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Documentary Review: Wormwood (Conspiracy! The Show Legacy Collection) · Conspiracy! The Show

0:09
Speaker 1: Destroy.
0:10
Speaker 2: Welcome to Conspiracy The Show with your hosts Adam Todd
0:16
Speaker 2: Brown and Connor mcspaden. Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy the Show.
0:35
Speaker 2: I'm Adam Todd Brown.
0:36
Speaker 1: I'm Connor mcspadden.
0:38
Speaker 2: I just missed you taking a drink of water. I
0:40
Speaker 2: saw what you're doing your fucking game right now. You
0:43
Speaker 2: would have really.
0:43
Speaker 3: Hustled through your own name if you wanted to embarrass me,
0:47
Speaker 3: but alas you did not.
0:49
Speaker 2: I should pull up a clock so we don't get
0:52
Speaker 2: off track.
0:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we don't.
0:54
Speaker 3: We don't just start chatting like old hens and realize
0:57
Speaker 3: we've been in here for an.
0:58
Speaker 1: Hour and a half.
0:59
Speaker 2: How's it going, man, Good dude, Yeah, everything's everything's groovy.
1:05
Speaker 1: That's good.
1:06
Speaker 2: Everything's groovy with me too, things are going well.
1:09
Speaker 1: Adam Scott is a super mom T shirt I do.
1:12
Speaker 2: I fucking love this shirt.
1:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fun. Co opted it for my own.
1:15
Speaker 2: I had like the world's greatest Grandpa T shirt I'd
1:17
Speaker 2: wear like I just go to thrift stores when I
1:19
Speaker 2: was a kid and just get like very specific like
1:22
Speaker 2: you know, like the Gomez Family reunion.
1:24
Speaker 1: You know, Oh yeah t shirt.
1:25
Speaker 2: I had a when I lived in South Dakota. The
1:29
Speaker 2: high school there was called Roosevelt High School. And I
1:32
Speaker 2: had a three x women's hockey team T shirt, long
1:37
Speaker 2: sleeve T shirt with the.
1:38
Speaker 1: Name Dick Meyer on back.
1:40
Speaker 2: Wow that But I found it a thrift store and
1:43
Speaker 2: there was no way.
1:44
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna buy that. Oh, of course not.
1:45
Speaker 2: And I had a shirt from Walmart that said fly
1:47
Speaker 2: Fishing Dad. That was one of my favorite shirts for
1:50
Speaker 2: a long time.
1:51
Speaker 1: That's a good time.
1:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, So welcome back to Mine Control Month. As if
1:55
Speaker 2: you had a fucking choice. Yeah, well, Mine control works. Baby,
2:00
Speaker 2: We're not lead. There's no exit clause for my control mode.
2:02
Speaker 2: You can't opt out. No, no, this is a subscription
2:06
Speaker 2: only episode. Last week's episode was about MK Ultra.
2:10
Speaker 3: So now as soon as you see that email notification
2:13
Speaker 3: telling you there's a new post you're gonna start, you're
2:16
Speaker 3: gonna go ape shit at the post office.
2:17
Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah, ideally if everything's worked.
2:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, it took months of rehearsal to get the script right,
2:24
Speaker 3: to supplant these these cues in you you thought it
2:27
Speaker 3: was all just stammering and bullshitting, but it was all
2:30
Speaker 3: very well curated for the specific purpose of creating an
2:34
Speaker 3: army of murderers.
2:35
Speaker 2: So, yeah, this week we're talking about Wormwood, the Netflix
2:40
Speaker 2: documentary tak Ahead.
2:41
Speaker 1: That in the Navy.
2:42
Speaker 3: Oh what it just sounds like a like a seafaring
2:47
Speaker 3: std you know.
2:49
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that it does. Yeah, and I liked.
2:52
Speaker 2: I like, on last week's episode, I speculated as to
2:56
Speaker 2: whether the title referred to the hallucinogen absinthe. And even
3:02
Speaker 2: though I had seen this documentary series once before, I
3:04
Speaker 2: was like, I wonder if it comes up. I watched
3:06
Speaker 2: it a second time. It comes up like thirty seconds in.
3:09
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it it's one of the first things they
3:11
Speaker 2: talk about.
3:11
Speaker 3: You're like, yeah, I was right about that thing. I
3:13
Speaker 3: already knew.
3:14
Speaker 2: So that cleared that up. What did you think of
3:17
Speaker 2: this documentary?
3:19
Speaker 3: I think, like you said, it started off a little slow,
3:22
Speaker 3: but it really does kind of build and it's pretty
3:26
Speaker 3: well done.
3:26
Speaker 1: There is you'll you'll hear us talk about it.
3:28
Speaker 3: But some of the the Shakespeare comparisons do kind of
3:32
Speaker 3: just like, all right, man, maybe just make this episode
3:36
Speaker 3: twenty eight minutes.
3:37
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, they keep flashing back to stuff I
3:40
Speaker 2: felt like. I mean, the first time I watched it,
3:43
Speaker 2: I remember I got through the first two and a
3:45
Speaker 2: half episodes, and I messaged you and was like, that's bullshit. Yeah, yeah,
3:50
Speaker 2: And then I watched all the way to the end
3:52
Speaker 2: of the third episode and I was like, oh, okay, yeah,
3:55
Speaker 2: never mind, it's a It's it's pretty interesting.
3:58
Speaker 1: People need to know what I think.
4:00
Speaker 2: What threw me off is I thought I always knew
4:02
Speaker 2: kind of how this story went. And that's the crux
4:05
Speaker 2: of this documentary is you might think you know the
4:09
Speaker 2: conspiracy angle behind this, but it's actually.
4:13
Speaker 1: Kind of more at play than you would think.
4:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually a little bit crazier than that.
4:17
Speaker 1: Spoiler alert Korea.
4:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're going to we're gonna go through the
4:22
Speaker 2: do If you haven't seen it, there's gonna be some spoilers.
4:25
Speaker 2: You might want to watch it first, yeah, or watch
4:29
Speaker 2: listen to this in lieu of one. Yeah, it's a
4:32
Speaker 2: six hour investment. You know, it's gonna take a big,
4:35
Speaker 2: chunkier day, and we're here to still it down and
4:37
Speaker 2: make you a nice podcasting sour mash version of the
4:42
Speaker 2: of the product.
4:42
Speaker 3: And exactly you can't you can't exactly watch Netflix while
4:46
Speaker 3: you're driving.
4:47
Speaker 2: I guarantee our version will be slightly funnier yeah, yeah,
4:51
Speaker 2: I would hope. So, although there are some chuckles.
4:53
Speaker 1: I mean I already had.
4:54
Speaker 3: That great Wormwood joke where I just did nineteen twenties
4:57
Speaker 3: comedian voice and you just force.
4:59
Speaker 2: Laughed before you know, I was getting at exactly. Yeah,
5:03
Speaker 2: you won't find that on Netflix. This it's you know,
5:06
Speaker 2: it's weird how people a skew levity when there's a
5:09
Speaker 2: CIA assassination plots. It's like, come on, man, what's the
5:12
Speaker 2: point of You're not gonna crack wise? This is it's
5:16
Speaker 2: almost it's a documentary, but it's also kind of a movie,
5:19
Speaker 2: Like it's both of those.
5:20
Speaker 1: It's it's a lot of kind of an extended dramatization.
5:23
Speaker 2: There's a lot of Peters sars Guard in it.
5:26
Speaker 1: Is that his name? I think?
5:27
Speaker 2: So, yeah, Peter sars Guard plays Frank Olsen and then.
5:31
Speaker 1: Those mess that they're weren't at the airports the stars guard. Hey, hey, that.
5:38
Speaker 3: Was that was the least deserved airhorn I think, and processtory.
5:42
Speaker 2: I got that joke about halfway through the air horn going,
5:44
Speaker 2: I just yeah, yeah, courtesy yeah airhorn, you know, like
5:49
Speaker 2: when lights green, just a little toot, you know, exactly. So, yeah,
5:55
Speaker 2: let's let's talk about the first episode. The subject of
5:58
Speaker 2: this documentary is Eric Olsen. He's the son of Frank Olson,
6:04
Speaker 2: and we find out right away that his dad died
6:07
Speaker 2: when he was young, and they asked him at one point,
6:11
Speaker 2: what were you told when your father died? And he
6:13
Speaker 2: says he fell out a window. Correction, he fell or
6:17
Speaker 2: jumped out of window, which that alone is weird.
6:21
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, I mean this this document really does open
6:24
Speaker 3: like Watchmen.
6:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it does.
6:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like Feller jumped, are two starkly different things, Oh,
6:30
Speaker 2: very much so. And that's that's kind of what they
6:35
Speaker 2: set it up with. And we find out right away
6:38
Speaker 2: that in nineteen seventy five it was revealed that Frank
6:43
Speaker 2: Olsen killed himself after secretly being dosed with LSD. Yeah,
6:47
Speaker 2: so they lead with that in the very first episode,
6:51
Speaker 2: and I don't think they should have because that it
6:55
Speaker 2: feels like they're giving like the ending away and then
6:58
Speaker 2: they're gonna tarantino it to get back to how that happened.
7:02
Speaker 1: Yeah.
7:02
Speaker 3: I just do wonder if they were kind of like,
7:04
Speaker 3: we need a hook here.
7:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that could be, you know, and I think
7:10
Speaker 2: it does some disservice to it, but it could just
7:12
Speaker 2: be me and like, yep, I know that's what happened. Yeah,
7:15
Speaker 2: and just kind of writing the rest off. But there
7:18
Speaker 2: is actually more to it.
7:19
Speaker 3: What's sort of like watching an old TV show, like
7:22
Speaker 3: I've been watching Star Trek the Next Generation. I'm like, well,
7:25
Speaker 3: I know Data doesn't die, but I mean, I will,
7:29
Speaker 3: you know, let that go for the duration of this
7:31
Speaker 3: episode and be like maybe Data dies.
