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The Goldilocks Dilemma in Senior Leadership with Oliver Johnston · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Everyone.
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  It's Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Thanks for tuning in again this week.
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  Today, I have a special new colleague and Oliver, and I just, are are part of a new
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  mastermind, which I feel very very privileged to be involved with.
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  And Oliver is has done some fascinating work.
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  He's been in the field of leadership.
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  I'm gonna say leadership consulting well over.
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  We don't wanna date you no longer, but over 25, 30 years.
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  And, he's I'm gonna say focusing on an area that, we're seeing a lot more of, lately in the
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  business consulting world, which is stepping out from the top.
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  Where senior leaders kinda are finding that next step about.
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  So now what?
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  I've I've worked very hard.
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  I've I've create the space of maybe starting a legacy with the company that I'm with.
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  And so like now, what do we do?
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  So, Oliver, thanks so much for coming in today to chat with us.
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  My pleasure, Roxanne.
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  So let's that's tell me a little bit about you and kind of your path and we always wanting to
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  do, leadership, developmental leadership consulting work.
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  Was that kind of the thing you went to uni for, or was it something that you kind of fumble
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  along the way.
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  I I think, you know, like, many long careers, it makes sense looking back.
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  But it wasn't planned in the way it turned out.
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  So I actually started my career as a social worker.
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  I I then ran an experimental unit, which was the 1st direct alternative to custody for
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  serious and persistent young offenders.
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  So instead of locking them up to work with them more more constructively in the therapeutic
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  community.
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  And from that, ended up about 3 steps later in leadership development and, was director of
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  leadership consulting for Pena PLC, which is one of the big consultancies in the UK.
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  And I'm now in my second noncore career, so I can tell you a bit more about that.
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  Well, amazing.
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  I didn't know, you know, if I if I heard that on her call, I missed it.
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  So that's interesting because our paths have been kind of similar, with me starting from
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  line.
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  I think I shared that you know, as a psychotherapist, I started with the frontline
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  with the police.
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  That was my very very first job as a new grad.
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  And, talk about learning a lot of skills really, you know, cat on a hot, hot, thin roof
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  and learning how to assess and, connect and relate to people.
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  That was something that I so that I had to learn really quickly.
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  Now I have the degree.
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  Now, what do I do kind of thing?
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  So let's let's talk about, the concept is the goldilocks complex that would, you know, Albert
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  and I thought we would have a chat about.
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  Here you are, you know, and most senior leaders, they may be found their way like
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  Oliver has talked about meandering and finding your spot in senior leadership and your
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  passionate and you have a trajectory.
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  And you know where you you, you know, you kind of go, oh, I like this or I don't like this and
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  you find your path and you you know, you create an, an amazing career And the question becomes,
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  when do you decide is time?
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  It's time to transition, out.
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  When is it too early?
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  And over share a paper with us that we can also share with you, and when is it too late?
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  When what is the sweet spot?
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  And that's what our conversation is gonna be about today.
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  So over Tell me a little bit about what made you wanna focus on this thin edge of the wedge?
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  Well, I've got a few answers to that.
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  One is I turned 70 in August.
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  So, I'm living living breathing example of you have to step out at some point.
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  And it makes sense to do it intelligently as well.
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  So I'm in my second encore career, so I finished this director of leadership consulting
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  in Pena.
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  I then set up my own coaching practice, which I did for 5 years.
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  And loved it.
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  And that's that was always my first love all the way through my career.
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  Coaching was the thing I love to do most.
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  But I was in Panama City, and I was about to go on the platform with 300 people in the
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  audience, and it was delayed 10 minutes because the chief executives, the company wanted to
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  introduce some new stuff.
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  So I'm waiting for 10 minutes, and I was looking around and I thought, I'd been in, you
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  know, week 1, we'd been in India, week 2, the Philippines, week 3, new, US, week 4, etcetera.
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  So we've been going around the world doing this.
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  And I suddenly thought suddenly thought, cause I'd handed me my mind before, when am I gonna
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  stop doing this?
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  I still I loved it.
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  But two things.
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  1, when is there a point comes when I am past my sale by debt?
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  Because if there is a point that that's the case, I want to have stepped out before that.
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  I don't want other people to be saying, He really should have stepped out last year
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  because he was great before that.
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  And so I was I didn't think I was close to that, but I wanted to to be mindful of that.
