Latest / WriterCon / Writing to Build Empathy with Carol Van Den Hande

Transcript

Writing to Build Empathy with Carol Van Den Hande · WriterCon

0:00
Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast.
0:03
Speaker 2: Clarity of your why. Writing can be tough, marketing and
0:07
Speaker 2: publishing can be tough. So knowing what is your inspiring purpose,
0:12
Speaker 2: your mission, so that that keeps you going and keeps
0:15
Speaker 2: you focused.
0:16
Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Coon, a gathering place for writers to
0:19
Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Do
0:22
Speaker 1: you have a desire to write? Every successful writer started
0:25
Speaker 1: with their first book. All it takes is determination and knowledge,
0:29
Speaker 1: and writer Con can provide that knowledge. Your hosts are
0:32
Speaker 1: number one national best selling writer William Bernhart, author of
0:35
Speaker 1: more than sixty books, including The Superman Wars, and Laura Bernhardt,
0:39
Speaker 1: Award winning author of The Wantlin File series and Shadow
0:42
Speaker 1: of the taj.
0:49
Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse Ulrich. Hey writers, thanks for joining us today.
0:53
Speaker 3: Everyone on this podcast has been really busy since the
0:58
Speaker 3: last time we recorded a podcast, right I, of course
1:02
Speaker 3: I'm getting ready doing pr prep for The Superman Wars,
1:06
Speaker 3: and yesterday literally as we record it. Yesterday I saw
1:10
Speaker 3: the first early review for The Superman Wars.
1:13
Speaker 4: And I loved it.
1:15
Speaker 3: And what a coincidence I just happened to have it here.
1:19
Speaker 3: Bernhardt uses narrative nonfiction to tell Siegel's story presenting the
1:24
Speaker 3: facts in the form of a story. This really works
1:27
Speaker 3: to put the reader into the events as they unfold.
1:32
Speaker 3: I have no modesty, obviously, but I had to share
1:35
Speaker 3: that is that cool?
1:35
Speaker 4: Or what very mean?
1:37
Speaker 5: Love?
1:38
Speaker 3: Every other reviewer may disagree from here on out, but
1:41
Speaker 3: at least I've got one so I can rest easy.
1:45
Speaker 3: And Jesse, you just got back from a big cruise,
1:47
Speaker 3: right I did.
1:48
Speaker 1: I got back from my fifth trip on the star
1:51
Speaker 1: Trek cruise.
1:53
Speaker 4: I've now been assimilated. You get a jacket or something.
1:57
Speaker 1: I got. I got a small borg mask and yeah,
2:03
Speaker 1: and a little it's called the Cruise Collective pin. And
2:06
Speaker 1: apparently now that you've been now I've been assimilated, they
2:09
Speaker 1: are like special events and merch that I'll get on
2:11
Speaker 1: future cruises. So yeah, honestly I would I'd prefer if we,
2:17
Speaker 1: like were graduating from Starfleet Academy instead of being assimilated.
2:20
Speaker 1: But you know, I get so.
2:24
Speaker 4: So that just went all that c W tem drama.
2:27
Speaker 4: I just I do that.
2:28
Speaker 1: Listen, there's some some of the actress in that show
2:30
Speaker 1: we're on. They literally wrapped on Saturday, got on a
2:33
Speaker 1: got on a like a puddle jumper to catch up
2:35
Speaker 1: to the ship. The woman who plays the cadet master,
2:38
Speaker 1: the half but the half kling on half. Jim Hadar
2:43
Speaker 1: was on there, and as well as like the sort
2:44
Speaker 1: of the lead woman who is you know, a betazoid.
2:46
Speaker 1: Those are the two, as well as Ty Newsome who's
2:49
Speaker 1: on lower Tacks and a writer on Starfleet Academy to
2:52
Speaker 1: Ship Commitment. Yeah, yeah, it was. They seem to have
2:56
Speaker 1: a great time that you know. The younger actors were
2:59
Speaker 1: a little worried. All the other guys were like, no,
3:00
Speaker 1: this is great, Like you're gonna go to a place
3:03
Speaker 1: where you're beloved.
3:06
Speaker 4: And it's true. It can't go wrong. Yeah, lots of love.
3:10
Speaker 3: Our interview today is with Carol van Denhinda. Carol is
3:14
Speaker 3: the author of four books in the increasingly inaccurate Goodbye
3:19
Speaker 3: Orchid trilogy. We teased her about this, you'll hear it later.
3:23
Speaker 4: Because now there's a fourth book. See it's a prequel.
3:25
Speaker 4: So there's four books in the trilogy. We'll call it
3:28
Speaker 4: the Goodbye Orchid series. How about that.