7:33
Speaker 2: Wow, I mean I hope not. Brent Spiner really needs
7:37
Speaker 2: these checks and then oh he's alive. Great, Yeah, you know,
7:39
Speaker 2: it's it's like anything, so we One of the things
7:44
Speaker 2: they talk about pretty early on is the funeral of
7:48
Speaker 2: Frank Olsen's dad and or actually I'm jumping ahead. They
7:54
Speaker 2: go into some details about this revelation from the government
7:58
Speaker 2: that Frank Olson killed himself after being scretly dosed. And
8:02
Speaker 2: what was interesting to me is it seemed like when
8:06
Speaker 2: MK Ultra broke there was some bickering over the word massive.
8:11
Speaker 2: It was described as a and I think it's because
8:14
Speaker 2: there's a headline that they show in this episode where
8:18
Speaker 2: the word massive is in quotes, as if the CIA
8:21
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, we did it, but not that much.
8:24
Speaker 1: What's massive really? You know?
8:26
Speaker 2: And I think that's probably because they thought they had
8:29
Speaker 2: eliminated all of the documents by that point. Yeah, because
8:33
Speaker 2: remember that those That's.
8:34
Speaker 3: How we found out about it, was the misfiled documents, right,
8:37
Speaker 3: and even just from what we saw from those, it
8:39
Speaker 3: was pretty widespread.
8:40
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it was huge. If you haven't listened to
8:44
Speaker 2: the mk Ultra episode, go back and listen to it
8:47
Speaker 2: and you'll know more about what we're talking about.
8:49
Speaker 3: Pre record this is this is a mind control to
8:52
Speaker 3: two to oh one, so exactly.
8:55
Speaker 1: So.
8:56
Speaker 2: Seymour Hirsch comes up in the first episode. He's a
8:58
Speaker 2: guy who he's one of the more interesting subjects in
9:02
Speaker 2: this thing because he's an investigative journalist who seems to
9:06
Speaker 2: be like equal parts encouraging Eric Olsen to look into
9:11
Speaker 2: this more but also discouraging him from looking into it more. Yeah,
9:16
Speaker 2: either at like at various points he either just kind
9:20
Speaker 2: of flat out disagrees with him, or he's like, you
9:22
Speaker 2: can look into it, but see ia might kill you. Yeah. Yeah,
9:25
Speaker 2: which that's that's a terrifying thing to hear. I mean,
9:28
Speaker 2: he's making a fair point, yeah, you know, And this
9:33
Speaker 2: first episode he writes an article that ends in the
9:37
Speaker 2: family holding a press conference like how they weren't just
9:41
Speaker 2: all murdered at that point blows my mind. Yeah, I
9:44
Speaker 2: mean I wonder if they have some kind of like
9:46
Speaker 2: it's almost like a data cap thing with like you know,
9:49
Speaker 2: families and murder. They're just like, you know what, it's
9:52
Speaker 2: there's a big overage fee if we do two unsanctioned
9:55
Speaker 2: murders in one calendar year. So we're gonna have to
9:57
Speaker 2: wait until the plane reups.
9:59
Speaker 1: Yeah I can.
10:00
Speaker 3: Maybe I could try to murder him on Wi Fi,
10:01
Speaker 3: but I don't know if they give me the password.
10:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope it's just part of the budget. Yeah,
10:06
Speaker 2: it's just not in that we have to wait till
10:08
Speaker 2: seventy six.
10:09
Speaker 1: Forget I forget what TV shows.
10:11
Speaker 3: I think it might be Futurama where they're just they're
10:12
Speaker 3: like briefing the president like all right, you get two
10:14
Speaker 3: murders a year, no questions asked.
10:16
Speaker 1: Like and I'm like, it probably is kind of like that.
10:19
Speaker 3: Sure, it probably is just like oh man that the Stevenson's,
10:23
Speaker 3: I mean, no one found out about them because we
10:25
Speaker 3: really blew our whole murder cap for this year.
10:28
Speaker 2: I mean, if I was Secret Service or something, that's
10:31
Speaker 2: maybe something i'd just offer up day one, like, hey,
10:34
Speaker 2: you're here, now, who do you want me to kill?
10:37
Speaker 1: Yeah?
10:37
Speaker 2: Just one person, just so you know I have your back. Yeah,
10:41
Speaker 2: And so I could blackmail the president with something later
10:45
Speaker 2: like if he ordered, I'd record it.
10:47
Speaker 1: I'm never going to be in the Secret Service.
10:49
Speaker 2: No. I met a guy who was in the Secret
10:51
Speaker 2: Service on nine to eleven and it was funny. I
10:53
Speaker 2: met this guy and this guy like works at this
10:56
Speaker 2: one of the many bars in the middle of the
10:58
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere that I perform at.
11:00
Speaker 1: Just like how did you end up here?
11:01
Speaker 3: Like how did you go from the Pentagon like on
11:03
Speaker 3: the big day to this little bullshit farming town.
11:07
Speaker 1: It's so weird.
11:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he was like have an answer, not really,
11:11
Speaker 2: I mean just like yeah, baby, just kind of drunkenly
11:14
Speaker 2: like yeah, that's life, you know. But that's the thing
11:18
Speaker 2: of like you forget, these are just like normal dudes.
11:20
Speaker 2: Because he's talking to this guy and he's like, ah,
11:22
Speaker 2: not particularly smart and not particularly you know, put together.
11:25
Speaker 1: You know, it's one of these dudes.
11:26
Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, I got a video game theme bar
11:28
Speaker 3: and seven kids I barely see. And I was just like, wait, wait,
11:31
Speaker 3: we could back up you got the nine to eleven go.
11:33
Speaker 2: On, Yeah, that is that's interesting. I've never known anyone
11:39
Speaker 2: who admitted to working for the government. I've just known
11:42
Speaker 2: people that I suspected worked. Like my dad had this
11:45
Speaker 2: friend when I was a kid named I'm not even
11:49
Speaker 2: gonna say his full name because I'm still sure he's
11:51
Speaker 2: out there, Yeah, somewhere in the espionage community. But we
11:54
Speaker 2: could never figure out what that motherfucker did for a living.
11:57
Speaker 2: And he just kind of would pop up every once
11:59
Speaker 2: in a while and like, Hey, I need to stay here.
12:02
Speaker 2: But he also had a ton of fucking money. It
12:04
Speaker 2: was really weird. Yeah, yeah, he seemed like he He
12:07
Speaker 2: also had very strong opinions on the fall of the
12:12
Speaker 2: Soviet Union at a time when most Americans didn't have
12:16
Speaker 2: a lot of strong opinions. Yeah, like in favor of
12:19
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union.
12:21
Speaker 3: It's so weird, man. Yeah, I mean I just don't
12:23
Speaker 3: like it's interesting, not just in terms of like the
12:26
Speaker 3: geopolitical repercussions, but just like from an anthropological perspective, what
12:31
Speaker 3: that kind of role and responsibility will do to your psyche,
12:34
Speaker 3: Like how how that molds the Plato up there.
12:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's and and that's the thing you you
12:40
Speaker 2: think about a lot watching this documentary, like the situation
12:44
Speaker 2: these people are like as bad as you feel for
12:47
Speaker 2: Frank Olsen, I also kind of felt bad for the
12:50
Speaker 2: people who had to oversee killing him.
12:53
Speaker 1: Yeah.
12:54
Speaker 2: No, I mean because it's like what are you gonna what?
12:55
Speaker 2: You gotta say no, yeah, then you know get killed. Yeah,
12:59
Speaker 2: it's like joining fucking gang. I mean I guess, I
13:01
Speaker 2: guess it's your fault for taking the job and pursuing it.
13:05
Speaker 2: But I mean maybe you didn't realize that was part
13:07
Speaker 2: of it, and by the time you're there, just like, well, fuck,
13:09
Speaker 2: I mean there's someone above me and I gotta fucking
13:11
Speaker 2: do this.
13:12
Speaker 1: Yeah.
13:12
Speaker 2: I sometimes think the CIA must go after like the
13:16
Speaker 2: most idealistic, government friendly candidates they can find and then
13:22
Speaker 2: just break them down when they get them inside.
13:25
Speaker 3: I mean I think, yeah, you kind of have to
13:27
Speaker 3: have that be Like there are people where it's like,
13:29
Speaker 3: you know.
13:29
Speaker 1: They're they're yoga's, they're God or whatever, like.
13:33
Speaker 3: People kind of have something that that's their thing, that
13:35
Speaker 3: that's kind of where they get it. And there are
13:37
Speaker 3: people that you know, just have faith and institutions, I mean,
13:40
Speaker 3: the less and less you know these days, but I mean,
13:43
Speaker 3: you find these folks and you have a process for
13:45
Speaker 3: waiting them out, and you're like, well, yeah, let's take
13:47
Speaker 3: that and exploit it, because no one else is gonna
13:49
Speaker 3: do this shit, right.
13:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that that kind of seems to be Frank Olsen,
13:55
Speaker 2: which they they talk a little bit. One interesting thing
13:58
Speaker 2: that comes up. They they talk a lot about his
14:01
Speaker 2: funeral and Vincent Ruette. Vincent Ruette is one of the
14:05
Speaker 2: most important figures in this documentary. He was one of
14:09
Speaker 2: Frank Olson's best friends. He was a coworker, and after
14:13
Speaker 2: the funeral, he starts showing up just to hang out
14:17
Speaker 2: with Alice Olsen, the mom, and Eric Olsen mentions that
14:23
Speaker 2: mom kind of slides into alcoholism because Vincent Ruette would
14:28
Speaker 2: show up every day and drink fucking martinis.
14:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we.
14:32
Speaker 2: Later find out the CIA sent him there. They wanted
14:36
Speaker 2: him to keep keep an eye on mom and make
14:38
Speaker 2: sure she didn't say anything crazy. Yeah, Which that's terrifying
14:42
Speaker 2: because up to that point they viewed him as a
14:46
Speaker 2: family friend, and he probably viewed them as friends.
