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Scared Straight · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Why we do what we do. I am
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: your Scared Curved host Justin.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: And I'm your Bringing Kids to Prison Day host Shane.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all the
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: things that humans and non human animals do. And if
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: you're joining us for the first time, then welcome. And
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: if you are a returning listener, surprise, we got a
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: new host. Oh yeah, Abraham is gone and I'm taking
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: over the hosting duties from here on out. And let
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: me be the first to say you're welcome.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Well, your voice is so much better anyway, Oh thank you.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Like it's just so silky and smooth, and I just
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: think I'm I'm so excited. You know, Abraham was the
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: really the heart and soul of the show. But I
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: think it's time for some new blood.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's good to shake things up and keep things spicy.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you are the Emperor producer, so like
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: that does help too, That's right, that's right. So now
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: you're on the show, first act as Emperor producer. What
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: is it you're trying to do here? Like, what do
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: you want to bring to the shows, What's the direction
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: that we're going now that Abraham does not have a
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: hand on the wheel.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking absurdist comedy might be the way to go beautiful.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: So I'd like to introduce a musical type episode every
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: week where we sing our lines the entire time.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: Maybe maybe like some music with like odd time signatures,
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: Like maybe maybe our show is just like where our
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: vocals are an odd time signatures. That's great, Like and
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: Jeane di Platrin like we're just weird.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Now, I think I can do that.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds good.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: That's perfect that we've been waiting for. That we needed
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: this change up.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: By the way, we're all wearing polka dots now, so
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: that's that's also part of the show.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: All right, April Fools, we're just kidding.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, get out of here, justin. Don't try to do that.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: How dare you take? How dare you try to take
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Abraham's throne?
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, okay, I will go back to my throne
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: and continue Emperor producing love you bye.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: I think my first attempts at April Fools on this podcast,
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: but I thought it'd be fun. So yeah, I'm here
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: for reels. I'm your scared curved host and hopefully that
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: was as fun for you as it was for me. Yeah,
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: but it is April Fools Day, so I'll ill wish
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: you all a happy April Fools. Let's keep those pranks
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: lighthearted and not mean spirited and nice and chill and whatever.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: But that's the first holiday we'll acknowledge.
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, today is also Boomer Bonus Day.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: It is Edible Book Day. April Fools brank as well.
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so does Fossil Fuel Fossil Fool's Day.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Not Fossil Fuel Day, but Fossil fool Day.
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: Do just feel like they're related, h Fossil Fools and
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: fossil fuels, that is, they say, yes, yes, that name
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: was chosen directly. It is International Tatting Day. Sounds like
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: a good idea.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah. It is Library Snapshot Day.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: Okay. It is Lupus Alert Day, it sure is.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: It's also National Atheist Day.
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: Oh fun, National Fun Day.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Speaking of fun, It's National Jump and Muddy Puddles Day.
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: Is National one cent Day.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: It is National sour dough bread Day.
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: Yum. It is Poetry and the Creative Mind Day, sure.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, It's Sat Stupid Day.
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: Is Trump's birthday.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Nailed it, nailed it.
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: It is a pause International Pooper Scooper Week.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: It sure is a p A W S. Is a pause, yes, pause,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: a pause, a pause. It is Golden Rule Week.
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: It is Laugh at Work Week. It is Medication Safety
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: and to end on a real downer, it is Testicular
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: Cancer Awareness Week.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: Not not something that you want to joke about for
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: April fols.
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, please don't. Anyway, those are the holidays, hope of
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: late and throw you too much for a loop at
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: the beginning of this episode by having Justin tag in briefly,
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: but anyway, we are here to talk about policy things
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: because it's the thing that we do sometimes and that
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: sounds like fun. You're all here for it. You enjoy it.
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: If you like what you hear in this discussion and
• 4:30
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• 4:39
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  Speaker 4: that you do for podcasts and other things to support them,
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: and that's all great with us. So yeah, I think
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: that's what I have to say about that before we
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: get into our topic. Yeah, is there anything else to add?
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Nothing else on my end?
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: Okay, cool, Okay. We have talked about the various juvenile
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: awareness programs before discussions. We did an episode about DARE,
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: We did an even more recent episode about abstinence only education.
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: This fits inside of those. This is a broader category
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: that can include tactics used in those programs. It is
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: a large part of the reason that those programs don't work.
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: And actually that's not even technically true. This is technically
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: its own thing. But we'll get into that in a minute.
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: But we're talking about something called Scared Straight and you
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: might have heard of this. You might be able to
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: into it what that means from the name itself, but
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: we'll get into it. But that is what it's called,
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: the Scared Straight.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's just one guilt away from being the
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: Catholic Church. So we've got this is a fun This
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: would be a fun episode. So we are going to
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: talk about the history and the research about Scared Straight programs,
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: why they don't work, and what we can do instead.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: What better way to'st Ourt April Fools than with a
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: foolish piece of history.
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: A piece of fool history at that yes, okay, So
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: let's go ahead and get into the description of what
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: this is in case you haven't heard of it, or
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: maybe you have heard of like a version of it,
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: but you didn't know that this is what it was called. Whatever,
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: let's talk about that. Scared Straight programs are intended to
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: be prevention strategies designed with the intention to reduce and
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: prevent risky behaviors or perceived to be risky behaviors, generally
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: with like teenagers and other kids, and specifically by frightening
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: them with visceral pictures, exercises, stories, or other methods that
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: depict sort of gruesome outcomes of things going poorly because
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: of engaging in these risky behaviors or what might be
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: called delinquent behaviors.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: Sure, and technically Scared Straight refers to a specific program
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: similar to DARE but different, but the general approach has
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: been adopted in many different places under the same name.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Like some people call bandages band aids, band aid is
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: a brand, but it has come to be used as
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: a generic term for bandages. So you kind of see
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: like Scared Straight as kind of being used as the
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: generic term even though it is like a specific program.
