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Resource Report - 24 State Office of Public Defense · Resource Report

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Hello and welcome to Resource Report, where we
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share with you important information about local
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nonprofits and resource organizations that support
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the community we share, produced by Pathways
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to Agency. I am your host, Rainmaker. Today's
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guest is Larry Jefferson, Director of the Washington
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State Office of Public Defense. Here's Larry.
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I am here at the State Office of Public Defense
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downtown in Olympia, Washington with Larry Jefferson.
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And so can you please introduce what your position
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is and how did you come to be here? Well, I'm
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the Director of Public Defense for the State
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of Washington. Officially, I was appointed by
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the Supreme Court for this position, and they
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took a vote and happy to report that it was 9
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-0 for my appointment. We went through a process
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with a board. There were three candidates, and
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I was selected. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Wow.
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It was very amazing. It was not something that
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I ever expected. One day I was working as a public
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defender across the water here at Thurston County
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Public Defense, and I got a call that there was
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an opening. And I was feeling pretty successful
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where I was, but I thought, and I went to my
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paralegal, and I was thinking about running for
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prosecutor, and they were like, Thurston County,
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state of Washington. Thurston County, state of
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Washington. And I thought to myself, if I moved
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to the state of Washington, maybe I could do
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something. And that is make sure that public
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defenders are trained. So that was one of my
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main motivators for applying for this position.
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Go straight to the source. Absolutely. This organization
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is mainly an administrative organization because
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each county is separately responsible for public
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defense. So there's 39 counties. So that's 39
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different ways of doing public defense. And then
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you've got all the cities. So there are over
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200 and something cities, maybe 260 cities. And
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so they're each separately responsible. And so
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we have some ways that we're administratively
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connected, like with finances and things of that
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nature. This office was created in 1996 to fill
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in a gap around appellate council. So just the
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funding was just completely random. There was
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no one who was responsible for making sure that
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appellate counsel received compensation or got
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the information they needed. And so that was
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one of the first missions of this office was
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really to make sure that all those things were
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sort of standardized. Accountability. Yeah. Yeah,
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absolutely. Wonderful. That does a decent job
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of explaining what the State Office of Public
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Defense does. Is there anything you would want
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to add to that? Well, that's where we started.
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And so we are so much farther. So when I first
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got here, we had about 20 employees. As of today,
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we have about 80 employees. But we also contract
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with around 300 contractors around the state.
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in different things. One of our biggest programs
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is the parent representation program. And that's
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where the state comes in and basically tries
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to remove a family member, normally a child.
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And so we stand in and fight for that family.
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And so that program started off in one county,
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or actually in two counties, and then grew statewide.
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And it took from like 2006 to 2018 to become
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statewide. Now it's like a nationally recognized
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program. And so with that program, there's sort
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of some big things going on. One of the big things
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going on with that program is each contracted
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attorney has a caseload of, can be up to 80 cases.
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That's a lot of people. That is. We've worked
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with our current funding to reduce that to 65.
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And recently, the Supreme Court came out with
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an order that says in July that it should be
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45 cases. Forty -five case? Forty -five. Forty
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-five case. Forty -five cases. Absolutely. So
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that's going to mean big changes for those attorneys.
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It's just those cases are very complicated. Yeah.
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Take a lot of time. Got to do a lot of talking.
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And so we're excited about those changes. So
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we're going to have to ask for funding to. for
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that program. What is the difference between
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the state office and the county office? Well,
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the main difference would be, as far as I'm concerned,
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is there's a portion in our statute that does
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not allow the attorneys here, except under very
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limited circumstances, to practice law. So, for
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instance, I can't take clients. All right. And
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one of the reasons for that could be, well, then
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I'd have to take clients all over the state.
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Right. And so we don't have the capacity to do
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that. And the legislature hasn't indicated they
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want to fund that. Okay. And so the attorneys,
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for example, in Thurston County are the frontline
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public defenders. They're doing bail hearings.
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They're doing arraignment hearings. They're taking
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cases to trial. Our office, for example, with
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our parent representation program, we contract
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with attorneys to do the services. Okay. Right.
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In the different counties. In the different counties.
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All over the counties because you're over the
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states. All over the state. We also work with
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the state hospitals like Western State and Eastern
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State. And so it was very difficult for the county
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attorneys all over the state to get to those
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particular hospitals because they had cases sort
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of coming in the front door. And these are cases
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that were for those public defenders already
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completed. But for the people in the hospital.
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they still need to move through the different
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stages of the hospital. Like in East Trident
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and West Trident Hospital, you gain the ability
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to move around just the hospital grounds, but
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there's certain steps that you have to go through.
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Okay. And so now we have a group of attorneys.
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They know those steps and they know how to help
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their clients go through the steps. And as they
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go through those steps, they get closer and closer
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to being released. And that's the training that
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y 'all provide to help those attorneys. We also
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provide training. And so, like I mentioned before,
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that was one of the biggest reasons I wanted
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to come here. Yeah. Now, a couple of years before
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I came here, I started a small training program.
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And since that time, we've expanded it. So that
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program happens a couple of times a year for
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about 30 attorneys. And so we tried to focus
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on newer attorneys. who maybe haven't done a
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trial before, how to do an opening, how to do
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a closing. And to tell you the truth, I was not
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trained. So when I became a public defender,
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they just gave me 60 cases and said, have at
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it. And so my overall vision and dream is that
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one day, when you become a public defender, you
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go to a training first. You learn how to listen
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to clients. It can be hard to listen to someone
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who is in trauma. Yeah. And sometimes that trauma
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comes out in ways that feels disrespectful to
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you as the attorney. And instead of trying to
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take that personally, you're trying to learn
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where that comes from, how it affects different
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populations differently, and the things you need
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to do to have cultural humility. Because what
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we need to be able to do is to see everyone as
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the unique human being that they are. Empathize.