14:49
Speaker 3: But then you know, like the assignment comes down. It's
14:51
Speaker 3: like you gotta go push the narrative in this direction. Yeah,
14:55
Speaker 3: you know, Louver Katie, Louver Katie, the movement with the
14:59
Speaker 3: with the old Martine and then.
15:01
Speaker 2: What a fucking job that would be my god.
15:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, grieving wife Liaison. You know it's so shitty, but
15:10
Speaker 3: you're just like, I mean, you got to figure the
15:12
Speaker 3: people organizing this whole cover up, We're just like, oh,
15:14
Speaker 3: we got an in. This guy's perfect, he's she's just
15:16
Speaker 3: gonna think that he wants to come and tell all
15:18
Speaker 3: the stories about Frank and then bada being bauda boom,
15:21
Speaker 3: She's over it.
15:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it. Uh so they they talk about god
15:25
Speaker 2: knows who what was in those fucking Martinez We'll get
15:27
Speaker 2: into that later, Yeah, for sure. At this point, they
15:30
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about Frank Olsen's Army career and
15:35
Speaker 2: he started out as an agronomist and at one point
15:39
Speaker 2: just gets recruited to participate in a biological weapons program
15:44
Speaker 2: at Fort Dietrich and they bring this up to point
15:47
Speaker 2: out how this guy went from like farm scientists to
15:52
Speaker 2: working on possible biological weapons like overnight. Yeah, and one
15:58
Speaker 2: of the saddest things they mentioned is the mom said
16:03
Speaker 2: she could tell when things went well at work that
16:08
Speaker 2: day because Frank would come home really sad because all
16:12
Speaker 2: the rabbits died.
16:13
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, that was pretty fucking rough.
16:17
Speaker 2: And like, imagine what that would do to you as
16:21
Speaker 2: because being a farmer, like being a scientist interested in
16:26
Speaker 2: stuff like that kind of implies that you care about animals.
16:29
Speaker 1: A little bit.
16:29
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, if you're an agronomus, you probably just yeah,
16:32
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not quite like he's getting dressed in
16:34
Speaker 3: the morning by bluebirds all uh Disney Princess, but I
16:37
Speaker 3: mean it's probably somewhat similar.
16:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now you're just killing rabbits for work. Yeah, harsh.
16:44
Speaker 2: And we also find out that the family never saw
16:49
Speaker 2: Frank's body after he died, which seems really odd.
16:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
16:55
Speaker 2: I mean I guess, you know, you fall out of
16:57
Speaker 2: a building they were trying to but it seems like
17:00
Speaker 2: that should be up to the family.
17:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
17:01
Speaker 2: I feel like they've got like like just a tissue
17:04
Speaker 2: box full of like we murdered this guy and covered
17:06
Speaker 2: it up tarps where they're just like it, grab one
17:08
Speaker 2: out of the box like chick and then just okay,
17:10
Speaker 2: that goes over him. You know, Yeah, are you really shit?
17:13
Speaker 2: It says, are you sure you want to see it?
17:15
Speaker 2: On the front of it in big impact letters. So
17:18
Speaker 2: they they do a bunch of at this point dramatic reenactments,
17:22
Speaker 2: and we see Frank Olsen getting dosed at the cabin
17:25
Speaker 2: in the woods. There's he goes on this work retreat
17:29
Speaker 2: and this is the thing we talked about in MK Ultra. Yeah,
17:32
Speaker 2: he goes on this work retreat where Sidney Gottlieb, who
17:35
Speaker 2: just seems like a genuinely evil dude, yeah, is kind
17:40
Speaker 2: of leading this retreat.
17:41
Speaker 3: And he does really have like a Marvel villain ass name.
17:44
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Gottlieb. He made the seerum that turns him.
17:47
Speaker 2: And in the documentary they get I don't remember the
17:50
Speaker 2: actor's name, but he plays crazy people in every fucking
17:55
Speaker 2: role he's in. Like they nailed the casting of Sidney Gottlieb.
17:59
Speaker 2: Like Hawk's weird, he's got a limp.
18:01
Speaker 1: He's a guy who's like what Andy Serkis is to
18:03
Speaker 1: motion can. Yeah.
18:06
Speaker 2: And so they're they're at this retreat and everyone gets
18:11
Speaker 2: their drink spiked with LSD and Frank Olson seems like
18:16
Speaker 2: kind of a bummer because everyone else is just like
18:19
Speaker 2: hanging out partying and he's wigging the fuck out like
18:22
Speaker 2: he's having a bad trip or something, and they don't
18:26
Speaker 2: go into a lot of details about what he did
18:29
Speaker 2: or what he said, but he just comes back from
18:32
Speaker 2: that retreat and says he made a mistake and that's
18:39
Speaker 2: something worse.
18:40
Speaker 3: Than the vague and then I don't want to talk
18:41
Speaker 3: about it.
18:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and we don't really. We find out later
18:46
Speaker 2: what that means. It becomes a really important line, and
18:49
Speaker 2: toward the end we find out what that probably means.
18:52
Speaker 2: But up to this point, they just make it seem
18:55
Speaker 2: like he was given LSD without knowing and it kind
19:00
Speaker 2: of made him crazy. It sends him into a depressive spiral.
19:03
Speaker 2: And again, like knowing that you took a hallucinerg in
19:06
Speaker 2: like that, you're like, okay, I'm going to grade my
19:09
Speaker 2: perception of reality on that curve. And even in my
19:12
Speaker 2: intoxicated state, I am aware and people will remind me
19:15
Speaker 2: that this is because I intentionally took these mind altering drugs.
19:18
Speaker 2: But not knowing why that's happening has got to be
19:21
Speaker 2: the fucking worst. Yeah, absolutely, Like any surprise high is
19:25
Speaker 2: a bad time, oh for sure. Yeah, Like if you
19:27
Speaker 2: smoke it, just even if you smoke too much weed
19:30
Speaker 2: and it hits you in a bad way. It's a
19:32
Speaker 2: thing you have to ride out. Oh not to chet
19:34
Speaker 2: Wild exactly, it's not. It's never enjoyable. And so that's
19:40
Speaker 2: kind of the the crux of the first episode. They
19:43
Speaker 2: they say they basically say the CIA drugged Frank Wolson
19:48
Speaker 2: and it led him to commit suicide, and then they
19:52
Speaker 2: end the episode showing us him getting drugged. They they
19:56
Speaker 2: also talk about how after this press conference, this family
19:59
Speaker 2: would invited to the White House to receive a personal
20:02
Speaker 2: apology from Gerald Ford, which.
20:06
Speaker 1: You gotta be like, could we have done this two
20:08
Speaker 1: years earlier or later? So I have a cool.
20:10
Speaker 3: President, you know, apologize. It's like, oh boy, Gerald Ford.
20:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, who wouldn't want to hear Nixon issue his first
20:18
Speaker 2: apology of all time?
20:20
Speaker 1: Yeah?
20:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like all right, all right, Adam, you're gonna
20:22
Speaker 3: meet Nirvana.
20:24
Speaker 1: It's just Pat Smears guitar tech. You know.
20:28
Speaker 3: I'd still that'd be pretty cool. But I mean, yeah,
20:33
Speaker 3: doesn't seem like he's doing a lot. Yeah, exactly what
20:35
Speaker 3: is he writing books in Seattle? Come on?
20:39
Speaker 2: One thing that was interesting. Did you notice the clock
20:41
Speaker 2: in the first episode. I didn't until you he'd pointed
20:44
Speaker 2: it out here. Yeah, the clock there's a clock really
20:48
Speaker 2: prominently over Eric Olson's shoulder during all of his interviews
20:53
Speaker 2: in the first episode, and about halfway through I realized
20:56
Speaker 2: this guy either talks faster than anyone in history or
21:01
Speaker 2: that clock's not moving. Yeah, because it's always at two
21:05
Speaker 2: thirty three. That's what time it always says on that clock.
21:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. So if you watch this and.
21:11
Speaker 3: Checking their phone right now and it's two thirty three
21:12
Speaker 3: as they're listening, and they're tripping out, so I just
21:14
Speaker 3: want to say, shout out, it's.
21:16
Speaker 2: Two thirty eight here. We just missed.
21:18
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Thank thank Christ. That would have been bad.
21:20
Speaker 2: So that's the end of And at the end of
21:23
Speaker 2: the first episode is where the parallels to Hamlets start,
21:26
Speaker 2: which well I did not need that.
21:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, who care that?
21:29
Speaker 3: This does nothing for Like, this is not where we're
21:31
Speaker 3: watching this documentary.
21:32
Speaker 2: At the very least, this could have been five episodes
21:34
Speaker 2: without that bullshit. Yeah right, you did not need it.
21:36
Speaker 2: Could have really cut some fat without all these analogies.
21:40
Speaker 2: So episode two opens with Olsen talking to Alice about
21:44
Speaker 2: how Frank Olsen talking about how the retreat didn't go
21:47
Speaker 2: well and he made a terrible mistake like we just mentioned,
21:51
Speaker 2: and From there, they cover his time between when he
21:56
Speaker 2: comes back from this retreat and when he finally goes
21:59
Speaker 2: to commit suicide.
22:01
Speaker 3: Yeah, basically, And I don't know if you could see
22:03
Speaker 3: the gigantic air quotes, Adam threw out his back.
22:06
Speaker 1: Putting out of that statement.
22:09
Speaker 2: Uh. They go to see a movie. At one point
22:11
Speaker 2: Martin Luther Alice thinks maybe it was a bad idea.
22:15
Speaker 2: Judging from the clips in the documentary, I think she
22:17
Speaker 2: was right, especially if he was still on LSD of
22:19
Speaker 2: any sort. Yeah, looks like a very intense film you.
22:22
Speaker 3: Want to go with, like a thor Ragnarok or something.
22:24
Speaker 3: Just fun and fun and flirty.
22:26
Speaker 1: That was a fun movie.