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: Yes, exactly, right, Okay, let's talk about how this sort
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: of came to be. And imagine we're in like the seventies,
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: and you are some person who's high up with a
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: lot of power, looking for a bunch of people to
• 7:21
  Speaker 4: come up with some effective strategies to try and deter
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: youths from becoming criminals engaging in crime. You want to
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: teach young kids to develop good social skills and appropriate
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: social behaviors. Where do you think you would start looking?
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: And is response to that question. If you're thinking experts
• 7:42
  Speaker 4: and scientists, I would agree with you that would be
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: a good place to start looking. If you instead were
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: thinking prison, then first I suggest you seek psychological help immediately,
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: and also you'd be in lockstep with the people of
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a wild time. Then. Now, the best
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: evidence we can find points to Scared Straight, beginning in
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies by some prisoners who put together a
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: program to try to deter quote at risk and quote
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: delinquent youths from ending up in prison like them.
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so they called it Scared Straight, and they put
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: on this hostile presentation depicting the worst aspects of prison
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: life and adult prisons with the hope that this terrifying
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: and disgusting experience would prevent crimes from happening by showing
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: kids don't do crime because it results in these terrible things,
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: and so you should be scared of what happens when
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: you do these terrible things, or when you do these
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: things that terrible things will happen to you.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's yes.
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: Now, apparently the word straight refers to in this case
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: refers to an honest, conventional life. I'm guessing from the
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: idea of the probably made straight and narrow path, Like
• 8:53
  Speaker 3: it's kind of derived from that. And we'll talk more
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: about the methods of scared straight in a moment, but
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: just know that that's kind of where they were, That's where.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: The label is likely to come from.
• 9:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was kind of curious, is like, why straight?
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: Why just scared?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know, scared lawbiding cooperative?
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly, like scared lawbiding, something of that nature.
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: And it seems to be that this that, particularly at
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: the time, would refer to a sort of conventional lifestyle,
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: conventional ev in nineteen seventies America. So the idea of
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: scared strait is rooted in what they call deterrence theory. Now,
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: calling it a theory is pretty generous. It's barely a hypothesis.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: I think the better name for it would be deterrence
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: wishful thinking, But I digress. It's written in the idea
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: of deterrence theory, which is probably a discussion in its
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: own right. But briefly, it is the idea that fear
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: of punishment and the threat of extreme consequences will effectively
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: promote choosing good behaviors because the cost and consequences of
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: bad behaviors is too high optimistically thinking. That's sort of
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: the rationale behind it, if you will right now.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: This little program was also the subject of a nineteen
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: seventy eight documentary film of the same and we say
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: documentary quote unquote of the same name plus exclamation point
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: scared straight. In the film, they show ten youths who
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: attend the program, and according to the filmmakers, nine of
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: the ten youths did not reoffend. There was no control group,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: no attempt to control the extremes variables, no experimental design whatsoever,
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: just a story.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, So they specifically picked some kids who had
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: gotten into trouble, and there was because they had gotten
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: into trouble. The then statistical hypothesis was they were likely
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: to get in trouble again, and so they're like, Okay,
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: they're on the wrong path. Let's show them what happens
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: if they go down this path. We will scare them straight.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: That's kind of the thinking behind this. If you will right, yeah, yeah, okay,
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: we'll get into while That is what it is. The
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: documentary was enormously successful as far as documentaries go. Like
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: you've probably heard them be like, I've never heard of
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: Scared Straight. I hadn't either until doing the research for this,
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: But for documentary, very very successful. It won an Emmy.
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: It rocketed the Scared Straight program to popularity across the
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: United States and later across the world. Thirty States immediately
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: moved to adopt some Scared Straight curriculum and the wake
• 11:30
  Speaker 4: of the documentary, which did lead to some congressional hearings
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: about the program, and of course a bunch of chest
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: pounding and people puffing up and getting all hot and
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: bothered about either four or against. But the documentary really
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: kicked off like a cultural wave around the world.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: As we'll see, you know how we know it's not effective.
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: Every single person that makes an ad for the show
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: had gone through the Scared Straight Program and they still
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: make ads. Okay, so we're talking about the Scared Straight Program,
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: and this had me thinking they had widespread popularity, lots
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: of states used it.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: But I was thinking of like a youth.
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: I was thinking about kids, and I was like, if
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: I ever got caught, I would have been in a
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Scared Straight program. They somebody could have put me in
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: a Scared Straight program because of my teenage behavior. Sure,
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: did you think that as you were going through this,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: did you think that you could have been somebody who
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: was put in this program based on your risky behavior?
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: It did occur to me. Yes. And the other thing
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: that was occurring to me is what they might consider risky, because,
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: particularly if we're thinking about the mid nineteen hundreds in
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: the United States, this was a time that was aggressive
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: against people who were left leaning broadly, Like we're sort
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: of in McCarthyism here. So if you had any ideas
• 12:49
  Speaker 4: about communism, if you I think if you expressed any
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: sort of civil liberties thing that could sort of put
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: you on the radar as like a radical to be
• 12:59
  Speaker 4: on the lookout for. Yeah, I think being gay could
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: have possibly targeted you for Like there's a whole discussion
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: about like what even is crime, Like it's something we
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: decide sort of culturally is something we're going to punish,
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: but it's not inherently anything. And again, being gay was
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: a crime in some places for a while, so like
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: if we think about like people who are targeted for delinquency,
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: I was like, what does that even mean? And yes,
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: it did occur to me that like I could have
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: been one of those, Like, you know, I was into
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: skateboarding when I was a teenager and all of that,
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: so like I could definitely see that that that could
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: have applied to me.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I was thinking about it. I was like,
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: I could have definitely ended up in one of these
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: these programs. Yeah, but I was a straight A student,
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: so maybe not.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: Playing punk bands, Yeah, I.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: Played in punk bands. I was a loudmouth. We were
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: getting kicked out of pools all the time. Oh yeah,
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: I could have had some prisoner yell at me at
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: some point time.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: Now, this program has been further adopted in several countries
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: around the world, such as Canada, Australia, Germany, Norway, the UK,
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: and of course, the.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Good old us of A.
