, after I retired, 2008 I retired, and uh by 2010, the end of 2010, I had done it all.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find it very helpful for the for the work that you do with the environment?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it adds it adds definitely.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I had a um degree in agriculture, which is not exactly environmental.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it is, it can be.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have to be.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um but so I had scientific background, but the uh added uh courses just you know gave me a little bit padding, if you will.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not I'm not an expert in anything, but I I have a lot of you know general knowledge, I guess.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh for people who are are not aware, um, what kinds of projects or initiatives have you been involved with uh in the Peel Group?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: I participated and helped to organize year yearly tree plantings in cooperation with the Credit Valley Conservation Authority.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um that was a sort of a standard thing.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um Rosemary and I would also go to the Conservation Authority monthly meetings, uh board meetings, and monitor them as citizens as opposed to um there were counselors there, city counselors.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um we were there to support CVC and and to learn from them too, because they also had were educational.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: The uh presentations that they did were very educational, but we we uh tried to strengthen our relationship and and share some of the CVC um uh initiatives uh with the people that we knew in Sierra and our our audience.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um I worked with other Sierra members to delegate to the region appeal.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is back in uh 2017 or so, when uh the local incinerator, waste incinerator, was uh making a bid to expand.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we uh collectively did uh delegations, several delegations to the uh regional board.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they were planning at the time to initiate uh composting in uh in our waste stream and uh waste management.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And we encouraged that and they ended up not not allowing the expansion, but they initiated the the uh composting system.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, I don't think they did a great job of initiator and implementing it.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um there wasn't any real uh education of the public, so there wasn't as much uptake as there should have been.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: So they wanted to get to 75% um diversion from landfill.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think they came too close to that, maybe maybe 50%.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't know the details exact or the the exact numbers, but it was it fell short.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that resulted in our uh um having the same thing come around again with the expansion this time from 180,000 tons uh waste being burned uh per year to 900,000 tons being burned, which hasn't happened yet, but they've been approved for it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we won a battle and I don't know if we've lost the war, but we're still battling it, and that's part of what we're doing now is is fighting against that and trying to educate the public.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Are you hopeful?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have any hope here of well if enough people knew about it, the people that know about it are not happy about it, but unfortunately we've got probably eight hundred thousand people, and I would probably guesstimate that a hundred thousand might know, and the other seven hundred thousand don't know anything about it.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard to get through to everybody.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And then you know, some people think, well, what are you gonna do with the garbage?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we have to do something with it.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we don't have to burn it, but you know, and uh so we're collaborating.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um Sierra's part of Brampton Environmental Alliance, which is an umbrella group of environmental groups in Brampton, a whole variety of different people.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: And uh BEA has uh got an arrangement with two different universities, um, one to educate the public about um in um environmental degradate degradation and and the uh incinerator in particular.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um and the other one is uh arranging to put air quality monitoring uh all over wherever people volunteer to have it in their backyards or whatever to you know keep track of what's going into our air.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're recommending landfill as opposed to incinerating the the garbage?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: No more diversion and reduction and upstream changes.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Changing policies.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: It requires effort from everybody, from manufacturers to political, you know, governments, different levels of government.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it just needs a lot more effort.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And people would rather throw up their hands and just burn it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's the easy way, easy come, easy go kind of thing.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: And we're wasting resources that took a lot of energy to produce in the first place.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're just burning it and then producing um forever chemicals and toxins that are going into our water and our air and onto our uh crops.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, if we're we're as citizens, we can we're encouraged to have a backyard or a communal garden, but if it's having toxins falling out of the air into it and we're eating them, it's not really, you know, it's not a great solution.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: No, there are so many things that we need to be thinking about that we're not, and they get glossed over.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is there anything in the work that you've done that you're particularly proud of?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: The delegation to the board, to the appeal board, or sorry, Region Appeal Council was uh I think it was a good effort, and um it had a good outcome, and I am proud of that.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Not much more needs to be done, you know.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: We certainly didn't solve everything or anything like that, and didn't come near to that, but um I think it was a good effort and we and a cooperative effort amongst several people, so I was proud of that.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, just supporting CVC and and their tree planting efforts, and um that's always it's fun and it's interesting, and uh um I like that too.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: How did you support the tree planting efforts?