22:28
Speaker 3: I saw it on a plane finally and I was like,
22:29
Speaker 3: this is great. How do they fit so much shit
22:31
Speaker 3: into this movie?
22:31
Speaker 1: I fucking loved it. It was great. It was a comedy.
22:34
Speaker 1: It was so good. Yeah, it's fun.
22:36
Speaker 2: Uh So. At one point, Olsen, while he's back from
22:40
Speaker 2: this retreat, says he wants to quit his job. He
22:42
Speaker 2: goes into work to do that, and one of the
22:45
Speaker 2: creepiest moments happens. He goes in and talks to his supervisor.
22:50
Speaker 2: His supervisor excuses Sydney or excuses Frank from the room
22:54
Speaker 2: and then picks up the phone and just says, get
22:57
Speaker 2: me Robert Lashbrook. So who the fuck's Robert Lashbrook. We
23:04
Speaker 2: don't really find that out right away, but no, it
23:06
Speaker 2: comes up. But that scene was especially like when that happened,
23:10
Speaker 2: you know, something's a foot He's not an HR, you know,
23:13
Speaker 2: he's This is not the severance package liaison, definitely not.
23:18
Speaker 1: No, it's gonna be a little more cinister than that.
23:21
Speaker 2: One of the things I found interesting was the Colby documents.
23:24
Speaker 2: They talk about this guy, I think it was William
23:26
Speaker 2: Colby had all of these documents pertaining to the death
23:30
Speaker 2: of Frank Olson that he gives to the family. And
23:34
Speaker 2: this is two years before that Freedom of Information Act
23:37
Speaker 2: where all the mk Ultra documents came out, So I
23:39
Speaker 2: wonder what these documents were.
23:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, what they had, if anything crossed over, probably not
23:45
Speaker 3: because of the small amount of documents from m k
23:47
Speaker 3: Ultra that actually survived due to that filing error. But
23:50
Speaker 3: it is it is kind of interesting.
23:52
Speaker 2: And it at this point it seems like the CIA
23:56
Speaker 2: and the government in general is being really really open
23:59
Speaker 2: about the fact that they drugged this guy in an
24:03
Speaker 2: experiment and it caused him to commit suicide, and they're sorry.
24:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like, I think the kind of the
24:10
Speaker 3: crux of the assertion being made is like by them
24:13
Speaker 3: copping to that it was that was supposed to be, like, well, clearly,
24:16
Speaker 3: this looks so bad that this has got to be
24:18
Speaker 3: the whole truth, when in fact it was you know,
24:20
Speaker 3: this guy was asking questions and we killed him and
24:24
Speaker 3: pretended it was suicide because we drugged him, you know.
24:26
Speaker 1: Yeah.
24:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a crazy story meant to hide a crazier story.
24:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, basically.
24:31
Speaker 2: And so at one point, after he's been home for
24:35
Speaker 2: a bit, they go, he and Alice go to drive
24:38
Speaker 2: to the office, and when they get there, someone comes
24:41
Speaker 2: out and tells Alice that another agent is going to
24:44
Speaker 2: drive her home and that Frank's going back to New York,
24:47
Speaker 2: which at that point Frank probably knew he was going
24:51
Speaker 2: to die. Yeah, He's not thinking like, okay, well this
24:55
Speaker 2: is a I'm getting a gold watch, you know, yeah,
24:58
Speaker 2: like what are they doing? And even if the official
25:02
Speaker 2: story that he was just drugged and freaked out and
25:05
Speaker 2: killed himself is true, he probably still had that thought,
25:09
Speaker 2: oh yeah, especially if the the other version of events
25:13
Speaker 2: where he was murdered for knowing too much and threatening
25:16
Speaker 2: to say something about it. If that part's true, he
25:18
Speaker 2: definitely knew he was about to die. Yeah, probably, But
25:21
Speaker 2: what do you do?
25:22
Speaker 3: I don't know, man, I mean, you fight against it.
25:24
Speaker 3: You know you're gonna bring more hell upon your family
25:27
Speaker 3: than it's coming already.
25:28
Speaker 2: Just fucking kill the people trying to take you. Like
25:31
Speaker 2: there's nothing you can do. Yeah, what a fucking situation.
25:34
Speaker 2: And it's like, well, do I either you know, want
25:36
Speaker 2: to go have this done on their terms or just
25:39
Speaker 2: having a loan in my bed and with some like
25:41
Speaker 2: fake intruder they've cooked up. And when they brainwashed a
25:44
Speaker 2: homeless guy to come in and stab him an ice pick,
25:46
Speaker 2: like choices aren't great? No, And the first they take
25:51
Speaker 2: him to a guy named doctor Abramson who's an allergist,
25:55
Speaker 2: which that seems like a weird choice, but yeah, it
25:58
Speaker 2: makes sense in the end. And this is a really
26:03
Speaker 2: weird part in the diet. Do you remember the experiment
26:06
Speaker 2: they did on him where they he had Frank lay
26:11
Speaker 2: down and put like a lamp cover over his head
26:14
Speaker 2: and shine a light on it and just asked him
26:17
Speaker 2: all these weird questions and it just seemed like they
26:23
Speaker 2: did this experiment, he wigged out, and their solution was,
26:27
Speaker 2: let's do a few more experiments.
26:29
Speaker 1: I see how it goes.
26:30
Speaker 3: It almost kind of seems like they were like, well,
26:32
Speaker 3: this guy is this guys like done, he's he's got
26:35
Speaker 3: to get out of here. We might as well get
26:37
Speaker 3: a little more mileage out of him experiment wise, Yeah, you.
26:40
Speaker 2: Know, or they were yeah, I don't know, or they
26:43
Speaker 2: were just trying to make him actually crazy.
26:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean maybe just to you know, hey, if
26:49
Speaker 3: you get you get a phone call to Alex, you're
26:50
Speaker 3: gonna sound even weirder.
26:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so that happens, and shortly after that they
26:57
Speaker 2: cut to the news that at one point the family
27:00
Speaker 2: he gets a seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars settlement
27:03
Speaker 2: from the government for the death of their father. Yeah,
27:07
Speaker 2: and it includes Alice getting all of his benefits. Sidney
27:10
Speaker 2: Gottlieb gives a really backhanded line where he says, well,
27:15
Speaker 2: make sure you get all the benefits your husband deserved.
27:20
Speaker 2: And it seems like a payoff. That's what Eric Olson
27:23
Speaker 2: took it as because it says basically a payoff. Yeah,
27:26
Speaker 2: they sign an agreement that they can't ask any more questions,
27:30
Speaker 2: which it's like, yeah, yeah, no more further legal action.
27:32
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, I guess that makes sense for us
27:35
Speaker 2: of it. No more questions.
27:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's this woman's husband that's dead, this kid's
27:39
Speaker 3: father that's dead. No more questions.
27:42
Speaker 2: And he's you know, he basically hints that his mom
27:46
Speaker 2: just didn't want to know what happened, like it's bad
27:48
Speaker 2: enough that her husband died, like is it gonna make
27:52
Speaker 2: her feel better to know that his friend was complicit
27:56
Speaker 2: in his death, and then came and baby sat for
28:00
Speaker 2: years after to make sure she didn't ask too many questions.
28:03
Speaker 3: And again, I mean much like kind of empathizing with
28:05
Speaker 3: those those dudes that have had and might have had
28:07
Speaker 3: to kill him.
28:08
Speaker 1: It's kind of like kind of get it, yeah, you know,
28:10
Speaker 1: and you.
28:11
Speaker 2: Know, maybe she knew, like maybe she knew that's what happens.
28:15
Speaker 3: And it's and she's like, I don't know, Yeah, I guess.
28:17
Speaker 3: I mean, I'd rather have this money than nothing. I'll
28:19
Speaker 3: just yeah, fucking whatever, like I just want to.
28:22
Speaker 2: And in the most cia development possible, not long after
28:26
Speaker 2: this settlement, Eric Olsen's sister, her husband, and their kids
28:30
Speaker 2: are killed in a small plane crash not long after
28:34
Speaker 2: getting that money, which I'm sure it's nothing. Of course,
28:39
Speaker 2: I'm sure that is just a coincidence. Uh. They talk
28:43
Speaker 2: about a bunch of stuff about Eric's collages, which I
28:46
Speaker 2: don't give a shit about. Yeah, but they do show
28:49
Speaker 2: one of them that has the clock or has the
28:51
Speaker 2: time set for two thirty three am, and they kind
28:54
Speaker 2: of hint that he did that before he found out
28:58
Speaker 2: that that's when his dad died.
28:59
Speaker 1: But I I don't believe. Yeah, I kind of don't either.
29:02
Speaker 3: And then even then that's just what a It's like
29:04
Speaker 3: what he's predicting the future?
29:06
Speaker 1: Now, what are you saying here? Yeah?
29:08
Speaker 2: So so then the rest of the episode is about
29:13
Speaker 2: the rest of episode two is Frank at this hotel
29:16
Speaker 2: where he eventually dies. The weirdest part to me. They
29:20
Speaker 2: get back to the hotel and Vincent Ruette says, here,
29:24
Speaker 2: have some of that whiskey the doctor gave you. The
29:27
Speaker 2: show doesn't start for another hour, so he was given
29:30
Speaker 2: whiskey by the psychiatrist he had just seen, Yeah, which
29:34
Speaker 2: was almost undoubtedly waste with LSD.
29:36
Speaker 3: That's like, this is like some eighteen thirties as medicine
29:39
Speaker 3: gave it takes some of that whiskey the doctor just.
29:41
Speaker 2: Gave you what like what psychiatrist says, Oh, here's what's
29:46
Speaker 2: going to fix your depression.
29:47
Speaker 1: Wooky. Yeah, yeah, that never.
29:50
Speaker 2: Happens, and but Frank drinks it.
29:54
Speaker 1: Yep.
29:55
Speaker 2: The Civil War. Dennis gets them all fixed up. He
29:58
Speaker 2: gets right at it. And then they go out to
30:01
Speaker 2: a show and Frank freaks out while they're at the
30:05
Speaker 2: it's like a play or some shit.
30:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Frank starts.
30:08
Speaker 3: To imagine, imagine having the last thing you get to
30:11
Speaker 3: watch before you die be a play. Oh, can I
30:14
Speaker 3: at least just check out pulp fiction one more time
30:17
Speaker 3: or some porn or something like, could I could I
30:19
Speaker 3: play a video game?
30:20
Speaker 1: Like the show?
30:21
Speaker 3: Of all the things to have to choose his last
30:23
Speaker 3: year table to fucking play.
30:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, a play or an opera would really bum me out.
30:28
Speaker 1: Maybe that was the trick. We're gonna get drunken board
30:30
Speaker 1: and then hocky hockey.
30:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't want to watch any of those
30:33
Speaker 2: things when I'm dying.
30:34
Speaker 3: No, I think he was at this play, just like,
30:36
Speaker 3: oh my god, throw me out a fucking window.
30:39
Speaker 2: Probably, And uh so that's that's kind of what they
30:44
Speaker 2: cover in episode two and episode two does feel like
30:48
Speaker 2: it's really drawn out. The first three episodes feel like
30:52
Speaker 2: they could have maybe been compiled into one this.
30:55
Speaker 3: I feel like this could have been a bang in
30:56
Speaker 3: two hour yeah, doc.
30:58
Speaker 2: Yeah it It's a lot to get through, and that
31:01
Speaker 2: part is frustrating. But the story, especially when we get
31:05
Speaker 2: into episode three. Right near the end of episode three,
31:08
Speaker 2: really picks up. Yeah, and it gets interesting. But at
31:12
Speaker 2: the end of episode two, Vincent Ruette gets a wake
31:15
Speaker 2: up call at two thirty in the morning, which I
31:18
Speaker 2: feel like that part did not happen, because, as we'll
31:23
Speaker 2: find out, in terms of how the murder happened, you're
31:26
Speaker 2: not gonna ask for a wake up call from the
31:28
Speaker 2: front lobby three minutes after.
31:31
Speaker 1: The murder you're supposed to have happened. Yeah, right, uh?
31:34
Speaker 2: Or no, Actually, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was a
31:38
Speaker 2: Lashbrook call or or who the fun No, Ruette was
31:41
Speaker 2: in the room with Frank Olsen. I'm getting ahead of myself,
31:44
Speaker 2: but and I think it's Lashbrook who gets the phone call.
31:48
Speaker 2: But I thought it was weird either way, because.
31:50
Speaker 3: Yeah, the other suspicious guy gets a wake up call. Yeah,
31:53
Speaker 3: I just want to make sure you're up for the murder.
31:56
Speaker 2: But either way, did they not? Were phone records not
31:58
Speaker 2: a thing you could trace back? I mean maybe they weren't. Like,
32:01
Speaker 2: wouldn't the hotel have known? I don't know if you could.
32:04
Speaker 2: I mean unless you've had testimony from like the receptionist
32:06
Speaker 2: or whatever. It doesn't seem like there would be like
32:08
Speaker 2: a yeah, a record of that because this was all
32:10
Speaker 2: in just fucking wire days. So the dumbest things I've
32:15
Speaker 2: said in the podcast back in the wire days, you know,
32:19
Speaker 2: the two thousands before we knew good television. Really so yeah,
32:24
Speaker 2: actually I think it was Ruwat calling and uh he
32:27
Speaker 2: calls lash Brook to say that Frank has disappeared, and
32:32
Speaker 2: Lashbrook says he has to report Frank's disappearance to the
32:36
Speaker 2: security office. And at that point you think he's dead.
32:39
Speaker 2: But they find Frank just hanging out in the lobby. Yeah,
32:42
Speaker 2: but after they make that call to the security office,
32:46
Speaker 2: everyone's getting watched basically, and the security office is coming.
32:50
Speaker 2: The Security office is a crazy concept in this, like
32:54
Speaker 2: they I don't know if I put it in the notes,
32:56
Speaker 2: but in one episode they basically say that the CIA
33:00
Speaker 2: is made up of like really smart types like people
33:05
Speaker 2: like me, and you would be probably on the investigative
33:10
Speaker 2: side of the CIA and not so much the murder side. Yeah,
33:13
Speaker 2: they made we're too we get too too many follow ups, right,
33:17
Speaker 2: you know, it's a do we.
33:18
Speaker 1: Really want to do a piano wire for this?
33:21
Speaker 2: You know? I feel like ris and would be better
33:24
Speaker 2: just hear me out. Yeah, we would overthink it for sure.
33:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:27
Speaker 3: I mean I had this problem working at Ross Dress
33:29
Speaker 3: for Lass where I'd be like, well, I mean, if
33:31
Speaker 3: we're gonna do stock right now, I mean, wouldn't make
33:34
Speaker 3: more sense to expedite the customers And They'd be like,
33:37
Speaker 3: shut up and move the boxes, and I'd be like, oh,
33:39
Speaker 3: I forgot, I'm a slave.
33:40
Speaker 1: Like so. Yeah.
33:42
Speaker 2: The the security office, they imply, is basically the murder
33:46
Speaker 2: wing of the CIA, and they they the way.
33:51
Speaker 3: They take a Pokemon attack Pigot used murder wing.
33:55
Speaker 2: The way they put it is that these the agents
33:58
Speaker 2: at the time could call the security office and say
34:01
Speaker 2: this guy's a problem, and the security office will go, okay,
34:04
Speaker 2: we'll come take care of it, and nobody ever talked
34:07
Speaker 2: about why it needed to be done or how it
34:10
Speaker 2: was going to be done. They would just say, all right,
34:13
Speaker 2: we'll be here at this time. Yeah, be ready and
34:17
Speaker 2: like the toat truck driver in blythe where he's just like, god,
34:20
Speaker 2: damn it, Triple A sent me out at two in
34:22
Speaker 2: the morning. And this is this is the United States, Like,
34:26
Speaker 2: this is the United States running a basically a police
34:29
Speaker 2: organization that murders dissidents. Yeah, that's that's what this builds
34:34
Speaker 2: up to. And that's that's terrifying dissidents.
34:38
Speaker 3: That they you know, I mean, this guy will give
34:40
Speaker 3: into this later, but it's like the big issues here
34:43
Speaker 3: are of your own creation.
34:45
Speaker 1: You know.
34:45
Speaker 3: It's like, we put the pets down and we also microwaved.
34:49
Speaker 2: The pets, you know, like they did both of it.
34:53
Speaker 1: So they got to have a cleanup department.
34:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they call the security office even though they
34:59
Speaker 2: do have eventually find Frank. And this is when we're
35:03
Speaker 2: really introduced to Sidney Gottlieb. We had seen him up
35:06
Speaker 2: to this point.
35:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's more so just kind of alluded to.
35:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, but now he's really in the picture. And they
35:14
Speaker 2: mentioned that Sidney Gottlieb, who, keep in mind, as we
35:18
Speaker 2: mentioned on the last episode, was the head chemist on
35:21
Speaker 2: the MK Ultra program. They also in this suggests that
35:25
Speaker 2: he was linked to attempts to kill Patresea La Mumba
35:29
Speaker 2: and Fidel Castro. Yeah, and this is a quote from
35:33
Speaker 2: the documentary. So to say he's involved in the assassination
35:37
Speaker 2: of Frank Olsen isn't much of a leap.
35:39
Speaker 1: I agree with that.
35:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, they call the security office and then Sidney Gottlieb
35:43
Speaker 2: shows up. Well, actually, I think we find out Sidney
35:46
Speaker 2: Gottlieb was there the entire time.
35:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, like he was just kind of just there.
35:52
Speaker 2: I was just I was just here to see you know,
35:54
Speaker 2: it's my fair lady on Broadway or what. Yeah, what
35:57
Speaker 2: this seems like to me is is them taking one
36:02
Speaker 2: more shot at deciding if Frank is really going to
36:05
Speaker 2: be a problem or if there's a way they can
36:08
Speaker 2: fix this, like just a couple more days to monitor him, yeah,
36:12
Speaker 2: before they murder him.
36:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, just kind of like let's just double check.
36:16
Speaker 3: You know, he's did some good, killed a lot of
36:19
Speaker 3: rabbits for us.
36:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.
36:20
Speaker 2: You know, either that or they were just kind of
36:23
Speaker 2: laying groundwork to be able to deny murdering him by
36:27
Speaker 2: going to all these places and saying he's crazy. We
36:30
Speaker 2: got to take him to New York. He's crazy. We
36:32
Speaker 2: got to take him to New York. Everyone will be like, yeah,
36:34
Speaker 2: he was really depressed and he was crazy and then
36:35
Speaker 2: he jumped off that window when they got to New York. Yeah,
36:38
Speaker 2: but either way, scary, It's really fucking scary.
36:41
Speaker 1: Oh totally yeah.
36:42
Speaker 3: I mean this is like the dude, you know, this
36:44
Speaker 3: is the Nick Fury of mind control killing people and
36:48
Speaker 3: mk ultra.
36:49
Speaker 1: They touch on a little bit.
36:51
Speaker 2: Uh. They mentioned that Gottlieb and Lashbrook were both at
36:54
Speaker 2: Frank's funeral, or they were at least on the funeral registry,
36:58
Speaker 2: which is.
36:59
Speaker 1: Harsh, and then they that's weird.
37:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, that's like, all right, easy one, a
37:05
Speaker 3: sugar night, here to see you.
37:08
Speaker 2: It's a lot like that. Yeah, And they cut to
37:13
Speaker 2: at this point the family going to see Lashbrook in
37:17
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four and Robert Lashbrook. Lashbrook, this is when
37:21
Speaker 2: we find out Sidney Gottlieb was in New York the
37:23
Speaker 2: entire time Frank was there. Yeah, And up to this
37:26
Speaker 2: point the family had been told that Sidney Gottlieb was
37:29
Speaker 2: back in DC, I believe. And Lashbrook lets out that
37:36
Speaker 2: Sidney Gottlieb was there the whole time. So that's the
37:39
Speaker 2: thing that really sends Eric Olson on this path down,
37:43
Speaker 2: like this thing consumes his entire life.
