Latest / Speaking of Meaning / Listening to the Cause: Climate Leadership, Justice & Communication with Annam Chaudhry

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Listening to the Cause: Climate Leadership, Justice & Communication with Annam Chaudhry · Speaking of Meaning

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Speaking of Meaning, everybody.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ibrahim, and today I'm joined by Anam Chaudhry.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Anam has been named Oslo's Green Citizen of the Year.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: She's an expert in ESG,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: environmental,
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: social,
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: and governance,
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: and she's also an expert in Arctic leadership.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Her work bridges science, climate, justice, and human stories.
• 0:27
  She is a board veteran,
• 0:29
  a founder,
• 0:30
  and a powerful voice for authentic leadership.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: She's been nominated for many prestigious awards,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: and she works internationally for her green projects.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 0:43
  today she joins me to explore how we can use communication to
• 0:48
  bridge the gap
• 0:50
  between local action and global impact and how we can lead with
• 0:54
  courage in a world
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: of continuous change.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Anam, welcome to the show.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Ibrahim.
• 1:06
  Now,
• 1:07
  I've read a lot about you and you seem to be a young,
• 1:11
  fascinating woman.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Can you tell me who is Anam and what is her mission?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: I would just like to start with thanking you for the opportunity,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: for what you're doing out there.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: That's very important.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: However,
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: I also want to add that,
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: my work,
• 1:30
  it connects the dots that are missing in the community and why
• 1:37
  it is important to
• 1:38
  address them is because of the necessity of the urgency of
• 1:43
  climate change.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: In my own words,
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: working with climate and environmental leadership,
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: focusing on sustainability,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: but also like design thinking about how the community should be,
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: can be,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_03: and would look better for people.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_03: So it's all about,
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: trying to get sustainability in all the kind of value chain,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: of the society.
• 2:11
  So if this helps connecting my word to the description,
• 2:20
  that's how I will describe this.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And what is exactly your mission?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: What do you try to accomplish?
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: the thing is just that,
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 2:31
  sometimes climate is very well misunderstood because it has
• 2:36
  been the language of
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_03: only scientists.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_03: It has not been commonly understood and well understood.
• 2:44
  I mean,
• 2:45
  only in Norway,
• 2:46
  we have one fourth of Norwegian people that are climate
• 2:50
  deniers.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_03: So my mission is not only,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 2:53
  to convince the climate deniers of that there is a necessity of
• 2:56
  change for the
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: climate,
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: of why climate is so important generally for people as well,
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: because there are also people who does not understand climate change.
• 3:09
  So my mission is here to make climate and sustainability well
• 3:16
  understood in the
• 3:16
  society and how we can thrive together with all these changes
• 3:20
  that are happening.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And do you work closely with corporations as well?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yes,
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  SPEAKER_03: I do work very closely with corporations because I try to,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: not only bring in the knowledge,
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  SPEAKER_03: but also bring in the value creation of how your corporates can thrive.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_03: Because it is very important to have this whole...
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: a whole value change working together,
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  SPEAKER_03: because without it,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: we won't be able to see the changes in society.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: So corporations have a lot of not only the power,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: but they also have the solutions for working with people,
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: working with the society and working with technology.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_03: So if you don't work with corporations,
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  SPEAKER_03: you won't be able to see the changes that we want to see.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Is that where the ESG comes in?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And can you tell me about that?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_03: the term environmental,
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: social and governance,
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  SPEAKER_03: it is almost,
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  SPEAKER_03: it's not almost,
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  SPEAKER_03: it is a circle,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: of how things work together.
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  SPEAKER_03: You know,
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  you have the environmental urgency and you have the
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  environmental frameworks,
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  SPEAKER_03: but these frameworks are not necessarily only that,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: governance can work with.
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  SPEAKER_03: You know, we need the people to work with that.
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  SPEAKER_03: We need the corporations to work with that.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: So it goes, you know, like on a circle.
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  SPEAKER_03: And how we can do that is like,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: when we are talking about,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: for example,
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  SPEAKER_03: if you're a consumer,
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  SPEAKER_03: how can a consumer,
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  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
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  SPEAKER_03: buy good products?
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  Who has the responsibilities for buying the good products and
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  where do you want to reach it?