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we arranged um uh our own tree planting days and advertised it and provided food and um refreshments and um directions and everything like that, and and coordinated with the CVC tree planting experts and you know, and we made it into a pattern.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: We were doing it quite a lot.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I obviously there are many problems still to be solved.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as you see it, um, what would true environmental uh sustainability look like in, say, a community like Brampton?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um huge reduction in garbage through various methods I met mentioned, a diversion.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um right now we're expecting, as I said, to have this huge expansion, which uh we'd love to stop it somehow.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: We'll we'll we'll keep working on that um so that we have much better education of the of the public and buy-in from the public.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Transit is a big thing.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um transportation.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: According to the mayor, Brampton is uh the second only to not Los Angeles in uh logistics, as a logistics hub in North America.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we have a lot of trucks, in other words, and trains and containers and then piles of containers.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: But that's be that as it may, there's also a lot of just regular traffic.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're both mixed in.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_02: And that also goes back to the um landfill um or sorry, the incinerator, because um if they go through with it, it's the equivalent of about a third of southern Ontario's garbage will come here to be incinerated.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: And that means coming in by truck as well.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, we get the trucks, we get the the exhaust from the trucks, and then we get the exhaust from the incinerators.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh it's not like the incinerators don't have scrubbers and and they have preventative stuff, but there's a lot of gray areas, so to speak, about um, you know, what if this happens, what if that happens, what if it shuts, has to shut down, and they can't shut it down, you know.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: You can't just turn a switch.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Not having that and um and having more public transit, we do have electric buses here, and that's one of the things that the city has done that's not you know, it's been a good thing.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: They've they've uh bought quite a few electric buses, and um we are expanding our public transit and it is being used a lot.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one of the things that uh as a member of another um BEA member um member organization, Bike Brampton, we've been uh really advocating cycling and cycling infrastructure, active uh transportation infrastructure.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that was that's been very often on.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: We had some progress, but we don't have a network yet, which is what's necessary to make it really take off.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you need to have destinations and you need to have connectivity all the way through the city, otherwise it it's uh you know, it just doesn't serve people very well, and so they don't use it, they don't get into the habit of it.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we do have quite a few people cycling, but we need to strengthen it.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: In the last three months or so, we've had three motions from council to remove bike lanes rather than add them.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So we have an uphill battle there.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to see a full network.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is it that's preventing people from creating this network of bike lanes?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why is this not happening in Brampton?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: Political and public will.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there are a lot of people that are very much married to their um cars and they just don't see the advantages.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you you know, even if the person we're talking to is wanting to drive their car, if we have the bike lanes, then other people will be on bikes, which will take up a lot less room and there'd be less traffic, but people don't really see it that way.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: They see a bike lane as a um a block to their driving.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is it that they're worried about the roads being made smaller to accommodate the bike lanes or the cost of putting in the bike lanes?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they'll probably use the cost as an excuse, but it's mostly yeah, the roads being smaller.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: But that the roads, there are a couple of things about the roads being smaller that are actually positives.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um when Brampton and Bramley, which is like the satellite of it's all Brampton now, but uh when they were built, they built in these uh subdivisions what they call over-engineered roads, which means that they're they're much bigger than they needed to be for the amount of traffic.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so um it tends to encourage people to speed because there's a nice wide open straight stretch with no cars on it, and so they speed.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: And um, if you narrow the lanes, you so take out some of the spaces at the side and add bike lanes, the lanes are narrower and people tend to automatically slow down.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: And we did have 159 or something uh cameras on our streets, but then our premier apparently got a few speeding tickets and decided he didn't like them anymore.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so he took said we had to take them all out.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: So so we didn't have that for to control the speeding.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: So the narrower streets are actually a good thing.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Are there a lot of accidents?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: There have been, yeah, yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: But somehow car accidents with each, you know, with two cars are important, but bike accidents tend to get blamed on the cyclist, usually.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Not always, but usually.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Cyclists take a lot of heat for you know, they don't follow the rules and that kind of thing, but you know, lots of car drivers don't follow the rules either.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: I see that every day.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, so obviously progress is slow for much of this work.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um challenging as challenges, but what keeps you motivated even in the face of these challenges?