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Right. And so we are expanding our capacity.
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A week ago, we did our first training for attorneys
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who are experienced. So sometimes you need to
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relearn some things. Yeah. Or just hear some
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different ideas from around the state. Like,
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wait, you do that over there? We could do that
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here. And that would improve our practice. Or
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just having different ways. Because attorneys
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do things differently. And so we want to, mainly
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we want our public defenders to do this thing
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called object. The government has gotten involved
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in someone's life and that person generally doesn't
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like that. And so we've got to be the advocates
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and we can't expect the judge to like us. We
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cannot expect the prosecutor to like us or the
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witnesses. So it's not about being liked and
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that could be very hard. especially when maybe
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you're in a rural community and there's a limited
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amount of folks. And so you might see your judge
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at the grocery store or whatever. Yeah. And it's
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hard to be like, no, I'm going to object. But
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we want to teach people to do that and to really
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advocate for their client and get the training
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they need in order to execute. It's really hard
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to go against the grain, and that's really powerful.
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Yes. And one of the components of that is that
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we're committed to racial justice here. And there's
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things that have happened. The land that we're
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on was stolen from the people who lived here.
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I'm African -American and my people were enslaved.
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And then there are people who have done work
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and have never been compensated for that work.
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For instance, Chinese exclusion. There was a
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vibrant community here in Olympia that dissolved
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in the 1880s. And so there's never been any recognition
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for those things at a systematic level. And so
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those things are really affecting us in our court
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today about who's got opportunities, who doesn't,
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redlining, voting rights, all of these things,
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housing, education. All those things show up
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in our clients. And so folks that are having
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dysfunction, we tend to blame an individual for
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systemic problems. And so we really want to be
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there for that individual. We want to be there
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so that we can tell their story. Because if their
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story can be told, you can understand why they
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did something. One of the things I really didn't
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realize that I learned from our parent representation
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program is that mass incarceration starts at
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birth. It's also a denial of Indigenous people's
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rights. That's facts. And so we want to make sure
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that our agency knows about those things so that
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when those facts come up in a case, we can make
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sure that we are not. causing more harm right
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that we are taking the right steps and at least
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that if we have that knowledge and we share that
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with our client it doesn't mean that we can prevent
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the injustice all the time but it does mean it
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just makes a big difference when everyone is
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aware about what's happening And then we can
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take steps. One of my favorite programs in parent
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representation is working with women who suffer
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and families who are suffering with substance
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abuse. I think they should be able to make a
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phone call without getting in trouble about that.
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And so we've connected with, in six counties,
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we've connected with different clinics and hospitals
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where they can call us. We can come in immediately
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before a case is filed and help to resolve the
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situation. And that agency can still call CPS
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or the authorities. And so what we found is we've
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been able to reduce cases for people going into
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foster care in those particular counties around
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70 % to 75 % of the time. So those children are
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never separated from their mothers, and their
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mothers get access to treatment. So one day,
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I hope to expand that throughout the whole state.
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And I think it's something the whole country
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should do. Because why should we have to wait
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until a family member has been taken in order
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to provide a legal service? An ounce of prevention
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is worth a pound of cure. Right. And so that's
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one of the things that I think people have a
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misconception with about public defense. Okay.
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We're the one entity that gets to talk to everyone.
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So a person has the right to remain silent, but
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we get the opportunity to talk to them. If we're
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trauma -informed about how we talk to the individual,
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we can know whether they're amenable to different
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programs and things of that nature. One of my
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hopes is that we're going to change how we do
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domestic violence here in the state of Washington.
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Oh, good. And we're holding a restorative justice
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conference in April because there are some times
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when people who have been harmed don't want to
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prosecute in a traditional way. And so we need
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to have other ways that are victim -centered.
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so that they can get the healing they need. So
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why can't we work with our dispute resolution
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centers, our different YWCAs, and make sure that
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folks that have been harmed get the information
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they need so they don't get harmed again. But
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also then, once you've checked with that, you
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can check with the person that caused harm to
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see if they are safe in order to get the information
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they need so that this doesn't have to happen
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all the time. Let's go over those programs that
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y 'all have now, actually, the appellate program.
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Can you explain clearly what that is for people
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who may not know? That's our appellate program.
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And so when you take your case to trial and you
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lose, in the state of Washington, you have the
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constitutional right to appeal that case. We
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have a number of contractors that provide that
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service. And so that's where we have like our
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Court of Appeals and then our Supreme Court.
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And so what we want to ensure is that everything
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that happened in their trial is reflected in
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the record. We get those records. The attorney
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looks over those records and then spots issues.
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to appeal. And so that is the primary purpose
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of that program. In that program, there's issues
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with caseloads. And so there's currently a study
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out. And so those caseloads may be getting reduced
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or we may be asking for funding to reduce those
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caseloads for that particular program. You said
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study out. What's that mean? So there is a study
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to see how much time does it take for the attorneys
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to do certain types of appeals? Okay. And so
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usually one of the biggest factors is the transcript
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length. So if the transcript is like 2 ,000 pages
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or something of that nature, that might reflect
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that the trial took two weeks. It's going to
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take longer for the appellate attorney to read
16:08
all that information. There's going to be more
16:10
issues. That'll be more time consuming. We're
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trying to make some changes. Because for years,
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our caseload level was at 36, which is about
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three a month, which is unsustainable. In other
16:26
states, it's completely different. And so I'm
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looking forward to making changes in that program.