3:31
Speaker 3: These are lovely books filled with heartfelt emotion, intended to,
3:36
Speaker 3: among other things, increase empathy for those with disabilities. We
3:41
Speaker 3: will talk to Carol about all that and more, But
3:45
Speaker 3: first the news news story number one. Book streaming becomes
4:02
Speaker 3: a fad on Twitch. Just in case you don't know,
4:07
Speaker 3: because I didn't until I found this story. Book streaming
4:11
Speaker 3: is exactly what it sounds like someone's reading a book
4:14
Speaker 3: aloud to you on Twitch. This fad was started by
4:19
Speaker 3: Kai Sinat apologies if I'm mispronouncing your name, Kai, who
4:23
Speaker 3: was Twitch's number one streamer during marathon gameplay. Sometimes he
4:29
Speaker 3: have streams that went on for thirty days. Well he
4:33
Speaker 3: did that for a while. He dropped out for a while,
4:36
Speaker 3: then he returned to stream something else.
4:38
Speaker 4: Books he.
4:41
Speaker 3: Dived first or into self help books, reading them aloud
4:46
Speaker 3: with a twenty minute time or set. He doesn't repronounce
4:51
Speaker 3: or pronounce everything correctly, just as I don't. He takes
4:55
Speaker 3: breaks sometimes to look up words he doesn't understand. But
5:00
Speaker 3: you know, it seems very honest and very real, and
5:04
Speaker 3: he's capturing all that on the camera.
5:06
Speaker 4: He's being vulnerable.
5:07
Speaker 3: It's some people say, an honest reading journey, and they've
5:11
Speaker 3: praised him. And of course, once one person who's really
5:14
Speaker 3: popular already does something success successfully, others will follow his lead.
5:20
Speaker 4: And so we've now got all.
5:22
Speaker 3: These people on Twitch where you normally see people streaming
5:26
Speaker 3: Laura Croft or whatever. Instead they're reading books to you
5:30
Speaker 3: or this seemed like a good idea to you, Well,
5:34
Speaker 3: you know I.
5:34
Speaker 5: Love reading books out loud, and now that our kids
5:39
Speaker 5: are all grown, I don't really have a captive audience.
5:42
Speaker 4: You could get a Twitch channel.
5:43
Speaker 5: So maybe I could. Actually it does appeal, sounds exciting.
5:49
Speaker 5: The one thing that worries me about it is, you know,
5:52
Speaker 5: I get very worried about like he's talking about being
5:55
Speaker 5: open and vulnerable and just capturing even the mistakes and everything,
6:00
Speaker 5: and I do get very flustered when I stumble on
6:03
Speaker 5: things I would rather I'd probably rather just record it
6:07
Speaker 5: and go. But then again, I have stage experience, and
6:11
Speaker 5: sometimes you just have to go with what happens.
6:14
Speaker 4: And keep on.
6:17
Speaker 3: Stumbling or looking up words too much when you're reading.
6:20
Speaker 4: Just my hunch.
6:22
Speaker 3: Wouldn't be necessary, Jesse, I know you listen to audio books.
6:27
Speaker 3: You think you'd ever tune into this now.
6:30
Speaker 4: Only way I tune in.
6:31
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about doing this. This sounds fun.
6:34
Speaker 4: You and Laura are.
6:35
Speaker 1: Both going to do it, because one I do mispronounce,
6:37
Speaker 1: like the thing I learned when going from reading a books,
6:40
Speaker 1: fancy books, reading a book to listening to it is
6:43
Speaker 1: that I get all the names of people, places and
6:46
Speaker 1: things wrong. And I would like people to like and
6:50
Speaker 1: I like fighting over the fact that I am doing
6:51
Speaker 1: it wrong. I just stick to it, and so that
6:54
Speaker 1: would be fun. And also I like I I naturally
6:58
Speaker 1: as I get excited about something, especially if I'm reading
7:00
Speaker 1: it autloud, to get faster, and it'd be interesting to
7:02
Speaker 1: see if people actually.
7:03
Speaker 4: Keep up with it.
7:04
Speaker 1: And then, you know, especially if I was doing you know,
7:06
Speaker 1: some of my very long Brandon Saracen books, I'd be
7:08
Speaker 1: quitch streaming for a long time. Even if I did
7:10
Speaker 1: it and you go thirty days, Yeah, yeah, I can
7:12
Speaker 1: go very easy. So yeah, that'd be fun. I who
7:16
Speaker 1: doesn't like being read to? It is there's something beautifully
7:20
Speaker 1: nostalgic and heartfelt and warming about being read to. So yeah, Honestly,
7:27
Speaker 1: as soon as you said it, I'm like, why did
7:28
Speaker 1: it takes so long for this to happen?