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  And the second thing was by being so passionate about my career that all the other things I
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  wanted to do, I wasn't doing because I was that was so all encompassing.
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  So, you know, travel and collecting and writing and etcetera, etcetera.
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  So I just decided then that I would retire from that, but I wasn't totally finished with
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  professional because there's nothing I like more than this and coaching conversations or
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  whatever.
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  And I've been doing a lot of work with the the senior people that you had described who were
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  thinking about and preparing to leave from successful big positions.
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  And I thought that's that's work that still needs to be done.
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  I like doing it.
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  So I set up stepping out from the top team, which is the, in which we provide coaching to
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  people with those with that dilemma and in that position And we also do some advisory work with
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  organizations around how do you create a safe environment for senior leaders which is my
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  focus to be able to step out successfully.
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  So that's sort of what what has got us to hear, and it's been It's been like most of these
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  things.
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  It's been a really rich journey of discovery because the more people that you work with, the
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  more people you talk to, the more dimensions to this that you find.
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  So the Goldilocks dilemma, as you say, is for any senior leader, And I see any professional
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  coming to a point where they go, I need to think about the future and when will I step
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  out?
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  You can step out too early.
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  Which means you leave before your job is done.
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  I had I spoke to one chief executive who, who said, I said, what's it like being the chief
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  executive of this complex difficult organization?
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  Of which he was wonderfully successful.
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  And he saw for a long time, he said, you know, it feels like the bridge is to every other part
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  of my life are burning.
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  Which is a very powerful.
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  I said, what do you mean by that?
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  He said the breads to my family.
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  It's my wife.
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  The breads to my children.
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  The breads to my health.
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  The prince to my well-being.
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  Those are all burning.
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  And if I don't do something, we'll collapse.
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  And he his response that was to put his resignation in very quickly.
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  Okay.
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  And left before the job was completed.
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  It would have been so much better.
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  And he I'm saying that because he said this to me later on, if I'd had the chance to really
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  think this through and plan it and I could have extended my tenure if I'd done certain things.
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  So that's leaving too early.
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  Leaving too late is I I worked with Margaret O'Caller who, had a reputation for, I will be
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  retiring in 18 months time and always will be.
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  Right.
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  Because she kept moving the date of the 18 months, and it was causing huge for tracing
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  below her, but it was also damaging her reputation.
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  And it felt like she was hanging on like the unwanted last guest at the party.
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  Right.
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  And then there are people who can get it just right.
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  I'm working with one person at the moment.
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  I'll I'll call him Tony, who is really focused on finishing what he's doing well, but he's
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  also got this wonderful adventure of painting as a professional writing professionally,
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  becoming a non executive director.
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  Working as a coach.
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  So he's created this really rich basket of different activities, and he's gonna spend the
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  1st year just sampling those experimenting with him, and then it'll create what it is.
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  That to me is leaving just right.
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  And he's also worked with his organization as when is the right time?
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  What do I need to finish before I go on, whatever?
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  So that's that's the, the the the goldilocks dilemma.
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  And I suspect where our focus might be today isn't how do you get it just right?
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  Absolutely.
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  Because let's let's let's talk about the, the trajectory of the executive.
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  Right?
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  So, you know, you start and you have all these aspirations.
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  What should?
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  What is a pivoted time or time that's in the life cycle of that executive.
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  How do you know?
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  Right?
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  Because, like, you you might be building Yeah.
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  And all of a sudden you get there because the the goal is achieved, and you're like, oh my
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  goodness.
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  I'm there too early.
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  Is it that they start thinking about it at that point, Oliver, or is it is it different?
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  Cause I'm thinking if you're building, building, building, And there's gonna be a nice
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  crest where you wanna be able to deliver, and then you're gonna find that.
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  But sometimes you don't know when that's gonna come along.
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  So Should executive coaching start earlier with the goal be loss kind of perspective?
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, I think There are lots of different triggers to this, and it's probably about
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  listening to your own thinking.
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  To know when.
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  My the short answer is as early as possible within reason.
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  K.
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  So I work with lots of people who are 10 years out from when they they they're gonna finally
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  sort of step out but they want to make sure that they're in the best position they can be.
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  So they're working on it really early.
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  I have others who have, like, 3 years to go and they're starting it then.
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  I have worked with people who've got 6 weeks to go.
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  That becomes quite a challenge, but A lot can be done in 6 weeks to help the person, you
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  know, to make it successful or whatever.
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  So I think the short answer is as early as possible within reason.