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm stubborn.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: I accept, I can't accept the alternative.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when someone tells me, don't bother, you know, for recycling, whatever, diverting waste.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: It won't help.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: It all goes into landfill anyway, whatever.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: I just say either to them or to myself, I just say, I don't care.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna do it anyway, because it's right.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then and I just keep going.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because I'm stubborn.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: More stubborn people like that.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is it certainly is discouraging and you know, and you sort of need to sometimes stop and take a breath.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, if you know what you're doing is right, I mean it doesn't mean that you don't listen to any anybody that is being reasonable or has a better alternative, that's fine.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: But if it's just throw up your hands and give up because, you know, it's not gonna do any good.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it won't do any good if you don't do it, you know.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's the way I feel about it.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and it might do good if you do.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I keep trying.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think that we can make other people feel that way?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like feel that sense of just like um commitment, stubbornness to the um I think it all comes down to education.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if we can just get people's ears, um and you know, like when we try to encourage cycling and you know uh infrastructure, bike infrastructure, you try you need to get people on a bike.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so inviting people to do things, plant trees, ride bikes, um, you know, that that that is the only, you know, the only real way I think to get people involved is to get them out there and and trying something at least once.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um that's why we we have tables and didn't I've done a ton of tabling at different events and talking to people about all kinds of things.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think that's the only way is to get out there and and talk to people.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: You just went on a big bike trip.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh can you tell us about that?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, um I decided that this year was the year that I was going to expand my cycling because um my husband was ill and then he died um in the end of 2024, and and I wasn't able to you know participate in a lot of the bigger things that other cyclists were doing.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um but this year I decided somebody advertised this local-ish um five-day bike trip, and uh I thought I can do that.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I started first of March.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: I hadn't really been, I hadn't been on a bike all winter, but even before that, because of a variety of things, I hadn't been participating too much in the cycling.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I started with three kilometers on 1st of March, and and by the end of May, the 31st of May, when I was um going on the bike trip, I had just done 52.2 kilometers.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I expanded my my uh length in per day.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I went up to Barrie and uh we stayed in uh college residence and we went out in five different um areas that were all mapped out by the organizers and uh went between 42 and 58 kilometers per day.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, yeah.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: I really love this.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so many of us take flights to go on vacation, which of course isn't so great environmentally, but I mean switch to like you know, these amazing bike trips for our vacation, that would help a lot, I think.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering how your volunteering has shaped your sense of community or belonging or or or has otherwise enriched your life.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yes, it has enriched my life.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: I remember when I when I was teaching and I was focused on my job and everything, but I I was always interested in environmental things, like I said, from the time I was a kid, and I felt that I didn't have anybody to talk to about it, you know, because everybody was all buried in their work or whatever.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, even at teaching, it was about the kids and about curriculum and stuff like that.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: And when I got into talking to people about uh uh environmental issues, they just didn't have the energy to think about it.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: I I once I got into volunteering, I found the people that were interested in it in the same things that I was interested in.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: So uh that it helped a lot because uh then I had people that I could you know either commiserate with or do you know get excited and do stuff about you know about what we're worrying about.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I felt a lot better.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um for someone who cares about the environment and wants to start doing something to help out, but they don't really know where to start, what would you suggest?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I I would say really, people will will sort of say, Oh, I'd like to volunteer, but then they don't really know what they're volunteering for.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that what they should do is sit down with a big pink blank piece of paper and write down all of their skills, and that could be like, for example, young people are much more tech savvy than the old ladies that run all of the volunteering groups, and the tech savviness is really needed, so if they can write that down as an advantage that they have, but also you know, interpersonal skills or whatever, all kinds of things.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um doesn't have to be booked learning, so to speak, it could be just natural things that they they are really strong.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: They're they're they like doing physical work or and also then interests, what are they interested in, and focusing on what they would love to do.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: And if they come to um some idea of the direction they want to go in, then they know what what organization they might want to join or what activities they could offer, uh, what skills they can offer, and start with that and so that they have some idea where they want to go, and then then start applying to join volunteer.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: And in terms of Sierra Club Canada Foundation in particular, what do you think uh is like a first small step that someone might be able to take to get involved?