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: They've even adopted a specific type of summer camp, the
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: inspiration for Friday thirteenth. Maybe I don't know in which
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: parents send their children. Presumably children believe to be at risk,
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: and so they would send them off and they would
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: have this like work camp experience, if you will, right.
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I was thinking, I was like man with Friday
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: the thirteenth, This this whole like retribution for doing sinful things,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: like that's the whole premise of the first movie. Yeah,
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: at the summer camp. So I was like, I think
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: there's overlap here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: You know you don't want your program to overlap with
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: Jason Vorhees is all I'm saying.
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: Probably not healthy. You're on the wrong path. If your
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: choice is let's start acts murdering children, then you've gone
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: on the wrong path.
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: If your packet of materials comes with a hockey mask
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: in a machete, this is not a This is not
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: a therapeutic program.
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, we digress. The let's discuss hear the method
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: of this, the Scared Straight program, what it includes. So
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: you're thinking, oh, right, you're sold. I want you want
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: to send your kid to a scared straight camp and
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: you're like, sign me up, let's go.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: What should you expect. Well, they send these delinquent quote
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: unquote delinquent children, often to real prisons, and they might
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: go there on visits for up to one to three days.
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: They will have what they call these rap sessions, and
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: in these it's not actually them attempting to rap, which
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: would be funny, but it's instead conversations. It would be
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: more fun too. The conversations really just dialogues, sometimes monologues,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: but in these the prisoners will lament the horrors of prison,
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: and as described in the literature, they might use rough language,
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: so they're going to colorfully elaborate on the horrors of
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: prison and the consequences they have faced for their crimes.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a really great series of Snel sketches that
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: do this, that are very funny, and it's Keenan and
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: like you know, he brings in Charles Barkley or somebody,
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: and they just and it's like it's really funny to watch.
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: Oh, I need to watch this.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's great. You'll appreciate it because it really highlights
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: the absurdity of the whole thing.
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Nice, So the kids will get to tour the prison
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: and even be escorted to a cell where they might
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: be taunted and vitally harassed by hostile inmates. They will
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: also have sessions in which the inmates lament their poor
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: decisions and elaborate and exaggerate a detail the terrible things
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: they've done and the ways they've suffered.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes they'll have the prisoners. I mean, I don't
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: know if this is how Corey graft this is, but
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: the prisoners might break down and cry and be very vulnerable.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: They might have them be sort of angry and violent.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: I don't think that they ever allow the kids to
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: actually come into like the potential for real harm. I
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: don't think. Yeah, but they do want to scare them terribly,
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: so they try and use all the methods they can.
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: And sometimes, as prisoners are like just sharing stories, they
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: may talk about the people that they've hurt and the
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: crimes that they've committed. They might talk about the crimes themselves.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: But the one theme I saw consistent throughout the descriptions
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: of these is that it was almost always exaggerated, over
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: the top, not nuanced, and left out anything that could
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: possibly be interpreted as good. So it was always just
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: like the most extreme cases of things or what they
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: would try to present to have this effect of it
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: actually being terrifying on kids.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, most definitely.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: All Right, so so far you hear this and you're like, yep,
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: sounds good, this has got it. This sounds like an
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: awesome program. We're fully on board. Yeah, but you know, fortunately,
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: there's been a bunch of research. So let's get science.
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: Ye everybody, ooh, let's get scientist scientists.
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: Yes, that sounds great.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: So the research conducted in support of Scared Straight programs
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: never have control groups. They never do random aside are blinding,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: and to be fair, sometimes research in some areas with
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: human behavior can be difficult to do. So this may
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: be one of those things that's very difficult to do
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: because you're talking about predicted behavior, like future behavior that
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: hasn't happened yet. Right, Like they're saying, is this program
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: effective based on the idea that this kid never goes
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: to prison? And there may be lots of other factors there,
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: but we'll umpact that. But yeah, it's difficult to study.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: It can be difficult, and so maybe that was why
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: they were not doing very good experimental design and research
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: can be costly, and the people who promote these programs
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: often can't afford to actually fund like legitimate long term
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: studies that would yield actually scientifically rigorous information, so instead
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: they rely on pre post data at best from just
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: the groups who participated, usually within a limited timeframe. A
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: common one I saw was three months after the program.
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: I did see one that went up to twelve months after.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: And then they also use some fairly generous definition about
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: what it means to be delinquent versus not in such
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: a way that they were likely to get the outcome
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: they wanted to get.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: But fortunately researchers have found a way, and there have
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: been many randomized control trials or RTCs since the nineteen eighties,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: so that there is a clear evaluation of the data
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: using scientifically rigorous methods. So what we're saying is is that, yes,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: human behavior can be very difficult to study, and programs
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: like this could be difficult to study. However, scientists have
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: found a way and there are data, Yeah, there are data.
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: Amazingly they could still study it, yeah, and they did.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: Now there are, as we mentioned, quite a few studies,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: and we could go through them one by one, but
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: as it happens, some researchers very generously went through and
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: read all that research for us. They compiled all available
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: data into what's called a meta analysis, and that now
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: allows us to get a nice clear picture of all
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: available data, all aggregated in one place, distilling the information
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: into a large scale analysis to get a nice cohesive
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: understanding of our phenomenon of interest.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: M hm.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: So in the two.
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: Thousand, Petrosino and friends conducted a meta analysis of nine
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: randomized controlled trials of Scared Straight programs? And did they
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: find that Scared Straight program successfully reduced crime? Would we
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: be here if they had the answer to both is
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: no with an exclamation point, just like Scared Straight.