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One of the difficult parts of the office is getting
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a phone call where you have to tell someone that
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you can't help. That's hard. And so that is particularly
16:44
difficult. Yeah. When I first got here, we did
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not have a receptionist. Oh, my goodness. So
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that kind of told me that we didn't want you
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to call us because we don't have a receptionist
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to answer the phone. And so I really had to work
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to change that so that we had a receptionist
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because we want folks to call and we want to
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get these challenging questions. Yeah. Because
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sometimes that's how we move forward. That's
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how I learn is by getting an issue and going,
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we don't have this resource. And then turning
17:24
that into a program. areas we've been able to
17:28
do this is in our 5046 program. So after an appeal,
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you have the right to petition the court with
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something called the personal restraint petition.
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Well, in the state of Washington, you're not
17:48
entitled to counsel for that petition. So if
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you have money, you could do that. There's a
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lot of people that do them themselves, but they
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don't know how to do it right. And you can only
18:02
do it once. And once you do it once and you do
18:06
it wrong, you're not allowed to do it again.
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And then the folks that are really challenged
18:12
to do this after you've been found guilty, either
18:16
by plea or jury, and after your sentencing, you
18:19
have one year to file this paperwork. So when
18:22
you do it yourself, You have to learn everything
18:24
a lawyer knows, which is, I don't know, seven
18:27
years of schooling, right? Four years of college,
18:30
three years of law school, plus knowing about
18:32
PRPs. So maybe about 10 years of experience.
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You got to learn all that in one year, plus get
18:37
all of the facts from your case. The facts can't
18:40
be the same. They can't deal with the same issues
18:43
that were in your appeal. So there are issues
18:45
that are outside of your appeal that aren't on
18:47
the record. So that means maybe your attorney
18:51
didn't bring a witness. or that the judge committed
18:54
misconduct or that the prosecutor committed misconduct
18:57
that is in the record. It almost feels like they
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did that intentionally and make it hard for people.
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You know, I'm not going to comment on that. But
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what I will say is what we did is say we need
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to be able to take action here, especially what
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if you cannot, what if you're juvenile? What
19:20
if you can't read or write in English? What if
19:25
you have mental health issues? And so we have
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started a limited program where we look at those
19:30
factors and then we assign attorneys to help.
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I bet that's made a huge difference. Well, it
19:38
means that we're able to review things. And so
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we do have some issues with, I really want to
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do this work over here. But how do we keep to
19:47
our statute? So that's something that we're still
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struggling with. But it was an issue that came
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about because people called. And I just couldn't
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say no. And so we worked with the legislature.
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And it's a bipartisan because people believe
20:05
in the rule of law. And so that's what I find
20:09
to be, you know, really important. And then explain
20:12
the Blake program, what that is about. Well,
20:16
in April of 2021, the Supreme Court in State
20:20
v. Blake overturned all of the possession convictions
20:26
in the state of Washington that had been occurring
20:30
since 1971. The reason that it was overturned
20:35
was that it was a per se offense. So if you had
20:39
the drugs on you, you were guilty, meaning it
20:42
didn't matter what your intent was. Right. Somebody
20:46
could have planted it on you. Either someone
20:48
could have planted it on you or you could be
20:50
grandma, pick up drugs to put it in the garbage.
20:54
But because you were holding the drugs, you were
20:58
presumptively guilty. Wow. Unless you could prove
21:02
to the jury, hey, I really didn't know what it
21:04
was. And then the jury would decide whether they
21:07
believed it or not. Guilty till proven innocent.
21:09
Yes. So the Supreme Court said no. And so this
21:13
was one of the biggest days in my legal career
21:17
because we had all these people charged with
21:20
felony possession of narcotics. They were in
21:25
prison all all over the place. There's like 300
21:29
to 250 ,000 records of convictions that need
21:34
to be undone. And so it's just a massive overtaking.
21:38
So first we had to make sure we got people like
21:40
out of jail immediately. Second, we had to figure
21:44
out who was in jail. And nobody knew. Wow. So
21:49
this office was instrumental in creating that
21:52
list so they could get out. So there was a person
21:57
here in this office, Nicole Dodge. We figured
22:00
that out. And without Nicole and Thurston County,
22:03
for instance, we wouldn't have known who our
22:05
clients were that were in prison because that
22:07
information. That's huge. It was huge. Yeah.
22:11
And so. We received funding to help people get
22:15
resentenced if they needed to. We got money to
22:19
do outreach to communities, and we're still working
22:22
to vacate these convictions off of folks' records.