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: If they have any money, then they can make a donation and that make gives them a little bit of incentive, I think, to um to want to join in because then they you know they've already made some kind of um a monetary investment, and then they can add to that and apply to www.cieraclub.ca and say they want to volunteer.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if they have, like I said, a pre-conceived or figured out notion of what it is they'd like to contribute, then then they'll be able to navigate it a little bit better, I think.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_02: And just going out and volunteering for a tree planting if they see one advertised or or invasive species if they want to rip things apart, you know.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes you want to do things like that.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean I certainly have done a lot of that in my own in my own yard, but also uh helping out with with groups, um, things like uh European buckthorn trees and and garlic mustard and like things like that.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: You can you can do some good, as I said, tearing things out.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you can just start with with one of those and then you learn.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: You learn what's what, what you need to do, and and where you can do it somewhere else.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: What do you wish that people understood about the power of volunteers, like the the impact that they can have?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: As I said, old ladies run the communities.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that you should need to understand that there's a huge army of people doing stuff for nothing in the city in Brampton and and I'm sure everywhere else.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: Some of it is you know for sports and and uh other things, but but uh environmentally there's most of the organizations are run by well into their retirement people, you know, um silver-haired people, and uh they put in tons of hours.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that uh we should appreciate that, I think, which is why I I appreciate the the uh legacy award, um, because it it shows me that I was noticed and uh and I was just I'm just one of many.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it uh it's it's extremely rewarding and generally it doesn't cost you anything except some effort.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: And uh you meet people, have similar views and and concerns about the world and future, and and uh you get to talk to them while you're doing all these neat things.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: What have you learned about people through this work?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: So like your neighbors or youth or newcomers or well, the youth in particular, I've noticed when I've talked to people uh um somebody says they're they're going to university or something, and what are you taking?
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, environmental studies of some sort.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my niece has two daughters that just graduated from university and they're both heavily involved in environmental issues.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't even know what the she my niece said, I I can't tell you what they're doing, but but it's too technical, but but they're they are working on environmental issues.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'd say four out of five people that I ask, what are you studying, if they're post-secondary, it's something to do with the environment, which you know you don't really hear about that much.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, at least you don't get that impression from the public that that everybody's involved in it.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the university students are a lot of them that are involved in environmental issues.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that's great.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh that's hopeful for the future.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, it is.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: I am very pleased about that.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I think that people are getting more interested, concerned, um, generally about environmental issues and about our future.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think they're they have mostly um a willingness to learn.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we because we do tabling, Sierra does TA tabling at things like CD Saturdays.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, when you talk to people about, of course, if if you're going to a CD Saturday, you're sort of involved with at least gardening.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh but they there people are willing to talk and and listen and share ideas, so that's a good thing.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much for this conversation.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_01: I really enjoyed it, and it was wonderful meeting you, Polly.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed it too.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Before we end today, just a reminder that you can take action on environmental issues by visiting SierraClub.ca.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: We have tons of petitions, other actions and events, and regular news updates you can sign up for on the homepage, including that action item on Greenland and standing in solidarity with them and preventing the shipment of unwanted and unapproved drilling equipment from Canadian ports, and the action item to stop the public financing of gas plants in Canada for US Canada corporations.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: You can also find series can on social media, and you can listen to the Environment in Canada podcasts on the Harbinger Media Network, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iPhone Radio and YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast also is on CKUT Podcast Radio in Montreal 90.3 FM biweekly on Tuesdays at 11am Eastern Time.
• 44:40
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