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  And the triggers.
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  I think the thing is to listen for is if it's an internal thing, it's about when does the
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  when does the golden ladder become a golden hamster wheel?
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  When does the gold and ladder become a golden hill?
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  So internally, we're talking about the the leader, or the executive going inside to really
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  start reflecting on he or she wants, going forward.
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  A lot of times, you know, and you know senior leaders, they're driven, A lot of times, they
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  focus a lot, unfortunately, sometimes to the detriment of the other kind of systems in their
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  life.
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  They focus on work a lot and think start to fall apart, or maybe they they don't tend to
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  some of the things that they need to.
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  So at that point, if they're kind of circling the same things and not connecting with
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  themselves is that's that's I think that's a fascinating dilemma because I if I'm thinking
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  I'm in my say forties or whatever, and my children are young, and I'm not seeing them,
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  let's say, because I'm traveling so much.
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  And the only dilemma in my mind is I love what I'm doing, but my my children are escaping from
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  my purvey.
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  Like, pretty soon, I don't like so myself down because they're not gonna slow down.
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  I'm gonna miss that entire life stage.
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  Right?
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  And and I work with and I've worked with a number of people who go, and I want to redress
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  the balance.
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  And I tend to go Well, that's great.
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  You wanna spend more time with your children, but do they wanna spend more time with you and
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  I?
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  Because you can't get that time back.
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  You might No.
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  You might do stuff to be with them.
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  But I know a fine lines too.
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  I I I'm very lucky.
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  I've got twins.
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  They're not 35.
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  And if I suddenly announced to them and said, I know you're gonna beat that.
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  I'm gonna spend more time with you.
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  I'd be really interested in what the response would be.
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  It wouldn't be next frame.
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  What's that?
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  That's what we're waiting for.
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  You know?
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  So it's, you know, those are the things that are about.
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  So that idea, and I think for a lot of senior leaders, because it's a it's It has wonderful
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  rewards.
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  It can be a really fascinating thing, but it does come with there's a width comes with it.
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  And there are choices that come with it, and there are, sacrifices that come with it.
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  And for a lot of people, they just get to the point of going This I used to get up and feel
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  excited about this.
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  It just feels as if I'm having to run-in the hamster field, and I'm not getting any
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  satisfaction from it or starting not to I think other triggers are, when it's not you decides,
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  but when they organize, you start to get messages in the organization.
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  That maybe you're not the right person, which was never the case before.
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  And I think that links to things like ageism, which we might talk about later on because
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  that's to me, it's the last discrimination that there is to speak its name.
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  I mean, people will have opinions about what age people are past or settled by date.
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  Which is totally unacceptable, and doesn't bear scientific research, you know, sort of
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  contemplation, but it's still nevertheless there.
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  And the other thing that's a trigger very often, and, I mean, people can decide to step
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  out in their needs.
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  A lot of people, it's in when they're fifty something, they start thinking about it.
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  There's a number of things about being 50 something that is worth consideration.
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  First of all, we are probably the for most people, they're nearing the top of their career
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  curve.
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  Yeah.
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  Okay.
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  So if you're nearing the top, what is it you do next day?
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  You're just gonna continue that.
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  Or whatever.
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  And you probably know enough to go, there isn't another promotion for me if that's what you're
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  interested in or whatever.
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  At the same time, you're at the at the bottom of your happiness curve, which is the the the
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  research that I've certainly read about it is that at that sort of mid fifties, we are we can
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  we are at our most likely to be unhappy.
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  But the good news is we just get happier again as we live a bit longer.
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  But at that point, so just as we're reaching the top of our careers trajectory, we're
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  hitting a low point in our our mood on that run.
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  And we, you know, we could discuss the relevance of that.
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  And and whether that's right, better research.
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  And then ages and kicks in, and we start to get messages that say, well, maybe people, you
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  know, by the time you reach the end of your fifties, maybe you are.
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  Yourself by date.
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  There is there is no sensible logic to that that I can see now.
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  If you look at, the stuff in terms of acuity, creativity, ability to work hard, physicality,
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  etcetera, etcetera.
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  There is no reason that anybody in a healthy society has passed it.
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  So I did better than So all of these things start to happen, and I think I one example of
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  it, I I was working with a woman and she was senior executive And she was struggling with a
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  really sort of naughty problem, something that was really difficult to work your way through,
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  and she was getting frustrated by it.
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  And I was was helping her.