7:30
Speaker 3: Yes, it because they're all playing Idea, not Larcroft, whatever
7:35
Speaker 3: video games are being played this century.
7:37
Speaker 4: But I know Halo a lot of Yeah, there you go.
7:43
Speaker 3: Well, Harry my son, Harry, you know has a Twitch
7:46
Speaker 3: channel and he does a lot of the older video games.
7:49
Speaker 4: That's a niche anyway.
7:51
Speaker 3: Okay, new story number two, Bindery Books uses I'm sorry
7:57
Speaker 3: in my notes i wrote sm influencers, which which sounds
8:01
Speaker 3: like a totally different thing.
8:02
Speaker 4: I'm talking about.
8:03
Speaker 3: Social media influencing the missing there. Yes, Bindery Books uses
8:09
Speaker 3: social media influencers to pick their books. Yes, it's exactly
8:17
Speaker 3: what it sounds like. Bindery Books, which is a relatively
8:19
Speaker 3: young company, the one founded by publishing veterans. They are
8:24
Speaker 3: using social book influencers as acquiring editors to you know,
8:30
Speaker 3: champion underrepresented authors and build reader engagement because who knows
8:35
Speaker 3: better than these influencers. So basically, they've given each of
8:39
Speaker 3: them their own imprint and say you go find books
8:43
Speaker 3: you'd like, you'd read, your followers are read, and instead
8:46
Speaker 3: of doing traditional pr things, they have the book influencers
8:51
Speaker 3: who acquire the books in the first place do it
8:53
Speaker 3: because they're the experts, right, and it seems to be
8:58
Speaker 3: working pretty darn well. They currently have twelve imprints that
9:02
Speaker 3: are helmed by each of them by a different book influencer, or,
9:07
Speaker 3: as the publishers now calling them, taste makers.
9:11
Speaker 4: Okay, either one of you. Do you follow book influencers?
9:16
Speaker 4: Does this seem like a good idea?
9:19
Speaker 5: I don't follow Annie. I don't have any trouble finding books.
9:25
Speaker 4: My niece Barvius one.
9:26
Speaker 3: Remember we've looked at It's Mandalay's something or another.
9:31
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, dreams of mandal Yes.
9:35
Speaker 3: Like in Rebecca Barbie Lorenz shout out. But that's the
9:38
Speaker 3: only book influencer I know, Jesse about you.
9:42
Speaker 4: So here's the thing.
9:43
Speaker 1: I don't know who they are, but like on my
9:44
Speaker 1: Facebook video feed when I got sucked into that for
9:46
Speaker 1: twenty minutes once a day, there's occasionally, and you know,
9:52
Speaker 1: they're usually dudes, but there's been a couple couple of
9:54
Speaker 1: women as well where they just sort of like go
9:56
Speaker 1: through lists of like fantasy series that they really like,
9:59
Speaker 1: and most of the time I know half of them
10:01
Speaker 1: and I have already read them. But every once in
10:03
Speaker 1: a while, I'm like, that one's new, I'm gonna check
10:05
Speaker 1: that one out. But I don't know who they are.
10:06
Speaker 1: I don't follow them, but I do see how this
10:08
Speaker 1: could work again, you know the whole book tok sensation.
10:10
Speaker 1: This is like monetizing and professionalizing that sort of idea,
10:15
Speaker 1: and we do. If you're not in the literary world,
10:19
Speaker 1: you do have to get recommendations from somewhere, whether it's
10:23
Speaker 1: whether it's going to Barnes and Noble and looking at covers,
10:25
Speaker 1: or talking to people you know, or listening to people
10:27
Speaker 1: who you think live a better life than you so
10:29
Speaker 1: like you know, it's even though they don't and their
10:32
Speaker 1: lives are probably actually quite miserable. You know, they're telling
10:35
Speaker 1: you this book might be good, and you know there's
10:38
Speaker 1: no harm in trying that. So I think, I don't
10:40
Speaker 1: think this is a bad idea. It's just a way
10:42
Speaker 1: of reacting to I think the market as.
10:44
Speaker 4: It is now.
10:46
Speaker 5: Yeh, you make a very fair point that we are
10:49
Speaker 5: within the literary world, and we have the opportunity to
10:53
Speaker 5: speak to so many authors and we hear about so
10:56
Speaker 5: many books. We get those recommendations already without needing to
11:02
Speaker 5: go look elsewhere. But not everybody has that available to them.
11:05
Speaker 5: So I'm definitely not knocking it. I love anything that
11:10
Speaker 5: encourages people to read more, helps connect them with books
11:13
Speaker 5: that they will enjoy.