22:27
We're working with the Office of Administrative
22:29
of the Courts, and they've got an administrative
22:32
unit that can be invited to any community. And
22:36
so if that community invites them in, they'll
22:39
organize like a vacate day. And so I think in
22:44
Grays Harbor, I think they went to Grays Harbor
22:46
County, if I got it right. It did like 1 ,200
22:50
to 1 ,800 in one day. And that's amazing. We
22:54
have a new program in regards to, we call it
22:59
the Simple Possession Advocacy and Representation
23:02
Program. And it provides funding for all the
23:05
gross misdemeanor drug offenses. around the state
23:09
of Washington. And one of the things that some
23:13
county public defenders don't have are social
23:16
workers. So these social workers get involved
23:19
in these cases and they're able to deal with
23:22
the true issues that are going on. Because to
23:26
me, all crime is trauma. Find out what the trauma
23:29
is. Sometimes it's substance abuse. Sometimes
23:31
it's a different thing. But we get to ask all
23:34
those questions. So that's been a really important
23:37
resource that I'd like to increase. I think that
23:41
if a person is showing issues, we should get
23:43
them a social worker. Absolutely. And that social
23:45
worker should work with them. So what I'm trying
23:48
to do is increase our capacity in different programs
23:51
where we have social workers so that we build
23:55
up this network. So those are some of the things
23:58
that I'm kind of looking for and excited about.
24:01
That's wonderful. Wonderful. And then the disproportionality
24:05
advocacy. What is that about? Well, you know,
24:10
racism is alive and well in our society. Systematic
24:17
racism is alive and well. If you just look at
24:20
sentencing or if you look at any part of the
24:23
justice system, the darker your skin color, the
24:28
worse the results are. for you and the more convictions
24:31
and the longer sentences that people have. Yeah.
24:35
And so what that program is, is to how, how can
24:39
we combat this? How come, how can we come up
24:43
with different strategies? I don't know if you
24:45
ever called anyone a racist before, but that's
24:49
difficult to do, especially if you have to see
24:52
them the next day and they're your judge, the
24:54
prosecutor and, and, and those things. And so.
25:00
It's trying to, in my opinion, how much data
25:05
can we get? For instance, with juries. Yeah.
25:09
We know that with juries, the more multicultural
25:12
and diverse your jury is, the longer they tend
25:15
to think about things. Definitely. Right. And
25:18
so to me, everybody, including white people,
25:21
need diverse juries. Absolutely. So we need to
25:24
have juries that have everybody on it. And so
25:27
we need to remove the legacies. We need to come
25:31
up with ways that if there are people of color
25:34
in the jury, giving the attorney the ability
25:38
to go, we don't want this jury and having that
25:41
be OK so that we then get a jury that reflects
25:45
the demographics of the location. Right. And
25:49
also within that process, you've got some judges
25:52
that won't let you ask the race of the person
25:54
who's on the jury. But that's information we
25:57
need to know in case they get excluded because
26:00
historically, folks, people of color, or just
26:04
when I started, the prosecutors would make sure
26:07
that all the black people were off the jury because
26:09
they knew that if there are black people on the
26:11
jury, I might be able to talk to them. Or they
26:14
would take more time to listen to my story. There's
26:19
an assumption of, you know, people will think
26:22
racist thoughts. And that really is not always
26:26
the case. And you just never know who you're
26:29
dealing with. And that makes things difficult
26:31
to be fair sometimes. I think that it really does.
26:35
And I think that, you know, when we make assumptions,
26:39
it is the old adage. And so what we need to do,
26:43
especially in the law, is to ask questions. Yeah.
26:47
Instead of making assumptions, I do things like
26:50
jury questionnaires so that we can ask those
26:53
questions. you know, a way that people can answer
26:56
them truthfully without, you know, putting it
26:59
on the spot as much as possible. And then sometimes
27:02
because it's court, some people need to be put
27:04
on the spot. Right. It's court. It's adversarial.
27:08
And we know that going in. So I'm really proud
27:11
of that program. They're doing trainees not only
27:17
in the state but around the country. There's
27:20
a rule called GR 37 in regards to jury trials
27:23
and how jurors are selected, but basically allows
27:27
a judicial officer to take into consideration
27:30
sort of the history. And so if the exclusion
27:36
could be looked at in a historical way, meaning
27:40
that a person knows the history of racism and
27:44
that's how the exclusion could be looked at.
27:47
In the state of Washington, they can go, no,
27:48
we're not going to exclude that person because
27:50
there's been a legacy in history of race. Right?
27:54
So that's a way that we want to teach attorneys.
27:58
That's a way you can fight it where you don't
28:01
have to call your opponent a racist. And we can
28:05
take that off the table because that's not what
28:06
it's about. So I'm really proud of that program.
28:10
That is really wonderful. That really is good.
28:14
It just makes me feel so good to see that work
28:16
being done. Thank you. Let's see. Extraordinary
28:29
Criminal Justice Costs Act. Those are costs in
28:34
regards to, like, aggravated murders. And this
28:39
is just my opinion, and I'm not trying to make
28:41
a statement here, but I don't believe the counties
28:43
receive sufficient funding or have sufficient
28:45
funding. And so this is a way that when they
28:48
have an aggravated murder, and those cases could
28:51
take six weeks, eight weeks. It could take years
28:54
to prepare for them. This allows them to ask
28:57
for money and compensation if it exceeds a certain
29:01
level of their budget. And so that helps request
29:06
reimbursement for those cases. Yes. So it would
29:09
be the court fees are reimbursed. The attorney
29:13
time, the expert time, witness travel fees, all
29:18
those things. All right. Thank you. Thank you.
29:21
That helps clarify that. Forensic Civil Commitment
29:26
Program. That is the program involving McNeil
29:31
Island. All the folks there, they're called sexually
29:36
violent predator cases. I don't like that name.
29:39
I believe they're human beings. And so we contract
29:44
with different attorneys to provide services
29:47
for that program. That's also the program involving
29:53
Western State Hospital and Eastern State Hospital.
29:56
We call that Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity.