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  And at one point, she said, I can't work this out.
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  Maybe it's just because I'm sixty 2.
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  And I went, hold on a minute.
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  Let me put my proper case, and I'll hop on here and come.
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  What what brings you to say that?
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  Right?
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  And then as he talked about it, she went, actually, I'm just I was just verbalizing the
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  messages I'm getting that women by the time they get to their late fifties are passed or
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  settled by date.
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  And then the menopause has impacts on that and stuff as well.
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  So she had created her own crisis, but it was triggered by those other things.
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  So there's multiple reasons what so, you know, but my point is pay attention to the thinking
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  that you're doing.
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  And if you're coming to the point, I need to start thinking and planning how to do this
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  well.
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  Then that's the time to start.
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  You know, you make
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  Also, sorry, Roxanne.
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  One other thing, it's also very, very helpful if you have enough sense to start making
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  investments in a pension or in other things way before that because it makes it a lot easier.
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  Absolutely.
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  Cause I think of my trajectory, so I was an executive until I and I the company was
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  changing.
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  So I would be I I was in the tumble wheat but I was busy.
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  Right?
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  So I was raising your family and I was like, oh, okay.
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  I think I wanna get out.
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  And this is me.
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  This is my internal dialogue.
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  Okay.
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  This isn't fit with where I wanna be, but I I'm gonna look.
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  I'm gonna look.
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  And then, there was one last major acquisition.
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  And I you know, when you know, but you're like, okay.
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  I'm just going.
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  And, And then I got a severance, which I'm, you know, lucky and stuff.
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  And, you know, there was lots of other things that I wanted to do, but it what it at forty
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  four years old, I was, like, in your early category.
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  I was like, okay.
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  Like, what do I wanna do when I grow up?
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  And then I thought somebody said, why don't you just work with them?
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  You know, work with a business executive coach and then figured out unluckily, I was able to
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  take that step and now we're talking 12 years out, I was able to do that transition.
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  I was, you know, coming, but I wasn't I wasn't looking at the side because I was just so busy,
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  but I can see how, you know, at that age, if you're, like, thinking, I might pass my sale,
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  like, your your your, kind of sale date, like you said, then what do you do?
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  Right?
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  Because you're thinking you're at tier level.
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  Now you don't now you don't have a job.
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  And now you're like, what do I do?
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  And luckily, there was things that I still want.
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  That I love to do and started to explore.
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  So I'm sure there's a lot of people that go through that, and I know there was a lot of
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  people at my level that went through the same thing that struggled immensely.
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  A lot of mental health and depression and because we stay connected, obviously, and our
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  professional platforms.
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  And let's talk a little bit about that, like finding I was talking about it in my new book.
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  I talked about what is my legacy imprint that I wanna leave behind.
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  And I wonder when you're dealing with these the senior executives that do well, are these ones
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  that have kind of really thought through what other things in their life that they also want
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  to experience as they're in the career.
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  Are those people having a better time through this versus the people that are kinda just work
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  driven?
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  I think as always in this, there's a spread.
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  And there are That group of senior leaders like every other population who are who are very
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  emotionally in tune with themselves and are naturally reflective and and think about why am
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  I on the planet you know, what is it I want to to be, what is it I want to have achieved, by
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  the time I'm leaving the planet.
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  So there are people who are really very well thought right.
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  It does depend on if it doesn't mean that they don't have challenges at this point of work of
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  we're gonna make it reality.
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  You've then got, at the other end, people who've been so busy being senior leaders that
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  they've never stopped to think at all about those other things.
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  I had, I was in a group of senior leaders and one of the the he was the partner in in a very
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  big, accountancy firm.
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  And, he said I went home.
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  And announced to my wife and said, darling, I'm coming home after 30 years.
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  They said, I didn't get the response I was expecting.
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  And this is good.
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  Yeah.
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  You know, and and, I'm not including all the freedoms of what she said to him.
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  And, you know, when you've been away, I've created a life for myself.
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  Don't think you're coming back into, you know, all of that sort of stuff.
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  But and he was he was lovely and light hearted the way he did it.
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  But in conversations after him, he was completely on thought through.
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  Because he had been so focused on being a partner and being successful.
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  My and it's not my job to make judgments on that, but it wasn't a different it was a
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  different agenda.
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  That that needed to be covered.
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  So people are at all sorts of of of different points.
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  And and because it's a transition, So in my experience, and the people I've worked with,
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  15% it's pretty straightforward.