11:15
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, I think the thing I if
11:17
Speaker 1: I understand this correctly, these social media influencers are given
11:22
Speaker 1: the ability to find authors and then get those authors
11:26
Speaker 1: signed to this publishing company. Is that how this works
11:29
Speaker 1: or yeah?
11:30
Speaker 4: I think so that's the I think that's better.
11:34
Speaker 1: Than the way social media influencers sort of sort of
11:38
Speaker 1: with a book talk model where they just like talk
11:39
Speaker 1: about books that are already out for authors who could
11:42
Speaker 1: already have like sort of their own marketing. This is
11:44
Speaker 1: the way to is a way to grow the amount
11:47
Speaker 1: of authors out there, and I find that to be
11:49
Speaker 1: positive if it works the way it's supposed to do.
11:51
Speaker 3: This time for Craft Corner, we have very good friend
11:55
Speaker 3: of writer con Betsy Koulakowski, the author of now eight
12:00
Speaker 3: books in the Veritas Codex series, the most recent being
12:07
Speaker 3: The Sultan's Stone. This time she's going to talk to
12:10
Speaker 3: you about building dread.
12:17
Speaker 1: Craft Corner.
12:19
Speaker 6: Hi, everyone, this is author Betsy Kolakowski, best selling author
12:24
Speaker 6: of the Veritas Codex perormal thriller series and the Manifest
12:27
Speaker 6: Destiny series, and I'm here with today's Craft Corner. I'm
12:31
Speaker 6: an author who writes in and along the edges of
12:33
Speaker 6: the horror genre, and I constantly struggled with how to
12:36
Speaker 6: write an antagonist in a way that keeps the reader
12:38
Speaker 6: turning the page despite their fear. It's not as easy
12:41
Speaker 6: as splashing some blood on a scene and just hoping
12:43
Speaker 6: for the best. What I've learned is that nothing keeps
12:46
Speaker 6: the pages turning more than a good, hearty dose of dread.
12:50
Speaker 6: I spent a lot of time studying the greats like
12:52
Speaker 6: Dean Koon's and Stephen King to see how they made
12:55
Speaker 6: me uncomfortable. What did they show and what did they
12:58
Speaker 6: do to make me feel anxious? And I realized something
13:00
Speaker 6: in my research is they often wait until it's almost
13:03
Speaker 6: too late to show you their monster. Who remembers the
13:06
Speaker 6: movie Jaws. The shark isn't shown every time, primarily because
13:10
Speaker 6: the mechanical shark didn't work, but that doesn't mean you
13:13
Speaker 6: don't know it's there. Instead, Steven Spielberg had to rely
13:16
Speaker 6: heavily on other unseen cues to clue the viewer into
13:19
Speaker 6: the fact that the shark is coming. These sudden, intense,
13:23
Speaker 6: unseen attacks created a paralyzing fear that still has me
13:26
Speaker 6: terrified to go in the water today. So how can
13:29
Speaker 6: a writer's accomplish the same thing. Well, here's a few tricks.
13:33
Speaker 6: First of all, make sure that your characters are someone
13:35
Speaker 6: your readers genuinely care about Readers might actually end up
13:39
Speaker 6: cheering for the villain if they don't like the character
13:41
Speaker 6: in danger, and that's not what we hope to accomplish here.
13:45
Speaker 6: Readers tend to like characters that are relatable, vulnerable, and human.
13:49
Speaker 6: They don't have to be perfect. Instead, readers can relate
13:52
Speaker 6: better if the character is flawed, because we all are.
13:55
Speaker 6: Instead of describing the monster, focus on the physical manifestation
13:59
Speaker 6: of the cycle, logical effects of terror in your characters,
14:02
Speaker 6: that sudden chill, goosebumps on the flesh, the gasping for air,
14:06
Speaker 6: the racing heart, that uncontrolled trembling, and then allow the
14:10
Speaker 6: reader's minds to fill the gaps. Too often, I only
14:13
Speaker 6: refer to the monster as that thing. It makes it
14:17
Speaker 6: something so horrible that the characters can't even find the
14:20
Speaker 6: right words within their paradigm to describe it. Seeing a
14:23
Speaker 6: relatable character's panic makes the threat feel real and imminent.