37:45
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, of course.
37:46
Speaker 2: Which that's not surprising. The government killed his father, like
37:50
Speaker 2: murdered his father.
37:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you gotta if you're gonna looking for
37:54
Speaker 3: a drum to beat, you know.
37:56
Speaker 2: And it seems like with them being as open as
37:59
Speaker 2: they were.
38:00
Speaker 3: That it was their fault at least to the extent
38:03
Speaker 3: that he killed himself because he was crazy because they
38:05
Speaker 3: drugged him, right.
38:06
Speaker 1: They seemed to be pretty open about that.
38:08
Speaker 2: And I think that made it easier for him to
38:12
Speaker 2: go public with everything else.
38:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like, I mean, they already made the
38:16
Speaker 1: settlement and on that.
38:16
Speaker 2: Stuff, because at one point they like this builds up
38:19
Speaker 2: to them attempting to file criminal murder charges against the
38:25
Speaker 2: CIA and man that probably would have gotten him murdered
38:31
Speaker 2: if not for the fact in the seventies they were
38:33
Speaker 2: so open about, Hey, sorry, we accidentally killed your dad. Yeah,
38:36
Speaker 2: like you can't hardly kill him now, Yeah.
38:38
Speaker 3: I mean that's that's a point where that uses up
38:41
Speaker 3: a lot of that murder data, you know what I mean, Like,
38:43
Speaker 3: how badly do you want this story to go away?
38:45
Speaker 1: And it's not a story you hear a lot about.
38:47
Speaker 3: I mean, we're just finally getting to Netflix documentary about it,
38:50
Speaker 3: what thirty.
38:50
Speaker 1: Two years later.
38:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's crazy that this wasn't bigger news, like
38:56
Speaker 2: the I don't remember hearing shit like I've I'm I
39:00
Speaker 2: mean a lot of stuff.
39:00
Speaker 1: This guy doesn't even come across as particularly crazy.
39:03
Speaker 2: No, no, not at all. Yeah, he seems really like
39:06
Speaker 2: he seems like a guy who's convinced his dad was
39:09
Speaker 2: murdered and he was to find out what happened. Like,
39:11
Speaker 2: there's nothing crazy about him. And I'm old enough that,
39:16
Speaker 2: especially as he gets into like exhuming his dad's body
39:20
Speaker 2: and filing these lawsuits, I'm old enough that I would
39:22
Speaker 2: have heard that shit in the news, like I'm I
39:25
Speaker 2: vividly remember the fucking Iran contra hearings. Oh yeah, and
39:29
Speaker 2: that was like eighty seven, eighty eight. Yeah, yeah, so
39:32
Speaker 2: I would have remembered if this was really big news
39:34
Speaker 2: as it should have.
39:35
Speaker 1: Been, but it wasn't reported on it.
39:36
Speaker 2: But it wasn't because I mean, there's even more of
39:38
Speaker 2: a bottleneck of disseminating information back then because he didn't
39:41
Speaker 2: have the Internet. Yeah like this, yeah, so it h
39:45
Speaker 2: And again this is also kind of like a like
39:47
Speaker 2: a real like a real murdery sweet spot, you know,
39:50
Speaker 2: because it's just yeah, Freedom Information Act, you know, like
39:53
Speaker 2: just and it's just like, yeah, this is kind of
39:55
Speaker 2: like you kind of got it in under the wire,
39:57
Speaker 2: right Yeah.
39:58
Speaker 1: Yeah.
39:58
Speaker 2: It's like it's like people that are born just before
40:00
Speaker 2: they had their entire life history and you know, them
40:02
Speaker 2: saying the N word on MySpace could come out.
40:04
Speaker 1: It's it's kind of like that, but with murder.
40:06
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and it seems like it all happened at
40:09
Speaker 2: a time when our government was like so those Nazis,
40:12
Speaker 2: if you take the juwe stuff out of it, maybe
40:16
Speaker 2: they were onto something very efficient.
40:19
Speaker 1: Yeah.
40:19
Speaker 2: I mean, now we know what happens when you put
40:21
Speaker 2: boiling water into a person with down syndrome spring.
40:25
Speaker 1: That's exactly what you would have thought. But now we
40:27
Speaker 1: know for sure. But at least we know. Yeah. Yeah.
40:30
Speaker 2: So around this time they also directly ask Vincent Ruett
40:35
Speaker 2: if Frank Olsen was considered a security risk. He refuses
40:38
Speaker 2: to answer the question, So I assume he was considered
40:41
Speaker 2: a security risk. Yeah, Like, there's no reason to not
40:44
Speaker 2: answer that question if the answer isn't yes. So they
40:47
Speaker 2: go to Seymour Hirsch that same investigative journalist who wrote
40:51
Speaker 2: that first article. He makes a bunch of phone calls
40:54
Speaker 2: and says, the consensus is that the CIA would not
40:56
Speaker 2: have killed a colleague in nineteen fifty three.
40:59
Speaker 1: And that's the episode. Thank you so much.
41:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of fun. It has been real follow
41:04
Speaker 2: us on the socials.
41:06
Speaker 1: But then he.
41:07
Speaker 2: Also tells Eric that he is smart enough to know
41:12
Speaker 2: he shouldn't go digging around in this story.
41:16
Speaker 3: That's like the fucking It's always the most upsetting part
41:19
Speaker 3: when there's these kind of people in the middle of Yeah,
41:21
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, well, I'm talking to the guy down
41:23
Speaker 3: here who's looking into it.
41:24
Speaker 2: I'm talking to the guys of here, who knows what's
41:26
Speaker 2: going on. He's just kind of like, let's just stay
41:29
Speaker 2: in this comfortable gray area. I mean, do you need
41:32
Speaker 2: a piece of paper that says they did it? I
41:33
Speaker 2: feel like, you know what happens, Like, let's just don't
41:35
Speaker 2: let just take our somen one hundred and fifty thousand
41:37
Speaker 2: dollars and shut the fuck up, you know. And that's
41:39
Speaker 2: kind of Seymour Hirsch's plot line in this because at
41:43
Speaker 2: the end, like he gives these interviews basically saying, yeah,
41:48
Speaker 2: they murdered his dad, and I have seen evidence of it,
41:53
Speaker 2: but the person who showed me the evidence, like, I
41:56
Speaker 2: can't reveal it without giving away that source, which will
42:00
Speaker 2: probably get that person killed. Yeah, and it's this. I mean,
42:04
Speaker 2: I know we're jumping way ahead to the end, but
42:06
Speaker 2: it's a really frustrating ending because you want to see
42:10
Speaker 2: that evidence, you want to hear from that person. But
42:14
Speaker 2: he just repeatedly keeps saying I can't write the article
42:17
Speaker 2: because I can't verify the information without putting people at risk.
42:23
Speaker 2: But he basically confirms without confirming, that the CIA executed
42:28
Speaker 2: this guy.
42:28
Speaker 1: He gives you the I'm not touching you yeah treatment.
42:33
Speaker 2: So they go see Sidney Gottlieb.
42:35
Speaker 1: Gottlieb.
42:36
Speaker 2: The first thing he says is how the old him
42:41
Speaker 2: did things he's not proud of, but that the new
42:44
Speaker 2: him can't really remember them because he's disassociated himself from
42:47
Speaker 2: that old hymn.
42:49
Speaker 1: Oh mannikes Yeah.
42:50
Speaker 3: High school boyfriend Sidney Gottlieb is in to say I'm
42:55
Speaker 3: really sorry about summer, but I mean that's summer.
42:58
Speaker 2: That's summer, Sydney. All right, this is school's in session, Sydney.
43:01
Speaker 2: I'm a good boy.
43:02
Speaker 1: Try to get my gpa up, go off the school.
43:05
Speaker 2: What a creepy thing to set, like just say yes,
43:10
Speaker 2: just say yeah, we murdered him.
43:11
Speaker 1: What are you gonna do about it?
43:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, just kind of just be like give him a look,
43:16
Speaker 2: you know, like and then what out of the room
43:18
Speaker 2: and shoot yourself in the head like in a movie. Yeah,
43:21
Speaker 2: that would be great. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's how this
43:23
Speaker 2: is supposed to end. Yeah, you found me so that
43:26
Speaker 2: your kid, yourself kid can.
43:27
Speaker 1: Know how this guy's kid feels, and countless other kids. Exactly.
43:30
Speaker 2: We didn't have enough, like enough initiative to get a
43:33
Speaker 2: documentary made about their dads.
43:35
Speaker 1: Who Yeah, I used to work in.
43:36
Speaker 3: Geology and then I made rock golms that were designed
43:39
Speaker 3: to kill Jews, and then I fell out of a window.
43:43
Speaker 2: So this they they do a lot of at this point,
43:48
Speaker 2: dramatic reenactments of the agents, Like at one point they
43:53
Speaker 2: try to take Frank home and he's still They decide
43:58
Speaker 2: he's still too sad, so they stopped at Sydney Gottlieb's house, where,
44:01
Speaker 2: of course.
44:02
Speaker 1: Who could cheer him up better, you know.
44:04
Speaker 2: And the implication is that he's given more LSD at
44:06
Speaker 2: this point, because remember he starts like dancing around in
44:10
Speaker 2: the living room and he does a handstand in the
44:12
Speaker 2: living room.
44:13
Speaker 1: Yeah.
44:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's like, this is I mean, you've
44:17
Speaker 2: dosed enough people.
44:18
Speaker 1: You've got to see that this is not how it works,
44:21
Speaker 1: you know.
44:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, Let's send him back into the weird psychedelia matrix
44:25
Speaker 3: so he can like fix himself.