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  I know what I'm doing at the moment.
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  I know when I'm gonna leave, and I know what I'm gonna do after that.
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  So the 80 per 85% it's I sort of know where I am and I I'm not quite sure when I'm gonna
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  leave.
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  And I've I've I've some ideas, but I've no idea what I'm gonna do afterwards.
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  I need to invest in the thinking around that.
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  And the, the reflection around that in order to create a way to move forward with confidence.
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  And for a I'll I'll tell you the reason why a lot of people In my experience, get stuck and
• 23:34
  don't move forward.
• 23:35
  And those are ones who end up overstaying and welcome, leaving too late.
• 23:39
  The first one is they haven't worked out their finances.
• 23:43
  I I spoke to one who happened to be an audit partner in one of the big firms.
• 23:51
  And I said to him, do you know the value of your investments?
• 23:55
  I said, do you understand?
• 23:57
  Do you understand your investments?
• 23:59
  And he said, yes.
• 24:00
  I do.
• 24:01
  I've got this a mind of 1,000,000 in consumers that are exceptionally well bet.
• 24:06
  You know, in this room, I said, that's not the question.
• 24:08
  It's, do you understand?
• 24:09
  He said, what do you mean?
• 24:10
  He said, Do you understand how that will support the lifestyle of your choice for the
• 24:16
  rest of your life?
• 24:17
  And at 55, on on the modern statistics, you have a more than 50% chance of living to 90
• 24:27
  plus.
• 24:28
  Right?
• 24:28
  If you retired 60, that's another third of your life.
• 24:31
  Do you actually understand your finances well enough?
• 24:34
  Everyone that I've asked, I've worked with about a 190 people, in this process.
• 24:41
  And every person I've asked who says, yes, I understand my financial flow through are going
• 24:46
  ahead to make to make plans to move it forward.
• 24:50
  Every single person had said, No.
• 24:52
  I don't really understand that this stuck and they keep talking about having actually done
• 24:56
  anything about it.
• 24:57
  So that's that's one of the things that that that sort of gets in the way.
• 25:01
  Another one is people facing up to the change in their identity.
• 25:07
  And I don't know if you're if in the audience that people will know the the children's
• 25:11
  character postman path, very popular in the UK, but post now he's a mailman, and it's his
• 25:17
  adventures children's adventures in the deals in England.
• 25:21
  And there's nothing about what do you call postman, Pat, when he's no longer a postman?
• 25:27
  Just Pat.
• 25:28
  Yep.
• 25:29
  What do you call as a managing director when she is no longer a managing director?
• 25:35
  And a lot of people find that a really challenge thing to even think about because
• 25:41
  it's a change of identity, and they've built a long time getting to that identity.
• 25:46
  And a number of other things as well.
• 25:48
  So it's it's it's helping people to get to the point, and I love it when people go, right, I'm
• 25:57
  now ready to plan the adventure ahead.
• 26:00
  Most professionals and certainly most senior leaders that I work with have never settled for
• 26:06
  mediocrity.
• 26:07
  Mike.
• 26:08
  Why would they start settling for mediocrity now?
• 26:10
  But, yeah, that's what I very often and that sense of going, how are you gonna make the next
• 26:16
  the last turn of your life extraordinary.
• 26:18
  What is that gonna be to get that?
• 26:20
  It's a little bit like when when you listen when I listen to people, One of the things I
• 26:25
  listen for is people are either coming into land in the arrivals hole.
• 26:33
  Which is they're bringing things to a close.
• 26:36
  For other people who are in the departure lines going Right?
• 26:39
  This is the opportunity for liberation to get and actually take off to new adventures.
• 26:45
  I love it when people move from the arrivals hall to the departure lines.
• 26:49
  Because that's where the real excitement and inspiration comes.
• 26:54
  And that's an amazing thing to think about because I think if we just think of traditional
• 26:58
  retirement, whatever that was, say, 30 years ago compared to now, is that we're finding a
• 27:04
  lot of people wanting to do that much more.
• 27:06
  Right?
• 27:07
  Like you said, with if you retire, it's, say, you know, 60 or it's 55, and then you're gonna
• 27:12
  live another 30, 30, 35 years.
• 27:14
  That's a whole other lifetime.