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  SPEAKER_03: And without the governance support, the corporates cannot...
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  SPEAKER_03: because they also need a framework, they also need to report.
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  SPEAKER_03: And then,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: consumers,
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  SPEAKER_03: when they buy stuff,
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  SPEAKER_03: they would like to have a good product that one can last.
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  SPEAKER_03: Secondly, is a good quality and they know that it's fair produced.
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  SPEAKER_03: So this whole thing with ESG is not, you know, only to one entity.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's for the whole circle to work together.
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  SPEAKER_03: So this is how,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: this whole ESG is working,
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  SPEAKER_03: but it's also working in leadership and in many areas.
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  SPEAKER_03: in many sectors and fields as well.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so do you find it challenging or difficult to get leaders' attention,
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: to get corporations' attention,
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  SPEAKER_00: to actually commit to the climate?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: Honestly speaking, you know, I have a various international background.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_03: And whenever I speak to,
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: even if it's a university from corporations to governance,
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  SPEAKER_03: I see the will is very much high.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: The challenge can be,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  when they don't have enough competent people that can work
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  steadfast on these kind
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  SPEAKER_03: of missions.
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  SPEAKER_03: And also,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: there is sometimes,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: they have the frameworks,
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  SPEAKER_03: but they don't have enough skills.
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  um regularities but i have not seen that much of challenge you
• 6:45
  know not seeing that
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  much of you know like no we don't want to do this it's more
• 6:49
  like okay this sounds
• 6:50
  amazing this is perfect but who will do the work so this has
• 6:55
  maybe been the
• 6:56
  challenge you know to bring the right people to do the right
• 6:59
  kind of things and
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: this is very you know sustainable leadership gets its um
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: its steadfast role,
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  that it has to be very much defined and the right people
• 7:11
  working with sustainable
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  SPEAKER_03: leadership.
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  SPEAKER_03: That has been the one thing that I have noticed that is important.
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  And so do you think corporations need to commit and work on
• 7:24
  these tasks in order to
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: be able to function in the future?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because this is the future as well.
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  SPEAKER_03: For sure, for sure, Ibrahim.
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  SPEAKER_03: But not only corporations,
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  SPEAKER_03: but also,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  governance needs one more step ahead of making sure that they
• 7:46
  are also on board in
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: supporting these kind of corporations.
• 7:49
  Because,
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  you know,
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  when we look at the numbers from 1990 to 2025,
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  even,
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  we can see that only 2%.
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  SPEAKER_03: 2.9% of Norwegian's economy is circular.
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  SPEAKER_03: And now we are thinking about, okay, but circularity is so important.
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  And we tend to think to ourselves that we are working so
• 8:12
  circular all the time.
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  And meanwhile,
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  we are also thinking who has reached the 2.9% of Norwegian's
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  economy?
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  SPEAKER_03: Who are they?
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, they are corporations.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's not governance who has, you know, who has this kind of...
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  function in it,
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  you know,
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  there are corporates themselves that have worked to get this
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  number.
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  SPEAKER_03: So according to,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: Economy Gap Report,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: we can see these kind of numbers,
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  but we also see that it is the corporates that are doing this
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  kind of work in
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  SPEAKER_03: Norway.
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  SPEAKER_03: So then it comes, you know, more like, okay, if corporations...
• 8:52
  are the ones who are making sure that we are circling,
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  what is the governance doing?
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  So this is why ESG is so important because also corporates have
• 9:01
  to show the will
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  SPEAKER_03: and are they enough?
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  SPEAKER_03: Are they doing enough?
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  SPEAKER_03: Most probably, but is governance supporting them enough?
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  SPEAKER_03: That's another question.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you also work internationally, right?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Is Scandinavia leading this path or are they behind?
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  SPEAKER_03: Surprisingly,
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  SPEAKER_03: Abraham,
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  I was always thinking that since I have this Arctic leadership
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  that I was like
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  SPEAKER_03: focusing on Nordics a lot.
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  SPEAKER_03: But if I actually lift the gaze,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: a little bit higher up and look to other countries,
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  SPEAKER_03: you can actually see that,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  SPEAKER_03: a lot of innovation is happening in Europe right now.