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So, as you were just saying, they looked at
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: all the available research, that compiled the data, and their results,
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: to put gently were was that Scared Straight did not
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: reduce crime. That's the nice way to say it. To
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: put it bluntly, not only did it fail to reduce crime,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: and rates of reoffending crime actually increased between one and
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: twenty eight percent for the kids who participated in the
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: Scared Straight program relative to the non participant control group.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yikes, it's the dear phenomenon. It is.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: It is the their phenomenon. Yeah, your worst case scenario
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: are hoping for is that it's at least not worse,
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: that it's like as bad as the control group. But no,
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: it actually significantly increased rates of crime.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Unbelievable.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: So okay, so maybe maybe we're looking at this wrong, right,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: So we'll try it again. So in two thousand and two.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: In the year two thousand and two.
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: Petrosino and friends published a formal review which also found
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: that Scared Straight programs increased crime and the likelihood of reoffending.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: So they did another study and found like, oh, yeah, yeah,
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: this is this.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: We confirmed it.
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: And they weren't done. A two thousand and three review
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: of published studies also found that Scared Straight programs were
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: more likely to increase crime than to deterret That is,
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: kids who were exposed to Scared Straight were more likely
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: to commit crimes than if they'd experienced nothing at all. Yeah, like,
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: say home and watch cartoons or go to Scared Straight.
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: To the same home and watch cartoons group will do
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: less crime. Then the kids go to the Scared Straight program.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, So unpack this for a second and let's
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: really think about this right, So maybe the time period
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: they we're talking about two thousand and two thousand and three.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: Up until that point, people were upset that TRL wasn't
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: doing very well. The Backstreet Boys were still doing pretty popular,
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: but like boy bands were kind of falling by the wayside,
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: Like you know, there's like lots of things happening in
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: the world.
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: Hillary Duff was on the scene.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Hillary Duff was on the scene.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: Nine to eleven happened, Like there's a lot of things
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: happening right now in the world that like maybe maybe
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: things have changed.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: So maybe we need some distance from this decade. So
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: let's go to two thousand and nine.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: So in a two thousand and nine study by Drake
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: and friends, they consider both the effectiveness and the cost
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: of the program.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: They found that not only did Scared Straight.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: Programs increase recidivism or reoffending rates, they cost at the
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: time seventeen four hundred and seventy dollars in recidivism costs
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: per participant who went through the program.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: So not only did it.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: Likely result in re recidivism, and like reoffending, it costs
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: taxpayers money to have kids go through a program in
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: which they are more likely to do crime afterward and
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: then are arrested for which taxpayers also have to pay
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: for to house them in the prisons. It's a win
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: win situation for people who love losing money.
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's like doing the Scared Straight program meant
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: there was more crime, which means that it cost taxpayers
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: more money to manage that crime. So yeah, imagine the
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: advertisement for a Scared Straight program goes something like this.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: We're back as we discovered that Scared Straight programs have
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: been increasing crime, which is increasing the cost of law
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: enforcement to do their job and costing taxpayers more money
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: at least a core to all of the available research
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: up through two thousand and nine. So in twenty thirteen,
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: Kim and friends published a study in the International Journal
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: of Police Science and Management, and they reported in their
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: article that Scared Straight programs increased recidivism rates for the
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: experimental group participants relative to non participant groups. So just
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: more research unpacking what has happened in Scared Straight programs
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: again finding that where this has been applied, participants who
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: were in the group that experienced Scared Straight were much
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: more likely to reoffend than if they did nothing at all.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, Now, Finally, in a twenty twenty study,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: the researchers conducted a component analysis of these Scared Straight
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: programs to see what, if anything, did or didn't work.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: For those of you who don't know, component analysis is
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: looking at the parts of a program to see which
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: parts of a treatment package or intervention package are effective
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: in what aren't. Like, the idea is that you can
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: kind of cut the fat and save some money and
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: save some time where you're not using parts that don't work.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, So they determine and that nothing about it worked,
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: except that there was a statistically significant decrease in anti
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: social attitudes. That is, participants were more likely to report
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: that crimes were wrong, even while they were more likely
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: to commit crimes.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: So there's that.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: I guess they can verbalize they're doing something wrong, which arguably,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: in the court of law they know they're doing something
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: wrong and they're doing it anyway, that won't make their
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: sentences worse.
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: I was just gonna say, I was like, I think
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: arguably things are worse if they're like they're more sociopathic seeming,
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: if they're like, Okay, I got it, I understand what
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: I'm doing is wrong. Now I'll go do it. Yeah.
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's not going to benefit anybody in the situation.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: So that was there. They're like the argument there was like,
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: maybe Wall, do you need more nuanced conversation. I'm like,
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: do we know? I think yeah, I feel like where
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: we're good.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: I even found an official policy statement and a government
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: document that says, quote, this is a direct quote Scared
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: Straight programs are ineffective and likely to be harmful to
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: public safety. So you hear that and you're like, okay, yeah, sure,
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: some liberal, free loving hippie who just wants peace and
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: love said this. Nope, the exact opposite of that. In fact,
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: this came from the Florida Department of Juvenile Justice.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which has been the right place, which has been
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: read for twenty five years. Yeah, just so everybody is
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: aware of that, that is a very conservative department.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, even the cops know this program is absolutely garbage.
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: That's where we're at.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, unbelievable.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: So, but just like dare, these things tend to persist, right,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: So what does the future of Scared Strait look like?
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: So after a complete failure.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: To produce crime and actually significantly increasing crime like doing
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: the opposite of what it aims to do. People are
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: giving up on Scared Straight, right, they should, right, right, right, Abraham.
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: Of course, not, of course not these programs. Actually they persist,
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: And part of the reason that they persist is that
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: they have a lot of support among voters, which maybe
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: says a lot about those voters. Yeah, they continue to
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: elect officials who promote the idea of Scared Straight and
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: then promote policies that support it. They continue to send
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: their kids to Scared Straight camps and advocate for its
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: use in schools. There's like Scared Straight style anti texting
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: and driving, anti drugs, anti premarital sex, anti being gay,
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: if you're in Florida, lots of Scared Straight style approaches
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: to these.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: But no, it is.