30:00
And so you get that finding, have to go to the
30:03
hospital, and then we represent those individuals
30:07
to help get them out of the hospital. And so
30:10
in the state of Washington, if that finding is
30:12
made, then you're going to stay at the hospital.
30:15
If it's Class C felony, you could stay up to
30:18
five years. If it's Class B felony, you could
30:21
stay up to 10 years. And if it's Class A felony,
30:24
you could stay for the rest of your life. And
30:26
so it's important. when people are at the hospital
30:29
is to move through those stages I talked about
30:32
earlier. Okay. And as you move through those
30:34
stages, hopefully you'll get out before your
30:37
presumptive maximum. And what we're finding is
30:40
that attorneys as a group did not know all of
30:45
the things about the hospital and how the hospital
30:47
works because they had other cases and they just
30:51
couldn't focus on their hospital cases. We've
30:54
changed that. Oh, good. And so now we just have
30:57
a group. And all they do is work on these cases.
31:00
And so now we've been able to help people get
31:03
out before those statutory maximums. There are
31:06
also issues with the doctors there. The doctors
31:09
didn't want to be responsible for saying that
31:11
this person is ready to move to the next level.
31:14
Oh. So in most of the cases where we've moved
31:17
them levels, it's been by agreement of the parties.
31:20
They just wanted to make sure that there was
31:22
an attorney there on the defense side that agreed.
31:26
with moving them to the next level, it takes
31:28
away their liability. All right. Okay. So just
31:32
having someone there has meant that more people
31:36
are moving up these levels. What that does is
31:39
that frees up hospital space because that person
31:42
isn't there anymore. So we've had some people
31:45
there that have been there for 20, 25 years that
31:48
we've gotten out within the last two years. Also
31:52
within that unit, they had to have a trial about
31:59
whether someone needed to be at the hospital.
32:01
And so it was one of the first trials in the
32:03
state of Washington to decide if someone needed
32:06
to remain at the hospital or not. And so they
32:09
kind of had to make up all the rules they went.
32:11
So that forensic civil commitment program to
32:14
me is pretty extraordinary. The other part of
32:19
that program involves the involuntary treatment
32:22
act. And that we have a really small footprint
32:26
in, but that's the treatment act where if someone
32:30
is found to be gravely disabled or mentally ill,
32:36
and maybe they're on the street or something,
32:39
there are certain stages. And so we represent
32:42
people at the 180 day stage at a couple of hospitals
32:46
in King County. And we make sure they're represented.
32:50
I was sure that. That we do what's necessary
32:54
to determine whether that person gets released
32:56
or not. It's my hope that we sort of expand that
33:01
program. That program is one of the limited programs
33:04
where I could practice. So we have the ability
33:07
there. Have y 'all worked with homeless clients?
33:11
Oh, absolutely. I wouldn't say that it's the
33:14
direct function of this office, but as a public
33:20
defender, constantly. And that problem has only
33:24
become greater and greater as our lack of housing.
33:29
It's the fundamental building block of life.
33:34
Everyone needs a home. It does come up in our
33:38
cases. For instance, in our parent representation
33:41
program, we have some parents that are homeless
33:43
and don't have homes. And so what becomes critical
33:46
is that housing, because sometimes It's only
33:50
the fact that they don't have housing, which
33:52
is interfering with their ability to parent their
33:56
child. And so no one should lose their child
34:00
just because they don't have a house. Right.
34:03
I mean, that just doesn't make any sense. It's
34:05
right. And so we do that work indirectly. But
34:09
as it comes up on a case by case basis, some
34:13
of the most important work we do for our forensic
34:16
commitment program. Is that when people get released
34:19
or when people are on from McNeil Island, people
34:23
can be sent to live in the community under conditions.
34:28
And we want to make sure that when that person
34:30
is sent out, they're ready to be sent out. We
34:34
also want to make sure that it's safe for the
34:36
community. Right. So there's just a lot of work
34:40
that has to be done because that's the exact
34:42
person that we don't want to be homeless. So
34:45
a lot of it is on that planning for what happens
34:49
when a person is released. So there's a big case.
34:54
So this office fundamentally supports people
34:57
having a home. Everyone deserves to have that.
35:02
I think it's fundamental to being a public defender.
35:06
You need to have the experience of having a client.
35:09
You need to have the experience of having someone
35:12
say, I really need you to help me. I think it's
35:15
necessary also to have the experience of having
35:20
a challenging case where you don't like the client
35:22
and where you find the professionalism to put
35:25
that aside. My favorite cases were working with
35:31
folks who were racist. And then they would have
35:35
this black attorney who was fighting for them.
35:37
And just to see their minds explode. But also,
35:40
it has an effect on the judge, the prosecutor,
35:44
and the jury. That's definitely a powerful learning
35:47
journey for everyone. I think that's part of
35:51
being a public defender. We're here for everyone.
35:55
And we leave no one behind. Yeah. And so our
35:59
Youth Access to Counsel program. Yeah. And before
36:04
that program, youth had the right to an attorney
36:10
just as much as an adult in the Constitution.
36:13
But they had no one to call. But imagine, I don't
36:19
know, just being 14, what do 14 -year -olds know?
36:22
And so what they did is they did studies to figure
36:25
out what do 14 -year -olds know about attorneys?
36:28
It's not a lot. It's the different misconceptions.