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  France is,
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  for instance,
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  doing amazing when it comes to even agriculture,
• 9:54
  to circular economy.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: And they're also having a lot of idea, concepts and supports.
• 10:04
  that are leading to this kind of innovation you know they're
• 10:07
  working very much in
• 10:10
  future right now and even if you go to japan because my mostly
• 10:15
  my work is also
• 10:16
  connected to universities and i can see not only in academia
• 10:21
  you know that we are
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: seeing this kind of um
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: this kind of will to do something with green transition.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: But we are seeing it in overall governance,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_03: in the products,
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: in their thinking of creating more future design thinking solutions,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: that the change is happening rapidly.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: So it's actually a little bit, you know...
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Shocking to see that we can do so much more.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: But what we are doing is that,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_03: we are actually,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: we have so high numbers in our consumption right now.
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  SPEAKER_03: We are actually working against ourselves, against our values.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: And this is a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_03: you know,
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  shocking when you look at the numbers that we are on the top of
• 11:12
  consumptions.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_03: and so less doubt upon a circular economy.
• 11:21
  And when you look at other places,
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  they have done,
• 11:24
  they're doing more,
• 11:25
  much more.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give me an example of circular economy?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, for sure.
• 11:32
  I mean,
• 11:34
  from a place we have to go away from linear thinking to more
• 11:38
  circularity.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: And a very recent example of it's not only,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: about only the production change,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 11:47
  of using the four Rs,
• 11:49
  which are reuse,
• 11:52
  recycle,
• 11:54
  reduction,
• 11:55
  and,
• 11:56
  you know,
• 11:56
  like repair.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: But also we have to, you know, see where this is happening a lot.
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  SPEAKER_03: We can also see in the third world countries,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: in Pakistan,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: that,
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_03: they don't have this kind of thinking.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: They know the value of, you know,
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: repairing a product.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_03: They see the value of reusing a product to recycle.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: even though,
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_03: they don't have the best waste system and,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_03: creating energy from waste.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: However, you know, they have that in mind that I can use this again.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_03: I can
• 12:36
  I can recycle or I can repair this before,
• 12:39
  you know,
• 12:40
  I really declare a product for rates.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, the whole thinking behind it is so important.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: So this is,
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: this is,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_03: how you think about circular economy in very,
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: light version.
• 13:01
  I mean,
• 13:01
  I can go more technical,
• 13:02
  but this is a very light version of it,
• 13:04
  though.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: We like the light version.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Anam, I've read that you became the green citizen of the year.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me about that.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, where to start?
• 13:22
  I've been working with Green Transition steadfastly since 10
• 13:27
  years now of experience.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I've always believed in that,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: that the change,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: it might sound a little bit cliche,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: but let me just say that,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: the change starts with you.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: However,
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: coming from a very technical scientific background,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_03: I was more like,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: into numbers,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: modeling,
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: etc.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_03: However,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 13:51
  I saw that it has a meaningful impact for me as a scientist and
• 13:56
  I know where it can
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: lead me.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: But where can I get the help of people?
• 14:02
  You know,
• 14:02
  how can I create the meaning behind what I'm modeling right
• 14:07
  now?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: So what happened was like,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: I was working so much with green campaigns because I have a very,
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: very varied background from project management,
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: leading national campaigns.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I was seeing that, okay, somehow it's working.
• 14:25
  But I want to,
• 14:26
  you know,
• 14:26
  make it more effective,
• 14:27
  make the impact more,
• 14:30
  you know,
• 14:32
  like
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: for a longer duration.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe this should be something in our habits.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe there should be, you know, something in long term thinking.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: So what happened,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: Ibrahim,
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: I will tell you,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_03: this is very personal,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: but most of the people who knows me,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_03: they know that I've been in the floods in Pakistan in 2022.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_03: While I was there, I was witnessing so much brutality, you know, and
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: It was almost like, you know, this is not justice.