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: It is alive and kicking.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: Now.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: There was a follow up documentary to the nineteen seventy
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: eight Scared Straight called Scared Straight twenty years later out
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety nine. This documentary did the same thing
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: as the first documentary, supporting the idea that Scared Straight
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: works despite two decades of research showing the.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: Opposite at this point, and they just persisted.
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: Yep, Okay, so that's part of the reason that they
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: continue to have the public on the side is the
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: media's portrayal of this has been exceedingly positive. The first
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: documentary the second documentary. In twenty eleven A and E,
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: the network ran a revitalized docuseries called Beyond Scared Straight
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: with the tagline in prison for a Day to stay
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: out for life, which of course followed the same path
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: as the original documentary and follow up documentary, in which
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: in this show, kids are sent to a prison for
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: a day and they are then traumatized at this prison
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: in the hopes that it will keep them out of prison,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: and of course the show reports great success falsely. Yeah,
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: and it ran for nine seasons.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, because you know what, you know, there's there's no
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: better reality TV than watching prisoners yell at kids, like yeah,
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: that's what.
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: He really at the here for.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, none of us wanted the Brett Michaels Rock of
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: Love stuff like that was just that was just the
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: appetizer to watching kids get yelled at.
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: That's the reality that we love.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So why do we even have keeping up with
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: the Kardashians anymore? Put put this back on, Like we
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: just want to see kids get yelled at So in
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, Vice ran a mini documentary episode on a
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: program called Hate Thy Neighbor, in which children are sent
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: to a prison camp as a deterrent against possible future crime.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah. So the media spin here has been like flagrantly
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: in favor of the idea of scared straight programs. Right
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: for the people who are keep producing and running these shows,
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: the powers that be, because this has the public support,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: and the media is sort of carrying this onward. The
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: people who are making these films, the powers that be
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: push a lot of very successful propaganda to give convince
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: people of these strategies. They feed them their right wing, righteous,
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: fear loving bullshit that their viewers gobble up and cheer at,
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: and then they go out and support these programs. So
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: that is why they are still here.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: Right And so unfortunately these programs are alive and well
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: and causing tons of kids to do more crime than
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: they would have otherwise done, and costing taxpayers more enormous
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: amounts of money in law enforcement to deal with it.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: So it's actually made every system that touches it worse.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: So thanks, guys.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: So that's where we find ourselves in terms of how
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: this has continued to persist. Why it continues to persist
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: and what is going on there? And yeah, it is
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: a way to ensure that we keep our private prisons
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: well stocked. Yeah, scared straight forward so far, I'd be
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: willing to bet that prisons are at least in part
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: like private prisons have at least in part helped fund
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: some of these like portrayals and these media shows, because again,
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: all they want is bodies and beds. So the more
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: the more crime that's happening, the better for them.
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. One PC.
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: It's weird that, you know, you think about how we
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: might want our society to be. You think, like where
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: do we incentivize certain behaviors, and incentivizing crime feels like
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: a bad idea.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really strange thing. And it's really strange.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: To kind of like because I've worked, I've worked in
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: private prisons. I contracted for a year in a private
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: prison that was a juvenile detention center in Florida. Wow,
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: I gotta say that place is pretty punishing by itself.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: They don't need a lot of extra help.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's unfortunate that like the entire system is
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: really based on having people there. I mean, it really is, yeah,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: and disproportionately. Sure, Yeah, you know, the the amount of
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: black and brown kids that were there comparatively was absurd
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: in an area that was predominantly white, and you kind
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: of like you're just like, sure, of course is the case.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: It makes sense that prisons disproportionately populated like that. So
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of unpack with it, and it's unfortunate that,
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: like we are spending so much money on a program
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: that is effectively designed to put more people in these
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: places and not take them out.
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and like they and again the people people profit
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: by them ending by other people ending up in prison,
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: you know. So like again, we just think about where
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: are we putting, what kind of behaviors are we incentivizing
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: and reinforcing and why.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: And we could talk about like work programs that exist
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: and how like prisoners are paid to work, but they're
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: paid measly amounts of money to go in their commissary,
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: like if they get paid at all, Like they get
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: paid to reduce their sentences. So like people are I mean, comparatively,
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: people are saying it's like modern day slavery where it's
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: just like it's legal in the space where like you've
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: got free labor out of people who are being incarcerated
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: and have no freedom to leave those situations. So like
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: it's an overall bad situation.
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: Yes, it is so okay. Understanding that and the fact
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: that we're like a psychology podcast, we talk about the
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: things that humans do and non humans. As I like
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: to say at the beginning of these we want to
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: then bring in the sort of behavioral scientific view here,
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: thinking about how we would we would conceptualize these programs.
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: Would they work, could they work? Should they work? What
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: makes sense in terms of in terms of how we
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: go about trying to support I guess deterrence preventing crime,
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: criminal behavior from developing and unpacking this and here's an
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: advertisement for that.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Here we go.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: All right, we are back. So, as I said, we
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: we've been discussing, you know, a bit, the history of
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: Scared Straight, the research behind Scared Straight, the media that
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: has really helped carry these programs onward, even though it
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: is so bad that even the cops don't like it,
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: which is very surprising. I also found like a there's
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: like a college police thing that also talked about how
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: it didn't work. That's just like all law enforcement agencies
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: seem to understand that this doesn't work. But let's look
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: at this from the behavioral scientific view, why would this
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: work or not work? And forever ago we did an
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: episode on punishment, and so punishment by definition does work,
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: but it does like you should hear that in question,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: what do you mean by work? What is work? Rain here?