36:31
Also, it's really hard to challenge adults. And
36:34
so we had a lot of young people that were confessing
36:37
to things that they didn't do or talking when
36:40
they didn't need to. And so what this program
36:43
allows is it's a phone number that all police
36:46
have to call if they want to interrogate someone.
36:49
And so the youth is advised of their rights.
36:53
Now, we can't tell them what to say or that they
36:57
can't talk. We just advise them of their rights.
37:01
Most people, after hearing their rights, exercise
37:03
them, which is the right to remain silent. And
37:06
so we've gotten thousands of calls. And the attorneys
37:12
there are all experienced juvenile attorneys.
37:15
And they're also trained in crisis intervention,
37:18
suicide prevention. And so it can be really helpful
37:22
just to calm a young person down and help them
37:26
get through a situation. And in certain situations,
37:30
we can get people access. to counsel faster rather
37:34
than waiting. If there's a really sensitive investigation
37:40
that's going on, you can make sure they get access
37:43
to counsel so we don't have to wait. And so I'm
37:46
really pleased with that program. There are some
37:50
critics of that program because youth are exercising
37:54
their right to remain silent. And sometimes the
37:57
police were used to the youth just confessing
38:00
to things. And so that has created some issues,
38:04
which I think are issues around training. But
38:07
police officers may have a different point of
38:09
view. I don't do their job. Right. You have the
38:13
recruitment and retention for Rural Public Defense
38:16
Fellowship. Yeah, we just activated that program
38:19
this year. Yeah. This was our first year. We
38:22
had 12 fellows. We got them together in, where
38:27
did we meet? We met in Ellensburg. They got exposed
38:30
to experienced attorneys, and then they went
38:33
out to different locations, so 11 different locations
38:36
around the state. Two of the locations were tribal.
38:39
We also worked with the Black Public Defenders
38:42
National Association, so they sent two people.
38:44
We had folks from Oregon participate in the program.
38:48
It's a 10 -week program. It got rave reviews.
38:51
A number of them want to continue to practice
38:54
in those rural communities. I'd say about half
38:56
of them. I would say that... If the state changed
39:00
some things and decided to give some law school
39:02
world forgiveness, we'd probably have 10 new
39:05
attorneys. Wow. Well, seems like a little number,
39:09
but you have to start somewhere. Yeah. And so
39:12
I'm really excited. And we've already started
39:16
interviews for next year. Oh, that's wonderful.
39:19
And our recruitment team not only operates in
39:23
Washington, but I've been in Montana. In Oregon,
39:27
Idaho. And so we are trying to get attorneys
39:31
from all over the Northwest. And we won't be
39:35
shy about if we have to go to Florida or whatever
39:38
to make sure that we get attorneys for the state
39:40
of Washington. So I'm really proud of that program
39:45
and being able to set that up this year and have
39:48
it be so successful. And the Public Defense Improvement
39:51
Program. Yeah, that's in reference to RCW 10101.
39:55
It received funding, I think, the first time
39:58
in like 2005. It might have been, let's say,
40:03
$6 million at that time. In the 20 years from
40:07
that date, it was never increased until last
40:10
year. It doubled. So I really felt listened to
40:16
by the state legislature. Of course, we need
40:19
more money for public defense in the state of
40:23
Washington. But that allows that money to go
40:26
out around to the different counties. It also
40:30
is money for certain cities that are able to
40:33
apply for a certain amount of that. So we work
40:36
with those cities to get that funding. I guess
40:40
we have a culture of local control here in the
40:44
state of Washington, and we don't have a centralized
40:46
system. And so while I don't get to, I guess,
40:51
comment on that, What I will say is what I want
40:54
to do with the Office of Public Defense is with
40:57
each community make the business case that we
40:59
are their best solution, that we are public defenders,
41:02
and that when we are called to duty, we will
41:05
come and fight for folks. And that if we can
41:08
make that pitch to every community, they can
41:11
decide whether they want to use our services
41:14
or not. Okay. How is the State Office of Public
41:18
Defense affected by our state's government versus
41:22
our country's government? A lot of changes are
41:25
going on federally. Our parent representation
41:28
program is most affected by what's happening
41:31
federally. We received a fund. We call it 4EAT.
41:37
It's actually run by DCYF. And so it's a funding
41:43
source that goes from the federal government.
41:45
all over the state of Washington. But basically,
41:49
there's this thing called a penetration rate.
41:52
But basically, we get reimbursed from the federal
41:57
government based on how many hours we're working
42:00
on our parent representation program. And so
42:03
luckily, we have continued to receive that funding
42:08
throughout this last year. If we didn't receive
42:11
that funding, it would be around... maybe six
42:14
to seven million dollars that we would have lost
42:17
which would be a significant you don't have a
42:21
source to like replace that and we'd have to
42:23
go to our legislature in order to just keep our
42:26
current level of representation and so we have
42:31
continued to receive that money i don't know
42:33
when and if it may be cut off um I hope that
42:39
it's it's not and um Yeah, so that's our biggest
42:44
issue in regards to the federal government. We
42:48
don't have any other programs with the federal
42:50
government at this time. We did have a social
42:55
worker program that we were doing in a particular
42:59
county, but that program ended. And so that's
43:05
the issue with the federal government. You know,
43:14
I really like how your website is organized,
43:19
how all of the different documents for filing,
43:23
the information is clear. And I found that very
43:27
helpful, how you can just click a link and there's
43:30
your document right there. You can print it out.