• 15:06
  There's a population over here who has not committed any
• 15:11
  ecocide or eco crime,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: but they're the one bearing the effects of climate change.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_03: On that level,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: it's just,
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: where you just want to scream that what is happening,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: how much injustice is there out there?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: So this is where, you know, I became the voice of climate justice.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: And I said that this is what we should do,
• 15:36
  because if we have our consumption in Norway that is leading to
• 15:42
  more and more
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: climate injustice all over the world,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: then we have a responsibility.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: So I went from this scientifically background to more into communication,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: more into,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 15:56
  getting people to make them understand about something that is
• 16:01
  so sometimes very
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: hard to understand,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: but making it more like to people.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: How can this give you the ownership of climate?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_03: How can this give you the authority of owning your own future?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I went from something,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: like from distance,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: even if you are addressing things that are,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_03: happening so far away,
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: but to more collective to yourself.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: So this is,
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 16:33
  like giving them the ownership of their own future was the
• 16:36
  reason of winning that
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: price.
• 16:38
  And I've been working a lot,
• 16:40
  you know,
• 16:41
  with my own campaigns and with community campaigns.
• 16:47
  And as well as I had one thing,
• 16:49
  you know,
• 16:49
  there's something called EU's Green Deal,
• 16:51
  right?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: But I was working with one concept called My Green Deal.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: And my Green Deal was a very low-scale project,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: just a QR code,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: which people just,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: scanned and told,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: like it could be anyone,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: anyone,
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: like someone from even,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: fifth grade or sixth grader,
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: who can just scan a QR code easily.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: What does green nature,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_03: what does green transition,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_03: what does sustainability means to you and your community?
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: Suddenly,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: I was seeing a lot of replies,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: a lot of people being so active in this low-scale project.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it was giving so much feedback and data.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then it tells us,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: when we read and people say,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: no,
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: people don't care about green transition.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: People don't care about nature, sustainability.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't believe that because I had numbers.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I could literally show,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:56
  from what kind of age and where in Oslo actually people want to
• 18:01
  see more of these
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: green initiatives.
• 18:04
  So this is what,
• 18:05
  you know,
• 18:05
  one thing led to another and suddenly it became a very big
• 18:09
  thing.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: This was the main background for, you know, winning the prize.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: However,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: I've also done a lot of advocacy,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: giving girls a lot of role working with great projects,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: small projects.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: But it was just like maybe working around the clock just to,
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_03: give something back because I knew I could.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Your background is so fascinating.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I sense that this has shaped your voice from early age.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Did you know what you wanted to do when you were young,
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: or is it something that developed as you grew up?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: Actually...
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's yes and a no there.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: I knew that I was always going to work with people,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: for people,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_03: and I just didn't know,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: what it could be.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: For a very long term,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_03: my dream was always like,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: I want to work in an international humanitarian organization.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: But then,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: I started,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: with business studies and going very hard into,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: corporate studies,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_03: et cetera,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: which is not wrong at all.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_03: I never see that as a wrong choice.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: But somehow I was not shaping myself in that direction where I really,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: really,
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: really wanted to go into.
• 19:36
  So,
• 19:37
  yes,
• 19:37
  I knew what I wanted to do because I could see that,
• 19:41
  you know,
• 19:41
  and I could feel that.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, this is good to know, but it needs more meaning.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: So purpose, you know, it has to be very purpose-driven.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: I couldn't,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_03: go into only a banking position,
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_03: and doing only accounts.
• 19:59
  But if that accounts and audits,
• 20:01
  maybe it could be for microloans,
• 20:03
  for,
• 20:04
  you know...
• 20:05
  for Bangladesh or something,
• 20:07
  you know,
• 20:07
  like trying to build a community that I'm all in.
• 20:11
  So yes and no,
• 20:12
  like I was in the right field,
• 20:14
  but I was just trying to find the right purpose.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you did eventually find your field.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: You engage with leaders, you are a leader yourself.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: My experience is that a lot of leaders try to find solutions
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: and then perhaps neglect the obvious and the important communication.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so what do you think happens when we only focus on solutions,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: but we don't think about how we communicate the ideas that we have,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: especially if it's pretty complex ideas?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: This happens to,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: all of us somewhere in even projects,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: when you are leading projects,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: where you are maybe sometimes leading conversations that you don't really
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: communicate.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: And even,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: Ibrahim,
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: with solving,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: some kind of solution,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: sometimes the solution is too much into your head.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you forget sometimes that, you know, a person...