14:28
Speaker 6: Play on all the senses, writers, Can you sound and smell, hearing, taste,
14:34
Speaker 6: everything like that to create audio visual cues for the reader,
14:38
Speaker 6: and symbolism can speak volumes. In the movie Jaws, the
14:41
Speaker 6: yellow barrels signal the shark's presence and yellow as the
14:44
Speaker 6: color that creates a warning. If you see it in
14:47
Speaker 6: a book or film, keep an eye on it. Symbolics
14:51
Speaker 6: cues carry a weight that requires the reader to interpret
14:54
Speaker 6: their significance within the context of your story. It's the
14:57
Speaker 6: questions that readers want answers to that keeps them turning
15:01
Speaker 6: the page. So build suspense by slowing down time. In thrillers,
15:05
Speaker 6: we tend to write short, clip sentences to drive the action. However,
15:09
Speaker 6: when the danger is real, I like to use long,
15:11
Speaker 6: complex sentences to drag out those moments of anticipation, then
15:15
Speaker 6: switch to a short, punchy sentence when the threat finally strikes.
15:19
Speaker 6: As a reader, I hate red herrings when they're not
15:22
Speaker 6: well done or too trophy. However, as a writer, I
15:25
Speaker 6: try to use several red herring moments to make the
15:28
Speaker 6: reader expect danger that turns out to be something more innocuous.
15:32
Speaker 6: This conditions the reader into remaining on edge and making
15:36
Speaker 6: the actual encounter much more impactful. Fear is heightened when
15:40
Speaker 6: there's no chance for escape. Create anticipation by leaving your
15:45
Speaker 6: characters alone with no hope of rescue. Let the reader
15:49
Speaker 6: in on what's happening before the characters know this creates
15:52
Speaker 6: a sensation that amplifies the audience's dread. I remember when
15:57
Speaker 6: we saw Johs in the theater when I was a kid,
15:59
Speaker 6: and I remember people yelling at the screen, there's the shark.
16:02
Speaker 6: The shark is coming.
16:03
Speaker 5: Look out? How is seven?
16:05
Speaker 6: When I saw that movie, and I still remember how
16:07
Speaker 6: the audience reacted. I also like to make the unusual unsettling.
16:13
Speaker 6: There's nothing more dangerous than the familiar when it's behaving strangely.
16:17
Speaker 6: Authomonic Sneyman puts it best, Dred lives in the spaces
16:21
Speaker 6: between certainty and confusion. By writing around the monster rather
16:25
Speaker 6: than showing it, you can tap into that universal fear
16:29
Speaker 6: of the unknown. Dread should be a slow burn that
16:32
Speaker 6: starts with a bump in the dark. It's the truth
16:35
Speaker 6: your character is not ready to acknowledge. Gore is easy,
16:39
Speaker 6: Dread is hard. Dread doesn't rely on shock or gore.
16:42
Speaker 2: It plays on the.
16:43
Speaker 6: Imagination and genuine emotion.
16:46
Speaker 5: So go for the heart and let the reader squirm.
16:49
Speaker 6: Dread isn't what you show, that's.
16:51
Speaker 5: What you don't.
16:53
Speaker 3: See you all next time, Thank you if you, Betsy Kulakowski.
17:02
Speaker 3: Now let's talk to Carol Vanden Hinda, Carol Vandenhinta.
17:10
Speaker 4: Welcome to the podcast.
17:14
Speaker 2: Thanks so much.
17:14
Speaker 5: It's great to be here.
17:16
Speaker 4: So glad to have you here.
17:17
Speaker 1: All right.
17:18
Speaker 3: Traditional first question, if you could offer writers one piece
17:22
Speaker 3: of advice, what would it be?
17:26
Speaker 2: Clarity of your why. Writing can be tough, marketing and
17:31
Speaker 2: publishing can be tough. So knowing what is your inspiring purpose,
17:35
Speaker 2: your mission, so that that keeps you going and keeps
17:38
Speaker 2: you focused. And there's a very simple question. Writers can
17:42
Speaker 2: ask themselves, what is the reason I do what I
17:45
Speaker 2: do beyond the obvious profit or functional purposes. And it's
17:51
Speaker 2: a layered question to really try to get to your
17:54
Speaker 2: true why.
17:56
Speaker 4: Nice, Nice, tell.
17:59
Speaker 3: Us how, and I know I'm well aware that you
18:02
Speaker 3: do many things, but tell us how you got started writing.
18:08
Speaker 2: I started writing as a place of solace for myself
18:11
Speaker 2: during a difficult time in our family, and I was
18:14
Speaker 2: inspired by stories of wounded veterans and that's what created
18:18
Speaker 2: the impetus to craft this character, Phoenix Walker, who suffers
18:24
Speaker 2: injuries similar to that of wounded veterans and allows me
18:27
Speaker 2: to shine a light on characters with disabilities. I initially
18:31
Speaker 2: thought I was writing for myself, but when I joined
18:34
Speaker 2: a critique group and was able to bring a table
18:36
Speaker 2: full of authors to tears with the storyline and with
18:40
Speaker 2: my writing, I started to pursue the path of publication.