43:33
But if people have extra questions, how can people
43:37
reach the office to ask more questions? And how
43:40
do people obtain forms, if online access is not
43:44
possible for them? So that's the overall big
43:49
commitment is that we work for you, and if you
43:51
call us, we're going to try to figure out the
43:53
thing. I personally have a phone hour between
43:58
8 and 9 in the morning where I am looking to
44:02
receive phone calls from folks that are currently
44:04
incarcerated. It's only one hour a day. I usually
44:08
take one or two calls a day at that time. But
44:12
I also set up appointments for folks to discuss
44:16
their legal issues. Most of the time, I'm going
44:20
to tell a person, no, we don't do that. But they
44:24
still need to talk to a human being. And my job is
44:27
to either figure out how do I create a new program
44:30
out of what this person has asked me, or how
44:33
do I get them to a resource that does provide
44:36
what they're asking for. I noticed the Resource
44:39
Hub, the Thurston County Resource Hub, is linked
44:41
on the website. And I'm very proud of that. I
44:45
worked at Thurston County before there was that
44:48
Resource Hub. As I was leaving and exiting, we
44:51
were dreaming about what that Resource Hub could
44:54
be. And so I've recently been able to go and
44:58
visit the Resource Hub. They have some incredible
45:02
fairs in August. You need to go when they do
45:05
that again. It's incredible to see a community
45:10
coming together and providing services for folks.
45:13
I think that we need to keep that capacity and
45:17
grow it and extend it. So I guess what I'm trying
45:20
to say is that we're going to try to be as helpful
45:22
as possible with getting people access. And so
45:26
the Resource Hub, is that somewhere that you'll
45:29
send people to go when you're not able to provide
45:32
anything? Absolutely. Absolutely. And really
45:36
what I want to get to the point is that if there's
45:40
something that happens in a person's life where
45:43
they think they need public defense, I want them
45:46
to call us. And then we can start trying to reduce
45:50
the harm. I don't believe in waiting. Yeah. Like,
45:56
you know, if you're taking action, you know,
45:58
if your drug court's really good, why do I got
46:00
to wait till I commit a crime to be able to get
46:02
into it? For sure. You've got a couple of hotlines
46:05
listed on your website, Voluntary Placement Agreement
46:08
and Youth Access to Counsel Hotline. We talked
46:11
about that one already. The Voluntary Placement
46:15
Agreement is where there are families that aren't
46:20
in court yet, but basically they're being told,
46:24
if you don't make some changes, we may come in
46:28
and take your child. And so before that hotline,
46:31
people didn't have anybody to call to discuss
46:34
whether they should enter into this agreement
46:36
or not. That's a very big decision. It's huge.
46:41
So now there's a hotline. There's some things
46:43
we want to improve from the hotline, meaning
46:46
that people will call and the attorneys in the
46:50
hotline will go, well, I want to help you. So
46:53
we want more funding so that the person can not
46:55
just make the phone call, but the attorney goes
46:57
and then taking next steps. And so, yeah. And
47:01
so we, you know, there's some people who volunteer
47:04
to take those next steps. And so I really appreciate
47:08
that. But that is, I think that hotline is really
47:14
important. And so I've seen all the way at the
47:17
very bottom of the website, there's a link for
47:19
whistleblowers. What's the Whistleblower Policy?
47:24
To me, when I see that policy, I think that that
47:30
is in regards to internal issues. So just because
47:35
I'm the boss doesn't mean that I'm the greatest
47:37
person in the world. It could be that I make
47:40
bad decisions. And people need to be able to
47:44
know about that policy so that we can get audited,
47:47
so we have procedures that are happening correctly
47:51
here. Everybody's got to be held accountable.
47:55
I'm making a bunch of decisions. and I need to
47:57
be held accountable for those decisions, are
48:00
members of my team. And I think this is very
48:03
important in regards to public defense. Like
48:06
I said before, I'm asking for people to object
48:08
to things that they see are wrong. And does that
48:12
extend to attorneys that they have been provided
48:17
through the Office of Public Defense? The whistleblower
48:22
policy, I believe, is more internally based.
48:24
Okay. But I think something that could be improved
48:29
is customer service in regards to, did I like
48:34
dealing with my attorney? Do I have a complaint
48:38
on my attorney? Okay. I think that that is critical.
48:42
That was critical for me when I worked in the
48:44
county. Because sometimes you don't get the right
48:49
perspective just talking to the attorney. complaints
48:54
can be very helpful in order to figure out where
48:56
there are issues and problems. And so I really
48:59
honored when people call me and say, I didn't
49:04
like the service that I received. And how can
49:07
people get involved? I saw that there were some
49:11
job opportunities and contracting opportunities
49:14
listed on your website. Well, every once in a
49:21
while, We get some new programs. And so we're
49:25
going to be contracting with HCA to help people
49:29
navigate the substance abuse systems. So there'll
49:34
be people who are trying to go to treatment,
49:36
but they might have a warrant or they might have
49:39
fines. And so we're going to be hiring a couple
49:43
of paralegals to help those navigators because
49:47
the navigators aren't used to legal processes. you
49:52
would think that there are people that already
49:53
exist to help those individuals. You're creating
49:58
a space for that now. Yes. Oh, that's wonderful!
50:01
I got future plans for that because, again, we
50:07
have people that are in visit, and sometimes
50:09
they have awards, and there is no particular
50:12
entity that is assigned to help those individuals.
50:17
I think that that's unfair. Closing those gaps.