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: Who's just standing in front of you is not in your head.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: And what happens there is that sometimes,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: you can have this kind of frustration and then,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: you just lock yourself and,
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: in between the four lines of A4 paper.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you're not seeing the whole picture that,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:44
  maybe things has to be communicated another way so that people
• 21:50
  can understand.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: when looking at problems,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: like there will always,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: what drive a leader is that,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: they're not only looking for solutions,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: but they're also looking for,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: change.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_03: They're looking for that even,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: sometimes,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: there's a very famous saying,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: say that if it ain't broke,
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: don't fix it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's a famous saying.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_03: But the thing with leadership is that
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes things doesn't have to be broken.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: They can just be better.
• 22:27
  We don't have to wait,
• 22:29
  you know,
• 22:29
  for things to be broken in order to fix it.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: And this is very, you know, the complexity of leading, communicating.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: This is where, you know, the frustration can start.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 22:43
  sometimes it's just about only providing better solution
• 22:46
  because you see something
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: in your head,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_03: but you need to communicate and make people understand.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: That, hey, look, this is sustainable.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: This is design thinking.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: This is how we can try better.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: So I believe that this has always been something for me.
• 23:10
  I guess sometimes it's pretty straightforward to communicate
• 23:14
  with people who agree with you.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: They applaud you.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: They agree with you.
• 23:20
  They have the same goal,
• 23:21
  the same ambitions,
• 23:23
  or perhaps they don't have enough knowledge.
• 23:26
  But how do you communicate and convince and sell an idea to,
• 23:33
  for instance,
• 23:34
  a climate denier?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: I love this question because just yesterday,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: I was watching a very famous TED talk of someone who lives in Australia.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: And he was very popular for his show called Kill All the Climate Deniers.
• 23:56
  And this is very fascinating because the conclusion that he
• 24:00
  came up with was
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_03: something that I will totally agree with,
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_03: that we are deniers somehow.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_03: Each one of us can be a denier.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing is not only about being a climate denier,
• 24:14
  but we are also deniers of how we want to perceive and look
• 24:20
  into the future.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: And we will always be very, you know, different there.
• 24:26
  And I will just say that how to convince a climate denier is
• 24:31
  that I never disagree with it.
• 24:36
  I personally don't disagree with them because I know their
• 24:39
  frustration and I try to
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: address it and address the frustration of how it is.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: It's also,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: it can be very frustrating for you as well because,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: we have seen a lot of climate activists getting the negative media,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: really,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_03: like people look at climate activists as a problem right now.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just saying that sometimes,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: Ibrahim,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: you need to make knowledge so easy,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: so relatable.
• 25:14
  Okay,
• 25:14
  Anam,
• 25:14
  so you told me that you don't disagree with them or you don't
• 25:19
  argue with them.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: But how do we convince people who disagree with us?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: The thing is just that,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_03: why I don't argue Ibrahim or,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: it's not about that I'm not having a discussion.
• 25:34
  I'm having a discussion,
• 25:35
  but I'm trying just to understand their point of view.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: I can understand that,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: they're also frustrated and I can see that,
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: people in itself is not always seeing an eye to eye with you.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to accept that.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: I don't get aggressive.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm trying to find a middle ground.
• 25:59
  Sometimes it's okay that we can,
• 26:00
  you know,
• 26:01
  not agree always on climate change.
• 26:08
  But you have to agree with me that you're not happy right now
• 26:12
  and something has to change.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: What has to change?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, you get into these deep conversations.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: Let's forget the climate just for a second.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get deep into it.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: And it's the same thing,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: with people,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: sometimes,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: we can see people in,
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:33
  when they discriminate you or there can be a racism and that's
• 26:37
  a very hard
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_03: conversation as well.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_03: But we need to have these conversations,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_03: even if we make ourselves a little bit uncomfortable,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: because I'm not too comfortable with people like me as well.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's not that I'm looking for people,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: who is so optimistically,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: let's get the change happen.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's very nice to meet you.