18:45
Speaker 5: That's very inspiring. I like how you talk about it
18:49
Speaker 5: was a source of solace for you, because my actual
18:53
Speaker 5: first book was written the same way. I actually wrote
18:56
Speaker 5: pieces of it while I was in oh our writing room,
19:00
Speaker 5: or you know, things, something that it would I could
19:03
Speaker 5: have control over, and it would and it would also
19:06
Speaker 5: kind of take me away from some of the difficulties
19:09
Speaker 5: that I was going through at the time. So is
19:13
Speaker 5: that kind of what happened with Goodbye Orchid, is that
19:17
Speaker 5: you were going through some of the same issues or
19:19
Speaker 5: you had someone that you know who was going through
19:23
Speaker 5: some issues.
19:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, there were definitely there were issues in our family
19:29
Speaker 2: with one of our sons, and writing did give me
19:32
Speaker 2: so much solace. You know what's been so rewarding since then,
19:36
Speaker 2: and you've probably found this with your writing as well.
19:39
Speaker 2: Is I love those times that readers tell me that
19:42
Speaker 2: the storytelling also brings them solace, deepens their empathy.
19:47
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
19:48
Speaker 2: They had readers tell me because of the injuries that
19:50
Speaker 2: my main character, Phoenix faces, that it has actually changed
19:54
Speaker 2: the way they think about people's disabilities. A long woman
19:58
Speaker 2: said she was on a blind date with a guy
20:00
Speaker 2: who told her that he had a prosthetic leg, and
20:04
Speaker 2: she decided in that moment not to see him again,
20:06
Speaker 2: that she couldn't deal with it. But now, after reading
20:10
Speaker 2: Good By Orchid, she said she would have made a
20:12
Speaker 2: different decision if she could go back.
20:14
Speaker 5: In time changing the world. That's the best kind of feedback. Absolutely. Yeah.
20:19
Speaker 3: On your website you talk about your work is stories
20:22
Speaker 3: for Good. I assume is this more or less what
20:26
Speaker 3: you're talking about.
20:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a tagline that I have the trademark
20:32
Speaker 2: actually stories for Good well, because I do believe storytelling
20:37
Speaker 2: can do good in the world. He puts us in
20:40
Speaker 2: other people's shoes. There are studies that say that writing
20:46
Speaker 2: is a thing that connects readers to authors in a
20:50
Speaker 2: way that's neurological. They've done MRI scans, and the same
20:54
Speaker 2: places that light up in a writer's brain when they're
20:56
Speaker 2: writing a scene are the same places that light up
20:58
Speaker 2: in a reader's brain. It is about as close as
21:01
Speaker 2: you can get to a brained brain connection. So what
21:05
Speaker 2: a lovely just to have out in the world and
21:07
Speaker 2: literature truly connects us.
21:10
Speaker 5: That's fantastic. Now you've also done a great deal of
21:15
Speaker 5: public speaking. How did you get started doing that?
21:21
Speaker 2: In my day job, I certainly do speak on behalf
21:24
Speaker 2: of the ethics of AI is actually my day job,
21:27
Speaker 2: the responsible AI and so and I've had careers in
21:31
Speaker 2: marketing and strategy and insights as well as digital transformation.
21:36
Speaker 2: And so I found when I joined the writer community
21:40
Speaker 2: that a lot of writers come for the love of
21:42
Speaker 2: the written word, but they don't realize they also need
21:45
Speaker 2: to be business people and marketers and publicity specialists. And
21:49
Speaker 2: so I started speaking at writers' conferences as a way
21:52
Speaker 2: to give back to the writer community, to teach about
21:56
Speaker 2: author brand, to teach about visual identity, to teach about marketing,
22:00
Speaker 2: and really loved connecting with writers in that way.
22:06
Speaker 4: Nice.
22:07
Speaker 3: Now I read also on your web page that you've
22:11
Speaker 3: done a lot of work for the Mars Corporation. Is
22:14
Speaker 3: that the one that you're with now or that you
22:16
Speaker 3: were referencing? And most importantly, I just want to know
22:20
Speaker 3: that if you does that mean you get Milky Ways.
22:23
Speaker 4: For life or.
22:28
Speaker 2: It is a wonderful purpose driven company in which at
22:32
Speaker 2: my office there's a vending machine every slot is free
22:36
Speaker 2: if you can pare yourself away from the vending machine
22:39
Speaker 2: full of slickers. And oh the Milky Way threw Musketeers
22:43
Speaker 2: right next to it as a freezer full of ice cream,
22:46
Speaker 2: Dove ice cream, Eminem's ice cream sandwiches, so it for life.
22:54
Speaker 4: Oh that's beautiful.