44:27
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, no, yeah, I feel like they
44:31
Speaker 2: were just kind of trying to make him crazy enough
44:35
Speaker 2: to just kill himself. Yeah, And I think eventually they
44:38
Speaker 2: ran out of time and just had the murder.
44:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, and his spirit was too strong, and they're just
44:41
Speaker 1: like okay, well.
44:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so Frank and Lashbrook go back to New York,
44:47
Speaker 2: Vincent Ruett goes home. And this is where things get
44:52
Speaker 2: really interesting near the end of episode three, because we
44:55
Speaker 2: find out Frank was convinced the US had used biological
44:59
Speaker 2: ways weapons in Korea during the Korean War, and we
45:04
Speaker 2: see all of these videos of US soldiers confessing to
45:07
Speaker 2: dropping chemical weapons on people, which since then like, that's
45:11
Speaker 2: kind of what the Manchurian candidate is based on.
45:14
Speaker 1: That's the government.
45:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the argument when these videos actually happened was
45:22
Speaker 2: the government was saying, oh, they're brainwashing our boys and
45:25
Speaker 2: making them tell these lies. But were they yeah, I mean,
45:29
Speaker 2: were they? Or did we drop chemical weapons on Korea?
45:32
Speaker 2: Easier than killing a bunch of you know, soldiers, is
45:35
Speaker 2: just to make them look crazy?
45:36
Speaker 1: Like, right, all these things and.
45:39
Speaker 2: We're fresh off of having dropped the first atomic bomb
45:42
Speaker 2: in the history of modern warfare.
45:44
Speaker 1: Depending on what conspiracy theories you believe.
45:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know, am I supposed to believe
45:50
Speaker 2: we wouldn't drop chemical weapons on Korea?
45:52
Speaker 1: Yeah?
45:52
Speaker 2: No, in the fifties, the forties sounds like US, you know,
45:57
Speaker 2: and Dixon and in the White House. Yeah, And it's
46:00
Speaker 2: it's fascinating. Like there's one soldier who one of the videos,
46:04
Speaker 2: he says, we dropped a bomb that was a dud,
46:07
Speaker 2: and what it actually was was filled with this biological agent,
46:11
Speaker 2: which we find out are bugs. They dropped insects on
46:15
Speaker 2: Korea is basically the theory. Yeah, and that this spread
46:19
Speaker 2: all of this. I don't remember what disease they were spreading,
46:24
Speaker 2: but that's basically what we find out is that Frank
46:27
Speaker 2: Olsen found out about this and was really upset about it.
46:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe, and alleged Yeah, yeah, but I mean it
46:35
Speaker 3: all kind of tracks like I wouldn't put it past us.
46:38
Speaker 3: I mean, this is exactly the kind of impetus they'd
46:40
Speaker 3: need for killing this guy.
46:41
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, seems to be there.
46:44
Speaker 2: And a thing Frank Olsen said to his boss at
46:48
Speaker 2: one point is brought up, can't I just disappear? And
46:54
Speaker 2: at the time, like at the beginning of the documentary,
46:58
Speaker 2: if you hear that, you think, well, he's just depressed
47:02
Speaker 2: and sad because they gave him this LSD and it
47:05
Speaker 2: fucked with his head. And then you hear it in
47:07
Speaker 2: this context and it's like, do you have to murder me?
47:11
Speaker 2: Or can I just disappear?
47:12
Speaker 1: Yeah? Can I just?
47:13
Speaker 3: Can I just work it like a like like a
47:15
Speaker 3: better call Saul, like a quiz no sandwich shop somewhere,
47:19
Speaker 3: And can I just thirty two thousand dollars a year
47:21
Speaker 3: and tell my kids to shut up?
47:23
Speaker 1: Like?
47:24
Speaker 2: So, this episode ends with Sydney Lashbrook getting up and
47:28
Speaker 2: going to the bathroom around two thirty in the morning,
47:32
Speaker 2: and at that point it sounds like someone comes in
47:34
Speaker 2: the room. He's sharing a room with Frank Olsen. Yeah,
47:38
Speaker 2: separate beds.
47:39
Speaker 3: Just a couple of dudes out. You know, I'm making
47:40
Speaker 3: a theater trip to New York City.
47:43
Speaker 2: Nothing weird about that.
47:44
Speaker 1: Yeah.
47:45
Speaker 2: So that's how episode three ends, and cut to episode four.
47:51
Speaker 2: There's more Hamlet references, which fucking stop it. But they
47:56
Speaker 2: also do a really quick thing with the night manager
48:00
Speaker 2: the hotel Statler, which is where Frank Olson died. The
48:04
Speaker 2: night manager who was working at the time, he's.
48:06
Speaker 1: Sure, you just go by the comedian's.
48:08
Speaker 2: Weird He said that last Brook told him quote, I
48:13
Speaker 2: heard glass crack and he went out the window. This
48:16
Speaker 2: night manager is convinced this is a murder. Yeah, which
48:19
Speaker 2: so am I by this point. And one of the
48:23
Speaker 2: craziest coincidences I think I have ever heard in my
48:29
Speaker 2: life happens early on in episode four, where Eric Olsen
48:34
Speaker 2: is talking to a friend of his about how he
48:37
Speaker 2: wishes he could dig up his dad's body and examine
48:41
Speaker 2: it to see if the things that happened to him,
48:45
Speaker 2: like if there's any evidence that he's being lied to,
48:48
Speaker 2: and the friend just casually says, hey, you know Jim
48:51
Speaker 2: Stars that we went to school with. He exhumes dead
48:54
Speaker 2: bodies as part of criminal cases. That's what he does
48:57
Speaker 2: for a living. Now he's famous for it. Yeah, It's
48:59
Speaker 2: like when you see the weird Facebook posts, You're like, yeah,
49:01
Speaker 2: I need a guy who specializes in an Arizona vehicular law.
49:06
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, yeah, what you really? Oh I
49:08
Speaker 1: got a guy a history.
49:10
Speaker 2: Class, and so yeah. They decide to reach out to
49:13
Speaker 2: Jim Stars, Eric's old childhood friend, who digs up dead
49:17
Speaker 2: bodies for criminal cases, and they exhume the body of
49:22
Speaker 2: Frank Olson and Eric talks about seeing the body and
49:26
Speaker 2: if there's any part in this where Eric Olsen seems
49:31
Speaker 2: a little weird, it's in talking about the dead body,
49:34
Speaker 2: which understandable, I guess, yeah, you know, but he points
49:38
Speaker 2: out he says he touched the skull, but since that
49:41
Speaker 2: revelation and the silence that followed it wasn't awkward enough.
49:45
Speaker 2: He also adds that you could quote even make out
49:48
Speaker 2: the penis like not the job ab out nothing, like
49:55
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, but you know, I mean did did did
49:57
Speaker 2: they club him on the dick?
49:58
Speaker 3: Thinking like, no kid want to look at their dead
50:01
Speaker 3: dad's dick to see signs of force trauma.
50:05
Speaker 2: But what's interesting is the body. The point Eric's getting
50:09
Speaker 2: at is the body is shockingly well preserved for having
50:13
Speaker 2: been buried this long, Like it's not just a skeleton,
50:17
Speaker 2: like there's still some skin and things on it, and
50:20
Speaker 2: they're able to determine that. For one thing, there's no
50:23
Speaker 2: signs of the body going through glass, which if you
50:28
Speaker 2: dove through a window, you're gonna be tore up right,
50:31
Speaker 2: And what that implies is that someone broke the glass
50:35
Speaker 2: out first and then jumped, which he could have done also.
50:38
Speaker 2: But there's also a hematoma on his forehead that the
50:44
Speaker 2: medical examiner claimed was from him going through the window.
50:48
Speaker 2: So if you hit the window with your forehead and
50:50
Speaker 2: go through, you're gonna have glass that's gonna come into
50:54
Speaker 2: contact with the rest of your body.
50:56
Speaker 1: So one of those broke his forehead and then threw
50:58
Speaker 1: himself out right.
51:00
Speaker 2: And so basically Star goes on TV and says Frank
51:07
Speaker 2: Olsen was murdered. And this is the part that really
51:12
Speaker 2: blew my mind and makes me think we should do this.
51:15
Speaker 2: For the episode, Eric Olsen hears about CIA assassination manuals
51:20
Speaker 2: and just calls someone at the CIA and was like, Hey,
51:23
Speaker 2: are those a real thing? And can people see them?
51:26
Speaker 2: And they're like, which one.
51:27
Speaker 1: Do you want?
51:29
Speaker 2: And they send it all of these assassination manuals, and
51:34
Speaker 2: in one of them, It says the preferred method of
51:37
Speaker 2: killing someone is to drop them out of a window,
51:43
Speaker 2: and that you should when the authorities arrived, say you
51:47
Speaker 2: left the room and that when you came back, the
51:50
Speaker 2: person had gone through the window. And you have no idea.
51:52
Speaker 2: You just play the distraught friend who was there when
51:56
Speaker 2: someone committed suicide.
51:57
Speaker 1: And you don't even send it one and he's like
52:00
Speaker 1: page thirty one and thirty two. You know, you got
52:02
Speaker 1: it all in there.
52:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, he like he specifies what he's looking for, and
52:06
Speaker 2: they just go, oh, you want the first one. Oh yeah.
52:09
Speaker 2: So not long after the CIA publishes its first assassination
52:13
Speaker 2: manual about how a great way to kill a person,
52:16
Speaker 2: they also say you should strike a blow above their
52:19
Speaker 2: right or left eye to incapacitate them first, and then
52:23
Speaker 2: drop them out a window. Yeah, which is exactly what
52:25
Speaker 2: it exactly what fucking happened to Frank Olson. And that
52:31
Speaker 2: that's what the rest of the documentary becomes, is looking
52:36
Speaker 2: into whether this was or not even looking into just
52:39
Speaker 2: discussing the fact that this wasn't like a buy the book,
52:43
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, it wasn't the CIA drugging someone and
52:47
Speaker 2: he went crazy and killed himself, and they did an oopsie,
52:50
Speaker 2: they fucking assassinated this guy. And the implication is that
52:56
Speaker 2: it was because what I think happened is he took
52:59
Speaker 2: LSD and turned into a fucking peace nick and was like, man, I.