• 26:59
  But sometimes we need to meet people in order to make the big
• 27:04
  changes because that
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: is where,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_03: we can actually start innovating.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes it's actually better
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: To meet somebody and they resist your ideas,
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: but then you can talk about it,
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: than to deal with somebody,
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: with a leader,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: with a colleague,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: with friends who tell you,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: great,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: and then nothing happens.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's better to have that person who is resisting you,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: who's resisting your ideas,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: but engaging with you.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think engagement is very important.
• 27:42
  It also gives you the data,
• 27:44
  the information,
• 27:46
  also some kind of new ideas,
• 27:48
  you know.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm not saying that it's always very good to be in a room with so,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: aggressive denies all the time.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: But this is what I'm saying that,
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: and I agree with this,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: back to this,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: Australian famous...
• 28:04
  a TED talker who was saying that kill all the climate deniers
• 28:08
  because at the end he
• 28:09
  also said that we are also deniers because if we also deny to
• 28:13
  me deny to I with
• 28:15
  another person then we're all deniers so we need to actually
• 28:21
  come out of this our
• 28:22
  own comfort zone sometimes and try to see and seek for these
• 28:29
  different people and
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: yeah
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we're not going to kill anybody?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: No, we're not going to kill anybody.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: Not today.
• 28:40
  Anam,
• 28:43
  as a woman,
• 28:45
  you know,
• 28:45
  a young,
• 28:46
  strong woman in spaces that often are technical...
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: political,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: and perhaps often male-dominated,
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: what challenge have you faced in being heard or taking up space?
• 29:07
  This has been a very long journey,
• 29:09
  Ibrahim,
• 29:09
  like from where I started to where I am today.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I would lie if I say that everything has been very smooth.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: It has been very challenging to be heard
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: But,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: I have used the skills or the knowledge or,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: the experience or whatever you like to call it in my advance to be heard,
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_03: because this has given me the evidence,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: the data that has been important to not only get into conversations,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: but also lead conversations.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because sometimes,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: it is like you if you want to,
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: for instance,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: create a project,
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: let us say in Pakistan,
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_03: where the geopolitical situation can change over the night.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: And then you're standing there alone,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: but trying to make the changes,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: because they have the technology or they have the,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: not the technology,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: although,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: but they have the,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:17
  full scale of geographical background where they can drive this
• 30:22
  kind of technology.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: But now I'm speaking about green energy.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: So why would it take so long, you know, to actually get it done?
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then you come into some kind of, you know, political instability.
• 30:37
  But I've been in this kind of environment for years and I've
• 30:42
  seen and this has been
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: my experience,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: like...
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: Things happen.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: Things just take time.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: And you have to just,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: not only suck it down,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: but you have to be very patient around this kind of thing.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: areas, these kind of challenges as well.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: However, it shouldn't let it shape you.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_03: It should make you stronger.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: And these patients have made me more and more stronger and more and more,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: believing in my costs.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: This is why it is needed to speak up because it takes so much time.
• 31:24
  This is why I need to continue communicating or continue taking
• 31:29
  up the places
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_03: because I cannot see anybody else doing it as well.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because, you know, it's easy.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: to give up than to stay resilient.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: And this is why,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_03: it has been so important because at the end of it,
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_03: when you are neglecting too much,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: you're also inviting far more reactions.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: I was going to say trouble,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: but it's not that you're actually not only provocating,
• 32:00
  but you're actually boosting or inviting a conversation that
• 32:04
  you might were not
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: thinking of having.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_03: So this is what has happened,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:10
  of shaping and coming into this kind of forums maybe because of
• 32:17
  this patience,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: that has given me not only the recognition,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: but the acknowledgement of this is needed and now I need to do it.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: But have you felt that,
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:29
  you're not being taken seriously because of your background or
• 32:32
  your gender or
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps your age?
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think, you know, no.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_03: But when it comes to gender, yes.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because it has been very male dominant area and sector and field.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I have examples of where I was the only woman among 40 men.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: And these are middle-aged men that I'm working with.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: 40, did you say 40?
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I said 40, like four zero.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: And you're the only woman there.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_03: But this has sometimes been like, how do you make yourself heard?
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: Because now we have, again, a lot of male
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: That are,
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 33:27
  they're in the room and now you need to convince them and you
• 33:30
  don't want to hear,
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_03: that's just a woman,
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_03: speaking right now.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because people have this kind of stereotypical,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: presumptions of you,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_03: they can't just judge you before you even speak.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that has happened.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: That has happened.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: But it has never stopped me, you know.