22:56
Speaker 2: These are custom eminems in the colors of my covers
22:59
Speaker 2: with my.
23:00
Speaker 5: As I recognized it, Oh wow, I love it.
23:04
Speaker 2: People who meet me at personal events will get a
23:07
Speaker 2: little something sweet.
23:09
Speaker 5: Oh sweet, little treat to go along with your book.
23:12
Speaker 5: I love it. Well, what is that where you've done?
23:16
Speaker 5: Like your marketing mark er, you've shifted into AI work
23:19
Speaker 5: at the Mars Corporation.
23:23
Speaker 2: So my career has been in digital transformation and then
23:28
Speaker 2: also once I got my MBA, I moved into marketing
23:31
Speaker 2: and I spent years marketing brands, leading brand groups on
23:37
Speaker 2: em and M's Twigs, Three Musketeers, Milky Way, Dove Chocolate
23:41
Speaker 2: in North America and in Asia. And I've also had
23:44
Speaker 2: roles in corporate strategy, insights, competitive intelligence. And as I
23:49
Speaker 2: was doing the corporate work, it led me full circle
23:52
Speaker 2: back to my initial career in digital. I was starting
23:56
Speaker 2: to govern digital transformation and as I thought about myself
24:00
Speaker 2: really is a purpose driven leader. I found this intersection
24:03
Speaker 2: of ethics in AI to be an area where I
24:05
Speaker 2: could really contribute. It's an area very interesting, fast changing,
24:10
Speaker 2: and of course, as you know, implications for the author
24:12
Speaker 2: world as well.
24:14
Speaker 5: Wow, how do you find time to write? Like You've
24:19
Speaker 5: got so much going on? Listening to that like it
24:22
Speaker 5: sounds like you stay very busy. You've earned your MBA.
24:25
Speaker 5: How do you do it?
24:28
Speaker 2: A lot of people ask that question. I have two answers. One,
24:31
Speaker 2: my debut novel, Goodbye Orchid, is dedicated to my husband,
24:35
Speaker 2: and he does so much to help me have an
24:39
Speaker 2: author life. He takes care of a lot of things
24:41
Speaker 2: around the household that he doesn't to help me be
24:44
Speaker 2: the best person I can be. But the second answer
24:47
Speaker 2: is that first place we started when I talked about
24:51
Speaker 2: the author why that's not just advice I give to
24:54
Speaker 2: other authors, but it's advice I take myself. And when
24:57
Speaker 2: I asked myself that inspiring purpose question, why do I
25:01
Speaker 2: do what I do beyond the obvious profit and functional purposes?
25:04
Speaker 2: My answer is to inspire hope and empathy for people
25:08
Speaker 2: and planet. The writing helps me do that, but also
25:11
Speaker 2: the ethics of AI and other things like volunteering on
25:16
Speaker 2: boards for nonprofits.
25:19
Speaker 5: Fantastic. When you do sit down to write, can you
25:25
Speaker 5: talk us through what your writing process is like. Are
25:28
Speaker 5: you somebody who kind of maps everything out? Do you
25:33
Speaker 5: have an outline? What does your process look like?
25:39
Speaker 2: Typically? I have a sense of the beginning and the end.
25:43
Speaker 2: So in the beginning, who are these characters, what makes
25:46
Speaker 2: them compelling, what's the conflict, what do they try to overcome,
25:50
Speaker 2: what's keeping them from overcoming it, including their own internal misconceptions,
25:54
Speaker 2: And then I have a sense of where the story's going.
25:57
Speaker 2: I don't plot everything in between, although I have tried
26:00
Speaker 2: it before, And what I find is I discover along
26:04
Speaker 2: the way, and it happens quite organically from the characters
26:08
Speaker 2: and from what's true about the characters. And I find,
26:11
Speaker 2: even if I were to plot in advance, that things
26:14
Speaker 2: would take me by surprise as I go, and that
26:17
Speaker 2: the characters find a way to tell me where they
26:20
Speaker 2: think they should be going.
26:23
Speaker 5: I find that fascinating. So you would probably categorize yourself
26:27
Speaker 5: as a pantser versus a planner, don't you think?
26:32
Speaker 2: Yes? So I would say that's more pantsing, although I
26:35
Speaker 2: certainly admire plotting and think it makes sense from a
26:39
Speaker 2: conceptual standpoint. It hasn't worked for me in a primatic
26:42
Speaker 2: way yet.
26:43
Speaker 5: That's so funny, you know. I think it just depends
26:45
Speaker 5: on how like how left brain or right brain people are.