• 27:16
  And generally, we think of and I know with, you know, benefits consulting, the traditional kind
• 27:21
  of, we, you know, you retire and within 5 to 7 years, the trajectory hasn't been good for a
• 27:27
  lot of people that didn't figure it out because if they hadn't developed things, then they may
• 27:31
  be, you know, get sick and they, you know, they may pass away.
• 27:35
  Right?
• 27:36
  The we know that from insurance benefits consulting and how they do that trajectory.
• 27:40
  But And it's really scary.
• 27:42
  It is scary.
• 27:43
  Right?
• 27:43
  So it's about embracing that.
• 27:45
  And even me, no, I couldn't be 57 in January.
• 27:49
  And then I'm talking about all these things that I wanna do, but I find my some of my,
• 27:55
  people around me, maybe not people in the same kind of roles are thinking about slowing down.
• 28:00
  And I'm like, oh my goodness.
• 28:02
  I have this and this and this to do.
• 28:04
  So you're having diff it's like you're having,
• 28:05
  like,
• 28:05
  what like you said, you're right.
• 28:07
  Arrivals or departures.
• 28:09
  And nothing against people that want, you know, to to slow down, but sometimes you you have to
• 28:14
  find the right groups to be able to have those conversations because you know what?
• 28:19
  If you wanna stop completely at 55, that's fantastic.
• 28:23
  But what are you gonna do with that time if you do decide to retire?
• 28:27
  And if you are going to continue, how is it that you tap into, to your point, that last
• 28:33
  golden blue hairs, right,
• 28:36
  Yeah.
• 28:37
  And and the rules of the game have broken down.
• 28:42
  Thank goodness.
• 28:44
  I mean, in terms of retirement, Retirement is a relevant new concept that was introduced in
• 28:49
  Germany in 1881.
• 28:52
  At that stage, the retirement age was set at 70.
• 28:56
  But the life expectancy was much less than that.
• 29:00
  Right?
• 29:01
  So most people died anyway before they ever got to that.
• 29:04
  In the United States, the the retirement age was set at 65.
• 29:15
  And at that stage, life expectancy was 58.
• 29:19
  So again, in the year, it was done we create this retirement link, but we expect very, very
• 29:23
  few people to get there.
• 29:25
  The retirement dates has sort of stuck around 60, 65.
• 29:30
  Now as a as a recognized, I know people will do it differently, but that and yet we're living
• 29:35
  to 90 plus.
• 29:36
  So the whole thing is broken down.
• 29:38
  And if you look at the the the old career model of education career retirement, That if you
• 29:47
  look at the bit between career and retirement, there's now a bit which is post the main role
• 29:56
  that you've had and retiring, which is stopping work.
• 30:00
  And that can go on for 20 years.
• 30:01
  I'm part of that.
• 30:02
  I mean, I've been in there for 10 years and tend to go on for quite a while longer.
• 30:06
  So we do really need to rethink this both as a society, but also each of us individually and
• 30:13
  co, if I It's why I use the word step of the term stepping out rather than retiring because
• 30:19
  you step out from the the role you're doing, and you and I you're either gonna retire And
• 30:24
  what does that mean?
• 30:25
  Cause there's retiring and still working, retiring to a very rich leisure life, retiring
• 30:30
  to whatever, or I'm gonna still I'm gonna keep working.
• 30:33
  But I'm gonna work less and whatever.
• 30:35
  So it's an area that that we don't have the concepts and the words yet familiar to help
• 30:42
  help people think it through what it really means.
• 30:45
  So let's let's, you know, in your the report, that that, you're putting out.
• 30:51
  It talked about companies really getting prepared.
• 30:57
  And there was some data that came from that.
• 31:00
  So let's talk about some of the companies that you have been, have worked with, that you that
• 31:05
  have done it well for that middle subset?
• 31:08
  And what kind of things are they putting in place, or maybe what are the, what are kind of
• 31:15
  the things that they're recognizing they need to implement, and they're starting to, and what
• 31:20
  is still a struggle with with the the companies to work with?
• 31:25
  I mean, I think if if we stand back and take it from an organizational Look at it through an
• 31:31
  organizational lens and quite a long term lens.
• 31:35
  There's plenty of evidence that even large companies and and many successful companies
• 31:41
  still view, for example, a change in the chief executive or a change in the chief finance
• 31:46
  officer or a change over the they treat them as one off events.
• 31:51
  When they're actually part of an ongoing process of of people leaving and people
• 31:56
  starting, K.