• 33:51
  So,
• 33:53
  but I have been working with a lot of different,
• 33:58
  you know,
• 33:59
  areas,
• 34:01
  fields and people.
• 34:03
  But where I could,
• 34:06
  you know,
• 34:07
  whenever I enter the room,
• 34:09
  you can actually sense the energy.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: But then you really have to work against it.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of energy, Anam?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: Well,
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: it can be the kind of energy that,
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: when you walk into our room,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_03: you see the vibe just change.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: You see that people just can look at you.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like, oh, firstly, she's a woman of color.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Secondly, she's a woman.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_03: So this whole thing,
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: can be sometimes a thing that you register at the back of your head.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_03: But it is so much at the back of my head.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: But then I'm like, okay, now we need to, you know,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: break the barrier, break the ice and just go fully.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: So the knowledge and the experience and whatever I have in hand,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: I said that this is stronger than that kind of energy.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just start addressing it.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_03: And let's just pretend that this is just in my head.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: So, yeah.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you can feel the energy, but it's about keep going.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: And not allowing it to hold you back.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, because I don't see a reason of holding myself back.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: This has always been my problem.
• 35:42
  And I will tell you exactly why,
• 35:44
  Ibrahim,
• 35:44
  because I've grown up with three brothers.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: I have grown up with male dominance in my house.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: So for me,
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: like you don't tell me this again,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_03: so this is like since childhood,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: I have been grown up with guys and boys all the time.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: So,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: I had main cousins,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_03: just to,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: just to put a,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: the dot over the I and
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_03: I have three brothers and, you know, uncles.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: And this is the energy.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: So it's only, you know, I see them as, okay, this could be my uncle.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: This could be my cousin or my brother.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just like, okay, you know what?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's going to be okay.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't let them, you know.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: What advice do you have then to young girls and women who have an idea,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: who have big dreams,
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: who would like to create change,
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: but they doubt themselves?
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: I think that self-doubts,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_03: Ibrahim,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: and insecurities,
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_03: they can always follow you regardless of your gender.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: When someone asks me about advices,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_03: it's just like,
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: listen to your cause more than these insecurities.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: What is making you insecure right now won't matter tomorrow.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_03: I have been insecure.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: Believe me, I'm insecure.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe every day I can be in doubt every day.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: There are so many moments.
• 37:32
  But what keeps me going on is that I know that none of this
• 37:36
  would matter in a month of time.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's just here and now.
• 37:41
  Living,
• 37:41
  you know,
• 37:43
  in your own ideas,
• 37:46
  in your dreams,
• 37:48
  this can be so beneficial.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: It can be so beneficial, you know, to live within your true self.
• 37:55
  And it might sound so cliche,
• 37:57
  but I didn't know about these things before actually.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm a LinkedIn influencer.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_03: I could say that by now, but I just reached like 20K followers.
• 38:08
  And what I'm getting every day is like some girl reaching out
• 38:12
  to me and asking me
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: to be their mentor.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just like, honestly speaking...
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: A few years ago,
• 38:19
  I didn't even know what mentorship meant because I didn't have
• 38:22
  any mentor by
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: myself.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: But I was like, okay, let's give it a try.
• 38:27
  And then I saw that there are so many girls out there who
• 38:32
  actually not only need
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: mentor,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: they also need support.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: It can be anything.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it is their career.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_03: It can be daily life thing.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_03: But listen, listen to each other.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: They're just human at the end of the day.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_03: And people need people.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: And this is why I do what I'm doing right now,
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: because I know that there is a society out there,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: who could need this kind of sustainable shift.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: They can need someone to just speak to.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we're just like,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: it takes a village,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: but not necessarily only for a baby,
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: but it takes a village for every kind of human out there.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes people just want to be heard and listen to it.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_03: I take out that time,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: even if it makes,
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: me a little bit,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: it's only 10 minutes of maybe I could,
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_03: take a coffee by myself,
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: but how about I take this with someone?