53:04
Speaker 1: Can't do this.
53:05
Speaker 3: You know, war is wrong, Like these fucking chemical weapons
53:08
Speaker 3: and career are no good.
53:09
Speaker 1: I mean, these rabbits didn't do anything to anybody.
53:13
Speaker 2: And at that point, like, do you he knows too much?
53:16
Speaker 3: Ye made a bad hiring call. Yeah, and then also
53:21
Speaker 3: you shouldn't hire people. And then Ella's d the ship
53:24
Speaker 3: out of them.
53:25
Speaker 2: Lesson learned and yeah, it it seemed like once I
53:30
Speaker 2: heard that, I was like, well, the documentary could be
53:33
Speaker 2: over right now, because it's like that's that's clearly what happened.
53:38
Speaker 2: And it from there, like episode five, there's some really
53:43
Speaker 2: crazy shit. For one thing, we find out that one
53:47
Speaker 2: of the people they took him to see in addition
53:50
Speaker 2: to doctor Abramson in New York, was a magician named
53:55
Speaker 2: John Mulholland. And they're they're reasoning for this was when
53:59
Speaker 2: you're questioning reality, nothing better than card trick. And that's
54:03
Speaker 2: the thing they were like, well, we they're reasoning for
54:07
Speaker 2: this or the official explanation was, well, we thought it
54:10
Speaker 2: would cheer him up, and then we find out John
54:13
Speaker 2: mulholland also wrote a sleight of hand manual for the
54:17
Speaker 2: CIA about how to spike drinks without anyone seeing it.
54:23
Speaker 1: Oh god.
54:24
Speaker 2: So I get the sense that Frank was just watching
54:27
Speaker 2: so hard and was like, don't you put anything in
54:30
Speaker 2: my drink?
54:30
Speaker 1: Yeah.
54:31
Speaker 2: They were like, let's take him to moholland he'll get them. Yeah.
54:33
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's like it's so funny.
54:35
Speaker 3: It's like if you're gonna, if you're gonna go on
54:39
Speaker 3: this entertainment trip to New York City, you're just like, well,
54:41
Speaker 3: it's already on the payroll. I mean, this will really
54:43
Speaker 3: cut out some of the some of the accounting, you know,
54:46
Speaker 3: work on this whole assassination. Yeah, it's like you can't
54:50
Speaker 3: even see a third party magician.
54:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it it's it's such like from there, the
54:56
Speaker 2: rest of the documentary is just them kind of talking
55:01
Speaker 2: about this being a cover story like it. I feel
55:04
Speaker 2: like it did get a little long. The seymour Hurst stuff,
55:07
Speaker 2: which we already brought up, happens in episode six, which, yeah,
55:10
Speaker 2: that's there's a whole lot on that, and it is
55:12
Speaker 2: interesting hearing him talking about his source and what he
55:15
Speaker 2: may or may have not heard, But basically Seymour Hirst
55:20
Speaker 2: confirms that this was a murder. Yeah, this was an execution. Yeah,
55:24
Speaker 2: and so many carried out by the CIA.
55:26
Speaker 1: Hey, can't you know?
55:27
Speaker 2: And he also he also hints that it wasn't just
55:33
Speaker 2: a one off thing. It was just a program we
55:36
Speaker 2: had in place to deal with dissidents at the time
55:40
Speaker 2: in the United States. Yeah, which, what are the chances
55:43
Speaker 2: that's not happening anymore?
55:45
Speaker 3: Like, I mean, yeah, I mean it's at this point.
55:48
Speaker 3: I'm sure the program has evolved. I mean, because for sure,
55:52
Speaker 3: looking at it in retrospect, seems a bit sloppy, you know.
55:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder what it's going to be.
55:57
Speaker 3: I wonder what we're going to find out it is,
55:59
Speaker 3: you know, in our right now, what the kind of
56:01
Speaker 3: standard operating procedure for taking someone out of the system is.
56:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, probably like sexual abuse allegations or something.
56:10
Speaker 3: Maybe you're just like, yeah, enjoy your new free self
56:13
Speaker 3: driving car. Curtesy of the CIA.
56:17
Speaker 2: So yeah, there's I mean, there's a lot more we
56:19
Speaker 2: could go into, but I don't want to give the
56:20
Speaker 2: whole documentary away, especially not the interesting episodes, which are
56:25
Speaker 2: episodes three through six. Yeah, I did like it better
56:29
Speaker 2: the second time I watched it. The first time, I
56:31
Speaker 2: was like, I was in Wisconsin and I was probably
56:34
Speaker 2: smoking a ton of weed and just sitting on my
56:36
Speaker 2: mom's couch like as a good conspiracy buff shit.
56:40
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, really, that's that's really recharging the batters.
56:44
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I just wasn't as into it.
56:47
Speaker 2: But the second time around, I liked it a lot more.
56:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, I dug it. It was.
56:51
Speaker 2: It was kind of a little up and down, but
56:53
Speaker 2: I mean at the end of it, it'll feel pretty
56:55
Speaker 2: worth it. Yeah, so people should watch it. That's that's Wormwood. Yeah,
56:59
Speaker 2: it's uh of a you know, let's uh be aware
57:02
Speaker 2: of Eric Olsen's struggle here because it's an important one. Yeah,
57:07
Speaker 2: and I think it's I think they make a pretty
57:09
Speaker 2: convincing case that this was probably it definitely makes me
57:14
Speaker 2: want to look into US using chemical weapons in Korea.
57:18
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that for because because yeah, just a weird
57:21
Speaker 1: fucking dropping a suitcase full of bugs.
57:23
Speaker 2: Because at one point they bring up nine to eleven
57:25
Speaker 2: and I'm like, shit, did we do nine to eleven
57:27
Speaker 2: to cover the fact that we murdered this guy in
57:28
Speaker 2: the fifties. Yeah, Like, it just keeps going down this
57:31
Speaker 2: rabbit hole. It's like every like every like, did wait,
57:35
Speaker 2: did so you cut off your dick to so you
57:37
Speaker 2: wouldn't find out you got herpes because you cheated on her?
57:39
Speaker 1: Like it's one of those things. It's almost yeah, at.
57:41
Speaker 2: A certain point, just be like oops, you know, and
57:43
Speaker 2: you'd be like, ah, why you and then we could
57:45
Speaker 2: eventually get better, But it's always just a go fuck,
57:48
Speaker 2: Like wasn't they're coming over in six minutes?
57:49
Speaker 1: Adam?
57:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it just like, especially with that assassination
57:54
Speaker 2: manual out there, like it would be hard to go yeah,
57:58
Speaker 2: but just him, we just murdered him. I just just
58:00
Speaker 2: after that we realized it was a bad idea. Yeah,
58:03
Speaker 2: but it's not because we still don't know anything about
58:05
Speaker 2: chemical weapons in Korea.
58:07
Speaker 1: This is home.
58:07
Speaker 4: This is how I'm looking at the CIA going forward
58:09
Speaker 4: with this show, is that the CIA is just a
58:11
Speaker 4: bad boyfriend. Yeah you know, yeah, kind of got into this,
58:15
Speaker 4: wanted to do the right thing, and then it fucks
58:18
Speaker 4: up and it just keeps like, you know, leading you
58:20
Speaker 4: on and making you feel crazy for looking into it
58:23
Speaker 4: a manipulative boyfriend.
58:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. So that's Wormwood.
58:28
Speaker 2: Everyone should go watch it. Uh, when the fuck does
58:31
Speaker 2: this come out? Weeks from now? Yeah, sometime in March
58:36
Speaker 2: when we got to plug this is this is a
58:40
Speaker 2: free episode. I think we said it was Patreon when
58:43
Speaker 2: oh no, Yeah, yeah, it's Patreon only.
58:44
Speaker 1: So don't worry about subscribing. You already do.
58:47
Speaker 2: That, baby, We're already in the No. Kids, Hey, call
58:49
Speaker 2: our voicemail line. We're gonna start taking voicemails on our
58:53
Speaker 2: episodes like we used to five o' five three at
58:55
Speaker 2: six seven six seven seven or five o' five three
58:58
Speaker 2: on Pops for the love of God, Specify what show
59:01
Speaker 2: you're calling.
59:01
Speaker 1: About, man, love those voicemails.
59:03
Speaker 2: They're fucking wild, always so much fun.
59:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great time.
59:06
Speaker 2: Looking forward to getting back into those and what.
59:09
Speaker 1: Do you got the plug?
59:10
Speaker 2: Oh boy, I'm gonna be on tour all over the
59:12
Speaker 2: place with the Mean Boys podcast doing stand up live
59:15
Speaker 2: podcasts for going to Wisconsin, Chicago, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philly, DC,
59:21
Speaker 2: and New York City all throughout the month of April.
59:24
Speaker 2: Tickets for that are on Me Boys podcast dot com.
59:26
Speaker 2: A couple of dates for myself personally. I'm gonna be
59:28
Speaker 2: in Austin, Texas headlining the Belveda Room, really cool little
59:31
Speaker 2: comedy club run by some great guys. That's happening in June,
59:35
Speaker 2: the exact dates of which just gave me and right
59:37
Speaker 2: here in southern California to be headlining the Ontario Improv
59:39
Speaker 2: for my Adam Todd Brown Birthday Without Adam Todd Brown
59:42
Speaker 2: Spectacular March twentieth. Go on my Twitter and grab some
59:46
Speaker 2: free tickets for that.
59:47
Speaker 1: That'll be a lot of fun.
59:48
Speaker 2: All right, Let's get the fuck out of here. Connor
59:51
Speaker 2: say goodbye, peace, guys, goodbye everybody.
59:53
Speaker 1: We love you, people of
1:00:00
Speaker 2: Earth who planet deserve to be destroyed.