26:49
Speaker 5: We talk to so many people, and we have some
26:52
Speaker 5: who absolutely strictly outline and have everything mapped out with
26:59
Speaker 5: the understand ending, and they give themselves the freedom to
27:03
Speaker 5: discover and adapt as things go, because as we write,
27:07
Speaker 5: as you know, we're going to find new things that
27:09
Speaker 5: we want to incorporate. And then we have some who
27:14
Speaker 5: really don't plan anything, and then the wide, wide variety
27:17
Speaker 5: in between. So I'm very, very fascinated by that. I
27:21
Speaker 5: like to ask everybody about it.
27:23
Speaker 4: M hmm.
27:25
Speaker 3: Well, Carol, you've got four books in the Goodbye Orchid
27:30
Speaker 3: trilogy right increasingly and accurately titled I know'quel What next.
27:44
Speaker 3: The daughter Katie created the graphic that we'll use with
27:52
Speaker 3: this podcast, and she texted me back and said, those
27:56
Speaker 3: covers are beautiful.
27:57
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, you should show Yeah, please feel.
28:01
Speaker 2: She said that, And there's also hidden Easter egg design
28:04
Speaker 2: details and the shattered orchids are not only on the
28:06
Speaker 2: front but on the bottom right here to shatter here
28:12
Speaker 2: to get to the darkest points of story, and then
28:14
Speaker 2: they visually come together. So there's a lot of hidden
28:16
Speaker 2: Easter egg design details and this one as well, with
28:19
Speaker 2: the sprayed edges, the floral full color interior edges, it's
28:24
Speaker 2: really funny. So I've shifted now from the original three
28:29
Speaker 2: book trilogy, which was fictional, into nonfiction. My latest is
28:34
Speaker 2: memoir or true stories told in a pistolary format, and
28:38
Speaker 2: I actually think it's allowing me to pivot genre a bit,
28:42
Speaker 2: and so I'm working on what the next concept is.
28:45
Speaker 2: I don't have a specific concept to be able to share,
28:48
Speaker 2: but I am sure that what where my heart's going
28:52
Speaker 2: to go will need to be consistent with that desire
28:55
Speaker 2: to inspire hope into empathy for people and planet, to
28:58
Speaker 2: be able to have very deep meaning in it, even
29:02
Speaker 2: while the storytelling is page turning and entertaining perfect populous Caerl.
29:09
Speaker 3: This has been a treat. Thank you so much for
29:11
Speaker 3: joining us on the podcast.
29:13
Speaker 2: Really, it's been wonderful. Nice seeing you both.
29:17
Speaker 5: Nice to see you again, Bye bye.
29:26
Speaker 4: Just a few parting words.
29:29
Speaker 3: I believe that when this is released and you are
29:32
Speaker 3: listening it to it for the first time. If you
29:34
Speaker 3: listen on the day, we will be on the writer
29:37
Speaker 3: Con Cruise. So I'm sorry too late, but you know
29:41
Speaker 3: what is coming up. The writer Con Retreat July fifteenth
29:45
Speaker 3: through nineteenth the Cane Break Resort not far from Tulsa.
29:50
Speaker 3: We take a small group of people and spend five
29:53
Speaker 3: days with them teaching, editing, interacting, critiquing, trying to give
29:59
Speaker 3: you direct one on one feedback about your books. And
30:03
Speaker 3: then of course the big event, the conference this year
30:06
Speaker 3: again in Oklahoma City at the Scurvin Hotel.
30:10
Speaker 4: It's August.
30:12
Speaker 3: No, this year, it's September fourth through seventh. That's right,
30:16
Speaker 3: It's Labor Day weekend. It always is. And I'm pretty
30:20
Speaker 3: excited about this. We have more headliners, more agents, more, more,
30:25
Speaker 3: more than we've ever had before. And it was pretty
30:28
Speaker 3: good before, but now was going to be even better. Lara,
30:32
Speaker 3: what are you thinking about this year?
30:36
Speaker 5: I want to add more badge ribbons, that is, That's
30:41
Speaker 5: what I'm talking about right now, and already starting to
30:44
Speaker 5: think about what might go into the swag bags. And
30:50
Speaker 5: I'm just excited to meet some new people. It grows
30:53
Speaker 5: every year. I was blown away with some of the
30:56
Speaker 5: talent that found us last year, and I'm very hopeful
31:00
Speaker 5: that we will not only see all of the same
31:03
Speaker 5: friends again, but meet some new ones as well.
31:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, so put that on your calendars. Writer Con
31:12
Speaker 3: is on Labor Day weekends September fourth through seventh, and
31:16
Speaker 3: you gotta learn more about it at writercon dot com.
31:19
Speaker 3: All Right, until next time, keep writing and remember you
31:24
Speaker 3: cannot fail.
31:25
Speaker 4: If you refuse to quit. See you next time.