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: And essentially in this case, what we're saying is it
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: effectively decreases an existing behavior to a point. So, just
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: as sort of a quick recap on the discussion of
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: punishment that we did, is that, like, by definition, punishment
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: effectively reduces behaviors where it exists, right, but major caveats.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Yes, So, as we point it out in the episode,
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: if behaviors are occurring, there's already a schedule of reinforcement
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: supporting them, particularly in the real world. A punishment adency
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: is then superimposed over an existing reinforcement schedule without also
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: removing the reinforcement, in which in many cases is impossible.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: So because of that, when you think of like real
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: world examples, if you're not removing the motivating operations, if
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: you're not removing the actual reinforcement that's available, punishment is
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: just a new kind of consequence contingency that's looped in
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: with all the existing things. You have a history of
• 35:31
  Speaker 4: reinforcement for a pattern of behavior, you have motivation for
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: those behaviors, you have now a repertoire that has developed
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: with those behaviors, and you're trying to say, well, let's
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: just throw a bunch of punishment at it and hope
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: that that makes it stop. In that way, it's just
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: not very effective. It is expensive, it's usually cruel in
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: its actual application, and particularly at a policy level, like
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: in those spaces, it just doesn't do what you want
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: it to do. It doesn't work very well. It's or targeted,
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: it's not very consistent. It's just cruel for the sake
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: of being cruel, Like they legitimately it is like just
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: based on the idea of retribution, schadenfreude. It's like, let's
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: see these people suffer. That seems to be more how
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: punishment is often used in these sort of spaces.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and further threats of punishment are not the same
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: as actual punishment and do not work at all, especially
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: if there is no follow through or at least distant
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: follow through.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So, like a lot of times, what these scar
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: straight programs are basing themselves on are basing on threats
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: of punishment.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: If you do this, you will go to jail.
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: If you do this, this will happen, threats, punishment, hypothetical threats,
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: and creating these contingencies that may never happen. Yeah, right,
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: because there's several crimes that can happen from that point
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: in until then that contact reinforcement and never contact the
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: law enforcement space. And no prisoner can guarantee that somebody
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: will commit a crime and go to jail, like, they
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: do not have the power over that contingency. So like
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: I've seen plenty of times where somebody is committed a
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: crime and.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Never gone to jail. Sure, so let me be clear,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: I did not witness crimes.
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: I was there, I was doing the crime myself.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: I saw it. I saw it, man, So the people
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: please even show up.
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: So any behaviorists worth their salt would never have suggested
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: such a program like it doesn't make any sense. It
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: does not involve the behavior of interest or actual consequences
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: for any real behaviors. There are contingencies that are out
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: of our control across the board. It's just maybe maybe
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: information that somebody could use to make decisions about their
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: behavior and that's it.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: And kids are not stupid. They often see through the
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: sort of transparently exaggerated claims that are made in these spaces,
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: so it feels like you're tricking them, but they are
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: way too smart to be tricked by that kind of thing, right,
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: And to be clear when we say that, like, if
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: we're thinking from a behaviorist perspective, they're not actually doing
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: any behavior of interest or not contacting any actual consequences
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: that is stuff that would have efectively shape behavior. That
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: does not mean that we're advocating that kids go do
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: actual crime or like face any actual consequences for doing crime. Right,
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: that's stupid. The behavioral strategy is to analyze and understand
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: the conditions that give rise to crime in the first
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: place and address those conditions and systems to reduce the
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: likelihood that crime will ever start. A huge amount of
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: crime happens when people are desperate, and so one way
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: to prevent crime is to make sure that people have
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: what they need. If you think about how often it's
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: the case that people engage, like do criminal things out
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: of desperation, it is a pretty It is a lot.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: We don't know how much, but it is a lot.
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: If they just had what they needed, they would have
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: never done those crimes ever to begin with. So if
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: we address that, that will reduce a certain proportion of
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: crime that happens.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: And when we say what we what they need, we're
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: talking about resources, We're talking about skills, we're talking about
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: pathways for safety and quality of life like, we're talking
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: those things. Yeah right, We're not just saying like we're
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: not just saying do they have enough food? We're saying
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: all the things that go along with this that make
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: it so that somebody has a quality of life that
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: they can thrive in.
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: Right, And do they have enough food? And do they
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: have enough food?
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Of course?
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: Of course, that's part of the larger paradigm. Right, So
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: we can do some things like this, right, provide mental
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: health support harm reduction programs for people who struggle with
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: addiction or other mental health issues, and that will further
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: reduce the likelihood of engaging in crime. We actually know
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: that harm reduction programs are more effective than punishing somebody
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: for having an addiction. Yeah, right, And between those two things,
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: there are very few instances for which crime will even
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: still occur at that point in time.
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Like honestly, I don't know how much. But the
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: enormous amount of crime that happens happens around things like drugs,
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: It happens around some addiction issues, it happens on mental
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: health issues, it happens around desperation. You address those. There's
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: not very much left, right, There's probably a little but
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: like that will take care of most of it, and
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: probably in some cases all of it. But what little
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: crime is left, then we engage in some basic deterrence things,
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: ensure that things are locked, that that are well lit
• 40:08
  Speaker 4: with you know, that are well illuminated, that we've got
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: cameras around, and then that will also further reduce attempts
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: for crime. And so like we attack it from those angles.
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: You've got a pretty good handle on things. That is
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: sort of the behaviorist perspective here, and thinking about like
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: how do we reduce crime, we address the conditions that
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: give rise to crime.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: Right, So, I mean, at this point in time, scared
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: Strait was a failed hypothesis from the jump, with no
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: real potential to ever succeed. It is rooted in incorrec
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: assumptions about human behavior and informed by nothing but wishful thinking.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: Not only has it never worked, It will never work.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: It can't work because it is wrong about how behavior
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: works in general. The science backs us up, as we've discussed,
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: and there's ample evidence to demonstrate that its attempts have
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: failed time and time again for decades and decades. It
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: is the They're phenomenon again and again, over and over again.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: It's basically a program saying don't do this, and the
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: kids go, yeah, but I'm gonna and it never works.