• 31:58
  And again, there's pretty good evidence that it's one of the most important things that
• 32:04
  happens in an organization, the change of a senior executive affect share price,
• 32:11
  reputation, buy in from employees, etcetera, etcetera.
• 32:17
  And and and if we get and I think it's It's between 28 38 percent, I think it is, of senior
• 32:30
  level transitions or disappointments.
• 32:34
  Either they failed completely, or they don't bring what was expected.
• 32:38
  And when it that's huge.
• 32:40
  And and they re there there's one Harvard statistic that, the impact of getting
• 32:46
  transitions wrong in the top of in the top companies equates to a $1,000,000,000,000 a
• 32:53
  year, in in lost effectiveness and loss and value in whether So it's it's a, you know, it's
• 33:00
  a big thing.
• 33:01
  And yet today, I mean, and in the survey, we did the very great majority of organizations
• 33:08
  are not don't have a formal approach to enabling their senior leaders to leave well.
• 33:18
  And therefore create the space for the new leaders to arrive and to do that in an
• 33:23
  effective and seamless way.
• 33:25
  And a couple of couple of implications of that.
• 33:30
  One is that, if you're not careful you're if you pick successors, you're ripening your
• 33:39
  successors to be picked by your your competitors.
• 33:43
  Because you get them ready to take over, but you don't manage the bit of when are pee the
• 33:49
  incumbent's going to be leaving.
• 33:51
  So they're left hanging around, ready to go.
• 33:54
  And you've just ripened them for your competitor going, well, come on work with us
• 33:57
  because we've so, you know, there's a lot of times you can do it that way.
• 34:01
  And we're proposing at the moment that succession planning.
• 34:07
  It needs to be redefined.
• 34:10
  Because at the moment, I did a Google search of 20 and definitions of succession planning.
• 34:15
  K.
• 34:15
  So from you know, from Harvard through, whole range of different companies or whatever.
• 34:22
  Everyone looked in the same.
• 34:24
  It was about identifying and developing your leaders to take over.
• 34:30
  Okay?
• 34:31
  Not one of them mentioned helping the senior leaders existent to exit gracefully and well.
• 34:38
  Right.
• 34:38
  So it's a little bit like succession time that is is aimed at one side of the equation, and
• 34:44
  we're completely missing the other.
• 34:45
  As somebody said to me, it's a little bit like an athletics relay race We're concentrating on
• 34:53
  all our efforts on helping the person who's gonna receive the button.
• 34:58
  But we're not doing anything to help the person who's actually gonna hand it over.
• 35:02
  So it it just it just doesn't make any sense.
• 35:04
  So that's why our proposition is we need to have a much more formal.
• 35:09
  I've thought through approach to this and enabled people to leave well, feeling supported
• 35:16
  so they leave as advocates and ambassadors.
• 35:19
  They make sure that succession is working right and whatever.
• 35:22
  And then have the people who are ready to succeed prepared and ready to take over so you
• 35:28
  create seamless transitions.
• 35:30
  Well, at the cost That's the biggest case.
• 35:33
  Yeah.
• 35:33
  Of course.
• 35:33
  But that's costing you saying it's been done according to the the amount of
• 35:37
  $1,000,000,000,000.
• 35:38
  That's a lot of money.
• 35:40
  And if you were to address it well, like you said, and there's no one particular way to do
• 35:45
  it in reference to to planning.
• 35:46
  It depends on industry and, you know, all that things, you know, the demographics of your of
• 35:52
  your teams, those types of things.
• 35:54
  But starting to think about it.
• 35:56
  Like you said, if as much as 10 years out, which the thought of 10 years out, you know,
• 36:01
  that's a lot of people would be like, woah, that's that's really, really soon, but with a
• 36:05
  lot lot of changes that happens within companies, I would think of, you know, most of
• 36:10
  the you know, when I manage my portfolio on health and wellness, any company was in flux.
• 36:15
  75% of my portfolio was in flux at any given point.
• 36:19
  Right?
• 36:20
  So, clearly, there's there's constant change happening.
• 36:23
  So that's showing you that people need to plan.
• 36:25
  This was such a great interview that we decided to turn it into a 2 part series.
• 36:30
  Be sure to tune in next week for part 2 so you don't miss out on the amazing content.
• 36:36
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 36:42
  healthy change.
• 36:43
  Roxanne is a kino speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 36:49
  roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 36:53
  We'll see you next time.
• 36:55
  An authentic living with Roxanne.