• 39:26
  So,
• 39:27
  you know,
• 39:27
  making yourself a little bit tangible,
• 39:29
  feasible,
• 39:30
  you know,
• 39:30
  it's so important.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_03: So for me, you know,
• 39:34
  I never knew that I could mentor more than 15 girls each year,
• 39:39
  but I'm doing it.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: And it's,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: it feels good because not only do they succeed in their,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: career,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: but they feel better about themselves.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: And it gives you like,
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 39:51
  maybe it was worth it to take that coffee because I don't know
• 39:56
  where she would be.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, uh,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: being a little bit feasible for her,
• 40:02
  make her believe and give her hope that she can reach out to
• 40:05
  anybody out there who
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: is maybe more credible than me in terms of her career path.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: So this is important, you know, open up yourself.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: Even if there are things that you've never done before,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_03: maybe,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: maybe I should just try.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to your cause, ignore your fears.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 40:29
  What do you wish someone had told you earlier about leadership,
• 40:35
  success,
• 40:36
  and belonging?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this one is a good one.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_03: Leadership comes with it.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if you are a leader, you will know.
• 40:51
  So this is when the leadership advice could be that you will
• 40:56
  know who you are from
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: very early on.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: And listen to your inner self.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_03: That is very important.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: Secondly,
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: about life and everything else,
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: the only advice could be that don't only think about yourself.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_03: what I can do, but what we can do.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: Listen to yourself, yes, but what can we do together?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is very important.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I wish that,
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: someone from the future could take,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 41:31
  this whole tour with me back in the past and just say that
• 41:37
  whatever you do,
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: just try to believe in yourself,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: in your cause and try to listen to that voice.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: And also, you know, when you do that, then try to be there for others.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a very, you know, low skill kind of a wish.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_03: But because,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_03: if you read the room right now,
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: Ibrahim,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_03: we see that the problem with all this,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_03: fuss in the world right now,
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: the geopolitical shift,
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: the leaders that we are meeting every day,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it doesn't make you believe in the future.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: So this is the problem right now.
• 42:24
  But I'm just saying that even among all this kind of
• 42:29
  conversation that we're having
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: in this world right now,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_03: it's so important to just,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_03: listen to yourself.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 42:38
  So what I hear you say is listen to yourself,
• 42:41
  but work for a cause that is bigger than yourself.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's beautiful.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Anam, I know our time is running out.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: I know you have to go soon.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have one question that I ask all of my guests.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the question is,
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: of all the advice you have,
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: all the books you've read,
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: all your experience,
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: if you could give our listeners only one piece of advice for a better,
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: more meaningful life,
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: what would it be?
• 43:20
  it's i would say that it's live in the moment it is so
• 43:26
  important even though i'm a
• 43:27
  very futuristic person and always you know try to have a very
• 43:30
  long-term vision of
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: uh
• 43:35
  where i want to be however i would say that live in the moment
• 43:41
  it is so important
• 43:42
  not only to create a sustainable path for your own life and
• 43:47
  well-being but also
• 43:48
  sustainable path for the future because sometimes we tend to
• 43:52
  move too fast too fast
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_03: for everything and you know and this is this is you know very um
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_03: Very, you know, easy to say, but so difficult to do.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's to live in the moment.
• 44:08
  And this is,
• 44:09
  again,
• 44:10
  you know,
• 44:10
  back to what I was saying that,
• 44:11
  you know,
• 44:12
  listen to yourself.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: Because sometimes, you know, we tend to forget it.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_03: We tend to forget what we have.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: And everything that we worry for, everything that we work for,
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: It can be gone in the moment.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: We never know.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: So appreciate what we have right now.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: The time that we have right now is the good time that we have right now.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: We never know about tomorrow.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: Live in the moment.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: Anam, it was great having you here today.
• 44:41
  You are a fascinating young lady and I'm looking forward to
• 44:45
  following you.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm confident that I'll see you again.
• 44:50
  I'm so glad to hear that Ibrahim and you were so nice to be
• 44:54
  here as well.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: And good luck for your work.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: And for sure, we will be in contact.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to Speaking of Meaning.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: If today's episode helped you see communication in a new way,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: share it with someone you care about.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: A friend, a partner or a colleague who wants to grow.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss an episode.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Ibrahim.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, better communication, greater impact.