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, you think about the again
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: conditions under which people engage in crime with in these
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: kids and it's like they've got maybe people around them
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: who are pressuring them. They actually get to see what
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: some of these situations look like, and they're hearing you
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: say that it's not that bad, but they're seen around them,
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: thanks are okay, Like yeah, Also, you're not necessarily always
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: going to get caught just because these people get caught.
• 41:37
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of people who don't get caught. And
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: I don't know, there are lots of things to consider
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: here in terms of like, it just does not work
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: the way that it's supposed to work. What I recommend,
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: if you're going to try and show them anything is
• 41:50
  Speaker 4: show them what happens, Like show them the good stories
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: about people who did the right thing in life turned
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: out well for them, right, you know, it's like show
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: them what is possible by being successful and like and
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: working hard to do well and take care of yourself
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: and like and really I guess just commits to succeeding
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: and like doing as well as you possibly can. And
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: then aside from that, like again, like let's make sure
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: that people have what they need and that there is
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: support for mental health and addiction issues, and crime will
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: kind of be just less of an issue overall. Right
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: in those situations. Again, I think there will still be
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: some there's still going to be some motives, there's still
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: going to be some opportunities, but that will address a
• 42:33
  Speaker 4: huge amount of it. Agreed, All right, well this is
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: kind of short for us. We got to the little thing.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's easy.
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: I think it's easy to do a short episode when
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: there's like no backing for the thing that we're talking about.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: Right at the end of the day, it's like there's.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: Not enough evidence to even have a nuanced discussion about
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: this at the end of the day.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: It just doesn't work.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Right, there's like I like those episodes where like
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: sometimes we're like, well it could work, and here's in
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: the circumstances it does work, and da da da da da,
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: And this one's like, absolutely not. This is a full
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: debunking episode that has demonstrated that this does not work. Yeah,
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: so like, why spend more time on it when it's
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: like clear into synct it just doesn't work. So stop
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: doing it, stop funding it, stop voting for people who
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: like it.
• 43:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, we did the whole uh when we did DARE,
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: And that was a fairly easy takedown that did have
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: a lot of nuance though, and it was like, you know,
• 43:21
  Speaker 4: there are a lot of people who still like DARE,
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: the DAAR program exists. There's still some like some people
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: trying to support it with evidence. They've been trying different
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: approaches to how they do it, et cetera. But it
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: was still like, you know, we could point to all
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: the things that didn't work, and it was fairly straightforward.
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: We did the absinence only education evidence is pretty clear.
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: Everyone sort of saw, like this thing doesn't work. Still,
• 43:42
  Speaker 4: there was some nuance, and they were like a lot
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: of times when you did your actual scientific comparisons, there
• 43:46
  Speaker 4: was just no difference between the groups. Right, Although there
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: were some cases where things got worse for the people
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: who went through absence only education, a lot of times
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: it was like, there's no difference. This was the easiest
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: takedown we've done so far, because right, no oh one
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: is on board with this, Like anytime they've ever done
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: anything remotely resembling scientific rigor, it has failed spectacularly, not
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: only to produce any meaningful changes in the desired direction,
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: but it actually promotes crime, which is wild. It's wild
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: that it's so ineffective that it actually increases harm and
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: reduces public safety. Like that's how bad this program is.
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: And even the cops don't like it, Like that's that
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: you really.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Are Like that's damning.
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're if you're like pro cop prevention strategy
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: has cops against you, then like you have really truly
• 44:37
  Speaker 4: failed spectacularly, So like, yeah, you're right, there's there's just
• 44:41
  Speaker 4: there's they had no legs to stand on, and again,
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: like there was really no way that it could be successful.
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: It was designed poorly with incorrect information, so absolutely recipe
• 44:52
  Speaker 4: for disaster right there. All right, well that's what we
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: have to say. I think about scared straight. If you'd
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: like to tell us your experiences with Scared stra or
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: tell us something add something that we missed, or whatever
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: we look forward to hearing from you. Email us directly
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com, or reach us on
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: the social media platforms. But anything you'd like to add
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: an addition to that before we get to our recommendations.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Nope, not this time, beautiful.
• 45:17
  Speaker 4: Well I will tell you then if you're a new
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: person here, we are not quite done with this because
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: at the end of all of our discussions, we recommend
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: some things and it's fun and you get to hear
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: our thoughts on stuff and it's just you know, some
• 45:28
  Speaker 4: off the cuff fun banter that we do. So check
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: that part out first, though. I will tell you that
• 45:33
  Speaker 4: if you do like what you hear and you'd like
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: to support us, you can head over to Patreon and
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: there you'll get some ad free episodes, bonus content, other things,
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: and mostly it helps us be a podcast, and that's
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: what we really appreciate. But I think what really everyone
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: is here for is at the end of the day,
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: at the end of our full length discussions, I will
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: read your name, so giant thank you to everyone who
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: has helped us out over on Patreon. Our current supporters
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: Mike m Megan Mike T, Justin, Kim, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: Thank you all so much for helping us be.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: A show always the best.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: If you join them, then I will read your name
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: too if you do. If you would like to support
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: us in non financial ways, you can leave us a rating.
• 46:12
  Speaker 4: Just click those five stars. That pushes the algorithm out
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: to more people, which is very helpful to us. Leave
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: a review if you're feeling inclined. We we love it
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: when we get those nice reviews. You can also tell
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: a friend and grab their phone and subscribe to our
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: podcast on their phone, and then they will also be
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: able to experience the same joy you experience. So that's
• 46:33
  Speaker 4: that's that's also a way to do it. Thank you
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: so much to my team of people for helping me,
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: without whom I could not make this episode. Writing and
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: fact checking from Shane and myself. Thank you for recording
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: with me today.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Shane, thank you for having me.