50:19
I think we need to close the gaps so that when
50:22
they make the phone call, there's an entity and
50:25
there's a person that goes, I know the folks
50:27
in that county. I can get you set up with a hearing
50:30
so that you can get that addressed. So we're
50:33
sort of like the oil. Yeah. Right? Greasing the
50:37
wheels. Absolutely. But instead of greasing the
50:40
wheels for rich people, right, who have money
50:43
to do those things, they just hire an attorney.
50:46
We do it for everybody. I love that. Yeah. That's
50:50
a lot of good work there. Well, we have a lot
50:54
of contractors. So we had 80 people here, about
50:56
200, 300 contractors. So there's generally always
51:01
a little bit of movement. I like the idea that
51:03
we created there is the application pool so that
51:06
maybe there's not something open now, but we've
51:09
already got your application so that when something
51:11
does come. Right. There are some changes around
51:17
attorney bar licenses and how you get one. Really?
51:24
And so because there aren't enough attorneys.
51:27
And so what my hope is that one day this office
51:33
will be responsible for training folks. In Oregon,
51:39
you can do a specific program that can train
51:41
you to be a criminal defense attorney. If you
51:43
complete law school and then 250 hours, you don't
51:46
have to pass their bar exam. You just have to
51:48
have mentored, right? And you can do that work.
51:52
I have a vision there's a lot of folks who are
51:55
in the Department of Corrections right now who
51:58
would make great paralegals. Well, who are great
52:02
paralegals, but they would make great ones on
52:04
the outside, maybe even while they're in the
52:06
inside still. But some of them would also be
52:09
great attorneys. And so I want to open up these
52:14
opportunities for everyone. You shouldn't have
52:16
to just go to a law school in order to be an
52:19
attorney. Law school, charge a lot of money.
52:21
We have the Rule 6 program, which is if you get
52:25
under the tutelage of an attorney, you can then
52:28
take the bar exam and become an attorney. And
52:31
so I'm looking for different ways that we can
52:34
increase our capacity there as well. So there's,
52:39
you know, Many ways to get here. And so if anybody's
52:44
listening out there, I'm looking for those pathways.
52:48
So that if you're interested in being a public
52:51
defender, I think maybe one thing that I haven't
52:54
said is that everybody who works in this office
52:57
is a public defender. The receptionist is a public
53:01
defender. They might not have a law degree. Social
53:04
worker, that's a public defender. The fiscal
53:07
unit, that's a public defender. Everybody here.
53:10
is a public defender. The journalist doing this
53:13
interview is a public defender. Okay. All right.
53:19
Yeah, absolutely. So it's about all of us, and
53:23
it's about all of us doing it together. And there's
53:29
some things I don't like about our capitalist
53:30
society, which places value based on a title,
53:36
but I wish there were some things that were different.
53:40
But we're all trying to make sure that people
53:42
get the best representation possible. We all
53:44
play different roles in making sure that happens.
53:47
And I just believe that everybody here is a pup
53:50
defender and everybody here is a leader. Because
53:53
at some point, you're going to have to make a
53:55
decision. And I want you to make the best decision
53:59
you can. Doesn't mean that that decision won't
54:02
be wrong. But you're going to make a decision
54:04
based on the facts you knew at the time. You
54:09
know, not going to get in trouble for that. Thank
54:11
you. Okay. Is there anything else you would like
54:14
to share? I just want to thank you for coming
54:18
in here and asking me these questions so that
54:21
more folks can learn about the office and different
54:25
opportunities or even for folks to listen to
54:29
this and get upset and say, you know what, I
54:31
want to make some changes. I really welcome that.
54:34
And that, you know, making change really fuels.
54:38
Why I'm doing this? Because I guess what I like
54:41
to say is I like winning. And I think people
54:44
want to win their case. But for me, what's important
54:47
is winning is the process by which it's done.
54:51
Because you cannot win every case. Because that's
54:54
not the decision that is made by a block of defender.
54:56
That might be made by a judge or might be made
54:58
by a jury or might be made by the legislature.
55:01
But what we can control is how we do the job,
55:05
how we treat people. and how we stand up for
55:08
others. And that's, you know, what I call winning.
55:11
Thank you very much, Larry. If you would like
55:19
to learn more or access services, you can visit
55:22
the State Office of Public Defense online at
55:25
opd .wa .gov. Or call the State Public Defenders
55:34
at 360 -586 -3164 or toll free in Washington
55:41
at 1 -800 -414 -6064. Visit in person at 711
55:49
Capitol Way South, Suite 301, Downtown Olympia.
55:55
To call the Voluntary Placement Agreement Hotline,
55:58
dial 833 -240 -9746. If you are a minor in need
56:05
of legal counsel, please dial the Youth Access
56:08
to Counsel Hotline at 1 -877 -578 -2333. Larry
56:16
and his public defenders are waiting to speak
56:18
with you. That's it for today's Resource Report
56:21
produced by Pathways to Agency. At Pathways to
56:25
Agency, we are driven by the belief that everyone
56:27
should have the tools and support to achieve
56:30
their goals and thrive in their communities.
56:33
Our mission is to bridge the gaps in understanding,
56:36
accessibility, and trust by connecting individuals
56:40
to resources and sharing information and processes
56:43
that can lead to personal and community growth.
56:48
Resource Report offers information about existing
56:51
and emerging nonprofits, and resource organizations.
56:55
Find out more at pathwaystoagency .org. From
57:00
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57:02
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57:06
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57:10
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57:13
expressed in the interviews conducted by Resource
57:16
Report. Till next time, and thanks for listening.