• 46:44
  Speaker 4: Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson and our Empire
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: Emperor editor executive new hoster. A new host is Justin,
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: who is the best, So thank you justin for yeah,
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: stepping in for a little prank today, and also for
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: all of the editing that you do.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're the best.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: All right? Is there anything that I am missing or
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: anything you would like to add before we make our recommendations.
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: Nope, I guess we can add an ad Oh we can, Sorry, folks.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: Okay, we're back with the fun part, which is recommending things.
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: Cue the music.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Recommendations.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: I going to recommend a record. I think that this
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: is a record that scratches the itch of anybody who
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: enjoys like speed metal, virtuoso guitar work, but then also
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: like fat wreck punk, like surfer punk, like strung out
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: and no effects and stuff. This is a band called
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: a Wilhelm Scream and they have a new record out
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: called Cheap Heat. This is their eighth official full length.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: They put out a couple of records under their first
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: name called they were called Smacking Isaiah, and then they
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: decided to change their name to something a little bit
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: more serious, which was a will Home Scream, and they
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: started putting out some records under that name since two
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: thousand and four. Che Pete is a follow up to
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: their last record, which was Lose Your delusion, and it's
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: just it's just one of those things where it's like
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: it's like watching the Olympics. It's like you're watching people
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: perform at peak levels of human performance, and these guys
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: are unbelievable. Like I feel like, if you like good
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: guitar solos, good guitar work, incredible time signatures, great melodies,
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: like all the things that go along with just good bands,
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: they are just such a fun listen.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: So I strongly recommend this if you.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: If you want, if you don't want to listen to
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: the whole record, you want to dive into the first song.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: Tunnel Vision is a great place to start with this song,
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: this specific record. But everything they've done is great and
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: I'm super stoked about this record. I've been listening to
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: it non stop since it came out.
• 48:53
  Speaker 4: And sorry, when did it come out?
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: It came out in February, Okay, like late February. This
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: is a new, very new record.
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: Okay, gotcha for the year. So yeah, cool, very good.
• 49:02
  Speaker 4: I am recommending a movie. It came out last year.
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: It is an animated sequel. I've been recommending a lot
• 49:08
  Speaker 4: of those lately.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: I think it works so well.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: Anyway, this is Zootopia too. I really liked the first Zootopia.
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: I thought it was a lot of fun. It is
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: one of the more rewatched of the recent Disney movies
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: in my household, and when we went into this one,
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: this one takes place fairly soon after the end of
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: the first movie, and at least in terms of the story,
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: it's like a little bit down the road, but not
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: very far. And anyway, if you haven't seen the first movie,
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: suffice it to say, it's sort of about a bunch
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: of animals living in this large area where they have
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: this geographic place that's sort of a giant city I
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: guess parceled into different environmental regions for the various animals
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: that would live in those regions. So there's a cold
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: region and there's a desert region, and there's all kinds
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: of stuff. And anyway, the first movie is essentially a
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: crime caper where you have the main detective person solving
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: a crime, and this one starts off feeling like they're
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: just going to solve another crime, and I'm like, okay,
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: so it's just a buddy cop crime solve movie. Not
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: that interesting. Then it took a turn and went a
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: very different direction than I was expecting it to go.
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: It was really fun. It was very funny. I really
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: enjoyed the visual gags. They had a ton of references,
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: like there's there's a reference to Stephen Kings Shining and
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: a bunch of other Disney Pixar movies. And the voice
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: cast was remarkable how many cameos they were able to
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: squeeze into this thing, and then just it was just
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: a really fun time. Andy Samberg is a voice is
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: one of the main characters in the in the movie,
• 50:50
  Speaker 4: so I really enjoyed it. It sort of is another crime.
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: I mean, it is just not sort of it is,
• 50:57
  Speaker 4: but it takes a very different direction than I thought
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: it was going to go. And he goes sideways very
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: quickly and has the actor He was one who was
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Indiana Jones and then he got cast and everything everywhere
• 51:07
  Speaker 4: all at once, and that sort of revitalized his acting career.
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: And he seems like the nicest guy ever. I forget
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: his name, I recognize his voice right away as soon
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: as his character came up. He is also probably the
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: third most important character in this this movie.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: His name is Key Hui Kwan.
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: Yes, thank you.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: He's excellent. He's great.
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: In literally everything I've ever seen him in, and especially like,
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, if you don't know who he is, he
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: is Data and Goonies, right was he So he's yeah,
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: he's in Goonies.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: He's the kid with the he says the booty traps.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: Oh, and he was in Loki and he was in
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: everything everywhere all once. He's just great and every he's
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: such and he's so kind and like he's so humble.
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: He seems so wonderful. So yeah, yeah you should. Everybody
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: should watch everything he does.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: He's great.
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: Support him. Everybody should support him like they support Brendan Fraser,
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: like the same thing where it's like just a great
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: stand up dude, you know.
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that completely. He was also
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: in the movie I recommended a while back called Love
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: Hurts that sort of yes, yes, action comedy karate movie. Anyways,
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: Dutopia two very good. I strong recommend, so go check
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: that out.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Love it all right.
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: We spent so much time in recommendations. That was fun.
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: So that is cheap heat, not Chi Pete or GP
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: as our our subtitles thought, is what you said, GP,
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: But anyway, I Willhelm's scream it's an album. And then
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: d Utopia to the Disney movie Love It.
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: What a missed opportunity, by the way, for Zudopia two
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: to be called to Zopia. Yeah, it could have been
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: to Zopia, but you know, missed opportunities.
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, sort of like Zoolander and to Lander.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it was right there.
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: Anyway, that's what we have to say about those things.
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: I think I did all the other credit stuff, so
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: I think we're oh, yeah, that's it perfect. This is
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: Abraham and it's a Shane pour out.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: So yep, you've been listening to Why We Do what
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: We Do.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: going to WWD WWD.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: Podcast dot com.
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.